March 3, 2025 • 47 mins
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In a dynamic exploration of the intersection between sales and marketing operations, we dive deep into the journey of Kanwal Ibrahim, a seasoned Marketing Operations Manager at OffSec. Her background in sales armed her with unique insights that many marketing professionals may overlook. Kanwal shares pivotal lessons she learned as she transitioned into operations, emphasizing the importance of understanding the sales funnel and the customer journey.
Listeners will discover how data transparency informs better strategic decisions, highlighting the vital connection between sales and marketing. With her experience, Kanwal illustrates the necessity of fostering collaborative relationships across teams, ensuring effective communication that leads to aligned objectives. By unpacking her approach to process optimization and structure, Kanwal offers a roadmap for those aiming to enhance their marketing efforts.
Moreover, she illustrates the significance of being open to feedback, a lesson that transcends the boundaries of sales and marketing. Whether navigating through CRM systems or understanding metrics, her perspective serves as a guide to help listeners refine their operations strategy. This episode is a must-listen for professionals at all levels looking to bridge the gap between sales and marketing operations. Share your thoughts with us on social media or subscribe for more insider insights!
Connect with Kanwal Ibrahim on LinkedIn here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
those MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying solo once again today.
I am hopeful that we'll getNaomi or Mike or both, back soon
.
Joining me today is KanwalIbrahim, currently Marketing
Operations Manager at OffSec.
Before her role in marketingoperations, she held various
(00:24):
roles in revenue operations orsales operations and analyst
roles in that area as well, butshe started her career in sales,
holding several account managerand executive and senior
account executive roles atmultiple companies.
So we're going to hopefullytalk a little bit about the
lessons she learned and how itapplies to what she's doing now.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So, ken, well, thank you for joining me today she
learned and how it applies towhat she's doing now.
So, ken, well, thank you forjoining me today.
Great, thank you so much.
I'm so grateful to be on,michael.
Honestly, I've been on the MopsAlliance Slack channel for
quite a bit and when Audreyreached out and mentioned about
you, it just seemed like such agreat opportunity and, again,
just very excited to be on thepodcast.
When we initially met, I knowwe definitely had a really great
(01:05):
conversation.
I got to learn about yourbackground and obviously speak
to mine.
So definitely excited to justdiscuss my background today in
sales revenue operations and howthat's really helped shape my
approach to marketing.
I know obviously we're going togo into detail as well, but
again, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Of course, we're always glad to have people with
different perspectives.
So, while we start, so I I didthe like I was going to say 10
second, I'm not even sure it was10 second review of your career
.
Um, while we started, like this, so you've been.
You started your career in kindof a sales, sales oriented
roles where you actually Iassume you had, like you had a
(01:40):
quota and all that kind of stuff.
But how long have you been inoperations roles, whether it's
marketing ops or revenue ops,and then what have you found to
be the biggest challenge withthose roles?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, definitely.
So I transitioned over fromsales into sales operations
slash revenue operations in 2021.
So obviously that was the kindof time of COVID I was in that
part of my journey where I feltlike it was the right time to
transition and use theexperience that I had really
found within sales and reallychallenge myself, take advantage
(02:14):
of what I was looking for,which is more structure.
I was always very curious aboutjust how the stocks are just
made.
I wanted to look more inside,into the strategic operational
role as well, rather than justfocusing on, like an individual
customer interaction, which isalready what I have had
experience in.
I've also always, always had alove for data, for reporting,
(02:36):
for process optimization andobviously we'll go into that in
detail as well.
So that timeframe in 2021, Iliterally looked at my resume, I
looked at my experience and Ithink, like a lot of people, I
really thought to myself is thiswhat I want to keep doing and
how do I want to build on myselfand in my career journey?
So in that timeframe, I satdown, read out my resume and I
(02:57):
was grateful enough to be giventhe opportunity by my last
company, delos.
I moved over and tuned thatrole in 2021.
I started off as an analyst, soI was a senior analyst in sales,
which then became salesoperations, which then
transitioned into revenueoperations.
I was very grateful.
I learned a lot in that role.
I was able to get promotedtwice, so I went from analyst to
(03:20):
associate in revenue operations.
So I did that for about threeyears and then in early 2024, I
actually made the transitionofficially to marketing
operations.
Again, very excited to be inthis role.
I'm at OffSec, obviously.
I've been here for close to ayear.
Definitely a lot of growth, alot of learnings.
I work with some fantasticpeople and time really flies
(03:44):
when you're having fun andyou're always learning.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I'm just curious because I probably have
an idea in my head of what ananalyst in revenue operations,
sales operations, says.
But what were some of thethings you did in that kind of
role?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, definitely so.
In sales operations andmarketing operations there's a
lot of similarities that tie intogether.
So you're working around likequotas, like helping to set
quotas.
You're working around,obviously, generating quotes.
You're working around creatinga lot of proposals.
You're also doing, depending onthe role, obviously, depending
on small companies you're goingto be raising a lot of hats so
(04:18):
you might be involved inenablement, for example.
So I did kind of a lot of thosethings.
Like territory assignments andthings like that too Territory
assignments, just making surelead routing was done properly,
For example it was a muchsmaller sales team, but I still
got the opportunity to be ableto work with sales very hands-on
.
We also helped with just likeprocess mapping.
So again, a lot of it overlaysessentially with marketing
(04:41):
operations, operations,operations, but you're more
obviously on the sales side,right.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So during that role is also where I started using
HubSpot more in detail, I wouldsay I was basically like their
app and I had a consultant thatI was working with in Delos, but
I also started just taking overthe platform holistically
myself, sure, and that'sactually where I started working
with the marketing team quiteactively, I would say so I was
(05:07):
involved in creating forms,landing pages, helping them a
lot with metrics, data reporting, which channels are performing
what wasn't performing, andbeing able to give insights, and
that was a really greatlearning opportunity for me.
It also gave me the ability toalso understand, like are you
cool?
What's working, what's notworking, starting to get
(05:28):
feedback, obviously from sales,relaying that back to marketing,
especially when it came toevent and campaign performance.
So during that role, I wouldsay technically I was revenue
operations, but I was veryhands-on with the marketing team
.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, so kind of a liaison role with them.
Okay, I'm so curious.
So please don't be offended,but my experience with most
salespeople is it's interestingthat you said that you were
looking for structure.
I don't know most salespeople Iknow.
I mean to some degree, yes, Imean I think the best ones are
pretty good about it, keep beingorganized and all that kind of
stuff.
(06:01):
But, um, so I'm just curious,like what do you think?
Let me back up and we'll getinto more of this.
I think about, like the thingsthat overlap between revenue ops
or sales ops and marketing opsand what doesn't.
But curious about from thebeginning, like from a sales
standpoint, like when you weredoing account account executive
(06:22):
kind of roles are there anyskills, things that you learned
from there that you think havehelped you, that you did carry
forward to that as well?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, absolutely, you're saying skills from my
sales experience that helped mewith marketing operations.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Or your revenue operations.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
No, definitely.
So I think, just with structure.
I mean, I've always had adesire for more structure, right
?
I think, depending on thecompany you're in, the role that
you're doing and how good of asalesperson you are, you can
definitely, as long as you'remanaging your book of business
well and you have a very clearidea of how you want to handle
the day, you're going to be agreat sales rep.
You're going to be medium, notthat great.
I think it kind of ties in alltogether with your overall work
(07:05):
ethic as well, Connecting thatwith revenue operations and then
obviously market and operationsin general.
I would say one of the things Ireally enjoyed about this role
within a general is the abilityto get a better understanding of
processes and systems, andthat's something that I find
very interesting aboutoperations understanding what's
happening behind the scenes.
(07:25):
So I would say structure in adifferent capacity, because
you're always thinking aboutwhat if, then almost if.
That makes sense, I think, froma sales perspective, which one
thing I've definitely taken awayis that you're sort of focused,
you're building relationships,you're doing your outreach,
you're obviously doing yourfollow-ups.
You sort of know exactly whatyour day-to-day looks like With
operations.
It's a different kind ofstructure.
(07:45):
You're focusing on how salesfunnels works right.
You're working towards leadgeneration campaign management.
You're definitely you're beinga lot more strategic, and that's
the side of operations that Ireally enjoy, I would say, in
terms of my sales experience,and I think why it's really
helpful in operations in generalis it's given me the ability to
really connect with audienceright.
(08:07):
So you have your end client insales.
Those are obviously the teamsthat you work with.
So in sales, you have whoeveryour end customer is right.
When I was at SoftDoc, our endcustomer were providers right.
When I was at Indeed, my endcustomers were HR, for example.
Right At OffSec, it's going tobe your different titles, like
your CTOs, your CISOs, forexample.
(08:28):
So obviously, essentially,you're always going to be able
to build a relationship withwhoever your audience is.
Connecting that back withoperations, my audience is now
internal instead of external, sothat's a really big difference.
But I'm still kind of likeselling right.
Whether I'm creating a workflow, whether I'm updating a process
, always about selling andmaking sure you understand who
(08:49):
your end audience is and whatdoes your stakeholder care about
.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, Sorry I'm smiling because I have this,
like when I do coaching or otherthings, like I tell people all
the time like, whether yourealize it or not, you're always
selling, right, You're selling,you're selling yourself, you're
selling capabilities, you'reselling what your team can do,
whatever it is right, Even ifyou're not, even if that's not
part of your title or whatyou're paid to do per se, that's
(09:16):
part of, like you know,managing your career is is doing
all that.
So that's, um, I like hearingthat is doing all that.
So that's I like hearing thatCurious.
So I know, I know you.
So you kind of walk throughsome of the transition from
sales to revenue operations orsales operations, Like maybe go
a little deeper on the driversthat led you to that.
(09:41):
I mean, I heard you say, likeyou like structure and process,
and then what, what were, whatwere some of the lessons you
learned in that first transitionfrom sales to sales ops or
sales to rev ops, whichever youwant to call it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Definitely.
So I would say some of thelessons I've learned is it's
very important to have a deepunderstanding of the sales
journey and the sales funnel, sounderstanding how your customer
wants to be sold, what steps dothey take, what are some issues
that can potentially come up asyou're making a sale.
I think it's important fromboth obviously, a sales
(10:18):
perspective as well as themarketing perspective.
Right, because if you don'tunderstand the customer journey,
for example, you don't know, orit's not the best way to adjust
your funnel.
Essentially, right, dependingon if you're segmented your
audiences, if they're top offunnel, middle of funnel, bottom
of funnel, for example, whenyou're nurturing your audience,
when you're sending themspecific material based on if
they attended a specificcampaign, like a webinar or an
(10:40):
event, for example, it'simportant to understand what
part of the journey that they'rein, or an event, for example,
it's important to understandwhat part of the journey that
they're in.
So I would say that wasdefinitely a big lesson and I
think, from a sales perspective,you definitely you're aware of
that, but I think tying the dotstogether, I would say from both
sales and marketing, hasdefinitely been huge.
Other learning lessons aredefinitely the importance of
working with data and howimportant obviously that can be.
(11:02):
So, whether you're analyzing,like sales pipeline progression,
or you're tracking, likemarketing campaign performance,
for example, and you want to beable to obviously show that
pipeline performance back tostakeholders which forms were
effective, which campaignsbrought in X amount of pipeline
based on what your initialinvestment was?
Are they seeing the ROI thatthey want to be seeing?
(11:22):
Tying that back in with sales,when you're sending over the
leads from the campaigns, arethey following up proactively?
So I think the importance ofdata has been a really big piece
in terms of a learning lesson.
I definitely, as a salesperson,was, of course, using that in
my outreach right, like, forexample, like, if I'm doing like
a QBR, how often is my clientlogging into their account?
(11:46):
What is their adoption rate?
Look like, how many licenses dothey have?
Right?
That's a way I was using thatdata From a marketing
perspective.
I'm using the data on the backend, the operational end right.
I'm analyzing, like I said, thecampaign performance.
I'm looking to see how manypeople are actually following up
with their clients on time.
Which workflows are not working, but how many people are
actually following up with theirclients on time.
Which workflows are not working, but how many people are not
(12:07):
going through this workfloweffectively.
So I think it's a combinationof both again understanding what
your end goal is how can youbetter utilize that data and
again really connecting the dots.
So I think that was a reallybig one.
And then the last one I wouldsay is just again, the
importance of relationshipbuilding on both sides, whether
that's from a sales perspectiveyou're building a relationship
(12:28):
with your customers or from amarketing side you're building a
relationship with your internalstakeholders.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, there's a thread there that was
interesting to me.
So this idea of data andconsistency, I mean, I think a
lot of people who are listeningto this will say, well, like
that's, one of the biggestproblems I have with the sales
team is that they don't keeptheir data up to date, right?
So do you feel, like when youwere in sales, that you were
(12:55):
kind of at the kind of thehigher, better top end of just
doing that as a regular part ofyour process?
Or do you think that youweren't?
And then, as you transitionedto the revenue ops and then the
marketing ops, did you have anew perspective on why it was
important that your ops teamswere asking you to make sure
(13:15):
you're updating youropportunities on a regular basis
and things like that?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say everything that youhit on the dot.
I mean I'm sure that there were, in hindsight, things that I
probably could have done better.
Now that I think about it,because for me my sales career
was, like I said, almost fouryears ago, right, but
holistically thinking about it,I was an account executive, then
I transitioned to an accountmanager.
We used different CRMsthroughout my career.
(13:42):
So I started off using theinternal CRM at my first
organization, then movingforward to using Salesforce, and
that was a really big jump forme because, again, this was like
maybe I would say, six yearsago when I first started using
Salesforce and I thinkSalesforce in general has
obviously developed as well, somuch in the last five, 10 years.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
In some ways yes, In some ways no, In some ways.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, yeah, I know that's a different conversation,
but I think, coming from aperspective of you're managing
your deals, you're managing yourpipeline on an internal basis
something that's built in-houseto then moving over to something
that's you know quote unquotevery robust, was also very.
It was a little bit daunting,right as a salesperson, which I
think is fair to say.
(14:23):
I definitely did my best.
I'm sure I could have donebetter, but one of the things
that really helped me, I think,manage my pipeline was just
continuous and regularone-on-ones with my manager,
where I always was cognizantabout bringing my opportunities
to the table.
What was holding them back, whowas I working with, what were
(14:44):
some assets that I needed, wherethey were in the funnel, things
like that.
So that really started myjourney of understanding how
important it is to have accuratedata when you're presenting
numbers, obviously back toanybody right, and also just
understanding your own book ofbusiness and then connecting
that back.
I think, here again with salesprocesses.
Yes, I think in everyorganization it's fair to say
(15:06):
that things could definitely bedone better, but I think that's
also where it's helpful from anops perspective, to have empathy
for who you're working withRight and just continue to
remind them like, hey, this iswhy this is important.
You connect with the salespersonthat you're working with.
I tend to message everybodythat I work with.
I'm not scared.
So they all know my name, theyknow who they're getting
(15:29):
notifications from, they knowwho they're getting slacks from.
And then, at the same time, I'malso trying to be cognizant
about working with obviouslydifferent stakeholders, right?
So who the managers are on thesales teams, for example, I work
very cross-functionally withthe sales team, their managers,
our sales operations team herethey're fantastic.
I work with a marketing team,obviously, and within marketing.
(15:50):
So what I tend to do is sort ofspread myself through everyone
that I'm working withproactively, explain and make
sure if they're not, if it's notdone properly, here's what
needs to be done and here's why.
So I think it's a combinationof it's not just hey, you need
to update the information on thedashboard or the report or the
deal for the sake of doing it.
Here's why it's important.
(16:11):
And then ultimately, againconnecting that back with the
metrics that you're presentingback to stakeholders.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Um, for pipeline, for example yeah, no, I think this
idea of understanding what it'slike to walk in those shoes is
one that's really valuable and Itell people regularly that when
I had a short stint as a salesrole and it still is something
that when I get into aconversation with salespeople
(16:39):
about hey, we want your teams todo this thing in Salesforce or
whatever CRM you're using, andhere's why I'm also very aware
of the impact that may have onthe time they have available to
do what they're paid to do,which is sell right in closed
business.
(17:06):
Part of that is recognizing that, yes, you may see a bigger
picture value in opportunitiesbeing updated as quickly as
possible and knowing about that,but if you don't understand
what it's like to be on thosefront lines talking with
customers or prospects andstruggling through that, it's
easy to get lost in the perfectin quotes, perfect world
scenario of them doing that.
So it's something I reallyappreciate.
(17:28):
Just real curious, because Ithink even I am not sure of a
distinction when accountexecutive, account manager.
I think I know what thedifference is, but what was the
difference in those two roles?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, so account executive is you're a hunter, so
you're essentially findingbrand new business on your own.
When I was an account executiveand I think it depends on the
organization I was basically myown BDR.
So slash SDR, slash ADR.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Full life cycle seller Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, full life cycle , exactly.
So I was prospecting, I wasdoing demos, I was obviously
prepping for my calls From there.
I was also managing the dealfrom, obviously, initial
prospect to fruition and then Iwas also making sure I actually
had the opportunity up until ayear.
So once the deal hit a year,then it moved over to the
(18:16):
account managers at the time.
So that's essentially what Idid for about three years or so.
I was obviously I told you Iworked at Indeed, so I tend to I
was essentially doing allindustries.
It was essentially a smallbusiness to mid-market and it
was really cool because, again,it was my first real sales role
(18:37):
out of college.
So while it was daunting, itwas scary, it was also fantastic
because I just really kind ofgot in it.
I had really great leadership.
Then, from there we actuallymoved into more of an account
management capacity.
So where it sort of I was stilltechnically a hunter, I would
say, but I was almost huntingwithin my own book of business.
(18:57):
So I was given a book ofbusiness and within that my job
was cool.
You have these 200 companies,you have your quota.
That's set within a quarter andobviously that would increase
quarter over quarter by like 10to 15%.
So your job is find the currentspenders.
Of course, keep them spendingAlso find retention.
(19:19):
Retention, exactly.
So you have retention, you haveexpansion revenue as well and
then you have upsell revenue.
So those are my three sort ofcategories when I was there in
account management.
Then from there I switchedactually back to an account
executive role.
I wanted to experience thatagain, so I did FinTech for
about a year and that's actuallywhere I got my first experience
(19:40):
of working with an SDR,understanding what that was like
.
I'd never worked with an SDRbefore, so that was like I'd
never worked with an SDR before.
So that was also really coolbecause it was obviously a
partnership and justunderstanding already cool.
How often are you supposed tomeet with your SDR?
What does the fintech marketlook like?
That was also reallyinteresting because I think as a
salesperson sometimes you think, hey, I can handle every
(20:01):
industry that there is.
But obviously, as tech hasevolved throughout the years,
you realize what you're good atand maybe what you're not good
at.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Well, it's interesting.
So I think, just as I'mlistening through this, like I
don't think we've had manyguests who have talked about
whether they had the experienceor not of having a quota right
and like you describing like itwas very, probably very clear,
(20:31):
like if you either made yourgoal or you didn't right, it
didn't really matter why.
Um, and then the other part,and this was like I don't think
people who have not done coldoutreach know how hard that is.
It is really really hard to doand maintain a positive attitude
because you get rejection allthe time 90 95 of the time,
right, I mean, yeah, so it's, uh, it is, it is.
(20:52):
It is not for the faint of heart.
You know, some people love it,right, and I I was not one of
those people.
I learned to appreciate, kindof like how I learned I
appreciate people who play golfall the time.
I'm not very good, I'm not thatinterested in it I appreciate
how good people who are, uh, whoare good and consistent at it,
uh, it's kind of the same thingwith sales.
(21:12):
So, uh, thanks for walkingthrough that, because I think
that this is a really goodexample of like just the way you
talk about it is probably notwhat most of our listeners who
are have always been inmarketing or marketing ops have
talked about.
That part of the go to marketfunction, right, it's like.
If you don't really understandthat, then it's really hard to
(21:34):
appreciate what it's like.
So, thanks for doing that.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, I think just to connect the dots there also.
It's.
It's also helpful, I think,from a marketing perspective, to
make sure that you're gettingfeedback back from sales, right.
So they're obviously the onesthat are on the front lines
doing the cold calls, right.
But if you don't have thatactive communication, I think
with your sales team and you'retrying to understand, you won't
(21:59):
actually understand, right,which forms are not effective,
which campaigns are noteffective, which forums are not
effective?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
which campaigns are not effective?
Which events are not effective?
Lead scoring is broken or itneeds to be tweaked Maybe not
even broken, but it needs to betweaked.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It needs to be updated Exactly.
So what I tend to do also isthat we have Slack channels,
actually built here at OffSec,so through those I tend to
communicate with our BDR teamquite a bit.
They handle all of our livechats.
They handle all of our livechats.
They handle all of our likelead score mqls, for example,
that come in.
So what we try to do is beproactive about making sure that
(22:30):
they're following up with them,but then also just getting some
feedback on, like how theyperformed.
Um, who's handling the lead?
For example, if there's anysort of questions that they have
, what tools can they use intheir outreach?
I tend to try to do the samething with our sales team as
well.
So if I'm paying them, forexample, on like a lead that
they need to follow up on andthey're like, hey, this, you
know, this wasn't the qualitylead, et cetera, I do try to
(22:51):
push back and just understand,like what happened, and I know I
could be doing a better jobthere or do it more proactively.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
But something I've't agree more.
I mean, I think, buildingrelationship with sales teams,
whether it's BDRs or salesleaders or sales people like who
are.
You know they have a book,business or a quota.
It's really beneficial ingeneral to go do that, because I
(23:27):
think it would help some of thecrap that I see on B2B websites
in terms of the copy, becauseit usually is.
There's so much meaninglessdrivel and if you talk to
salespeople they don't use thatsame.
A lot of times they don't usethat same language right, they
use language that the customersactually get.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, exactly, and I think the biggest goal and I
see, I, I'm, I see the samething honestly that, especially
because it as obviously withinmarketing I'm sure you see this
as well.
You get hit up with so manyvendors all the time and then
you go on their websites andyou're like, okay, well, what do
you guys do?
And so much of it is just likehuge head scratcher right.
(24:06):
Yeah, I'm like, what are youguys saying?
Let's just simplify this, let'snot, maybe use ChatGPT for all
of our copy.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't even think it's ChatGPT.
I think this is not a newproblem.
This is a problem that's beenaround for 10, 15, 20 years.
Everyone wants to be seen asthought leaders.
I just am like I want stuffthat is very clear.
If you can't tell people whatyou do really clearly and
(24:33):
succinctly, you're going tostruggle getting attention.
And, by the way, if you're notmatching the way that people are
talking about, whatever spaceyou're in, that they're going to
be used for search, right,you're also not going to be
found through search engines andnow things like chat, gpt.
So, anyway, I could go on forthat for a while.
(24:54):
On that, um, but let's.
So I want to go back to so youwere, you transitioned to rev
ops in 21 ish time frame andthen you moved to marketing ops
from that which, by the way, Idon't think is all that common.
Like I think more people gofrom marketing ops to rev ops,
where rev ops is like acrossgood market functions.
(25:14):
But so I'm curious like, walkme through, like what was, what
was the driver behind that?
And then kind of the same thingas before.
Right, what were some of theeither?
Both lessons you learned alongthe way as you moved into the
marketing domain, or what thingsdid you, what skills did you
(25:35):
transfer it over that werehelpful from your previous roles
?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, definitely, let's see.
So I think, like I mentionedhigh level, we already talked
about structure.
I think I've always beencurious on how leads are
generated, right.
How do they get assigned tosales?
If I go back to my experienceat ZopDoc, for example, we used
to our marketing team would sendus notifications through like
NPS surveys, for example rightCool, you had your recent lead,
(26:00):
submit this NPS survey.
Here's what they want to focuson, here's what they're looking
to get out of it.
Why don't you make that reach?
So I always found that wasreally interesting because, a
obviously it gave me to know whoto reach out to.
B it gave me content toreference in my outreach, and
these were already existingclients that I was working with
right, so it was a done deal.
I'm like duh, I was going toobviously reach out.
(26:21):
So I think, connecting it back,it's always been wanting to
better understand the mechanicsbehind like sales processes how
leads are being generated, howare they being sent to sales and
why.
I think that's always beensomething I was curious about.
In my experience with Delos,like I mentioned, I started
working very heavily with ourmarketing team, so it was a
really great way to kind of getmy feet wet on understanding
(26:43):
different channels right.
So it was a really great way tokind of get my feet wet on
understanding different channelsRight.
I had no idea what paid searchwas, what paid social was, what
channels are or what, sorry whatmediums are utilized in those
channels Right, what's effective, what's not effective.
So really kind of getting myhands dirty, sending them those
metrics, being involved instarting to build reports,
qualifying leads, building outdashboards, for example.
(27:05):
I was really hands-on workingwith them, you know, day in and
day out, and that really kind ofgot me excited as well about
just marketing in general.
And then, before I know it, myrole actually, I would say
basically became marketingoperations.
Even in that capacity, my titlewas still revenue operations,
but I was handling HubSpotfull-time.
I was working very heavily withthem while also doing my own
(27:27):
job.
So it was a combination of both, I would say.
Also in that timeframe I workedagain with sales enablement as
well help them, like with anycoaching that they needed, for
example, whether it came tousing HubSpot, or maybe like if
they needed anything like youknow client calls or closing
deals or whatever it may be.
So I was starting to getinvolved with enablement there
(27:47):
as well, and then I think I justkind of naturally gravitated
towards marketing operations.
So it just made sense totransition into the role fully
and I was grateful enough tofind OutSec as an organization.
And really, I would say, inthis role, what I've been able
to really improve on andcontinue to work towards in my
(28:07):
career within operations isdefinitely process improvement,
data management and then, like Isaid, sales enablement.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Gotcha.
So the enablement piece.
So you did sales enablement,but it sounds like you're doing
enablement with marketing teamsas well.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
A little bit.
Yeah, I'm trying to get my feetwet there.
So, for example, if we have anylike gone cadence, for example,
that like I can help, you know,give a little feedback on, I do
try.
Or, for example, if there's anysort of like emails, for
example, I can like help workwith a demand gen team to revamp
.
I do try to do that.
Or, more importantly, I wouldsay a bigger example would be
(28:41):
when we get like a lead scoreNQL that's sent over to our ADR
team, for example, and they wantto know exactly what to
leverage in terms of theiroutreach, I work with them to
make sure that they know exactlywhat's important on the contact
record in HubSpot, I do thesame thing with our sales team
as they get a lead assigned tothem as well.
So, for example, when I startedhere last year, a few of the
(29:05):
things that we did was updateour forms.
So, for example, making surethat not only that the fields
that were already there, butalso just shortening the forms a
little bit and adding inadditional key fields, for
example, that might help thesales team understand how big of
an opportunity that they have.
So now that was entered intothe forms, now that's going over
to Salesforce, but already cool.
(29:26):
As a salesperson, how do youknow you have to look at that
Right.
So it would be, for example,like one of the things we did
last year was we created a deckwe presented to our sales team,
like monthly, for example.
Within one of the decks we madesure to include information
that they could reference intheir outreach.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Along with that, I'm also as I'm like so can you give
me an example of what you meanby that?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, like for like what fields, for example, to
leverage when you're makingoutreach and what these fields
mean, for example.
So one of the examples was likehow big of an opportunity, like
we obviously have it labeleddifferently within the form, but
it was like how big is yourteam or how many learners are
interested, because we'reobviously a certification
training company forcybersecurity.
So, that was really cool becausenow in all of our MQL forms
(30:07):
that's a field that's included.
So when I, as a salesperson, amgetting that, I can easily make
sure I look at that and Ileverage that in my outreach.
So I really enjoy that part ofmy role.
I wish it was a little bit moreas well, but if I'm making
outreach, for example, to salesreps, and if they have any
questions on how they shouldmake outreach what does the
source mean?
For example, why is thisrelevant?
(30:28):
I'm making sure I'm assistingthem as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So are you doing that kind of in an ad hoc way?
I mean, you talked about doinga presentation with the sales
team, but are you doingsomething that's as new people
come on board, right, there'sour existing training and
enablement content that they cango through to start with so
that you sort of acceleratetheir onboarding process.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I would say right now I'm doingit more ad hoc with existing
team members.
So if they have any sort ofoutreach questions that they
need to know, onboarding isobviously a little bit different
Like their managers will goahead and show them like hey,
these are like the ropes, forexample, here's what you need to
do, etc.
I'll make sure, like I introducemyself and then, as a lead, it
gets sent over, for example, toour sales reps.
(31:13):
I might ping them and just belike hey, you recently got
assigned this.
Were you able to see theworkflow notification?
Do you have any questions thatI can answer?
And from there the conversationwill naturally flow if they
have anything that I can helpwith.
Another example might be, forexample, if we have a recent
campaign that we ran and I'llmake sure from an operational
(31:34):
perspective, those leads areobviously properly assigned to
the reps.
But along with that that, hey,we have the proper nurture
workflow emails that are beingsent over, and then at the same
time, my counterpart and I areworking together and making sure
they have the proper cadence intheir outreach as well.
So I think it's a full cycleprocess.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Got it.
So are you?
What kind of feedback are yougetting from those teams when
you're doing that?
I mean, is it?
I'm just curious because,especially with marketers like I
don't know that there's maybeit's just me have we not done a
great job of providingenablement resources for our
(32:11):
marketing teams who might beusing, say, a marketing
automation platform or the CRMor whatever you know know?
Are you finding people grateful, annoyed, providing feedback
that you can go and improvestuff?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
like a little bit of all of those like I would say a
little bit of all of that yeah Ithink it's fair to say that
when you uh and I'm sure I'mguilty of this as well maybe I
over slack a little bit too much, or I've been slack too much,
like I think everybody has theirmoments where there's like
already like calm, slack alittle bit too much, or I've
been Slack too much, like Ithink everybody has their
moments where there's like, areyou like calm down a little bit?
But I do also think it'simportant to make sure that you
are at least you know you'repinging people, or if people
(32:45):
have questions, they'recomfortable reaching out to you,
for example, like, hey, why isthis lead getting assigned to me
?
How do I make outreach?
What does this source mean?
For example and I've been ableto also provide feedback on if
(33:06):
any forums need updates, forexample, where we should be
putting certain forums, forexample, based on where they are
in the funnel.
I'm a big proponent of workingcollaboratively with our team,
so I definitely don't want totake the credit there at all.
It's all about collaboration.
We tend to meet on like aweekly basis, for example, on
what's working, what's notworking, what are some key
(33:27):
projects that are coming up,what campaigns are going to be
happening.
Like I mentioned, what's goingto be going over to sales, do
they have the proper cadence tofollow up on?
And then also just trying tomake sure we're getting
proactive feedback, if we can,from the sales managers.
The other things I'm also doingis making sure that there's
proper tasks that are going overto the sales team.
So, for example, for some ofour high focus NQL forms, for
(33:49):
example, I'll make sure cool youhave the workflow that's
already notifying you If youdon't follow up within a day or
two, maybe there's a task thatalso goes out to you as a
reminder that this lead needs tobe followed up on.
So I try to be cognizant of,obviously, their time, giving
their gap because we have aglobal workforce, and then also,
just like a quick hey, just canyou go ahead and just make sure
you reach out.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Sorry, when you say you're um, you have that week.
I think you said a weeklyconnection with is that with
your counterpart in like a salesops role, or with the sales
managers or all the marketingleaders?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
yeah, that's a good question.
So I tend to have a weeklytouch base with our marketing
team, um, so usually I'll dolike a one-on-one with my
manager and then we'll also dolike a weekly touch base with
our team itself.
I also have a touch base,actually, with our sales
operations team.
So I tend to be proactive whereI'm like let me just make sure
I'm setting up these meetings inadvance, even if we don't have
anything to cover.
We'll cancel it if we don'tneed to.
(34:43):
But I find that it's a reallygreat way to have more of that
one-on-one conversation withyour counterparts that you're
actively working with.
With the sales managers, I tendto have a more open
relationship, so if I need toSlack them for example, ask any
questions, set up a meeting I'lldo that as well.
I know with my counterpart,they tend to touch base with the
sales managers more proactivelyas well.
(35:04):
So I think it's a combinationof both meetings, as well as
having open communicationsthrough Slack channels in case
you need anything.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So I'm curious do you think your experience having
been in sales makes it easierfor you to take what I'm sure
you get criticism right as apart of this feedback loop?
Right, but it's open and honest, as long as it's not like
personal attack, which is notokay.
But if it's feedback, whetheryou agree with it or not, like
how do you do you think thatexperience is having been in
(35:34):
sales and dealing with therejection and all the stuff that
goes with it has helped you inlike taking that and not like
taking it personally, I guess isthe best way to yeah,
definitely, absolutely, becauseI think you develop a very um, I
don't want to, I don't know ifI, if I want to use the word
hard exterior, uh, but it'salmost like another way of
(35:54):
saying that, right like whenyou're the salesperson you're.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
You know you're going to be getting someone to shut
the phone on you.
They might use some you knownot the best language.
They might call you names.
Whatever it might be, theycould or could not be the right
person to connect with.
I mean, I'm guilty of thismyself.
I will get sales calls Now.
Thank God you know whensomeone's a sit-AN so you can
just send them directly to yourvoicemail.
(36:18):
But you know, I think it'scandid to say it's okay to say
like you know, you built a toughexterior as a salesperson and
I've definitely brought thatexperience over with me to
operations as well, becauseyou're going to be.
There are things that I do welland then there's also things
that I can improve on as well.
Right, that could be whetherI'm building a better process.
Maybe I sent over the wrongleads, maybe I could have
(36:40):
communicated something moreeffectively.
That's something that I think Ihave definitely developed
throughout my career as well,and it's a big part of
operations.
When you have your data, forexample, or whatever you're
trying to communicate.
How to effectively communicatethat.
That's something I'mcontinuously trying to improve
on.
But if there are times, forexample, where maybe I'm over
explaining something, or maybeI'm explaining a technical
(37:02):
scenario to someone who needs itin more layman's terms, so,
there are definitely times whereI've also gotten feedback that
I can improve on something, andthat's completely fine and
that's a part of life.
So I would say, to answer yourquestion absolutely, I think
being a salesperson has given methat confidence to know what's
right and what's not and where Ican continue to improve and not
(37:22):
take anything personally,because at the end of the day,
we're all working towards thesame goal, we're all
professionals, right, and ifsomeone's giving you feedback,
take the feedback, see where wecan improve and do better, and
that's all we can say.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, it's interesting.
No, it's interesting.
And there's something thathappened recently in my
day-to-day where someone I wastalking to had some really
direct not like meant to be rudeor intimidating or anything
like that, but it was verydirect and we had a subsequent
(37:56):
conversation and I think thatperson's experience with other
people in the same kind ofscenario was they get defensive
and I don't know where it isalong the way, whether it's
being in sales, you know, justhaving more war wounds in
general, right.
But to me, again, I go back tolike, as long as you're not
(38:21):
taking, you know, takingpersonal shots at me or my
character, then I welcome andencourage all that feedback,
right, because I think it'svaluable.
It's valuable in different ways, right.
One is we all have blind spotsand so it's good to like know
where, like if you're doingsomething, but the I think the
more valuable one for anorganization is, the more you
can get that feedback loop goingin all directions, is it it?
It brings to light on thingsthat are broken, that you may
(38:45):
not have realized or that aredifficult for this other team,
and you didn't realize that you,what you were asking for them
to do, what it actually theactual implications was on their
day-to-day work.
Or if you're trying to figureout a solution, right, what's
like if you've got, you know,one person dominating the
conversation that may have well,be well-intentioned and be
smart, that still may not be thebest idea, right?
(39:07):
So I think surfacing more ideasjust leads to better outcomes
in general.
So what I do like I'm verymaybe proactive is not the right
word, but I'm very, very umexplicit.
When I work with teams,especially new teams, any of the
key stakeholders I work withthat might have feedback.
(39:27):
I I one of the things I set theexpectation with is I say I
want your feedback.
Right, if you've got an issue,you've got got a problem, come
to me, tell me what it is.
That's okay.
If it's a suggestion kind ofthing, I always tell them.
I may or may not do anythingabout it, but I want you to tell
me, because what I want to knowis, if you tell me and then
this other person tells mesomething similar and another
(39:49):
person tells me somethingsimilar, all of a sudden I'm
seeing a pattern and actually Ineed to pay attention to this
and it's going to get.
I will probably then try to dosome act on it if I can and if I
were to.
You know, give people theHeisman and not solicit that
feedback or not make it easy forthem to do it and feel
comfortable.
We'd all miss out.
So do you do?
I mean, do you do anything likethat?
(40:10):
Are you like, like, are you?
actively saying things like thatto them.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Definitely.
I always try to always end mycalls with what can I do better?
Where can I help you?
Is there anything I can takeoff your plate?
I think that's one of thethings that everybody should be
doing right, regardless ofwhatever career field that they
end, because at the end of theday, we're all working together.
We're all a team, and I thinkone of the things that sales has
(40:40):
really taught me is the valueof coachability and how
important that is in any part ofyour career.
Right, because that's yourpoint.
You're always going to begetting feedback.
It's good to be welcome tofeedback, and not just getting
the feedback, but also how youhandle it and how you take it
and then how you move forward.
Right, moving forward in strideis huge, whether that's in your
career or whether that's inlife.
So I would say, definitely akey point I've taken away from
(41:00):
my sales career that I've triedto add into operations is the
ability to always be coachable,continue to learn, continue to
train and, hopefully, you dobetter.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
So I'm curious.
So part of why I think I didn'tstay in sales beyond what I did
earlier in my career probablythe biggest reasons I just
wasn't made out to be that,especially at that point in my
career.
But I also, the manager Iworked for, was not a good.
He was not a coach, right, hewas more of a slave driver type,
right.
Oh no, didn't really provide alot of guidance, especially for
(41:33):
someone who, to be true, I had alow opinion of sales people and
I was like, oh, this will beeasy, um, but also like, didn't
get it, so do you had good salesmanagers or managers in general
that were providing feedback?
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I would say so, yeah, I was actually actionable
feedback definitely yeah.
So I mean, I've had some reallygreat managers at softdoc, at
indeed Indeed.
Yeah, I definitely did, I wouldsay, and even honestly, even my
managers in operations havebeen fantastic as well.
I've been trying.
My goal is to take away fromevery single manager a part of
their.
(42:08):
I guess everyone has differentpersonality working styles right
but your job is how malleableyou can be while working
underneath them, right?
So obviously, not every singleperson is going to get along,
and I think that's fine as well.
But to bring something to thetable I think it's important to
do that as well when you'rehaving one on ones.
For example, my job, always, mygoal, has always been to be
(42:28):
proactive, right.
What is my week looking like?
What are some projects I'mlooking to tackle, whether
that's in an operations capacity, then in a sales capacity.
Here's my top four clients, forexample, that I'm working with.
Here's what's holding them back.
Here's we're going to moveforward to help me close my
quota.
So I would say it's a two wayrelationship.
When you're working with yourmanager, obviously there's going
to be some people that are justidiots, and that's fine too,
(42:50):
and I'm not taking that away.
But I think, if you can, alwaysMichael, goal let's, let's
always be proactive, right.
So if you're having aone-on-one, try to always bring
something to the table insteadof just like asking them what
should I do.
Bring the ideas to the table ofhow you think you can maybe
handle a situation right.
Then get their feedback.
So, from a sales perspective,one of the things I really
(43:11):
enjoyed was I would.
My manager recommended to mehey, why don't we both listen to
a call that you did this week?
Let's analyze the call and seewhat worked well and what didn't
work well.
And that was really helpful,especially during COVID, because
we were virtual.
So it was a really great way toobviously continue to build
that relationship but also findout, as I'm listening back to
the call, where can I improve.
(43:33):
And it's really difficult tohear yourself back in a
voiceover and and you're notvery cool, like why did I do
this?
Why did I say that?
But it was a really greatlearning opportunity from me At
OffSec.
I've had the again theprivilege of having some really
great managers as well whoreally guided me within this
role, because switching overfrom revenue to marketing
operations again, like I said,it's a learning curve as well.
(43:54):
Right, I was doing marketing, Iwould say, in Delos as well,
but really being ingrained inthis role has taught me so much
and one of the things I thinkthat has been really helpful is
having proper guidance.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
So, whether you're being proactive about setting
those one on ones, bringingprojects to the table, finding
gaps, finding opportunities,getting managerial feedback,
getting good direction all ofthose things, I think, play a
factor and they tie in togetherit's interesting I don't know if
you did when you started sayingthat you need to be malleable,
I was probably kind of doingthis like kind of weird nod in
(44:26):
my head because, um, this isgoing to be an example where I'm
not like, I'm not notquestioning, but like I think
there's nuance to my positionthat when I've, when I've been a
manager, as a people where I'vecoached people who are
especially new, first timepeople, managers one of the
things I tell them as part ofyour job is, uh well, you
shouldn't expect people to adaptto your style, right.
(44:46):
Your job is to adapt to theirstyle, right.
So it's really to me it's beenmore of the manager who should
be malleable.
Um, I think you bring up somereally interesting points that
it would be as a manager.
It's always appreciated whenpeople can be I don't know,
malleable is not the right wordCoachable is definitely
something that I look for when Ihire people, but also, just I
(45:09):
like the proactiveness and noteverybody's going to be able to
do that and that's fine, butanything where you're kind of
like open to feedback and tryingto provide input in a way,
that's um, trying to be helpful,and then you know, I've had
people work for me who are veryproactive about soliciting
(45:31):
feedback, and not everyone was,and it's to the point where it
really stood out and it stillsurprises, surprises me that
people aren't asking for thatmore often.
So, anyway, I'm now likerethinking my, my, my viewpoint
a little bit on this, like whoshould be, who should be more or
less malleable or flexible, oradapt to the scenario between
(45:52):
two different people in a kindof manager direct report
situation.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
So thanks, that's good, of course.
No, I mean, this is reallygreat learning from you as well
and just kind of hearing yourperspective, so thank you for
that.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, interesting.
Well, I think.
I think we are going to have towrap it up here so kind of well
.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
If, if people want to, you know, learn more about what you've
you know, about what you'velearned over the years, or just
connect or whatever, what's thebest way for them to do that?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I would say LinkedIn is thebest, so I'm happy to send you
over my LinkedIn URL afterwards.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
We can drop that in the show notes if you want.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, definitely.
Okay sure I'll send that over.
That would be the best way Itend to any webinars I join, any
sort of sessions I'm a part of,or any certifications I have,
or I'll post it directly on myLinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
So that would be the best way to connect Perfect
Right.
Well, thank you again for doingthis.
It was a lot of fun.
I appreciate these differentperspectives and I don't think a
lot of people who are inmarketing ops have really been
exposed to this kind of level ofdetail of what it's like to be
in sales and then the transition.
So I think this is going to bevaluable for a lot of people.
So thank you, and thank you all, always as always to our
audience, for continuing tosupport us and share our
(47:09):
insights and our guests.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
reach out to Naomi, mike or me,either through LinkedIn or the
marketing ops community Slack,or if you have some other way of
reaching us, you can figure itout.
Please do until next time.
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Thank you so much, bye.
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
those MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying solo once again today.
I am hopeful that we'll getNaomi or Mike or both, back soon
.
Joining me today is KanwalIbrahim, currently Marketing
Operations Manager at OffSec.
Before her role in marketingoperations, she held various
(00:24):
roles in revenue operations orsales operations and analyst
roles in that area as well, butshe started her career in sales,
holding several account managerand executive and senior
account executive roles atmultiple companies.
So we're going to hopefullytalk a little bit about the
lessons she learned and how itapplies to what she's doing now.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So, ken, well, thank you for joining me today she
learned and how it applies towhat she's doing now.
So, ken, well, thank you forjoining me today.
Great, thank you so much.
I'm so grateful to be on,michael.
Honestly, I've been on the MopsAlliance Slack channel for
quite a bit and when Audreyreached out and mentioned about
you, it just seemed like such agreat opportunity and, again,
just very excited to be on thepodcast.
When we initially met, I knowwe definitely had a really great
(01:05):
conversation.
I got to learn about yourbackground and obviously speak
to mine.
So definitely excited to justdiscuss my background today in
sales revenue operations and howthat's really helped shape my
approach to marketing.
I know obviously we're going togo into detail as well, but
again, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Of course, we're always glad to have people with
different perspectives.
So, while we start, so I I didthe like I was going to say 10
second, I'm not even sure it was10 second review of your career
.
Um, while we started, like this, so you've been.
You started your career in kindof a sales, sales oriented
roles where you actually Iassume you had, like you had a
(01:40):
quota and all that kind of stuff.
But how long have you been inoperations roles, whether it's
marketing ops or revenue ops,and then what have you found to
be the biggest challenge withthose roles?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, definitely.
So I transitioned over fromsales into sales operations
slash revenue operations in 2021.
So obviously that was the kindof time of COVID I was in that
part of my journey where I feltlike it was the right time to
transition and use theexperience that I had really
found within sales and reallychallenge myself, take advantage
(02:14):
of what I was looking for,which is more structure.
I was always very curious aboutjust how the stocks are just
made.
I wanted to look more inside,into the strategic operational
role as well, rather than justfocusing on, like an individual
customer interaction, which isalready what I have had
experience in.
I've also always, always had alove for data, for reporting,
(02:36):
for process optimization andobviously we'll go into that in
detail as well.
So that timeframe in 2021, Iliterally looked at my resume, I
looked at my experience and Ithink, like a lot of people, I
really thought to myself is thiswhat I want to keep doing and
how do I want to build on myselfand in my career journey?
So in that timeframe, I satdown, read out my resume and I
(02:57):
was grateful enough to be giventhe opportunity by my last
company, delos.
I moved over and tuned thatrole in 2021.
I started off as an analyst, soI was a senior analyst in sales,
which then became salesoperations, which then
transitioned into revenueoperations.
I was very grateful.
I learned a lot in that role.
I was able to get promotedtwice, so I went from analyst to
(03:20):
associate in revenue operations.
So I did that for about threeyears and then in early 2024, I
actually made the transitionofficially to marketing
operations.
Again, very excited to be inthis role.
I'm at OffSec, obviously.
I've been here for close to ayear.
Definitely a lot of growth, alot of learnings.
I work with some fantasticpeople and time really flies
(03:44):
when you're having fun andyou're always learning.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I'm just curious because I probably have
an idea in my head of what ananalyst in revenue operations,
sales operations, says.
But what were some of thethings you did in that kind of
role?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, definitely so.
In sales operations andmarketing operations there's a
lot of similarities that tie intogether.
So you're working around likequotas, like helping to set
quotas.
You're working around,obviously, generating quotes.
You're working around creatinga lot of proposals.
You're also doing, depending onthe role, obviously, depending
on small companies you're goingto be raising a lot of hats so
(04:18):
you might be involved inenablement, for example.
So I did kind of a lot of thosethings.
Like territory assignments andthings like that too Territory
assignments, just making surelead routing was done properly,
For example it was a muchsmaller sales team, but I still
got the opportunity to be ableto work with sales very hands-on
.
We also helped with just likeprocess mapping.
So again, a lot of it overlaysessentially with marketing
(04:41):
operations, operations,operations, but you're more
obviously on the sales side,right.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So during that role is also where I started using
HubSpot more in detail, I wouldsay I was basically like their
app and I had a consultant thatI was working with in Delos, but
I also started just taking overthe platform holistically
myself, sure, and that'sactually where I started working
with the marketing team quiteactively, I would say so I was
(05:07):
involved in creating forms,landing pages, helping them a
lot with metrics, data reporting, which channels are performing
what wasn't performing, andbeing able to give insights, and
that was a really greatlearning opportunity for me.
It also gave me the ability toalso understand, like are you
cool?
What's working, what's notworking, starting to get
(05:28):
feedback, obviously from sales,relaying that back to marketing,
especially when it came toevent and campaign performance.
So during that role, I wouldsay technically I was revenue
operations, but I was veryhands-on with the marketing team
.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, so kind of a liaison role with them.
Okay, I'm so curious.
So please don't be offended,but my experience with most
salespeople is it's interestingthat you said that you were
looking for structure.
I don't know most salespeople Iknow.
I mean to some degree, yes, Imean I think the best ones are
pretty good about it, keep beingorganized and all that kind of
stuff.
(06:01):
But, um, so I'm just curious,like what do you think?
Let me back up and we'll getinto more of this.
I think about, like the thingsthat overlap between revenue ops
or sales ops and marketing opsand what doesn't.
But curious about from thebeginning, like from a sales
standpoint, like when you weredoing account account executive
(06:22):
kind of roles are there anyskills, things that you learned
from there that you think havehelped you, that you did carry
forward to that as well?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, absolutely, you're saying skills from my
sales experience that helped mewith marketing operations.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Or your revenue operations.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
No, definitely.
So I think, just with structure.
I mean, I've always had adesire for more structure, right
?
I think, depending on thecompany you're in, the role that
you're doing and how good of asalesperson you are, you can
definitely, as long as you'remanaging your book of business
well and you have a very clearidea of how you want to handle
the day, you're going to be agreat sales rep.
You're going to be medium, notthat great.
I think it kind of ties in alltogether with your overall work
(07:05):
ethic as well, Connecting thatwith revenue operations and then
obviously market and operationsin general.
I would say one of the things Ireally enjoyed about this role
within a general is the abilityto get a better understanding of
processes and systems, andthat's something that I find
very interesting aboutoperations understanding what's
happening behind the scenes.
(07:25):
So I would say structure in adifferent capacity, because
you're always thinking aboutwhat if, then almost if.
That makes sense, I think, froma sales perspective, which one
thing I've definitely taken awayis that you're sort of focused,
you're building relationships,you're doing your outreach,
you're obviously doing yourfollow-ups.
You sort of know exactly whatyour day-to-day looks like With
operations.
It's a different kind ofstructure.
(07:45):
You're focusing on how salesfunnels works right.
You're working towards leadgeneration campaign management.
You're definitely you're beinga lot more strategic, and that's
the side of operations that Ireally enjoy, I would say, in
terms of my sales experience,and I think why it's really
helpful in operations in generalis it's given me the ability to
really connect with audienceright.
(08:07):
So you have your end client insales.
Those are obviously the teamsthat you work with.
So in sales, you have whoeveryour end customer is right.
When I was at SoftDoc, our endcustomer were providers right.
When I was at Indeed, my endcustomers were HR, for example.
Right At OffSec, it's going tobe your different titles, like
your CTOs, your CISOs, forexample.
(08:28):
So obviously, essentially,you're always going to be able
to build a relationship withwhoever your audience is.
Connecting that back withoperations, my audience is now
internal instead of external, sothat's a really big difference.
But I'm still kind of likeselling right.
Whether I'm creating a workflow, whether I'm updating a process
, always about selling andmaking sure you understand who
(08:49):
your end audience is and whatdoes your stakeholder care about
.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, Sorry I'm smiling because I have this,
like when I do coaching or otherthings, like I tell people all
the time like, whether yourealize it or not, you're always
selling, right, You're selling,you're selling yourself, you're
selling capabilities, you'reselling what your team can do,
whatever it is right, Even ifyou're not, even if that's not
part of your title or whatyou're paid to do per se, that's
(09:16):
part of, like you know,managing your career is is doing
all that.
So that's, um, I like hearingthat is doing all that.
So that's I like hearing thatCurious.
So I know, I know you.
So you kind of walk throughsome of the transition from
sales to revenue operations orsales operations, Like maybe go
a little deeper on the driversthat led you to that.
(09:41):
I mean, I heard you say, likeyou like structure and process,
and then what, what were, whatwere some of the lessons you
learned in that first transitionfrom sales to sales ops or
sales to rev ops, whichever youwant to call it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Definitely.
So I would say some of thelessons I've learned is it's
very important to have a deepunderstanding of the sales
journey and the sales funnel, sounderstanding how your customer
wants to be sold, what steps dothey take, what are some issues
that can potentially come up asyou're making a sale.
I think it's important fromboth obviously, a sales
(10:18):
perspective as well as themarketing perspective.
Right, because if you don'tunderstand the customer journey,
for example, you don't know, orit's not the best way to adjust
your funnel.
Essentially, right, dependingon if you're segmented your
audiences, if they're top offunnel, middle of funnel, bottom
of funnel, for example, whenyou're nurturing your audience,
when you're sending themspecific material based on if
they attended a specificcampaign, like a webinar or an
(10:40):
event, for example, it'simportant to understand what
part of the journey that they'rein, or an event, for example,
it's important to understandwhat part of the journey that
they're in.
So I would say that wasdefinitely a big lesson and I
think, from a sales perspective,you definitely you're aware of
that, but I think tying the dotstogether, I would say from both
sales and marketing, hasdefinitely been huge.
Other learning lessons aredefinitely the importance of
working with data and howimportant obviously that can be.
(11:02):
So, whether you're analyzing,like sales pipeline progression,
or you're tracking, likemarketing campaign performance,
for example, and you want to beable to obviously show that
pipeline performance back tostakeholders which forms were
effective, which campaignsbrought in X amount of pipeline
based on what your initialinvestment was?
Are they seeing the ROI thatthey want to be seeing?
(11:22):
Tying that back in with sales,when you're sending over the
leads from the campaigns, arethey following up proactively?
So I think the importance ofdata has been a really big piece
in terms of a learning lesson.
I definitely, as a salesperson,was, of course, using that in
my outreach right, like, forexample, like, if I'm doing like
a QBR, how often is my clientlogging into their account?
(11:46):
What is their adoption rate?
Look like, how many licenses dothey have?
Right?
That's a way I was using thatdata From a marketing
perspective.
I'm using the data on the backend, the operational end right.
I'm analyzing, like I said, thecampaign performance.
I'm looking to see how manypeople are actually following up
with their clients on time.
Which workflows are not working, but how many people are
actually following up with theirclients on time.
Which workflows are not working, but how many people are not
(12:07):
going through this workfloweffectively.
So I think it's a combinationof both again understanding what
your end goal is how can youbetter utilize that data and
again really connecting the dots.
So I think that was a reallybig one.
And then the last one I wouldsay is just again, the
importance of relationshipbuilding on both sides, whether
that's from a sales perspectiveyou're building a relationship
(12:28):
with your customers or from amarketing side you're building a
relationship with your internalstakeholders.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, there's a thread there that was
interesting to me.
So this idea of data andconsistency, I mean, I think a
lot of people who are listeningto this will say, well, like
that's, one of the biggestproblems I have with the sales
team is that they don't keeptheir data up to date, right?
So do you feel, like when youwere in sales, that you were
(12:55):
kind of at the kind of thehigher, better top end of just
doing that as a regular part ofyour process?
Or do you think that youweren't?
And then, as you transitionedto the revenue ops and then the
marketing ops, did you have anew perspective on why it was
important that your ops teamswere asking you to make sure
(13:15):
you're updating youropportunities on a regular basis
and things like that?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say everything that youhit on the dot.
I mean I'm sure that there were, in hindsight, things that I
probably could have done better.
Now that I think about it,because for me my sales career
was, like I said, almost fouryears ago, right, but
holistically thinking about it,I was an account executive, then
I transitioned to an accountmanager.
We used different CRMsthroughout my career.
(13:42):
So I started off using theinternal CRM at my first
organization, then movingforward to using Salesforce, and
that was a really big jump forme because, again, this was like
maybe I would say, six yearsago when I first started using
Salesforce and I thinkSalesforce in general has
obviously developed as well, somuch in the last five, 10 years.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
In some ways yes, In some ways no, In some ways.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, yeah, I know that's a different conversation,
but I think, coming from aperspective of you're managing
your deals, you're managing yourpipeline on an internal basis
something that's built in-houseto then moving over to something
that's you know quote unquotevery robust, was also very.
It was a little bit daunting,right as a salesperson, which I
think is fair to say.
(14:23):
I definitely did my best.
I'm sure I could have donebetter, but one of the things
that really helped me, I think,manage my pipeline was just
continuous and regularone-on-ones with my manager,
where I always was cognizantabout bringing my opportunities
to the table.
What was holding them back, whowas I working with, what were
(14:44):
some assets that I needed, wherethey were in the funnel, things
like that.
So that really started myjourney of understanding how
important it is to have accuratedata when you're presenting
numbers, obviously back toanybody right, and also just
understanding your own book ofbusiness and then connecting
that back.
I think, here again with salesprocesses.
Yes, I think in everyorganization it's fair to say
(15:06):
that things could definitely bedone better, but I think that's
also where it's helpful from anops perspective, to have empathy
for who you're working withRight and just continue to
remind them like, hey, this iswhy this is important.
You connect with the salespersonthat you're working with.
I tend to message everybodythat I work with.
I'm not scared.
So they all know my name, theyknow who they're getting
(15:29):
notifications from, they knowwho they're getting slacks from.
And then, at the same time, I'malso trying to be cognizant
about working with obviouslydifferent stakeholders, right?
So who the managers are on thesales teams, for example, I work
very cross-functionally withthe sales team, their managers,
our sales operations team herethey're fantastic.
I work with a marketing team,obviously, and within marketing.
(15:50):
So what I tend to do is sort ofspread myself through everyone
that I'm working withproactively, explain and make
sure if they're not, if it's notdone properly, here's what
needs to be done and here's why.
So I think it's a combinationof it's not just hey, you need
to update the information on thedashboard or the report or the
deal for the sake of doing it.
Here's why it's important.
(16:11):
And then ultimately, againconnecting that back with the
metrics that you're presentingback to stakeholders.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Um, for pipeline, for example yeah, no, I think this
idea of understanding what it'slike to walk in those shoes is
one that's really valuable and Itell people regularly that when
I had a short stint as a salesrole and it still is something
that when I get into aconversation with salespeople
(16:39):
about hey, we want your teams todo this thing in Salesforce or
whatever CRM you're using, andhere's why I'm also very aware
of the impact that may have onthe time they have available to
do what they're paid to do,which is sell right in closed
business.
(17:06):
Part of that is recognizing that, yes, you may see a bigger
picture value in opportunitiesbeing updated as quickly as
possible and knowing about that,but if you don't understand
what it's like to be on thosefront lines talking with
customers or prospects andstruggling through that, it's
easy to get lost in the perfectin quotes, perfect world
scenario of them doing that.
So it's something I reallyappreciate.
(17:28):
Just real curious, because Ithink even I am not sure of a
distinction when accountexecutive, account manager.
I think I know what thedifference is, but what was the
difference in those two roles?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, so account executive is you're a hunter, so
you're essentially findingbrand new business on your own.
When I was an account executiveand I think it depends on the
organization I was basically myown BDR.
So slash SDR, slash ADR.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Full life cycle seller Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, full life cycle , exactly.
So I was prospecting, I wasdoing demos, I was obviously
prepping for my calls From there.
I was also managing the dealfrom, obviously, initial
prospect to fruition and then Iwas also making sure I actually
had the opportunity up until ayear.
So once the deal hit a year,then it moved over to the
(18:16):
account managers at the time.
So that's essentially what Idid for about three years or so.
I was obviously I told you Iworked at Indeed, so I tend to I
was essentially doing allindustries.
It was essentially a smallbusiness to mid-market and it
was really cool because, again,it was my first real sales role
(18:37):
out of college.
So while it was daunting, itwas scary, it was also fantastic
because I just really kind ofgot in it.
I had really great leadership.
Then, from there we actuallymoved into more of an account
management capacity.
So where it sort of I was stilltechnically a hunter, I would
say, but I was almost huntingwithin my own book of business.
(18:57):
So I was given a book ofbusiness and within that my job
was cool.
You have these 200 companies,you have your quota.
That's set within a quarter andobviously that would increase
quarter over quarter by like 10to 15%.
So your job is find the currentspenders.
Of course, keep them spendingAlso find retention.
(19:19):
Retention, exactly.
So you have retention, you haveexpansion revenue as well and
then you have upsell revenue.
So those are my three sort ofcategories when I was there in
account management.
Then from there I switchedactually back to an account
executive role.
I wanted to experience thatagain, so I did FinTech for
about a year and that's actuallywhere I got my first experience
(19:40):
of working with an SDR,understanding what that was like
.
I'd never worked with an SDRbefore, so that was like I'd
never worked with an SDR before.
So that was also really coolbecause it was obviously a
partnership and justunderstanding already cool.
How often are you supposed tomeet with your SDR?
What does the fintech marketlook like?
That was also reallyinteresting because I think as a
salesperson sometimes you think, hey, I can handle every
(20:01):
industry that there is.
But obviously, as tech hasevolved throughout the years,
you realize what you're good atand maybe what you're not good
at.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Well, it's interesting.
So I think, just as I'mlistening through this, like I
don't think we've had manyguests who have talked about
whether they had the experienceor not of having a quota right
and like you describing like itwas very, probably very clear,
(20:31):
like if you either made yourgoal or you didn't right, it
didn't really matter why.
Um, and then the other part,and this was like I don't think
people who have not done coldoutreach know how hard that is.
It is really really hard to doand maintain a positive attitude
because you get rejection allthe time 90 95 of the time,
right, I mean, yeah, so it's, uh, it is, it is.
(20:52):
It is not for the faint of heart.
You know, some people love it,right, and I I was not one of
those people.
I learned to appreciate, kindof like how I learned I
appreciate people who play golfall the time.
I'm not very good, I'm not thatinterested in it I appreciate
how good people who are, uh, whoare good and consistent at it,
uh, it's kind of the same thingwith sales.
(21:12):
So, uh, thanks for walkingthrough that, because I think
that this is a really goodexample of like just the way you
talk about it is probably notwhat most of our listeners who
are have always been inmarketing or marketing ops have
talked about.
That part of the go to marketfunction, right, it's like.
If you don't really understandthat, then it's really hard to
(21:34):
appreciate what it's like.
So, thanks for doing that.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, I think just to connect the dots there also.
It's.
It's also helpful, I think,from a marketing perspective, to
make sure that you're gettingfeedback back from sales, right.
So they're obviously the onesthat are on the front lines
doing the cold calls, right.
But if you don't have thatactive communication, I think
with your sales team and you'retrying to understand, you won't
(21:59):
actually understand, right,which forms are not effective,
which campaigns are noteffective, which forums are not
effective?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
which campaigns are not effective?
Which events are not effective?
Lead scoring is broken or itneeds to be tweaked Maybe not
even broken, but it needs to betweaked.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It needs to be updated Exactly.
So what I tend to do also isthat we have Slack channels,
actually built here at OffSec,so through those I tend to
communicate with our BDR teamquite a bit.
They handle all of our livechats.
They handle all of our livechats.
They handle all of our likelead score mqls, for example,
that come in.
So what we try to do is beproactive about making sure that
(22:30):
they're following up with them,but then also just getting some
feedback on, like how theyperformed.
Um, who's handling the lead?
For example, if there's anysort of questions that they have
, what tools can they use intheir outreach?
I tend to try to do the samething with our sales team as
well.
So if I'm paying them, forexample, on like a lead that
they need to follow up on andthey're like, hey, this, you
know, this wasn't the qualitylead, et cetera, I do try to
(22:51):
push back and just understand,like what happened, and I know I
could be doing a better jobthere or do it more proactively.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
But something I've't agree more.
I mean, I think, buildingrelationship with sales teams,
whether it's BDRs or salesleaders or sales people like who
are.
You know they have a book,business or a quota.
It's really beneficial ingeneral to go do that, because I
(23:27):
think it would help some of thecrap that I see on B2B websites
in terms of the copy, becauseit usually is.
There's so much meaninglessdrivel and if you talk to
salespeople they don't use thatsame.
A lot of times they don't usethat same language right, they
use language that the customersactually get.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, exactly, and I think the biggest goal and I
see, I, I'm, I see the samething honestly that, especially
because it as obviously withinmarketing I'm sure you see this
as well.
You get hit up with so manyvendors all the time and then
you go on their websites andyou're like, okay, well, what do
you guys do?
And so much of it is just likehuge head scratcher right.
(24:06):
Yeah, I'm like, what are youguys saying?
Let's just simplify this, let'snot, maybe use ChatGPT for all
of our copy.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't even think it's ChatGPT.
I think this is not a newproblem.
This is a problem that's beenaround for 10, 15, 20 years.
Everyone wants to be seen asthought leaders.
I just am like I want stuffthat is very clear.
If you can't tell people whatyou do really clearly and
(24:33):
succinctly, you're going tostruggle getting attention.
And, by the way, if you're notmatching the way that people are
talking about, whatever spaceyou're in, that they're going to
be used for search, right,you're also not going to be
found through search engines andnow things like chat, gpt.
So, anyway, I could go on forthat for a while.
(24:54):
On that, um, but let's.
So I want to go back to so youwere, you transitioned to rev
ops in 21 ish time frame andthen you moved to marketing ops
from that which, by the way, Idon't think is all that common.
Like I think more people gofrom marketing ops to rev ops,
where rev ops is like acrossgood market functions.
(25:14):
But so I'm curious like, walkme through, like what was, what
was the driver behind that?
And then kind of the same thingas before.
Right, what were some of theeither?
Both lessons you learned alongthe way as you moved into the
marketing domain, or what thingsdid you, what skills did you
(25:35):
transfer it over that werehelpful from your previous roles
?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, definitely, let's see.
So I think, like I mentionedhigh level, we already talked
about structure.
I think I've always beencurious on how leads are
generated, right.
How do they get assigned tosales?
If I go back to my experienceat ZopDoc, for example, we used
to our marketing team would sendus notifications through like
NPS surveys, for example rightCool, you had your recent lead,
(26:00):
submit this NPS survey.
Here's what they want to focuson, here's what they're looking
to get out of it.
Why don't you make that reach?
So I always found that wasreally interesting because, a
obviously it gave me to know whoto reach out to.
B it gave me content toreference in my outreach, and
these were already existingclients that I was working with
right, so it was a done deal.
I'm like duh, I was going toobviously reach out.
(26:21):
So I think, connecting it back,it's always been wanting to
better understand the mechanicsbehind like sales processes how
leads are being generated, howare they being sent to sales and
why.
I think that's always beensomething I was curious about.
In my experience with Delos,like I mentioned, I started
working very heavily with ourmarketing team, so it was a
really great way to kind of getmy feet wet on understanding
(26:43):
different channels right.
So it was a really great way tokind of get my feet wet on
understanding different channelsRight.
I had no idea what paid searchwas, what paid social was, what
channels are or what, sorry whatmediums are utilized in those
channels Right, what's effective, what's not effective.
So really kind of getting myhands dirty, sending them those
metrics, being involved instarting to build reports,
qualifying leads, building outdashboards, for example.
(27:05):
I was really hands-on workingwith them, you know, day in and
day out, and that really kind ofgot me excited as well about
just marketing in general.
And then, before I know it, myrole actually, I would say
basically became marketingoperations.
Even in that capacity, my titlewas still revenue operations,
but I was handling HubSpotfull-time.
I was working very heavily withthem while also doing my own
(27:27):
job.
So it was a combination of both, I would say.
Also in that timeframe I workedagain with sales enablement as
well help them, like with anycoaching that they needed, for
example, whether it came tousing HubSpot, or maybe like if
they needed anything like youknow client calls or closing
deals or whatever it may be.
So I was starting to getinvolved with enablement there
(27:47):
as well, and then I think I justkind of naturally gravitated
towards marketing operations.
So it just made sense totransition into the role fully
and I was grateful enough tofind OutSec as an organization.
And really, I would say, inthis role, what I've been able
to really improve on andcontinue to work towards in my
(28:07):
career within operations isdefinitely process improvement,
data management and then, like Isaid, sales enablement.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Gotcha.
So the enablement piece.
So you did sales enablement,but it sounds like you're doing
enablement with marketing teamsas well.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
A little bit.
Yeah, I'm trying to get my feetwet there.
So, for example, if we have anylike gone cadence, for example,
that like I can help, you know,give a little feedback on, I do
try.
Or, for example, if there's anysort of like emails, for
example, I can like help workwith a demand gen team to revamp
.
I do try to do that.
Or, more importantly, I wouldsay a bigger example would be
(28:41):
when we get like a lead scoreNQL that's sent over to our ADR
team, for example, and they wantto know exactly what to
leverage in terms of theiroutreach, I work with them to
make sure that they know exactlywhat's important on the contact
record in HubSpot, I do thesame thing with our sales team
as they get a lead assigned tothem as well.
So, for example, when I startedhere last year, a few of the
(29:05):
things that we did was updateour forms.
So, for example, making surethat not only that the fields
that were already there, butalso just shortening the forms a
little bit and adding inadditional key fields, for
example, that might help thesales team understand how big of
an opportunity that they have.
So now that was entered intothe forms, now that's going over
to Salesforce, but already cool.
(29:26):
As a salesperson, how do youknow you have to look at that
Right.
So it would be, for example,like one of the things we did
last year was we created a deckwe presented to our sales team,
like monthly, for example.
Within one of the decks we madesure to include information
that they could reference intheir outreach.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Along with that, I'm also as I'm like so can you give
me an example of what you meanby that?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, like for like what fields, for example, to
leverage when you're makingoutreach and what these fields
mean, for example.
So one of the examples was likehow big of an opportunity, like
we obviously have it labeleddifferently within the form, but
it was like how big is yourteam or how many learners are
interested, because we'reobviously a certification
training company forcybersecurity.
So, that was really cool becausenow in all of our MQL forms
(30:07):
that's a field that's included.
So when I, as a salesperson, amgetting that, I can easily make
sure I look at that and Ileverage that in my outreach.
So I really enjoy that part ofmy role.
I wish it was a little bit moreas well, but if I'm making
outreach, for example, to salesreps, and if they have any
questions on how they shouldmake outreach what does the
source mean?
For example, why is thisrelevant?
(30:28):
I'm making sure I'm assistingthem as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So are you doing that kind of in an ad hoc way?
I mean, you talked about doinga presentation with the sales
team, but are you doingsomething that's as new people
come on board, right, there'sour existing training and
enablement content that they cango through to start with so
that you sort of acceleratetheir onboarding process.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I would say right now I'm doingit more ad hoc with existing
team members.
So if they have any sort ofoutreach questions that they
need to know, onboarding isobviously a little bit different
Like their managers will goahead and show them like hey,
these are like the ropes, forexample, here's what you need to
do, etc.
I'll make sure, like I introducemyself and then, as a lead, it
gets sent over, for example, toour sales reps.
(31:13):
I might ping them and just belike hey, you recently got
assigned this.
Were you able to see theworkflow notification?
Do you have any questions thatI can answer?
And from there the conversationwill naturally flow if they
have anything that I can helpwith.
Another example might be, forexample, if we have a recent
campaign that we ran and I'llmake sure from an operational
(31:34):
perspective, those leads areobviously properly assigned to
the reps.
But along with that that, hey,we have the proper nurture
workflow emails that are beingsent over, and then at the same
time, my counterpart and I areworking together and making sure
they have the proper cadence intheir outreach as well.
So I think it's a full cycleprocess.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Got it.
So are you?
What kind of feedback are yougetting from those teams when
you're doing that?
I mean, is it?
I'm just curious because,especially with marketers like I
don't know that there's maybeit's just me have we not done a
great job of providingenablement resources for our
(32:11):
marketing teams who might beusing, say, a marketing
automation platform or the CRMor whatever you know know?
Are you finding people grateful, annoyed, providing feedback
that you can go and improvestuff?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
like a little bit of all of those like I would say a
little bit of all of that yeah Ithink it's fair to say that
when you uh and I'm sure I'mguilty of this as well maybe I
over slack a little bit too much, or I've been slack too much,
like I think everybody has theirmoments where there's like
already like calm, slack alittle bit too much, or I've
been Slack too much, like Ithink everybody has their
moments where there's like, areyou like calm down a little bit?
But I do also think it'simportant to make sure that you
are at least you know you'repinging people, or if people
(32:45):
have questions, they'recomfortable reaching out to you,
for example, like, hey, why isthis lead getting assigned to me
?
How do I make outreach?
What does this source mean?
For example and I've been ableto also provide feedback on if
(33:06):
any forums need updates, forexample, where we should be
putting certain forums, forexample, based on where they are
in the funnel.
I'm a big proponent of workingcollaboratively with our team,
so I definitely don't want totake the credit there at all.
It's all about collaboration.
We tend to meet on like aweekly basis, for example, on
what's working, what's notworking, what are some key
(33:27):
projects that are coming up,what campaigns are going to be
happening.
Like I mentioned, what's goingto be going over to sales, do
they have the proper cadence tofollow up on?
And then also just trying tomake sure we're getting
proactive feedback, if we can,from the sales managers.
The other things I'm also doingis making sure that there's
proper tasks that are going overto the sales team.
So, for example, for some ofour high focus NQL forms, for
(33:49):
example, I'll make sure cool youhave the workflow that's
already notifying you If youdon't follow up within a day or
two, maybe there's a task thatalso goes out to you as a
reminder that this lead needs tobe followed up on.
So I try to be cognizant of,obviously, their time, giving
their gap because we have aglobal workforce, and then also,
just like a quick hey, just canyou go ahead and just make sure
you reach out.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Sorry, when you say you're um, you have that week.
I think you said a weeklyconnection with is that with
your counterpart in like a salesops role, or with the sales
managers or all the marketingleaders?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
yeah, that's a good question.
So I tend to have a weeklytouch base with our marketing
team, um, so usually I'll dolike a one-on-one with my
manager and then we'll also dolike a weekly touch base with
our team itself.
I also have a touch base,actually, with our sales
operations team.
So I tend to be proactive whereI'm like let me just make sure
I'm setting up these meetings inadvance, even if we don't have
anything to cover.
We'll cancel it if we don'tneed to.
(34:43):
But I find that it's a reallygreat way to have more of that
one-on-one conversation withyour counterparts that you're
actively working with.
With the sales managers, I tendto have a more open
relationship, so if I need toSlack them for example, ask any
questions, set up a meeting I'lldo that as well.
I know with my counterpart,they tend to touch base with the
sales managers more proactivelyas well.
(35:04):
So I think it's a combinationof both meetings, as well as
having open communicationsthrough Slack channels in case
you need anything.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So I'm curious do you think your experience having
been in sales makes it easierfor you to take what I'm sure
you get criticism right as apart of this feedback loop?
Right, but it's open and honest, as long as it's not like
personal attack, which is notokay.
But if it's feedback, whetheryou agree with it or not, like
how do you do you think thatexperience is having been in
(35:34):
sales and dealing with therejection and all the stuff that
goes with it has helped you inlike taking that and not like
taking it personally, I guess isthe best way to yeah,
definitely, absolutely, becauseI think you develop a very um, I
don't want to, I don't know ifI, if I want to use the word
hard exterior, uh, but it'salmost like another way of
(35:54):
saying that, right like whenyou're the salesperson you're.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
You know you're going to be getting someone to shut
the phone on you.
They might use some you knownot the best language.
They might call you names.
Whatever it might be, theycould or could not be the right
person to connect with.
I mean, I'm guilty of thismyself.
I will get sales calls Now.
Thank God you know whensomeone's a sit-AN so you can
just send them directly to yourvoicemail.
(36:18):
But you know, I think it'scandid to say it's okay to say
like you know, you built a toughexterior as a salesperson and
I've definitely brought thatexperience over with me to
operations as well, becauseyou're going to be.
There are things that I do welland then there's also things
that I can improve on as well.
Right, that could be whetherI'm building a better process.
Maybe I sent over the wrongleads, maybe I could have
(36:40):
communicated something moreeffectively.
That's something that I think Ihave definitely developed
throughout my career as well,and it's a big part of
operations.
When you have your data, forexample, or whatever you're
trying to communicate.
How to effectively communicatethat.
That's something I'mcontinuously trying to improve
on.
But if there are times, forexample, where maybe I'm over
explaining something, or maybeI'm explaining a technical
(37:02):
scenario to someone who needs itin more layman's terms, so,
there are definitely times whereI've also gotten feedback that
I can improve on something, andthat's completely fine and
that's a part of life.
So I would say, to answer yourquestion absolutely, I think
being a salesperson has given methat confidence to know what's
right and what's not and where Ican continue to improve and not
(37:22):
take anything personally,because at the end of the day,
we're all working towards thesame goal, we're all
professionals, right, and ifsomeone's giving you feedback,
take the feedback, see where wecan improve and do better, and
that's all we can say.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, it's interesting.
No, it's interesting.
And there's something thathappened recently in my
day-to-day where someone I wastalking to had some really
direct not like meant to be rudeor intimidating or anything
like that, but it was verydirect and we had a subsequent
(37:56):
conversation and I think thatperson's experience with other
people in the same kind ofscenario was they get defensive
and I don't know where it isalong the way, whether it's
being in sales, you know, justhaving more war wounds in
general, right.
But to me, again, I go back tolike, as long as you're not
(38:21):
taking, you know, takingpersonal shots at me or my
character, then I welcome andencourage all that feedback,
right, because I think it'svaluable.
It's valuable in different ways, right.
One is we all have blind spotsand so it's good to like know
where, like if you're doingsomething, but the I think the
more valuable one for anorganization is, the more you
can get that feedback loop goingin all directions, is it it?
It brings to light on thingsthat are broken, that you may
(38:45):
not have realized or that aredifficult for this other team,
and you didn't realize that you,what you were asking for them
to do, what it actually theactual implications was on their
day-to-day work.
Or if you're trying to figureout a solution, right, what's
like if you've got, you know,one person dominating the
conversation that may have well,be well-intentioned and be
smart, that still may not be thebest idea, right?
(39:07):
So I think surfacing more ideasjust leads to better outcomes
in general.
So what I do like I'm verymaybe proactive is not the right
word, but I'm very, very umexplicit.
When I work with teams,especially new teams, any of the
key stakeholders I work withthat might have feedback.
(39:27):
I I one of the things I set theexpectation with is I say I
want your feedback.
Right, if you've got an issue,you've got got a problem, come
to me, tell me what it is.
That's okay.
If it's a suggestion kind ofthing, I always tell them.
I may or may not do anythingabout it, but I want you to tell
me, because what I want to knowis, if you tell me and then
this other person tells mesomething similar and another
(39:49):
person tells me somethingsimilar, all of a sudden I'm
seeing a pattern and actually Ineed to pay attention to this
and it's going to get.
I will probably then try to dosome act on it if I can and if I
were to.
You know, give people theHeisman and not solicit that
feedback or not make it easy forthem to do it and feel
comfortable.
We'd all miss out.
So do you do?
I mean, do you do anything likethat?
(40:10):
Are you like, like, are you?
actively saying things like thatto them.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Definitely.
I always try to always end mycalls with what can I do better?
Where can I help you?
Is there anything I can takeoff your plate?
I think that's one of thethings that everybody should be
doing right, regardless ofwhatever career field that they
end, because at the end of theday, we're all working together.
We're all a team, and I thinkone of the things that sales has
(40:40):
really taught me is the valueof coachability and how
important that is in any part ofyour career.
Right, because that's yourpoint.
You're always going to begetting feedback.
It's good to be welcome tofeedback, and not just getting
the feedback, but also how youhandle it and how you take it
and then how you move forward.
Right, moving forward in strideis huge, whether that's in your
career or whether that's inlife.
So I would say, definitely akey point I've taken away from
(41:00):
my sales career that I've triedto add into operations is the
ability to always be coachable,continue to learn, continue to
train and, hopefully, you dobetter.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
So I'm curious.
So part of why I think I didn'tstay in sales beyond what I did
earlier in my career probablythe biggest reasons I just
wasn't made out to be that,especially at that point in my
career.
But I also, the manager Iworked for, was not a good.
He was not a coach, right, hewas more of a slave driver type,
right.
Oh no, didn't really provide alot of guidance, especially for
(41:33):
someone who, to be true, I had alow opinion of sales people and
I was like, oh, this will beeasy, um, but also like, didn't
get it, so do you had good salesmanagers or managers in general
that were providing feedback?
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I would say so, yeah, I was actually actionable
feedback definitely yeah.
So I mean, I've had some reallygreat managers at softdoc, at
indeed Indeed.
Yeah, I definitely did, I wouldsay, and even honestly, even my
managers in operations havebeen fantastic as well.
I've been trying.
My goal is to take away fromevery single manager a part of
their.
(42:08):
I guess everyone has differentpersonality working styles right
but your job is how malleableyou can be while working
underneath them, right?
So obviously, not every singleperson is going to get along,
and I think that's fine as well.
But to bring something to thetable I think it's important to
do that as well when you'rehaving one on ones.
For example, my job, always, mygoal, has always been to be
(42:28):
proactive, right.
What is my week looking like?
What are some projects I'mlooking to tackle, whether
that's in an operations capacity, then in a sales capacity.
Here's my top four clients, forexample, that I'm working with.
Here's what's holding them back.
Here's we're going to moveforward to help me close my
quota.
So I would say it's a two wayrelationship.
When you're working with yourmanager, obviously there's going
to be some people that are justidiots, and that's fine too,
(42:50):
and I'm not taking that away.
But I think, if you can, alwaysMichael, goal let's, let's
always be proactive, right.
So if you're having aone-on-one, try to always bring
something to the table insteadof just like asking them what
should I do.
Bring the ideas to the table ofhow you think you can maybe
handle a situation right.
Then get their feedback.
So, from a sales perspective,one of the things I really
(43:11):
enjoyed was I would.
My manager recommended to mehey, why don't we both listen to
a call that you did this week?
Let's analyze the call and seewhat worked well and what didn't
work well.
And that was really helpful,especially during COVID, because
we were virtual.
So it was a really great way toobviously continue to build
that relationship but also findout, as I'm listening back to
the call, where can I improve.
(43:33):
And it's really difficult tohear yourself back in a
voiceover and and you're notvery cool, like why did I do
this?
Why did I say that?
But it was a really greatlearning opportunity from me At
OffSec.
I've had the again theprivilege of having some really
great managers as well whoreally guided me within this
role, because switching overfrom revenue to marketing
operations again, like I said,it's a learning curve as well.
(43:54):
Right, I was doing marketing, Iwould say, in Delos as well,
but really being ingrained inthis role has taught me so much
and one of the things I thinkthat has been really helpful is
having proper guidance.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
So, whether you're being proactive about setting
those one on ones, bringingprojects to the table, finding
gaps, finding opportunities,getting managerial feedback,
getting good direction all ofthose things, I think, play a
factor and they tie in togetherit's interesting I don't know if
you did when you started sayingthat you need to be malleable,
I was probably kind of doingthis like kind of weird nod in
(44:26):
my head because, um, this isgoing to be an example where I'm
not like, I'm not notquestioning, but like I think
there's nuance to my positionthat when I've, when I've been a
manager, as a people where I'vecoached people who are
especially new, first timepeople, managers one of the
things I tell them as part ofyour job is, uh well, you
shouldn't expect people to adaptto your style, right.
(44:46):
Your job is to adapt to theirstyle, right.
So it's really to me it's beenmore of the manager who should
be malleable.
Um, I think you bring up somereally interesting points that
it would be as a manager.
It's always appreciated whenpeople can be I don't know,
malleable is not the right wordCoachable is definitely
something that I look for when Ihire people, but also, just I
(45:09):
like the proactiveness and noteverybody's going to be able to
do that and that's fine, butanything where you're kind of
like open to feedback and tryingto provide input in a way,
that's um, trying to be helpful,and then you know, I've had
people work for me who are veryproactive about soliciting
(45:31):
feedback, and not everyone was,and it's to the point where it
really stood out and it stillsurprises, surprises me that
people aren't asking for thatmore often.
So, anyway, I'm now likerethinking my, my, my viewpoint
a little bit on this, like whoshould be, who should be more or
less malleable or flexible, oradapt to the scenario between
(45:52):
two different people in a kindof manager direct report
situation.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
So thanks, that's good, of course.
No, I mean, this is reallygreat learning from you as well
and just kind of hearing yourperspective, so thank you for
that.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, interesting.
Well, I think.
I think we are going to have towrap it up here so kind of well
.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
If, if people want to, you know, learn more about what you've
you know, about what you'velearned over the years, or just
connect or whatever, what's thebest way for them to do that?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I would say LinkedIn is thebest, so I'm happy to send you
over my LinkedIn URL afterwards.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
We can drop that in the show notes if you want.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, definitely.
Okay sure I'll send that over.
That would be the best way Itend to any webinars I join, any
sort of sessions I'm a part of,or any certifications I have,
or I'll post it directly on myLinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
So that would be the best way to connect Perfect
Right.
Well, thank you again for doingthis.
It was a lot of fun.
I appreciate these differentperspectives and I don't think a
lot of people who are inmarketing ops have really been
exposed to this kind of level ofdetail of what it's like to be
in sales and then the transition.
So I think this is going to bevaluable for a lot of people.
So thank you, and thank you all, always as always to our
audience, for continuing tosupport us and share our
(47:09):
insights and our guests.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
reach out to Naomi, mike or me,either through LinkedIn or the
marketing ops community Slack,or if you have some other way of
reaching us, you can figure itout.
Please do until next time.
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Thank you so much, bye.
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