October 13, 2025 • 54 mins
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In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we are joined by Sari Hegewald, Vice President of Marketing Operations at CeriFi. Sari leads a 10-person team covering marketing automation, creative, content, events, and more, and brings a unique perspective on the human side of marketing operations.
She explains why the best MOps leaders focus not only on campaigns and systems but also on relationships, anticipating behavior, and applying empathy in reporting, segmentation, and strategy. The discussion explores the difference between being “data-informed” and “data-driven,” how to combine strategic thinking with emotional intelligence, and ways to engage both internal teams and external audiences without losing the human touch.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why empathy is essential in marketing operations
- How to balance data insights with human understanding
- Practical ways to anticipate behavior and build stronger relationships
- Tips for creating campaigns and reporting that resonate without being robotic
This episode is ideal for marketing operations leaders, MOps professionals, and anyone looking to bring a more human-centered approach to data, strategy, and execution.
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:00):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered by allthe MoPros out there.
I am your host, MichaelHartman, flying solo today.
Hopefully, one of these nextfew episodes, we'll have Mike or
Naomi.
So we're looking forward tothat.
And we're getting ready for, Ithink we're about a month away
from Matsopalooza 2025, the lastyear of it, as we're recording
(00:24):
this.
So anyway, uh in this episode,I'm excited.
We're going to be exploring aperspective that doesn't get
nearly enough attention, thepsychology of marketing
operations.
Our guest today is SariHegewald.
She is vice president ofmarketing operations at Serify,
where she leads a 10-person teamspanning marketing automation,
creative content, events, andmore.
Sari brings a deepunderstanding of both systems
(00:46):
and stakeholders, and shebelieves the best marketing
operations leaders don't justbuild campaigns, they build
relationships, anticipatebehavior, and apply empathy in
everything from reporting tosegmentation.
We will unpack why being datainformed, my term, matters more
than being data-driven.
What it looks like to combinestrategy with heart and how
marketers can reach peopleinternally and externally
(01:08):
without becoming robotic.
So, Sari, welcome to the show.
Sari Hegewald (01:12):
Well, thanks for having me here.
I really am so excited to behere and talking about this.
Michael Hartmann (01:17):
Yeah.
Well, and thanks for makingsure I knew how to pronounce
your name correctly.
Because I think many, like manyof our listeners, when they see
it, they might havemispronounced it.
So I appreciate that.
All right.
Go ahead.
Sari Hegewald (01:31):
Oh no.
I'll just say, yeah.
It's better than the name I wasactually going to be given,
which was Babbling Brook.
So I'm I'm glad we have the theSari that could be also termed
sorry.
Michael Hartmann (01:43):
That's right.
That's right.
Well, let's let's start withthe like the big idea behind the
episode.
We you know what when when weyou've said when we talked
before, you said the human sideof marketing operations.
So what did you mean by that?
Sari Hegewald (01:58):
Yeah, so um really it's just uh something
that I've been working on foryears now, but it's bringing
together two sides.
One is you have your internalteams, right?
You've got your marketing team,your sales team, your ops team,
product team, all the variousteams, and really understanding
besides just the robotic part ofit, so the processes, the
(02:22):
automation, the integrations,um, really understanding how
those various teams work, theempathy for how their teams will
integrate with those systems,um, and really having a feeling
for it on top of the customerand prospect.
And I think this is where ummarketing ops doesn't talk about
(02:42):
it enough, really, is thepsychology behind the brain of
your customers and prospectsthat you're trying to hit.
Of course, the data's there,the numbers are there, they're
indicators that tell you whichway to kind of you're turning
the head, but you gotta think alittle bit deeper.
Like, why are you turning thathead?
Which way are you turning it?
(03:03):
Which way do you want it toreally turn so that it meets the
goal that you're really havingthere?
Michael Hartmann (03:08):
Yeah.
Well, I think it's interestingbecause you talk about the human
side, both in terms of internalteams as well as customers.
And I I think one of the thingsthat I tell people who are
maybe less familiar aboutmarketing ops is it's easy to
go, we're the enablers formarketing, right?
IT for marketing, which isNaomi's old way of describing
it.
(03:28):
And I've always thought of itas more, but I think the one of
the other things that we shouldbe doing is also be a
representative of the customerand prospect, right?
So kind of thinking about howwill how will what we do affect
them, how will they be how we beperceived.
And it could be as simple asthings like I've I've talked
about this before, right?
I had a early in my career whenI was doing mostly web, I call
(03:50):
it web operations stuff, had aproduct marketing team like,
let's put a a form on thiswebsite and ask for feedback on
our products or something likethat.
And I was like, that's easy.
We could do that, but what areyou gonna do with it?
Because I think you're settingup an expectation of something,
right?
And so um I think oftentimesit's easy to get caught up and
(04:10):
we're just gonna do what we'reasked to do, as opposed to
thinking about it in the termsof not only was it gonna do to
help achieve a business goal,but also how's it gonna affect
customers and prospects?
So is that kind of what you'retalking about?
Sari Hegewald (04:23):
Yeah, um, you know, I bring up Southwest.
I'm a huge Southwest lover, andI do love their marketing, even
though they've made somechanges I haven't 100% agreed
with.
But um you I think aboutSouthwest.
When you go and you search fora you know a flight, you're just
looking into it, you'reresearching it, but
automatically right away, I feellove because I get an email
(04:45):
that says, Hey, you're, youknow, you're taking off to Las
Vegas or whatever, you know, youyour trip is still there.
I feel I feel that love becausethey understood where I'm at.
I'm researching it, but maybe Ineed that that research back in
my email so that I can go backto it.
I don't have to re-put ineverything again.
(05:06):
So they're understanding myprocess as the customer and
prospect.
And we need to take that intomarketing operations.
I mean, another big examplethat I always go with is um I
really started off my career inemail design.
Um, and I had read a long timeago that orange helps you to uh
(05:26):
get more clicks on a CTA foryour button, right?
And at that time, the company Iwas working for had orange and
purple as their main colors.
And I was like, great, orange.
We'll just we'll knock all thebuttons out with orange to get
more engagement.
You know, that that speaks topeople, that speaks to their
brains.
But what was um coming in andtrumping was how someone felt
(05:52):
about it from their own personalbeliefs instead of having
empathy and thinking of thepsychology of the prospect and
the customer, what they wouldmostly like and appeal to them,
and they only wanted purple,which purple is a beautiful
color.
I love purple.
Michael Hartmann (06:07):
You're talking about internal internal people
only wanted purple buttons.
Sari Hegewald (06:10):
Yeah, internal people only wanted purple.
And so orange didn't went out,even though there was data,
right?
We had the numbers, we had thethe people actually um raised
their hand in engagement uh thatsaid, Hey, I like orange
better, and here's thepsychology behind it on why.
So there's there's just so manythings in the psychology world
(06:34):
that we can enter into marketingoperations that does doesn't
make it so re robotic, and webecome un understanding,
empathetic to internal andcustomer prospects.
Michael Hartmann (06:44):
Yeah, it's interesting because I I mean
I've fought and successfullyseen better results pretty much
every other time I've done this,where I've changed, you talk
about email, where I've done andpush for light almost basically
text-based emails, right?
Very almost no no design.
And um it's amazing how muchpushback there is on things like
(07:07):
that.
Really, like I'm a bigbeliever, like the the outcome
should trump the output, right?
And so I think if the outcomeis always better across multiple
dimensions of measurement.
Um, I'm not saying you do itevery time, right?
Because I think there I dobelieve there's a place for
brand consistency and you know,appropriate.
And also what you're I mean,I've worked in industries that
(07:30):
were selling to people who aremore visual and cared about
visual aspects and things likethat.
And so like I I get it, right?
You have to you have to do whatmakes sense for both the
business and customers, right?
Yeah, and um, but if you'redoing what's right for the
business, you would think thatthe outcome would be the thing
that wins, but you're right, itdoesn't always, right?
(07:51):
There's egos tied to some ofthis stuff.
Sari Hegewald (07:54):
Yeah, and you have to take that all into
consideration, which goes backto the human side of like, hey,
I've got my internal teams and Iwant to make sure that I keep
them happy, but I've also got myexternal teams, and that's
where you really have to takeall the data and the things,
your experience, your knowledge,and the things that you've
studied and put that alltogether to make the best
(08:17):
outcome possible for the companyand for the achievement you're
trying to do.
Michael Hartmann (08:21):
Yeah.
So you've used the wordpsychology a couple of different
times in in our conversationalready.
And you you even said that itplays a big role for how good or
great marketing ops teams work.
So kind of break that down.
Like, what does that look likein practical sense and show up
in your day-to-day role, yourteam's roles?
Sari Hegewald (08:43):
Um actually, it's funny.
I'm reading a book right now onuh on relationships, um,
personally, but I think a lotwhen I'm when I'm listening,
it's an audio book, I'm thinkinga lot about how does that apply
to the internal teams and ourcampaigns and making it better
(09:05):
and working better together,collaboration and all of that.
And um one of the things uhthat it talks about is uh your
tone, your tone is heavier thanthe content that you have.
Your tone is what really setsthe stage and it almost tells
everybody the part of the brainthat you're using for that
(09:28):
content, of how you're feelingabout that content.
So it's it's things like thatthat I share with other team
members of what the directionthat we're taking the various
campaigns or processes, um,collaboration, but it's it's
things like that in psychologythat I share and that I believe
(09:50):
in and I believe to get that outinto our campaigns.
Michael Hartmann (09:54):
That's interesting.
No, it's interesting um becauseI think I hadn't heard that.
I've heard I've heard bodylanguage, right?
But I hadn't heard so muchabout tone, although it makes
sense.
And it's interesting because Ithink I I've been I've been uh
reading in quotes, right?
Uh listen to the audiobook ofthe anxious generation, and it's
interesting that it's it's illit it's illustrated, it's really
(10:17):
talking about how we've in oneway we've never been more
connected, but not in the waythat humans uh have evolved to
be connected, right?
Which is with deep personalconnections.
And I think that there's a bigpart of that has been lost, and
I think it was exacerbated withthe shut, you know, the COVID's
and the lockdowns.
And I think there's a lot ofthere there potentially has been
(10:40):
some good things, right?
The ability that people canwork remotely, at least in
knowledge work.
At the same time, you know, Ithink it's made it easier for
people who were kind ofresistant to connecting with
people, you know, able to doeven less of that.
And I don't think that's a goodthing long term.
So uh I'll get off my soapboxnow.
(11:02):
Uh but so so I do I think it'sum the I there was something I
that you said that I wanted toto follow up on, which is but
you know, what it's it'sinteresting you're reading that
book about relationships becauseI often in my both in terms of
my regular coaching andmentoring of teams I've managed,
but also the coaching I do withothers as individuals,
(11:25):
particularly people who aremoving into leadership roles, is
a is a book that I uh in a in aclass I was able to take uh
years ago from based on the bookCrucial Confrontations.
Uh there's a second, there'sanother book by the same people
called Crucial Conversations,which I know less about, but I
think it's sort of the samegeneral thing, which is you
know, the way to have thesedifficult conversations about,
(11:47):
you know, trying to get a changein behavior or to convince
somebody to do something orwhatever, is really dependent on
how you frame the conversation,how to approach it.
And I think it creates but it'sit's one of those ones, it's
interesting.
The reason I bring it up isbecause you talked about you
reading this book that itapplies, sounds like it applies
both to personal andprofessional life, and which is
what I think of the uh that booktoo.
(12:07):
And I it's it's one of thebooks I universally recommend to
people.
I have kids who are now incollege, and I've been
recommending that to them too,like they're getting out into
the workforce.
So um, I mean, are you findingthat that's true of the book
you're reading?
What is it called again?
Sari Hegewald (12:25):
Uh it's it's us.
Um actually Well, I put you onthe spot.
Michael Hartmann (12:31):
Okay, here we go.
Sari Hegewald (12:33):
I'm I'm not that great with like remembering the
book titles.
I'm more about the contentthat's within it and the
lessons, but it is us gettingpast you and me to build a more
loving relationship.
And even though it's um, youknow, it's personal, like I
said, I try to apply it toeverything that I do because I
(12:56):
really do believe that in yourpersonal also meshes into your
professional life.
Um, you actually talked aboutuh I read the other book,
Crucial Conversations.
Yeah.
It it was we have a book clubhere at Serify, and that was one
of the books that they had thecompany, if you joined the book
club, had the company read.
(13:16):
And it really was a great bookbecause it it is something that
as we're collaborating, you haveto have those crucial
conversations.
And as you're trying to get, ummaybe you're just starting out,
you keep wanting to manager ordirector or vice president or C
level at some point.
Yeah, you you have to bewilling to actually sit back,
(13:40):
listen, maybe add some of whatyou heard from the other person
um into that conversation thatyou're gonna have with them
about the hard things that youmay need to talk about.
Maybe it's, you know, sorry,we've got to have that orange
button.
I hear what you're saying, youlove the color purple.
It's royal, it resembles royal.
(14:03):
Um, but the real goal here isthat we're trying to get more
engagement, we're trying to getmore conversions.
And the way to do that is thisway.
You're still taking intoconsideration how they feel
about something, um, so that youcan bring yourselves together
on the same page.
And that's really what the bookis about is being able to bring
(14:24):
people onto the same page,which you can bring into
leadership.
Michael Hartmann (14:27):
Yeah.
I I think I think one of thebiggest things I learned from
the Crucial Conversations bookwas not to not to assume intent.
Right.
So I think a lot of times, andI think especially true in in
optionals and marking optionsfor sure, where um we get
requests or are asked to dothings that we think are
(14:48):
unreasonable or don't makesense.
And are it's the the easiest,the easy reaction is just kind
of roll our eyes or huff or kindof the the if we're in our
maybe not our best selves,right?
Push back in a way that uhundermines relationship and
reputation.
And I think that's that's thething to avoid.
(15:11):
I mean, I go back to uh I wasjust trading messages uh on a
LinkedIn post or adding commentson a LinkedIn post yesterday um
that made me think again of aanother book that is The Seven
Habits of Highly AffectivePeople, also still a great book.
But Stephen Covey talks has astory in there where he's trying
to illustrate his don't makeassumptions about people's
(15:34):
intent or what's going on withthem.
And it's around his his pointof seek first to understand,
then be understood.
And yeah, um, I won't go intothe story, but so for those who
are interested, I highlyrecommend the book in general,
but also find that bit, find thestory about uh the story he
tells in that area.
(15:55):
It's it's phenomenal, and it'llprobably forever change how you
how you look at and respond tothings where you think someone's
coming in with some intent thatis malicious or or not.
And it I'm not saying that'snot not never going to be the
case, because clearly there aremalicious people or people with
malicious intent, but I I liketo believe it's the it's the
(16:17):
exception, not the rule.
Sari Hegewald (16:19):
And I second that book.
I have um come across that bookas well, and so I second that.
Uh and you know, you bring upmaliciousness, and I feel like
in marketing operations, atleast the position that I'm in,
you know, you we deal with umemails and form submissions that
are coming in because of thecontent that's going out.
(16:40):
And sometimes you get customersor prospects, obviously, that
are that are upset.
Michael Hartmann (16:46):
I know where you're going.
Sari Hegewald (16:48):
Um they're upset.
They're uh maybe they they hadopted into your um email
campaign and um they in nouncertain terms tell you they no
longer want to be.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Um but you know, you can takethat to heart, right, as a
negative comment, or you cansay, you know, where are they
(17:12):
coming from?
Maybe, maybe they had a badday, maybe they forgot, maybe
they just don't want to be apart of it anymore, whatever it
is.
Um, maybe learn learn from iteven.
Maybe they give you a littlebit of context of like, I don't
think this information pertainedto me, but maybe they thought
something else did.
A lot of times I'll actually goback and I'll look through the
(17:32):
the data of what that person'sopened or clicked on or filled
out other forms because we are acompany of 10 brands.
And so I'll go, oh, you knowwhat?
Maybe they really don't likeevents, but they really like to
know when we have discounts.
And they haven't told us thatyet.
You know, they haven't said,hey, I want events over
discounts or what have you.
(17:52):
But it might be on us to readthat data and understand where
that person is coming by the keyindicators of that data and
say, you know what?
Let's move this person.
Maybe they didn't say, Hey, Iwant to unsubscribe.
Of course, if they said that,we would take them completely
out.
But maybe they were just like,Why are you sending this to me?
This content isn't pertains tome.
(18:13):
We write them back, we say,Hey, you know what, we're taking
a look through your data, andum, it looks like you really
like it when we send youdiscounts.
Would you agree that that'sreally more of what you're
looking for?
It's a little bit more of apersonal challenge.
We can't always do that, and Iunderstand, but making that
customer prospect feel specialgoes a long way because now it's
(18:35):
even word of mouth, right?
Yeah, you're able to understandwhere that person's at through
the key indicators of the data,but also understanding where
they could be at by just knowinghow the brain works.
And now word of mouth is goingeven more further, like, hey,
they've reached out to me.
Like, I can't believe this.
Michael Hartmann (18:54):
They pay attention.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, I think I think thatreally helps.
Okay, so uh during ourintroduction, we kind of talked,
so like you've got a prettylarge team.
I mean, 10 people um formarketing apps is pretty
substantial these days, I'd say.
So, how do you um how do youhelp the team stay connected to
(19:17):
you know in the in theirday-to-day job and how that's
connected to the strategy?
And and then kind of to yourpoint, right?
How do you stay connected towhat's going on?
What's the data telling youabout your customers and
prospects?
Sari Hegewald (19:30):
Yeah, actually, I don't think we talked about
this before, but um we're afully remote company.
So it's you know, you've got towork even harder to come
together and stay connected.
Um and because of that, we dothings like you know, constant
check-ins.
We have comp uh not company, uhteam meetings, and then we have
(19:55):
individual meetings, and thenwe have events, just you know,
each department's type meetingsalong with marketing operations.
Plus, we do do um a couple offun things to try to bring
together that um personalitybecause I do feel like if you
bring in a little bit morepersonable, you tend to connect
a little bit more.
Same type of thing you wouldget in an office.
(20:16):
So we do things like Luna Park,which is a remote team
building.
Um, and then we um I alsoinform the teams the 15th and
the end of every month, how eachbrand is doing within the
different departments.
So maybe it's form submissions,maybe it's email, maybe it's
(20:36):
events, maybe it's the creative,but the team as marketing
operations gets informed fullyof all of the departments and
where we may need to have somefocuses and where we're doing
great in other places.
Um, we really lean into Slackand all of the channels that
we're able to do through there.
And that's really how we wework together.
Michael Hartmann (20:58):
So I'm just curious because uh I'm married
to someone who absolutely hatesSlack because it's just another
interruption, um I canappreciate.
But where I've seen it workwell is where there's sort of I
don't want to say rules, but umguidelines, yes, you know, about
how and when to use that versusother channels, you know.
(21:19):
How do you do you have somesome guidelines for like that
for that?
Sari Hegewald (21:24):
Yeah, so the one thing that we do try to do with
channels is it's intentional,right?
Um we have this one channelthat everybody doesn't know what
to do with, and I think it'sbecause it's uh not intentional,
so it's called random.
So people just can put randomthings in there, but it it kind
of gets all a little wacky and alittle all over the place.
(21:45):
Whereas we make a channel justfor maybe one campaign.
Hey, we're only gonna talkabout this campaign in here so
that we can stay focused, we canstay together.
It's just like having a ameeting you would in the office,
right?
Because that channel isdedicated to that.
So as long as you have theintention, you have the goals of
(22:06):
that channel, and you let theother members know, you also
have to have someone that'swilling to be able to be like,
you know what, that's not forthis channel.
Here's the other channel thatthis that would be great for,
you know, kind of a policeofficer in a way, I guess.
Michael Hartmann (22:23):
Well, I so I I think I realized I I did a poor
job of answering my question.
I really meant forgotten aboutSlack having channels.
I meant Slack versus emailversus text message versus
what's whatever you you know,other the other places where you
could communicate.
Sari Hegewald (22:42):
Yeah.
Well, so that okay, uh I seewhere you're going now.
The way that I do it is Iactually ask the person what's
their preferred method.
There are a lot of people inour company that prefer email
over Slack, they're less likelyto look at Slack.
So I do ask the teams to askfor the preferred type of method
(23:04):
and then work in that way.
Most of our team, because thecompany does direct us that way,
is to use Slack.
But that doesn't work foreverybody, and that's okay.
If I'm actually trying to get ahold of my manager, though, I
use I use like a priority typeof messaging system.
I try Slack, and then if thatdoesn't work, I text message.
(23:26):
And if that doesn't work, thenI, you know, I start sending
pigeons out the window of like,hey, I need to go.
Michael Hartmann (23:32):
Fire signals, yeah.
Sari Hegewald (23:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (23:35):
Yeah, smoke signals.
Uh yeah, so I've been in placestoo where um it's it's
interesting.
Uh I also think there's goodpractice.
Um, I was on a leadership,marketing leadership team a few
years ago, and at one of ourmeetings, some people raised
their hands and said, like,we're getting frustrated, Mr.
CMO, because we're gettingstuff over the weekends and late
at night and we're like feellike it's not fair to us.
(23:57):
And this is a good point aboutmake not making assumptions.
He he was like, I I didn'tintend for you to respond then,
right?
It was just convenient for meto communicate.
And it it sparked a healthyconversation about how do we
know, like, and he's like,here's how I'll tell you if I
need something urgently.
You know, I'll tell I'll sendyou, maybe send you a Slack, but
(24:18):
I'll also text you.
Like, I need this soon.
If I don't do that, treat it asif it's you know, within a
reasonable amount of time,right?
You don't, but you don't needto respond right then, over the
weekend, overnight, whatever.
And I think um that's that's areally good thing to do, is to
be really clear about what theexpectations on are on
(24:39):
communication, because I thinkit's easy to get overwhelmed and
feel like every you have torespond to everything right when
it comes in.
And definitely um, I think so.
I'm glad to hear that you'velike that hierarchy of
communication threads, right,based on urgency is a good good
model, I think, to use.
Um one of the things that wetalked about before is you you
(25:03):
mentioned this term, and I Ilove this idea.
Like you you said that, andwe've kind of touched on it a
little bit, that you think ofthe the I guess I'll call them
stakeholders, but um, thatmarketing ops serves as
personas.
So can you walk me through,like walk our audience through
what do you mean, like first ofall what do you mean by that?
Sari Hegewald (25:21):
And then what are the I think I had three is what
I had be from our conversation,but whatever the that number is
well um I think it also dependson the company that you're at,
right?
Your unique situation, everycompany is different.
But um, for us when we'rethinking about it, we have our
customers' prospects, whichtechnically you could even split
(25:44):
into two because they thinkcompletely different.
Michael Hartmann (25:46):
Yeah.
Um well, I think you should, Ithink you should treat them
differently for sure.
Sari Hegewald (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, you know, if you'reif you're sending a new
product, you already have kindof buy-in from customers on your
brand, whereas prospects, youdon't have that brand buy-in
yet.
So you have to work a littlebit harder and differently.
So you definitely have thedifferent personas there.
And then you have your internalmarketing team and you have
(26:11):
your cross-functional teams,your sales, your products, your
C-level um leadership, all thevarious different types of
teams.
Um, and then not only thegreater marketing team, but your
own team, uh, you have to, youhave to be thinking about all
these different parts andpieces.
And I think that's what makesmarketing operations so great,
(26:31):
right?
You get to, you get to thinkabout all of that.
That's the exciting thing.
You get to put all those gearsinto place.
And I imagine it like whereyou're like have a turnstile,
right?
And the gears are all workingtogether because you finally fit
them well enough that the wateris now flowing or something
like that.
Michael Hartmann (26:50):
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
I mean, I I agree with you.
Like it's one of the things I Ilove about ops roles and
marketing ops in particular,because I think of there's
obviously like other parts ofmarketing, uh, sales, sales
operations, um, finance, right,or FPA, um, legal, and then
C-suite, right?
I mean, you kind of if you'reif if you're you know at a even
(27:13):
up to a sort of a moderatelysized company, I think you have
you would normally haveinteractions with all of those
different kinds of stakeholders.
And probably if they're doingcustomer marketing or customer
success, like you should be intalks with those teams too,
right?
And management existingaccounts and clients.
So um, but and I think that'smaybe this is the tie tie
(27:35):
together, right?
So from a psychologystandpoint, one of the things I
always tell people who getespecially get frustrated with
sales teams, having been insales myself before, is you've
got to put yourself in theirshoes, right?
If you don't understand um whattheir incentives are, you know,
it's gonna be really hard.
Like I remember at a companywhere uh multiple sales teams,
(27:57):
one in particular out that itwas high volume, uh relatively
lower uh you know average dealsize, but still substantial.
And I remember talking tosomebody who had used was in
sales, sales ops or salesenablement, uh, who had been in
that team before, and I wasgetting really, I was sort of
describing some frustration Iwas having, getting some change
in behavior there.
(28:18):
And I asked a question that Ithought I knew the answer to,
which was you know, what's theircompensation structure?
Well, it because I assumed thatthere was a pretty, you know, a
standard sales one that was uhbased on what they sold, and it
was like, no, it was base plusplus bonus, and the bonus was
more or less somewhat tied to uhindividual achievement, but not
(28:38):
totally.
And um I was like, oh, thisexplains a lot, right?
No, so I'm gonna have to goapproach them in terms of trying
to get changed a different way.
I couldn't tie it, I couldn'tuse the carrot of this.
What I'm asking you to do, yes,is I'm asking you to do some
digital stuff, whether it waslike updating Salesforce in a
certain way or something.
(28:59):
I can't tie it to that's gonnahelp your compensation, right?
Or your place on thescoreboard, which is probably
actually more where most thebest salespeople live.
And it was really interestingto kind of think through that
and go like, oh, I need tochange my strategy because of
what I now know about that teamand the people.
Um I I couldn't base it on whatI assumed I knew about the
(29:23):
team.
Sari Hegewald (29:24):
Yeah, I think I think you hit it on the nose,
and it's something that I'm sureyou learned from and integrated
like into each position thatyou were in and situation.
Um I think that that's probablythe a really important part in
order to understand how tocollaborate and how to get your
campaign to almost be important,right?
(29:47):
When it comes to marketingoperations, the things that
you're doing, we get to betechnical in marketing
operations.
And when you talk to anotherperson, ops, you get to be
technical with them.
But when you're explainingoutside of that, like Sales.
I always started and I'm like,look, I geek out on this stuff
and I love it, but let me knowwhen I need to pull back, and
you're you guys are just glazingover at this point, and it
(30:10):
doesn't pertain to you.
I will understand that and thenbe able to learn from that and
pull back.
I also in sales, especially, wereally need to understand
marketing, marketing ops.
Where, because sales is ournumber one partner.
Where are they at?
Where are they at in theirthinking, especially as you're
(30:31):
sharing sales, sales enablementtoolkit things or battle cards,
tips, whatever?
Um, where are they at?
Where are their frustrationpoints?
Where are their goals so thatyou can match what you're doing
with what they're doing, andthen you guys can make your
goals grow together and actuallyachieve them.
So it's just is a totalunderstanding, like you
(30:53):
experienced of understandingwhere they're coming at.
Michael Hartmann (30:56):
Yeah, which is kind of a psychology thing,
kind of understanding humanbehavior in a general sense,
too.
So yeah, yeah.
So you brought you brought upcampaigns.
Um and I don't remember thedetails, but one of the things
that you and I talked aboutbefore was something I think you
called it the love to learncampaign.
And I don't remember was thatan internal campaign, like with
(31:18):
sales teams, or was it withcustomers, prospects?
Like what was that?
Can you like tell us aboutthat?
Sari Hegewald (31:24):
Yeah, it's actually it's with prospects.
Um, it's for our continuingeducation brands.
And what we were seeing aftertalking to several different
departments in the sales org iswhat they were telling us is
like, you know, we call we callthese these prospects and
they're like, yeah, I get mycontinuing education through my
(31:44):
company.
They get it through a differentuh a company, uh different
company that's like yours.
I don't need to talk with you.
But I everybody is that, right?
If we're in continuingeducation, all of our
competitors are going to be theexact same thing.
So one of the things that uh asales leader brought up is to go
after the aspect of peoplereally want to learn.
(32:06):
It's not just satisfying theircontinuing education credits,
it's going broader than that.
It's like, yeah, I understandyou've got you've got a provider
for that.
But what about just continuingto learn?
We have hundreds of coursesthat you can broaden your
knowledge with and get evenbetter and understand um your
(32:27):
customers more, whereas yourcompetitor might not have that.
We're not looking to satisfynecessarily your continuing
education credits, which we'lldo, but we're looking to help
you to learn so that you cangrow as a professional and in
your career and for your otherfor your company.
So that's really how Love toLearn came about, and it's been
(32:49):
completely successful.
I mean, in the f first 48hours, uh, we had our
subscriptions increase uh overe-commerce, and um it just
continues to do that.
So it was a significantincrease and it looked really,
really good.
Michael Hartmann (33:08):
And it it started with feedback from sales
teams.
Is that what you're saying?
Sari Hegewald (33:12):
Yes.
Yeah, it started with feedbackfrom several different sales
teams, and then there was aspecific leader that spoke up
and said, you know, one thingthat we encounter a lot on our
phone calls is the fact thatpeople are really just looking
to learn.
We don't necessarily need tosay, hey, we're another
continuing education provider.
(33:32):
Would you like to get yourcourse, you know, your
coursework done through us?
Michael Hartmann (33:36):
Right.
I mean, that's kind of theyeah, it it's a it's a mirror or
anal analogous to the the wholeiPod campaign, right?
Which started out as yeah,whatever formats, how many songs
you could have on your iPod,yada, yada, yada, all the
technical specs.
And when they shifted to athousand songs in your pocket,
(33:56):
right, it it changed, right?
So it's like, what's thefeeling you're trying to elicit
from the prospect?
Sari Hegewald (34:03):
Yeah, exactly.
It I mean, it's it's reallyunderstanding and flipping it on
its head of like, okay, thatthat isn't working.
Like that, that isn't working.
We had a whole other campaigntoo that we actually just
launched.
It's called Mythbreakers forour CFA um category.
Before we were just veryproduct focused, we were like,
(34:24):
hey, we have thisinstructor-led, we've never had
that before.
It did okay, but once we didthe myth breakers of like
breaking down the things thatthat this community is hearing
and whether it's true or not,and how we support those
different items, I mean, it'sbecome a conversation now,
right?
Because it's like, oh, I heardit takes 300 hours to study for
(34:47):
this.
Well, maybe, but here's whythat may or may not be true.
And it's it's just it's reallyspeaking to them instead of
speaking at them andunderstanding where they're at.
Michael Hartmann (34:59):
Do you I mean, were you able to have a little
bit of it sounds like that'swhen it has a little bit of a I
don't know, humor, kind ofpoking fun at your own self or
your own audience, right?
In as part of it.
Is that is that true?
Sari Hegewald (35:13):
Uh yeah, a little bit.
I mean, with this particularaudience, they're um financial
analysts.
Yeah.
So you don't want to get toohumorous.
Yeah.
So you try to stay a little bitmore um to the point.
But you definitely can poke funand get a little bit fun with
it, which is why Myth Breakersworks.
I mean, I kind of think ofGhostbusters, right?
(35:34):
Right.
And the mystery of it all.
Michael Hartmann (35:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's funny because Ium what that made me think this
is gonna age me, as it manythings do.
There's an old um companycalled Blend Tech, which is they
made blenders.
Some households.
I remember that.
Remember this Will It Blendbit?
Sari Hegewald (35:53):
Yes, I love those videos.
Michael Hartmann (35:56):
Yeah, so um I always thought those were great.
I have no idea if they didanything other than you know,
raise brand awareness or helpwith financials, but like I love
that they were just like thecrazy stuff they did, right?
Um starting out with the handleof the rake and eventually
getting to the Chuck Norrisdoll, right?
Um, and so and everything else,a cell phone.
(36:18):
So um, yeah, I mean I think Ido think B2B, I I think I think
I would love to see more B2Borganizations be a little more
playful with their messaging,right?
Even to audiences like yours,which tend to be very fairly
serious things, right?
(36:39):
Yeah, um, I get there arecertain industries where that's
probably even harder to do,where there's highly regulated,
right?
But I mean, like we don't allhave to be serious all the time.
Sari Hegewald (36:49):
I mean, they're they're humans too, right?
Like you go out and watch funnymovies or maybe watch a
comedian or like to kick back alittle bit.
They don't want to be stressedout by financial numbers all the
time.
Right.
So you can have that little bitof fun um respectfully.
Michael Hartmann (37:08):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I think that's uh I thinkthat's good.
Um well, let's let's go into alittle bit.
We I kind of hinted at this umin the introduction, but this
whole idea of being data drivenseems to have become the
dominant force in marketing, inthe marketing world.
Um and I I struggle with thatbecause I'm a data nerd to some
(37:33):
degree.
But um you and I talked aboutthis, and you you know, sort of
tying empathy and intuition withdata and trusting in intuition
versus just purely metrics.
Like, how do you think aboutthose things um in what you with
your team?
Sari Hegewald (37:52):
Yeah, we think about it together, is what it
is.
Um I I geek out on numbers too,right?
But I geek out on numbersbecause it tells us a story and
it tells us, it gives us keyindicators of where we need to
go.
But there's also gut feelingstoo, right?
Of like mixing that in.
(38:14):
Of we have we have a brand thatpart of the pieces of it is
telling us, man, it's doinggreat.
I mean, like, we are gettingdemos all over the place, uh,
form submissions, the emails areengaging.
We're we're hitting thosenumbers, but at the same time,
(38:34):
we're not seeing that customerbase grow.
So they're key indicators oftelling us a story, but it's a
gut reaction of okay, the emailsare doing great and the forms
are doing great, but are theyreally?
Are they doing great becausethey're just these these people
are getting something for free,like a free demo, and then
(38:57):
they're just walking away andwe're not nurturing them a
little bit more.
Right.
Um it's it's trying to find outwhere are the gaps that you can
connect that story in thenumbers to help you to tell even
a better story.
It's it's just I believe it'sum the data is just the support,
right?
It's not, it shouldn't be likethe exact, like one plus one
(39:22):
equals two.
Yes, I agree with you, butthat's supporting the
mathematical equation.
What is that equation that weneed to figure out?
And that is where the thinkingcomes behind it, the psychology
comes behind it, and putting allof those pieces together.
Michael Hartmann (39:40):
Yeah, I think um Yeah, my take on this is
informed by a couple differentthings, but probably big biggest
one is to your point, like oneplus one equals two, yes.
But the problem is forespecially in B2B world, right?
Marketing and sales data isjust never quote correct, right?
It's just never gonna becomplete, correct, and there's a
(40:03):
lot of reasons for that.
And this is why I I kind ofhave a reaction to data driven,
because it implies there's animplication there in my mind
that says um the data is gonnatell us what to do next.
Sari Hegewald (40:16):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (40:16):
And and I just don't believe that's the case,
right?
I think I think you know, ifyou re- and I and what I see
happen is people start reportingon this data, people around us
start questioning it, and theylose trust, or um they don't
they they spend uh extremeamounts of time, effort, money
(40:39):
to quote, get the data right,end quote.
And and and until they feellike that's right, which will
never happen, right?
They don't act.
And I think there's thisthere's this fine line where you
have to balance, like, I wantenough data to inform what I'm
doing.
I also need to trust my ex, youknow, experience, intuition,
(41:01):
right, to go like, am I, am I,are we heading in the right
direction?
Does this seem like this willwork?
And um, I think that's kind ofwhere I land.
It's like I the data's never beright or complete or to the
level we want.
And so you have to be able tobe willing to do things without
all that data, which is a littledifferent than go trusting the
(41:22):
data to tell you exact things,which it never will in this like
this is not a this is notfinancial data, right?
Whether it's yeah, commonlanguage, extreme levels of
control, right, all that kind ofstuff that makes it more
trustworthy, even knowing thatthere are people who are bad
actors out there that do thingswith that, but set that aside,
(41:43):
right?
That's I still think that's theexception, not the rule.
Sari Hegewald (41:46):
Yeah.
I mean, I I I see where you'regoing with it.
And I even think about if I goback to the love to learn and I
implement it there, the datawasn't necessarily telling us
the next step when we were aboutthe CE providers.
It was the feedback that wewere getting from the sales team
that we added into the data,right?
(42:06):
And it was also the feedback ofcustomers and prospects telling
us, hey, I want to hear someoneanother company tell me another
reason why I should go withyou.
Michael Hartmann (42:17):
Right.
Sari Hegewald (42:18):
And that we were never going to get that from the
data, from numbers.
We'll get it from maybe surveyresults, but surveys you if you
don't ask it in the right way,or be there right next to the
person explaining what you'retrying to really get after,
sometimes survey results caneven be a little bit wonky of
where it's telling you to go.
Michael Hartmann (42:39):
Yeah.
So so much of a survey's umusefulness is dependent on it's
the way it's been built.
Sari Hegewald (42:46):
And yeah.
Michael Hartmann (42:47):
And and there's an expertise that I
don't have.
And I I've been asked to dosurveys, like post-training
surveys internally, fine.
The the risk is low, but Ithink if you're trying to do
surveys or uh market research,right, you need people who know
what they're doing, otherwiseyou're gonna get biased and
flawed feedback.
Yes.
Sari Hegewald (43:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So and it depends on the surveytaker.
I know from for me, forinstance, if you tell me to
score myself one through ten,I'm never gonna pick ten because
I always feel like you know,something could be better.
Absolutely.
But that but the company that'sgiving me that survey may not
feel that that question was whathow they were posing it.
Michael Hartmann (43:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think there's lots of uhcould be as simple as like I
asked you the question about uhSlack versus other channels, and
yeah, you interpreted it oneway, right?
And it's not neither of us wasright or wrong.
It was just you had one thingin your head, I had a different
thing, and until you answeredit, I I had then I could correct
it.
(43:50):
But yeah, if it was a uh if itwas asynchronous, right, there's
no opportunity for that.
Sari Hegewald (43:56):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, exactly.
Michael Hartmann (43:59):
Um, so I I want to do a little bit of a
follow-up.
So you mentioned this idea oflike personally responding to
some customer feedback, likereplies to your emails where
maybe they weren't nice, theyuse uh color colorful language.
Uh yeah.
So we put I think we've allseen that.
Um yeah, one of the things Ithink I would net I like my head
(44:21):
went to was well, that soundslike the kind of thing that AI
would be really useful in tryingto maybe either I personally
wouldn't probably trust it rightaway to do an automated kind of
response, but um, it could beuseful at identifying maybe
drafting kind of responses,things like that.
Do you like I I think we talkeda little bit about like you
(44:43):
still think robotic, there's arobotic kind of nature of AI and
automation that can come acrossas cold, whatever.
Um, so maybe not like you cando this in the context of AI
because it's a hot topic, butjust in marketing operations in
general, right?
Like, how do we avoid that kindof coming across as robotic,
(45:04):
cold, you know, um not personal,I guess is the way I don't know
what else titles to describeit.
Sari Hegewald (45:12):
Yeah.
So I love AI.
I really do.
I um I love working withChatGPT.
We use it in other programsthat have AI features too.
And uh even here at Cerify,we're growing AI within our LMS.
But as long as you're not, whenyou're drafting a response,
(45:32):
you're not taking it at facevalue of what AI said, right?
That's the one thing is AIstill isn't thinking necessarily
of how the other person isthinking, how you may be
thinking, the situation.
It it takes all of that into alittle bit into effect.
But as long as we're takingwhat AI drafts and we're looking
at it and we're tweaking it toexactly, you know, the point we
(45:56):
may be trying to get across, orum, the campaign changes of
where we really see things andtruly understand, I think that's
how we become less robotic.
We don't let AI be the answer,the sole answer.
It's AI plus us, right?
That's how we we use AI andbecome less robotic.
Michael Hartmann (46:17):
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So keep the human in the in theelement, and in the middle of
it.
I get it.
Yeah.
Um, okay, so we've covered alot of ground.
Why don't we wrap up with kindof a pretty broad topic, which
is especially given that you'vegot a pretty large team, right?
And you described a little bitof what you do to build
connections, but how do youbuild kind of a deeper level, a
(46:40):
culture that encourages thekinds of things that you are
describing, right?
Curiosity, learning,human-centered, you know, all
those kind of problem solving.
How do you, how do you what aresome things that you've done or
would encourage people to do totry to help with that in their
own organizations?
Sari Hegewald (46:58):
Um, I think it really comes down to two things
for me.
One is I trust the members onthe team are the experts.
Um, they know what they'redoing.
We have them on the team for areason.
Um, so I really put a lot oftrust into the things that they
want to do.
And especially as they bring upideas, I'm like, yeah, let's
(47:19):
run with it.
You came up with it, let's seeit.
Let's see the success, thefailure, whatever it may be.
Um, and the other thing is, isI do ask a lot of questions.
I'm the questionator.
So, but I I question, yeah, Iquestion so that the other
person gets to thinking aboutit.
If I just give the answer oflike, this was wrong because of
(47:42):
this, because of this, or thiswas right because of this, I
want them thinking about it,which gets them curious of like,
oh, you know what?
I'm not really sure.
Maybe I should ask before Ianswer you.
Hold on, let me let me let meask someone about that answer.
Right.
It really gets them thinking,and then they become involved in
it and they have more ownershipin it.
(48:03):
So that's that's really the thetwo key factors that I push on.
Michael Hartmann (48:08):
Yeah, I love this idea of asking questions.
And I know it can it'sinteresting.
I just listened to anotherpodcast this morning, listening
to a leader talk about how shehired, and she said one of the
questions she asks people waslike what kind of boss do they
work best under.
But I think what wasinteresting is she described
(48:29):
herself as someone who's gonnabe like she avoided people who
said they didn't like to bemicromanaged because she knew
herself well enough to know thatshe didn't say she would
micromanage, but she would,especially onboarding a senior
person.
She said she described she knewshe would be actively involved
with that onboarding and askingthem, supporting them on a like
what could come across asmicromanaging, that's not the
(48:50):
intent, but she said she asked alot of questions, and that
resonated with me, like yoursdid too, because I also have
been told I ask a lot ofquestions.
And for me, it's it's some ofthat of have you have you
thought about kind of stuff,right?
When it comes with the ideas,and I'm I'm totally with you on
believing like you're theexpert, right?
Like that's like that.
I agree with so I want them tobe feel um you have agency to
(49:15):
come up with ideas andsolutions.
Um doesn't mean they get to doall of them, right?
I don't set that ex that as theexpectation.
But the other part is just, Imean, what happened on again,
what happened in ourconversation earlier, right?
Part of it is just to clarify,like make sure that we're all
like that we're when you saycampaign, right, or contact,
(49:36):
right?
Like words that I especiallywhen it's words that I know from
experience can be uh havewildly different um
interpretations or meaningdepending on the context that
somebody has.
I will ask questions over andover and over to clarify.
And I think there are somepeople who kind of get
frustrated with that, and Idon't care.
(49:56):
Yeah.
Because I think it's way betterto have that clarity early on
than later.
Sari Hegewald (50:01):
Definitely, and you're on the same page, they'll
appreciate, they may notappreciate it right then and
there, yeah, but they will laterbecause they're like, man, that
person really understands me.
They on they were on the samesame wavelength.
Yeah, it goes a long way.
Michael Hartmann (50:17):
Agreed.
Um I also think like that as isa handy, it's a good tool if
you're working collaborativelycollaboratively with people
outside of your normal sort ofexpertise domain.
So, example, right, when you'reworking with sales or sales
ops, right?
If you're talking about leadsand lead handoff, right, you
(50:37):
want to get as specific aspossible about the language
because there can bemisinterpretations.
And some of that is driven bydeep technical system knowledge,
right?
I know that a lead record inSalesforce is different than a
contact record, which isdifferent than the lead where
lead and general, like all thesethings matter.
(50:59):
And uh, I think I've I've beenin too many scenarios where um
two things have happened, right?
One is there was a nod noddingheads, but actually a lack of
understanding, which led toproblems down line.
The other I've seen, which iswhat I've called violent
agreement, right?
Where people think in themoment they're disagreeing about
(51:21):
something, and when you askenough questions and poke at it,
they're actually saying thesame thing with different words
and not realizing it, right?
Sari Hegewald (51:28):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (51:28):
Um both of which can be damaging to
long-term relationships.
Sari Hegewald (51:33):
Yeah.
I mean, um, I guesscommunication and clarification,
right, are key.
So that's great.
Lean into that.
You have the you have worldpeace.
Michael Hartmann (51:43):
There we go.
So there we go.
We solved world peace.
Yeah, that's a good place toend.
Yeah.
So, Sari, thank you so much.
This has been a funconversation.
I've really enjoyed it, and Iknow that our listeners and
viewers will as well.
If people want to continue thatconversation with you or keep
up with what you're doing, uh,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Sari Hegewald (52:04):
Yeah, that'd be awesome.
I love talking.
Uh, I say I love geeking out onanything marketing, especially
marketing tech.
So please reach out to me onLinkedIn.
Um, it's Sari Hegelwald.
I think I might be the onlySari Hegelwald.
I I could be wrong, but ifanyone finds another Sari
Hegeld, please let me knowbecause I'd love to know.
(52:25):
Otherwise, just reach outthrough there.
Michael Hartmann (52:28):
Terrific.
Sounds good.
Well, again, thank you.
Thanks to our listeners and nowviewers.
We appreciate the support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can always reach out toNaomi, Mike, or me uh directly
or through the marketingops.comcommunity, and we'd be happy to
talk about that.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
Sari Hegewald (52:48):
Thanks so much.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered by allthe MoPros out there.
I am your host, MichaelHartman, flying solo today.
Hopefully, one of these nextfew episodes, we'll have Mike or
Naomi.
So we're looking forward tothat.
And we're getting ready for, Ithink we're about a month away
from Matsopalooza 2025, the lastyear of it, as we're recording
(00:24):
this.
So anyway, uh in this episode,I'm excited.
We're going to be exploring aperspective that doesn't get
nearly enough attention, thepsychology of marketing
operations.
Our guest today is SariHegewald.
She is vice president ofmarketing operations at Serify,
where she leads a 10-person teamspanning marketing automation,
creative content, events, andmore.
Sari brings a deepunderstanding of both systems
(00:46):
and stakeholders, and shebelieves the best marketing
operations leaders don't justbuild campaigns, they build
relationships, anticipatebehavior, and apply empathy in
everything from reporting tosegmentation.
We will unpack why being datainformed, my term, matters more
than being data-driven.
What it looks like to combinestrategy with heart and how
marketers can reach peopleinternally and externally
(01:08):
without becoming robotic.
So, Sari, welcome to the show.
Sari Hegewald (01:12):
Well, thanks for having me here.
I really am so excited to behere and talking about this.
Michael Hartmann (01:17):
Yeah.
Well, and thanks for makingsure I knew how to pronounce
your name correctly.
Because I think many, like manyof our listeners, when they see
it, they might havemispronounced it.
So I appreciate that.
All right.
Go ahead.
Sari Hegewald (01:31):
Oh no.
I'll just say, yeah.
It's better than the name I wasactually going to be given,
which was Babbling Brook.
So I'm I'm glad we have the theSari that could be also termed
sorry.
Michael Hartmann (01:43):
That's right.
That's right.
Well, let's let's start withthe like the big idea behind the
episode.
We you know what when when weyou've said when we talked
before, you said the human sideof marketing operations.
So what did you mean by that?
Sari Hegewald (01:58):
Yeah, so um really it's just uh something
that I've been working on foryears now, but it's bringing
together two sides.
One is you have your internalteams, right?
You've got your marketing team,your sales team, your ops team,
product team, all the variousteams, and really understanding
besides just the robotic part ofit, so the processes, the
(02:22):
automation, the integrations,um, really understanding how
those various teams work, theempathy for how their teams will
integrate with those systems,um, and really having a feeling
for it on top of the customerand prospect.
And I think this is where ummarketing ops doesn't talk about
(02:42):
it enough, really, is thepsychology behind the brain of
your customers and prospectsthat you're trying to hit.
Of course, the data's there,the numbers are there, they're
indicators that tell you whichway to kind of you're turning
the head, but you gotta think alittle bit deeper.
Like, why are you turning thathead?
Which way are you turning it?
(03:03):
Which way do you want it toreally turn so that it meets the
goal that you're really havingthere?
Michael Hartmann (03:08):
Yeah.
Well, I think it's interestingbecause you talk about the human
side, both in terms of internalteams as well as customers.
And I I think one of the thingsthat I tell people who are
maybe less familiar aboutmarketing ops is it's easy to
go, we're the enablers formarketing, right?
IT for marketing, which isNaomi's old way of describing
it.
(03:28):
And I've always thought of itas more, but I think the one of
the other things that we shouldbe doing is also be a
representative of the customerand prospect, right?
So kind of thinking about howwill how will what we do affect
them, how will they be how we beperceived.
And it could be as simple asthings like I've I've talked
about this before, right?
I had a early in my career whenI was doing mostly web, I call
(03:50):
it web operations stuff, had aproduct marketing team like,
let's put a a form on thiswebsite and ask for feedback on
our products or something likethat.
And I was like, that's easy.
We could do that, but what areyou gonna do with it?
Because I think you're settingup an expectation of something,
right?
And so um I think oftentimesit's easy to get caught up and
(04:10):
we're just gonna do what we'reasked to do, as opposed to
thinking about it in the termsof not only was it gonna do to
help achieve a business goal,but also how's it gonna affect
customers and prospects?
So is that kind of what you'retalking about?
Sari Hegewald (04:23):
Yeah, um, you know, I bring up Southwest.
I'm a huge Southwest lover, andI do love their marketing, even
though they've made somechanges I haven't 100% agreed
with.
But um you I think aboutSouthwest.
When you go and you search fora you know a flight, you're just
looking into it, you'reresearching it, but
automatically right away, I feellove because I get an email
(04:45):
that says, Hey, you're, youknow, you're taking off to Las
Vegas or whatever, you know, youyour trip is still there.
I feel I feel that love becausethey understood where I'm at.
I'm researching it, but maybe Ineed that that research back in
my email so that I can go backto it.
I don't have to re-put ineverything again.
(05:06):
So they're understanding myprocess as the customer and
prospect.
And we need to take that intomarketing operations.
I mean, another big examplethat I always go with is um I
really started off my career inemail design.
Um, and I had read a long timeago that orange helps you to uh
(05:26):
get more clicks on a CTA foryour button, right?
And at that time, the company Iwas working for had orange and
purple as their main colors.
And I was like, great, orange.
We'll just we'll knock all thebuttons out with orange to get
more engagement.
You know, that that speaks topeople, that speaks to their
brains.
But what was um coming in andtrumping was how someone felt
(05:52):
about it from their own personalbeliefs instead of having
empathy and thinking of thepsychology of the prospect and
the customer, what they wouldmostly like and appeal to them,
and they only wanted purple,which purple is a beautiful
color.
I love purple.
Michael Hartmann (06:07):
You're talking about internal internal people
only wanted purple buttons.
Sari Hegewald (06:10):
Yeah, internal people only wanted purple.
And so orange didn't went out,even though there was data,
right?
We had the numbers, we had thethe people actually um raised
their hand in engagement uh thatsaid, Hey, I like orange
better, and here's thepsychology behind it on why.
So there's there's just so manythings in the psychology world
(06:34):
that we can enter into marketingoperations that does doesn't
make it so re robotic, and webecome un understanding,
empathetic to internal andcustomer prospects.
Michael Hartmann (06:44):
Yeah, it's interesting because I I mean
I've fought and successfullyseen better results pretty much
every other time I've done this,where I've changed, you talk
about email, where I've done andpush for light almost basically
text-based emails, right?
Very almost no no design.
And um it's amazing how muchpushback there is on things like
(07:07):
that.
Really, like I'm a bigbeliever, like the the outcome
should trump the output, right?
And so I think if the outcomeis always better across multiple
dimensions of measurement.
Um, I'm not saying you do itevery time, right?
Because I think there I dobelieve there's a place for
brand consistency and you know,appropriate.
And also what you're I mean,I've worked in industries that
(07:30):
were selling to people who aremore visual and cared about
visual aspects and things likethat.
And so like I I get it, right?
You have to you have to do whatmakes sense for both the
business and customers, right?
Yeah, and um, but if you'redoing what's right for the
business, you would think thatthe outcome would be the thing
that wins, but you're right, itdoesn't always, right?
(07:51):
There's egos tied to some ofthis stuff.
Sari Hegewald (07:54):
Yeah, and you have to take that all into
consideration, which goes backto the human side of like, hey,
I've got my internal teams and Iwant to make sure that I keep
them happy, but I've also got myexternal teams, and that's
where you really have to takeall the data and the things,
your experience, your knowledge,and the things that you've
studied and put that alltogether to make the best
(08:17):
outcome possible for the companyand for the achievement you're
trying to do.
Michael Hartmann (08:21):
Yeah.
So you've used the wordpsychology a couple of different
times in in our conversationalready.
And you you even said that itplays a big role for how good or
great marketing ops teams work.
So kind of break that down.
Like, what does that look likein practical sense and show up
in your day-to-day role, yourteam's roles?
Sari Hegewald (08:43):
Um actually, it's funny.
I'm reading a book right now onuh on relationships, um,
personally, but I think a lotwhen I'm when I'm listening,
it's an audio book, I'm thinkinga lot about how does that apply
to the internal teams and ourcampaigns and making it better
(09:05):
and working better together,collaboration and all of that.
And um one of the things uhthat it talks about is uh your
tone, your tone is heavier thanthe content that you have.
Your tone is what really setsthe stage and it almost tells
everybody the part of the brainthat you're using for that
(09:28):
content, of how you're feelingabout that content.
So it's it's things like thatthat I share with other team
members of what the directionthat we're taking the various
campaigns or processes, um,collaboration, but it's it's
things like that in psychologythat I share and that I believe
(09:50):
in and I believe to get that outinto our campaigns.
Michael Hartmann (09:54):
That's interesting.
No, it's interesting um becauseI think I hadn't heard that.
I've heard I've heard bodylanguage, right?
But I hadn't heard so muchabout tone, although it makes
sense.
And it's interesting because Ithink I I've been I've been uh
reading in quotes, right?
Uh listen to the audiobook ofthe anxious generation, and it's
interesting that it's it's illit it's illustrated, it's really
(10:17):
talking about how we've in oneway we've never been more
connected, but not in the waythat humans uh have evolved to
be connected, right?
Which is with deep personalconnections.
And I think that there's a bigpart of that has been lost, and
I think it was exacerbated withthe shut, you know, the COVID's
and the lockdowns.
And I think there's a lot ofthere there potentially has been
(10:40):
some good things, right?
The ability that people canwork remotely, at least in
knowledge work.
At the same time, you know, Ithink it's made it easier for
people who were kind ofresistant to connecting with
people, you know, able to doeven less of that.
And I don't think that's a goodthing long term.
So uh I'll get off my soapboxnow.
(11:02):
Uh but so so I do I think it'sum the I there was something I
that you said that I wanted toto follow up on, which is but
you know, what it's it'sinteresting you're reading that
book about relationships becauseI often in my both in terms of
my regular coaching andmentoring of teams I've managed,
but also the coaching I do withothers as individuals,
(11:25):
particularly people who aremoving into leadership roles, is
a is a book that I uh in a in aclass I was able to take uh
years ago from based on the bookCrucial Confrontations.
Uh there's a second, there'sanother book by the same people
called Crucial Conversations,which I know less about, but I
think it's sort of the samegeneral thing, which is you
know, the way to have thesedifficult conversations about,
(11:47):
you know, trying to get a changein behavior or to convince
somebody to do something orwhatever, is really dependent on
how you frame the conversation,how to approach it.
And I think it creates but it'sit's one of those ones, it's
interesting.
The reason I bring it up isbecause you talked about you
reading this book that itapplies, sounds like it applies
both to personal andprofessional life, and which is
what I think of the uh that booktoo.
(12:07):
And I it's it's one of thebooks I universally recommend to
people.
I have kids who are now incollege, and I've been
recommending that to them too,like they're getting out into
the workforce.
So um, I mean, are you findingthat that's true of the book
you're reading?
What is it called again?
Sari Hegewald (12:25):
Uh it's it's us.
Um actually Well, I put you onthe spot.
Michael Hartmann (12:31):
Okay, here we go.
Sari Hegewald (12:33):
I'm I'm not that great with like remembering the
book titles.
I'm more about the contentthat's within it and the
lessons, but it is us gettingpast you and me to build a more
loving relationship.
And even though it's um, youknow, it's personal, like I
said, I try to apply it toeverything that I do because I
(12:56):
really do believe that in yourpersonal also meshes into your
professional life.
Um, you actually talked aboutuh I read the other book,
Crucial Conversations.
Yeah.
It it was we have a book clubhere at Serify, and that was one
of the books that they had thecompany, if you joined the book
club, had the company read.
(13:16):
And it really was a great bookbecause it it is something that
as we're collaborating, you haveto have those crucial
conversations.
And as you're trying to get, ummaybe you're just starting out,
you keep wanting to manager ordirector or vice president or C
level at some point.
Yeah, you you have to bewilling to actually sit back,
(13:40):
listen, maybe add some of whatyou heard from the other person
um into that conversation thatyou're gonna have with them
about the hard things that youmay need to talk about.
Maybe it's, you know, sorry,we've got to have that orange
button.
I hear what you're saying, youlove the color purple.
It's royal, it resembles royal.
(14:03):
Um, but the real goal here isthat we're trying to get more
engagement, we're trying to getmore conversions.
And the way to do that is thisway.
You're still taking intoconsideration how they feel
about something, um, so that youcan bring yourselves together
on the same page.
And that's really what the bookis about is being able to bring
(14:24):
people onto the same page,which you can bring into
leadership.
Michael Hartmann (14:27):
Yeah.
I I think I think one of thebiggest things I learned from
the Crucial Conversations bookwas not to not to assume intent.
Right.
So I think a lot of times, andI think especially true in in
optionals and marking optionsfor sure, where um we get
requests or are asked to dothings that we think are
(14:48):
unreasonable or don't makesense.
And are it's the the easiest,the easy reaction is just kind
of roll our eyes or huff or kindof the the if we're in our
maybe not our best selves,right?
Push back in a way that uhundermines relationship and
reputation.
And I think that's that's thething to avoid.
(15:11):
I mean, I go back to uh I wasjust trading messages uh on a
LinkedIn post or adding commentson a LinkedIn post yesterday um
that made me think again of aanother book that is The Seven
Habits of Highly AffectivePeople, also still a great book.
But Stephen Covey talks has astory in there where he's trying
to illustrate his don't makeassumptions about people's
(15:34):
intent or what's going on withthem.
And it's around his his pointof seek first to understand,
then be understood.
And yeah, um, I won't go intothe story, but so for those who
are interested, I highlyrecommend the book in general,
but also find that bit, find thestory about uh the story he
tells in that area.
(15:55):
It's it's phenomenal, and it'llprobably forever change how you
how you look at and respond tothings where you think someone's
coming in with some intent thatis malicious or or not.
And it I'm not saying that'snot not never going to be the
case, because clearly there aremalicious people or people with
malicious intent, but I I liketo believe it's the it's the
(16:17):
exception, not the rule.
Sari Hegewald (16:19):
And I second that book.
I have um come across that bookas well, and so I second that.
Uh and you know, you bring upmaliciousness, and I feel like
in marketing operations, atleast the position that I'm in,
you know, you we deal with umemails and form submissions that
are coming in because of thecontent that's going out.
(16:40):
And sometimes you get customersor prospects, obviously, that
are that are upset.
Michael Hartmann (16:46):
I know where you're going.
Sari Hegewald (16:48):
Um they're upset.
They're uh maybe they they hadopted into your um email
campaign and um they in nouncertain terms tell you they no
longer want to be.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Um but you know, you can takethat to heart, right, as a
negative comment, or you cansay, you know, where are they
(17:12):
coming from?
Maybe, maybe they had a badday, maybe they forgot, maybe
they just don't want to be apart of it anymore, whatever it
is.
Um, maybe learn learn from iteven.
Maybe they give you a littlebit of context of like, I don't
think this information pertainedto me, but maybe they thought
something else did.
A lot of times I'll actually goback and I'll look through the
(17:32):
the data of what that person'sopened or clicked on or filled
out other forms because we are acompany of 10 brands.
And so I'll go, oh, you knowwhat?
Maybe they really don't likeevents, but they really like to
know when we have discounts.
And they haven't told us thatyet.
You know, they haven't said,hey, I want events over
discounts or what have you.
(17:52):
But it might be on us to readthat data and understand where
that person is coming by the keyindicators of that data and
say, you know what?
Let's move this person.
Maybe they didn't say, Hey, Iwant to unsubscribe.
Of course, if they said that,we would take them completely
out.
But maybe they were just like,Why are you sending this to me?
This content isn't pertains tome.
(18:13):
We write them back, we say,Hey, you know what, we're taking
a look through your data, andum, it looks like you really
like it when we send youdiscounts.
Would you agree that that'sreally more of what you're
looking for?
It's a little bit more of apersonal challenge.
We can't always do that, and Iunderstand, but making that
customer prospect feel specialgoes a long way because now it's
(18:35):
even word of mouth, right?
Yeah, you're able to understandwhere that person's at through
the key indicators of the data,but also understanding where
they could be at by just knowinghow the brain works.
And now word of mouth is goingeven more further, like, hey,
they've reached out to me.
Like, I can't believe this.
Michael Hartmann (18:54):
They pay attention.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, I think I think thatreally helps.
Okay, so uh during ourintroduction, we kind of talked,
so like you've got a prettylarge team.
I mean, 10 people um formarketing apps is pretty
substantial these days, I'd say.
So, how do you um how do youhelp the team stay connected to
(19:17):
you know in the in theirday-to-day job and how that's
connected to the strategy?
And and then kind of to yourpoint, right?
How do you stay connected towhat's going on?
What's the data telling youabout your customers and
prospects?
Sari Hegewald (19:30):
Yeah, actually, I don't think we talked about
this before, but um we're afully remote company.
So it's you know, you've got towork even harder to come
together and stay connected.
Um and because of that, we dothings like you know, constant
check-ins.
We have comp uh not company, uhteam meetings, and then we have
(19:55):
individual meetings, and thenwe have events, just you know,
each department's type meetingsalong with marketing operations.
Plus, we do do um a couple offun things to try to bring
together that um personalitybecause I do feel like if you
bring in a little bit morepersonable, you tend to connect
a little bit more.
Same type of thing you wouldget in an office.
(20:16):
So we do things like Luna Park,which is a remote team
building.
Um, and then we um I alsoinform the teams the 15th and
the end of every month, how eachbrand is doing within the
different departments.
So maybe it's form submissions,maybe it's email, maybe it's
(20:36):
events, maybe it's the creative,but the team as marketing
operations gets informed fullyof all of the departments and
where we may need to have somefocuses and where we're doing
great in other places.
Um, we really lean into Slackand all of the channels that
we're able to do through there.
And that's really how we wework together.
Michael Hartmann (20:58):
So I'm just curious because uh I'm married
to someone who absolutely hatesSlack because it's just another
interruption, um I canappreciate.
But where I've seen it workwell is where there's sort of I
don't want to say rules, but umguidelines, yes, you know, about
how and when to use that versusother channels, you know.
(21:19):
How do you do you have somesome guidelines for like that
for that?
Sari Hegewald (21:24):
Yeah, so the one thing that we do try to do with
channels is it's intentional,right?
Um we have this one channelthat everybody doesn't know what
to do with, and I think it'sbecause it's uh not intentional,
so it's called random.
So people just can put randomthings in there, but it it kind
of gets all a little wacky and alittle all over the place.
(21:45):
Whereas we make a channel justfor maybe one campaign.
Hey, we're only gonna talkabout this campaign in here so
that we can stay focused, we canstay together.
It's just like having a ameeting you would in the office,
right?
Because that channel isdedicated to that.
So as long as you have theintention, you have the goals of
(22:06):
that channel, and you let theother members know, you also
have to have someone that'swilling to be able to be like,
you know what, that's not forthis channel.
Here's the other channel thatthis that would be great for,
you know, kind of a policeofficer in a way, I guess.
Michael Hartmann (22:23):
Well, I so I I think I realized I I did a poor
job of answering my question.
I really meant forgotten aboutSlack having channels.
I meant Slack versus emailversus text message versus
what's whatever you you know,other the other places where you
could communicate.
Sari Hegewald (22:42):
Yeah.
Well, so that okay, uh I seewhere you're going now.
The way that I do it is Iactually ask the person what's
their preferred method.
There are a lot of people inour company that prefer email
over Slack, they're less likelyto look at Slack.
So I do ask the teams to askfor the preferred type of method
(23:04):
and then work in that way.
Most of our team, because thecompany does direct us that way,
is to use Slack.
But that doesn't work foreverybody, and that's okay.
If I'm actually trying to get ahold of my manager, though, I
use I use like a priority typeof messaging system.
I try Slack, and then if thatdoesn't work, I text message.
(23:26):
And if that doesn't work, thenI, you know, I start sending
pigeons out the window of like,hey, I need to go.
Michael Hartmann (23:32):
Fire signals, yeah.
Sari Hegewald (23:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (23:35):
Yeah, smoke signals.
Uh yeah, so I've been in placestoo where um it's it's
interesting.
Uh I also think there's goodpractice.
Um, I was on a leadership,marketing leadership team a few
years ago, and at one of ourmeetings, some people raised
their hands and said, like,we're getting frustrated, Mr.
CMO, because we're gettingstuff over the weekends and late
at night and we're like feellike it's not fair to us.
(23:57):
And this is a good point aboutmake not making assumptions.
He he was like, I I didn'tintend for you to respond then,
right?
It was just convenient for meto communicate.
And it it sparked a healthyconversation about how do we
know, like, and he's like,here's how I'll tell you if I
need something urgently.
You know, I'll tell I'll sendyou, maybe send you a Slack, but
(24:18):
I'll also text you.
Like, I need this soon.
If I don't do that, treat it asif it's you know, within a
reasonable amount of time,right?
You don't, but you don't needto respond right then, over the
weekend, overnight, whatever.
And I think um that's that's areally good thing to do, is to
be really clear about what theexpectations on are on
(24:39):
communication, because I thinkit's easy to get overwhelmed and
feel like every you have torespond to everything right when
it comes in.
And definitely um, I think so.
I'm glad to hear that you'velike that hierarchy of
communication threads, right,based on urgency is a good good
model, I think, to use.
Um one of the things that wetalked about before is you you
(25:03):
mentioned this term, and I Ilove this idea.
Like you you said that, andwe've kind of touched on it a
little bit, that you think ofthe the I guess I'll call them
stakeholders, but um, thatmarketing ops serves as
personas.
So can you walk me through,like walk our audience through
what do you mean, like first ofall what do you mean by that?
Sari Hegewald (25:21):
And then what are the I think I had three is what
I had be from our conversation,but whatever the that number is
well um I think it also dependson the company that you're at,
right?
Your unique situation, everycompany is different.
But um, for us when we'rethinking about it, we have our
customers' prospects, whichtechnically you could even split
(25:44):
into two because they thinkcompletely different.
Michael Hartmann (25:46):
Yeah.
Um well, I think you should, Ithink you should treat them
differently for sure.
Sari Hegewald (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, you know, if you'reif you're sending a new
product, you already have kindof buy-in from customers on your
brand, whereas prospects, youdon't have that brand buy-in
yet.
So you have to work a littlebit harder and differently.
So you definitely have thedifferent personas there.
And then you have your internalmarketing team and you have
(26:11):
your cross-functional teams,your sales, your products, your
C-level um leadership, all thevarious different types of
teams.
Um, and then not only thegreater marketing team, but your
own team, uh, you have to, youhave to be thinking about all
these different parts andpieces.
And I think that's what makesmarketing operations so great,
(26:31):
right?
You get to, you get to thinkabout all of that.
That's the exciting thing.
You get to put all those gearsinto place.
And I imagine it like whereyou're like have a turnstile,
right?
And the gears are all workingtogether because you finally fit
them well enough that the wateris now flowing or something
like that.
Michael Hartmann (26:50):
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
I mean, I I agree with you.
Like it's one of the things I Ilove about ops roles and
marketing ops in particular,because I think of there's
obviously like other parts ofmarketing, uh, sales, sales
operations, um, finance, right,or FPA, um, legal, and then
C-suite, right?
I mean, you kind of if you'reif if you're you know at a even
(27:13):
up to a sort of a moderatelysized company, I think you have
you would normally haveinteractions with all of those
different kinds of stakeholders.
And probably if they're doingcustomer marketing or customer
success, like you should be intalks with those teams too,
right?
And management existingaccounts and clients.
So um, but and I think that'smaybe this is the tie tie
(27:35):
together, right?
So from a psychologystandpoint, one of the things I
always tell people who getespecially get frustrated with
sales teams, having been insales myself before, is you've
got to put yourself in theirshoes, right?
If you don't understand um whattheir incentives are, you know,
it's gonna be really hard.
Like I remember at a companywhere uh multiple sales teams,
(27:57):
one in particular out that itwas high volume, uh relatively
lower uh you know average dealsize, but still substantial.
And I remember talking tosomebody who had used was in
sales, sales ops or salesenablement, uh, who had been in
that team before, and I wasgetting really, I was sort of
describing some frustration Iwas having, getting some change
in behavior there.
(28:18):
And I asked a question that Ithought I knew the answer to,
which was you know, what's theircompensation structure?
Well, it because I assumed thatthere was a pretty, you know, a
standard sales one that was uhbased on what they sold, and it
was like, no, it was base plusplus bonus, and the bonus was
more or less somewhat tied to uhindividual achievement, but not
(28:38):
totally.
And um I was like, oh, thisexplains a lot, right?
No, so I'm gonna have to goapproach them in terms of trying
to get changed a different way.
I couldn't tie it, I couldn'tuse the carrot of this.
What I'm asking you to do, yes,is I'm asking you to do some
digital stuff, whether it waslike updating Salesforce in a
certain way or something.
(28:59):
I can't tie it to that's gonnahelp your compensation, right?
Or your place on thescoreboard, which is probably
actually more where most thebest salespeople live.
And it was really interestingto kind of think through that
and go like, oh, I need tochange my strategy because of
what I now know about that teamand the people.
Um I I couldn't base it on whatI assumed I knew about the
(29:23):
team.
Sari Hegewald (29:24):
Yeah, I think I think you hit it on the nose,
and it's something that I'm sureyou learned from and integrated
like into each position thatyou were in and situation.
Um I think that that's probablythe a really important part in
order to understand how tocollaborate and how to get your
campaign to almost be important,right?
(29:47):
When it comes to marketingoperations, the things that
you're doing, we get to betechnical in marketing
operations.
And when you talk to anotherperson, ops, you get to be
technical with them.
But when you're explainingoutside of that, like Sales.
I always started and I'm like,look, I geek out on this stuff
and I love it, but let me knowwhen I need to pull back, and
you're you guys are just glazingover at this point, and it
(30:10):
doesn't pertain to you.
I will understand that and thenbe able to learn from that and
pull back.
I also in sales, especially, wereally need to understand
marketing, marketing ops.
Where, because sales is ournumber one partner.
Where are they at?
Where are they at in theirthinking, especially as you're
(30:31):
sharing sales, sales enablementtoolkit things or battle cards,
tips, whatever?
Um, where are they at?
Where are their frustrationpoints?
Where are their goals so thatyou can match what you're doing
with what they're doing, andthen you guys can make your
goals grow together and actuallyachieve them.
So it's just is a totalunderstanding, like you
(30:53):
experienced of understandingwhere they're coming at.
Michael Hartmann (30:56):
Yeah, which is kind of a psychology thing,
kind of understanding humanbehavior in a general sense,
too.
So yeah, yeah.
So you brought you brought upcampaigns.
Um and I don't remember thedetails, but one of the things
that you and I talked aboutbefore was something I think you
called it the love to learncampaign.
And I don't remember was thatan internal campaign, like with
(31:18):
sales teams, or was it withcustomers, prospects?
Like what was that?
Can you like tell us aboutthat?
Sari Hegewald (31:24):
Yeah, it's actually it's with prospects.
Um, it's for our continuingeducation brands.
And what we were seeing aftertalking to several different
departments in the sales org iswhat they were telling us is
like, you know, we call we callthese these prospects and
they're like, yeah, I get mycontinuing education through my
(31:44):
company.
They get it through a differentuh a company, uh different
company that's like yours.
I don't need to talk with you.
But I everybody is that, right?
If we're in continuingeducation, all of our
competitors are going to be theexact same thing.
So one of the things that uh asales leader brought up is to go
after the aspect of peoplereally want to learn.
(32:06):
It's not just satisfying theircontinuing education credits,
it's going broader than that.
It's like, yeah, I understandyou've got you've got a provider
for that.
But what about just continuingto learn?
We have hundreds of coursesthat you can broaden your
knowledge with and get evenbetter and understand um your
(32:27):
customers more, whereas yourcompetitor might not have that.
We're not looking to satisfynecessarily your continuing
education credits, which we'lldo, but we're looking to help
you to learn so that you cangrow as a professional and in
your career and for your otherfor your company.
So that's really how Love toLearn came about, and it's been
(32:49):
completely successful.
I mean, in the f first 48hours, uh, we had our
subscriptions increase uh overe-commerce, and um it just
continues to do that.
So it was a significantincrease and it looked really,
really good.
Michael Hartmann (33:08):
And it it started with feedback from sales
teams.
Is that what you're saying?
Sari Hegewald (33:12):
Yes.
Yeah, it started with feedbackfrom several different sales
teams, and then there was aspecific leader that spoke up
and said, you know, one thingthat we encounter a lot on our
phone calls is the fact thatpeople are really just looking
to learn.
We don't necessarily need tosay, hey, we're another
continuing education provider.
(33:32):
Would you like to get yourcourse, you know, your
coursework done through us?
Michael Hartmann (33:36):
Right.
I mean, that's kind of theyeah, it it's a it's a mirror or
anal analogous to the the wholeiPod campaign, right?
Which started out as yeah,whatever formats, how many songs
you could have on your iPod,yada, yada, yada, all the
technical specs.
And when they shifted to athousand songs in your pocket,
(33:56):
right, it it changed, right?
So it's like, what's thefeeling you're trying to elicit
from the prospect?
Sari Hegewald (34:03):
Yeah, exactly.
It I mean, it's it's reallyunderstanding and flipping it on
its head of like, okay, thatthat isn't working.
Like that, that isn't working.
We had a whole other campaigntoo that we actually just
launched.
It's called Mythbreakers forour CFA um category.
Before we were just veryproduct focused, we were like,
(34:24):
hey, we have thisinstructor-led, we've never had
that before.
It did okay, but once we didthe myth breakers of like
breaking down the things thatthat this community is hearing
and whether it's true or not,and how we support those
different items, I mean, it'sbecome a conversation now,
right?
Because it's like, oh, I heardit takes 300 hours to study for
(34:47):
this.
Well, maybe, but here's whythat may or may not be true.
And it's it's just it's reallyspeaking to them instead of
speaking at them andunderstanding where they're at.
Michael Hartmann (34:59):
Do you I mean, were you able to have a little
bit of it sounds like that'swhen it has a little bit of a I
don't know, humor, kind ofpoking fun at your own self or
your own audience, right?
In as part of it.
Is that is that true?
Sari Hegewald (35:13):
Uh yeah, a little bit.
I mean, with this particularaudience, they're um financial
analysts.
Yeah.
So you don't want to get toohumorous.
Yeah.
So you try to stay a little bitmore um to the point.
But you definitely can poke funand get a little bit fun with
it, which is why Myth Breakersworks.
I mean, I kind of think ofGhostbusters, right?
(35:34):
Right.
And the mystery of it all.
Michael Hartmann (35:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's funny because Ium what that made me think this
is gonna age me, as it manythings do.
There's an old um companycalled Blend Tech, which is they
made blenders.
Some households.
I remember that.
Remember this Will It Blendbit?
Sari Hegewald (35:53):
Yes, I love those videos.
Michael Hartmann (35:56):
Yeah, so um I always thought those were great.
I have no idea if they didanything other than you know,
raise brand awareness or helpwith financials, but like I love
that they were just like thecrazy stuff they did, right?
Um starting out with the handleof the rake and eventually
getting to the Chuck Norrisdoll, right?
Um, and so and everything else,a cell phone.
(36:18):
So um, yeah, I mean I think Ido think B2B, I I think I think
I would love to see more B2Borganizations be a little more
playful with their messaging,right?
Even to audiences like yours,which tend to be very fairly
serious things, right?
(36:39):
Yeah, um, I get there arecertain industries where that's
probably even harder to do,where there's highly regulated,
right?
But I mean, like we don't allhave to be serious all the time.
Sari Hegewald (36:49):
I mean, they're they're humans too, right?
Like you go out and watch funnymovies or maybe watch a
comedian or like to kick back alittle bit.
They don't want to be stressedout by financial numbers all the
time.
Right.
So you can have that little bitof fun um respectfully.
Michael Hartmann (37:08):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I think that's uh I thinkthat's good.
Um well, let's let's go into alittle bit.
We I kind of hinted at this umin the introduction, but this
whole idea of being data drivenseems to have become the
dominant force in marketing, inthe marketing world.
Um and I I struggle with thatbecause I'm a data nerd to some
(37:33):
degree.
But um you and I talked aboutthis, and you you know, sort of
tying empathy and intuition withdata and trusting in intuition
versus just purely metrics.
Like, how do you think aboutthose things um in what you with
your team?
Sari Hegewald (37:52):
Yeah, we think about it together, is what it
is.
Um I I geek out on numbers too,right?
But I geek out on numbersbecause it tells us a story and
it tells us, it gives us keyindicators of where we need to
go.
But there's also gut feelingstoo, right?
Of like mixing that in.
(38:14):
Of we have we have a brand thatpart of the pieces of it is
telling us, man, it's doinggreat.
I mean, like, we are gettingdemos all over the place, uh,
form submissions, the emails areengaging.
We're we're hitting thosenumbers, but at the same time,
(38:34):
we're not seeing that customerbase grow.
So they're key indicators oftelling us a story, but it's a
gut reaction of okay, the emailsare doing great and the forms
are doing great, but are theyreally?
Are they doing great becausethey're just these these people
are getting something for free,like a free demo, and then
(38:57):
they're just walking away andwe're not nurturing them a
little bit more.
Right.
Um it's it's trying to find outwhere are the gaps that you can
connect that story in thenumbers to help you to tell even
a better story.
It's it's just I believe it'sum the data is just the support,
right?
It's not, it shouldn't be likethe exact, like one plus one
(39:22):
equals two.
Yes, I agree with you, butthat's supporting the
mathematical equation.
What is that equation that weneed to figure out?
And that is where the thinkingcomes behind it, the psychology
comes behind it, and putting allof those pieces together.
Michael Hartmann (39:40):
Yeah, I think um Yeah, my take on this is
informed by a couple differentthings, but probably big biggest
one is to your point, like oneplus one equals two, yes.
But the problem is forespecially in B2B world, right?
Marketing and sales data isjust never quote correct, right?
It's just never gonna becomplete, correct, and there's a
(40:03):
lot of reasons for that.
And this is why I I kind ofhave a reaction to data driven,
because it implies there's animplication there in my mind
that says um the data is gonnatell us what to do next.
Sari Hegewald (40:16):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (40:16):
And and I just don't believe that's the case,
right?
I think I think you know, ifyou re- and I and what I see
happen is people start reportingon this data, people around us
start questioning it, and theylose trust, or um they don't
they they spend uh extremeamounts of time, effort, money
(40:39):
to quote, get the data right,end quote.
And and and until they feellike that's right, which will
never happen, right?
They don't act.
And I think there's thisthere's this fine line where you
have to balance, like, I wantenough data to inform what I'm
doing.
I also need to trust my ex, youknow, experience, intuition,
(41:01):
right, to go like, am I, am I,are we heading in the right
direction?
Does this seem like this willwork?
And um, I think that's kind ofwhere I land.
It's like I the data's never beright or complete or to the
level we want.
And so you have to be able tobe willing to do things without
all that data, which is a littledifferent than go trusting the
(41:22):
data to tell you exact things,which it never will in this like
this is not a this is notfinancial data, right?
Whether it's yeah, commonlanguage, extreme levels of
control, right, all that kind ofstuff that makes it more
trustworthy, even knowing thatthere are people who are bad
actors out there that do thingswith that, but set that aside,
(41:43):
right?
That's I still think that's theexception, not the rule.
Sari Hegewald (41:46):
Yeah.
I mean, I I I see where you'regoing with it.
And I even think about if I goback to the love to learn and I
implement it there, the datawasn't necessarily telling us
the next step when we were aboutthe CE providers.
It was the feedback that wewere getting from the sales team
that we added into the data,right?
(42:06):
And it was also the feedback ofcustomers and prospects telling
us, hey, I want to hear someoneanother company tell me another
reason why I should go withyou.
Michael Hartmann (42:17):
Right.
Sari Hegewald (42:18):
And that we were never going to get that from the
data, from numbers.
We'll get it from maybe surveyresults, but surveys you if you
don't ask it in the right way,or be there right next to the
person explaining what you'retrying to really get after,
sometimes survey results caneven be a little bit wonky of
where it's telling you to go.
Michael Hartmann (42:39):
Yeah.
So so much of a survey's umusefulness is dependent on it's
the way it's been built.
Sari Hegewald (42:46):
And yeah.
Michael Hartmann (42:47):
And and there's an expertise that I
don't have.
And I I've been asked to dosurveys, like post-training
surveys internally, fine.
The the risk is low, but Ithink if you're trying to do
surveys or uh market research,right, you need people who know
what they're doing, otherwiseyou're gonna get biased and
flawed feedback.
Yes.
Sari Hegewald (43:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So and it depends on the surveytaker.
I know from for me, forinstance, if you tell me to
score myself one through ten,I'm never gonna pick ten because
I always feel like you know,something could be better.
Absolutely.
But that but the company that'sgiving me that survey may not
feel that that question was whathow they were posing it.
Michael Hartmann (43:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think there's lots of uhcould be as simple as like I
asked you the question about uhSlack versus other channels, and
yeah, you interpreted it oneway, right?
And it's not neither of us wasright or wrong.
It was just you had one thingin your head, I had a different
thing, and until you answeredit, I I had then I could correct
it.
(43:50):
But yeah, if it was a uh if itwas asynchronous, right, there's
no opportunity for that.
Sari Hegewald (43:56):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, exactly.
Michael Hartmann (43:59):
Um, so I I want to do a little bit of a
follow-up.
So you mentioned this idea oflike personally responding to
some customer feedback, likereplies to your emails where
maybe they weren't nice, theyuse uh color colorful language.
Uh yeah.
So we put I think we've allseen that.
Um yeah, one of the things Ithink I would net I like my head
(44:21):
went to was well, that soundslike the kind of thing that AI
would be really useful in tryingto maybe either I personally
wouldn't probably trust it rightaway to do an automated kind of
response, but um, it could beuseful at identifying maybe
drafting kind of responses,things like that.
Do you like I I think we talkeda little bit about like you
(44:43):
still think robotic, there's arobotic kind of nature of AI and
automation that can come acrossas cold, whatever.
Um, so maybe not like you cando this in the context of AI
because it's a hot topic, butjust in marketing operations in
general, right?
Like, how do we avoid that kindof coming across as robotic,
(45:04):
cold, you know, um not personal,I guess is the way I don't know
what else titles to describeit.
Sari Hegewald (45:12):
Yeah.
So I love AI.
I really do.
I um I love working withChatGPT.
We use it in other programsthat have AI features too.
And uh even here at Cerify,we're growing AI within our LMS.
But as long as you're not, whenyou're drafting a response,
(45:32):
you're not taking it at facevalue of what AI said, right?
That's the one thing is AIstill isn't thinking necessarily
of how the other person isthinking, how you may be
thinking, the situation.
It it takes all of that into alittle bit into effect.
But as long as we're takingwhat AI drafts and we're looking
at it and we're tweaking it toexactly, you know, the point we
(45:56):
may be trying to get across, orum, the campaign changes of
where we really see things andtruly understand, I think that's
how we become less robotic.
We don't let AI be the answer,the sole answer.
It's AI plus us, right?
That's how we we use AI andbecome less robotic.
Michael Hartmann (46:17):
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So keep the human in the in theelement, and in the middle of
it.
I get it.
Yeah.
Um, okay, so we've covered alot of ground.
Why don't we wrap up with kindof a pretty broad topic, which
is especially given that you'vegot a pretty large team, right?
And you described a little bitof what you do to build
connections, but how do youbuild kind of a deeper level, a
(46:40):
culture that encourages thekinds of things that you are
describing, right?
Curiosity, learning,human-centered, you know, all
those kind of problem solving.
How do you, how do you what aresome things that you've done or
would encourage people to do totry to help with that in their
own organizations?
Sari Hegewald (46:58):
Um, I think it really comes down to two things
for me.
One is I trust the members onthe team are the experts.
Um, they know what they'redoing.
We have them on the team for areason.
Um, so I really put a lot oftrust into the things that they
want to do.
And especially as they bring upideas, I'm like, yeah, let's
(47:19):
run with it.
You came up with it, let's seeit.
Let's see the success, thefailure, whatever it may be.
Um, and the other thing is, isI do ask a lot of questions.
I'm the questionator.
So, but I I question, yeah, Iquestion so that the other
person gets to thinking aboutit.
If I just give the answer oflike, this was wrong because of
(47:42):
this, because of this, or thiswas right because of this, I
want them thinking about it,which gets them curious of like,
oh, you know what?
I'm not really sure.
Maybe I should ask before Ianswer you.
Hold on, let me let me let meask someone about that answer.
Right.
It really gets them thinking,and then they become involved in
it and they have more ownershipin it.
(48:03):
So that's that's really the thetwo key factors that I push on.
Michael Hartmann (48:08):
Yeah, I love this idea of asking questions.
And I know it can it'sinteresting.
I just listened to anotherpodcast this morning, listening
to a leader talk about how shehired, and she said one of the
questions she asks people waslike what kind of boss do they
work best under.
But I think what wasinteresting is she described
(48:29):
herself as someone who's gonnabe like she avoided people who
said they didn't like to bemicromanaged because she knew
herself well enough to know thatshe didn't say she would
micromanage, but she would,especially onboarding a senior
person.
She said she described she knewshe would be actively involved
with that onboarding and askingthem, supporting them on a like
what could come across asmicromanaging, that's not the
(48:50):
intent, but she said she asked alot of questions, and that
resonated with me, like yoursdid too, because I also have
been told I ask a lot ofquestions.
And for me, it's it's some ofthat of have you have you
thought about kind of stuff,right?
When it comes with the ideas,and I'm I'm totally with you on
believing like you're theexpert, right?
Like that's like that.
I agree with so I want them tobe feel um you have agency to
(49:15):
come up with ideas andsolutions.
Um doesn't mean they get to doall of them, right?
I don't set that ex that as theexpectation.
But the other part is just, Imean, what happened on again,
what happened in ourconversation earlier, right?
Part of it is just to clarify,like make sure that we're all
like that we're when you saycampaign, right, or contact,
(49:36):
right?
Like words that I especiallywhen it's words that I know from
experience can be uh havewildly different um
interpretations or meaningdepending on the context that
somebody has.
I will ask questions over andover and over to clarify.
And I think there are somepeople who kind of get
frustrated with that, and Idon't care.
(49:56):
Yeah.
Because I think it's way betterto have that clarity early on
than later.
Sari Hegewald (50:01):
Definitely, and you're on the same page, they'll
appreciate, they may notappreciate it right then and
there, yeah, but they will laterbecause they're like, man, that
person really understands me.
They on they were on the samesame wavelength.
Yeah, it goes a long way.
Michael Hartmann (50:17):
Agreed.
Um I also think like that as isa handy, it's a good tool if
you're working collaborativelycollaboratively with people
outside of your normal sort ofexpertise domain.
So, example, right, when you'reworking with sales or sales
ops, right?
If you're talking about leadsand lead handoff, right, you
(50:37):
want to get as specific aspossible about the language
because there can bemisinterpretations.
And some of that is driven bydeep technical system knowledge,
right?
I know that a lead record inSalesforce is different than a
contact record, which isdifferent than the lead where
lead and general, like all thesethings matter.
(50:59):
And uh, I think I've I've beenin too many scenarios where um
two things have happened, right?
One is there was a nod noddingheads, but actually a lack of
understanding, which led toproblems down line.
The other I've seen, which iswhat I've called violent
agreement, right?
Where people think in themoment they're disagreeing about
(51:21):
something, and when you askenough questions and poke at it,
they're actually saying thesame thing with different words
and not realizing it, right?
Sari Hegewald (51:28):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (51:28):
Um both of which can be damaging to
long-term relationships.
Sari Hegewald (51:33):
Yeah.
I mean, um, I guesscommunication and clarification,
right, are key.
So that's great.
Lean into that.
You have the you have worldpeace.
Michael Hartmann (51:43):
There we go.
So there we go.
We solved world peace.
Yeah, that's a good place toend.
Yeah.
So, Sari, thank you so much.
This has been a funconversation.
I've really enjoyed it, and Iknow that our listeners and
viewers will as well.
If people want to continue thatconversation with you or keep
up with what you're doing, uh,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Sari Hegewald (52:04):
Yeah, that'd be awesome.
I love talking.
Uh, I say I love geeking out onanything marketing, especially
marketing tech.
So please reach out to me onLinkedIn.
Um, it's Sari Hegelwald.
I think I might be the onlySari Hegelwald.
I I could be wrong, but ifanyone finds another Sari
Hegeld, please let me knowbecause I'd love to know.
(52:25):
Otherwise, just reach outthrough there.
Michael Hartmann (52:28):
Terrific.
Sounds good.
Well, again, thank you.
Thanks to our listeners and nowviewers.
We appreciate the support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can always reach out toNaomi, Mike, or me uh directly
or through the marketingops.comcommunity, and we'd be happy to
talk about that.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
Sari Hegewald (52:48):
Thanks so much.
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