November 17, 2025 • 48 mins
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In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we are joined by Penny Hill, Founder and Principal Consultant at Three Threads Consulting. Penny has built her career at the intersection of marketing, operations, and strategy, helping teams simplify complexity, connect departments, and make data more meaningful.
The conversation centers on one of the most common sources of friction in go-to-market teams: attribution and alignment. Penny shares insights on why teams often clash over credit, what “marketing contribution” truly means, and how simplifying metrics and conversations can drive stronger collaboration and better outcomes.
In this episode, you will learn:
- Why attribution continues to challenge marketing and sales alignment
- How to simplify performance measurement without losing insight
- Ways to present metrics that build trust with executives and peers
- How Marketing Ops professionals can shift the focus from “who gets credit” to “how we win together”
This episode is perfect for Marketing Ops, RevOps, and go-to-market professionals who want to improve collaboration, clarity, and trust across their organizations.
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
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Ops Cast is brought to you in partnership with Emmie Co, an incredible group of consultants leading the top brands in all things Marketing Operations. Check the mount at Emmieco.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:24):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpscast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered byother MoPros out there.
I'm your host Michael Hartman.
Flying a bit solo.
This is the first episode we'rerecording after Mops Blues of
2025.
So I'm sure Mike and Numi arerecovering from that.
But I'm powering on.
So I am joined today by PennyHill.
She's the founder and principalconsultant at Three Threads
(00:47):
Consulting.
Penny has built her career atthe intersection of marketing,
operations, and strategy,helping teams simplify
complexity, bridge gaps betweendepartments, and make data
meaningful.
Today, she and I are going tobe talking about one of the most
common sources of friction inGoToMarket teams, attribution
and alignment.
Why do so many teams fight overcredit?
What does marketingcontribution actually mean?
(01:08):
And how can simplifying ourmetrics and our conversations
lead to better results?
So, Penny, welcome to the show.
Penny Hill (01:14):
Again.
Hey, yeah, thank you.
Yes, yes.
Thanks for having me.
Michael Hartmann (01:18):
Yeah.
I like this is a little bit oddbecause I think we scheduled
this before you're on anotherepisode that we already recorded
because we did the one withLeslie and all the others.
Um that's this is fun.
Yeah.
Can you do it twice?
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
Anyway, well, good, good tohave you again.
Um, all right.
Once I know you and I havetalked about this, but um and
(01:42):
I'll tell you my version of thisif you want, but you said that
both marketing and executivesacross businesses have a
tendency to overcomplicatethings, especially in the
marketing world, I think.
So, like for me, I often findmyself telling marketers like
you're caring about stuff thatonly marketers care about, um,
which is maybe a slightvariance, but like what does
that look like to you inpractice?
And why do you think it happensso much?
Penny Hill (02:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I thinkwe tend to overcome
overcomplicate a lot of things.
And we really see it when we'retalking reporting and
attribution models.
Um, and there's a few ways thatI see this.
One way is, you know, we can weend up having different
attribution models for differentchannels, right?
Or segments.
Um, we're hyper focusing on allthe differences.
(02:24):
So now we have all of thesemodels.
Um, or we have too many, maybeit's all the same channel, the
same.
We don't have it differencesper channel, but we have too
many attribution models.
We're looking at every singlecut of this.
We've got it feeding our data.
Um, now everything's justmuddied because we we we're
looking at too much.
And you can also have it wherewe don't have one at all, or
(02:46):
maybe we have one, but no one'susing it because we just can't
come to an agreement on what itshould be.
And I think at the end of theday, a lot of times this happens
because we get really, reallystuck in exceptions.
So we're really focused on thedetails, we're digging into the
weaves of everything, and wewant it to be perfect, and it's
just not going to be.
(03:07):
Like perfection should not beour goal, really, with anything,
but certainly not an enterpriseB2B.
Michael Hartmann (03:13):
Yeah, I tell people perfection is first off,
it's an impossible thing, right?
That's I used to I worked witha CMO who's like, uh, what does
beautiful look like?
And I was like, I hate thatquestion.
You know, like I understandlike like what's the best work
we can do, but like I just it'sjust so hard to to get to.
(03:35):
And like I think yeah, I mean,I I look at the world as
trade-offs.
Very different thing than likewhat's right, what's wrong.
So I think there's very fewthings that are like that.
So um yeah.
Yeah, I mean what do you likewhat do you what do you think is
the big driver though?
(03:55):
Like I I do think this is tendsto be I mean, I don't know.
I maybe it's the same same casein other functional areas, but
it feels like marketing is uhparticularly susceptible to this
like overcomplication of stuff.
Do you think it's unique tothat?
Or do you think it's somethingthat is common across other b
business functions?
Penny Hill (04:19):
I mean I guess I mean most of my career I've been
in marketing.
Um being in ops, you know, youtouch a lot of things, and I
feel like I mean, I seecomplication in customer
service.
I see you see complication insales.
Um, I think we all tend to doit.
I really do.
I don't know if it's justmarketing.
Um, I think an example is ICP.
(04:41):
I see that a lot.
And that's marketing and sales,and you might have customer,
you know, the customer successteam.
You've got lots of orgs inthere.
Um giving opinions on ICP andwe'll end up making it so
granular, you can'toperationalize it.
We just overcomplicate itlooking for perfection.
Um, I mean, sometimes it's andit's also because you have too
many cooks in the kitchen.
I think that that can drive alot of it too.
(05:03):
When you've got everyone thatkind of gets everyone gets to
have an opinion on it, oreveryone gets to kind of drive
the decision.
I guess everyone can have anopinion, but at the end of the
day, you have to have, you know,a few key, key people that will
will drive what happens.
Um, and you've got to at somepoint stop showing it to people,
stop getting input.
Right.
Michael Hartmann (05:21):
Or you'll just keep I know what one of the
things I run into is wherepeople want to and like try to
solve for every every particularscenario that might possibly
occur.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I create it the the thepeople who aren't into sports
might not get it, but like ifyou lift the rule book for the
(05:42):
NFL, it just keeps gettingbigger and bigger and bigger
because they try to type rulesfor all kinds of different
scenarios that are unique.
Whereas, and I'm less familiarwith FIFA and the world of
actual like football for therest of the world, but like that
meanup is pretty simple andleaves a lot to interpretation
in the moment, which I like Ithat I tend to gravitate towards
(06:04):
that.
And I think a lot of people,maybe it's an American thing,
like where you want to solve forevery scenario.
I don't know.
Penny Hill (06:11):
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, I do.
I I I see that in theattribution models for sure,
people trying to do that.
Like that's we get in trouble.
Least and I always, you know,early, huh?
Yeah, and leading scorescoring.
Yeah, yes, for sure.
For sure.
And it's funny, early in mycareer, like actually not even
my career, this is when I thiswas when I was in high school, I
made maps and I I did this fora government contractor.
(06:32):
And it's funny because theyalways said, like, and we made
maps by hand and everything, youknow, had to be done pretty
well.
And but they always said, goodenough for government work.
That was something I alwaysheard, good enough for
government work.
And it was, it was just thislike, it's like 80% good.
It's we're not looking forperfection with this because
we'll be here all day.
Um, and that I mean, that'ssomething that stayed with me my
(06:53):
whole life.
I think that a lot.
Like, well, we're at this isgood enough for government work.
This is we're at the 80%.
This is good.
Michael Hartmann (06:59):
Yeah.
You know, I mean, that's to me,there's a another analogy of
like strategy, right?
I think again, I think peopletend to overcomplicate strategy.
And a book that I read yearsago, gosh, it's I don't even
know how old it is now.
It's got to be in the 20, 15,20 years old, is called
Execution.
It's kind of a scary executive,the discipline of getting
things done.
(07:19):
And it kind of like it was theone for me where I was like,
because I was in strategy andconsulting work at the time, and
um, it really changed the way Ithought about it.
Like, strategy is important,but uh, it doesn't really mean a
whole lot if you can't actuallyexecute on it and hold people,
hold yourselves and othersaccountable for the results.
And so it was a big for me, itwas a big mind shift to go into
(07:41):
that model of like execution isat least as important, maybe
more important than strategy.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
So what what are your thoughtsevery time?
I mentioned, yeah, I mentionedup front, but it was
attribution, and I know thatprobably you and I both have had
a lot of conversations aboutattribution.
I think with your consultingwork now, you've probably had
(09:02):
more recently too.
But like I in fact, I was justtalking to somebody else about a
potential of being a guest, andit was like attribution was
maybe one of the topics.
And like I was like, itcontinues to be a topic that is
of interest and and a challengefor a lot of people.
Like, why, like, why do youthink it's continues to be such
(09:22):
a pain point?
Penny Hill (09:26):
You know, I think, and it it really is for
everyone.
Every everyone I've talked to,I think every company, and
there's been quite a few umsince I went out of my own,
attribution has it has been somesource of pain for them.
Either they needed to set it upor it was there, but it's not
working quite like they want itto.
Um, and I think it's because wejust tie so much to it,
(09:47):
especially as marketers, so manycompanies, um, you know, your
your marketing goals are basedoff source pipeline, um which is
isn't something I necessarilyagree with.
But even if you don't havesource pipeline, you've got to,
you've got to show what revenueyou're generating, right?
We got to prove there's valuein the marketing we're doing.
Um, and so you've got it, youknow, where are we attributing
that revenue?
(10:07):
Um, I just think we tie, and werightly so tie so much to
revenue and marketing, right?
That we tie so much to thesemodels um that we then tend to
overcomplicate them because wewant to make sure we get credit
where we're putting our time.
Michael Hartmann (10:21):
Yeah.
Well, it's funny because I likeI tell people all the time I
have this sort of I loverelationship with attribution
modeling.
But like my point is like itdoesn't like even the simplest
attribution models arecomplicated math if you're not
kind of a math wonk.
And so it and it as soon assomeone sees something in the
(10:43):
model that they don't agreewith, right?
It it undermines the overallmessage rather than supporting
it.
So I have yeah, I've tended toshy away from it a little bit.
Um, I haven't totally thrown itout.
Yeah, because I think there'sthere's value in it still.
Um we can get to this a littlebit later though, too, because
(11:06):
like I think there's also likewho you're sharing it with
matters.
But um yeah, you also mentionedcontribution, right?
It's I think you and I actuallywent back and forth on this
when we were talking about thisat one point.
Like I because of my kind ofchange in mindset about
attribution, I have probablymoved more towards, I think I
(11:26):
like the idea of acontribution-based model, right?
Where you have some sort ofthere's some assumptions here
that there's some agreementabout how we're measuring, you
know, who sourced the thepipeline revenue um up front, so
we're not spending time inreviews about that, um, and
agreeing that there's probablygoing to be some where it's
right and some where it's wrong.
And so fine, we're all workingtowards the same big number.
(11:49):
But like I think you like,where do you lean on that?
You know, do you lean moretowards like I think you
attribution reporting is alittle better or or
contribution-based stuff, orlike what do you, what's your
take on that?
Penny Hill (12:02):
Yeah, so when it comes to marketing, I think um I
personally feel we should onlybe looking at what does
marketing influence.
So more of that, you know, whatwhat part of revenue um is
marketing touching?
I do not, I I don't likemarketing source those marketing
contribution um models.
And I mean, I've done them, Ido them like most companies do
(12:23):
them.
Um, but I just think it causes,it just causes a lot of it
causes a lot of infightingbetween sales and marketing.
And at the end of the day, weneed to be on the same team as
them.
And that's my goal.
Usually my goal is to alignwith sales.
Our goal in marketing is is tohelp sales, right?
We, we are, we are there to tokind of help move that pipeline
(12:45):
um, you know, down the funneland make it bigger, right?
Make it close faster.
Like that's the kind of stuffwe're doing in the enterprise
B2B space.
Um, it doesn't necessarilymatter who sources it.
I don't think that, you know,but you just you don't have a
person that raises their hand ona demo form and then just walks
through and is the influenceror decision maker on the closed
(13:05):
one opportunity anymore.
That that's just not thebuying.
Yeah.
That's not the that's not howhow they buy.
And you know, not that it neverhappens, but it's in general,
that's not.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so I just think it causes,I don't know how many times like
you end up just fighting withsales or like, but we really did
this.
And you look in the data andthey may have, right?
Because whatever model you do,it's made up.
(13:28):
It's a little finger in thewind of where are we gonna set
it.
Um yeah.
So yeah, so I do, I I likemoving away from that.
You know, you're notmarketing's not sourcing it.
Maybe you have sales of SDRsource, like I I could see value
in that um to see kind of whichof those orcs is bringing it
in.
But when marketing comes along,I like to see that they are
(13:49):
influencing it.
Michael Hartmann (13:51):
Yeah.
So you you don't uh like if youfound less of that um
infighting when you usemarketing at attribute
attributed.
Yes.
Yeah, really.
Penny Hill (14:01):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, if we can anytime yousay marketing source something,
I feel like sales gets like getsa little kind of defensive or
can, you know, they just theycreate the pipeline, right?
Like that's that's their job,that's what they do.
Michael Hartmann (14:16):
Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, because I I have I mean,part of why I have shied away
from it.
I mean, not to get too far downanother rabbit hole, like I've
kind of gone.
I mean, I think the flaws ineither one of those, if that's
the only things you're lookingat.
I've had more luck with goingat it with a different tack,
(14:37):
which is less about pure numbersand more about story, right?
So yeah, looking at um likerecently won deals that are
hopefully representative like ofa more of a bigger pattern, and
looking at across that thatthat buyer's journey, if you
will, like what were all thedifferent touch points that
(14:59):
maybe had an influence and umthe timing of them and things
like that, and telling thatstory rather than trying to go
like, here's this complicatedmodel or this, you know,
complicated way that we'reagreeing, we've said that we're
gonna say who sourced this deal,right?
And focus more on like whatwere the things that what are
the things that happen when wewin and when we don't win?
(15:21):
And yeah, and that I've I'vefound works better with the
broader audience than any ofthose model kind of things do.
Have you ever tried anythinglike that?
Penny Hill (15:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think that's a piece,I mean, to me, and maybe maybe
I'm thinking about itdifferently or or wrong, but
that's a piece of the model.
Like, because when, you know, Ilook at it as when we we do a
model, we do an attributionmodel, or my team does one, we
have laid out every single touchpoint.
Like the goal is we've gotevery single touch point there
in our data that then we can dowhat we please with.
(15:53):
And part of it is thatmulti-touch attribution, looking
at like what all is happeningon this opportunity.
And I do think that's the beststory to tell.
It's very easy to tell one byone.
I think sometimes you need away to be able to say
holistically, like what ishappening.
And especially like for yourcampaign managers.
Like, I'm putting money in ads.
Are they in are you know,what's happening with them?
(16:14):
Okay.
Well, we see people that areinteracting with their ads.
Now we see they're on theseopportunities or whatever.
Like we can see that'sinfluencing this kind of hype.
Michael Hartmann (16:23):
Yeah, and that's I think that's kind of
getting it what I was talkingabout about who sees this
reporting, right?
I I am a big believer thatattribution reporting should be
used, certainly withinmarketing, but definitely with
like if you've got campaignmanager type rules, right?
They should be, yeah.
I mean, if I was in theirshoes, I'd want to know, like,
as soon as my campaigns werelaunching, right?
How are they performing?
(16:44):
And uh across a number ofmetrics, including are they
driving pipeline revenue or atleast having some influence on
it?
So, like to me, that's what Iwas talking about, like having
the right audience.
But I don't think you werewrong, like uh so you guys said
if you're not if you'reunderstanding it right or not.
I think we're saying kind ofthe same thing, right?
Like there's an agabit levelattribution reporting, but then
(17:05):
if you go down to specificcases, right, it brings such
numbers to life.
And that, like I literally, youknow, I've been in rooms where
I wasn't doing the I was justdoing the attribution reporting,
like with sales teams, and youknow, people were not paying
attention, you know.
The town like and then weswitched to doing these stories
(17:25):
about specific ones, and peoplewere leading in, and the body
like they're just the bodylanguage is different.
And then over time, right, theconversations I was having with
those teams changed too.
Penny Hill (17:36):
Yeah.
So either I guess yeah, yeah,it's it's we're we're doing all
of it, I think, you know, withdifferent audiences.
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (17:46):
And I the reason I bring it like it's it's
it's not an easily scalable,repeatable thing, but it almost
shouldn't be, right?
Because you're looking atspecific cases, but it's it
requires some, you know, I goback to my playing defense and
basketball, right?
It's an effort-based thing,right?
You have to put some effort into do that and to build a story,
(18:08):
but I think it pays dividends,especially outside of marketing.
Yeah, so I mean that's yeah,no, I agree with that.
All right, we should stop rightthere.
I like that.
No.
Um let's see.
So you you you've touched onthis too, right?
So there's a little bit of thisthat is about getting credit,
(18:29):
um, which I yeah, I strugglewith that as the right goal, but
um when you see when you seethat in these organizations
where there's this sort ofcredit, credit gaming, credit
game that's going on betweenmarketing and sales or marketing
sales BDRs, depending on wherethey're structured, like um like
(18:51):
what like what's your what doesthat tell you about those
organizations in terms of youknow what's working well, what's
not working well?
Penny Hill (19:00):
Yeah, I would say, you know, when I see this
between any group, you see it alot between sales and marketing.
Um, you can see it even withinmarketing, you're there's not
alignment, like they're not onthe same team.
And I think you know, it reallyshows that division when we're
fighting over credit.
It's part of why I like to takesourcing out of it, because I
think it helps take the creditout of the equation.
Um, because it doesn't matter,we're all on the same team,
(19:21):
right?
I mean, we all win whenever,you know, that we get that
pipeline, we get that closedone.
Um, we all lose if we don't,regardless of who sources the
pipeline.
Um, so I I think um I think itreally can show a lot of
division.
I think it's very common.
Like this isn't to me, this ispart of the it's it's like a
(19:42):
stretch goal wherever you are,right?
You're really trying to getthat alignment with sales and
working at it.
Um and I I even when there aresourcing models, like where it's
like marketing, marketing, youknow, kind of has goals based on
how much pipeline they source,I tend to go into calls, like
kind of throwing that off thetable.
Like, you know, yeah, pipelinejurors, we're here to help you.
How can we help you?
(20:03):
What are we doing to help you?
Michael Hartmann (20:05):
So I'm I was curious.
Do you do you have an exampleyou can share or a general
approach to that?
Because I like I like that, butlike sometimes it's hard
getting people to change theirmind.
Like, oh, we like I see jobdescriptions, for example, like
for marketing apps roles, andit's like build attribution
models, and like to me, is alike a major thing.
(20:25):
Um, and that's not again not tosay that it's wrong, but like I
find the same thing, right?
We whether it's attributionmodeling or contribution
approach, there's struggles withthat, getting that alignment.
Um, but yeah, yet what youdescribed there sounds
interesting, but I don't knowwhat that like kind of trying to
think about like what does thatlook like on the ground, if you
(20:47):
will.
Penny Hill (20:48):
Yeah, so I think what it looks like, I would
you're kind of when you'reworking with sales, you don't
want to talk about sourcing.
You're talking about thingsabout like here's everything
marketing is doing in marketing.
You're looking at those dealskind of like you were talking
about.
We're showing them, here's anopportunity, right?
Here's everything we'vetouched.
And then hopefully, if if ifit's working like we want it to,
(21:10):
we can start to show, like whenmarketing's in the deal, when
we are in the account, we'reseeing, you know, higher revenue
from it.
Maybe we're seeing it, youknow, be faster.
It's going to close win faster.
When you can start to look, youknow, some of those A BM
metrics that we pull together,you can start to kind of do
those just A-B comparisons andmake it really, really clear.
(21:30):
And I've always found that'sreally helpful when you can show
that.
You can show the win rate toanother one.
You're it's a higher win ratewhen we are surrounding the
account and we're in there withyou.
And regardless of whether alead came in originally from us,
it doesn't matter.
Like if you take that off thetable and you just talk about
what are we doing to help youwith these and these accounts
(21:51):
and these opportunities.
Michael Hartmann (21:52):
Do you find that you because somebody has to
take the first step towardsthat?
Do you find that that's you'rein the kind of a marketing or
marketing ops role, having to bethe one that takes that first
step?
Penny Hill (22:03):
Yes.
Yes.
I yeah.
I have I've found it, but I'vea lot of times I'm the one
that's kind of helping to drivethat.
So it's, you know, I mean,there can be organizations where
sales is driving that as well,I'm sure.
Michael Hartmann (22:14):
Sure.
Yeah.
I just like I my my that's myexperience too, is it um, I
mean, like maybe not quitealigned with what you were
talking about in general, butlike I think part of this in
quotes lack of alignment betweenmarketing and sales is because
they speak different languages alot of cases.
And so I know I find myselfpart of this is I worked in
(22:37):
sales for a brief period of mycareer, right?
So I appreciate the challengesand nuances of that and what
they're expected to deliver on,et cetera, et cetera.
And you know, I try to I try tobring that to the conversation.
Um and where I can, right, ifthey've they're coming and
they're asking for something, orif we're going to them to ask
(23:00):
for something, right, someupdate to Salesforce or CRM,
whatever, right, then that we'reI'm thinking about it from
their perspective and showingthat, right?
And so so working with yeah, Imean, like one of the examples I
have is like a company I was atwhere um I inherited some
already stuff in in flight thatwas changing, impacting the
(23:20):
sales organization, and the toplevel sales leadership was
aligned.
But what I found, the problemwas it was like the next level
down, the next level down,right?
That's not like it hadn'treally been embedded there.
And so when I started to lookat making changes from what was
originally the original strategythat I inherited, I
(23:41):
specifically asked for what Icall the tenants, right?
The people who are kind ofcloser to the impact and
building relationships with themas well, right?
And it took a little bit oftime to do that.
Um, and sometimes that meantdoing something kind of to help
them, right?
Something to like show that Iwas trying to listen and help so
(24:04):
that when I went back to them,I could, you know, I'd build
some credibility.
Penny Hill (24:08):
For sure.
Yeah, for sure.
No, I I think that's reallyimportant.
Um, I know I was actuallytelling some people on my team
recently, I mean, sellers areour customer.
And and I know this isn't, youknow, marketers don't like to
hear it, but at the end of theday, they're kind of our most
important customer.
Everything we do has to workfor them.
(24:29):
Um, and it has to driverevenue, and they're the ones
that are putting revenue on thebooks.
So, like we really have to takethem into account.
Um, not that we don't focus, Imean, we're marketing ops, we're
certainly supporting marketing.
I'm not saying we don't, butwe've got to make sure we're
aligned with the sellers, we'retaking them into account, and
we're communicating with them insome way.
Michael Hartmann (24:47):
So yeah, I I mean, I it's I'm laughing.
Well, I have two reactions toyou then like one is like I hate
the idea of internal customers,but like I'll let that go.
Um I just and part of that'sbecause of this other part,
which is I there's I've talkedabout this probably multiple
times on the podcast.
And I know I've talked to otherpeople about there's this book
I got years and years ago calledHow to Be a Marketing
Superstar, which is this sillyname.
(25:08):
Right.
Um basically it was likeeverybody's paycheck would say
this is customer money.
And I think if we lose like inwhat we're doing, um, no matter
what role you're in in anorganization, right?
Because he kind of made it likeif we don't hit our revenue
(25:29):
numbers, like it impactseverybody.
Penny Hill (25:32):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (25:32):
So um, and we need salespeople to do that
final mile.
It doesn't matter how much wecan do it.
Like if that doesn't happen,then they have, yeah.
So enabling them is huge.
I would say the other flipside, which I'm really this is
where I think AI, I'm and I knowpeople are doing this, but I
haven't had a chance to do it isyou know uh using technology
(25:56):
and AI, like recordings of salescalls to feed back into product
marketing and sales enablementteams, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, what should we how shouldwe be talking about our
products and services to themarket?
Um, I think too much it's toooften it gets siloed, right?
And the content that'spublished is not really useful.
(26:17):
It doesn't really resonate withthe market, sales teams don't
use it, right?
We all get frustrated.
Yes.
So like now we can takeadvantage of that.
So yeah.
Penny Hill (26:27):
Yeah, no, that is that's a really good use case.
Michael Hartmann (26:29):
Yeah.
Tell me when you're using it.
Okay, so hands into this too,and maybe we could like take
this a little bit on anotherlevel of detail later later from
where we were, but you know, soone of the things about
measurement, there's lots ofdifferent metrics in marketing,
(26:51):
lots of data.
Um, one of the things that I'vetalked about before, I would
like to get your thoughts on ismatching the type of metric and
the level of it to the audiencewho's gonna be receiving it,
right?
So we kind of talked about liketo me, attribution reporting,
try to do that to say like a CFOor even the other senior
(27:13):
leadership is probably not gonnago over really well because
it's complicated.
But like there, I'm sure thereare exceptions.
But what's your like, what doyou think?
How do you think about theright metrics or measurements or
reporting to do for differenttypes of audiences within an
organization?
Penny Hill (27:31):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think you've got
you've got to do that and youhave different views.
And I think you get, you know,your executives.
I mean, just simply you'rethey're just gonna be really
higher level.
Like you're gonna be focused onrevenue, you're gonna be
focused on overall revenue.
Um, maybe you have a percentthat's marketing influence,
maybe a lot of times you do havesourced, like this, this is the
source pipeline.
(27:51):
You've got win rates, um,closed one, maybe you're
comparing if marketing touchedor not, but you're still super
high level looking at that,those revenue metrics.
And then on the exact oppositespectrum, say you're marketing
manager.
I mean, that's where you've gotkind of some of what you we
think of as vanity metrics, butyou got clicks, you got opens,
you got views, clicks to open,um, all of that, you know, um
(28:13):
cost per click, all of that kindof stuff that we don't want to
show to the executives, eventhough sometimes people do.
We don't want to do that.
We don't want to get too boundup into them because a lot of
times, you know, especially likeI use emails all the time.
A lot of those metrics aren'treal valid, right?
Every server opens either, orlots of servers open emails,
lots of them click them.
Does not mean someoneinteracted, but directionally,
(28:37):
when you're comparing all youremails, it's really good data
for your marketing manager tosay, hey, what content is
resonating with people?
Um, you know, what what whereshould I pivot?
And things like that.
Yeah.
So so yeah, so I would say that,yeah, like you've got those
very granular dashboards tosomething much, much more high
level.
Michael Hartmann (28:57):
Yeah.
I I mean, I I've certainly justshy away from talking about
vanity metrics because I thinkthey're just metrics too.
Yeah.
Because I and I think you'reright.
The how you use them is more ofwhat it is.
But I also think marketers andlike campaign managers, if you
have those, like I I I thinkit's really valuable to them,
(29:17):
especially um early in the earlystages of a campaign, right?
You like those are the actualnumber, like signals of are
going to tell you whether or notsomething's landing and
working, right?
That's right.
Yeah, are people opening youremails?
Are they reading them?
Are they clicking through?
Are they are they registeringfor your webinar or whatever it
is, right?
And if you're not payingattention to that and you don't
(29:40):
know what to expect from that,then you've got a different
problem.
But it doesn't mean you don'twant the idea of vanity metrics
because I think they're earlyindicators of longer term
success.
Penny Hill (29:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, you definitely needthem.
Michael Hartmann (29:54):
Yeah.
So I mean that's one thing Iwould like any and you said
dashboards.
Like I the other part of this,like I have run into places
where people I get a marketingleader is like, we need
dashboards.
You need a dashboard.
And how is sort of I just sortof like do you not like recoil,
(30:15):
I guess, like to that kind ofrequest?
Because I think I understandthe goal of having a kind of a
comprehensive view into what'shappening within the
organization or whatever.
But I think starting with theidea of a dashboard might be
okay, but I think doing it alittle bit at a time is a better
approach.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Penny Hill (30:34):
Yeah.
So yeah, I definitely can seethat.
I do like dashboards, I likethings being always on or as
always on as your data allows,whatever your refresh rate is,
you know, where executives cango look and see, and your
marketers can be able to justlog in and see you see how
things are doing.
Um, but I also don't get, Ithink we were talking about this
a little bit earlier withperfection.
(30:55):
Like you don't have to waittill you have all the answers.
You don't have to wait till youhave the full strategy of
everything you want to see.
Like we need to be able to kindof move forward and get things
out there.
And you can always change it.
Like if it doesn't work, changeit.
Michael Hartmann (31:07):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think that's a lotof people put a lot of effort
into.
Well, I mean, this is kind ofgets into like a more of an
operational piece, but I like Irun into lots of I run into lots
of places where there's call itI'll be I'll be nice, heavy
review and approval process.
Processes.
Um, yeah.
In some cases, way too much.
And unclear who who gets whogets input and uh feedback
(31:31):
rights and who gets who getschange rights.
I mean, that's like that is awhole separate on it.
But I think um what I coach alot of teams I've worked with
over the past is like if it canreview an approval process, be
smart about where you whereyou're heavier and where you're
lighter, because I don't thinkyou have to treat everything the
same, right?
And I think the example wouldbe email, right?
Once an email is gone, it'sgone.
(31:52):
So probably put a little morereview on that to a degree.
Um but if it's content on yourwebsite, right, you should be
able to change that withinminutes, right?
So doesn't mean you you don'thave any care for it, right?
You still should have highstandards, but like it doesn't
(32:15):
like it doesn't have to be quoteperfect, right?
It can be change it and youshould get it out.
So have you run into thatbefore where there's like kind
of overwhelming ravine approvalsand unclear role.
Oh, yeah.
How have you worked through forsure over either overcoming
that or getting it to change?
Penny Hill (32:35):
Yeah.
So I think I mean you have toshow what the the roadblocks
are, I think.
And it's I'll use email in anexample because I think it's one
a lot of people run into andI've seen it before too.
You've got everyone has a sayin it, right?
Everyone's you know gets toread it and approve it, and they
get to read it and approve itmultiple times.
Yes.
And every time someone newlooks at it, they're gonna maybe
have a way they want to say itdifferently.
(32:55):
And even certain people, everytime I mean, I can do it.
Every time I read it, I mightwant to tweak something a little
bit.
Yes.
And and so you you have to youshow kind of the delays this is
causing, you know, by every timeit goes back and what it's
doing to the teams.
I think a lot of people think,well, what's the big deal?
It's just like we're justchanging a sentence, it takes
two seconds.
Takes two seconds, but myteam's having to touch it again.
(33:19):
We don't sit around and justwait for your change, right?
We have all this in queue andstart to show the impacts it has
um every time we have to touchit.
Um, and then lay it out to likeyou have you have two chances.
Maybe that's what I like tosay.
You get two reviews, you get aninitial review review, and then
you get a final review.
And then you don't get to lookat it again unless something is
legally or technically wrong.
(33:40):
Yeah.
It's going out.
Michael Hartmann (33:42):
Yeah.
Penny Hill (33:42):
And we get sign-off too.
Like I think too, when you havea sign off.
And I have found change isalways hard at first, people
push back, but after you do it acouple of times, everyone's
comfortable.
Um, and they're happier.
And same thing on the web.
I've had that too, like whereyou can't get a web page out.
Oh, because we just are justiterating it.
And it's like, can we just getsome?
We have nothing.
We need we need this content upthere.
(34:04):
When is it 80%?
When is it good enough?
And then we can start, we caniterate on it later.
Michael Hartmann (34:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's likewell, it and that applies, I
think, to a lot of the things wedo in marketing ops, right?
This is an obvious one whereit's sort of public-facing
stuff, but also things like umdo the lead scoring model.
Like, like I've like one of thethings I've had to really get
past with people is like, hey,this is not your one and only
chance to change lead scoring.
(34:30):
Like, if we're dying thisright, we're gonna try to get it
as where we feel comfortablewith it, but we're gonna keep an
eye on it, right?
You know, if something changes,yeah, we're gonna change the
model.
And yeah, that's okay and to beexpected, and we should be
doing that together.
And so I think a lot of a lotof people have been in the
minutes like that's their oneand only time to do a piece of
(34:52):
content or a change in theprocess.
And I think that's that's themistake I think a lot of teams
get into.
Yeah.
And to be fair, I think a lotof marketing ops people tend to
go that way, right?
They become rigid in how theyapproach things.
And I think that's that's amistake that they need to when
they do that.
Penny Hill (35:11):
Yeah.
We can overcome that that'spart of where we overcomplicate
it too, I think.
And um, I think, you know,actually I just had this
conversation about lead scoring,and I just had this
conversation too about acampaign hierarchy.
You know, it's like we aregoing to monitor this and we can
change it and build things in away you can change them.
Yeah.
You know, your your lead scoringmodel, hopefully you build it
(35:32):
in a way that you can adjustscores, you can add and take,
you know, add things and takethem away.
That's what we should be doingas ops.
Um, campaign hierarchy, that'sanother thing.
You know, you don't have tohave it all figured out right
now that's overwhelming.
Like, let's put it together,then let's see how it's really
gonna flow through um to ourreporting and then change it.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (35:51):
So totally, totally agree.
Um I'll kind of circle back toour kind of where we started a
little bit and this whole ideaof the credit game, because it's
really still sort of beenbothering me.
So um let's so we you and Ihave both been in leadership
(36:13):
roles, and then maybe it makesit a little bit easier.
And we've been, you know, forthose people who are listening
or watching who maybe are asmall team or a team of one, or
have particularly challengingstakeholders in the
organization, like how would youcoach them on how to approach
(36:34):
this conversation to start toget past the credit game and all
that?
Penny Hill (36:44):
I think, I mean, I would I would coach them that
they need to start speaking up.
I think a lot of times,especially in ops, marketing
ops, we stay really quietbecause we don't feel like our
voice, you know, should beheard, or maybe we don't feel
like we're right or wondering.
And I I think you should alwaysbe speaking up with what you
see and bring data behind it toshow.
Um and and try to, I think it'salways helpful to pivot the
(37:08):
conversation to what matters,right?
Even if it's not as good of alight for marketing.
At the end of the day, we needto make sure we're always
looking at truth.
And something I look at a lotand I've seen it happen in a lot
of orgs.
And it's, you know, when we'retalking about sourcing, um,
marketing's sourcing all this.
We're doing fantastic, right?
Oh, but our closed one ratesare abysmal and we're not
bringing the revenue.
Well, what's happening here?
(37:29):
Um, are we just really the bestthing that's ever been there in
your sales team is just theworst sales team in the world?
Michael Hartmann (37:35):
Right.
Penny Hill (37:35):
Probably not, right?
What like we need to like stepback and look at different
metrics.
And that's a place wheresourcing, you know, doesn't
really mean anything, but like,what are we sending over?
Is it quality?
Yeah.
What are we doing, doing here?
And um, and I think a lot of II think that's a good way
sometimes to start to pivot thesourcing question because I
think sometimes you'll see thatum when you're having that
(37:57):
conversation.
And it helps even if you'rehaving to say, maybe what we're
doing in marketing isn't asgreat as we've been reporting.
We still need to talk aboutthat, right?
So we can do better and we'relooking at the right things,
kind of owning um and beinghonest about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and it's fine.
Like I think, I mean, I've I'vewalked walked through this with
(38:17):
a few orgs.
There's no one's ever losttheir job at the end of the, you
know, because like it's kind ofcame to light, maybe what we're
doing isn't the best thing,right?
People pivot, they startfocusing on what matters, and
and but teams grow and they dobetter.
So I think it just people get alittle scared.
Michael Hartmann (38:34):
Yeah.
I mean, I think um Yeah, myfirst thought when you said said
that is that like typicallyit's not one of the other,
right?
These things are complicated,especially the the bigger the
org and the more complicated theproduct and the sales cycle and
all that, right?
There's lots of factors that gointo it.
So pointing fingers at onething is gonna probably not
(38:57):
really be the case, like thesolution.
Penny Hill (38:59):
No, um, it never is.
Michael Hartmann (39:01):
Yeah, and I and I think the other thought I
had was kind of go it goes backto something we talked about a
little bit is like reachingacross, like putting out the
olive branch to some degree.
But I think I would go a stepfurther, like start today, if
you haven't already done it,with getting to know your
counterparts and what it is thatthey're doing, right?
(39:21):
Yeah, go hang out with them fora day.
Go sit if you can go sit onsales calls, right?
That'd be huge.
Like, I think that would beeye-opening for people who've
never done it.
Yeah.
And um really like go in therewith the idea that you want to
learn, right?
Like that's yeah, because Ithink then when it gets to those
tough conversations, yeah,you've got a little bit of a
(39:44):
relationship you can build on.
Um the risk I think people whoare listening would run into
with what you said is that youyou know speak up, totally
agree, but how you speak upmatters.
That's true.
Yes.
And if you haven't built somecredibility, um, and say that
maybe that's not your strongsuit is communicating difficult
(40:07):
things, which is very common.
Yeah.
Then um like you if you've gotsome credibility and you build
up some trust, you you can getpast that a lot easier.
Penny Hill (40:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's that's I think areally good point.
And we should be working um tobuild those bridges, you know,
with our peers on the otherside, within marketing, but
within sales as well.
I agree.
Yeah, correct.
It's so important.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (40:31):
I mean, I like a simple, like for me, things
as simple as going to see whatit's like for a salesperson to
go update an opportunity inSalesforce or whatever.
So you like if you've not seenlike what are the steps that go
into that and what they'rerequired to do.
And if you're a kind of anorganization has, you know,
(40:52):
maybe you subscribe to one ofthe sales methodologies that
requires you to have meetcertain hurdles, right?
Yeah.
To move something from onestage to another, right?
It's it's not it's not hard,but it's not trivial either,
right?
And it's cumbersome and yeah,it's probably unless you're in a
like a high volume thing, it'snot something they're probably
(41:13):
doing every day.
So yeah.
And when we go and give them ahard time about not doing that,
it's like yeah.
Yeah, we don't understand.
Yeah.
But and then then then I canthen you can have the
conversations.
And by the way, changing an ememail five different times for
five different people, right?
This is why it's yes, it's nothard, but it's but in aggregate,
(41:37):
right?
It starts to become a problem,right?
Yeah.
So yeah.
Anyway.
So when like I know you've youkind of recently um started
working with a client, like whatyou've also probably gone into
other organizations.
What are some of the things youlook for or things where you
see like signs that there's someof that complexity is has crept
(42:01):
into the organization and youknow where that you need to go
try to simplify some of that.
Penny Hill (42:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I look at one of thethings I'd look at, I look at
what are people reporting on,what are people like talking
about, like, and see if there'salignment.
Um, I think that's a big one.
I think, you know, at a highlevel, if you see marketing's
coming to the table with thesenumbers and sales is coming to
(42:31):
the table of these numbers,which happens, um, that's a huge
red flag that there there issome missing alignment.
And even within marketingteams, you'll start, especially
larger orgs, you'll see wherelike different groups are kind
of reporting things differentlyand talking about things
differently.
Um, so when I come in and Istart talking to people, that's
kind of some of the things I'mlooking for.
(42:52):
Like, you know, what like arewe all on the same team here,
really?
Yeah.
Um, marching, you know, in thesame band, um, or are we really
looking at these thingsdifferently?
So that's probably some of myfirst indicators.
Like, what are the metrics andthe the things you're talking
about?
Michael Hartmann (43:09):
Have you um, I know like one of the things
I've I've noticed, and this isprobably especially true in
large organizations, is um theteam that I see get squeezed a
lot is like a creative team.
Like like getting them tounderstand like what's what
what's their day-to-day like,um, in terms of especially
within the marketing or me, thatthat to me, yeah, they tend to
(43:31):
get squeezed from all sides,right?
Penny Hill (43:34):
Yes.
Yes.
And a lot of, I mean, I see it.
I don't know if this iseverywhere, but I've always seen
it more than marketing.
You've got like everyone's kindof reaching out to them, like
all over, you got accountingasking them for things.
Right.
You know, like they just can't.
Michael Hartmann (43:47):
Yeah.
Penny Hill (43:48):
Yeah.
It can get it can get reallyhard.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (43:51):
Yeah.
It's it's funny because a lotof times where I've put in place
like project management systemsfor marketing teams, the team
that's usually the one drivingit and really asking for is the
creative team.
Because they're they'refielding so many random
requests.
And they don't always know howtheir bit fits into the bigger
picture of something.
Well, the reason I understandis like that's also like that
(44:13):
when I think about those processthings that are getting in the
way of being able to executequickly and consistently and
confidently because they're tiedinto so many things.
That's usually where I findlike I'll hear about those
first.
So it's interesting.
Yeah.
I hadn't actually thought aboutit until just now that you're
getting it real time for me.
Penny Hill (44:33):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (44:35):
Anyway.
Penny Hill (44:36):
Yeah, and I think that's the kind of stuff too,
like your creative team and ops.
Like I see this with theoperations teams.
Um, we can start to kind ofcall out because a lot of times
we're the ones that see themisalignment because we see
everything kind of coming at us.
And we can be like, oh, wait,everyone's trying to do
different things to the sameaudience, or you know, things
like that.
(44:56):
Um, and so that's hopefully,and that's where I really want
sometimes that marketingoperations professionals don't
stand, don't speak up.
And they they need to.
Like you're the one that seesit, you're kind of that linchpin
in all of it.
Um, start to flag.
People may not listen, right?
But at least you're starting tovoice it and we can start
(45:16):
having those conversations.
Michael Hartmann (45:18):
Yeah, I think I think if you can do that, and
if you're doing it in a way thatis, you're thinking like the
it's I was gonna say obvious.
That's maybe too strong, butlike it's where it's obvious
where you are you have the bestinterests of the organization
overall and customers, then Ithink you're gonna you like
(45:39):
you'll you're gonna get heardmore.
So yeah, pointing it out andmaking suggestions of how things
could be simplified, kind ofgoing back to the original
fling.
I I'm I I think you we're usedto in like I'm a big believer in
um simple the simpler we canmake things, whether it's
(46:00):
process, technologycombinations, things like that,
that can accommodate that takethe 8020 rule, right?
Um and enables us to move andpivot quickly.
Like I would take that oversomething that encapsulates all
you know 100 billion differentvariations of something we might
have to deal with every time.
And then get 100%.
(46:21):
And then trust people to makeinformed and good decisions
along the way, right?
Where there are exceptions.
Penny Hill (46:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause when you've got you'vegot system and pro systems and
processes built for all theexceptions that you've just
tried to make perfect, it evenif you have it perfect for a
minute, it's not going to last.
And five years down the road,you've got a mess.
Yeah.
Everyone that built it is gone.
They have no idea why the whyanything's like it.
It's duct taped together, it'sfalling apart every time you
(46:48):
look at it.
Um, and it's really a mess tountangle.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Where if you just would havestarted simply, you would have
had something sustainable.
Yeah.
And it it, you know.
Michael Hartmann (46:59):
Yeah.
I mean, at the end of the day,like I where I lean towards is I
I I would rather trust peopleto do the right thing with
guardrails than to try to buildsomething that um well, at your
point, right, will likely notfor the long term eliminate the
like errors or problems.
(47:20):
Because it's just like thereare gonna be exceptions you
couldn't think of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting stuff.
Um, well, I hope I hope thishelps some of our listeners out
there because I think um I feellike I'm uh I'm a lone voice out
there sometimes, so I'm glad tohave somebody else who's in.
I can't help the same that wedisagree about attribution
(47:40):
versus contribution, but um, Ithink we both agree that they
both play a role in some plays,right?
Some way.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just a matter of how weuse them.
So Penny, lots of fun asalways.
So if if uh if folks want tohear a little more about you and
what you're doing, want to godeeper on this with you, maybe
what's the best way for them todo that?
Penny Hill (48:00):
Yeah, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Michael Hartmann (48:02):
LinkedIn.
Like I'm just gonna say we'rejust gonna tell people that now.
Like I think I think I've hadmaybe a handful of people who's
not said LinkedIn.
Yeah.
Some will sometimes sayLinkedIn and my website or
whatever, but you know.
Um all right, well, thank youagain.
It's been a lot of fun.
I'm glad you're able to makethis work on the week after
Muffs Balooza 25.
(48:24):
So uh I appreciate that to allof our listeners and audience
out there.
Thank you for your support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can reach out to Naomi,Mike, or me, and we'd be happy
to get the ball rolling on it.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
Penny Hill (48:41):
Bye, thank you.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpscast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered byother MoPros out there.
I'm your host Michael Hartman.
Flying a bit solo.
This is the first episode we'rerecording after Mops Blues of
2025.
So I'm sure Mike and Numi arerecovering from that.
But I'm powering on.
So I am joined today by PennyHill.
She's the founder and principalconsultant at Three Threads
(00:47):
Consulting.
Penny has built her career atthe intersection of marketing,
operations, and strategy,helping teams simplify
complexity, bridge gaps betweendepartments, and make data
meaningful.
Today, she and I are going tobe talking about one of the most
common sources of friction inGoToMarket teams, attribution
and alignment.
Why do so many teams fight overcredit?
What does marketingcontribution actually mean?
(01:08):
And how can simplifying ourmetrics and our conversations
lead to better results?
So, Penny, welcome to the show.
Penny Hill (01:14):
Again.
Hey, yeah, thank you.
Yes, yes.
Thanks for having me.
Michael Hartmann (01:18):
Yeah.
I like this is a little bit oddbecause I think we scheduled
this before you're on anotherepisode that we already recorded
because we did the one withLeslie and all the others.
Um that's this is fun.
Yeah.
Can you do it twice?
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
Anyway, well, good, good tohave you again.
Um, all right.
Once I know you and I havetalked about this, but um and
(01:42):
I'll tell you my version of thisif you want, but you said that
both marketing and executivesacross businesses have a
tendency to overcomplicatethings, especially in the
marketing world, I think.
So, like for me, I often findmyself telling marketers like
you're caring about stuff thatonly marketers care about, um,
which is maybe a slightvariance, but like what does
that look like to you inpractice?
And why do you think it happensso much?
Penny Hill (02:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I thinkwe tend to overcome
overcomplicate a lot of things.
And we really see it when we'retalking reporting and
attribution models.
Um, and there's a few ways thatI see this.
One way is, you know, we can weend up having different
attribution models for differentchannels, right?
Or segments.
Um, we're hyper focusing on allthe differences.
(02:24):
So now we have all of thesemodels.
Um, or we have too many, maybeit's all the same channel, the
same.
We don't have it differencesper channel, but we have too
many attribution models.
We're looking at every singlecut of this.
We've got it feeding our data.
Um, now everything's justmuddied because we we we're
looking at too much.
And you can also have it wherewe don't have one at all, or
(02:46):
maybe we have one, but no one'susing it because we just can't
come to an agreement on what itshould be.
And I think at the end of theday, a lot of times this happens
because we get really, reallystuck in exceptions.
So we're really focused on thedetails, we're digging into the
weaves of everything, and wewant it to be perfect, and it's
just not going to be.
(03:07):
Like perfection should not beour goal, really, with anything,
but certainly not an enterpriseB2B.
Michael Hartmann (03:13):
Yeah, I tell people perfection is first off,
it's an impossible thing, right?
That's I used to I worked witha CMO who's like, uh, what does
beautiful look like?
And I was like, I hate thatquestion.
You know, like I understandlike like what's the best work
we can do, but like I just it'sjust so hard to to get to.
(03:35):
And like I think yeah, I mean,I I look at the world as
trade-offs.
Very different thing than likewhat's right, what's wrong.
So I think there's very fewthings that are like that.
So um yeah.
Yeah, I mean what do you likewhat do you what do you think is
the big driver though?
(03:55):
Like I I do think this is tendsto be I mean, I don't know.
I maybe it's the same same casein other functional areas, but
it feels like marketing is uhparticularly susceptible to this
like overcomplication of stuff.
Do you think it's unique tothat?
Or do you think it's somethingthat is common across other b
business functions?
Penny Hill (04:19):
I mean I guess I mean most of my career I've been
in marketing.
Um being in ops, you know, youtouch a lot of things, and I
feel like I mean, I seecomplication in customer
service.
I see you see complication insales.
Um, I think we all tend to doit.
I really do.
I don't know if it's justmarketing.
Um, I think an example is ICP.
(04:41):
I see that a lot.
And that's marketing and sales,and you might have customer,
you know, the customer successteam.
You've got lots of orgs inthere.
Um giving opinions on ICP andwe'll end up making it so
granular, you can'toperationalize it.
We just overcomplicate itlooking for perfection.
Um, I mean, sometimes it's andit's also because you have too
many cooks in the kitchen.
I think that that can drive alot of it too.
(05:03):
When you've got everyone thatkind of gets everyone gets to
have an opinion on it, oreveryone gets to kind of drive
the decision.
I guess everyone can have anopinion, but at the end of the
day, you have to have, you know,a few key, key people that will
will drive what happens.
Um, and you've got to at somepoint stop showing it to people,
stop getting input.
Right.
Michael Hartmann (05:21):
Or you'll just keep I know what one of the
things I run into is wherepeople want to and like try to
solve for every every particularscenario that might possibly
occur.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I create it the the thepeople who aren't into sports
might not get it, but like ifyou lift the rule book for the
(05:42):
NFL, it just keeps gettingbigger and bigger and bigger
because they try to type rulesfor all kinds of different
scenarios that are unique.
Whereas, and I'm less familiarwith FIFA and the world of
actual like football for therest of the world, but like that
meanup is pretty simple andleaves a lot to interpretation
in the moment, which I like Ithat I tend to gravitate towards
(06:04):
that.
And I think a lot of people,maybe it's an American thing,
like where you want to solve forevery scenario.
I don't know.
Penny Hill (06:11):
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, I do.
I I I see that in theattribution models for sure,
people trying to do that.
Like that's we get in trouble.
Least and I always, you know,early, huh?
Yeah, and leading scorescoring.
Yeah, yes, for sure.
For sure.
And it's funny, early in mycareer, like actually not even
my career, this is when I thiswas when I was in high school, I
made maps and I I did this fora government contractor.
(06:32):
And it's funny because theyalways said, like, and we made
maps by hand and everything, youknow, had to be done pretty
well.
And but they always said, goodenough for government work.
That was something I alwaysheard, good enough for
government work.
And it was, it was just thislike, it's like 80% good.
It's we're not looking forperfection with this because
we'll be here all day.
Um, and that I mean, that'ssomething that stayed with me my
(06:53):
whole life.
I think that a lot.
Like, well, we're at this isgood enough for government work.
This is we're at the 80%.
This is good.
Michael Hartmann (06:59):
Yeah.
You know, I mean, that's to me,there's a another analogy of
like strategy, right?
I think again, I think peopletend to overcomplicate strategy.
And a book that I read yearsago, gosh, it's I don't even
know how old it is now.
It's got to be in the 20, 15,20 years old, is called
Execution.
It's kind of a scary executive,the discipline of getting
things done.
(07:19):
And it kind of like it was theone for me where I was like,
because I was in strategy andconsulting work at the time, and
um, it really changed the way Ithought about it.
Like, strategy is important,but uh, it doesn't really mean a
whole lot if you can't actuallyexecute on it and hold people,
hold yourselves and othersaccountable for the results.
And so it was a big for me, itwas a big mind shift to go into
(07:41):
that model of like execution isat least as important, maybe
more important than strategy.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
So what what are your thoughtsevery time?
I mentioned, yeah, I mentionedup front, but it was
attribution, and I know thatprobably you and I both have had
a lot of conversations aboutattribution.
I think with your consultingwork now, you've probably had
(09:02):
more recently too.
But like I in fact, I was justtalking to somebody else about a
potential of being a guest, andit was like attribution was
maybe one of the topics.
And like I was like, itcontinues to be a topic that is
of interest and and a challengefor a lot of people.
Like, why, like, why do youthink it's continues to be such
(09:22):
a pain point?
Penny Hill (09:26):
You know, I think, and it it really is for
everyone.
Every everyone I've talked to,I think every company, and
there's been quite a few umsince I went out of my own,
attribution has it has been somesource of pain for them.
Either they needed to set it upor it was there, but it's not
working quite like they want itto.
Um, and I think it's because wejust tie so much to it,
(09:47):
especially as marketers, so manycompanies, um, you know, your
your marketing goals are basedoff source pipeline, um which is
isn't something I necessarilyagree with.
But even if you don't havesource pipeline, you've got to,
you've got to show what revenueyou're generating, right?
We got to prove there's valuein the marketing we're doing.
Um, and so you've got it, youknow, where are we attributing
that revenue?
(10:07):
Um, I just think we tie, and werightly so tie so much to
revenue and marketing, right?
That we tie so much to thesemodels um that we then tend to
overcomplicate them because wewant to make sure we get credit
where we're putting our time.
Michael Hartmann (10:21):
Yeah.
Well, it's funny because I likeI tell people all the time I
have this sort of I loverelationship with attribution
modeling.
But like my point is like itdoesn't like even the simplest
attribution models arecomplicated math if you're not
kind of a math wonk.
And so it and it as soon assomeone sees something in the
(10:43):
model that they don't agreewith, right?
It it undermines the overallmessage rather than supporting
it.
So I have yeah, I've tended toshy away from it a little bit.
Um, I haven't totally thrown itout.
Yeah, because I think there'sthere's value in it still.
Um we can get to this a littlebit later though, too, because
(11:06):
like I think there's also likewho you're sharing it with
matters.
But um yeah, you also mentionedcontribution, right?
It's I think you and I actuallywent back and forth on this
when we were talking about thisat one point.
Like I because of my kind ofchange in mindset about
attribution, I have probablymoved more towards, I think I
(11:26):
like the idea of acontribution-based model, right?
Where you have some sort ofthere's some assumptions here
that there's some agreementabout how we're measuring, you
know, who sourced the thepipeline revenue um up front, so
we're not spending time inreviews about that, um, and
agreeing that there's probablygoing to be some where it's
right and some where it's wrong.
And so fine, we're all workingtowards the same big number.
(11:49):
But like I think you like,where do you lean on that?
You know, do you lean moretowards like I think you
attribution reporting is alittle better or or
contribution-based stuff, orlike what do you, what's your
take on that?
Penny Hill (12:02):
Yeah, so when it comes to marketing, I think um I
personally feel we should onlybe looking at what does
marketing influence.
So more of that, you know, whatwhat part of revenue um is
marketing touching?
I do not, I I don't likemarketing source those marketing
contribution um models.
And I mean, I've done them, Ido them like most companies do
(12:23):
them.
Um, but I just think it causes,it just causes a lot of it
causes a lot of infightingbetween sales and marketing.
And at the end of the day, weneed to be on the same team as
them.
And that's my goal.
Usually my goal is to alignwith sales.
Our goal in marketing is is tohelp sales, right?
We, we are, we are there to tokind of help move that pipeline
(12:45):
um, you know, down the funneland make it bigger, right?
Make it close faster.
Like that's the kind of stuffwe're doing in the enterprise
B2B space.
Um, it doesn't necessarilymatter who sources it.
I don't think that, you know,but you just you don't have a
person that raises their hand ona demo form and then just walks
through and is the influenceror decision maker on the closed
(13:05):
one opportunity anymore.
That that's just not thebuying.
Yeah.
That's not the that's not howhow they buy.
And you know, not that it neverhappens, but it's in general,
that's not.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so I just think it causes,I don't know how many times like
you end up just fighting withsales or like, but we really did
this.
And you look in the data andthey may have, right?
Because whatever model you do,it's made up.
(13:28):
It's a little finger in thewind of where are we gonna set
it.
Um yeah.
So yeah, so I do, I I likemoving away from that.
You know, you're notmarketing's not sourcing it.
Maybe you have sales of SDRsource, like I I could see value
in that um to see kind of whichof those orcs is bringing it
in.
But when marketing comes along,I like to see that they are
(13:49):
influencing it.
Michael Hartmann (13:51):
Yeah.
So you you don't uh like if youfound less of that um
infighting when you usemarketing at attribute
attributed.
Yes.
Yeah, really.
Penny Hill (14:01):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, if we can anytime yousay marketing source something,
I feel like sales gets like getsa little kind of defensive or
can, you know, they just theycreate the pipeline, right?
Like that's that's their job,that's what they do.
Michael Hartmann (14:16):
Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, because I I have I mean,part of why I have shied away
from it.
I mean, not to get too far downanother rabbit hole, like I've
kind of gone.
I mean, I think the flaws ineither one of those, if that's
the only things you're lookingat.
I've had more luck with goingat it with a different tack,
(14:37):
which is less about pure numbersand more about story, right?
So yeah, looking at um likerecently won deals that are
hopefully representative like ofa more of a bigger pattern, and
looking at across that thatthat buyer's journey, if you
will, like what were all thedifferent touch points that
(14:59):
maybe had an influence and umthe timing of them and things
like that, and telling thatstory rather than trying to go
like, here's this complicatedmodel or this, you know,
complicated way that we'reagreeing, we've said that we're
gonna say who sourced this deal,right?
And focus more on like whatwere the things that what are
the things that happen when wewin and when we don't win?
(15:21):
And yeah, and that I've I'vefound works better with the
broader audience than any ofthose model kind of things do.
Have you ever tried anythinglike that?
Penny Hill (15:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think that's a piece,I mean, to me, and maybe maybe
I'm thinking about itdifferently or or wrong, but
that's a piece of the model.
Like, because when, you know, Ilook at it as when we we do a
model, we do an attributionmodel, or my team does one, we
have laid out every single touchpoint.
Like the goal is we've gotevery single touch point there
in our data that then we can dowhat we please with.
(15:53):
And part of it is thatmulti-touch attribution, looking
at like what all is happeningon this opportunity.
And I do think that's the beststory to tell.
It's very easy to tell one byone.
I think sometimes you need away to be able to say
holistically, like what ishappening.
And especially like for yourcampaign managers.
Like, I'm putting money in ads.
Are they in are you know,what's happening with them?
(16:14):
Okay.
Well, we see people that areinteracting with their ads.
Now we see they're on theseopportunities or whatever.
Like we can see that'sinfluencing this kind of hype.
Michael Hartmann (16:23):
Yeah, and that's I think that's kind of
getting it what I was talkingabout about who sees this
reporting, right?
I I am a big believer thatattribution reporting should be
used, certainly withinmarketing, but definitely with
like if you've got campaignmanager type rules, right?
They should be, yeah.
I mean, if I was in theirshoes, I'd want to know, like,
as soon as my campaigns werelaunching, right?
How are they performing?
(16:44):
And uh across a number ofmetrics, including are they
driving pipeline revenue or atleast having some influence on
it?
So, like to me, that's what Iwas talking about, like having
the right audience.
But I don't think you werewrong, like uh so you guys said
if you're not if you'reunderstanding it right or not.
I think we're saying kind ofthe same thing, right?
Like there's an agabit levelattribution reporting, but then
(17:05):
if you go down to specificcases, right, it brings such
numbers to life.
And that, like I literally, youknow, I've been in rooms where
I wasn't doing the I was justdoing the attribution reporting,
like with sales teams, and youknow, people were not paying
attention, you know.
The town like and then weswitched to doing these stories
(17:25):
about specific ones, and peoplewere leading in, and the body
like they're just the bodylanguage is different.
And then over time, right, theconversations I was having with
those teams changed too.
Penny Hill (17:36):
Yeah.
So either I guess yeah, yeah,it's it's we're we're doing all
of it, I think, you know, withdifferent audiences.
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (17:46):
And I the reason I bring it like it's it's
it's not an easily scalable,repeatable thing, but it almost
shouldn't be, right?
Because you're looking atspecific cases, but it's it
requires some, you know, I goback to my playing defense and
basketball, right?
It's an effort-based thing,right?
You have to put some effort into do that and to build a story,
(18:08):
but I think it pays dividends,especially outside of marketing.
Yeah, so I mean that's yeah,no, I agree with that.
All right, we should stop rightthere.
I like that.
No.
Um let's see.
So you you you've touched onthis too, right?
So there's a little bit of thisthat is about getting credit,
(18:29):
um, which I yeah, I strugglewith that as the right goal, but
um when you see when you seethat in these organizations
where there's this sort ofcredit, credit gaming, credit
game that's going on betweenmarketing and sales or marketing
sales BDRs, depending on wherethey're structured, like um like
(18:51):
what like what's your what doesthat tell you about those
organizations in terms of youknow what's working well, what's
not working well?
Penny Hill (19:00):
Yeah, I would say, you know, when I see this
between any group, you see it alot between sales and marketing.
Um, you can see it even withinmarketing, you're there's not
alignment, like they're not onthe same team.
And I think you know, it reallyshows that division when we're
fighting over credit.
It's part of why I like to takesourcing out of it, because I
think it helps take the creditout of the equation.
Um, because it doesn't matter,we're all on the same team,
(19:21):
right?
I mean, we all win whenever,you know, that we get that
pipeline, we get that closedone.
Um, we all lose if we don't,regardless of who sources the
pipeline.
Um, so I I think um I think itreally can show a lot of
division.
I think it's very common.
Like this isn't to me, this ispart of the it's it's like a
(19:42):
stretch goal wherever you are,right?
You're really trying to getthat alignment with sales and
working at it.
Um and I I even when there aresourcing models, like where it's
like marketing, marketing, youknow, kind of has goals based on
how much pipeline they source,I tend to go into calls, like
kind of throwing that off thetable.
Like, you know, yeah, pipelinejurors, we're here to help you.
How can we help you?
(20:03):
What are we doing to help you?
Michael Hartmann (20:05):
So I'm I was curious.
Do you do you have an exampleyou can share or a general
approach to that?
Because I like I like that, butlike sometimes it's hard
getting people to change theirmind.
Like, oh, we like I see jobdescriptions, for example, like
for marketing apps roles, andit's like build attribution
models, and like to me, is alike a major thing.
(20:25):
Um, and that's not again not tosay that it's wrong, but like I
find the same thing, right?
We whether it's attributionmodeling or contribution
approach, there's struggles withthat, getting that alignment.
Um, but yeah, yet what youdescribed there sounds
interesting, but I don't knowwhat that like kind of trying to
think about like what does thatlook like on the ground, if you
(20:47):
will.
Penny Hill (20:48):
Yeah, so I think what it looks like, I would
you're kind of when you'reworking with sales, you don't
want to talk about sourcing.
You're talking about thingsabout like here's everything
marketing is doing in marketing.
You're looking at those dealskind of like you were talking
about.
We're showing them, here's anopportunity, right?
Here's everything we'vetouched.
And then hopefully, if if ifit's working like we want it to,
(21:10):
we can start to show, like whenmarketing's in the deal, when
we are in the account, we'reseeing, you know, higher revenue
from it.
Maybe we're seeing it, youknow, be faster.
It's going to close win faster.
When you can start to look, youknow, some of those A BM
metrics that we pull together,you can start to kind of do
those just A-B comparisons andmake it really, really clear.
(21:30):
And I've always found that'sreally helpful when you can show
that.
You can show the win rate toanother one.
You're it's a higher win ratewhen we are surrounding the
account and we're in there withyou.
And regardless of whether alead came in originally from us,
it doesn't matter.
Like if you take that off thetable and you just talk about
what are we doing to help youwith these and these accounts
(21:51):
and these opportunities.
Michael Hartmann (21:52):
Do you find that you because somebody has to
take the first step towardsthat?
Do you find that that's you'rein the kind of a marketing or
marketing ops role, having to bethe one that takes that first
step?
Penny Hill (22:03):
Yes.
Yes.
I yeah.
I have I've found it, but I'vea lot of times I'm the one
that's kind of helping to drivethat.
So it's, you know, I mean,there can be organizations where
sales is driving that as well,I'm sure.
Michael Hartmann (22:14):
Sure.
Yeah.
I just like I my my that's myexperience too, is it um, I
mean, like maybe not quitealigned with what you were
talking about in general, butlike I think part of this in
quotes lack of alignment betweenmarketing and sales is because
they speak different languages alot of cases.
And so I know I find myselfpart of this is I worked in
(22:37):
sales for a brief period of mycareer, right?
So I appreciate the challengesand nuances of that and what
they're expected to deliver on,et cetera, et cetera.
And you know, I try to I try tobring that to the conversation.
Um and where I can, right, ifthey've they're coming and
they're asking for something, orif we're going to them to ask
(23:00):
for something, right, someupdate to Salesforce or CRM,
whatever, right, then that we'reI'm thinking about it from
their perspective and showingthat, right?
And so so working with yeah, Imean, like one of the examples I
have is like a company I was atwhere um I inherited some
already stuff in in flight thatwas changing, impacting the
(23:20):
sales organization, and the toplevel sales leadership was
aligned.
But what I found, the problemwas it was like the next level
down, the next level down,right?
That's not like it hadn'treally been embedded there.
And so when I started to lookat making changes from what was
originally the original strategythat I inherited, I
(23:41):
specifically asked for what Icall the tenants, right?
The people who are kind ofcloser to the impact and
building relationships with themas well, right?
And it took a little bit oftime to do that.
Um, and sometimes that meantdoing something kind of to help
them, right?
Something to like show that Iwas trying to listen and help so
(24:04):
that when I went back to them,I could, you know, I'd build
some credibility.
Penny Hill (24:08):
For sure.
Yeah, for sure.
No, I I think that's reallyimportant.
Um, I know I was actuallytelling some people on my team
recently, I mean, sellers areour customer.
And and I know this isn't, youknow, marketers don't like to
hear it, but at the end of theday, they're kind of our most
important customer.
Everything we do has to workfor them.
(24:29):
Um, and it has to driverevenue, and they're the ones
that are putting revenue on thebooks.
So, like we really have to takethem into account.
Um, not that we don't focus, Imean, we're marketing ops, we're
certainly supporting marketing.
I'm not saying we don't, butwe've got to make sure we're
aligned with the sellers, we'retaking them into account, and
we're communicating with them insome way.
Michael Hartmann (24:47):
So yeah, I I mean, I it's I'm laughing.
Well, I have two reactions toyou then like one is like I hate
the idea of internal customers,but like I'll let that go.
Um I just and part of that'sbecause of this other part,
which is I there's I've talkedabout this probably multiple
times on the podcast.
And I know I've talked to otherpeople about there's this book
I got years and years ago calledHow to Be a Marketing
Superstar, which is this sillyname.
(25:08):
Right.
Um basically it was likeeverybody's paycheck would say
this is customer money.
And I think if we lose like inwhat we're doing, um, no matter
what role you're in in anorganization, right?
Because he kind of made it likeif we don't hit our revenue
(25:29):
numbers, like it impactseverybody.
Penny Hill (25:32):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (25:32):
So um, and we need salespeople to do that
final mile.
It doesn't matter how much wecan do it.
Like if that doesn't happen,then they have, yeah.
So enabling them is huge.
I would say the other flipside, which I'm really this is
where I think AI, I'm and I knowpeople are doing this, but I
haven't had a chance to do it isyou know uh using technology
(25:56):
and AI, like recordings of salescalls to feed back into product
marketing and sales enablementteams, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, what should we how shouldwe be talking about our
products and services to themarket?
Um, I think too much it's toooften it gets siloed, right?
And the content that'spublished is not really useful.
(26:17):
It doesn't really resonate withthe market, sales teams don't
use it, right?
We all get frustrated.
Yes.
So like now we can takeadvantage of that.
So yeah.
Penny Hill (26:27):
Yeah, no, that is that's a really good use case.
Michael Hartmann (26:29):
Yeah.
Tell me when you're using it.
Okay, so hands into this too,and maybe we could like take
this a little bit on anotherlevel of detail later later from
where we were, but you know, soone of the things about
measurement, there's lots ofdifferent metrics in marketing,
(26:51):
lots of data.
Um, one of the things that I'vetalked about before, I would
like to get your thoughts on ismatching the type of metric and
the level of it to the audiencewho's gonna be receiving it,
right?
So we kind of talked about liketo me, attribution reporting,
try to do that to say like a CFOor even the other senior
(27:13):
leadership is probably not gonnago over really well because
it's complicated.
But like there, I'm sure thereare exceptions.
But what's your like, what doyou think?
How do you think about theright metrics or measurements or
reporting to do for differenttypes of audiences within an
organization?
Penny Hill (27:31):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think you've got
you've got to do that and youhave different views.
And I think you get, you know,your executives.
I mean, just simply you'rethey're just gonna be really
higher level.
Like you're gonna be focused onrevenue, you're gonna be
focused on overall revenue.
Um, maybe you have a percentthat's marketing influence,
maybe a lot of times you do havesourced, like this, this is the
source pipeline.
(27:51):
You've got win rates, um,closed one, maybe you're
comparing if marketing touchedor not, but you're still super
high level looking at that,those revenue metrics.
And then on the exact oppositespectrum, say you're marketing
manager.
I mean, that's where you've gotkind of some of what you we
think of as vanity metrics, butyou got clicks, you got opens,
you got views, clicks to open,um, all of that, you know, um
(28:13):
cost per click, all of that kindof stuff that we don't want to
show to the executives, eventhough sometimes people do.
We don't want to do that.
We don't want to get too boundup into them because a lot of
times, you know, especially likeI use emails all the time.
A lot of those metrics aren'treal valid, right?
Every server opens either, orlots of servers open emails,
lots of them click them.
Does not mean someoneinteracted, but directionally,
(28:37):
when you're comparing all youremails, it's really good data
for your marketing manager tosay, hey, what content is
resonating with people?
Um, you know, what what whereshould I pivot?
And things like that.
Yeah.
So so yeah, so I would say that,yeah, like you've got those
very granular dashboards tosomething much, much more high
level.
Michael Hartmann (28:57):
Yeah.
I I mean, I I've certainly justshy away from talking about
vanity metrics because I thinkthey're just metrics too.
Yeah.
Because I and I think you'reright.
The how you use them is more ofwhat it is.
But I also think marketers andlike campaign managers, if you
have those, like I I I thinkit's really valuable to them,
(29:17):
especially um early in the earlystages of a campaign, right?
You like those are the actualnumber, like signals of are
going to tell you whether or notsomething's landing and
working, right?
That's right.
Yeah, are people opening youremails?
Are they reading them?
Are they clicking through?
Are they are they registeringfor your webinar or whatever it
is, right?
And if you're not payingattention to that and you don't
(29:40):
know what to expect from that,then you've got a different
problem.
But it doesn't mean you don'twant the idea of vanity metrics
because I think they're earlyindicators of longer term
success.
Penny Hill (29:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, you definitely needthem.
Michael Hartmann (29:54):
Yeah.
So I mean that's one thing Iwould like any and you said
dashboards.
Like I the other part of this,like I have run into places
where people I get a marketingleader is like, we need
dashboards.
You need a dashboard.
And how is sort of I just sortof like do you not like recoil,
(30:15):
I guess, like to that kind ofrequest?
Because I think I understandthe goal of having a kind of a
comprehensive view into what'shappening within the
organization or whatever.
But I think starting with theidea of a dashboard might be
okay, but I think doing it alittle bit at a time is a better
approach.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Penny Hill (30:34):
Yeah.
So yeah, I definitely can seethat.
I do like dashboards, I likethings being always on or as
always on as your data allows,whatever your refresh rate is,
you know, where executives cango look and see, and your
marketers can be able to justlog in and see you see how
things are doing.
Um, but I also don't get, Ithink we were talking about this
a little bit earlier withperfection.
(30:55):
Like you don't have to waittill you have all the answers.
You don't have to wait till youhave the full strategy of
everything you want to see.
Like we need to be able to kindof move forward and get things
out there.
And you can always change it.
Like if it doesn't work, changeit.
Michael Hartmann (31:07):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think that's a lotof people put a lot of effort
into.
Well, I mean, this is kind ofgets into like a more of an
operational piece, but I like Irun into lots of I run into lots
of places where there's call itI'll be I'll be nice, heavy
review and approval process.
Processes.
Um, yeah.
In some cases, way too much.
And unclear who who gets whogets input and uh feedback
(31:31):
rights and who gets who getschange rights.
I mean, that's like that is awhole separate on it.
But I think um what I coach alot of teams I've worked with
over the past is like if it canreview an approval process, be
smart about where you whereyou're heavier and where you're
lighter, because I don't thinkyou have to treat everything the
same, right?
And I think the example wouldbe email, right?
Once an email is gone, it'sgone.
(31:52):
So probably put a little morereview on that to a degree.
Um but if it's content on yourwebsite, right, you should be
able to change that withinminutes, right?
So doesn't mean you you don'thave any care for it, right?
You still should have highstandards, but like it doesn't
(32:15):
like it doesn't have to be quoteperfect, right?
It can be change it and youshould get it out.
So have you run into thatbefore where there's like kind
of overwhelming ravine approvalsand unclear role.
Oh, yeah.
How have you worked through forsure over either overcoming
that or getting it to change?
Penny Hill (32:35):
Yeah.
So I think I mean you have toshow what the the roadblocks
are, I think.
And it's I'll use email in anexample because I think it's one
a lot of people run into andI've seen it before too.
You've got everyone has a sayin it, right?
Everyone's you know gets toread it and approve it, and they
get to read it and approve itmultiple times.
Yes.
And every time someone newlooks at it, they're gonna maybe
have a way they want to say itdifferently.
(32:55):
And even certain people, everytime I mean, I can do it.
Every time I read it, I mightwant to tweak something a little
bit.
Yes.
And and so you you have to youshow kind of the delays this is
causing, you know, by every timeit goes back and what it's
doing to the teams.
I think a lot of people think,well, what's the big deal?
It's just like we're justchanging a sentence, it takes
two seconds.
Takes two seconds, but myteam's having to touch it again.
(33:19):
We don't sit around and justwait for your change, right?
We have all this in queue andstart to show the impacts it has
um every time we have to touchit.
Um, and then lay it out to likeyou have you have two chances.
Maybe that's what I like tosay.
You get two reviews, you get aninitial review review, and then
you get a final review.
And then you don't get to lookat it again unless something is
legally or technically wrong.
(33:40):
Yeah.
It's going out.
Michael Hartmann (33:42):
Yeah.
Penny Hill (33:42):
And we get sign-off too.
Like I think too, when you havea sign off.
And I have found change isalways hard at first, people
push back, but after you do it acouple of times, everyone's
comfortable.
Um, and they're happier.
And same thing on the web.
I've had that too, like whereyou can't get a web page out.
Oh, because we just are justiterating it.
And it's like, can we just getsome?
We have nothing.
We need we need this content upthere.
(34:04):
When is it 80%?
When is it good enough?
And then we can start, we caniterate on it later.
Michael Hartmann (34:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's likewell, it and that applies, I
think, to a lot of the things wedo in marketing ops, right?
This is an obvious one whereit's sort of public-facing
stuff, but also things like umdo the lead scoring model.
Like, like I've like one of thethings I've had to really get
past with people is like, hey,this is not your one and only
chance to change lead scoring.
(34:30):
Like, if we're dying thisright, we're gonna try to get it
as where we feel comfortablewith it, but we're gonna keep an
eye on it, right?
You know, if something changes,yeah, we're gonna change the
model.
And yeah, that's okay and to beexpected, and we should be
doing that together.
And so I think a lot of a lotof people have been in the
minutes like that's their oneand only time to do a piece of
(34:52):
content or a change in theprocess.
And I think that's that's themistake I think a lot of teams
get into.
Yeah.
And to be fair, I think a lotof marketing ops people tend to
go that way, right?
They become rigid in how theyapproach things.
And I think that's that's amistake that they need to when
they do that.
Penny Hill (35:11):
Yeah.
We can overcome that that'spart of where we overcomplicate
it too, I think.
And um, I think, you know,actually I just had this
conversation about lead scoring,and I just had this
conversation too about acampaign hierarchy.
You know, it's like we aregoing to monitor this and we can
change it and build things in away you can change them.
Yeah.
You know, your your lead scoringmodel, hopefully you build it
(35:32):
in a way that you can adjustscores, you can add and take,
you know, add things and takethem away.
That's what we should be doingas ops.
Um, campaign hierarchy, that'sanother thing.
You know, you don't have tohave it all figured out right
now that's overwhelming.
Like, let's put it together,then let's see how it's really
gonna flow through um to ourreporting and then change it.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (35:51):
So totally, totally agree.
Um I'll kind of circle back toour kind of where we started a
little bit and this whole ideaof the credit game, because it's
really still sort of beenbothering me.
So um let's so we you and Ihave both been in leadership
(36:13):
roles, and then maybe it makesit a little bit easier.
And we've been, you know, forthose people who are listening
or watching who maybe are asmall team or a team of one, or
have particularly challengingstakeholders in the
organization, like how would youcoach them on how to approach
(36:34):
this conversation to start toget past the credit game and all
that?
Penny Hill (36:44):
I think, I mean, I would I would coach them that
they need to start speaking up.
I think a lot of times,especially in ops, marketing
ops, we stay really quietbecause we don't feel like our
voice, you know, should beheard, or maybe we don't feel
like we're right or wondering.
And I I think you should alwaysbe speaking up with what you
see and bring data behind it toshow.
Um and and try to, I think it'salways helpful to pivot the
(37:08):
conversation to what matters,right?
Even if it's not as good of alight for marketing.
At the end of the day, we needto make sure we're always
looking at truth.
And something I look at a lotand I've seen it happen in a lot
of orgs.
And it's, you know, when we'retalking about sourcing, um,
marketing's sourcing all this.
We're doing fantastic, right?
Oh, but our closed one ratesare abysmal and we're not
bringing the revenue.
Well, what's happening here?
(37:29):
Um, are we just really the bestthing that's ever been there in
your sales team is just theworst sales team in the world?
Michael Hartmann (37:35):
Right.
Penny Hill (37:35):
Probably not, right?
What like we need to like stepback and look at different
metrics.
And that's a place wheresourcing, you know, doesn't
really mean anything, but like,what are we sending over?
Is it quality?
Yeah.
What are we doing, doing here?
And um, and I think a lot of II think that's a good way
sometimes to start to pivot thesourcing question because I
think sometimes you'll see thatum when you're having that
(37:57):
conversation.
And it helps even if you'rehaving to say, maybe what we're
doing in marketing isn't asgreat as we've been reporting.
We still need to talk aboutthat, right?
So we can do better and we'relooking at the right things,
kind of owning um and beinghonest about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and it's fine.
Like I think, I mean, I've I'vewalked walked through this with
(38:17):
a few orgs.
There's no one's ever losttheir job at the end of the, you
know, because like it's kind ofcame to light, maybe what we're
doing isn't the best thing,right?
People pivot, they startfocusing on what matters, and
and but teams grow and they dobetter.
So I think it just people get alittle scared.
Michael Hartmann (38:34):
Yeah.
I mean, I think um Yeah, myfirst thought when you said said
that is that like typicallyit's not one of the other,
right?
These things are complicated,especially the the bigger the
org and the more complicated theproduct and the sales cycle and
all that, right?
There's lots of factors that gointo it.
So pointing fingers at onething is gonna probably not
(38:57):
really be the case, like thesolution.
Penny Hill (38:59):
No, um, it never is.
Michael Hartmann (39:01):
Yeah, and I and I think the other thought I
had was kind of go it goes backto something we talked about a
little bit is like reachingacross, like putting out the
olive branch to some degree.
But I think I would go a stepfurther, like start today, if
you haven't already done it,with getting to know your
counterparts and what it is thatthey're doing, right?
(39:21):
Yeah, go hang out with them fora day.
Go sit if you can go sit onsales calls, right?
That'd be huge.
Like, I think that would beeye-opening for people who've
never done it.
Yeah.
And um really like go in therewith the idea that you want to
learn, right?
Like that's yeah, because Ithink then when it gets to those
tough conversations, yeah,you've got a little bit of a
(39:44):
relationship you can build on.
Um the risk I think people whoare listening would run into
with what you said is that youyou know speak up, totally
agree, but how you speak upmatters.
That's true.
Yes.
And if you haven't built somecredibility, um, and say that
maybe that's not your strongsuit is communicating difficult
(40:07):
things, which is very common.
Yeah.
Then um like you if you've gotsome credibility and you build
up some trust, you you can getpast that a lot easier.
Penny Hill (40:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's that's I think areally good point.
And we should be working um tobuild those bridges, you know,
with our peers on the otherside, within marketing, but
within sales as well.
I agree.
Yeah, correct.
It's so important.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (40:31):
I mean, I like a simple, like for me, things
as simple as going to see whatit's like for a salesperson to
go update an opportunity inSalesforce or whatever.
So you like if you've not seenlike what are the steps that go
into that and what they'rerequired to do.
And if you're a kind of anorganization has, you know,
(40:52):
maybe you subscribe to one ofthe sales methodologies that
requires you to have meetcertain hurdles, right?
Yeah.
To move something from onestage to another, right?
It's it's not it's not hard,but it's not trivial either,
right?
And it's cumbersome and yeah,it's probably unless you're in a
like a high volume thing, it'snot something they're probably
(41:13):
doing every day.
So yeah.
And when we go and give them ahard time about not doing that,
it's like yeah.
Yeah, we don't understand.
Yeah.
But and then then then I canthen you can have the
conversations.
And by the way, changing an ememail five different times for
five different people, right?
This is why it's yes, it's nothard, but it's but in aggregate,
(41:37):
right?
It starts to become a problem,right?
Yeah.
So yeah.
Anyway.
So when like I know you've youkind of recently um started
working with a client, like whatyou've also probably gone into
other organizations.
What are some of the things youlook for or things where you
see like signs that there's someof that complexity is has crept
(42:01):
into the organization and youknow where that you need to go
try to simplify some of that.
Penny Hill (42:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I look at one of thethings I'd look at, I look at
what are people reporting on,what are people like talking
about, like, and see if there'salignment.
Um, I think that's a big one.
I think, you know, at a highlevel, if you see marketing's
coming to the table with thesenumbers and sales is coming to
(42:31):
the table of these numbers,which happens, um, that's a huge
red flag that there there issome missing alignment.
And even within marketingteams, you'll start, especially
larger orgs, you'll see wherelike different groups are kind
of reporting things differentlyand talking about things
differently.
Um, so when I come in and Istart talking to people, that's
kind of some of the things I'mlooking for.
(42:52):
Like, you know, what like arewe all on the same team here,
really?
Yeah.
Um, marching, you know, in thesame band, um, or are we really
looking at these thingsdifferently?
So that's probably some of myfirst indicators.
Like, what are the metrics andthe the things you're talking
about?
Michael Hartmann (43:09):
Have you um, I know like one of the things
I've I've noticed, and this isprobably especially true in
large organizations, is um theteam that I see get squeezed a
lot is like a creative team.
Like like getting them tounderstand like what's what
what's their day-to-day like,um, in terms of especially
within the marketing or me, thatthat to me, yeah, they tend to
(43:31):
get squeezed from all sides,right?
Penny Hill (43:34):
Yes.
Yes.
And a lot of, I mean, I see it.
I don't know if this iseverywhere, but I've always seen
it more than marketing.
You've got like everyone's kindof reaching out to them, like
all over, you got accountingasking them for things.
Right.
You know, like they just can't.
Michael Hartmann (43:47):
Yeah.
Penny Hill (43:48):
Yeah.
It can get it can get reallyhard.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (43:51):
Yeah.
It's it's funny because a lotof times where I've put in place
like project management systemsfor marketing teams, the team
that's usually the one drivingit and really asking for is the
creative team.
Because they're they'refielding so many random
requests.
And they don't always know howtheir bit fits into the bigger
picture of something.
Well, the reason I understandis like that's also like that
(44:13):
when I think about those processthings that are getting in the
way of being able to executequickly and consistently and
confidently because they're tiedinto so many things.
That's usually where I findlike I'll hear about those
first.
So it's interesting.
Yeah.
I hadn't actually thought aboutit until just now that you're
getting it real time for me.
Penny Hill (44:33):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (44:35):
Anyway.
Penny Hill (44:36):
Yeah, and I think that's the kind of stuff too,
like your creative team and ops.
Like I see this with theoperations teams.
Um, we can start to kind ofcall out because a lot of times
we're the ones that see themisalignment because we see
everything kind of coming at us.
And we can be like, oh, wait,everyone's trying to do
different things to the sameaudience, or you know, things
like that.
(44:56):
Um, and so that's hopefully,and that's where I really want
sometimes that marketingoperations professionals don't
stand, don't speak up.
And they they need to.
Like you're the one that seesit, you're kind of that linchpin
in all of it.
Um, start to flag.
People may not listen, right?
But at least you're starting tovoice it and we can start
(45:16):
having those conversations.
Michael Hartmann (45:18):
Yeah, I think I think if you can do that, and
if you're doing it in a way thatis, you're thinking like the
it's I was gonna say obvious.
That's maybe too strong, butlike it's where it's obvious
where you are you have the bestinterests of the organization
overall and customers, then Ithink you're gonna you like
(45:39):
you'll you're gonna get heardmore.
So yeah, pointing it out andmaking suggestions of how things
could be simplified, kind ofgoing back to the original
fling.
I I'm I I think you we're usedto in like I'm a big believer in
um simple the simpler we canmake things, whether it's
(46:00):
process, technologycombinations, things like that,
that can accommodate that takethe 8020 rule, right?
Um and enables us to move andpivot quickly.
Like I would take that oversomething that encapsulates all
you know 100 billion differentvariations of something we might
have to deal with every time.
And then get 100%.
(46:21):
And then trust people to makeinformed and good decisions
along the way, right?
Where there are exceptions.
Penny Hill (46:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause when you've got you'vegot system and pro systems and
processes built for all theexceptions that you've just
tried to make perfect, it evenif you have it perfect for a
minute, it's not going to last.
And five years down the road,you've got a mess.
Yeah.
Everyone that built it is gone.
They have no idea why the whyanything's like it.
It's duct taped together, it'sfalling apart every time you
(46:48):
look at it.
Um, and it's really a mess tountangle.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Where if you just would havestarted simply, you would have
had something sustainable.
Yeah.
And it it, you know.
Michael Hartmann (46:59):
Yeah.
I mean, at the end of the day,like I where I lean towards is I
I I would rather trust peopleto do the right thing with
guardrails than to try to buildsomething that um well, at your
point, right, will likely notfor the long term eliminate the
like errors or problems.
(47:20):
Because it's just like thereare gonna be exceptions you
couldn't think of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting stuff.
Um, well, I hope I hope thishelps some of our listeners out
there because I think um I feellike I'm uh I'm a lone voice out
there sometimes, so I'm glad tohave somebody else who's in.
I can't help the same that wedisagree about attribution
(47:40):
versus contribution, but um, Ithink we both agree that they
both play a role in some plays,right?
Some way.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just a matter of how weuse them.
So Penny, lots of fun asalways.
So if if uh if folks want tohear a little more about you and
what you're doing, want to godeeper on this with you, maybe
what's the best way for them todo that?
Penny Hill (48:00):
Yeah, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Michael Hartmann (48:02):
LinkedIn.
Like I'm just gonna say we'rejust gonna tell people that now.
Like I think I think I've hadmaybe a handful of people who's
not said LinkedIn.
Yeah.
Some will sometimes sayLinkedIn and my website or
whatever, but you know.
Um all right, well, thank youagain.
It's been a lot of fun.
I'm glad you're able to makethis work on the week after
Muffs Balooza 25.
(48:24):
So uh I appreciate that to allof our listeners and audience
out there.
Thank you for your support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can reach out to Naomi,Mike, or me, and we'd be happy
to get the ball rolling on it.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
Penny Hill (48:41):
Bye, thank you.
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