August 25, 2024 • 33 mins
What if you felt unworthy of love despite a steadfast belief in faith? Charles takes us on an emotional journey through his early life experiences, revealing how witnessing domestic violence and grappling with gender identity deeply impacted his sense of self and spirituality. His story is one of resilience, finding solace in faith, and ultimately realizing God's unwavering love and protection. From feeling unworthy to embracing divine purpose, Charles's heartfelt recount of his childhood trauma and faith is profoundly moving.
Charles's narrative doesn't stop at childhood trauma; it expands into his adult years, where he faced suicidal thoughts, endured a painful divorce, and experienced immense grief. A life-changing intervention from a family member and a friendship with a troubled woman further shapes his journey. Her tragic death becomes a catalyst for Charles's plea for spiritual rescue, leading to a transformative journey with a biblical counselor. This chapter of his life is a powerful testimony to the healing and transformation that can come from unwavering support and a deepening faith.
The episode also highlights the impact of sharing personal stories within the church and the transformative power of testimonies. Charles is the founder and executive director of Gramazin, which is Amazing Grace backwards. Join us for this episode filled with hope, resilience, and the inspiring power of faith as Charles's story demonstrates the profound impact of personal and spiritual growth.
Connect with Charles, his ministry, & the book “The Two Souls of Heidi Lonsberry”:
https://www.gramazin.com
Listen to the podcast here:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1882033
https://generationstogenerations.com/podcast
ordinarypeoplestories@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/ordinarypeoplestory
https://www.instagram.com/ordinarypeopleextraordinary/
X: @storiesextra
Any advice should be confirmed with a qualified professional.
All rights reserved: Ordinary People Extraordinary Things
Stories shared by guests may not always be shared views of OPET.
Being a guest does not mean OPET approves of every decision or action in the guests' life.
We all have a story, all of us, share your story. You don't have to have the perfect answer or the perfect life - share what Jesus is doing in your life. This is an easy, real way to witness & share your testimony.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm so thankful you're here listening to
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings.
I am praying over this podcastthat it would be impactful and
insightful for you.
Please let me know what partreally resonated with you.
We are so thankful that you aregetting the word out about
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings.
Thank you for making thispodcast what it is today.
(00:24):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Well, welcome to OrdinaryPeople Extraordinary Things.
I am here with Charles.
Charles, thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I am so pleased to be with you, Nancy.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Well, if anyone doesn't know who you are, can
you give three words or phrasesto describe yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
doesn't know who you are.
Can you give three words orphrases to describe yourself?
Well, one word that comes tomind is I'm unworthy of all of
the goodness that I havereceived from God, and I'm so
grateful for his greatgenerosity.
I'm a recipient of God'samazing grace and mercy.
My sins have been forgiven bywhat Christ did on the cross.
And the third thing, Nancy, isI feel very joyful and thankful
(01:06):
for what Christ has done in mylife.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Those are all good.
Those are all really good.
Were you raised in the church?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I grew up outside of Philadelphia in a very
evangelical church.
You might even consider it,perhaps, a fundamentalist church
.
My parents sent me to Sundayschool, to VBS.
We attended two services everySunday, the morning and the
evening, and so I grew up bathedin the evangelical culture.
(01:37):
I even was sent to a prettyreputable Christian school and
was there throughout my middleschool and high school years.
So I grew up with the gospel, Igrew up with good doctrine and
yet, nancy it's interesting Ireally didn't believe God loved
me, despite all of that.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
You believed in God.
You just didn't believe heloved you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I actually believed in the gospel, but I somehow
thought it applied to everybodyelse but me, so that for some
reason God had he well, actuallythere is a reason which we'll
talk about but I thought God hadrejected me, and so the gospel
really didn't give me the hopethat it gave everybody else
(02:24):
around me.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
You said that there was a reason for that.
Can you share that?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
When I was three years old it was like I'll give
away my age, nancy.
It was about 1964, 65.
I witnessed my father beatingmy sister and I can still close
my eyes and hear that to thisday.
And in that same evening myfather pushed my mother out of
(02:51):
the bedroom and I came to theconclusion, as a three to
four-year-old toddler, that Ididn't want to be like my dad.
I saw him as a brute.
I saw him.
You know, nobody that I wantedto emulate.
And you know, even as a toddler, I'm coming to this conclusion
and I do want to say that myfather is with the lord and he
(03:14):
was a humble man.
I know he regretted whathappened that day and I'm so
grateful that he was my dad andI have his bible upstairs and I
treasure it.
And, nancy, what's reallywonderful is I have his written
test.
So I have no doubt that I'mgoing to see my father again and
he's perfect now that he's withthe Lord.
(03:35):
But that did happen and again Iwas saying as a three to four
year old, I really don't want tobe a guy like that.
And then my mother chose to sayat the time again, I'm a three
to four year old.
I'm very impressionable.
She said Well, you're going togrow up to be just like your dad
, and it was almost like a curse.
You know, because I was born aboy, I'm going to be a bad
(03:58):
person and that's.
That's kind of the deduction Icame to as a toddler, and that's
kind of the deduction I came toas a toddler.
Now I want to say again for mymom oh my goodness, she was a
great woman of faith the last 20, 30 years of her life.
I know that my ministry is nowdoing well because of my
mother's prayers and her supportand sending me Bible verses and
(04:19):
stuff.
So again, I'm not here toderide my parents, but I'm just
saying factually this happened.
So I walked away from thatwhole experience thinking you
know what my male gender was amoral failure.
So, nancy, what began then wasa really a lifetime of, you know
(04:43):
, envy of 50% of the population,of disappointment that I had
not been born in a different way.
And, nancy, I struggled withthat through elementary school.
I've thought about it thatthose thoughts were there in
kindergarten when I startedinteracting with other girls in
the class.
But you know what, nancy, godprotected me and I think he knew
(05:05):
I know he knew all along that Iwould now be in ministry many
decades later and he protectedme and he gave me, even as a
young child, this understandingthat you can never become a girl
, right, you never can become afemale.
That's impossible.
(05:27):
And so I never went down.
I guess you would now say it intoday's current events.
I never went down thetransgender path.
You know I never tried to put onmakeup and dresses, but it was
something in my mind that Iwould just imagine different
life scenarios, differentfantasies, where I had been born
female and therefore I would bemore acceptable, right.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You wouldn't have these kind of terrible traits
that you felt your dad had andthat you were cursed to also
have.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, that is well said, that's exactly right, okay
, so anyways, I had thesefantasies with me throughout
most of my life.
Well, that is well said, that'sexactly right.
So, anyways, I had thesefantasies with me throughout
most of my life.
I also struggled when I becamean adult and started having a
career.
I struggled with feelings offailure as a man because I was
(06:24):
underachieving.
I look at my other guy friendsand they're making, you know,
top dollar and they got allthese great positions and I I
felt I was not in really goodjobs that I was really proud of,
and so that just reinforcedyou're a failure as a man.
You're a failure as a man.
Your boy wouldn't have beengreat if you had been born
differently.
Boy, wouldn't it have beengreat if you had been born
(06:47):
differently?
And so this was with me upuntil about 2004.
And my first marriage we weremarried 18 years.
We have two wonderful children,but my first marriage began to
break down and I really don'tbelieve it was because of this
struggle.
Some people might argue that,but I've thought a lot about
this.
But our marriage did break downand I became, you know now had
(07:11):
I failed in my career, but I hadfailed in my most important
relationship of my life.
So I became very suicidal and Iremember, specifically on
Goshen Road and in outside ofPhiladelphia there were two
trees.
I would, I would look at themall the time, like you know how
fast can I drive my car intothem?
(07:33):
And then, thank goodness, theLord told me.
You know, if you do that youmight not die, you might end up
in a worse state, and and thenalso I wouldn't would go to the
train station.
There's a St David's trainstation for the main line out of
Philadelphia and I went thereone day and I was, you know,
measuring distance between thetracks and the train.
(07:54):
And there was that evening,nancy, that I spent in the
psychiatric ward of PaleyHospital because they I was
forced to go there becausepeople were concerned I was
suicidal.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So uh so.
I say someone saw something inyou and said hey, you need some
help yeah, I was with acounselor at the time.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
As a matter of fact, I guess the whole story here is
the day I went to the trainstation, this counselor had been
my counselor and then shedecided that she wanted to have
a different career direction,but she kept me on because she
was concerned about me.
Well, that morning she calledme up and said I'm afraid you're
really going to commit suicide.
I don't want to have that on myplate.
(08:39):
So goodbye.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So that's when I ended up going to the train
station.
But she actually got back andintervened later in the day and
told me I had no choice.
I could either voluntarily gointo the hospital or I'd be
forced to go in.
So I volunteered to go in.
So, and about two nights later,two nights after I got out of
the hospital, I spent a longweekend in the hospital.
(09:08):
I came out of work at night andI can't speak for those who have
committed suicide, nancy, but Iknow what I felt that night.
You know, when you're battlingsuicidal feelings, you're like I
want to live, no, I don't wantto live, I want to live, I don't
want to live, I want to live, Idon't want to live.
Well, that night the battlestopped.
There was no I want to live, itwas just I want to die.
(09:29):
There is a dark peace thatcomes over you.
It really does and it's a scarypeace.
Well, fortunately, the Lordused my brother-in-law to talk
sense into me that night, andI'm still here 20 years later.
It's actually been just over 20years since that happened.
(09:49):
Well, a few months later, I wasteaching a class and a student
came up and came and sat rightin front of me.
It was the first day of class.
I taught at a technical schooland so I'm watching her doodle
while I'm teaching, and I wentup to her at break and struck up
a conversation with her and weended up becoming friends.
(10:12):
And so here I was, goingthrough this really destructive
divorce, really painful divorce,and this woman is building me
up.
You know, we became friends andshe's telling me how.
You know, I'm a great guy, I'ma wonderful guy and the best guy
she's ever known, and so ofcourse, you're going to draw
closer to her because she'sbuilding you up like this.
(10:38):
But she was a very broken woman.
Her father abandoned her whenshe was in the womb, her
mother's womb.
They had grown up in poverty.
She gave birth to a young boywhen she was a teenager, and so
she had a very broken life, andthe more I got to know her, the
more I stepped into herbrokenness and it became a part
(11:01):
of my struggles as well.
So her mother kicked her out ofthe house because her mother
found a cocaine pipe, and I waslike, no way, you know her
mother talking to her mother?
No way, no, that can't be true.
And so I ended up.
I wanted to put her up in ahotel but refused.
(11:24):
She had to go into this motel.
It was a seedy dive of a motel,it really was.
And so why do you want to behere?
And so I put her up in there,and one day she calls me and
says ha ha ha, they're kickingus out of the motel because they
found a meth lab and they thinkthe place is going to blow up.
And and I'm like, I'm like, I'mcoming down to rescue you.
(11:46):
I'm coming down to rescue you.
No, I'm not leaving this place.
I'm like ah, you know what'swith this woman.
And so a couple of months later,a month later, she calls me
down and I guess she was in needagain.
I gave her money, I thought forfood and all that.
So I walked into her motel roomand here I'm in this motel room
(12:07):
in the middle of the day, andall the curtains are closed and
nothing happened.
I mean, the Lord knows I'mtelling the truth.
There's nothing happened otherthan conversation.
And I left.
But years later I was thinkingboy, how foolish I was.
I had just closed on my maritalhome and so I had some cash and
she could have extorted meeasily.
She could have said well, youcame in and did X, y, z in this
(12:32):
motel room.
I will tell people that unlessyou give me X amount of money,
that is not what happened, butthat motel room became a symbol
for me.
So I'm sad to report that shegot on a train.
She went down to Southern UnitedStates to reconnect with her
dad, who she really never hadgotten to know, and I heard
(12:53):
about a year later she died of adrug overdose.
So what's important about thatis I grieved like I've never
grieved before, nancy.
I was crying for months, months, months, literally every in the
morning, in the evening, and itwas during that time where you
(13:14):
take all this stuff that I'mstruggling with, I said Jesus,
rescue me, come in and rescue me, help me out.
And I do remember I actuallysaid Holy Spirit, move in,
unpack your bags, put up yourpitchers and go into my closet
and clean out the skeletons.
I remember actually saying thatto the Lord.
(13:36):
So a couple of months later Iactually got a connection with
this biblical counselor.
It was a woman and, oh mygoodness, you know I told I
wanted to talk to her about theloss of my friend.
I wanted to talk to her aboutmy divorce.
I wanted to talk about, I guess, my feelings of failure.
But what this woman grabbedonto was when I revealed that I
(13:57):
had a lifetime struggle withgender identity.
And that's what she grabbedonto and that's what she wanted
to work on.
And so I remember initialinterviews.
I had my hat, the brim of myhat, literally covering my eyes.
I know, you know your viewerscan't see us, but I'm doing it
with you.
I was like this, and so I wasso ashamed that I was revealing
(14:19):
this struggle for the first timein my life to somebody else.
So so, nancy, she worked withme for four years every week and
I like to say, metaphoricallyspeaking, I would vomit on her,
on her in her office floor, notliterally, but here's all the
corruption in my heart.
And you know what, nancy, shedid.
(14:41):
She just kept loving me, lovingme, loving me.
She set a very high standardfor biblical truth, but she kept
loving me and loving me, andshe changed my life.
She absolutely changed my life.
So now, because of her, I nowbelieve that God loved me, and I
really believe that God lovedme.
(15:02):
And so I started opening up theword of God.
I'd read it many times before,but before it was the message of
the God who didn.
God loved me, and so I startedopening up the word of God.
I'd read it many times before,but before it was the message of
the God who didn't like me.
Now it was the God that lovedme dearly, and so it was
transforming.
I studied the Bible from coverto cover, four or five years in
a row and I started wanting toget in serving him.
You know I started.
I got involved with a prisonministry.
(15:26):
Now, today, you know, here I am.
I'm the executive director ofGramazan Incorporated.
It's a organization.
Our goal is to encouragebelievers across the United
States to prepare and sharetheir testimonies with their
friends, their family, theirco-workers, their neighbors, but
it's also I want to encouragechurches across America to
(15:47):
publish testimonies on theirwebsites.
So I'm now the executivedirector of Gramazin.
We just got started, but we'regetting some momentum.
And, nancy, here you look at who, where I was, and the feelings
of failure and all this stuff.
What did God do?
He called me to be on the radio.
So now I have a radio show inNew England with over 100,000
(16:08):
listeners a day and it's allabout testimony sharing and
we're interviewing people acrossthe country.
We have the New EnglandTestimony Challenge.
I want to get everyBible-believing church in New
England to have one testimonyaired on my show.
So this all came out of theunderstanding that God now loves
(16:28):
me.
Now I know that was a longanswer to your question.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
No, it was good.
I heard so many wonderfulthings in there.
One thing I want to say is howbrave of you to trust another
counselor after you had seen oneand kind of seems to me that
she gave up on you, butthankfully she did say, hey, you
do need to go to the hospital.
(16:54):
I am thankful for that.
But for you to trust someone inthat, in that position again.
And then the other thing is, isI'm so thankful that you shared
these things about failure,about gender identity, about not
knowing you know that God lovesyou, because, as we've kind of
(17:15):
talked off air is it's, it's a.
It's a disservice to people whodon't know God yet to see
Christians and not know theirstory, because we might say, oh,
I'm a little sad about how Iwas or I didn't like that part
of my life, so I'm just notgoing to share about.
(17:36):
I'm just.
You know, god gave me grace,god loves me, I don't have to
talk about that anymore.
And how brave of you to shareyour story.
And I think that there arepeople that are listening that
are going to say you know, I canconnect with this part, I can
connect with this part.
I can connect with this part.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, amen, interesting, nancy.
Again, I kept this secret of mystruggle.
I mean I kept it as a secretgreater than any national secret
kept by the government I toldnobody about, wrote a book about
my whole gender identitystruggle and I made a Christian
(18:22):
novel called the Two Souls ofHeidi Lonsbury.
Heidi Lonsbury is the name I'mgiving that woman who I knew.
I'm not going to share her realname, but so I fictionalized
her story and so it's really astory of how the other main
character in the book, who'sTroy Ashford, really is kind of
(18:45):
a representative of me.
What this book does is itexplores an alternative story
for my life where God actuallytook a different approach.
And so yet we see that evenwhen he disciplines me the way
he does in the book, that hestill nonetheless loves my soul
very much.
And we see, we see god workthroughout the rest of the book.
(19:07):
So I don't want to say anythingmore.
I would hope that people wouldbe willing to buy the book, but
yeah, my whole my whole lifestruggle and gender identity
struggle is in the two souls ofheidi lonsbury and we'll we'll
link that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
What would you say to someone who feels like you do
they go to church or they usedto go to church, but they really
don't feel like God could lovethem, Like maybe they could love
other people but he couldn'tlove me.
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, Nancy, I don't want to speak for other people,
but I can share my ownexperience.
I do believe.
I think the evidence of God'slove for us is there, for us to
see it really is.
I think it's abounding.
You know, do you ever wake upin the morning and say you know,
I can see again this morning?
I can hear, I can speak, I canmove my hands, I can think, I
(20:04):
can create, write, design.
Just there we have plenty ofevidence of how God shows his
love to us every day.
So I was.
I think my thinking that Goddoesn't love me was intentional,
was deliberate, it was arebellious thing.
So, honestly, I would encourageyou you know the listeners out
(20:24):
there to truly understand thatwe are rebels from God.
That's our normal state of mind.
Every human thinks he or she isthe God of their life.
They can do as they please, saywhat they want, be who they
want to be, define truth forthemselves you know my truth and
decide what is good and evil.
They rely on their own strengthand follow their own advice.
(20:45):
This is a recipe for anxiety,insecurity and feeling
unfulfilled and unloved by God.
So, for me, part of this comingto terms of God loving me, I, I
had to confess my rebellionfrom god I had to ask for
forgiveness of my sins throughjesus christ and I had to
(21:05):
surrender my life to christ.
I literally said, father, takeover my life and and use it for
your honor and glory.
And that's when I really beganto feel and and a uh, like a
tidal wave of god saying to me Ilove you so much.
Because I think I was the onewho wasn't listening.
It wasn't that he wasn'ttelling me he loved me.
(21:27):
I was the one who wasn'tlistening to it.
I didn't want to hear it.
I don't know if that helpsother people, but that's what
helped me to really understandthe love of God.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Oh, that's really good.
I like that kind of aperspective switch on on how you
, how you view God.
Yes, you said you.
You went into the prisons.
Could you tell real brieflyabout what that was like?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, sure I was in.
I got connected with a guy inBucks County, pennsylvania, and
he has today a very I don't knowwhat the word is it's not
prosperous, it's a veryeffective and growing prison and
addiction recovery ministry.
I'll just throw out the name,I'll just name drop here Bob
(22:14):
Szafranski Christian Life Prisonand Recovery Ministry.
That's right, clprm.
Uh, uh, christian life prisonand uh, recovery ministry that's
right, clprm.
So, uh.
So I I met up with him and inhis team, goes into the prison
in philadelphia, wasspecifically current from hold
prison and it was the largestprison in philadelphia, had over
3 000 inmates, and uh, andthese are people that have done
(22:36):
it all, you know, this is not,uh, you know people that have
done it all, you know, this isnot, you know people that have
traffic tickets.
So he invited me to go in onetime to do go in with him the
prison ministry.
And boy that's.
I don't know if you've everdone that, nancy, but go, but
you know you have to go throughall the check in with the guards
and you got to go.
The steel doors shut behind youand another steel door shuts
(22:59):
behind you and you're stuck inhere and so you're, you're,
you're, uh, walking throughthese, these prison halls, and
so they had a, they had a chapelin there and you know, nancy,
this was so incredible, I'm soexcited to talk about it.
So I would stand at the doorand greet the guys coming in and
they were like high-fiving meand handshaking me and welcoming
(23:20):
me and I think or evenprisoners gave me a hug because
they wanted to hear the gospeland they saw us as people coming
in with the beloved gospel ofJesus Christ.
And so I was in this room.
These men had no pretense.
It's not like, oh hey, I had anice vacation home or I'm gonna
go to France.
You know there was no.
You you're going into a churchand you're competing with other
(23:42):
people.
These were broken men sayingyou know, these were murderers
and probably rapists andwhatever.
And they're saying, you know, Isaw them.
They're lifting their hands upto God and, oh, I need
forgiveness of my sin.
I've never experienced I guessyou can hear it in my voice I've
never experienced a worshipservice like that.
So I went in multiple times andone time, you know, bob asked
(24:05):
me to preach and I'm more of a,I go to a more of a conservative
denomination, so I suddenlysound like a Pentecostal
preacher.
I mean, I was like filled withthe spirit.
I'm like, uh oh, I just my soncame up to me, he went with me
that that time and he came upwith me after the.
(24:26):
I spoke like who are?
But so I've never experienced aworship service like that
before.
And I will say that when Imoved up to massachusetts, where
I live now, I spent also did 18months in juvenile detention
ministry.
So I went in to a juveniledetention what's a prison?
It's, I don't, I don't knowwhat you call it, but it is
(24:48):
behind bars and so I had theopportunity to work now with
younger people, young men whohad committed some serious
crimes as well.
So that's my experience withprison ministry.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Wow, Wow.
So Gramazin is Amazing Gracejust backwards, which I love.
We are both passionate aboutstories and testimonies.
How do you think the church canbe transformed by people's
testimonies?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
church can be transformed by people's
testimonies.
Yeah, I think there's maybefour ways in which a church
congregation can be transformedby a deliberate and intentional
effort program to encourage thebelievers in the congregation to
share their testimony.
First of all, it'sself-examination.
So people think about theirtestament is they're kind of
forced to look into their heartand examine, reflect upon their
(25:45):
life.
What has christ done?
Or where do I need to grow?
Or or what, what has god beenteaching me?
And I think we get so busy nancyin our lives we don't take time
to really have those moments ofreflection of what's going on
in our spiritual life.
So the whole idea of a churchtalking about testimonies like
(26:06):
hey, let's, as a church, startproducing testimonies.
It's going to cause individualsto think about where they are
in their faith and where theyneed to grow, and I think that's
really good.
Second of all, it would beinspiration.
So when someone in a churchsteps up to share their
testimony publicly, it inspiresother believers to do the same.
(26:26):
One person leads to two, more,which leads to four, more, which
leads to eight, and testimonysharing can create a movement
within a church, perhaps addingnew life to a congregation that
maybe is a little stale.
A church just needs that firstperson who is willing to step up
and share their testimonypublicly.
So I know you have listeners toyour podcast, so is there one
(26:48):
person in your podcast that cango to their church and say hey,
I would like to share mytestimony.
And maybe that can start amovement in the church.
I would like to encourage themto do that.
I think the third reason thattestimony sharing is great in a
church is connections.
So we often go to church withpeople whose backgrounds are
unknown to us.
Meanwhile, we feel intimidatedby our own past.
(27:10):
For example, we don't wantpeople to know that we had
struggled with drug or alcoholaddiction in our past or for me
it was gender struggle.
Well, when someone steps up andshares a testimony of, let's
say, drug or alcohol addiction,you now have at least two people
in the church who have a reasonto connect with one another.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, and the testimony sharing sparks
conversation, and conversationsparks friendship and builds
community.
So I think a testimony sharingculture can really be a
community builder within achurch.
And then finally, of course, wewant to have local outreach
right.
So my concern is that peopledrive by our churches and they
(27:49):
think I can't relate with thosepeople.
Those are holier than thou,they don't never have had broken
lives or messed up lives.
But if the churches wouldpublish their testimonies on
their website or perhaps theirsocial media pages, and now the
neighbors would encounter thesestories and go, you know what?
There's broken people in thatchurch, just like me, and they
(28:11):
found hope.
And maybe, if I go to thatchurch, I will find that hope as
well.
So creating a culture oftestimony sharing is missional,
it's evangelistic, it's aboutthe gospel, and so our vision at
Gramazin is there's a day when,just like you know, hey, you
want a cup of coffee.
Where do you go?
(28:31):
Right?
Well, here in New England we goto Dunkin' Donuts, but many
other people might go toStarbucks or something like that
, and I am from Philly, I got toput a plug in for Wawa down
there, but so, yeah, I wouldlike the day when someone goes.
I'm despairing, I'm discouraged.
Where do I go to get stories?
Oh, the local church website,the church website down the
(28:52):
street.
And so those, to me, are thefour reasons why churches would
be blessed by getting involvedwith testimony sharing yeah, no,
that's so good.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
So, as we're wrapping up, I've just loved chatting
with you and appreciate yourtestimony um what is your
favorite bible verse or story.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, no question, my favorite Bible verse is 2
Corinthians 1, 3, and 4.
Praise be to the God and Fatherof our Lord Jesus Christ, the
Father of compassion and the Godof all comfort, who comforts us
in all our troubles.
Why?
So that we can comfort those inany trouble with the comfort we
ourselves receive from God.
(29:32):
So God pours out comfort intoour lives, nancy, because he
wants us to give that comfort toother people, and so that's
kind of the Gramazan verse,that's our Bible verse.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I love that.
What are you grateful for?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Oh, the list is really long.
Like I said earlier, I canthank God for my eyesight, I can
thank God for the little kittenthat's underneath my feet here,
but I think for me it goes downto three things.
I'm grateful for salvation.
At one time I was spirituallyblind, but Jesus opened my eyes
for the need for the gospel.
Number two I'm grateful fortransformation.
(30:10):
The people that know me well,Nancy, know that there's ways I
need to grow.
I'm far from a perfect man, butI've changed in many ways and
I've put a lot of my old waysbehind me, and so I'm thankful
for the transformation.
And then, thirdly, I'm thankfulfor the calling that now God
has led me to write books I'vewritten five books now and to
(30:33):
lead this, this movement, and tobe on the radio, and so I'm
very thankful for the calling aswell that's good.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
What kindness have you shown or what kindness have
you seen from someone in thelast week?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
well, uh, this is really as funny.
I've loved music all my life.
I mean, I just love music andbut I never imagined myself ever
being a songwriter.
Oh God, in his sense of humor,had me connect with a guy named
Peter Mercurio, and so he's kindof the musician and composer
and I'm the lyricist and I'malso the song idea guy.
(31:11):
So we're out producing music.
We're going to have severalsongs released later this year,
guys.
So we're out producing music,uh, we're gonna have several
songs released later this year.
But so he no longer has time toteach me guitar.
So this guy from rock party,who's actually interviewed on my
radio show, bob morris, uh, hehas.
He has said, yeah, hey, I'dlike to teach a guitar.
So, um, and for free, you know.
And so we got together lastnight.
(31:31):
We we're right looking at theocean while we're playing guitar
and uh.
So I'm really thankful for hiskindness to offer his skill and
his time to teach me.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So, oh, that's so great.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
You have a lot of wonderfulthings going on in your life
right now.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I do.
I'm not naive to know thatthere isn't more adversity in
the future, and I also believeeven today that my ministry is
under spiritual attack.
So it's not always going to beeverything's going to be
wonderful, but God is faithfulall the time.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, that's a good reminder during those times.
Well, thank you for being on,thank you for sharing your story
and being bold enough to sharesome of those parts that that
you felt that God didn't loveyou through at that time.
And I know that there's manyparts in there and I feel like
someone's going to be able toconnect with that and, like you
(32:27):
said, not only just say, oh,connect with it, but then see
the hope and the love and thejoy that has gone, and I think
that's the important part.
So, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
You're welcome and I invite any of your listeners to
reach out to us at grimazincom.
There is a contact us page linkat the bottom.
Contact me.
I'd be glad to talk with you.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Oh, that's so awesome .
Well, thank you, charles andeveryone.
Thanks for listening toOrdinary People, extraordinary
Things, where your story is Hisglory.
Thank you for joining us.
If this has been impactful foryou, please share it.
Share it on social media.
Send a text with the link tolisten to this episode.
(33:10):
Thank you for listeninganywhere that you listen to
podcasts and until next time,remember your story is His glory
.
I'm so thankful you're here listening to
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings.
I am praying over this podcastthat it would be impactful and
insightful for you.
Please let me know what partreally resonated with you.
We are so thankful that you aregetting the word out about
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings.
Thank you for making thispodcast what it is today.
(00:24):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Well, welcome to OrdinaryPeople Extraordinary Things.
I am here with Charles.
Charles, thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I am so pleased to be with you, Nancy.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Well, if anyone doesn't know who you are, can
you give three words or phrasesto describe yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
doesn't know who you are.
Can you give three words orphrases to describe yourself?
Well, one word that comes tomind is I'm unworthy of all of
the goodness that I havereceived from God, and I'm so
grateful for his greatgenerosity.
I'm a recipient of God'samazing grace and mercy.
My sins have been forgiven bywhat Christ did on the cross.
And the third thing, Nancy, isI feel very joyful and thankful
(01:06):
for what Christ has done in mylife.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Those are all good.
Those are all really good.
Were you raised in the church?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I grew up outside of Philadelphia in a very
evangelical church.
You might even consider it,perhaps, a fundamentalist church
.
My parents sent me to Sundayschool, to VBS.
We attended two services everySunday, the morning and the
evening, and so I grew up bathedin the evangelical culture.
(01:37):
I even was sent to a prettyreputable Christian school and
was there throughout my middleschool and high school years.
So I grew up with the gospel, Igrew up with good doctrine and
yet, nancy it's interesting Ireally didn't believe God loved
me, despite all of that.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
You believed in God.
You just didn't believe heloved you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I actually believed in the gospel, but I somehow
thought it applied to everybodyelse but me, so that for some
reason God had he well, actuallythere is a reason which we'll
talk about but I thought God hadrejected me, and so the gospel
really didn't give me the hopethat it gave everybody else
(02:24):
around me.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
You said that there was a reason for that.
Can you share that?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
When I was three years old it was like I'll give
away my age, nancy.
It was about 1964, 65.
I witnessed my father beatingmy sister and I can still close
my eyes and hear that to thisday.
And in that same evening myfather pushed my mother out of
(02:51):
the bedroom and I came to theconclusion, as a three to
four-year-old toddler, that Ididn't want to be like my dad.
I saw him as a brute.
I saw him.
You know, nobody that I wantedto emulate.
And you know, even as a toddler, I'm coming to this conclusion
and I do want to say that myfather is with the lord and he
(03:14):
was a humble man.
I know he regretted whathappened that day and I'm so
grateful that he was my dad andI have his bible upstairs and I
treasure it.
And, nancy, what's reallywonderful is I have his written
test.
So I have no doubt that I'mgoing to see my father again and
he's perfect now that he's withthe Lord.
(03:35):
But that did happen and again Iwas saying as a three to four
year old, I really don't want tobe a guy like that.
And then my mother chose to sayat the time again, I'm a three
to four year old.
I'm very impressionable.
She said Well, you're going togrow up to be just like your dad
, and it was almost like a curse.
You know, because I was born aboy, I'm going to be a bad
(03:58):
person and that's.
That's kind of the deduction Icame to as a toddler, and that's
kind of the deduction I came toas a toddler.
Now I want to say again for mymom oh my goodness, she was a
great woman of faith the last 20, 30 years of her life.
I know that my ministry is nowdoing well because of my
mother's prayers and her supportand sending me Bible verses and
(04:19):
stuff.
So again, I'm not here toderide my parents, but I'm just
saying factually this happened.
So I walked away from thatwhole experience thinking you
know what my male gender was amoral failure.
So, nancy, what began then wasa really a lifetime of, you know
(04:43):
, envy of 50% of the population,of disappointment that I had
not been born in a different way.
And, nancy, I struggled withthat through elementary school.
I've thought about it thatthose thoughts were there in
kindergarten when I startedinteracting with other girls in
the class.
But you know what, nancy, godprotected me and I think he knew
(05:05):
I know he knew all along that Iwould now be in ministry many
decades later and he protectedme and he gave me, even as a
young child, this understandingthat you can never become a girl
, right, you never can become afemale.
That's impossible.
(05:27):
And so I never went down.
I guess you would now say it intoday's current events.
I never went down thetransgender path.
You know I never tried to put onmakeup and dresses, but it was
something in my mind that Iwould just imagine different
life scenarios, differentfantasies, where I had been born
female and therefore I would bemore acceptable, right.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You wouldn't have these kind of terrible traits
that you felt your dad had andthat you were cursed to also
have.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, that is well said, that's exactly right, okay
, so anyways, I had thesefantasies with me throughout
most of my life.
Well, that is well said, that'sexactly right.
So, anyways, I had thesefantasies with me throughout
most of my life.
I also struggled when I becamean adult and started having a
career.
I struggled with feelings offailure as a man because I was
(06:24):
underachieving.
I look at my other guy friendsand they're making, you know,
top dollar and they got allthese great positions and I I
felt I was not in really goodjobs that I was really proud of,
and so that just reinforcedyou're a failure as a man.
You're a failure as a man.
Your boy wouldn't have beengreat if you had been born
differently.
Boy, wouldn't it have beengreat if you had been born
(06:47):
differently?
And so this was with me upuntil about 2004.
And my first marriage we weremarried 18 years.
We have two wonderful children,but my first marriage began to
break down and I really don'tbelieve it was because of this
struggle.
Some people might argue that,but I've thought a lot about
this.
But our marriage did break downand I became, you know now had
(07:11):
I failed in my career, but I hadfailed in my most important
relationship of my life.
So I became very suicidal and Iremember, specifically on
Goshen Road and in outside ofPhiladelphia there were two
trees.
I would, I would look at themall the time, like you know how
fast can I drive my car intothem?
(07:33):
And then, thank goodness, theLord told me.
You know, if you do that youmight not die, you might end up
in a worse state, and and thenalso I wouldn't would go to the
train station.
There's a St David's trainstation for the main line out of
Philadelphia and I went thereone day and I was, you know,
measuring distance between thetracks and the train.
(07:54):
And there was that evening,nancy, that I spent in the
psychiatric ward of PaleyHospital because they I was
forced to go there becausepeople were concerned I was
suicidal.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So uh so.
I say someone saw something inyou and said hey, you need some
help yeah, I was with acounselor at the time.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
As a matter of fact, I guess the whole story here is
the day I went to the trainstation, this counselor had been
my counselor and then shedecided that she wanted to have
a different career direction,but she kept me on because she
was concerned about me.
Well, that morning she calledme up and said I'm afraid you're
really going to commit suicide.
I don't want to have that on myplate.
(08:39):
So goodbye.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So that's when I ended up going to the train
station.
But she actually got back andintervened later in the day and
told me I had no choice.
I could either voluntarily gointo the hospital or I'd be
forced to go in.
So I volunteered to go in.
So, and about two nights later,two nights after I got out of
the hospital, I spent a longweekend in the hospital.
(09:08):
I came out of work at night andI can't speak for those who have
committed suicide, nancy, but Iknow what I felt that night.
You know, when you're battlingsuicidal feelings, you're like I
want to live, no, I don't wantto live, I want to live, I don't
want to live, I want to live, Idon't want to live.
Well, that night the battlestopped.
There was no I want to live, itwas just I want to die.
(09:29):
There is a dark peace thatcomes over you.
It really does and it's a scarypeace.
Well, fortunately, the Lordused my brother-in-law to talk
sense into me that night, andI'm still here 20 years later.
It's actually been just over 20years since that happened.
(09:49):
Well, a few months later, I wasteaching a class and a student
came up and came and sat rightin front of me.
It was the first day of class.
I taught at a technical schooland so I'm watching her doodle
while I'm teaching, and I wentup to her at break and struck up
a conversation with her and weended up becoming friends.
(10:12):
And so here I was, goingthrough this really destructive
divorce, really painful divorce,and this woman is building me
up.
You know, we became friends andshe's telling me how.
You know, I'm a great guy, I'ma wonderful guy and the best guy
she's ever known, and so ofcourse, you're going to draw
closer to her because she'sbuilding you up like this.
(10:38):
But she was a very broken woman.
Her father abandoned her whenshe was in the womb, her
mother's womb.
They had grown up in poverty.
She gave birth to a young boywhen she was a teenager, and so
she had a very broken life, andthe more I got to know her, the
more I stepped into herbrokenness and it became a part
(11:01):
of my struggles as well.
So her mother kicked her out ofthe house because her mother
found a cocaine pipe, and I waslike, no way, you know her
mother talking to her mother?
No way, no, that can't be true.
And so I ended up.
I wanted to put her up in ahotel but refused.
(11:24):
She had to go into this motel.
It was a seedy dive of a motel,it really was.
And so why do you want to behere?
And so I put her up in there,and one day she calls me and
says ha ha ha, they're kickingus out of the motel because they
found a meth lab and they thinkthe place is going to blow up.
And and I'm like, I'm like, I'mcoming down to rescue you.
(11:46):
I'm coming down to rescue you.
No, I'm not leaving this place.
I'm like ah, you know what'swith this woman.
And so a couple of months later,a month later, she calls me
down and I guess she was in needagain.
I gave her money, I thought forfood and all that.
So I walked into her motel roomand here I'm in this motel room
(12:07):
in the middle of the day, andall the curtains are closed and
nothing happened.
I mean, the Lord knows I'mtelling the truth.
There's nothing happened otherthan conversation.
And I left.
But years later I was thinkingboy, how foolish I was.
I had just closed on my maritalhome and so I had some cash and
she could have extorted meeasily.
She could have said well, youcame in and did X, y, z in this
(12:32):
motel room.
I will tell people that unlessyou give me X amount of money,
that is not what happened, butthat motel room became a symbol
for me.
So I'm sad to report that shegot on a train.
She went down to Southern UnitedStates to reconnect with her
dad, who she really never hadgotten to know, and I heard
(12:53):
about a year later she died of adrug overdose.
So what's important about thatis I grieved like I've never
grieved before, nancy.
I was crying for months, months, months, literally every in the
morning, in the evening, and itwas during that time where you
(13:14):
take all this stuff that I'mstruggling with, I said Jesus,
rescue me, come in and rescue me, help me out.
And I do remember I actuallysaid Holy Spirit, move in,
unpack your bags, put up yourpitchers and go into my closet
and clean out the skeletons.
I remember actually saying thatto the Lord.
(13:36):
So a couple of months later Iactually got a connection with
this biblical counselor.
It was a woman and, oh mygoodness, you know I told I
wanted to talk to her about theloss of my friend.
I wanted to talk to her aboutmy divorce.
I wanted to talk about, I guess, my feelings of failure.
But what this woman grabbedonto was when I revealed that I
(13:57):
had a lifetime struggle withgender identity.
And that's what she grabbedonto and that's what she wanted
to work on.
And so I remember initialinterviews.
I had my hat, the brim of myhat, literally covering my eyes.
I know, you know your viewerscan't see us, but I'm doing it
with you.
I was like this, and so I wasso ashamed that I was revealing
(14:19):
this struggle for the first timein my life to somebody else.
So so, nancy, she worked withme for four years every week and
I like to say, metaphoricallyspeaking, I would vomit on her,
on her in her office floor, notliterally, but here's all the
corruption in my heart.
And you know what, nancy, shedid.
(14:41):
She just kept loving me, lovingme, loving me.
She set a very high standardfor biblical truth, but she kept
loving me and loving me, andshe changed my life.
She absolutely changed my life.
So now, because of her, I nowbelieve that God loved me, and I
really believe that God lovedme.
(15:02):
And so I started opening up theword of God.
I'd read it many times before,but before it was the message of
the God who didn.
God loved me, and so I startedopening up the word of God.
I'd read it many times before,but before it was the message of
the God who didn't like me.
Now it was the God that lovedme dearly, and so it was
transforming.
I studied the Bible from coverto cover, four or five years in
a row and I started wanting toget in serving him.
You know I started.
I got involved with a prisonministry.
(15:26):
Now, today, you know, here I am.
I'm the executive director ofGramazan Incorporated.
It's a organization.
Our goal is to encouragebelievers across the United
States to prepare and sharetheir testimonies with their
friends, their family, theirco-workers, their neighbors, but
it's also I want to encouragechurches across America to
(15:47):
publish testimonies on theirwebsites.
So I'm now the executivedirector of Gramazin.
We just got started, but we'regetting some momentum.
And, nancy, here you look at who, where I was, and the feelings
of failure and all this stuff.
What did God do?
He called me to be on the radio.
So now I have a radio show inNew England with over 100,000
(16:08):
listeners a day and it's allabout testimony sharing and
we're interviewing people acrossthe country.
We have the New EnglandTestimony Challenge.
I want to get everyBible-believing church in New
England to have one testimonyaired on my show.
So this all came out of theunderstanding that God now loves
(16:28):
me.
Now I know that was a longanswer to your question.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
No, it was good.
I heard so many wonderfulthings in there.
One thing I want to say is howbrave of you to trust another
counselor after you had seen oneand kind of seems to me that
she gave up on you, butthankfully she did say, hey, you
do need to go to the hospital.
(16:54):
I am thankful for that.
But for you to trust someone inthat, in that position again.
And then the other thing is, isI'm so thankful that you shared
these things about failure,about gender identity, about not
knowing you know that God lovesyou, because, as we've kind of
(17:15):
talked off air is it's, it's a.
It's a disservice to people whodon't know God yet to see
Christians and not know theirstory, because we might say, oh,
I'm a little sad about how Iwas or I didn't like that part
of my life, so I'm just notgoing to share about.
(17:36):
I'm just.
You know, god gave me grace,god loves me, I don't have to
talk about that anymore.
And how brave of you to shareyour story.
And I think that there arepeople that are listening that
are going to say you know, I canconnect with this part, I can
connect with this part.
I can connect with this part.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, amen, interesting, nancy.
Again, I kept this secret of mystruggle.
I mean I kept it as a secretgreater than any national secret
kept by the government I toldnobody about, wrote a book about
my whole gender identitystruggle and I made a Christian
(18:22):
novel called the Two Souls ofHeidi Lonsbury.
Heidi Lonsbury is the name I'mgiving that woman who I knew.
I'm not going to share her realname, but so I fictionalized
her story and so it's really astory of how the other main
character in the book, who'sTroy Ashford, really is kind of
(18:45):
a representative of me.
What this book does is itexplores an alternative story
for my life where God actuallytook a different approach.
And so yet we see that evenwhen he disciplines me the way
he does in the book, that hestill nonetheless loves my soul
very much.
And we see, we see god workthroughout the rest of the book.
(19:07):
So I don't want to say anythingmore.
I would hope that people wouldbe willing to buy the book, but
yeah, my whole my whole lifestruggle and gender identity
struggle is in the two souls ofheidi lonsbury and we'll we'll
link that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
What would you say to someone who feels like you do
they go to church or they usedto go to church, but they really
don't feel like God could lovethem, Like maybe they could love
other people but he couldn'tlove me.
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, Nancy, I don't want to speak for other people,
but I can share my ownexperience.
I do believe.
I think the evidence of God'slove for us is there, for us to
see it really is.
I think it's abounding.
You know, do you ever wake upin the morning and say you know,
I can see again this morning?
I can hear, I can speak, I canmove my hands, I can think, I
(20:04):
can create, write, design.
Just there we have plenty ofevidence of how God shows his
love to us every day.
So I was.
I think my thinking that Goddoesn't love me was intentional,
was deliberate, it was arebellious thing.
So, honestly, I would encourageyou you know the listeners out
(20:24):
there to truly understand thatwe are rebels from God.
That's our normal state of mind.
Every human thinks he or she isthe God of their life.
They can do as they please, saywhat they want, be who they
want to be, define truth forthemselves you know my truth and
decide what is good and evil.
They rely on their own strengthand follow their own advice.
(20:45):
This is a recipe for anxiety,insecurity and feeling
unfulfilled and unloved by God.
So, for me, part of this comingto terms of God loving me, I, I
had to confess my rebellionfrom god I had to ask for
forgiveness of my sins throughjesus christ and I had to
(21:05):
surrender my life to christ.
I literally said, father, takeover my life and and use it for
your honor and glory.
And that's when I really beganto feel and and a uh, like a
tidal wave of god saying to me Ilove you so much.
Because I think I was the onewho wasn't listening.
It wasn't that he wasn'ttelling me he loved me.
(21:27):
I was the one who wasn'tlistening to it.
I didn't want to hear it.
I don't know if that helpsother people, but that's what
helped me to really understandthe love of God.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Oh, that's really good.
I like that kind of aperspective switch on on how you
, how you view God.
Yes, you said you.
You went into the prisons.
Could you tell real brieflyabout what that was like?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, sure I was in.
I got connected with a guy inBucks County, pennsylvania, and
he has today a very I don't knowwhat the word is it's not
prosperous, it's a veryeffective and growing prison and
addiction recovery ministry.
I'll just throw out the name,I'll just name drop here Bob
(22:14):
Szafranski Christian Life Prisonand Recovery Ministry.
That's right, clprm.
Uh, uh, christian life prisonand uh, recovery ministry that's
right, clprm.
So, uh.
So I I met up with him and inhis team, goes into the prison
in philadelphia, wasspecifically current from hold
prison and it was the largestprison in philadelphia, had over
3 000 inmates, and uh, andthese are people that have done
(22:36):
it all, you know, this is not,uh, you know people that have
done it all, you know, this isnot, you know people that have
traffic tickets.
So he invited me to go in onetime to do go in with him the
prison ministry.
And boy that's.
I don't know if you've everdone that, nancy, but go, but
you know you have to go throughall the check in with the guards
and you got to go.
The steel doors shut behind youand another steel door shuts
(22:59):
behind you and you're stuck inhere and so you're, you're,
you're, uh, walking throughthese, these prison halls, and
so they had a, they had a chapelin there and you know, nancy,
this was so incredible, I'm soexcited to talk about it.
So I would stand at the doorand greet the guys coming in and
they were like high-fiving meand handshaking me and welcoming
(23:20):
me and I think or evenprisoners gave me a hug because
they wanted to hear the gospeland they saw us as people coming
in with the beloved gospel ofJesus Christ.
And so I was in this room.
These men had no pretense.
It's not like, oh hey, I had anice vacation home or I'm gonna
go to France.
You know there was no.
You you're going into a churchand you're competing with other
(23:42):
people.
These were broken men sayingyou know, these were murderers
and probably rapists andwhatever.
And they're saying, you know, Isaw them.
They're lifting their hands upto God and, oh, I need
forgiveness of my sin.
I've never experienced I guessyou can hear it in my voice I've
never experienced a worshipservice like that.
So I went in multiple times andone time, you know, bob asked
(24:05):
me to preach and I'm more of a,I go to a more of a conservative
denomination, so I suddenlysound like a Pentecostal
preacher.
I mean, I was like filled withthe spirit.
I'm like, uh oh, I just my soncame up to me, he went with me
that that time and he came upwith me after the.
(24:26):
I spoke like who are?
But so I've never experienced aworship service like that
before.
And I will say that when Imoved up to massachusetts, where
I live now, I spent also did 18months in juvenile detention
ministry.
So I went in to a juveniledetention what's a prison?
It's, I don't, I don't knowwhat you call it, but it is
(24:48):
behind bars and so I had theopportunity to work now with
younger people, young men whohad committed some serious
crimes as well.
So that's my experience withprison ministry.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Wow, Wow.
So Gramazin is Amazing Gracejust backwards, which I love.
We are both passionate aboutstories and testimonies.
How do you think the church canbe transformed by people's
testimonies?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
church can be transformed by people's
testimonies.
Yeah, I think there's maybefour ways in which a church
congregation can be transformedby a deliberate and intentional
effort program to encourage thebelievers in the congregation to
share their testimony.
First of all, it'sself-examination.
So people think about theirtestament is they're kind of
forced to look into their heartand examine, reflect upon their
(25:45):
life.
What has christ done?
Or where do I need to grow?
Or or what, what has god beenteaching me?
And I think we get so busy nancyin our lives we don't take time
to really have those moments ofreflection of what's going on
in our spiritual life.
So the whole idea of a churchtalking about testimonies like
(26:06):
hey, let's, as a church, startproducing testimonies.
It's going to cause individualsto think about where they are
in their faith and where theyneed to grow, and I think that's
really good.
Second of all, it would beinspiration.
So when someone in a churchsteps up to share their
testimony publicly, it inspiresother believers to do the same.
(26:26):
One person leads to two, more,which leads to four, more, which
leads to eight, and testimonysharing can create a movement
within a church, perhaps addingnew life to a congregation that
maybe is a little stale.
A church just needs that firstperson who is willing to step up
and share their testimonypublicly.
So I know you have listeners toyour podcast, so is there one
(26:48):
person in your podcast that cango to their church and say hey,
I would like to share mytestimony.
And maybe that can start amovement in the church.
I would like to encourage themto do that.
I think the third reason thattestimony sharing is great in a
church is connections.
So we often go to church withpeople whose backgrounds are
unknown to us.
Meanwhile, we feel intimidatedby our own past.
(27:10):
For example, we don't wantpeople to know that we had
struggled with drug or alcoholaddiction in our past or for me
it was gender struggle.
Well, when someone steps up andshares a testimony of, let's
say, drug or alcohol addiction,you now have at least two people
in the church who have a reasonto connect with one another.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, and the testimony sharing sparks
conversation, and conversationsparks friendship and builds
community.
So I think a testimony sharingculture can really be a
community builder within achurch.
And then finally, of course, wewant to have local outreach
right.
So my concern is that peopledrive by our churches and they
(27:49):
think I can't relate with thosepeople.
Those are holier than thou,they don't never have had broken
lives or messed up lives.
But if the churches wouldpublish their testimonies on
their website or perhaps theirsocial media pages, and now the
neighbors would encounter thesestories and go, you know what?
There's broken people in thatchurch, just like me, and they
(28:11):
found hope.
And maybe, if I go to thatchurch, I will find that hope as
well.
So creating a culture oftestimony sharing is missional,
it's evangelistic, it's aboutthe gospel, and so our vision at
Gramazin is there's a day when,just like you know, hey, you
want a cup of coffee.
Where do you go?
(28:31):
Right?
Well, here in New England we goto Dunkin' Donuts, but many
other people might go toStarbucks or something like that
, and I am from Philly, I got toput a plug in for Wawa down
there, but so, yeah, I wouldlike the day when someone goes.
I'm despairing, I'm discouraged.
Where do I go to get stories?
Oh, the local church website,the church website down the
(28:52):
street.
And so those, to me, are thefour reasons why churches would
be blessed by getting involvedwith testimony sharing yeah, no,
that's so good.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
So, as we're wrapping up, I've just loved chatting
with you and appreciate yourtestimony um what is your
favorite bible verse or story.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, no question, my favorite Bible verse is 2
Corinthians 1, 3, and 4.
Praise be to the God and Fatherof our Lord Jesus Christ, the
Father of compassion and the Godof all comfort, who comforts us
in all our troubles.
Why?
So that we can comfort those inany trouble with the comfort we
ourselves receive from God.
(29:32):
So God pours out comfort intoour lives, nancy, because he
wants us to give that comfort toother people, and so that's
kind of the Gramazan verse,that's our Bible verse.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I love that.
What are you grateful for?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Oh, the list is really long.
Like I said earlier, I canthank God for my eyesight, I can
thank God for the little kittenthat's underneath my feet here,
but I think for me it goes downto three things.
I'm grateful for salvation.
At one time I was spirituallyblind, but Jesus opened my eyes
for the need for the gospel.
Number two I'm grateful fortransformation.
(30:10):
The people that know me well,Nancy, know that there's ways I
need to grow.
I'm far from a perfect man, butI've changed in many ways and
I've put a lot of my old waysbehind me, and so I'm thankful
for the transformation.
And then, thirdly, I'm thankfulfor the calling that now God
has led me to write books I'vewritten five books now and to
(30:33):
lead this, this movement, and tobe on the radio, and so I'm
very thankful for the calling aswell that's good.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
What kindness have you shown or what kindness have
you seen from someone in thelast week?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
well, uh, this is really as funny.
I've loved music all my life.
I mean, I just love music andbut I never imagined myself ever
being a songwriter.
Oh God, in his sense of humor,had me connect with a guy named
Peter Mercurio, and so he's kindof the musician and composer
and I'm the lyricist and I'malso the song idea guy.
(31:11):
So we're out producing music.
We're going to have severalsongs released later this year,
guys.
So we're out producing music,uh, we're gonna have several
songs released later this year.
But so he no longer has time toteach me guitar.
So this guy from rock party,who's actually interviewed on my
radio show, bob morris, uh, hehas.
He has said, yeah, hey, I'dlike to teach a guitar.
So, um, and for free, you know.
And so we got together lastnight.
(31:31):
We we're right looking at theocean while we're playing guitar
and uh.
So I'm really thankful for hiskindness to offer his skill and
his time to teach me.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So, oh, that's so great.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
You have a lot of wonderfulthings going on in your life
right now.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I do.
I'm not naive to know thatthere isn't more adversity in
the future, and I also believeeven today that my ministry is
under spiritual attack.
So it's not always going to beeverything's going to be
wonderful, but God is faithfulall the time.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, that's a good reminder during those times.
Well, thank you for being on,thank you for sharing your story
and being bold enough to sharesome of those parts that that
you felt that God didn't loveyou through at that time.
And I know that there's manyparts in there and I feel like
someone's going to be able toconnect with that and, like you
(32:27):
said, not only just say, oh,connect with it, but then see
the hope and the love and thejoy that has gone, and I think
that's the important part.
So, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
You're welcome and I invite any of your listeners to
reach out to us at grimazincom.
There is a contact us page linkat the bottom.
Contact me.
I'd be glad to talk with you.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Oh, that's so awesome .
Well, thank you, charles andeveryone.
Thanks for listening toOrdinary People, extraordinary
Things, where your story is Hisglory.
Thank you for joining us.
If this has been impactful foryou, please share it.
Share it on social media.
Send a text with the link tolisten to this episode.
(33:10):
Thank you for listeninganywhere that you listen to
podcasts and until next time,remember your story is His glory
.
Popular Podcasts
Monster: BTK
'Monster: BTK', the newest installment in the 'Monster' franchise, reveals the true story of the Wichita, Kansas serial killer who murdered at least 10 people between 1974 and 1991. Known by the moniker, BTK – Bind Torture Kill, his notoriety was bolstered by the taunting letters he sent to police, and the chilling phone calls he made to media outlets. BTK's identity was finally revealed in 2005 to the shock of his family, his community, and the world. He was the serial killer next door. From Tenderfoot TV & iHeartPodcasts, this is 'Monster: BTK'.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.