Learning how to Learn with Scott MacGregor

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:02):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
marketing ops.com and powered bythe MO Pros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann.
Joined today by, uh, it's asecond one in a row with just a
single co-host.
This time it's the other one,Mike Rizzo.
Mike.
Hey.
Good to have you back.

Mike Rizzo (00:18):
I'm here.

Sorry I missed the last one.
That's all right.
It was good.
No, I, I think I told Naomi Iwas like, I, she and I haven't
done a couple, many of thosewhere it was just the two of us,
and so it was kind of fun to dothat.
We definitely left your singingin.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well, I figured you would.

Mike Rizzo (00:37):
Uh, Amanda, my wife, for the listeners out there was.
Hartmannn sang in this one.
Yeah.
I was like,

what?
Just the two of us.
I was like, please

Mike Rizzo (00:45):
tell me, show me.
Let me hear this.

Yeah.
So definitely left it in Yeah.
So I, I think, I think our guesttoday will, could enjoy that.
I, I feel like he's probably inthe same era as me that
recognizes that song too.
So let's get to it.
So joining us today, ScottMcGregor.
To talk about learning how tolearn.
This is like, this is a topic Ilove just in general.
Um, I actually heard there's aterm for this that I've learned

(01:09):
over the last couple years, FilaMath, which is interesting.
I always like words like that.
Um, anyway, Scott is the founderof CXM Consulting Canada, a
marketing technology and revenueoperations consulting firm.
Uh, during his career, Scott hashad multiple leadership
positions in and around revenue,operations and marketing, and
kind of related technologies.
He has also been in marketingand internet marketing roles.

(01:31):
So Scott, welcome and thanks forjoining us.
Thanks

Scott MacGregor (01:35):
for having me, Michael.
Appreciate it.
And, uh, I'll, I will go backand check.
I, I do need to see that, uh,that singing, so I'll find

that Yeah, it's, the good news is if you
don't wanna listen to the wholeepisode, it's early on.
I could tell you that.
Okay.

We should be singing.
Sounds good.

Mike Rizzo (01:51):
No, no.
It's like way at the end.
You, but you have

to listen to the whole thing.
No, I'm just kidding.
As a total aside.
Right.
So this, this is the kind ofthing that, uh, my, you know, 20
something year old selfwould've.
Been absolutely agh that hadactually made it out into public
domain.
And I think there's somethingabout having had kids where you
just learn to go like.
I'm just going like, I'm gonnado the stuff that is, and just,

(02:15):
it's gonna be what it is, right.
So, mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Mike Rizzo (02:17):
Totally.

You'll pray.
That's good.
Nice meeting

Mike Rizzo (02:21):
Mike.
And Yeah, nice to meet you,Scott.
I'm glad you could join us andI'm looking forward to, um,
talking about learning to learn,actually.
Mm-hmm.
most, most notably because itcame up with, uh, another CEO
that I've been talking torecently.
Ah, and.
Like, like literally within thelast two weeks.
Um, the, their sort of brandethos is about learning.

(02:42):
And not just like the LMSconcept, but like every version
of learning at the end of theday is, at least in this
gentleman's mind, and we'llprobably unpack it later, is
like, look, your business istrying to tell you something and
there's a lot of data there, andso how do you, how do you get
there?
Right?
And that's learning at the endof the day.
It's sort of a punchline, butI'm, yeah.
I'm super excited to see whatyou have to share on learning

(03:04):
about learning too.

Yeah, so I think it's gonna be, this is
gonna be a fun one, but, um, so.
One of the things that, youknow, Scott, we, uh, we like to
do is hear about people'scareers.
And I I, I kind of in Yeah.
Made a little punch.
I tried to, when I said you werein internet marketing, cuz um,
the last, like I, you're theonly other person I've certainly
that we've had as a guest, butin a long time that I've seen

(03:27):
internet marketing on their,their background.
Mm-hmm.
Cuz I had that at one point andI like to think of that as like,
that was like a, an earlyversion of what marketing
operat.
Now is in some ways mm-hmm.
Um, but why don't we startthere?
Like, why don't you just give ussome Yeah.
Highlights of your career.
Um, I'm always curious to see ifthere were like moments in your

(03:48):
career that were pivotal, right.
You know, took, could have goneright.
Could have gone right.
Or if there were people thatwere sort of had an influence or
maybe still have an influence.

Yeah, I'm, I mean, it's interesting that you,
you, when, when I hear that I'm,I'm, I'm not offended, um, it
does.
I've been in it a while.
Um, and it's okay.
Um, it, you know, to, to go backto the sort of very beginnings
for me in, in this, in thisspace, really it's to go back
into I gga the SEO and, and webdevelopment world.

(04:18):
And that's where I.
I think I first becameinterested in, I would call it
maybe the technical side of thehouse on the, in terms of
marketing, um, and found myselfgravitating into that, into that
area.
It was a, it was natural for me.
It was an area that I learnedwell.
Um, and, uh, it was later as I,as it built through my career.
So I started off.
In the agency world working sortof the SEO piece.

(04:40):
It was later working more, uh,client side and and hand, you
know, being handed over the, thefull go-to market stack and
running Salesforce and Marketoand all the associated tools
that, that I, that I think thenext pivot, you know, and the
career move to, um, you know,sort of work.
Coming, stepping outside of the,you know, sort of serving the
marketing team to working acrossa whole org, right?

(05:02):
And, and starting to really workwith sales, CS, all the
different team members.
And there was lots of, uh, goodpeople like leaders that, that
put me in those positions overthe years.
Uh, Lori, uh, ISER is one ofthem, number of them that just,
you know, saw the potential and,and gave me an opportunity to
work into those, into thoseroles and report, um, you know,
report up into the C level onthat sort of area as.

(05:25):
Run the, run the, uh,technology.
So I mean, that's a, that's asummary of like 20 years of, of,
of it.
But that's probably as deep as,you know, as, as sort of that is
relevant to the, to here, butyeah.

Yeah, I think the, the idea of like, uh, it
sounds like what you described lis Laurie, right?
Is what you said was like asponsor.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes.
Is I was just, uh, while I wasdriving kids around today, I
listened.
Are you, if you're familiar withAdam Grant?
At, uh, uh, he is at theUniversity of Pennsylvania
Business School.
Anyway, he's a well-knownauthor, psychologist, like an,

(06:00):
uh, behavioral psychologist, Ithink.
Anyway, he, his podcast wasinteresting and the episode.
that I was listening to todayhad to do, had somebody on who
was talking about the, the valueof mentors and sponsors.
And I'd never really, right,like mentorship is actually
something I think I'm fairlyfamiliar with.
I've heard of sponsorship, but Inever, I don't think of them
together.
So it was really interesting.

(06:21):
And so, um, probably part of.
Why it was top of mind.
I wanted to get your, your takeon that.
So

yeah, I've been fortunate there.
You know, it's been a number of,you know, uh, leaders throughout
it, you know, throughout mycareer that have, that have, uh,
been able to kind of sponsor methrough, or, you know, and, and
yeah, and give me roles ofincreasing, you know,

importance I guess.
Yeah.
It's fantastic.
Um, well, let's, you know, let'sget into this.
So one of the things you and Italked about when we.
I'm thinking about what to talkabout on this episode was
different ideas on how marketingops or revenue ops teams can
collaborate with, you know,whether it's with each other
across parts of that team oracross marketing or others.

(07:03):
And I'm, you know, I'minterested in yours, but you
brought up one, um, the GoogleSprint methodology, which I
hadn't heard about.
I actually had to go researchthis last night and, um, uh,
yeah, yeah, it was, I I wasreally fascinated.
Like it's, it looks like.
sort of a, a, a variant of acouple of different approaches

(07:23):
anyway.
Mm-hmm.
like, tell me like what yourthoughts are on, you know, how
could that apply to what thefolks who are our listeners or
our audience are mm-hmm.
you know, might be doing and howthat might help them in their
day-to-day.

Yeah.
Well, you know, I think thefirst thing that started is, my
experience with it was I wasintroduced, uh, really to the
methodology through, uh, role atan agency.
So it was a little bit outsideof, uh, you know, some of the
core pieces.
It was more on the softwaredevelopment and, and business
ideation side of things.
Um, but what, what immediatelystruck me from the process was

(07:58):
just, It, it showed that, youknow, as we often talk about
meetings are like fundamentallybroken.
Um, and that, you know, thetalking stick version of
meetings where, you know, theloudest room in the, or the
loudest voice in the room or,you know, this, this piece where
there's just not a lot ofreally, um, Good process
happening.
And I think that whether it's,you know, this methodology, I, I

(08:20):
mean, I really like parts of it.
I mean, it's a bit modified forthe, for the role.
And I can talk to that a littlebit, but I think it's just the
idea that, you know, you thinkabout how you do and what, and
rather than just doing it, youknow, and as, as a operations
professionals, you know, I thinkwe're, we tend to be more
technical.
Maybe we're a little morefocused on kind of the.
Um, and not as much on the how.

(08:41):
And I think this was a realopportunity for me, kind of an
eye-opening opportunity to seehow different people can come
into this process and, um, feel,heard, have their ideas be
incorporated, and, and thenultimately be more successful in
whatever you're sort of buildingat the end of it.
Uh, in terms of, uh, making surethat all those stakeholders, as

(09:03):
we know in our roles, requireeverybody to kind of do their
part and, and not once they feelthat they're involved and
engaged, then you know, these,the, the likelihood is not much
higher.
So I was just really impressedwith the process.
How I used it in a, in a oneparticular sort of exercise was
in a revenue operations kind ofrole.

(09:23):
Where we looked acrosstransition.
So you can look at everytransition from the cust across
the customer cycle as having aprocess related to it.
And rather than just kind ofgoing out and sending emails and
finding out, you know, whatpeople need, um, you know,
really sending the time apart touse some of the tools that you
get from a design sprint, uh,time boxing, heat mapping, all

(09:44):
these kind of cool, you know,sort of different versions.
You, you, you can adapt it.
I did, um, for whatever need.
and, uh, to, to, so to map outand really uncover insights and
get, get everything you need toget, to get those transitions as
tight as possible so you canreally, you know, whether it's,
you know, sort of the marketingto sales handoff or you know,
even to accounting from, uh,close one, all those kind of

(10:06):
different ones.
They all have differentstakeholders, different people
who have ideas who want to beheard.
And, and can bring, you know,some, something to the process.
And, and I found it was really,uh, uh, really interesting
process for doing.
But I think however you do it,um, just thinking about how you
do it, you know, whatever you'redoing, sorry, how you do it.
And, and that's what I likedabout the process.

Yeah, I've, I've found it really interesting
so far.
Our listeners, if you haven'theard of it, I'd encourage you
to go look it up.
I, I'm, my mind was alreadyspinning cuz we've got, Sort of
projects that I'm going on withmy current role.
And I thought what wasinteresting to me is it felt
like it's very much gearedtowards, um, product development
in, in a particular tech.
Mm-hmm.
Right.

(10:48):
Uh, at the same time, I thinkwe've ha, I think we've even
talked about this within.
some of one of our, at least oneof our episodes here on the
podcast about how to thinkabout, um, marketing op, sort of
treating the evolution ofparticularly the tech stack,
right.
As, as a product and havingmm-hmm.
and I, so I think there might bea place for that.
And it makes, it, makes, makes alot of sense.

(11:09):
And then, Just your point aboutlike, meetings are broken.
I hadn't heard about the talkstick in forever.
What a stupid idea that was Um,

it's sorry to anybody who's using Talking
Sticks, but, uh, I'm,

I'm not sorry.
It's still a stupid idea.

Okay, good.

Mike Rizzo (11:27):
Yeah, we can remove that from our vernacular.
Yeah.
Okay.

That's very good.
It feels like,
I'll

let you get the comments on that one.
It feels like elementary school.
Um, yeah.
So, yeah.
Right.
Uh, no, but I think it's, it'sfascinating this, like, what,
what you could do with this justto improve meetings is picking
pieces of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I, I, meaning you can modify it too.

Mike Rizzo (11:46):
I was just gonna say, I think, um, You know, we
talked, I was just on with, uh,mark Serkin, uh, who's over at
Third Door Media.
Uh, we were just catching up.
It's been a while, and one ofthe things we talked about is
just, you know, How a lot ofmarketing teams over the years
will make a go at things likeAgile or Scrum or whatever.

(12:10):
And so this, this certainlyrings of like all of that sort
of methodology, right?
Um, and, and how you choose toadapt that.
And, you know, I, I don't wantto like totally speak for Mark
on this one, but he and I bothaligned very much on.
Just how difficult agile reallyis for a marketing team, like
mm-hmm.
and, and, and where I came from.

(12:30):
So now removing his opinion, butgiving it more mine.
Where I came from on this ideais like in truth, marketers are
constantly adapting to changeand Agile was meant to help with
that quick realignment and, andat least my understanding of it.
So forgive me for all those thatare agile experts and are gonna
come, like, have.

(12:52):
you know, behind

for this one.
But yeah, here come the agilepolice

Mike Rizzo (12:55):
here come the Agile police.
But my understanding of it isthat you are meant to be able to
quickly adjust to some changingpriority for, for more or less.
Right.
And um, the reality is, is thatyou're doing that constantly in
marketing and it's like, Addingin a layer of, oh, I have to go
now, readjust the board andchange the assignments and the
scores and the cards and theswim lanes and the conbon and

(13:18):
all that stuff.
Adding in an extra layer of, ofmanaging that chaos is actually
harder than just just setting upa plan and saying like, look, at
the end of the day, if we knowthat we need to send 50 emails
this month or whatever your goalis, right this quarter, right?
Mm-hmm.
as a marketing team, and wewanna host three webinars and we

(13:38):
want to get 150 social posts outall around this topic.
go.
We, we fundamentally, we realizelike it's gonna, there's gonna
be a lot of

stuff in between marketers, marketers
tend to, marketers tend to likewhat I call the Nike
methodology.
Just do it.
Just do it.

Mike Rizzo (13:54):
right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, but like that, but you'regoing to have to readjust your
priorities every single day.
And, and so I'm interested in tolike, unpack more of like how
this methodology has helped youin meeting.
keep fo, keep focused.
Um, you know, and, and just keepgoing on this cuz like, I think
we all struggle with it everysingle day.

(14:16):
Our community's, uh, Amaramm-hmm.
and our community's gonna run aworkshop around this in the next
couple weeks.
I know this episode will airand, you know, that may have
already happened, but, but it,it's just illustrating the point
that it's happening.
And Ian Shields, just yesterdayon my post on LinkedIn, said his
takeaway from some of the stateof the Mopro research was that
at the end of the day, uh,marketing ops people are running

(14:38):
a.
Right.
And so it screams exactly likewhat Hartmann was saying, right?
Yeah.
Like the data is showing us thatwe're sort of running a product.
It's just lots of

products.
right?
Yeah.
But without, without, I thinkthe typical discipline that a,
a, a well run product team has,like, that's, that's the part
that's missing.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I agree.

Mike Rizzo (15:00):
I think that is missing and it's, it's, uh, you
know, I don't want to, it'sprocess.
it's understanding that thisrole has evolved, right?
We aren't the marketeers in thisfunction, right?
The ones that are out there,like creating, creating the
content or coming up with thecampaign ideas.
But you can advise it.

(15:20):
Yeah.
Um, and I think product managersdo a really nice job of talking
to their stakeholders,understanding what the pains
are, what the needs are in themarket, and then suggesting.
Improvements need to be made tothe product, the features that
need to be enhanced or added orcreated.
And if you start trying to thinkabout marketing ops in that way,

(15:41):
uh, well you have to go buildprogramming around that.
And maybe it's this one Yeah.
So anyway.
Yeah.
I love

it.
So there's, there's our firstthing that we've learned, right?
Go ahead Scott.
You were, were you gonna saysomething?

Um, I'm just wondering.
Sorry.
And you might have to use the.
Coming through there.
You're good?
Yeah, you're good.
Okay, good.
Um, there's some constructionhere going on, so I just noticed
that, uh, it's all right.
I can hear it here, but, okay,good.
I'm glad it's been cut out.
I, I was just gonna say that,you know, the methodology
really, I mean, was highly, I,you know, adapted for specific

(16:15):
pieces.
So I think sometimes, you know,sprint, we think of it as that
two week prototype, you know,which is very product oriented.
But, um, We would just take, wewere taking a lot of the
components out of it, you know,just the, just taking that and
using those, um, for the samepurposes.
So I think it's just, I'm, I'mprobably not, uh, you know,
following the methodology theway the agile, you know, kind of

(16:37):
experts would, would say, wouldbe the best.
But I just, I just take from itwhat.
Works and what I saw from it andwhat I saw worked and, and
adapted it for the purposes ofgetting to the end

point.
I, you know, I, and I thinkthat's my experience having
worked with a number ofdifferent me methodologies, even
in early in my career with a, asort of a small consulting
company after having worked ata, with, was then a big six
firm, you know, creating amethodology for this smaller
firm is, Um, I think a lot ofpeople, when they get a

(17:08):
methodology, at least I sawthis, was they, they, they use
it a little bit as a crutch.
Mm-hmm.
right.
As opposed to one of the toolsin their toolbox and how to, how
to That's right.
Solve things within thatcontext.
So it, it's, it's a little bitto me like, like use what you
think makes sense and works foryou.
Yeah.
Uh, and your organization.

(17:28):
Um, I think that also is a partof why Agile.
I think I've seen very mixedresults with Agile.
Really any methodology isbecause, Uh, if you've got
somebody who's leading that, whois really savvy and able to
adapt to the organization andwhere they are and not be so
rigid about, we have to do thisvery specific, uh, deliverable

(17:50):
with this very specific thingsfilled in, right, as opposed to
going like, what do we reallyneed to get out of this?
And adjusting from.

Exactly.
So it's learning, right?
Keep learning how we dobusiness.
Yeah.
And, and this is one of thethings is just keep, you know,
keep pushing those and that, youknow, methodologies are trying
new ways and learning what worksand adapting to it.

Yeah.
So, so let's talk about this andI think you and I maybe kind of
came up Okay.
Again, cuz I think we both hadinternet marketing and our
background and I had like, Iactually started.
Step into marketing and databasemarketing, which is like now
would be sort of somewhatrelated to, you know, data
science kind of stuff in someways.

(18:33):
But, um, yeah, yeah, I thinkabout what it was like to try to
keep up with technology.
Not only like the stuff I wasactively working on, but what
else was out there.
It was, you know, was like, howdo you, like, how did you go
about doing that?
Like what are some of thetactics you used earlier in your
career?
That you think we're successfulin helping you can kind of

(18:55):
continue to learn over time,right?

Yeah.
It's funny, I saw, uh, I wasthinking about this and I saw
like a, a, I think it was like ajob posting or something.
It was, and it, and it saidlike, the third thing on it was
like, you are a Master P atGoogle searching.
And I thought, we've got to thispoint where that's become a, a
job description criteria.
I

thought, well, it's, it's about to be, uh, how.
Prompt can you do for chat g p tRight,

right, right.
Exactly.
The next, the next evolution ofthat.
And I, and I think it, it was,it was that kind of, it's kind
of a combinational kind ofcritical thinking, you know, an
ability to, to, to search butalso to know what you're looking
for and how to find it and siftthrough it.
Um, you know, and it's, uh, overthe years evolved cuz of course
we've got so much more.

(19:42):
You know, communities and somany more sort of resources that
we can tap into, um, that it's,uh, I mean it's, it's like it's
joyful to, you know, to do itnow.
You know, when I think back, uh,originally trying to figure it
out, you were really on your ownin many cases.
You had to kind of just sort ofsee what you could, you could
learn.
Um, you know, there's alwaysthat part of just sort of having

(20:03):
the fundamental.
You know, which is really havingthe, the core understanding so
you can build on that and knowwhat you need to learn, you
know, and that's, that's thatother piece I guess as well is
sort of learning what you, uh,learning the basics and then
growing and building on that.

Yeah, there's a couple.
So what I remember doing earlierin my career was like, and it
had to do.
I would, um, I, I would go outand search for mostly, I'll call
it like magazines orperiodicals.
Right.
That I would like, subscribe to,and they would, you know, they
would come in the mail, right?
It was mm-hmm.
like, and I would, I would like,if I tried a new one, like I

(20:42):
tried a lot of different ones.
If I tried one and I'd like, oh,this is generally pretty good.
Yeah, I would keep going and ifI didn't, I would just drop it.
Right.
Um, and eventually I think thatturned to, you know, like email
subscriptions, but for me thatwas a lot.
It was like continually reading,but also I think there's a part,

(21:02):
and this is, you know, gonnacome across and probably
intentionally so a criticism of.
Education systems.
Right.
I think it, like it requireshaving some critical thinking
ability to go.
Mm-hmm.
like just because this per like,so much of that is that kinda
stuff is opinions and ideas in alot of these things, especially

(21:24):
if it's sort of pushing newboundaries that like knowing how
to like take that, it kind ofgoes back to the same thing we
did with.
With methodologies, right?
How do you, how do you assesswhat part of that you actually
think is valuable or not, andthat you can apply?
So I think that's a, a skill.
I feel like I learned early onthat, that nowadays, to your
point, right, access to peopleand information is even easier,

(21:48):
right?
But you still need to be able togo, what do I like?
How can I validate it?
What's right, what can I use?
Right?
Right.
Mm-hmm.

Mike Rizzo (21:57):
Yeah, it's, there's a, there's.
there's a big gap in the, in thesort of educational
infrastructure that's in placeto help, particularly in this
arena.
I think I, I, mm-hmm.
I, it's the only one I reallyknow, so I can't really speak
for the other one.
Uh, other criteria and educationprograms that you go through and

(22:17):
the careers that you take on,but it definitely feels like,
um, you know, the con I, I, Idistinctly remember, you know, a
decade ago or more, Sitting atmy job and just signing up for
literally every newsletter Icould possibly find because I
was like, I just, I wanted to,like, I wish I could have like

(22:40):
uh, you know, a kid who fell inlove with the Matrix movies,
right?
Like, I wish I could just likeplug it into my brain and like
consume all of it as quickly aspossible, Um, but to that, to
that end, right, uh, I don'tknow that I was ever in a
position to say, Hey, is this.
is the, like, does this apply toour business?

(23:03):
You know, and, and early on inyour, in your career, uh, the,
the sooner you can get to astage where you're validating
the, uh, the validity of thething that you're gonna go do or
that you're suggesting, or thethe motion that you wanna put
into the organization, thesooner you are open to, Hey,
this is how someone else did it.

(23:23):
Do you think that would work?
And you start asking the, youknow, your internal stakeholders
or, community that you're a partof, um, I think the faster
you'll learn, right?
Mm-hmm.
because it's like, I can't, Idon't know, I don't know about
you, Scott, but like I certainlywent and tried to implement some
things earlier on and you know,I think lead scoring is like

(23:45):
when you tie it back tomarketing automation and lead
scoring, right?
Mm-hmm.
everybody was talking about it.
Everybody was saying like, oh,we gotta do this.
And I was super early in mycareer and I was like, Stop it.
Like why?
Mm-hmm.
we don't know anything.
I was the person saying like, wedon't know anything about what
our people are doing.
It's gonna be like throwingspaghetti at the wall just to

(24:06):
see what sticks.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
and, and like now you hear a lotmore of that, but because
there's some Michael's leastfavorite term, there's some best
practices Mm-hmm.
out there.
Um, you can implement it earlieron as long as you make the
promise to yourself, to yourteam, and to your executive.
That you're going to go back andlook at whether or not that's

(24:28):
actually working.
Yeah.
Right,

right.
And so, I don't know, falls inthe categories.
Yeah.
Just because you can doesn'tmean you should right?
Yeah, exactly.

Well, and and I think a lot of these, you want
to be mindful in that criticalthinking piece.
Mike is, and you, you, youraised this really important
point, which is like the whyand, and not to be driven, you
know, I think we've gotten a lotof it driven.
Vendor and, you know, sort of,they've, they've sort of set the
motion and so as professionalswe can find ourselves just kind

(24:59):
of reactively learn, you know,doing what the, a lot of the,
the, the platforms and vendorsare bringing and, and providing.
And I think that, you know,especially with the
proliferation of the MarTech,you know, Space and TA stack.
Like we have to be able to kindof say, stop the insanity and
kind of back up and go, let'sactually solve business problems
with this stuff and not just do,you know, kind of the next thing

(25:23):
that's on the roadmap for, youknow, whatever, whatever, um,
vendor, whatever platform it is.
So, um, it's, it's been, it's aninteresting time.
Dealing with a proliferation.
I think if you don't really getsmart about that, you're just
gonna be, it's very hard tolearn to, to Michael, to your
point, like, how do you learnall of this?
Because there's no, um, youknow, there's not time in the

(25:44):
day to learn everything.
Right.
Um, so you have to make somedecisions and be, you know, and
then what do, and those are thecritical thinking part, like you
said, and, and being able to dothat.
And I'm sure, uh, you know,Michael, Teenagers.
Um, you know, one thing I'velearned from mine is that they
want to learn everything veryfast.
Um, and so, you know, there's,everything operates at a, at a,

(26:07):
at a frequency that re thatisn't really necessarily
conducive to actually having adeep understanding of something.
Um, but it's more like, can Imake it.
work.
And can you do it like rightnow?

No, it's, it's, um, it's really
fascinating cuz I, so like youhave teenagers and, and, and
Mike knows one of mine, myoldest and, uh, we're starting
to move towards publishing someof this stuff on YouTube.
And his immediate thing waslike, kids my age want shorts.
You need to have, you need tohave clips because that's the
way you're gonna grow.
Right.
And I'm like, like there's apart of me that gets that.

(26:41):
But it also is, Like those clipsmay or may not be enough to
really, like, if that's all theyget, will that be enough?
And so like, and, and on theother end, like I am the kind of
person who I actually reallyenjoy really long format stuff,
and I'm thinking like podcaststhat have kind of like ours,
right?

(27:02):
40, 45 minutes or even up tomm-hmm.
a couple of hours.
Um, and, and so.
I don't listen to'em straightthrough usually.
Right.
Or, or, or, or watch them.
But, um, yeah, I think, I thinkthis is like, this is an
interesting time, but I thinkthat mm-hmm.
the, the you point bring, havethe point about these, um, the
proliferation of technology.
I think this is another piecethat from my perspective, like

(27:24):
early on in my career, I did alot of work with an, as a
consultant doing accountingsystems.
So we would help clients withch.
I wouldn't say sometimes there'san rfp, but like evaluating and
guiding them through the choiceof a platform and then helping
'em with implementation.
And I like distinctly remembervery often having to tell

(27:45):
clients because the, the vendorswanted to, to showcase their
real big differentiators.
And typically would be thingslike, you know, really great
reporting or insights you couldget outta these platforms is if
you were an accounting orfinance team.
And we always had to kind ofbring'em back to like, that's
all great.
If it can do the core functionsthat your accounting team needs

(28:06):
to do every day.
GL a p R, right?
Mm-hmm.
If it doesn't do that, then thereporting doesn't really matter.
So yeah, I think that's anotherpiece is like really be able to.
Like, uh, oh, yeah, I see thepotential here, but also bring
it back to like, what is, whatis the real fundamental thing
that we need to achieve?
Um, yeah.

(28:27):
And so, yeah, I think, I thinkthat's it.
I mean, I, I will say like it's,it's, I think it has actually
gotten harder because there isso much, and a lot of it, it
probably was the case when Iwas, you know, describing the
times when I was reading.
Magazines.
Right.
A lot of it is opinion.

(28:47):
Um, it's just there's a lot moreopinions now.
Yeah.

Mike Rizzo (28:51):
Mm-hmm.
So there are a lot more, youknow, always, you know, what
strikes me about this idea oflike, um, you know, I think
Scott, you just said like, let'sgo solve a business problem,
right?
Um mm-hmm.
with, with the technology and.
It was, it was a long time ago Iwrote a post and I was trying to
articulate this idea that Ijust, I think it was a terrible

(29:11):
job of it, but it's on LinkedInstill It's on one of my little
articles.
I did a terrible job, but thewhole point was like, Hey, it's
not a magic button, right?
There's no flip of a switch.
and you turn on Marketo orHubSpot or Pardot and then just
lead start flowing.
Like it takes real work toimplement the tool and make it
do the things that you need itto do for your specific business

(29:34):
and.
And what's fascinating is likeI'm, I'm well into a decade plus
past that like time where wewere getting sold this software
and the vendors were sort ofleading this messaging, right?
And we're all like, oh,everybody needs this.
Uh, and we're still faced withthe same problem.
I was engaged with a client justthe other day who I'm advising.

(29:57):
uh, just in a very small, uh,temporary sort of project.
And it's specifically on, uh,using a piece of technology for
their business.
And, um, both the c e o and thelead, sort of the, the, the
co-owner said effectively, like,tell us what to do, right?
Just, just tell us what to do.

(30:18):
It's like, well, what's your goto market?
Oh, well we have all, like,we're getting referrals.
All these kinds of things.
They're sort of in the serviceindustry, services business.
And I was like, okay, soreferrals are working really
well.
And, and, and it was amazing howquickly I went.
We went from an engagement oflike, Hey, you're this, you're
this type of technology expertthat can help us maximize the

(30:39):
use of the technology.
And it went from, I'm gonna makethat happen, or I'm gonna at
least bring somebody else in tomake it happen for you, um, to.
well, tell us what to do withour business.
What should our go-to-marketprocess be?
Right?
Based on your observation of ourbusiness model and what we're
selling today.

(31:00):
And so for everybody listeningto this, right?
We said just a second ago, let'sgo solve a business problem.
You are, because you know howthese things work.
It, it's within moments of a,like, it was like probably our
fifth conversation.
we've sort of solved the easyproblems that the technology
needed to be cleaned up with.

(31:21):
And by the time we're in our,like fifth engagement, it's
like, now just tell us how togrow our business with these
tools.
And it, it completely changed,right?
And I called it out.
I said, Hey, you, you, mm-hmmyou asked us to just be here to
advise you on how this tool canwork.
So I need, we need to learn howyour business wants to grow so
we can.
To that situation, right?

(31:42):
And like, yes, we can proposeideas but like all these
listeners, all these marketingops pros that are out there
right now, like that's youropportunity.
You get to like learn how thisstuff works, right?
Learning about learning learnhow this stuff works, and then
go learn how somebody else'sbusiness works and then go apply
that technology to go solve abusiness problem.

(32:04):
But it's amazing we're, we're.
However many years into this,and it just, it's still the same
thing.
It's a chicken or the egg, acar.
The horse, we don't like, youknow, someone's acquiring a tool
and they're like, just tell uswhat to do.

I, I'm, I'm trying really not to go on my
rant about having the wordautomation and marketing
automation really screwed up,like people's perception of what
it was.
So, um, So, okay.
So we talked about like, you cansearch, you know, if you're good
at searching Yeah.
You can find stuff now.
Right.
You couldn't, couldn't easilyhave found before.

(32:39):
What, so this is part of like,this is a part, this whole
podcast is kind of tied in withmarketing ops.com, the
community.
Like how do you think, you know,what's your take on like how
much communities have affectedour ability to learn and adapt
and, and over.

I mean, tons.
I mean, today, uh, you know,there's probably, you know,
there's, besides marketingoffice and, and Mo Hops Pro, I
mean, others that I use thatare, you know, very like almost
part of the day-to-day.
Um, work.
Um, so it's become, you know,it, but it requires, you know,
it's that two-way piece, right?
You've gotta contribute andyou've gotta put back and, and,
you know, you've gotta do thatwithin the context of doing your

(33:19):
job and getting clients andgetting billing out.
So, you know, it's, it's tricky,um, because, you know, we don't.
You know, I'm not a paidfull-time, you know,
contributor, right?
So on, uh, you know, into, into,uh, the areas.
But, um, I think that you've gota, if you're a leader or you're
person, you know, who's, who'shiring, um, you know, rev ops or

(33:39):
marketing ops, give them thespace, you know, if you can,
like we talked about having thatsponsor.
Um, and we're, and within thiswhole theme of learning, you
know, putting.
Um, for the, your team, thepeople that work with you to get
better and contribute and bepart to, you know, like that's,
that's something that I thinkhas to, has to become more of

(34:00):
our.
Go-to practice in, in ourbusiness, we can't be the sort
of independent, you know, solecontributors.
We have to be really relying onthe learning across, across
different orgs.
That's what I really drew fromeven agency or consulting work.
Probably more even like, more sothan being, uh, sort of, you
know, uh, in-house.

(34:20):
Um, but if you're in-house, youreally need that because you're
not maybe as exposed to seeingdifferent business problems.
You're just sort of focusing onyour particular business, your
product, and, and, you know, theagency consultant piece allows
you to, to sort of step outsidethat, figure out how you ask
those questions.
That you probably already knowonce you've been at some

(34:40):
organization for five years, youdon't go into the CS team and
say, what's your, you know,what's your biggest problem?
Cuz you like, you sit next tothem or you, you know, right.
We used to, um, you know, and,and you know, but now you've
gotta go work with theseorganizations and try and figure
that out and, uh, and ask thosebusiness questions like Mike
said.

Yeah, I think that's, it's interesting.
So let, I mean, let's talkabout, you mentioned like if
you're a leader, right?
Um, providing space and time foryour teams to, to learn.
Um, so, you know, maybe if youcould talk a little bit about
like how you as a leader havetried to, like, what does that

(35:18):
look like for you?
What does that look, look likefor you that you think has
worked well?
And maybe stuff if, if you haveanything like what didn't work
well and share that with ouraudience.
Yeah.
I

mean, you know, I think that, you know, looking
at your, and really, reallyobviously just being, you know,
having good ears, listening wellto your, to the people that are
working for you and, and, andfiguring out what they need.
Um, in terms of, because there'sall this sort of, you know, sort
of scaffolding, I guess youwould call it, you can put
around that you've got, youknow, you give them lots of
opportunities to learn.

(35:49):
Um, you're open to the fact thatthey will make mistakes.
Um, and that in the process oflearning.
they, they get better.
And I think that probably ifthe, if there was anything that
I was learning that I would sayis a big takeaway for me, um, is
I had to get myself out of thehead of just thinking like a
soul.
Kind of like, this is how I didit.
And I just, you know, was kindof in my own head space around

(36:11):
that.
And starting to, you know,really in the last, you know,
I'd say the last 10 years of mycareer, working more as a
leader, mentor, and working withgroups of people and getting out
of that space.
Cuz I think that, you know, likeyou were saying, Michael, we
came from.
World far enough ago that it waslike very.
Singular, um, in that sense, orat least you tended to be sort
of working on your own.

(36:32):
Um, and now it's, it's entirelychanged and, and it's very much
about teams and, and, and thatlearning and facilitating that
learning just means giving themlots of, lots of encouragement
to learn.

So I think it, the idea of having scaffolding
and like providing thoseopportunities, the, the one part
that I think I have struggledwith is not so much doing that.
Cause I feel like I am prettygood about that and I'm pretty
good about trying.
M you know, my, my teams orpeople I mentor to kind of think
about what do I like, what's thenext step and what do you, what
should I be thinking aboutlearning, but then actually

(37:07):
getting them to do it.
Cuz I, I'm a really torn right,for, there's a big part of me
that thinks like part of my jobis to help them learn or learn
how to learn in this case,right?
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, also I think part of itis they need to take that on
from an o, like their owndevelopment needs to be their.
Right.
And they need to take ownershipof it.
Right.
Have you, like, have youstruggled with that as like I

(37:28):
have, and if so, have you foundanything that You know, I mean,
it's always easy when you getthe one person magically solves
it.
who goes out and does it becausethey're motivated.
But then there's the one who'snot that you see potential in,
and I think that's the hardpart.
Yeah.
You see, you have someone whoyou see potential in.
who is, for whatever reason,right?
They're feeling that like the,the reward mechanism that works

(37:49):
for them is the, the, therecognition of getting all the
day-to-day work done as opposedto learning and growing.
Right?
So it's really hard to get,like, how do you motivate those
people to do that, right?

Yeah.
I think you, you've gotta underor you know, sort of respect
that, you know, everybody is,You know, free agency.
I guess in that sense.
I mean, that they're developingtheir skills to be more
employable, to be better at whatthey do, and potentially to, not
necessarily, I mean, if you cangrow them in your team, but, you
know, we all know, um, you know,this is an organiz or this is a,

(38:22):
a, a, I'm not gonna say a, uh,You know, a field that there's a
lot of mobility, there's a lotof, you know, a lot of times
it's that next chance or thatnext learning opportunity, you
know, for a person is the nextrole and, and doing the next
thing.
Um, when you can provide it andyou can put it in your org, it's
great.
But also just being open tothat, I think, you know, that's,
that takes a little bit, that'sa little harder in, uh, in the

(38:44):
traditional business sense cuzwe generally want, you know,
from kind of HR retentionperspective, we want everybody.
You know, stay.
But in some cases I, I knowworking with one individual who
I still keep in close contactwith and is amazing and has
taken her career to amazingplaces.
You know, I had her for sixmonths and it was great and she
did great stuff during thattime, and I'm happy for her and

(39:07):
she's still, her and I are stillvery close as a, you know, I
don't, wouldn't call itnecessarily mentor, but in that
kind of, you know, sort ofpiece.
And, and I know that that's howI would want to be in, in all
situations.
That would just be like, I, youknow, want you to, to be the
best that you can be and, andhowever that works out.
So I don't know if that answers,I mean, it's, it's a difficult
question cuz it really depends.

(39:28):
But yeah, I

Mike Rizzo (39:29):
love the, um, mentality that you have there
and I think the soonerorganizations move past the idea
that, um, you know, I, I thinkit's happening already.
but we'll see.
we'll see how much is adopted.
But you know, you like, you haveto accept that people aren't

(39:52):
really going to be in a role forthe rest of their life.
Right.
Like that, that changed quite awhile ago.
Uh mm-hmm.
and I, I know that was astruggle for a lot of the
startups.
Um, I think when you look atsome of the data on, um, the US
sort of labor statistics, Ithink it's like average 10.
Like 3.6 years or 4.6 orsomething like that.

(40:16):
Um, which frankly I think is, ispretty interesting that it's
even that long.

Um, yeah, I was gonna say that, that's, I
was surprised when you saidthat, cuz that sounded high.

Mike Rizzo (40:25):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, I thought it was, it waspretty, pretty high.
But, uh, this is, this is one ofthe like passion areas that I
have right now and, and I havehad for a number of years and
I'm interested to see if.
Sort of line of thinking getsadopted more, where the sooner
you can align with youremployees career goals and

(40:48):
aspirations, or be a coach ontheir path through their career,
I think you have a higherlikelihood of increasing that
tenure for a period of timebecause they feel that they're
understood.
They feel that they're inalignment.
life circumstances change allthe time.
Yeah.
Right.
Like you, maybe you find aspouse, maybe you decide to

(41:10):
bring children into the world,you whatever you want to do, and
you go, you know what?
This organization reallyunderstands me and I appreciate
the culture.
I like the problems that they'resolving, and so I'm gonna go
ahead and hang around for awhile because they know, they
know what I'm trying to achieveand they're trying to help me.
You know, and yeah, I may not bethe VP of marketing that I want

(41:31):
to be or whatever it is that youaspire to be inside of this
organization, but they know thatmaybe that's what I want.
And, and that's great.
Right?
And so, yeah.

You know, I, I don't know.
I just, I, I feel like, I feellike we almost need, we almost
need a whole episode just onthe, like, um, like I would
argue, like that's not unusual.
Like to me this is a, a, a,that's a symptom of.
Um, most companies not doing avery good job of identifying and
preparing and supporting peoplewho are moving from individual

(42:03):
contributor to manager roles.
Right.
And that's, I think, I thinkit's that it's a huge mm-hmm.
huge challenge.
Um, and especially if you're ahigh performing individual
contributor to Scott's Point,right?
Mm-hmm.
like, there's a way I did it,and I like, it's really hard,
hard to fight that urge.
to just fix or solve somethingfor somebody who worked for, as
opposed to helping them learnhow to do it, and maybe they

(42:26):
have a better idea.
You and you, you squash it,right?
Mm-hmm.
so it's a real challenge.
Yeah.
Like that transition is one ofthe hardest, I think, in many
people's careers.
It was a really hard one for me.
Probably didn't do it very wellthe first time.
I feel like I've gotten betterat it, but it's, mm-hmm.
it is a different skillset thathas nothing to do with probably

(42:47):
what you did well as anindividual con.
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Mike Rizzo (42:50):
And that skillset will help you greatly, either in
an embedded role, whether youwanna become a people manager or
not, or if you choose to try todo something else
entrepreneurial in your life.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Being able to like, let go ofthe things that just because you
know how to do it faster, uh,doesn't mean that you can't
offload it to someone and teachsomebody, and That's right.

(43:11):
Enable

them.
That's right.
Yeah.
It may not be the best use ofyour time to do that.
Right, right.

Mike Rizzo (43:16):
Yeah.
And

so Totally.
Um, Okay.
So I like, I, I, I think wecould take that one and go for
another hour, probably just byitself, um, and have one of
those multi-hour shows.
But let's, let's go back to theskills and and learning thing.
So one of the things we'vetalked about on the podcast is I
know a couple of times, and youand I, when we talked, Scott, We

(43:37):
talked about like what are, whatdo we see as some of the major
like skill gaps within marketingops and revenue ops that we feel
like there's, there's more, moreneed for the expertise and
knowledge and experience withthis, these skills versus what's
we think like, at least from aperception standpoint, people
have, what, what do you see asthe major gaps in.

Yeah, I mean it's interesting, you know,
going back to my back cuz youknow, I came out of kind of like
the traditional marketing andthen completed a degree which
was more technical in nature.
So, you know, it was naturalthat I kind of.
Skewed that way, if you will,and then worked, you know,
agency side.
But I, I think what I see a lotof is just in terms of skills
gaps, is, you know, there's atendency for a lot of the

(44:21):
practitioners in the marketingteams, all the demand gens, all
the, you know, all those, allthose team members to, to be
very, um, Very strong with,with, with sort of software and
using software and all thosekind of tools.
Um, reporting to some degree is,it can be challenging some of
the pieces that require, uh, Iguess a, um, a.

(44:44):
A definitive view, uh, or anunderstanding of kind of math
literacy, statistical literacy,even to some degree.
You know, I think probably eventhe, I, I wanna call it data
literacy, which is really aboutunderstanding how databases work
and, you know, that reallyfoundational stuff is often
where I hit kind of, you know, Iwanna say roadblocks and working

(45:07):
with teams where they'll get toa place and they, they just
wanna be able to sort of, you.
Change the settings and filtersor, you know, do something.
But it's like, well, the, youknow, the, what we have to
understand is how it all, youknow, how it all connects and
relates.
And then again, you know, alsoyou, you talked about this as
well, like the, the statisticalor the understanding how that
part of it works in terms of,you know, that kind of, I want

(45:29):
to call it, you know, prettymuch your sort of core.
you know, foundational training.
I think that would have to be,if we're going to take, you
know, the, the, the revenue opsand the marketing ops to the
next level, I think theeducational background on that
is gonna, is going to have to,um, deliver that like baseline
Yeah.
In a way that it

probably didn't.
And that one in particular ishard for me because, um, having
gone grown up in.
Been kind of math nerdengineered by training.
Right.
It was sort of natural for me.
Same.
Yeah.
And it was easy.
And like it made sense to methat in high school I was
taking, you know, geometry andcalculus and things like that.

(46:09):
Um, but now I have teenagers whoare going through the same,
basically the same courses I hadwhen I, and when I really think
about like, if they're not gonnago into engineering, as of right
now, right?
That's not their intended path.
Like they're not gonna needcalculus.
Like I don't have a problem withthem knowing it, but I think
what would be better, and Ithink going back, I'm kind of

(46:30):
criticizing the educationsystem.
Like I think we need to bethinking about what are the
skills people really are gonnaneed on a regular basis.
And I think data literacy and instatistical analysis and
understanding that is a much,would be much more valuable for.
most children in, in saycollege, high school, college
aged children to be learningmm-hmm.
and I think we, and with youthat within our profession, uh,

(46:54):
there's definitely a gap interms of that because, You know,
nobody really learned that.
And the de the, the reality islike nobody else is as well
positioned as ops folks toreally have access to the data.
Right.
But if they don't know how toactually do that and do it well
and get really understand whatit means and what the story is

(47:15):
that it's telling, then we'remissing an opportunity there to
be strategic, which is again,something we, yeah.
We all aspire to, I think to beseen that way.
Right.
So, um, totally.
Any, like any others or anythingelse that you wanna share with
our audience that, cause I thinkwe're gonna have to wrap it up.

(47:35):
Uh,

no.
I mean, thank you for, forhaving me.
It's been a great conversation.
This is stuff I'm passionateabout too as well.
So I, um, I, you know, lovehaving the opportunity to talk
about it and talk about, youknow, that sort of how we do the
work and not just then of thenuts and bolts of it.
Um, so, you know, no, it wasgreat.
Thank you.
And.
I can't think of anything more.
There's always more, but that'sa whole other conversation.

(47:58):
we're just gonna

Mike Rizzo (47:58):
go back and do that other, uh, one hour chat about
investing in your employees in anew way,

Right?
I would that, maybe that'ssomething we should do at mops.
Piza.
Have a little round tablediscussion.
Mike, there's a topic for you.
Mm-hmm.

Mike Rizzo (48:12):
Yeah, we could totally do that.
That'd be, that'd be a ton offun.

So

Mike Rizzo (48:16):
that's a lot of the work that I'm trying to work on
right now too.
So investing in these, in theseprofessionals to help them
achieve their goals.

Yeah, right.
I would, I would definitely.
I'd be interested in that as, asan audience member.
Or if, if you, you felt like Icould contribute, I'd, I'd be a
part of that as a you definitelycan.
So, um, well, Scott, it's been apleasure at really, I, I really
Same.
Thank you.
We have to cut it.
Cut it here because it feelslike we could go on with some
really good stuff.

(48:44):
Uh, I think our audience isreally gonna benefit from this
conversation, so thank you.
Um, if folks want to keep upwith you or connect with you or
learn more, what's the best wayfor them to do?

um, hit me up on Scott at CXM Consulting or
follow me, um, on LinkedIn.
I mean, a lot of our teammembers are on there or on one
of the communities, um, uh, aswe we just discussed.
Um, all of those places I'mliving in.

Awesome.
That's terrific.
Yeah.
Well, thank you Scott.
Thanks Mike.
Uh, and, uh, thanks to all ofour listeners and our audience.
Uh, we appreciate all yoursupport.
If you have any ideas for guestsor topics that you wanna.
Bring to our attention or youare interested in being a guest,
definitely reach out to usthrough, um, the community or
the marketing ops.com website.

(49:30):
There's a place where you cansuggest topics.
Until next time, thankseveryone.
Bye-bye.
Bye everybody.
Bye.

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