March 24, 2025 • 47 mins
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The modern job hunt is broken—but Ryan Murphy, Managing Partner at UpfrontOps, has cracked the code. After being forced to resign from his position during a cross-country move, Ryan found himself frantically applying to hundreds of jobs with zero responses. Through experimentation and insight from HR professionals, he developed a revolutionary approach that transformed his results from 0% to a 50% interview rate.
He reveals why most job seekers fail before they begin. Your resume likely scores terribly with Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS), the digital gatekeepers rejecting your applications before human eyes ever see them. The solution isn't just tweaking your resume—it's understanding the psychology of hiring managers and the hidden mechanics of job platforms like LinkedIn.
Ryan shares the exact strategy for optimizing your resume for ATS using JobScan.co, how to craft personalized connection messages that bypass premium LinkedIn requirements, and the precise phrase to use in interviews to discover a position's true salary range before revealing your expectations.
Ready to transform your job search? Whether you're currently looking or preparing for future opportunities in marketing operations, these battle-tested techniques will give you a significant advantage in a competitive market. Connect with Ryan at UpfrontOps.com to learn more and access templates that have helped professionals secure immediate salary increases and land roles they love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,flying solo today, Looking
forward to getting Naomi andMike back on at some time here
in the near future.
Joining me today is Ryan Murphyand Ryan, I know you've got the
T in there, so I don't know ifyou want that included or not.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, no, there are studies.
There are studies done where,if you use a middle initial,
people think you're smarter.
Ah, and, by the way, yeah, likeit's also a good trick if you
have your middle initial inLinkedIn, because then you can
catch the automated messages,because it shows it's like hello
, ryan T.
I'm like, oh, you didn't really.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I know some people
use the little emojis and stuffto do that Exactly.
Yeah, I know some people usethe little emojis and stuff to
do that.
Exactly, all right.
Well, so now you know Ryan TMurphy.
Ryan is the founder of UpfrontOps, a company transforming
revenue operations byintegrating sales, marketing and
customer service into aseamless, scalable system.
He has over 10 years ofexperience in RevOps and has led
(00:59):
multimillion-dollar marketinginitiatives, managed
cross-functional teams anddeveloped innovative automation
solutions that drive measurableresults.
Before that, he spearheadedenterprise-wide SaaS integration
, scaled marketing operationsfor a $40 million AR SaaS
company and implementedanalytics solutions for three
$35 million AR tech e-commercemarketplaces.
(01:21):
So, Ryan, thanks for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Happy to be here, Michael, and recently very
excited, I got a shout out fromHubSpot's blog too.
So pretty cool stuff.
Appreciate the intro.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Nice, all right.
Building a brand out there,right, definitely definitely All
right.
Well, good, well, we're glad tohave you.
I'm glad to have you.
I think this is a good one,given kind of the state of the
job market, which is what we'regoing to be talking about, and
we're going to get into somesuggestions you have that you've
learned over the years fromyour own experience and through
(01:58):
others.
But before we get to that, whatI'd like to do, I mean I gave
the thumbnail sketch of yourcareer journey.
I would love for you, I think,because, as I always think it's
interesting to hear people'sjourney, because I have yet to
find one that sounds likeanybody else's yeah, that's for
sure.
Walk through a little more ofyour career journey, like any
(02:20):
key decision points, inflectionpoints or people, right, that
had maybe an outsized impact onwhere your career went, and go
from there.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
For sure, let's kick it off.
So, graduated University ofHouston, from Texas, by the way.
University of Houston, yeehaw,oh, absolutely, howdy, howdy Go.
You know I can do the wholepodcast like this if it suits
your fancy, but no, no, I won't.
Um, yeah, people don't believeme when I say I'm from texas
because, uh, they're like, wait,you don't have an accent, I
(02:54):
don't, I don't get it all right.
But, um, lived, uh, 30 years intexas.
Graduated university, houston,electrical engineering, which is
that's a story for another day.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
But yeah, it's hard for us to be talking because I
have a.
I have a hate relationship withuniversity use and there's no
love.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, I do too, actually, that's yeah sure
that's another story, but yeah,let's see.
so then, um, first, right out ofcollege, got a job as an
electrical engineer nothing todo with marketing ops at all, um
, and they put me in engineering.
I was designing, I was I wasdesigning like modules that
(03:30):
would go into a rack on an oilrig in the middle of the gulf of
mexico.
I'm like like, who is thishelping?
Like I'm not, I'm not helpinganybody, right?
So so I got bored of that veryquickly and they um moved me to
process improvement.
And then, right which, we werein a management rotation program
, all the new hires right from Uof H, and my next rotation was
(03:55):
process improvement, where Ilearned Six Sigma.
I got like Six Sigma certified,all this stuff and implementing
initiatives for a 12,000-personglobal company, right, we are.
One project that we had to dowas do a real process
improvement, and there were 15sections of our proposal.
In the first, 13, we'redefining the problem, analyzing
(04:19):
the current state, and then only14, and 15 was like actually
talking about the solution thatwe proposed, that we proposed.
But, um, from there I kind ofrealized that I really like
operations and process and youknow things like that and, uh, I
I kind of just pursuedoperations roles, general
operations, um, went intomarketing, uh, also for a oil
(04:42):
and gas company startup and thiscompany I have to say the name
of it because it's part of thestory, otherwise I wouldn't name
drop.
But yeah it's called, it'scalled.
It was called.
It's not around anymore.
It was called Data Gumbo.
All right, they hired me as anapi engineer because they're
(05:05):
like oh we, we saw you had arolling gas experience and you,
you know, you know all that.
Um, that was fine, you know.
But one day, you know, we hadan open office experience like a
, like a.
We were kind of a um, one day Iwas listening to the sales team
talk about the uh web trafficnumbers and you know, for this,
for the ceo and founder to be ona video feature on bloomberg,
(05:27):
like all this amazing pr likelike this is taking off.
I mean, we got like, I thinkwhen they hired me, I was like
employee number 23 or something,and then they had just closed
series a.
So they, they were, they werecooking right.
So sales guys talk about the webtraffic numbers and I'm like
man, that is super low, that'ssuper low Like for for this
(05:48):
company, for all that buzz isgenerating.
And so I asked my manager.
I said, hey, do you mind if I,if I look into this, cause I uh,
I've been messing around withlike Google search console and
you know, uh, google analyticsand things like that.
So, anyway, I pull a googlesearch.
Uh yeah, google search consolereport on datagumbocom, which,
by the way, is a sas company,uses blockchain and all this
(06:11):
stuff for smart contracts.
Very, very like high-tech,modern web 3, all that, all that
stuff.
Right, pull the search consolereport.
And the number one term thatpopped up, or like basically
what you had to type into googleto get data gumbo to appear on
the front page of google, wasthe phrase best gumbo near me.
(06:33):
All right, so google wasthinking this whole time they
were a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Oh my goodness not a sass company, right, because
it's like nobody, nobody paidattention to this stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And I brought that to the CEO and he said he's like,
wow, I didn't know we neededwhat, you know how to do.
And then they brought in amarketing consultant and then we
chatted and then she saidsomething to me in passing.
She's like you know, you doreally well in marketing
operations, really well inmarketing operations.
And then, and then from there,you know, I just I just um
(07:11):
optimize my resume, which I'm soexcited to get into because, uh
, yeah, because I'll tell youwhat it was like before, before
my big journey, because you know, I I'm in New Jersey now.
I'm like right across from, uh,Manhattan.
I'm like just one ferry, ferry,right away.
If anyone is in New York wantsto meet up, that's super cool.
Right, I work from home, soanytime anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So so you were at Data Gumbo and then that's right
.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right, right, right.
So we were talking aboutoptimizing my resume, right?
So when I moved from Texas, orwhen I moved to New Jersey,
which is where I live now, whenI was working at Data Gumbo
which, by the way, I moved forfamily, that's what brought me
up here, sure, up here, sure, um, the hr person in data gumbo
said, hey, if you leave texas,you no longer have a job.
(08:08):
I'm like well, why, why not?
And and she's like well, we,there's something about the tax
laws or something.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I I don't know the technicalities of it, maybe,
maybe you do, michael, with yourbackground I do know there's
states, different states aredifferent, so there might be
something to do with that andyeah, yeah, they're they.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
They couldn't keep me employed, so they're like if
you move to new jersey, youcan't, or like you, you, you
have to resign.
So I did, because I moved forfamily, right, I mean, I was
sure it was, it was not anoption, so that's a big, that's
a big inflection point there.
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I mean Imean, uh, you know, have one
daughter.
She's four and, uh, I moved tobe closer to her in in in New
(08:47):
Jersey.
Um, she was, she was like sixmonths old at the time, but now
she's four.
But, um, I'm like man, I amlike really kind of SOL here If
I'm moving across the countrywith no income, right, uh, in
the middle of a pandemic.
This is 2021.
(09:08):
All right, I'm like what, whatdo I do?
So, pulling from my previousstartup days where I had a, um,
uh, ed tech startup for fouryears totally different topic um
, I know how to use upworkpretty well to find really
talented people, which can be,which can be, you know, a topic
(09:29):
on its own, but but I, I lookedspecifically for an HR
consultant, um, that companieswould hire to for, for, for,
like her, to write their jobdescriptions or something like
that.
So she was the HR consultant,told her my, my story and she
said, yeah, I'm definitely goingto help you Name which, which,
by the way, she, she's her ownindependent contractor and does
(09:51):
this full-time named, uh, shandyTucker.
So this, this, I learned a lotfrom her.
I learned a lot from otherother places and I'm kind of
kind of um uh, michael what'sthe word where you uh gather a
bunch of information?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
no, you're just like you're sharing what you've
learned across the way.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's the word.
So curated stuff today, reallyexciting.
So one of the biggest mistakesI was making, uh, first, which I
met.
I met Chandy.
We talked every day, we.
She spent six months workingwith me.
We two hours on the phone everyweek for six months while I was
getting settled in New Jerseyand we were, you know, and I was
(10:35):
like Chandy, I need to, I needto find a job like very quickly,
cause I already signed a leasein New Jersey.
I can't, you know, most peoplewould find that to be backwards,
right Like I signed a leasebefore I had income anyway,
because I I verified my incomewith the old job.
Right, so so you know anyway, Iwas doing those one click apply
jobs which everyone I talked tohas like no luck with those.
(10:58):
Yeah, I would click on ahundred of them and get zero,
like literally zero of anything,like no, no one would respond,
um, and now that's all I use isthose one click apply and I'll
just tell you the.
I'll tell you the outcome andthen we'll go into how.
(11:19):
You know, like, how did it?
I can now click with mycriteria that that that I that I
learned with my criteria.
I can click six one click applyjobs and get three interviews.
All right, so that's aninsanely insane improvement
(11:39):
right From from before.
So so let me go through thefirst first part, first tips.
So so let me go through thefirst first part, first tips.
What I did, that was soimportant, was I only applied
for the same job title.
Why is that important?
Because you're someone's resume.
They run it through somethingcalled an ATS, which I know,
(12:00):
michael, you know all about Yep,absolutely, absolutely, and and
I've actually never logged intothem, I know, I know you've had
teams experience with, withthat kind of stuff, with what
your background is, um, but withthat, with the ATS running the
(12:20):
show, especially now with AI andthings like that.
Um, you have, you have to belike, you have to be perfect for
the role.
You don't have to be theperfect candidate Um, in a way
you do, which I'll get into butbut basically the first, the
first one really is to make sureyour resume can stand up to the
(12:44):
fire that the ATS is going tothrow at it.
And how do we do that?
So, if you're applying formarketing manager, if that's the
job you want marketing manager,um, or, more relevant, if the
job you want is marketing opsmanager, then you this is not
about you applying to demand genmanager or social media manager
(13:08):
or email marketing manager.
Those are two.
Those are totally differentroles in the eyes of an ATS,
right?
So you know the.
The classic advice or whatever,which I don't do, is that
they're like oh, customize yourresume for every single job, no
one has time for that.
Like, I didn't have time forthat, I needed to find a job
(13:28):
immediately.
So I found the one job titlethat I wanted first.
Then I used a tool calledJobscanco Love it, love it, love
it, love it, jobscanco.
I think it's like 40 bucks amonth or something If you're, if
you're looking for a new role.
It's like absolutely essentialthat that that uses tool,
(13:49):
because it's essentially an ATSthat you can use as the
candidate.
Okay, so what you do with it isyou, side by side, you paste
your resume on the left, currentresume Right, your current
resume on the left, and youpaste the job description on the
right.
Yep, and then it, it, it doesits magic and tells you in a
(14:12):
percentage uh, how, how many, uh, what percentage likelihood
you're going to get that jobbased on the resume you
currently have.
Okay, oh, interesting, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Does it give you, does it give you feedback on
what to change?
Then, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Okay, yep, it'll say oh, you use the word SaaS four
times and you should use it sixtimes Like.
It gets a really granular withthat.
And so when I first uploaded myresume for marketing operations
manager and I pasted amarketing operations manager job
description, when I got off ofLinkedIn copy to paste Right, um
, my score was like 22 out of ahundred.
(14:48):
It was like there, no wonder Iwas clicking a hundred, one
click applies and gettingnothing.
Because, like, the ATS was like, okay, this guy's 22 out of a
hundred.
Obviously, we're not going totalk to him, all right.
So once I ran it through jobscan, job scanco, and did all
(15:12):
the things it was asking me todo, um, I got my score from like
, like with my resume because I,I would, I would move words
around, you know, use synonymsthat would match the job, the
job description, and my scoreeventually went from like 22 or
something to like and my scoreeventually went from like 22 or
something to like 60 or 70 outof a hundred, which is more than
enough to like.
You know, uh, put it inproduction, right.
So, um, that is the first andactually the most important
(15:35):
thing is is is that you got tostand, you got to like be ATS
ready, and a lot of people arenot ATS ready.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Well, it's interesting because this is
consistent with advice that II've heard and I've shared with
people who are like when I talkto people who are on job hunt
and they want help, like thenetworking whatever is um, get
as specific as you can aboutwhat you're looking for, right
and so this takes it, I think,another level, kind of another
click deeper, in that not onlyare you being really specific
(16:04):
about the jobs or the titlesthat you look for, but you're
then tailoring.
If I've got this right, asingle resume Right To.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
A single job title.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right, a single job title that you hope and expect
will have similar jobdescriptions Right, right right,
right, and usually, and now Imean what's you know?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
what's so interesting is that I have a blog on
upfrontopscom and one of themost popular blog posts is
called roles andresponsibilities of a marketing
ops manager and according to myanalytics, that blog post has
the longest engagement time.
So I can reasonably concludethat HR managers are looking at
my blog post to build their jobdescription, which is wild to me
(16:52):
to assume that 80, 90% of thecompanies with the same job
title are going to have very,very similar job descriptions.
Sure, which, which I think, Ithink, michael you, you would
know a lot better than I wouldon that.
On that end of things, I think,certainly at um.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I think when you it might vary more as you get to
like director and above levels,because that's where you might
start seeing things like notalways do marketing ops leaders
have things like.
You know you're managing thebudget like kind of in a chief
of staff way.
You're managing the marketingbudget overall right, which is
(17:30):
I've had in a director, seniordirector level role before, but
not always right.
So there's like but those are.
I mean, that's a relativelyminor thing that we, or at least
it's an important thing from anactual job, but um, uh, it's,
it's important for um, like theperson who's going for it, but
(17:52):
from a job description it's likeone bullet point maybe.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, and I think I think that's really the dividing
line.
I think you really hit onsomething great is that.
I think that and please correctme if I'm wrong but the the
really the dividing line betweenmanager and director is really
that, that budget piece.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You think that's accurate well, and I'm
specifically talking about notjust managing a budget like
managing my own budget.
I'm talking about managing thefull marketing budget, like
being really, you know, theright hand for the CMO when it
comes to not just operations andtechnology, but also like
managing the budget.
In my experience and I don'tthink most marketers who might
(18:34):
be listening to this woulddisagree, like most marketers
I've met are not very good atmanaging a budget, um, and
there's some of that is to beexpected, like I, I I recognize
that in marketing ops, when I'mmanaging managing my budget, I
may have a big dollar amount, um, but relatively few
transactions, right.
You're paying, paying for yourright market automation platform
(18:57):
once a year.
You do a lot of yearly stuff,maybe a couple of monthly things
, whereas if you're an eventmanager event marketing manager,
field marketing manager andyou're running events, you've
got dozens and dozens of smalltransactions happening all the
time for doing multiple events,right.
So just keeping up with theadministrative part of it is a
(19:20):
different beast, but at the sametime, I still find that they're
generally not great at managinga budget.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, um, would it actually?
You know what I just realized?
Would it be helpful to list allthe five tips?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, while we do that, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Okay, so the first one we covered, actually I think
the first two we used use jobscan.
Right, like you gotta use jobscan.
There's like there's no otherway.
And then the second one is onlyapply to the job title that you
optimize that resume for.
If you wanna be social media,if you want to apply to social
(19:59):
media manager, marketing manager, demand manager, you got to
have three resumes, but youdon't have to have a resume for
every single company.
That's just that's just silly.
And then the third thing, whichis um, uh, kind of kind of not
very well known.
This is really where it getskind of like insider.
In my opinion Never apply,never apply to anything over 24
(20:23):
hours old.
We'll go into that one.
That's really really, reallyinteresting to me.
When I learned that, I was likeWhoa.
Now another one controversialdon't apply to jobs that require
cover letters.
I'm like I'm not, I'm not goingto do it, because I know
there's a lot of buzz right nowon LinkedIn where there's like
oh, I don't accept candidateswho use an AI for a cover letter
(20:44):
, which is just like why, why,why, in the first place anyway?
And then the fifth one is onlyapply to jobs that allow you to
message the recruiter directlyin the job post.
It'll.
It'll show their LinkedInprofile, their photo, and you
can click on it.
And then you know, um, I alwaysconnect with them and I'll go,
(21:05):
I'll go through.
I'll go through the details onthat too.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
So yeah, yeah, so this is um, I think just to make
sure, like this is you'rethinking for jobs and as opposed
to other job boards.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, like, like, like, zip recruiter I.
If you want help on ziprecruiter, I got nothing for you
.
Yeah, for sure, I mean, butyeah for LinkedIn.
Oh, and then also I got a.
I got a bonus tip.
I got a.
I got a six bonus.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Oh, all right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So the sixth one is never applied to jobs with more
than 10, uh, applicants.
Already you can see that at thetop of the job post.
Um, that's why.
That's why I only go to oneclick apply jobs now, because
one click apply jobs remain inLinkedIn, as opposed to an apply
(21:54):
button that takes you to adifferent website.
Right that?
So the one click apply stays inLinkedIn and then they can.
They can see how manyapplicants there are and and and
.
If you know all that there's,there's a lot more data when you
do the one click applies.
That really helps you as acandidate looking for an
obstacle.
So, less than so, the.
So my filter criteria is thisless than 24 hours old, which is
(22:16):
super interesting to me, thatLinkedIn has that specific
filter.
Yeah, Less than 24 hours old.
It's in the more filters area.
It's not.
It's not right.
Right in front of you.
Um, you got to dig, but it'sworth it.
Less than 24 hours old.
Less than 10 applicants.
No cover letter requirement.
Um-click apply and able tomessage the job poster.
(22:41):
Right, if you follow all thosethings, you are going to get a
50% click-to-interview rate.
Interesting.
I've been doing it since 2021.
It works every time.
It's absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's great, it's it works every time.
It's absolutely incredible.
That's that's great.
So this is like right off thetop right.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
That cuts out a whole bunch of potential jobs if you
limit it, for sure okay, likeI'll see a, I'll see a job post,
like on my phone, I'll get,I'll get alerts and stuff and um
, I'll.
You know, oh, oh, uh, stripe ishiring a new marketing ops
manager and I click and it wasposted literally minutes ago and
there's like hundreds ofapplicants already.
I'm like nope, next, like it'sjust, you're never going to.
(23:26):
Because, okay, now I think wecan go into the.
We really went in depth withthat, with that optimizing your
resume and the ATS one.
Do you want me to go in depthinto the, the psychology of the,
of the?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
of the HR person.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know youand I talked about this and I
think it'll be interesting tohear, like the the why and I.
And then maybe I have a reallyspecific question about the 24
hour one, like what, what aboutstuff that gets posted on late,
late on?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
a Friday or over the weekend, Right?
Does it 24 hours still apply,or is it?
I mean, I think it, I think itwould Um, because I say that,
because I um, I don't see a lotof job posts on Fridays, you
know, I um it's.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
there's someone that I see.
I see on the weekends for sure.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Fridays.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I mean I, I, I think this is all anecdotal, like I'm
I'm trying to yeah, yeah,remember sure it also.
Well, we can get to get to thenext one I have.
I have a question about the umone click apply.
But we can get to that when weget there, for sure.
For sure?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
so, um, yeah, 24 hour rule is so is so important
because what's so interesting tome is that linkedin has filters
like how long ago it was posted, and the filters say option one
is anytime, option two is likea week ago and then option three
is less than 24 hours ago.
So like they, they, they, theykind of know.
So the reason why this 24 hourrule is so important is because,
(24:54):
if you think about it from theother side of the table, you're
the one looking for a candidateto do some job, because your
boss has asked you to.
You know, write a job post andit's like your job to find the
best person.
So you just spent so longgetting the perfect job
description and doing all yourresearch, going to the
(25:14):
upfrontopscom blog to get allthe things you need to put in
the job post.
Obviously, you've made thisperfect job description and you
post it and think about it likeposting anything else on social
media.
You're going to checkimmediately if it's doing well,
if it's getting a lot of likes,a lot of attention.
(25:34):
Right, it's, it's that, it'sthat instant um it's a
gratification yeah, yeah, it's a.
Yeah, like the, it's a dopamineor whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
And so you're, you're, if youimagine yourself in the job
poster shoes, like they're,they're like checking every
minute, right, if somebody hasapplied to their job.
And that's why, that's why umalso, and like it applies to me
(25:57):
too, right, I mean, I, I postjobs for like little contractor
roles for um upfront opscom,like all the time, and I'm I'm
constantly checking in the first24 hours of like all right,
who's applied to this, who'sapplied to this?
Now, the 10 applicant role isanother really important thing,
because once you have 10 peoplethat are interested, you're like
(26:21):
, you're like overwhelmed atthat point as an HR person.
You're like you know, and andyou know, I've never been, I've,
I've, I've never been an HR uhrep, but this is just kind of it
seems.
It seems clear to me that thatthis is just like kind of
psychology related in some way.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Um, just to just to see if, like, your hard work
paid off because you found theperfect candidate and the
applied immediately, or he orshe applied immediately, um, and
that's that's why, that's whythat's that's so important, and
then so, yeah, I mean, I suspectjust kind of going into the
psychology part of it is like itfeels like there's something
like the paradox of choice thatcomes into play, right, when I
(27:05):
mean, if you've ever been to arestaurant and their menu is 10
items, right, You're like, oh,I'll just pick number seven,
Like that one looks like thebest one.
You're not going to like, youjust know there's not.
But if you have a menu that hasa hundred items, it's like
really fucking hard, right, itreally is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
It's overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And so, uh, I I imagine there's something
related to that I also it's.
It's interesting, I mean and ifI mean because today, I mean I
think many of our listenerswould, especially if they're out
there looking right, they'llsee, like you did.
Right, you described a post,something got posted and within
minutes, if not, you know,within a day, within minutes,
(27:46):
sometimes within hours, you knowthere are 100 plus applicants,
which is sort of astounding tome, because the likelihood that
there are actually 100 people ormore who actually qualify for
that particular job yes, I knowthere are a lot of people out on
the market looking, so mayberight now that is true.
At the same time, I think thisis a good example of why, the
(28:11):
more specific you can get, knowwhere you can tailor what you're
doing to something specific andreally stand out, the better
off you're going to be.
Um, because I know on the otherside, like where I've been the
recipient, usually there's atalent acquisition, an HR person
doing initial screening, but Ivery often find that they, um,
(28:32):
they don't really understandthese kinds of roles very well,
so it's hard for them to it'shard for them to do the
screening effectively and theyeither screen out people who
they think don't match becausethe ATS says something, or
they're too loose, so they sendpeople who are like I look at it
and I'm going like I don't know, not a fit, right, I can do
that pretty quickly, but I tendto spend a lot of time looking
(28:56):
at myself and there it's veryobviously like people are just
posting on just about anythingthat seems close to anything
that they might've done at anypoint in their life or career
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Exactly Now.
Now, I know that, I know that,um, I know that you had asked me
previously about how howimportant is it to optimize
LinkedIn profile and um, superand super important, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You like I'm going to come back to this.
So we didn't cover the.
So the 24-hour rule, right?
All right, somebody's trying toget a hold of you, so I get the
no cover letters thing.
The two that I think quicklywill end up dropping the number
(29:46):
of potential jobs quickly arethe one click apply and the be
able to message the job poster.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Right, it does narrow it down a lot for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, because I mean, again anecdotally, it feels
like the vast majority of rolesthat I have seen historically
posted on LinkedIn I don't knowwhat the percentage is, I'm
going to guess it's 90 pluspercent actually go to whatever
that company's careers site isright.
Job posting site yeah, I mean,I would agree with that.
(30:20):
And then I think I've seen morepeople posting jobs where
there's actually somebody who's,you know, the poster or the
hiring team.
I think LinkedIn now is likewho's the hiring team, but still
seems like a pretty significantminority.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
So, um, yeah, I mean, if there's thousands of roles
out there, like with thiscriteria, you you might be lucky
to come back with 15, butyou're going to get, like, if
you do all the, you do all thethings in which which, by the
way, this is super important away, a way to make sure you get
that that interview request isthe re like.
(30:55):
Let me go into a second likefor for a second, why it's so
important to, um, uh, be able tomessage a job poster, because
this is this, is it?
This is it when you click attheir pro, when you click
through to their profile and youclick through to their profile,
you can connect with them.
A lot of people just recklesslyhit connect and then they move
(31:18):
on to the next one.
That's no, no, no, You're notdone yet, You're not done yet.
Always, always, always, always,add a note to the connection
request.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And there are so this is how you avoid having to have
a premium subscription toLinkedIn.
Exactly, you don't need premium.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Exactly.
And so you need three thingsyou need the exact and I'm
talking exact job title in thisconnection, request, like, if it
says director comma, marketingops, and demand, like you're
right, the entire thing word forword, copy and paste, yeah,
yeah, uh, so you need the job.
So he's like hey, um, I don'tknow.
(32:00):
Hey, suzy, uh, I just I this ismy note, by the way this, like
this, is what I would write hey,suzy, uh, I just saw you posted
a job.
Um, I just saw you posted a anopen role for director comma,
marketing ops, and I believe,like, literally, steal this.
(32:20):
I believe I'm the idealcandidate because, and then,
right after that, you're goingto literally go to the job
description and copy and pasteone of the first things that you
see in under responsibilities.
I believe I'm an ideal candidatebecause I streamline CRM
systems, excited to connect, andyou leave your cell phone
(32:43):
number, got it.
So, so they know you're like areal person.
Okay, um, I've never had arecruiter call my cell phone, uh
, from that, but, but, but I'vehad a lot of recruiters message
me back after I leave that note.
So, so, hey, susie, I saw youposted an open role for director
called marketing ops.
I believe I'm an idealcandidate because, uh, I've
streamlined, like literally copyand paste, streamline CRM
(33:04):
systems and set up Marketo, uh,and looking forward to connect
uh Ryan and then sell colon, andusually that is like right at
the character limit when you dothat Cause it's 300, I think is
the for sure, yeah, and so itmight take a little bit of a
little bit of massaging, but butuh, but you can definitely, you
(33:26):
can definitely fit all that inthere, that's like a that's like
a template, that's so important.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, cause that's so important.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, because it opens the conversation.
I mean, you already have anedge.
You already have an edge Ifyou're opening the conversation
with the HR person.
No one else is doing this.
I mean well, except for now,because now a ton of people are
going to hear this podcastno-transcript, at least at that
(34:03):
point in my career.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
One of the things I learned is you are already in a
situation like this.
If you were willing to just askpeople for something and being
comfortable with them saying noor just ignoring it right.
Ask people for something andbeing comfortable with them
saying no or just ignoring itright, then you're already ahead
of 90 of the people becausethey are too scared to even take
that step yeah, absolutely, umand yeah or for sure.
(34:26):
Yeah, they are comfortable withit.
They don't want to be botheredlike.
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
There's lots of good reasons why people are don't
want to do it now, now, realquick, I'll throw this in um, I
I kind of glossed over this alittle bit, but, but, uh, but
you, when we're, when we'retalking about your linkedin
profile, you, yeah, youdefinitely have to optimize it,
but you have to optimize it.
But, uh, very conveniently, jobscan has a linkedin section that
(34:49):
will do the same thing that itdid to your resume so so, just
just just let job scan handleall that, and you'll be golden
with that stuff um, do you know,if I know you talked about job
scan a couple of times here.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Um, I think I've heard there also some, and I
don't know any specifically, butI've heard there are some,
maybe custom gpts or other aikinds of tools that do similar
things.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So yeah, I mean it's possible.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I I know that, I know you know what you've used and
you like it and it's beensuccessful, right?
Yeah, I mean, it's possible, I,I know that, I know you.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Just, you know what you've used and you like it has
been successful, right, yeah, Imean, I mean I, I, I'm, I'm like
super, super familiar with ai,make ai models from scratch, uh,
depending on the uh, dependingon the occasion.
And you know, this is, this ismore than just like a generic gT
output or even a specializedGPT output.
This actually goes through andlike counts all the words and
(35:39):
like you know, you say this andthey say that and you got to say
this and um, it goes it likechecks boxes for, like, soft
skills and and you know all that.
It's, it's, it's designed, it'sit's, you know, purpose built
for this task.
So so, um, I guess know, I'venever, I've never like okay I've
never questioned me paying forit, and it was, you know well
(36:01):
and I'm not even saying like Ithink.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I mean I've seen and heard at least people posting
about ai tools that do thingssimilar to this yeah not all of
them are free, or the free leveldoesn't really do what you need
.
So it's not about the cost, Ithink, from that standpoint.
But anyway, with that I meanyou've got one that works
Curious on.
So we've got these sort of five, six things that you say work
(36:29):
well.
Have you done any kind ofexperimentation where you go
like I'm actually going to goahead and follow all the rules
except for the limit of 10 10applicants?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
right, and I'm gonna like go, you know, apply to
something that has 25 or 50people already yeah, I mean, I
mean I I stretch it a bit if I'm, if I find one that's like 13
or 14 or 15, I'll still apply,if I'm like really strong for
the role, um, but but if it onceit gets into like the, the, the
(37:02):
twenties and thirties andforties, like you don't have a
shot, you just don't, causethey're already talking to the
first 20 people.
They've already set upinterviews with them.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Right, so so yeah, and then maybe a similar one
like what if it's been more than24 hours, but you see there's
only seven applicants, that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That's okay, because it means that, I would think, in
my opinion, it suggests thatthere's not a lot of good
candidates or not a lot ofinterest in the role, which,
yeah, I mean, I think.
Actually, by the way, I didn'teven, I didn't even mention this
.
Linkedin has a filter for thistoo under 10 applicants.
(37:40):
So this is this is like a superlike somebody thought of this
which is which is superinteresting.
Yeah and um, but do you, do youwant, do I?
I have this, I have this ideafor the interview.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Do you want me to?
Do you want to go into that?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
so like how like.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
So now you get the interview and what do you?
How do you handle that?
Sure, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
This is the most important thing.
It is so important, uh, becauseif, without this, you're,
you're, you're, you're in badshape.
Um, a lot of times, mostlyevery time, I know what happened
with me.
When you get an interview phonecall, that screening call,
cause that's the first step.
You know there's a screeningcall, you listen to them, ask
(38:24):
you questions common, commoncourtesy, common etiquette you
let the, let the interviewer askyou questions as the candidate,
I don't do that, and that'ssuper important for one topic,
and that is salary.
If you wait until they ask youwhat are your salary
(38:46):
expectations, you lost, youalready lost.
You're going to get the minimumauthorized amount and the HR
rep is going to have a winbecause they got you super,
super cheap.
All right, so I beat him to it.
I beat him to it.
And how do I do that?
(39:07):
One of the first things I sayoh hey, how's it going?
I'm so glad you called me.
Yeah, um, tell me about, tell meabout your background, or like
what to tell me about yourself,or like like whatever.
Oh, yeah, absolutely Happy toreal, real quick, though, real
quick, sorry.
Well, you don't have to saysorry, I'm just real quick, I
didn't see.
I say this word for word, wordfor word, real quick.
(39:29):
I didn't see an authorizedbudget range for this role.
Do you happen to have thatinformation?
That's it.
I've had someone tell me oh,actually I don't know, you don't
know, that's not true.
And so when they said I don'tknow, I literally was just like
(39:53):
silent.
I'm like there's no fucking way, you don't know Like you,
you're the HR person, like comeon, and then it was silent for
like five seconds.
They're like uh, yeah, I thinkit's 90 to 110 a year.
Okay, thanks, anyway, aboutmyself, about my background, and
then I'll just continue withthe interview.
And, um, yeah, you got to beathim to that, to that question,
(40:14):
because you could be seriouslyundervaluing yourself.
If you know, the common trap islike oh, what'd you make it
your last job?
Oh, I made 90.
Great, we'll pay you 92 whenthey were authorized to pay you
like 140,.
You know like you're right.
You know, I know that, um,which, while we're on this topic
(40:34):
, I, I had a, um had a.
It was long, long ago before Iknew Marketo.
Um, I, I had only had HubSpotexperience and I had applied to
a very large tech company thatis very well known.
But I won't, I won't name, dropthem Um billion billion dollar
tech company, easy, easy, andthe role was marketing
(40:55):
operations manager.
And the salary which?
Because I'd use that technique,I?
I said, well, what's theauthorized budget range for this
?
They said, they said we'reprepared to start negotiations
at 160 000 a year.
This was like three years ago,four years ago, five, five years
ago.
Which is like what, right, thatwas that for a manager.
(41:18):
You know dearly that that's,that's pretty dang good.
And then, and then there waslike a, like a $50,000 stock
options, like $10,000 signingbonus, whatever, whatever.
It was sweet, all right.
Now they said, do you knowMarketo?
And by at this time, it was likelike four or five years ago, I
didn't, I didn't, and I washonest, it was very honest and I
(41:41):
said, um, I I've never usedMarketo, but, um, I, you, I'm a,
I'm, I have all thesecertifications in HubSpot and,
like, I've seen YouTube videos,it's like almost the same thing.
Guess who didn't get a call back?
Yeah, can't say that, you justcan't like that, because, like
you, like you said beforemichael, like, um, you know,
(42:02):
sometimes these people postingthese roles, especially on the
screening call before you get toa hiring manager, like they
don't really know the technicalend, like you were saying, and
so they're just listening to see.
If you check off the boxes onthe job description, right, and
if you don't, okay, on to thenext one.
We have a hundred thousandpeople who applied for this
thing, yeah, on to the next.
(42:24):
You know, so you know?
Read between the lines on thatone, I guess I'm not.
I'm not going to tell you to doanything that's against your
ethics or whatever, but no, I Imean I would.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
You'd never want to.
I mean, this is the danger ofusing some of these tools to
redo your resume, especiallylike I've seen and heard people
who've done that with.
Well, I've seen it in just ingeneral, with chat gpt, for
example, where it generatesstuff that is just made up right
oh, totally it right.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
It told me the other day that HubSpot had a venue
management module.
No it doesn't Anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So if you I mean you you want to be cautious, I mean
you, uh, and you are when, when,when, when it comes to shove
and they really dig into, likeuh, if you say you have Marketoo
experience, but you don't like,you've only maybe you've seen
it, the logo, and you've loggedinto a script, you know great, I
mean be honest about it.
(43:23):
But yeah, I mean you know, tellthe story about how what you've
done would be a way that you,like you knows.
You know that you would then beable to quickly learn this
platform and why?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
an example ideally an example of how you did
something similar with yeah, andI find I find that hiring, like
screening calls and hiringmanagers, they really love the
phrase hit the ground running,they really love that.
It's like, oh yeah, ummarquetto, absolutely love
marquetto, I can definitely hitthe ground running.
I mean, you didn't lie.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, smart hiring manager will ask tell me about
your experience right.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, it's tough, it's a tough one, it's really
tough.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I mean, I think the key, the thing about asking the
question about compensationrange or other key things that
are, I would say, another goodexample of something is, I think
um, I think this isparticularly true of SAS
companies is they they they tendto have a hard, a fairly hard
(44:29):
requirement when they hireexperienced people that they
have experience with SAScompanies.
Now do I think that that's asmart thing to do, because you
get groups in?
I don't know that thatnecessarily makes sense.
I understand why they do it, sothat people can hit the ground
running right.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
At the same time, the quicker you can find out.
Is there some sort of hardrequirement that I absolutely
just am not going to meet?
The better right.
So the comp range is not onethat I'm willing to accept.
Yeah right if there's ifthey're just going to say you
have to have sass experience,you can't like.
I like, like I could make upstuff about like, oh, I did this
(45:07):
, that's close.
I mean I could do that, but Idon't see the point in spinning
it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, yeah, it's a waste of your time.
It's a waste of their time yeah,yeah, yeah, no, you're
absolutely right, that's kind oflike a pandora's box right
there and we were like, we'relike almost, almost to the top
of the hour.
So, but but I, I can, I cantell you, I can tell you this, I
can actually provide, um, somereal, some real value here.
Uh, I I can share the letterwith everybody, the email, the
(45:37):
email that got me an instant$10,000 raise.
That's great, yeah, and it'svery well written.
You know and this is before AIcould do this, but maybe you can
optimize it in AI but yeah,it's impossible to use this
email if you already have a job.
You have to be, like, at thebeginning before you accept an
offer.
You send this email and, yeah,you're impossible to use this
email if you already have a job.
You have to be at the beginningbefore you accept an offer.
(45:57):
You send this email and, yeah,you're going to get a raise.
I sent this email and I got acall from the HR manager.
She's like yeah, sure, fine,$10,000 more Went from $90,000
to $100,000.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Sure Like that.
Cool, yeah, that's great.
So there's a link to that I cansend you.
Okay, we can.
If we can, we can uh share thatin in uh show notes or
something, if we, if you cansend it to me, yeah, for sure,
what we do, you do.
We are, unfortunately I'm upagainst the clock here, uh, but
we're still gonna need to wrapup.
Ryan's been great.
I think this is some reallypractical stuff people can try.
(46:33):
It's some degreecounterintuitive, which I always
I like that.
I'm attracted to that kind ofstuff.
So, but if folks do want tokind of connect with you, learn
more, kind of see more soundlike you have some stuff where
you publish some of this what'sthe best way for them to do that
?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Upfrontopscom and LinkedIn is just my Ryan dash T
dash Murphy.
Linkedincom.
Slash in slash.
Ryan T Murphy, I'll respond.
Reach out, I'm a real person,all right.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Terrific.
Well, I appreciate it All right.
Well, thanks again, ryan.
It's been a fun conversation,thanks to our listeners and
viewers out there continuing tosupport us, as always.
We listeners and viewers outthere continuing to support us,
as always, we are interested inyour, your feedback and your
suggestions for topics, forguests, or if you want to be a
guest, you can always reach outto naomi mike.
I mean, we'd be happy to chatwith you about that until next
(47:25):
time.
Bye, everybody, thanks.
Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,flying solo today, Looking
forward to getting Naomi andMike back on at some time here
in the near future.
Joining me today is Ryan Murphyand Ryan, I know you've got the
T in there, so I don't know ifyou want that included or not.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, no, there are studies.
There are studies done where,if you use a middle initial,
people think you're smarter.
Ah, and, by the way, yeah, likeit's also a good trick if you
have your middle initial inLinkedIn, because then you can
catch the automated messages,because it shows it's like hello
, ryan T.
I'm like, oh, you didn't really.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I know some people
use the little emojis and stuffto do that Exactly.
Yeah, I know some people usethe little emojis and stuff to
do that.
Exactly, all right.
Well, so now you know Ryan TMurphy.
Ryan is the founder of UpfrontOps, a company transforming
revenue operations byintegrating sales, marketing and
customer service into aseamless, scalable system.
He has over 10 years ofexperience in RevOps and has led
(00:59):
multimillion-dollar marketinginitiatives, managed
cross-functional teams anddeveloped innovative automation
solutions that drive measurableresults.
Before that, he spearheadedenterprise-wide SaaS integration
, scaled marketing operationsfor a $40 million AR SaaS
company and implementedanalytics solutions for three
$35 million AR tech e-commercemarketplaces.
(01:21):
So, Ryan, thanks for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Happy to be here, Michael, and recently very
excited, I got a shout out fromHubSpot's blog too.
So pretty cool stuff.
Appreciate the intro.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Nice, all right.
Building a brand out there,right, definitely definitely All
right.
Well, good, well, we're glad tohave you.
I'm glad to have you.
I think this is a good one,given kind of the state of the
job market, which is what we'regoing to be talking about, and
we're going to get into somesuggestions you have that you've
learned over the years fromyour own experience and through
(01:58):
others.
But before we get to that, whatI'd like to do, I mean I gave
the thumbnail sketch of yourcareer journey.
I would love for you, I think,because, as I always think it's
interesting to hear people'sjourney, because I have yet to
find one that sounds likeanybody else's yeah, that's for
sure.
Walk through a little more ofyour career journey, like any
(02:20):
key decision points, inflectionpoints or people, right, that
had maybe an outsized impact onwhere your career went, and go
from there.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
For sure, let's kick it off.
So, graduated University ofHouston, from Texas, by the way.
University of Houston, yeehaw,oh, absolutely, howdy, howdy Go.
You know I can do the wholepodcast like this if it suits
your fancy, but no, no, I won't.
Um, yeah, people don't believeme when I say I'm from texas
because, uh, they're like, wait,you don't have an accent, I
(02:54):
don't, I don't get it all right.
But, um, lived, uh, 30 years intexas.
Graduated university, houston,electrical engineering, which is
that's a story for another day.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
But yeah, it's hard for us to be talking because I
have a.
I have a hate relationship withuniversity use and there's no
love.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, I do too, actually, that's yeah sure
that's another story, but yeah,let's see.
so then, um, first, right out ofcollege, got a job as an
electrical engineer nothing todo with marketing ops at all, um
, and they put me in engineering.
I was designing, I was I wasdesigning like modules that
(03:30):
would go into a rack on an oilrig in the middle of the gulf of
mexico.
I'm like like, who is thishelping?
Like I'm not, I'm not helpinganybody, right?
So so I got bored of that veryquickly and they um moved me to
process improvement.
And then, right which, we werein a management rotation program
, all the new hires right from Uof H, and my next rotation was
(03:55):
process improvement, where Ilearned Six Sigma.
I got like Six Sigma certified,all this stuff and implementing
initiatives for a 12,000-personglobal company, right, we are.
One project that we had to dowas do a real process
improvement, and there were 15sections of our proposal.
In the first, 13, we'redefining the problem, analyzing
(04:19):
the current state, and then only14, and 15 was like actually
talking about the solution thatwe proposed, that we proposed.
But, um, from there I kind ofrealized that I really like
operations and process and youknow things like that and, uh, I
I kind of just pursuedoperations roles, general
operations, um, went intomarketing, uh, also for a oil
(04:42):
and gas company startup and thiscompany I have to say the name
of it because it's part of thestory, otherwise I wouldn't name
drop.
But yeah it's called, it'scalled.
It was called.
It's not around anymore.
It was called Data Gumbo.
All right, they hired me as anapi engineer because they're
(05:05):
like oh we, we saw you had arolling gas experience and you,
you know, you know all that.
Um, that was fine, you know.
But one day, you know, we hadan open office experience like a
, like a.
We were kind of a um, one day Iwas listening to the sales team
talk about the uh web trafficnumbers and you know, for this,
for the ceo and founder to be ona video feature on bloomberg,
(05:27):
like all this amazing pr likelike this is taking off.
I mean, we got like, I thinkwhen they hired me, I was like
employee number 23 or something,and then they had just closed
series a.
So they, they were, they werecooking right.
So sales guys talk about the webtraffic numbers and I'm like
man, that is super low, that'ssuper low Like for for this
(05:48):
company, for all that buzz isgenerating.
And so I asked my manager.
I said, hey, do you mind if I,if I look into this, cause I uh,
I've been messing around withlike Google search console and
you know, uh, google analyticsand things like that.
So, anyway, I pull a googlesearch.
Uh yeah, google search consolereport on datagumbocom, which,
by the way, is a sas company,uses blockchain and all this
(06:11):
stuff for smart contracts.
Very, very like high-tech,modern web 3, all that, all that
stuff.
Right, pull the search consolereport.
And the number one term thatpopped up, or like basically
what you had to type into googleto get data gumbo to appear on
the front page of google, wasthe phrase best gumbo near me.
(06:33):
All right, so google wasthinking this whole time they
were a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Oh my goodness not a sass company, right, because
it's like nobody, nobody paidattention to this stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And I brought that to the CEO and he said he's like,
wow, I didn't know we neededwhat, you know how to do.
And then they brought in amarketing consultant and then we
chatted and then she saidsomething to me in passing.
She's like you know, you doreally well in marketing
operations, really well inmarketing operations.
And then, and then from there,you know, I just I just um
(07:11):
optimize my resume, which I'm soexcited to get into because, uh
, yeah, because I'll tell youwhat it was like before, before
my big journey, because you know, I I'm in New Jersey now.
I'm like right across from, uh,Manhattan.
I'm like just one ferry, ferry,right away.
If anyone is in New York wantsto meet up, that's super cool.
Right, I work from home, soanytime anyway.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So so you were at Data Gumbo and then that's right
.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right, right, right.
So we were talking aboutoptimizing my resume, right?
So when I moved from Texas, orwhen I moved to New Jersey,
which is where I live now, whenI was working at Data Gumbo
which, by the way, I moved forfamily, that's what brought me
up here, sure, up here, sure, um, the hr person in data gumbo
said, hey, if you leave texas,you no longer have a job.
(08:08):
I'm like well, why, why not?
And and she's like well, we,there's something about the tax
laws or something.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I I don't know the technicalities of it, maybe,
maybe you do, michael, with yourbackground I do know there's
states, different states aredifferent, so there might be
something to do with that andyeah, yeah, they're they.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
They couldn't keep me employed, so they're like if
you move to new jersey, youcan't, or like you, you, you
have to resign.
So I did, because I moved forfamily, right, I mean, I was
sure it was, it was not anoption, so that's a big, that's
a big inflection point there.
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I mean Imean, uh, you know, have one
daughter.
She's four and, uh, I moved tobe closer to her in in in New
(08:47):
Jersey.
Um, she was, she was like sixmonths old at the time, but now
she's four.
But, um, I'm like man, I amlike really kind of SOL here If
I'm moving across the countrywith no income, right, uh, in
the middle of a pandemic.
This is 2021.
(09:08):
All right, I'm like what, whatdo I do?
So, pulling from my previousstartup days where I had a, um,
uh, ed tech startup for fouryears totally different topic um
, I know how to use upworkpretty well to find really
talented people, which can be,which can be, you know, a topic
(09:29):
on its own, but but I, I lookedspecifically for an HR
consultant, um, that companieswould hire to for, for, for,
like her, to write their jobdescriptions or something like
that.
So she was the HR consultant,told her my, my story and she
said, yeah, I'm definitely goingto help you Name which, which,
by the way, she, she's her ownindependent contractor and does
(09:51):
this full-time named, uh, shandyTucker.
So this, this, I learned a lotfrom her.
I learned a lot from otherother places and I'm kind of
kind of um uh, michael what'sthe word where you uh gather a
bunch of information?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
no, you're just like you're sharing what you've
learned across the way.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's the word.
So curated stuff today, reallyexciting.
So one of the biggest mistakesI was making, uh, first, which I
met.
I met Chandy.
We talked every day, we.
She spent six months workingwith me.
We two hours on the phone everyweek for six months while I was
getting settled in New Jerseyand we were, you know, and I was
(10:35):
like Chandy, I need to, I needto find a job like very quickly,
cause I already signed a leasein New Jersey.
I can't, you know, most peoplewould find that to be backwards,
right Like I signed a leasebefore I had income anyway,
because I I verified my incomewith the old job.
Right, so so you know anyway, Iwas doing those one click apply
jobs which everyone I talked tohas like no luck with those.
(10:58):
Yeah, I would click on ahundred of them and get zero,
like literally zero of anything,like no, no one would respond,
um, and now that's all I use isthose one click apply and I'll
just tell you the.
I'll tell you the outcome andthen we'll go into how.
(11:19):
You know, like, how did it?
I can now click with mycriteria that that that I that I
learned with my criteria.
I can click six one click applyjobs and get three interviews.
All right, so that's aninsanely insane improvement
(11:39):
right From from before.
So so let me go through thefirst first part, first tips.
So so let me go through thefirst first part, first tips.
What I did, that was soimportant, was I only applied
for the same job title.
Why is that important?
Because you're someone's resume.
They run it through somethingcalled an ATS, which I know,
(12:00):
michael, you know all about Yep,absolutely, absolutely, and and
I've actually never logged intothem, I know, I know you've had
teams experience with, withthat kind of stuff, with what
your background is, um, but withthat, with the ATS running the
(12:20):
show, especially now with AI andthings like that.
Um, you have, you have to belike, you have to be perfect for
the role.
You don't have to be theperfect candidate Um, in a way
you do, which I'll get into butbut basically the first, the
first one really is to make sureyour resume can stand up to the
(12:44):
fire that the ATS is going tothrow at it.
And how do we do that?
So, if you're applying formarketing manager, if that's the
job you want marketing manager,um, or, more relevant, if the
job you want is marketing opsmanager, then you this is not
about you applying to demand genmanager or social media manager
(13:08):
or email marketing manager.
Those are two.
Those are totally differentroles in the eyes of an ATS,
right?
So you know the.
The classic advice or whatever,which I don't do, is that
they're like oh, customize yourresume for every single job, no
one has time for that.
Like, I didn't have time forthat, I needed to find a job
(13:28):
immediately.
So I found the one job titlethat I wanted first.
Then I used a tool calledJobscanco Love it, love it, love
it, love it, jobscanco.
I think it's like 40 bucks amonth or something If you're, if
you're looking for a new role.
It's like absolutely essentialthat that that uses tool,
(13:49):
because it's essentially an ATSthat you can use as the
candidate.
Okay, so what you do with it isyou, side by side, you paste
your resume on the left, currentresume Right, your current
resume on the left, and youpaste the job description on the
right.
Yep, and then it, it, it doesits magic and tells you in a
(14:12):
percentage uh, how, how many, uh, what percentage likelihood
you're going to get that jobbased on the resume you
currently have.
Okay, oh, interesting, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Does it give you, does it give you feedback on
what to change?
Then, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Okay, yep, it'll say oh, you use the word SaaS four
times and you should use it sixtimes Like.
It gets a really granular withthat.
And so when I first uploaded myresume for marketing operations
manager and I pasted amarketing operations manager job
description, when I got off ofLinkedIn copy to paste Right, um
, my score was like 22 out of ahundred.
(14:48):
It was like there, no wonder Iwas clicking a hundred, one
click applies and gettingnothing.
Because, like, the ATS was like, okay, this guy's 22 out of a
hundred.
Obviously, we're not going totalk to him, all right.
So once I ran it through jobscan, job scanco, and did all
(15:12):
the things it was asking me todo, um, I got my score from like
, like with my resume because I,I would, I would move words
around, you know, use synonymsthat would match the job, the
job description, and my scoreeventually went from like 22 or
something to like and my scoreeventually went from like 22 or
something to like 60 or 70 outof a hundred, which is more than
enough to like.
You know, uh, put it inproduction, right.
So, um, that is the first andactually the most important
(15:35):
thing is is is that you got tostand, you got to like be ATS
ready, and a lot of people arenot ATS ready.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Well, it's interesting because this is
consistent with advice that II've heard and I've shared with
people who are like when I talkto people who are on job hunt
and they want help, like thenetworking whatever is um, get
as specific as you can aboutwhat you're looking for, right
and so this takes it, I think,another level, kind of another
click deeper, in that not onlyare you being really specific
(16:04):
about the jobs or the titlesthat you look for, but you're
then tailoring.
If I've got this right, asingle resume Right To.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
A single job title.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right, a single job title that you hope and expect
will have similar jobdescriptions Right, right right,
right, and usually, and now Imean what's you know?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
what's so interesting is that I have a blog on
upfrontopscom and one of themost popular blog posts is
called roles andresponsibilities of a marketing
ops manager and according to myanalytics, that blog post has
the longest engagement time.
So I can reasonably concludethat HR managers are looking at
my blog post to build their jobdescription, which is wild to me
(16:52):
to assume that 80, 90% of thecompanies with the same job
title are going to have very,very similar job descriptions.
Sure, which, which I think, Ithink, michael you, you would
know a lot better than I wouldon that.
On that end of things, I think,certainly at um.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I think when you it might vary more as you get to
like director and above levels,because that's where you might
start seeing things like notalways do marketing ops leaders
have things like.
You know you're managing thebudget like kind of in a chief
of staff way.
You're managing the marketingbudget overall right, which is
(17:30):
I've had in a director, seniordirector level role before, but
not always right.
So there's like but those are.
I mean, that's a relativelyminor thing that we, or at least
it's an important thing from anactual job, but um, uh, it's,
it's important for um, like theperson who's going for it, but
(17:52):
from a job description it's likeone bullet point maybe.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, and I think I think that's really the dividing
line.
I think you really hit onsomething great is that.
I think that and please correctme if I'm wrong but the the
really the dividing line betweenmanager and director is really
that, that budget piece.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You think that's accurate well, and I'm
specifically talking about notjust managing a budget like
managing my own budget.
I'm talking about managing thefull marketing budget, like
being really, you know, theright hand for the CMO when it
comes to not just operations andtechnology, but also like
managing the budget.
In my experience and I don'tthink most marketers who might
(18:34):
be listening to this woulddisagree, like most marketers
I've met are not very good atmanaging a budget, um, and
there's some of that is to beexpected, like I, I I recognize
that in marketing ops, when I'mmanaging managing my budget, I
may have a big dollar amount, um, but relatively few
transactions, right.
You're paying, paying for yourright market automation platform
(18:57):
once a year.
You do a lot of yearly stuff,maybe a couple of monthly things
, whereas if you're an eventmanager event marketing manager,
field marketing manager andyou're running events, you've
got dozens and dozens of smalltransactions happening all the
time for doing multiple events,right.
So just keeping up with theadministrative part of it is a
(19:20):
different beast, but at the sametime, I still find that they're
generally not great at managinga budget.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, um, would it actually?
You know what I just realized?
Would it be helpful to list allthe five tips?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, while we do that, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Okay, so the first one we covered, actually I think
the first two we used use jobscan.
Right, like you gotta use jobscan.
There's like there's no otherway.
And then the second one is onlyapply to the job title that you
optimize that resume for.
If you wanna be social media,if you want to apply to social
(19:59):
media manager, marketing manager, demand manager, you got to
have three resumes, but youdon't have to have a resume for
every single company.
That's just that's just silly.
And then the third thing, whichis um, uh, kind of kind of not
very well known.
This is really where it getskind of like insider.
In my opinion Never apply,never apply to anything over 24
(20:23):
hours old.
We'll go into that one.
That's really really, reallyinteresting to me.
When I learned that, I was likeWhoa.
Now another one controversialdon't apply to jobs that require
cover letters.
I'm like I'm not, I'm not goingto do it, because I know
there's a lot of buzz right nowon LinkedIn where there's like
oh, I don't accept candidateswho use an AI for a cover letter
(20:44):
, which is just like why, why,why, in the first place anyway?
And then the fifth one is onlyapply to jobs that allow you to
message the recruiter directlyin the job post.
It'll.
It'll show their LinkedInprofile, their photo, and you
can click on it.
And then you know, um, I alwaysconnect with them and I'll go,
(21:05):
I'll go through.
I'll go through the details onthat too.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
So yeah, yeah, so this is um, I think just to make
sure, like this is you'rethinking for jobs and as opposed
to other job boards.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, like, like, like, zip recruiter I.
If you want help on ziprecruiter, I got nothing for you
.
Yeah, for sure, I mean, butyeah for LinkedIn.
Oh, and then also I got a.
I got a bonus tip.
I got a.
I got a six bonus.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Oh, all right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So the sixth one is never applied to jobs with more
than 10, uh, applicants.
Already you can see that at thetop of the job post.
Um, that's why.
That's why I only go to oneclick apply jobs now, because
one click apply jobs remain inLinkedIn, as opposed to an apply
(21:54):
button that takes you to adifferent website.
Right that?
So the one click apply stays inLinkedIn and then they can.
They can see how manyapplicants there are and and and
.
If you know all that there's,there's a lot more data when you
do the one click applies.
That really helps you as acandidate looking for an
obstacle.
So, less than so, the.
So my filter criteria is thisless than 24 hours old, which is
(22:16):
super interesting to me, thatLinkedIn has that specific
filter.
Yeah, Less than 24 hours old.
It's in the more filters area.
It's not.
It's not right.
Right in front of you.
Um, you got to dig, but it'sworth it.
Less than 24 hours old.
Less than 10 applicants.
No cover letter requirement.
Um-click apply and able tomessage the job poster.
(22:41):
Right, if you follow all thosethings, you are going to get a
50% click-to-interview rate.
Interesting.
I've been doing it since 2021.
It works every time.
It's absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's great, it's it works every time.
It's absolutely incredible.
That's that's great.
So this is like right off thetop right.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
That cuts out a whole bunch of potential jobs if you
limit it, for sure okay, likeI'll see a, I'll see a job post,
like on my phone, I'll get,I'll get alerts and stuff and um
, I'll.
You know, oh, oh, uh, stripe ishiring a new marketing ops
manager and I click and it wasposted literally minutes ago and
there's like hundreds ofapplicants already.
I'm like nope, next, like it'sjust, you're never going to.
(23:26):
Because, okay, now I think wecan go into the.
We really went in depth withthat, with that optimizing your
resume and the ATS one.
Do you want me to go in depthinto the, the psychology of the,
of the?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
of the HR person.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know youand I talked about this and I
think it'll be interesting tohear, like the the why and I.
And then maybe I have a reallyspecific question about the 24
hour one, like what, what aboutstuff that gets posted on late,
late on?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
a Friday or over the weekend, Right?
Does it 24 hours still apply,or is it?
I mean, I think it, I think itwould Um, because I say that,
because I um, I don't see a lotof job posts on Fridays, you
know, I um it's.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
there's someone that I see.
I see on the weekends for sure.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Fridays.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I mean I, I, I think this is all anecdotal, like I'm
I'm trying to yeah, yeah,remember sure it also.
Well, we can get to get to thenext one I have.
I have a question about the umone click apply.
But we can get to that when weget there, for sure.
For sure?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
so, um, yeah, 24 hour rule is so is so important
because what's so interesting tome is that linkedin has filters
like how long ago it was posted, and the filters say option one
is anytime, option two is likea week ago and then option three
is less than 24 hours ago.
So like they, they, they, theykind of know.
So the reason why this 24 hourrule is so important is because,
(24:54):
if you think about it from theother side of the table, you're
the one looking for a candidateto do some job, because your
boss has asked you to.
You know, write a job post andit's like your job to find the
best person.
So you just spent so longgetting the perfect job
description and doing all yourresearch, going to the
(25:14):
upfrontopscom blog to get allthe things you need to put in
the job post.
Obviously, you've made thisperfect job description and you
post it and think about it likeposting anything else on social
media.
You're going to checkimmediately if it's doing well,
if it's getting a lot of likes,a lot of attention.
(25:34):
Right, it's, it's that, it'sthat instant um it's a
gratification yeah, yeah, it's a.
Yeah, like the, it's a dopamineor whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
And so you're, you're, if youimagine yourself in the job
poster shoes, like they're,they're like checking every
minute, right, if somebody hasapplied to their job.
And that's why, that's why umalso, and like it applies to me
(25:57):
too, right, I mean, I, I postjobs for like little contractor
roles for um upfront opscom,like all the time, and I'm I'm
constantly checking in the first24 hours of like all right,
who's applied to this, who'sapplied to this?
Now, the 10 applicant role isanother really important thing,
because once you have 10 peoplethat are interested, you're like
(26:21):
, you're like overwhelmed atthat point as an HR person.
You're like you know, and andyou know, I've never been, I've,
I've, I've never been an HR uhrep, but this is just kind of it
seems.
It seems clear to me that thatthis is just like kind of
psychology related in some way.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Um, just to just to see if, like, your hard work
paid off because you found theperfect candidate and the
applied immediately, or he orshe applied immediately, um, and
that's that's why, that's whythat's that's so important, and
then so, yeah, I mean, I suspectjust kind of going into the
psychology part of it is like itfeels like there's something
like the paradox of choice thatcomes into play, right, when I
(27:05):
mean, if you've ever been to arestaurant and their menu is 10
items, right, You're like, oh,I'll just pick number seven,
Like that one looks like thebest one.
You're not going to like, youjust know there's not.
But if you have a menu that hasa hundred items, it's like
really fucking hard, right, itreally is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
It's overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And so, uh, I I imagine there's something
related to that I also it's.
It's interesting, I mean and ifI mean because today, I mean I
think many of our listenerswould, especially if they're out
there looking right, they'llsee, like you did.
Right, you described a post,something got posted and within
minutes, if not, you know,within a day, within minutes,
(27:46):
sometimes within hours, you knowthere are 100 plus applicants,
which is sort of astounding tome, because the likelihood that
there are actually 100 people ormore who actually qualify for
that particular job yes, I knowthere are a lot of people out on
the market looking, so mayberight now that is true.
At the same time, I think thisis a good example of why, the
(28:11):
more specific you can get, knowwhere you can tailor what you're
doing to something specific andreally stand out, the better
off you're going to be.
Um, because I know on the otherside, like where I've been the
recipient, usually there's atalent acquisition, an HR person
doing initial screening, but Ivery often find that they, um,
(28:32):
they don't really understandthese kinds of roles very well,
so it's hard for them to it'shard for them to do the
screening effectively and theyeither screen out people who
they think don't match becausethe ATS says something, or
they're too loose, so they sendpeople who are like I look at it
and I'm going like I don't know, not a fit, right, I can do
that pretty quickly, but I tendto spend a lot of time looking
(28:56):
at myself and there it's veryobviously like people are just
posting on just about anythingthat seems close to anything
that they might've done at anypoint in their life or career
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Exactly Now.
Now, I know that, I know that,um, I know that you had asked me
previously about how howimportant is it to optimize
LinkedIn profile and um, superand super important, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You like I'm going to come back to this.
So we didn't cover the.
So the 24-hour rule, right?
All right, somebody's trying toget a hold of you, so I get the
no cover letters thing.
The two that I think quicklywill end up dropping the number
(29:46):
of potential jobs quickly arethe one click apply and the be
able to message the job poster.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Right, it does narrow it down a lot for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, because I mean, again anecdotally, it feels
like the vast majority of rolesthat I have seen historically
posted on LinkedIn I don't knowwhat the percentage is, I'm
going to guess it's 90 pluspercent actually go to whatever
that company's careers site isright.
Job posting site yeah, I mean,I would agree with that.
(30:20):
And then I think I've seen morepeople posting jobs where
there's actually somebody who's,you know, the poster or the
hiring team.
I think LinkedIn now is likewho's the hiring team, but still
seems like a pretty significantminority.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
So, um, yeah, I mean, if there's thousands of roles
out there, like with thiscriteria, you you might be lucky
to come back with 15, butyou're going to get, like, if
you do all the, you do all thethings in which which, by the
way, this is super important away, a way to make sure you get
that that interview request isthe re like.
(30:55):
Let me go into a second likefor for a second, why it's so
important to, um, uh, be able tomessage a job poster, because
this is this, is it?
This is it when you click attheir pro, when you click
through to their profile and youclick through to their profile,
you can connect with them.
A lot of people just recklesslyhit connect and then they move
(31:18):
on to the next one.
That's no, no, no, You're notdone yet, You're not done yet.
Always, always, always, always,add a note to the connection
request.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And there are so this is how you avoid having to have
a premium subscription toLinkedIn.
Exactly, you don't need premium.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Exactly.
And so you need three thingsyou need the exact and I'm
talking exact job title in thisconnection, request, like, if it
says director comma, marketingops, and demand, like you're
right, the entire thing word forword, copy and paste, yeah,
yeah, uh, so you need the job.
So he's like hey, um, I don'tknow.
(32:00):
Hey, suzy, uh, I just I this ismy note, by the way this, like
this, is what I would write hey,suzy, uh, I just saw you posted
a job.
Um, I just saw you posted a anopen role for director comma,
marketing ops, and I believe,like, literally, steal this.
(32:20):
I believe I'm the idealcandidate because, and then,
right after that, you're goingto literally go to the job
description and copy and pasteone of the first things that you
see in under responsibilities.
I believe I'm an ideal candidatebecause I streamline CRM
systems, excited to connect, andyou leave your cell phone
(32:43):
number, got it.
So, so they know you're like areal person.
Okay, um, I've never had arecruiter call my cell phone, uh
, from that, but, but, but I'vehad a lot of recruiters message
me back after I leave that note.
So, so, hey, susie, I saw youposted an open role for director
called marketing ops.
I believe I'm an idealcandidate because, uh, I've
streamlined, like literally copyand paste, streamline CRM
(33:04):
systems and set up Marketo, uh,and looking forward to connect
uh Ryan and then sell colon, andusually that is like right at
the character limit when you dothat Cause it's 300, I think is
the for sure, yeah, and so itmight take a little bit of a
little bit of massaging, but butuh, but you can definitely, you
(33:26):
can definitely fit all that inthere, that's like a that's like
a template, that's so important.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, cause that's so important.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, because it opens the conversation.
I mean, you already have anedge.
You already have an edge Ifyou're opening the conversation
with the HR person.
No one else is doing this.
I mean well, except for now,because now a ton of people are
going to hear this podcastno-transcript, at least at that
(34:03):
point in my career.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
One of the things I learned is you are already in a
situation like this.
If you were willing to just askpeople for something and being
comfortable with them saying noor just ignoring it right.
Ask people for something andbeing comfortable with them
saying no or just ignoring itright, then you're already ahead
of 90 of the people becausethey are too scared to even take
that step yeah, absolutely, umand yeah or for sure.
(34:26):
Yeah, they are comfortable withit.
They don't want to be botheredlike.
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
There's lots of good reasons why people are don't
want to do it now, now, realquick, I'll throw this in um, I
I kind of glossed over this alittle bit, but, but, uh, but
you, when we're, when we'retalking about your linkedin
profile, you, yeah, youdefinitely have to optimize it,
but you have to optimize it.
But, uh, very conveniently, jobscan has a linkedin section that
(34:49):
will do the same thing that itdid to your resume so so, just
just just let job scan handleall that, and you'll be golden
with that stuff um, do you know,if I know you talked about job
scan a couple of times here.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Um, I think I've heard there also some, and I
don't know any specifically, butI've heard there are some,
maybe custom gpts or other aikinds of tools that do similar
things.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So yeah, I mean it's possible.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I I know that, I know you know what you've used and
you like it and it's beensuccessful, right?
Yeah, I mean, it's possible, I,I know that, I know you.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Just, you know what you've used and you like it has
been successful, right, yeah, Imean, I mean I, I, I'm, I'm like
super, super familiar with ai,make ai models from scratch, uh,
depending on the uh, dependingon the occasion.
And you know, this is, this ismore than just like a generic gT
output or even a specializedGPT output.
This actually goes through andlike counts all the words and
(35:39):
like you know, you say this andthey say that and you got to say
this and um, it goes it likechecks boxes for, like, soft
skills and and you know all that.
It's, it's, it's designed, it'sit's, you know, purpose built
for this task.
So so, um, I guess know, I'venever, I've never like okay I've
never questioned me paying forit, and it was, you know well
(36:01):
and I'm not even saying like Ithink.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I mean I've seen and heard at least people posting
about ai tools that do thingssimilar to this yeah not all of
them are free, or the free leveldoesn't really do what you need
.
So it's not about the cost, Ithink, from that standpoint.
But anyway, with that I meanyou've got one that works
Curious on.
So we've got these sort of five, six things that you say work
(36:29):
well.
Have you done any kind ofexperimentation where you go
like I'm actually going to goahead and follow all the rules
except for the limit of 10 10applicants?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
right, and I'm gonna like go, you know, apply to
something that has 25 or 50people already yeah, I mean, I
mean I I stretch it a bit if I'm, if I find one that's like 13
or 14 or 15, I'll still apply,if I'm like really strong for
the role, um, but but if it onceit gets into like the, the, the
(37:02):
twenties and thirties andforties, like you don't have a
shot, you just don't, causethey're already talking to the
first 20 people.
They've already set upinterviews with them.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Right, so so yeah, and then maybe a similar one
like what if it's been more than24 hours, but you see there's
only seven applicants, that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
That's okay, because it means that, I would think, in
my opinion, it suggests thatthere's not a lot of good
candidates or not a lot ofinterest in the role, which,
yeah, I mean, I think.
Actually, by the way, I didn'teven, I didn't even mention this
.
Linkedin has a filter for thistoo under 10 applicants.
(37:40):
So this is this is like a superlike somebody thought of this
which is which is superinteresting.
Yeah and um, but do you, do youwant, do I?
I have this, I have this ideafor the interview.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Do you want me to?
Do you want to go into that?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
so like how like.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
So now you get the interview and what do you?
How do you handle that?
Sure, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
This is the most important thing.
It is so important, uh, becauseif, without this, you're,
you're, you're, you're in badshape.
Um, a lot of times, mostlyevery time, I know what happened
with me.
When you get an interview phonecall, that screening call,
cause that's the first step.
You know there's a screeningcall, you listen to them, ask
(38:24):
you questions common, commoncourtesy, common etiquette you
let the, let the interviewer askyou questions as the candidate,
I don't do that, and that'ssuper important for one topic,
and that is salary.
If you wait until they ask youwhat are your salary
(38:46):
expectations, you lost, youalready lost.
You're going to get the minimumauthorized amount and the HR
rep is going to have a winbecause they got you super,
super cheap.
All right, so I beat him to it.
I beat him to it.
And how do I do that?
(39:07):
One of the first things I sayoh hey, how's it going?
I'm so glad you called me.
Yeah, um, tell me about, tell meabout your background, or like
what to tell me about yourself,or like like whatever.
Oh, yeah, absolutely Happy toreal, real quick, though, real
quick, sorry.
Well, you don't have to saysorry, I'm just real quick, I
didn't see.
I say this word for word, wordfor word, real quick.
(39:29):
I didn't see an authorizedbudget range for this role.
Do you happen to have thatinformation?
That's it.
I've had someone tell me oh,actually I don't know, you don't
know, that's not true.
And so when they said I don'tknow, I literally was just like
(39:53):
silent.
I'm like there's no fucking way, you don't know Like you,
you're the HR person, like comeon, and then it was silent for
like five seconds.
They're like uh, yeah, I thinkit's 90 to 110 a year.
Okay, thanks, anyway, aboutmyself, about my background, and
then I'll just continue withthe interview.
And, um, yeah, you got to beathim to that, to that question,
(40:14):
because you could be seriouslyundervaluing yourself.
If you know, the common trap islike oh, what'd you make it
your last job?
Oh, I made 90.
Great, we'll pay you 92 whenthey were authorized to pay you
like 140,.
You know like you're right.
You know, I know that, um,which, while we're on this topic
(40:34):
, I, I had a, um had a.
It was long, long ago before Iknew Marketo.
Um, I, I had only had HubSpotexperience and I had applied to
a very large tech company thatis very well known.
But I won't, I won't name, dropthem Um billion billion dollar
tech company, easy, easy, andthe role was marketing
(40:55):
operations manager.
And the salary which?
Because I'd use that technique,I?
I said, well, what's theauthorized budget range for this
?
They said, they said we'reprepared to start negotiations
at 160 000 a year.
This was like three years ago,four years ago, five, five years
ago.
Which is like what, right, thatwas that for a manager.
(41:18):
You know dearly that that's,that's pretty dang good.
And then, and then there waslike a, like a $50,000 stock
options, like $10,000 signingbonus, whatever, whatever.
It was sweet, all right.
Now they said, do you knowMarketo?
And by at this time, it was likelike four or five years ago, I
didn't, I didn't, and I washonest, it was very honest and I
(41:41):
said, um, I I've never usedMarketo, but, um, I, you, I'm a,
I'm, I have all thesecertifications in HubSpot and,
like, I've seen YouTube videos,it's like almost the same thing.
Guess who didn't get a call back?
Yeah, can't say that, you justcan't like that, because, like
you, like you said beforemichael, like, um, you know,
(42:02):
sometimes these people postingthese roles, especially on the
screening call before you get toa hiring manager, like they
don't really know the technicalend, like you were saying, and
so they're just listening to see.
If you check off the boxes onthe job description, right, and
if you don't, okay, on to thenext one.
We have a hundred thousandpeople who applied for this
thing, yeah, on to the next.
(42:24):
You know, so you know?
Read between the lines on thatone, I guess I'm not.
I'm not going to tell you to doanything that's against your
ethics or whatever, but no, I Imean I would.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
You'd never want to.
I mean, this is the danger ofusing some of these tools to
redo your resume, especiallylike I've seen and heard people
who've done that with.
Well, I've seen it in just ingeneral, with chat gpt, for
example, where it generatesstuff that is just made up right
oh, totally it right.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
It told me the other day that HubSpot had a venue
management module.
No it doesn't Anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So if you I mean you you want to be cautious, I mean
you, uh, and you are when, when,when, when it comes to shove
and they really dig into, likeuh, if you say you have Marketoo
experience, but you don't like,you've only maybe you've seen
it, the logo, and you've loggedinto a script, you know great, I
mean be honest about it.
(43:23):
But yeah, I mean you know, tellthe story about how what you've
done would be a way that you,like you knows.
You know that you would then beable to quickly learn this
platform and why?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
an example ideally an example of how you did
something similar with yeah, andI find I find that hiring, like
screening calls and hiringmanagers, they really love the
phrase hit the ground running,they really love that.
It's like, oh yeah, ummarquetto, absolutely love
marquetto, I can definitely hitthe ground running.
I mean, you didn't lie.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, smart hiring manager will ask tell me about
your experience right.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, it's tough, it's a tough one, it's really
tough.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I mean, I think the key, the thing about asking the
question about compensationrange or other key things that
are, I would say, another goodexample of something is, I think
um, I think this isparticularly true of SAS
companies is they they they tendto have a hard, a fairly hard
(44:29):
requirement when they hireexperienced people that they
have experience with SAScompanies.
Now do I think that that's asmart thing to do, because you
get groups in?
I don't know that thatnecessarily makes sense.
I understand why they do it, sothat people can hit the ground
running right.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
At the same time, the quicker you can find out.
Is there some sort of hardrequirement that I absolutely
just am not going to meet?
The better right.
So the comp range is not onethat I'm willing to accept.
Yeah right if there's ifthey're just going to say you
have to have sass experience,you can't like.
I like, like I could make upstuff about like, oh, I did this
(45:07):
, that's close.
I mean I could do that, but Idon't see the point in spinning
it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, yeah, it's a waste of your time.
It's a waste of their time yeah,yeah, yeah, no, you're
absolutely right, that's kind oflike a pandora's box right
there and we were like, we'relike almost, almost to the top
of the hour.
So, but but I, I can, I cantell you, I can tell you this, I
can actually provide, um, somereal, some real value here.
Uh, I I can share the letterwith everybody, the email, the
(45:37):
email that got me an instant$10,000 raise.
That's great, yeah, and it'svery well written.
You know and this is before AIcould do this, but maybe you can
optimize it in AI but yeah,it's impossible to use this
email if you already have a job.
You have to be, like, at thebeginning before you accept an
offer.
You send this email and, yeah,you're impossible to use this
email if you already have a job.
You have to be at the beginningbefore you accept an offer.
(45:57):
You send this email and, yeah,you're going to get a raise.
I sent this email and I got acall from the HR manager.
She's like yeah, sure, fine,$10,000 more Went from $90,000
to $100,000.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Sure Like that.
Cool, yeah, that's great.
So there's a link to that I cansend you.
Okay, we can.
If we can, we can uh share thatin in uh show notes or
something, if we, if you cansend it to me, yeah, for sure,
what we do, you do.
We are, unfortunately I'm upagainst the clock here, uh, but
we're still gonna need to wrapup.
Ryan's been great.
I think this is some reallypractical stuff people can try.
(46:33):
It's some degreecounterintuitive, which I always
I like that.
I'm attracted to that kind ofstuff.
So, but if folks do want tokind of connect with you, learn
more, kind of see more soundlike you have some stuff where
you publish some of this what'sthe best way for them to do that
?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Upfrontopscom and LinkedIn is just my Ryan dash T
dash Murphy.
Linkedincom.
Slash in slash.
Ryan T Murphy, I'll respond.
Reach out, I'm a real person,all right.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Terrific.
Well, I appreciate it All right.
Well, thanks again, ryan.
It's been a fun conversation,thanks to our listeners and
viewers out there continuing tosupport us, as always.
We listeners and viewers outthere continuing to support us,
as always, we are interested inyour, your feedback and your
suggestions for topics, forguests, or if you want to be a
guest, you can always reach outto naomi mike.
I mean, we'd be happy to chatwith you about that until next
(47:25):
time.
Bye, everybody, thanks.
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