Inside the Community-Building Power of Women in Marketing Operations

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In this episode of Ops Cast by MarketingOps.com, powered by The MO Pros, host Michael Hartmann is joined by co-hosts Mike Rizzo and Naomi Liu to explore the role of community within the Marketing Operations profession.

What does community look like for Marketing Ops professionals? Why is it more than just networking? And how do different experiences transform what people need from a professional community?

To answer these questions, four inspiring guests share their perspectives on how participation turns into meaningful connection, and why building community matters now more than ever.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• What does community mean in the context of Marketing Ops
• How local engagement supports growth and confidence
• The impact of community during moments of professional change
• How leaders foster connection, learning, and trust

Featured guests:

• Leslie Greenwood, community strategist and founder of Chief Evangelist Consulting. She helped launch the MarketingOps.com chapter leader program and focuses on turning participation into belonging.
  
  
• Alysha Khan, Director of Client Services at Intrisphere, founder of Alpaca Consulting, and Chicago chapter lead. She brings experience building momentum through local engagement.
  
  
• Penny Hill, a seasoned marketing executive who joined the community during a career transition. She brings insight into how the community supports reinvention.
  
  
• Ellie Cary, Senior Demand Gen Manager at StarTree and Dallas chapter leader. She offers insight from both learning and leadership roles within the community.

Listen in to hear how these women are shaping what community can look like across the Marketing Ops space.

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Episode Brought to You By MO Pros 
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals

Visit UTM.io and tell them the Ops Cast team sent you.

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Save 10% with code opscast10

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm marketingopscom, powered by all the mod pros out
there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying well sort of solo is.
If you're watching this, ifwe've got this out on video, you
will notice that I am not alone, but I am without my co-hosts.
Mike and Naomi are off andweren't able to make it.
But today we are talking aboutcommunity and specifically what
it means in the marketing opsworld, how it evolves, why it

(00:23):
matters more than ever.
So joining me for this allwomen panel I tried to get
Leslie to take over on this butshe wouldn't go for it are my
four guests who bring adifferent and powerful
perspective each.
So, starting with LeslieGreenwood, who's a community
strategist advisor and founderof Chief Evangelist Consulting,
she helped launch themarketingopscom chapter leader

(00:44):
program and knows what it takesto turn participation into
belonging.
Alicia Khan is the director ofclient services at Intrasphere
and founder of Alpaca Consultingand also the Chicago chapter
lead for marketingopscom.
She's seen firsthand howconsistent local engagement
builds professional momentum anddeepens expertise.
Also joining is Penny Hill, whorecently joined the community

(01:08):
as a member, while in a careertransition, and brings a
thoughtful perspective as aseasoned marketing executive,
figuring out what's next and why.
Community plays a role in that.
And finally but not least, isEllie Carey is a senior demand
gen manager at StarTree andchapter lead for Dallas, the
marketingappscom community.
Manager at StarTree and chapterlead for Dallas, the
marketingappscom community.
She's been actively involved inthe community and brings

(01:28):
experience from both sides ofthe table, both as a learner and
as a leader.
So, ladies, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, thanks for having us, yeah, hey.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, thank you, excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, I think this is going to be a lot of fun, so
why don't we start here?
I did like a tiny little bitabout each of you.
Maybe we can go round Robin,and do a little more of an intro
and talk a little bit about howyou first got connected to the
marketingopscom community.
And I'm going to direct herejust since I've got everybody.
I'm going to go with my topleft, which is Leslie.

(01:59):
So, leslie, how about you first?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, I actually met Mike oh I don't know three or
four years ago, not as long as Imet you ago, michael Hartman,
we've known each other now forfive to six years Is that right.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
And so I met Mike also through that community and
then, as I transitioned out ofbeing VP of Member Success at
that role, mike and I startedtalking and when I was able to
work with him, we engaged and Ithink it's been a year and a
half now working on communitystrategy as well as rolling out
the global chapter program and Ithink we're up to 15 to 18

(02:38):
chapters, including two overseasno three, I'm sorry we already
we just onboarded Australia andNew Zealand, so three
international chapters and it'sbeen really exciting to see the
growth of the chapter program.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
It's incredible, that's crazy.
Alicia, how about you next?

Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, so I am one of those people who has been
lurking in the marketing opscommunity Slack for literally
years and years.
At this point I am probably theperson who's like they're like
you should maybe be more engaged.
I get those messages every nowand again, but, um, I think in
the past year I've also sort oflike I've been mark in marketing

(03:16):
ops for like 10 years, wasin-house mostly decided that I
wanted to um start working formyself, hang up my own hat Now
I'm working at Industry a bit aswell and I wanted to be
actually connected to otherprofessionals in my space and
being a part of both the likeAdobe Marketo community coming

(03:37):
up in my career was soinfluential to who I am, how I
learned and all the careeropportunities I got that joining
this community was like anabsolute no brainer, because
I've I've already seen theimpact that like one community
has had on my career and I'm soexcited, especially in Chicago,
to create those opportunities,um for other marketing ops folks

(03:58):
.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Awesome, ellie, you're next on my screen.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
Ellie, you're next on my screen, yeah.
So I think kind of a similarstory to you, alicia, where I
was lurking in a marketing opsgroup, but platform-based, and I
really saw a lot of value.
And then in recent years Iended up going agency side where
I became platform agnostic.
So we were supporting HubSpot,marketo, a little bit of Pardot,

(04:26):
and so what I really lovedabout the marketing ops
community is it was veryplatform agnostic but very
strategic, where we kind of hadthis free for all, where we
could talk about differentthings, where it's not you're
limited to one platform andthat's it.
And I just really love thecommunity, I love the vibe, I
loved the content and I've beenever since I've been here.

(04:49):
So, yeah, it's good to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
All right, Penny, bring it home.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, so you know, like you said, I'm brand new to
the marketing ops community andyou know I am I actually just
recently transitioned out of mycorporate role and so you know
one thing I'm I'm looking to goout on my own with marketing ops
strategy and execution work.
And I actually met Ellie just afew months I mean not even
quite two months ago at a dinnerand that was really cool and

(05:16):
she was talking about what shewas doing with marketing ops and
it was just neat to see howintentional she was with the
Dallas Fort Worth community andit just I mean especially going
out on my own.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
I just wanted to be a part of it.
Yes, awesome.
So let's maybe let's start withLeslie.
So Leslie is the was theinstigator for this.
She had a recent post liketrying to get, I think, more
women tied to your Wednesdaywomen initiative onto podcasts,
podcasts.
So I was super like it justworked out really well for us to
be able to bring you together.
But what, um?

(05:50):
You talked a little bit aboutthe local chapter program, um,
and where it's grown to, which Ididn't even realize it was that
big.
So like, what were some, whatwas the genesis of that or
catalyst of that program?
And like, or maybe were therethings you were seeing, hearing,
whatever that made you thinkthat that was needed?
Uh, in the for the community.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
I mean, I think in general we're all craving more
in person.
Um online can take you so far,but when you meet someone in
person, I mean literally, I'lljust have to plug.
It was at a Wednesday, womendinner that Ellie and Penny met
Um, and I'm like, oh see, look,I was doing a good job for
marketing ops during my event,helping you grow, and I just,

(06:33):
you know, I know it, I know it,I feel it, I've seen it, you
know, both before and afterCOVID.
I think it's even gettinglarger in the world of AI the
more bots we can talk to in aday, the more real humans we
need to talk to to offset thebots.
And I just think that this isgoing to the in-person part is

(06:53):
going to take off even more.
And there is something aboutyou know we may I mean, I've
been to LA's marketing opsevents.
I don't know a thing aboutmarketing ops.
I know about community.
That's what I'm here for butyou know there's a bond and you

(07:14):
know a level of I don't knowinteraction and value that you
can get by being in person, andthat glue in this case could be
that you know you love Marketoand you love Pardot and I know
nothing, but we all live inDallas, love Pardot and I know
nothing, but we all live inDallas, and so that's our
connector piece and we canconnect on multiple levels, and
so that having that localpresence is super important, I
think, as part of any community.

(07:35):
So I usually try to recommendthat for sure.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
And I think, just to jump in here and to Leslie's
horn, one thing she's because Ijoined the chapter leader
program maybe like about sixmonths ago-ish, and her emphasis
has always been on like thisdoesn't have to be fancy, this
doesn't have to be like a verycomplicated thing.
I think there are definitelylike other communities and like
tech groups that are like it hasto be a very proper formal

(08:02):
event with slides and everythingand like, yes, we did like
Chicago.
Yeah, chicago had like a littleslides event today.
But our next one is literallyjust like we're going to be at a
coffee shop.
Alicia will be at a coffee shopworking.
You should come sit with me ifyou would like to come sit with
somebody and work together, andI think that's like that is such
a more relaxed and like chillervibe.

(08:23):
Like that is such a morerelaxed and like chiller vibe
and so like the barrier to entryis so much easier and less like
it's like less stressful andlike less anxiety inducing for
folks.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, I think, leslie , like your point is like, I
think I've heard variations ofsomething like we are now more
connected than ever, but wecreate, we are not really
connected, right?
And I think that's what you'retapping into.
Is that which is interesting?
Because I know, leslie, thatyou are?
You would call yourself anintrovert, right?

Speaker 2 (08:53):
So A hundred percent.
I'm an introvert.
I will go and do a do an event.
I love a conference because itjust hits all the ADD spots in
my brain, but then I, you, Iwill be in pajamas for two
straight days and not leave mybed afterwards, but I still want
that, you know, that moment ofcommunity and I want to have

(09:15):
those deep conversations thatyou can have with someone that
you can't have.
You know that you just you maynot make that relationship over
zoom with someone, um, you knowless than COVID, and you may not
make that relationship overzoom with someone, um, you know
less than COVID, and like we did, michael.
But I mean, you know, it's justI don't know.
That's that's how I feel aboutit.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, no, no, I think .
But I think even the reason Ibring it up is because I suspect
there's a lot of people who areout there who think the same
things about themselves and, youknow, would resist doing
something like a meetup.
And I think I think there's youknow I get it right there's
some fear associated with thatand everything else, and will I
say the wrong thing?
But I think if you go out there, especially in these

(09:56):
communities, I think people arereally welcoming.
So I've seen lots of headsnodding for those who are just
listening.
So, alicia, ellie, let's starthere.
Alicia, you talked about beingin the program or the leader of
the local chapter up there inChicago, and Ellie, here in the
Dallas area.
What would have been some ofthe most interesting, surprising

(10:20):
things from that experience oflike, however long it's been
Good, bad or indifferent?

Speaker 5 (10:27):
Yeah, ellie, do you want to go first?
Yeah, I mean, I think what, um,kind of to leslie's point,
people are craving live events,um, and it doesn't have to be
this snazzy event where you haveall the bells and whistles.
I mean our last event, domino'spizza and homemade wine we had
like a full house, like.
So you know, and so mad Imissed that it's okay.

(10:49):
I have a lot.
My husband makes homemade wine,so I can hook you up later if
you want.
But yeah, I guess that's myplug.
But yeah, so the people want togo to events and I think it's
it's really more about the topic.
Like our last topic was AIfocused, and so I think that
people are excited to events andI think it's really more about
the topic.
Our last topic was AI focused,and so I think that people are
excited to learn, people areexcited to show up and you don't

(11:11):
have to have this fancyactivity, but people are craving
community and they're cravingconversations real conversations
, I think.
And what I learned about Dallasis we have a lot of talent here
and I, we, you know, you know,you do, but until you get into a
room with a lot of differentpeople and see the different
perspectives, I just like ourlast session, I was so blown

(11:31):
away about the talent and thatwas great too.
What about you?

Speaker 4 (11:37):
I think for me in Chicago, I think we haven't had
a really good like the.
The Marketo user group has diedoff a little bit, the HubSpot
user group has died off a littlebit.
That's about user group hasdied off a little bit.
So I think, bringing this in,there's been a lot of energy
from especially I don't want tosay like the older folks not
older folks, that's a terribleway to put it but just like
people who've been around,they're like ah, yes, well

(11:57):
seasoned.
Yes, well seasoned that that'ssuch a better phrase that like
they're really excited.
That know, we're kind ofstepping up to fill in the void,
cause Chicago is definitely apretty big city and and I think
at least when people are justlike really excited to be able
to get out somewhere, like ourfirst event there, it was like a
food hall downtown and weliterally just grabbed a corner,

(12:18):
that was it.
We're like here, we have someballoons, we're going to be
sitting in this particularcorner.
Just come find us.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
And we have some balloons.
We're going to be sitting inthis particular corner.
Just come find us.
And that was it.
And that's because they had abirthday party for themselves.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
We did, let's just be real.
Oh yeah, that's true ForMichael.
You know what you what?
So I was born on May 21st andDeb Monkman, who is our chapter,
is my co-chapter lead, was alsoborn on May 21st.
Now, I did not know this when Ididn't know this.
Like, deb and I have workedtogether.
We've met before.
We like freelance together alittle bit, like we go a little

(12:50):
bit ways back, and when I firstthought about like oh, I need a
chapter lead, I was like, oh,deb, deb would be really good at
this.
And then we went to schedule.
The first event is when werealized we had the same
birthday.
So we're like, oh, this is liketoo fun a coincidence to like
not do something about it I loveit.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Um, that's awesome yeah and it was great.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
People like had a great time and and also like I
think all stally's point likethey just want to do something,
anything, they just want areason to get somewhere, um, and
I think.
But just like one interestingthought, especially for like
chicago as a community and Ithink this probably applies to
other ones is like the, where Ithink also becomes really
important Because Chicagosuburbs are pretty broad,

(13:31):
downtown's a whole separatebeast.
And like I think one thingwe're experimenting with is like
where do we hold things to likemake sure we get to where
people are, because, like I livetechnically in the middle of
nowhere kind of suburbs.
So our next event is likecentral suburbs.
We'll see how that does.
Our last event was downtown.
That did decently Well.

(13:52):
We're figuring out October.
So I think that's one thing Idefinitely want to play with
where our community is to makesure that we're not just doing
the same place so we see thesame people again and again.
We're sort of rotatingourselves.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
That way everybody has a chance to, you know, hit
up an event of ours yeah, I meanI think I don't know that I
actually said this direct thisdirectly to leslie when I think
she approached me about thechapter local chapters like I
think I was probably skeptical,right, that it could work.
So I'm, like I'm actually superhappy to have been wrong about
that, because I think dallas itsounds like chicago might be the

(14:26):
same way, right, people arejust spread out.
There's not like, it's not likethere's one area where all the
people are even for work, rightespecially, and traffic is
terrible and all that.
So I was like it's um, so whaty'all are doing is incredible
because, like I, like I ammissing out.
I missed out on a couple of theDallas area events and I'm glad
I've been to a few and I stillwant to try to get to as many as

(14:48):
I can, but it's an investmentand it's a lot of work.
So thank you for doing that.
Yeah, so okay.
So, penny, you are new to thecommunity, I think, probably the
last month or two maybe, butlast couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, all right.
So what was the motivation?
I know you talked about thecurrent career transition, but I
mean you were your last role.
You were interimmo and vp ofmarketing ops.
Like you've been around, youknow, assume you have a pretty
good network and connect.
You know what.
What was the driver for beingjoining a community?

Speaker 3 (15:26):
yeah, I just I knew I needed people, like I knew I
needed people obviously going tostep out on this new adventure.
And you know, I am maybe at thatage where I'm more seasoned,
right.
So I I do have lots ofexperience, but the experience
is mine and I'm talking to thesedifferent companies and there's
all these different problems,right, there's different tech
stacks and just having acommunity of marketing

(15:46):
operations professionals youknow that I can tap into to talk
about.
You know, what are you doing?
How do you look at this?
And especially with how thingsare changing with AI so quickly,
right, just to kind of to beable to to keep up and know what
other people are doing, and andfrankly, um, I do have, I do
have a lot of peers in mynetwork, right, but a lot of

(16:06):
them are more on that seniorleader, executive level and, um,
stepping into this, I will be,in some places, more of an
executioner again, and so youknow to connect with people that
are kind of nerdy, like I am,and just really love this stuff,
and so you know to connect withpeople that are kind of nerdy,
like I am, and just really lovethis stuff.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
So, yeah, that makes sense, yeah, yeah, so.
So career transitions is anobvious one for people to have
community.
Leslie, maybe you'd like you'vegot the strongest connection of
this.
How do you think about whyhaving a strong professional
community matters in thosemoments?

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Well, I will just let me just jump on my soapbox, per
your invitation, michael.
It is not just during careertransition this should be.
It is like it's like your 529plan that you set up with your
for your baby when they're sixmonths old to pay for their
college.
You should be working on yournetwork always and because what

(17:02):
I see oftentimes is that peopleare you know that don't aren't
like Penny that are like I'mgoing to go step out on my own.
It's time for me to spread mywings and I'm ready to do this
that they are looking for theirnext job.
The rug has been pulled out fromunder them and whether that's
of their doing, you know, or thecompany's doing, it happens.

(17:23):
It happens to all of us and itwill happen to all of us on this
call multiple times in the next10 years.
It's if you don't have, if youare not what I say properly
networked, it is going to besubstantially and exponentially
harder for you to get your nextjob.
Because, as AI brings you knowI talked to HR leaders and as AI

(17:44):
becomes more and more prevalent, blind applications, especially
as you get more senior do notwork.
I can talk about that for sure,and so you got to know somebody.
I mean, you have to.
You really have to knowsomebody, or know somebody that
you have enough social capitalwith, who will go step out for

(18:05):
you and say you really shouldmeet Alicia or you really should
meet Michael.
He has an exceptional skill set, but what I can tell you is
also is that he's just a goodhuman can tell you is also is
that he's just a good human.
You know what I mean.
Like, even if I can't talk toyour marketing ops skillset, if
I can go to someone that you'veasked me to and say you know
what?
He's just a really good human,and I don't give that compliment

(18:25):
lightly.
That's going to get you muchfurther than just a resume.
That's going to get autorejected from ATS and Ellie,
take it over, yeah.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
Yeah, cause I think, um, and this was the first time
in my career where I had anextended gap, and you know this
is such a I joke, it's a cocainebear of a market, because it's
just so insane.
Sorry, maybe I shouldn't saythat on a podcast, but here I am
.
So it's all good, you can evencurse if you want to, but you

(18:57):
know, I think you know thehardest thing was, yeah, I
applied to hundreds of jobs onLinkedIn.
I used AI tools, I did all thesethings and there was a shift
where no one was, you know,responding to me, and the only
place I had a lot of luckactually was the Slack
communities.
Everybody wants to help you inthe Slack communities.
Everyone wants to share jobposts of like, hey, this is an

(19:19):
opportunity and also someone whois a little shy to go up and
network in person.
I had a lot more confidencejust reaching out via Slack and
saying, hey, I saw you, youposted this role, would love to
hear more, connect if you can,and I had a lot of interviews
that way.
And so I think to your point,leslie community is really

(19:39):
important, especially whenyou're looking for your next gig
, because you really need thatin-person touch.
I feel like there's some typeof statistic out there about you
know, if you know someone andyou make a referral, people
trust it way more than reading areview or looking at a piece of
paper like a resume online.
So that's why community is soimportant.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
And Ellie, I think my story is also pretty similar to
that.
I was looking for a new roleback in August and, honestly,
every interview I got maybe onewas from a random application.
Every other one was a referralfrom somebody in my network, and
that's what I tell anybody whotalks to who's like Alicia, like
I need some resume help, I needjob interview help, and I'm
like that'll get that.

(20:21):
You like those, that they needto be good, but it's the people
you know, it's the people youneed, and I think getting in
person is that extra, it's thatextra step to like putting a
face to a name.
I still remember I went to Adobesummit this year and there was
multiple people that I met thatI was like, oh, but you look a
little different than I expectedyou to over all the Zoom calls

(20:43):
we've had.
But the rapport was just alsoso much better when you're
getting to meet people in person, and that's the vibe that I
love the most about all of ourin-person events that we have
here.
The other thing, though, that Iwanted to mention about sort of
like Leslie said something andit slipped out of my brain at
the moment, but I think theother reason that the slack

(21:04):
community, especially, is soimportant in marketing ops is
that a lot of us are like teamsof one, teams of two, and like
the ability to like send up ahelp signal or ask somebody else
about like I broke a thing,what do I do?
or like this thing isn't working, what do I do is or just event
or just yeah, yeah, or just ventlike my cmo has like clearly

(21:26):
lost his mind.
Like what?
Like help please?
Like that is so, so helpful andI think, especially as I was
coming up in the marketing ops,you know, industry, it helped me
learn so much and also made mefeel less alone when, like I did
dumb stuff and I like actuallyhad a person to go to to talk,
talk about it, and like multiplevery helpful people you know
pushed me along, um and sort ofgave me the, gave me all the

(21:50):
tips and tricks I needed.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Penny, it looked like you you were going to add.
I actually have a specificquestion for you that I'm going
to throw at you with no warningafter that.
So do you have something tothink of that you want to add to
that?

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, I was just going to talk about, you know,
other than just kind of thereferrals and just having people
in your network when you'regoing through transition.
For me it's been support, youknow, stepping out on your own
it's scary, you know, and I hada moment last week, like I was,
you know, with a you know in akind of a webinar with a group

(22:22):
of ladies in a community and itwas just really nice to get that
support and that, get that kindof encouragement, that that you
know you can do this.
And guess what?
It is scary.
It's okay to be scared, right,and you know you still do hard
things even when it's scared.
I hear that from my peers, Ihear that from people I'm close
to, right, but in some waysthey're kind of supposed to tell
you that because you're closeto them.
So it's just nice to have that,just to have that ability to

(22:46):
have that around us, I think, aswe're going through changes.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, all right, here's the curveball I'm going
to throw at you because I wasthinking about this.
So I think the perspective wewere just all sharing is as
someone seeking somethingthrough the network right, jobs,
referrals, whatever.
I'm curious if you, penny, haveused network to find people
when you were hiring or to like.

(23:09):
I know I've personally not doneso much, like, hey, I'm going
to be hiring somebody and usethe network or the community for
that, but I've definitely usedthe community to go like kind of
do background check without,like, without being as direct
about it.
So HR is probably all likeraising red flags right now.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
So yeah, I mean I'll say for sure, you know, and I
wasn't a part of the Mops Proscommunity before, so I haven't
directly used that, but I haveused my community and my network
when someone's brought to melike to see you know who they
know, just to ask about how werethey really to work with you
know, cause, I mean a resume isjust so much right, it's just a
piece of paper.
I mean, it doesn't really tellus who the whole person is, and

(23:52):
that's what we're looking for.
We want someone that's going tofit in with our teams and sync
and in all of that 13s and syncand in all of that.
So yeah, for sure, I've alwaysreached out to my community.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, I think that's the other part.
So for those people who are outthere, you know, if you're a
person who's hiring and youhaven't done that, you probably
should be, and if you are outthere, that's like just
reinforce the point right.
If you're out there searching,right, leverage your community
to make connections isabsolutely something to do.
You're out there, searching,right, leverage your community
to make connections isabsolutely something to do.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, can I give a quick tip?
Yeah, go for it.
So let's say you are going tobe hiring a marketing ops person
or you have someone.
If you're part of a community,go search their name in Slack,
see what comments they've left.
People are well known in.
If people are doing communityright, you should be known for
something.
For me inside, you know likepeople are well known in.
If people are doing communityright, you should be known for

(24:43):
something you know, like for meinside of pavilion.
If someone says I want to builda community, nine times out of
10, someone's going to tag me.
And so if you were to go search,you know, for someone or some
topic, you're going to get alist of people who you might
read through and see how youlike their responses.
Or you could, if you arelooking at a certain candidate
how do they participate?

(25:03):
What is their communicationstyle?
Do they offer to help others?
Like, there's a lot ofinformation you can get through
community as well.
So, like, whether you're hiringor job seeking or, in that case
, I just want to learn on, like,how to make a work, how to make
a sequence.
Yeah, I don't know how to dothat.
I I can make a one-stepsequence that has an email.
I don't think I'm doing thatright.

(25:24):
I think it's supposed to be aworkflow, but I just call it a
sequence because that's the onlything I know how to make.
But I could go search that inmo pros and figure it out really
simply yeah, well, I did that.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
I actually did that recently with somebody who's um
to know sort of as part of thecommunity, but not a heavy one.
But I was trying to learn alittle more, try to accelerate
learning about automation withAI, agentic stuff, whatever.
And I was like I saw thisperson had been posting a bunch
of stuff and I was like, hey,would you spend 45 minutes with
me and just kind of talk methrough what you've learned,

(25:57):
because it's obvious that you'vebeen out there experimenting
and he's super gracious, sharedeverything.
Gave me what he learned, likethis didn't work.
That worked, gave me some ideason where to go and it was super
helpful to to get that.
Um.
I have a question.
I'm sorry I'm gonna interruptone more time um that person was
a community person that youknew yeah, and I knew him other

(26:18):
ways too, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah.
Do you think a random personwould do that for you In the
community?
No, not in the community.
The answer is no.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
No, they're not.
No, I think it's much lesslikely, right?
I mean yeah, but I think if youwere asking me if it would have
been somebody else in thecommunity, even if I didn't know
them, I think that would havebeen better than a random
outreach, exactly.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's your glue, like you're part of something.
Together, they're more likelyto give you their time, you know
, and not be like, oh, anotherperson wants to pick my brain
for free kind of thing.
You know, because they knowthat you've invested in the
community.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, and I've done some of my own legwork, right.
I do think this is an importantpiece, right?
You, there's, there's a you canoverdo it a little bit, right,
where you're, you're out theresoliciting free, consulting
advice from people, right, which, by the way, will affect your
reputation over time.
That will leak out.
We all know we know who thepeople are.
Yeah, so leak out.

(27:23):
We all know, we know who thepeople are, yeah, so, um, leslie
, I have a question for you.
This is maybe more of a just ageneral networking thing, but I
think it applies to community.
I mean, one of the things Ihave heard and I'm trying to be
better about myself is this theidea of kind of, on your weekly
to-do list, right, make a planto reach out to one, two, three
people in your network on aregular, like different people
every time, just to not notasking for anything, just to

(27:43):
check in or or you know whatever.
Is that?
You nodding your head?
Yeah, like you think that's agood idea.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you can put it in your
schedule, I mean it's, it's fit.
Literally I will go through andI'll just be like, oh, someone
told me they were.
You may be having a hard day,like, hey, just you know,
thinking about you today, I hopeyour day is better than the
last time we talked.
That's 30 seconds.
I do that three times once aweek.
I've spent a minute and a halfthose non-solicited.

(28:12):
I don't want anything, I'm justchecking on you.
Things are the things that,like, will connect you and keep
you connected over time.
I have a friend he actuallywrote a book, paul Abdul out of
Toronto, a networking book, andhe does what's called a free.
He writes on his calendar it'sa calendar item called free

(28:32):
hello and he does it every weekand he just says hello to three
to five people that he hasn'ttalked to in a while every week,
just to continue the you know,continue the conversation, see
what they've been up to, etc.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
I saw something recently I can't remember where
it was probably Instagram orsomething like that where the
other part of this, I think, islike there's this, if you don't
like, kind of going back to this, like we're all connected
virtually but not really Right.
So a lot of people feel likethey're on their own and I think
there's something like doingthat also is helpful for that
person.
Right, it's like there's thisoh, there's somebody out there
who's thinking about me, caringabout me, which is, I think,
really powerful.
So, if you're not doing that,so I'm trying to do that.
I'm not very good about aboutit, but I am trying to do it

(29:19):
about about it, but I am tryingto do it.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
Put it on your calendar, make it a calendar
item.
No, and I remember readingsomething about I think it's
called like loose ties andstrong bonds, where it's um, I
think it's like the hundredpeople who know you more loosely
are more likely to recommendyou for something versus like.
So it's better to have a lot ofloose connections versus like
one or two super tightconnections.
And I think leslie's approachand your friend's approach

(29:41):
probably like help build allthose loose connections to sort
of like support all the othercareer goals that you may have.
I like offering coffee chats toanybody who follows me or
connects like hey, zero pressure, just like if you want to chat
about anything, or even justlike your favorite Netflix show,
like come, hop on a zoom withme, and it is, it is.

(30:03):
I will say I mean it is kind ofintimidating because there's
definitely days where I'm likewhat the hell am I doing?
Or like I'm not ready to hop ona zoom with a stranger.
But I've had a lot of reallygreat conversations that way,
and I think Leslie earlier likeI'm an introvert I am too, but I
think I like muster up all myenergy and then after that I lay
on the floor for a bit.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
There's a secret to that coffee chat too, alicia,
that I can help you with, and Iactually I did not make this up.
I got this from Leslie Vanettes.
She has a separate HubSpotbooking link, or whatever your
calendar of choice is, and it'sjust called one-to-one coffee
chat or whatever, and it's only15 minutes because you can.

(30:45):
You always have that extra 15minutes to extend, but if the
coffee chat stinks, you can getout of it at 15 minutes because
you have a hard stop, and it ismine is only available every
other Thursday for two hours, sothat allows me to say yes, a
lot.

Speaker 5 (30:58):
I love that Because.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
I hate saying no.
I really do Like I'm aMidwesterner.
Saying no is very hard.

Speaker 5 (31:04):
So it allows me to say yes, I'm a Midwesterner too.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Unite, yeah, so it allows me to say yes, but in a
limited capacity, in a way thatI can work into my schedule,
because, honestly, if I justsaid yes to every person that
wanted to have a coffee chatwith me, I would literally never
do work.
I would only be talking topeople.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
So like I'm suddenly like I only have one booking
link.
I need many more booking linksnow.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Oh, you need that booking link for sure 15 minutes
and you set up it's like everyother thursday, so you know from
12 to 2 on thursday, if you'rebooked, you can just like relax
because it's a no prep session.

Speaker 4 (31:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
Yeah, in some ways I do enjoythem, because I just kind of got
to like show up and like see,see what the vibe is, but, um, I
think, corralling it to aspecific time and place, I
really love this idea.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
So well, I love the idea of 15.
I too, like I just recentlyfinally set up a booking link
thing and I didn't think ofsetting up a 15 minute one, so I
like that one I mean I'll justbe dating, but not with coffee.
Guess what I'm doing afterwe're done with this speed
dating not speed dating.
Setting up the 15 minutebooking okay with limited

(32:13):
availability no no, don't get mein trouble.
Like I've been married for along time, I don't need that.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
But honestly, though, to your point about the booking
link, like if anybody's reallyserious about networking, a
booking link is like the bestinvestment you can make.
Cause it makes it so I'm like Ihate doing that scheduling dance
back and forth and it's been sonice to just be able to send
people something to be like hey,love to chat with you's my link

(32:42):
, let's find time.
Um, so even if you're like Ithink some of us have it because
we have like our own side gigsand whatnot, but even if you
don't like just pay for abooking link, it's there's some
free ones.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I'm using a free one.
I'm like I don't like I got itfrom somebody else in the
community in dallas.
One too like is zcal, which hasbeen great and it's free and it
does everything I need and Idon't need it to do a whole
bunch of stuff I'm trying toschedule across teams and all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (33:03):
So oh yeah, no, no See, I I use one Cal which I
love a lot because I can synclike a bajillion Cal, like Gmail
calendars, to it.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
So I mean like other team members, like the whole,
like idea of like round Robinassignment.
So anyway, even so, anyway, evenfree hubspot has the booking
link.
Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's soeasy, like I did it all in, like
I think I have now like sixdifferent ones.
Part of them were for thisright.
So, as leslie knows, um, yeah,okay, so let's maybe, um, I

(33:36):
think we've talked a lot about,like some big things.
It sounds like we've all gottenlot about some big things.
It sounds like we've all gottenbenefit of communities.
Is there any big stories thatany of you want to share?
If not, I would love to getyour perspective on, in
particular, why community spacesare important for women.
Hmm, well, she's got an opinionhere.

Speaker 5 (34:01):
I think that's a really important topic.
But I do have a quick storybecause I think it's important
to talk about, about thecommunity, because along with
kind of looking at people andseeing what they're saying, I
also think the community isreally great because it's kind
of that stealth mode of seeingwhat companies are doing.
I know in our community we'veseen a lot.
I've seen a lot ofconversations of like, hey,

(34:21):
we're trying to do business withthis company, what are you
seeing?
Is it working for you?
And I think I've seen a lot ofthat.
And actually I feel like youcan see a lot of industry shifts
that way.
I don't have to dive into that,but I know I had a vendor that
we were scoping out and I saw aSlack thread about that specific
vendor and how the salesprocess wasn't working or like

(34:43):
people weren't happy with thevendor.
So that's kind of my sidebar.
But women are important to talkabout.
But I also think that's kind ofan important like plug that you
really get to see behind thescenes what's going on through
feedback in the community.

Speaker 4 (35:03):
And women are important in the community.
I can.
I have very many opinions there, no, so my first job out of
college was at a financialbrokerage firm and I was maybe
the second woman working there.
The first one was like thiselderly woman who was like the
secretary, and then there waslike me, 20 something, and then
all dudes and I think that wasthe first time in my life where
it was such a glaring example oflike women need women friendly

(35:27):
space, even not even women onlyspace, just women friendly
spaces.
And having like the marketingops community, I think,
especially online, is fairlydiverse and it feels I don't
safer is feels like a weird wayto put it, because it's not like
people out there arethreatening or anything, but
there is.

(35:48):
Being a woman in the workplaceis just a fundamentally
different experience.
Right, like it is not.
My male counterparts will neverexperience some of the things
that I will, because there is alevel of authority that is
automatically given to them thatwomen have to fight for, have
to work for.
And being able to have a placewhere I can go talk to other

(36:08):
women about the stuff that'sgoing on has been so, so helpful
to my career.
Like I have one mentor who shereally talked me through how to
assess a job for like work-lifebalance, when I had first when I
first became a mom.
And then I told her, hey, Ithink my current job isn't the
right fit for me, I'm lookingfor something else.
And she's like okay, but youhave a kid.

(36:31):
We need to.
You need to really make sureyour next job is the right fit
and like here's how I, with allmy experience, have helped
assess roles and her advice likeinvaluable, absolutely
invaluable, and that's also, Ithink, in in running the Chicago
chapter.
That's the same energy I wantto bring of like it's not just
like your marketing ops problems, it is like your career

(36:53):
problems, you're like being awoman in the workplace problems.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Like this is a safe space for for all those
conversations yeah, yeah, and tokind of just go into that a
little more, I'll say you know,we were on a call earlier this
week and one of the things thatwas mentioned was men are hired
for potential and women arehired for experience, right, and
I think a lot of that.
It kind of, in some ways and II've seen this hiring for

(37:19):
executive level roles it comesfrom how women tend to come to
the table.
We do not come to the tablewith the same level of
confidence A lot of times thatour male counterparts do, and if
we do come to the table withconfidence, we kind of belittle
it Like we kind of, you know,put kind of just, it's just, we
downplay it, right, it's notreally an accomplishment.
And so one thing I see fromthese communities is just to

(37:41):
help us recognize it Cause Idon't like we don't even know
we're doing it a lot Recognizeit, overcome it and and then
kind of support each other to tocombat it and advocate for
ourselves.
And I think we're seeing thathappen now right as women are
coming together.
It just, it gives us a safeplace to kind of start doing
that us a safe place to kind ofstart doing that Of course being

(38:02):
good, good Ellie.

Speaker 5 (38:04):
I love being a hype queen in the corner and I
actually I feel like you know,leslie, we've been on calls or
coffee chats and you just likehype me and Penny, even like we
had a coffee chat recently andwe had like real talks about
things that we're going throughin our careers.
And I think you're right,you're spot through in our
careers and I think you're right, you're spot on about the
confidence.
And I think, again, the thingabout this community is this

(38:28):
isn't like in.
I think it's a safe space andit is a safe space.
This community feels very safe.
I think we've really protected.
We're not here to sell people,we're here to help and I think
that's what's important about acommunity.
That's help first, sell secondor ever, and I think that
creates a really safeenvironment and especially for

(38:49):
women, I think I'm constantlyfeeling like I'm being sold to,
or there's a catch, or I have tobe something or do something.
That's what I really love aboutthe marketing ops community,
because I feel that in here andthere.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
What I really love about the marketing ops
community because I feel that inhere and there's definitely, I
think, like the marketing opscommittee is a pretty strong,
like no assholes policy for it.
Um for sure, which helps, yes,which helps a lot to just like
we're not going to tolerate this.
This is not what this, whatthis place is for, and like and
I've seen that in action and Iwas really excited.

Speaker 5 (39:23):
So that, I think, is really refreshing too, because
it's one thing to say it, it'sanother thing to see it, which
is really important.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
I think I credit Mike for really establishing that
and holding true to it withoutbeing an asshole.
The other way right?
Yes, so he gives people maybetoo many chances in some cases.
Leslie agrees.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
He's so nice, he's too nice.
I'd have fired a whole bunch ofpeople in the community
everywhere.
But you know me, I'm a littlebit more cutthroat.
I will say that.
You know, as a communityconsultant who has worked with
numerous communities, you areprobably the lowest ego
community that I work with.
There is a very low ego and Ithink that's part of what makes

(40:08):
it safe and also levels theplaying field a little bit so
that the women on this call feelsafe in the community because
we're not having to feel to pumpourselves up to go in and say
we're not having to feel to pumpourselves up to go in and say
I've done X million dollars inrevenue and worked at this fancy
company and all this kind ofstuff.
So it does feel very low egoand you know, of course, being a

(40:38):
little bit biased.
Being the founder of a woman, acommunity for women, you know
having that place.
And then, like Ellie said onthe no assholes policy, but like
not just having people say itbut do it Like.
So last year at Mopspalooza wasthe first time I've ever seen a
dedicated women's event put onby the conference organizer.
So the marketingopscom women'sbreakfast was the first time I'd

(40:59):
ever been to a conference thathad a women's event led by the
conference and so and Mike hasbeen a huge I mean of course we
know each other, I work for him,he's been a huge supporter for
us at Wednesday.
Women we're kind of likecommunity sponsors of each other
because we just, you know, weboth get it.

(41:19):
But I really appreciated thatlast year.
You rarely see a space wherethat is just for women, built
within the conference.
That doesn't just happen on theside, that isn't put on by a
vendor, that isn't an accident,you know, or it was put on with
a lot of intention and I wassuper impressed about that and
I'm not super impressed.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
Can I ask like a side , like like a side detour
question here Sure, Sure.
What does a big ego communitylook like if we are low ego?

Speaker 1 (41:47):
I can, I can, I can give you.
I'll give you an example.
So I've been in a number ofcommunities.
I mean, that's how Leslie and Imet was through a community.
That's not the one I'm going totalk about.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Cause I don't participate in that conversation
.
I got it.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
No, no, no no, no, I know, I know, and that one for
other reasons.
It was time for me to leavethat one break, but but it was
not because of ego.
I actually still haveconnections from there that I
actually, I think are really,really great and I admire a lot
of people there.
But there was another one that,truth be told, I sort of snuck
into, like somebody added meinto this community, um, and I

(42:18):
thought I was not super active,but I was active enough where I
thought I was adding value andthings like that.
But then all of a sudden myaccess was completely revoked
with no warning, and it turnsout what was happening is they
were cutting people who hadn'thad the right kind of job titles
and so even in that one, upuntil that point I I didn't, I

(42:44):
wasn't super active.
For other reasons, right, I justdidn't think a lot of the
conversations were all thatinteresting, um, but where I
thought was appropriate, I wouldadd my thoughts and provide
help and, you know, got on callswith people and stuff like that
.
But the way it ended was I waslike, are you fucking kidding me
?
Like really, and it just likeit was like.
That to me was like now thatone is run by, um, I'll

(43:09):
generally call it uh, corporateentities, right?
I won't say who they, who theyare, um, so it's their choice,
right.
But at the same time it's likeokay, so I never had a vp title.
I've had responsibilities thatwere like a VP, but like that.
So it was like, okay, I let itgo.
But it was like I had at leasttwo or three other people who

(43:30):
were part of the community.
When I told them what happened,we're like what the fuck?
Right.
So.
So, by the way, ellie, there'slike you can curse like I'm
cause I'm way.
You can curse like I'm causeI'm.
So that's to me.
I don't know, leslie, if youhave other examples of like,
what a high ego or non low egoone is like, but that, to me, is
the first thing that came tomind.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about
.
So you're you're trying to beslick, but we all know who
you're talking about.
Um, maybe, maybe everybody elsedoesn't know, but, um, yeah, I
just think you know, I don'tknow, it's just how you can, how
you show up, how are you ableto show up?
Can I show up as Leslie messy?
Leslie, you know, can I show upin my hoodie?
And whether I have on a hoodieand whether I'm working outside

(44:12):
or actually working in an officedoes not diminish the same
expertise I had if I had on adress or I had on a suit or I
actually put on makeup that day.
You know what I mean.
It's like being able to come asyou are, to be your whole self
and be recognized as your wholeself.
And I think that's what Ellieand Penny were alluding to in

(44:34):
their community conversation,that it went beyond.
They didn't just talk abouttoggles and HubSpot or marketing
ops strategy.
They talked about somethingbeyond the person behind the
title, the person behind whatthey do in life, and that is
really the really is the gluethat will hold, you know, a

(44:55):
community together, and beingable to make a space that that
is approachable is a real art.
I will say, of the communitiesthat I work with, a few have
gotten there.
Some have gotten there overrocky bumps, some have been
there and lost it.
It is a very hard place to getto and it's a very hard place to

(45:19):
stay, and I think on the globallevel, with 10,000 people in a
community, you'll never achievethat.
But that's why these localgroups are so important, because
you can achieve that with 20 or30 or 50 people or 100 people,
and so I think that's why thechapter program at Marketing Ops
is so important, the women'sbreakfast at Mopspalooza is so

(45:42):
important and so that's just.
Sorry, I'm a little biased.
I do actually, even though Iknow nothing about marketing ops
, I really like you.
I'm trying to go to Mopspalooza, even though, again.
I know nothing about what youtalk about.
I just want to come talk.
I just want to come talk to allof you.
I just want to give you a hugyeah, please come to the.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
Vast Plaza.
We'll see.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
We'll see I'm working on it.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, I mean, some of this to me reminds me of why I
think coaches and mentors are soimportant, right, because it's
or just I think I can't rememberif it was Alicia Somebody
talked about the circle of 100people.
The ones that are closest toyou are actually the least
likely to give you the tell youthe stuff you need to hear.

(46:22):
Right, because they don't want,like they are so close to you,
they don't want to damage therelationship, right, and so I
think having, like that's thebeauty of having this kind of
network is that you've gotpeople who you may become close
over time.
Right, but it's a differentlevel and if, if it's, yeah, so
I mean I think that's reallypowerful.

(46:42):
And if people don't haven't hadthat experience, right, if
they're lucky enough to have hada course that people are truly
honest with them in their life,then they're, they should
consider themselves lucky.
But I think a lot of people overtime lose that Right, and it
becomes family.
You know, if it's just family,right, and it's like certainly

(47:04):
not going to get what you needto hear unless you just happen
to have a really stellar familytype of relationship, because
that's also unusual, um, anyway,off my soapbox now, but, um,
okay, so leslie, people joincommunity like penny and others,
right, and they get in therelike, oh so, like what do I do
now?
Like I'm now a member, likewhat do you suggest?

(47:27):
How do they start to getengaged?

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Well, I would say every member, every community
that I work with, has an introchannel.
First thing you do is you goput an intro in, because, I mean
, I still, in a big communitythat I'm in, I read the intro
channel at least once a week.
I want to find out who's likeme, who's doing things that are
interesting.
I connect with a lot of the newmembers and so it's like a

(47:51):
hundred percent introduceyourself, a hundred percent,
read up 2020 intros.
Connect with a couple of people, leave a couple of comments.
Um, the biggest thing I alwaystell people is that no one can
help you if they don't know whoyou are, which means if you're
not giving away your knowledgefor free and you're not
participating when it's yourtime of need whatever that need

(48:11):
is and whether that's just likeI need a, how do I unfix the
mass email that I just sent, orwhatever no one's going to help
you because they don't know whoyou are.
Dissent or whatever.
No one's going to help youbecause they don't know who you
are.
So, if you are not at leastvisible in some respect, you
will never get the most out ofyour community experience.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
What you put into it, you get out of.
It is what you're saying,actually what you put into it.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
I think I've gotten tenfold out Fair enough.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
But if you don't put anything in multiplier of zero,
the multiplier is still zero.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, like value will never land in your lap.
On this, you have to putsomething in.
People have to know who you are.
You have to give away.
You know, give away all yoursecrets.
Guess what?
They're not secrets, we allhave them.
And and the thing is, once yougive away your secret, people
are like, oh, that's great, butI never want to do that.
Can you do that for me?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Okay, okay.
So kind of in the same vein,alicia Ellie, what's something
that along the way, has helpedyou really feel like you're more
connected?
I mean, obviously you're localchapter leaders, but beyond that
, more connected.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Uh, I mean obviously your local chapter leaders.
But beyond that, actually elliehas a very important emergency
phone call she has to take, sowe're gonna let her go oh okay,
alicia can take that call.
Take that answer first allright, ellie.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
Well, I will definitely see you around.
Um, okay, in terms of thingsthat help help me just feel
connected with folks in thecommunity, was that the question
?
Okay, I think it's it's.
It's kind of what Leslie wassaying is like saying hi to
people, is reaching out to themhey, I exist.
And also, to her point, beingreally generous with your

(49:59):
knowledge.
Like I am a loom fiend.
I send looms to so many people,I do a lot of resume reviews
and it's that generosity.
And also like finding a low liftlevel for you, right, looms are
easy for me, so I do looms Ifyou need to find, like, what is
your level of easy?

(50:19):
And sort of lean into that,right.
Because that way, to leslie'spoint about like I find this
message and I do it for 30seconds and that's it.
That's like my commitment.
It's easy for her.
She knocks it out.
I do looms because that'sreally easy for me to just like
crack something open, hit therecord button, talk, talk, talk.
Point point done, send them thelink.
Like here you go if you want totalk some more here's.

(50:41):
Like here's my booking link.
And also, like I feel like itsharpens my own ideas right, the
back and forth of seeing whatpeople are up to.
I get smarter along the way andthen that sort of helps me be
smarter for other people.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
So I'm curious, like the idea of Loom stuff I've had
a couple couple people do likevideo messages through linkedin
or other other things and likeI've always like, oh I wonder
how well those go.
Like would I really want to dothat?
Like were you scared aboutdoing that?
Like what would that be like?

Speaker 4 (51:13):
actually I don't turn my camera on for those ah I
just like I'm sharing my screen,right, I share my screen and
then I'm usually talking throughwhatever'm sharing my screen,
right, I share my screen andthen I'm usually talking through
whatever is on my screen and mycameras off, because usually
I'm like in my jammies and Idon't want to like for a random
stranger.
But most of the time, most ofthe stuff we're talking about in
the marketing ops community youneed a screen share, like you

(51:35):
need to like, or maybe I seeOkay, so you're talking about
like somebody had asked aquestion, so you're sending
something like here's what Iwould do, here's what I would
have done.
Let me like open up an instancethat I have.
I'll do a quick like show andtell or like I'm also.
I've also literally just likeopened up like a google doc and
started typing in it as I'mtalking through, to like sketch

(51:55):
an outline for somebody of likewhatever it is.
Um, because I'm the person that, like, if I had a whiteboard,
I'd be writing on the whiteboardall the time.
So instead, I.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
I'm looking at leslie's background and see the
whiteboard.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
I'm very jealous yes, so I like kind of use looms in
a very similar way that's reallyinteresting.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Um, yeah, I mean it can.
Again, like I think it's thereason I asked the fear question
is I think someone alluded tothis before right, it can be
scary to put yourself out thereon some of these things and like
I'm like I get shit about thisall the time because I'm like I
hate the word fearless, becauseI like nobody's truly fearless,
right, like what, if they are,they're just not very bright.

(52:40):
Right, they'll walk up to a,you know, walk up to a bear and
wonder why mauled them later,right, but like, so there's.
But like courage, I'm a realbig fan of right.
So like, doing somethingdespite your fear is what I like
I think is the better way ofthinking about it, because it
tells you that you can overcomethe fear.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
Right, fear can paralyze, otherwise, yes, I
remember reading somewhere aboutlike the 30 seconds of courage
rule where, like you say, screwit for 30 seconds and do the
thing you're afraid of doing,and like I think in marketing
office maybe you need a littlebit more, like five minutes of
courage.
That's kind of it right.
Like you're not, we're notasking you to do this stuff out

(53:18):
of your comfort zone day in, dayout.
We're just saying, like, takefive minutes, do something a
little scary and then you can goback to being whoever you are
normally.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, I just want to add one caveat here.
I mean, obviously this is Imean, we are just talking about
my like love language.
I could do this all day.
I love this kind of stuff Iused.
I don't like to go to areas orgroups that I don't know anybody
, so I do like to have one atleast loose connection somewhere
in the room.
So if you're listening to thispodcast or watching this podcast

(53:49):
and think I could never do that, there are born networkers.
Yes, most of us have been madenetworkers, have practiced.
It is an art, it is a skill.
You can't read about it, youhave to go to it.
I mean, I think, if I remembercorrectly, penny might have said
she didn't really want to cometo our dinner, um, but she came

(54:13):
anyway, um, and so you know, Imean it's just like don't think
this is how you.
This is not the starting point.
You don't start here.
You start some wherever you are, and then just slowly, just do
it, you know, and start to talkmore and connect more.
And if you have a conversationwith someone online or in person

(54:36):
, follow it up with a LinkedInDM, follow it up with a Slack DM
, like that's step two, and youknow you can do that, and so I
just I don't want people to feellike this is overwhelming or
that they couldn't do this, justbecause we're all like, oh,
super networkers, give me acommunity, I want to go all the
time.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
I'm so glad go ahead.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
Sorry, the bring a friend thing is so crucial,
especially for all our in-personevents.
I don't think I told you this,leslie, but I literally
scheduled September's our coffeechat, our coffee session,
around a marketing op, like oneof my friends marketing ops,
friends schedule.
I was like, listen, I have todo an event.
You tell me when you're free tocome hang out with me somewhere

(55:16):
at a coffee shop and we're justgonna invite other people to
our hangout and she's like game,I'm done, like I'm in and
that's it.
That's like literally whateverworks whatever works, she will
have a friend there.
I will have a friend and otherpeople can come and join us well
, like so what I was going tosay.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Leslie, I'm so glad you didn't use the term soft
skills, right, which I think alot of these things are
considered called soft skills,and I'm like they're just skills
, right and just like any skillpeople are.
Some people are more naturallygifted than others, but they can
.
Everyone can become competentif they put some effort into it,
and I think that's one thingthat I've learned over the years

(55:52):
.
That often puts people in thatfearful place, right, oh, I'm
not good at that, I'm notwhatever, so so, anyway, let's
get one last question and thenwe're going to probably wrap up
here.
Um, in this free penny, I thinkas not only as a new member,
but also as someone who's beenin a senior role like um, what

(56:14):
do you like?
I've seen mixed things fromcommunities for senior level
people.
I alluded to the one I was inand got booted from, but I mean,
I think I see mixed things fromthere, like what's your
perspective on how communitiesare serving senior leaders as
well?

Speaker 3 (56:36):
places for senior leaders in communities.
And you know, I don't know thatthat's necessarily all about
title, because you know, likeyou were saying, maybe you don't
have a VP title but you've donethat role right, you've had
those responsibilities.
Because there is a differencein what we're dealing with,
whether if you're just kind of apractitioner, an executioner,
or if you're running thestrategy and you're trying to

(56:56):
get buy-in and you're talking tothe, you know the board.
You know there's just adifference in what you're
dealing with.
So I think that's reallyimportant and I also think it's
good if communities can helpfacilitate, you know, especially
with being the age I am,mentorship, you know, as I look,
I mean I know I didn't have thewomen leaders early in my

(57:16):
career to help guide me right,it was a different world back
then.
I was not taught like healthyboundaries, how do I manage all
this?
I mean it was just different.
And now, you know, at this kindof at this stage in my career,
you really want to lean in topeople starting out in their
careers and help.
I know at least I do.
I have some, you know my peersthat do, and so some of the

(57:37):
communities helping tofacilitate some of that, I think
is helpful as well.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yeah, I think I've heard this multiple places where
I think, in particular in thecontext of CEOs, who very often
feel like they have nobody to goto Because the concern that
their direct reports are goingto be yes people, their direct
reports are going to be yespeople, right, yeah, it's hard

(58:02):
to.
If you've not been in that kindof role, it's hard to
understand how that couldpossibly be the case, but it's
definitely a thing that I'veseen.
This has been a greatconversation.
I'm so glad we could pull thistogether.
Leslie, thank you fororganizing it.
Sorry, ellie couldn't stay on.
Penny Ash, alicia, thank you somuch.
It's been a lot of fun.

(58:24):
I've enjoyed it.
Normally, I would ask everyoneto say where people can connect
with you.
I'm going to say probably themarketingopscom community number
one, and then LinkedIn.
I heard that, so I'm going toguess those two.
If there's anything else, wecan share that with show notes

(58:46):
or something later.
But, um, again, thank you somuch for doing this.
I know it was pulled togetherfairly quickly, which is, um,
like a huge shout out, becausethat is not an easy thing to do
to manage and juggle scheduleslike that.
So appreciate it.
So, with that, thanks also toour, our listeners and
supporters.
Uh, if, uh, you have an ideafor a guest or a topic, or you
want to be a guest because we dotake all comers then reach out

(59:08):
to Mike, naomi or me and we'd behappy to talk to you about that
and get things rolling Untilnext time.
Bye, everybody, yeah.