Weaving Threads of Empathy: Fashioning Support in Criminology and Geek Culture

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When the threads of fashion design intertwine with the stark world of criminology, you get Dr. Shelley, our remarkable guest, who weaves her insights into victimization and mental health with the finesse of a veteran. Our conversation traverses the misunderstood terrain of 'victim mentality,' highlighting the power of belief and validation in transforming lives. It's a heart-to-heart that promises to reframe your understanding of support and the immeasurable value of education, as we reflect on our own journeys as first-generation college students finding solace and purpose in the labyrinth of criminal justice.

Venturing further, we tackle the thorny issue of toxic charity, where good intentions can sometimes lead to more harm than help. Our anecdotes bring to life the concept of experiential learning and its ability to cultivate empathy in those who wish to lend a hand. As we share poignant stories, you'll discover the profound difference culturally competent services can make, especially when facing the entwined challenges of cultural, financial, or familial constraints. It's a chapter that will leave you contemplating the delicate balance between aiding and empowering.

Guess speaker:
Shelly Clevenger
@shellyclevenger
https://news.illinoisstate.edu/2020/02/shelly-clevenger-named-recipient-of-rives-award/
Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Victimology-Shelly-Clevenger/dp/1498772846

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  • 
    This podcast is not asubstitute for professional
    
    (00:24):
    mental health care, but we haveresources in our website and
    Instagram to support you in thatsearch.
    Join us for a cozy, feltconversation about mental health
    , personal growth andmindfulness.
    We explore tools to care foryour mind, your body and your
    soul.
    Check the footnotes fordisclaimer, trigger warnings and
    
    (00:46):
    additional resources for eachone of the episodes.
    So grab your favorite cup oftea, coffee or hot chocolate,
    wrap yourself in a warm blanketand find a coffee spot here with
    us to be kind to be brave, loud, loud and strong in your search
    
    (01:06):
    of mental health wellness.
    Welcome to your oasis.
    
    Speaker 2 (01:11):
    Grab your cup of tea or coffee or a warm beverage
    that warms your soul, and have aseat here with us, because
    today I have a guest that I havefollowed for many years and
    kind of like right now.
    Like everybody knows, I'm ageek at heart but I'm also a
    scholar, so I'm totally fumblingright here with Dr Shelley, so
    
    (01:35):
    I'm going to try to keep my cool, but if I go all fangirling,
    you just let me know.
    So what do you know for theaudience that they don't know?
    A lot of them they know I'm ageek and a geek therapist and
    I'm a clinical psychologist.
    But what do you do in a littlebit of your background?
    That way people can connectwith you and understand why I am
    
    (01:57):
    so excited to have you in thepodcast today?
    
    Speaker 3 (02:00):
    Well, I'm very excited to be here.
    So my background is I have aPhD in criminology.
    I work in victim studies rightnow, but in the past I had been
    in a criminal justice departmentteaching.
    I have done lots of differentthings before becoming a
    professor.
    I actually worked at PETAPeople for the Ethical Treatment
    
    (02:23):
    of Animals.
    I worked doing mobile therapyfor children with behavioral
    issues.
    A lot of those had connectionwith the criminal justice system
    and were victims themselves.
    And in my spare time, whichalso kind of is professional too
    , I do a lot of panels atComic-Cons and I do a lot of
    
    (02:46):
    writing and research related tocomic books, which I also use in
    my teaching.
    And I'm a first generationcollege student, which I always
    like to say, and so that helpedkind of shape my journey.
    And then now that I'm aprofessor and a department chair
    , that shapes how I kind of seethe world for our students who
    
    (03:08):
    are coming in, who maybe don'tcome from backgrounds where
    their family were collegeeducated, correct.
    
    Speaker 2 (03:15):
    And I resonate so much with you.
    I'm myself first generationcollege student, a Latina, and
    on top of that we shared thislove for criminal justice.
    I did the Homeland SecurityProgram and I work in human
    trafficking.
    But when I was on my undergradit was for special education and
    
    (03:37):
    I were ABA.
    But the funny thing is Istarted working in advocacy for
    sex offenders that they werecognitive delayed and so I
    thought I was going to go tocriminal justice route.
    But you know, I am more in themental health.
    It resonated with me and thesame I have seen Dr Shelley in
    panels.
    Her writing is exquisite.
    
    (03:58):
    So if you have time, justGoogle her and soak all the info
    , because it's just going tolight you up.
    But today we are going to talkabout mental health and
    victimization and what is avictim or how?
    Because people always think thevictim is somebody that went
    through a very, very traumaticevent, and yes, that's the case.
    
    (04:21):
    But there is different types ofvictimization and different
    types of cycles that people thathave suffered from a traumatic
    event or they have beenvictimized in order to recover.
    So one thing that you know inthe social media is very talk is
    
    (04:42):
    like oh, you have victimmentality when in reality they
    don't even know what that termmeans.
    So can you help us to light upsome understanding about this
    topic?
    
    Speaker 3 (04:52):
    Sure.
    So one of the things that I'veseen in my work and then in
    teaching in this area is noteverybody knows they're a victim
    , even if they've been a victim.
    So when people say, oh, victimmentality, everybody is a victim
    A lot of people who may evenhad serious things happen to
    them, don't even identify.
    
    (05:13):
    The best example I can give iswe have a student who now she
    founded her own nonprofit.
    She works with humantrafficking, but she didn't even
    realize she was a victim ofhuman trafficking until she came
    to Sam Houston and was in aclass where they were talking
    about trafficking and she waslike hey, that's what happened
    
    (05:36):
    to me.
    And so some of our students whocome to our classes they might
    not have associated whathappened to them as abuse, but
    it is so I think too.
    Social media often gets a badrap, but it can help us identify
    things that happen to us.
    It can help us figure outresources.
    
    (05:57):
    It can connect a lot of mystudents who go to work in the
    field of victim services.
    They do online support groupsand that's amazing that we live
    in a world where, if I have aspecific type of victimization
    that there isn't a local supportgroup, I can do a support group
    .
    You know in a different state,even in a different time zone,
    
    (06:20):
    and connect with people, and soI think you know victimization
    is coming a long way.
    It's come a long way in termsof health and services, and
    people are able to figure outwhat they need and how to get it
    .
    
    Speaker 2 (06:36):
    Beautiful.
    Can you tell us a story?
    How do you get into criminaljustice and to this path?
    Because sometimes I feel likethe path chooses us.
    We don't choose the path, kindof.
    So can you tell us the?
    
    Speaker 3 (06:50):
    story.
    Sure, I was just telling thestory the other day to a student
    .
    Um, because people don't thinkI'm a criminal justice professor
    all the time.
    It's the most like people arealways shocked when they see me
    and then they find out what I do.
    So I initially was going to goto FIT for fashion design.
    
    (07:10):
    So that was my initial plan,which maybe aligns with how I
    look, more so than what I do,and so I had spent my whole like
    childhood, high school, sewing,creating my own patterns,
    making things, to have aportfolio, to be able to go to
    fashion design school.
    
    (07:31):
    But then my last semester inhigh school, I took a class that
    was criminology and law andthat class really opened my eyes
    to a lot of things and,similarly to the student that I
    just talked about, I was in thatclass and I had known, kind of
    my origin story, so my mom.
    
    (07:53):
    I grew up a single mom and shehad left domestic violence, so
    her and I were victims ofdomestic violence and I knew
    that.
    But being in that classwhenever the professor was
    talking about like these are thethings that can be done to help
    people these are different jobs, like different services I
    
    (08:13):
    never really thought about itBecause we my mom, left, my mom
    went and lived with my grandma.
    We got out of that situation.
    We didn't seek services, wedidn't go to law enforcement.
    It was it was the 80s.
    It was like a different sort oftimeframe.
    But going through that classand then thinking about who I
    
    (08:33):
    was was like maybe I could dosomething that would mean more
    to me personally than fashionand I still love fashion and I
    still sew, and you know I do allthose things but I just felt
    like I could help people whowere like me or who were going
    through those things, and I hadnever really thought about that
    
    (08:57):
    as a career.
    And so so I changedtrajectories and got my
    undergrad degree in criminology,my master's degree and then my
    PhD, all in criminology.
    How?
    
    Speaker 2 (09:12):
    did it felt, going through being a first generation
    , a lot of the higher educationis kind of like a non-known
    territory and it's not likepeople told you oh, you can
    apply for this scholarship, youcan apply for this mentorship,
    you can apply for thisinternship, you can't stumble to
    it or it's growing pains.
    
    (09:34):
    I was so lucky that I have amentor that putting me under
    their arm and guide me throughthe whole undergrad, graduate
    and doctoral programs.
    But when I came to this countryI came already with an
    education of it's the equivalentof ED, but in here it was like
    
    (09:56):
    nah, just high school, you know.
    
    Speaker 3 (09:59):
    Yeah.
    
    Speaker 2 (10:00):
    And that's what I always tell people when you see
    I don't know the janitor or yourcleaning people, you don't know
    what background they have,because sometimes we have to do
    things just to survive.
    So and that includes victims ofdomestic violence or any kind
    of victim that you sometimeshave to redo your whole life
    because you have to be removedfrom where you were or the
    
    (10:21):
    environment that you were, to beremoved from where you were or
    the environment that you were.
    So can you tell us about howenvironment is crucial to either
    become a good student or getout of a bad situation, or even
    realizing no, I'm beingvictimized?
    This is not the norm outside ofthis little clan.
    
    Speaker 3 (10:41):
    Yeah, and it's so important when you're a victim
    how people respond to you, andthat's the thing that I really
    try to reiterate to my students.
    If you are in a situation whereyou're being victimized or you
    might not know, but it feelswrong, something feels sort of
    icky.
    If you tell someone, how theyreact usually can have a big
    
    (11:06):
    impact.
    So you go to someone and saythis is happening and they don't
    believe you or they blame youor they tell you you're mistaken
    , right, you're confused.
    That can lead to people stayingin that situation, dropping out
    of school if they're in school,getting into worse sort of
    situations than they'recurrently in.
    
    (11:29):
    I think having somebody tosupport you and believe you at
    least one person is crucial andI've seen that with people who
    I've interviewed students of myown they always say, well, this
    one person believed me, um, andso I always try to tell people
    like, just listen and justbelieve them, um, it's a very
    
    (11:53):
    it's.
    It sounds simple, but it'sactually really hard for people
    to do um and not try to fix ityet and not try to fix it yet,
    just listen and be supportive.
    And that's what we see, evenwhen victims are going through
    sort of their healing journey.
    Having support and havingpeople believe in them is often
    
    (12:17):
    what leads them to success.
    
    Speaker 2 (12:20):
    So, to reiterate, one of the biggest propellers to
    not search help or stay in badsituations is that when we do
    have the courage to say toanybody depends on your reaction
    .
    So I say no reaction is noaction and it's OK, just listen
    and sit down.
    I remember a lot of my studentswho I have some that are like
    
    (12:46):
    well, you know, that's how it isin our culture, that's how it
    is.
    You get beat up because that'swhat your parents did, so that's
    what your partner does andthat's what I will do with my
    kids.
    Right, so how can for peoplethat is listening and they're in
    
    (13:06):
    a situation, how they can breakthose chains?
    Because a lot of the timesvictims also are mesh with the
    person or the community due tomoney, culture or even their own
    children.
    Can you tell us how, in yourexperience, how people have
    handled that?
    What is the best outcomes thatsomebody can offer support for
    that?
    
    Speaker 3 (13:25):
    Yeah, it's so hard when it comes to like culture
    and background, whether you knowit doesn't and it.
    I found it to be sort ofuniversal.
    There are different norms thatdifferent people have, and I
    think people have to recognizewhat is right or best for them.
    
    (13:45):
    Right or best for them and thatis hard to step outside of your
    family or your culture, and Ihave seen that.
    I have some research that is sosad I still haven't been able
    to write it up yet because it'svery like I guess triggering is
    
    (14:05):
    the word for me about women whowere raped and became pregnant
    and kept their children for avariety of reasons, and one of
    them was cultural slash,religious of being Catholic,
    being Hispanic, not thinkingthat they could have an abortion
    and or leave their partner whoraped them.
    
    (14:30):
    And so I think people have tofigure out what's right or best
    for them and have to be strongand have courage to go through
    those channels that they need toget out, which you know isn't
    always easy.
    But the thing that I always sayto be able to help people is
    
    (14:51):
    culturally competent serviceswhere someone knows those things
    right, because if you're tryingto help somebody and you're
    different from them and you haveno idea what their life is like
    , you're not going to be able togive them the services that
    they would need, and so I thinktraining is important because
    
    (15:12):
    even me, even if I'm a differentrace or ethnicity than you, if
    I'm aware of the circumstancesthat you're in, I will be better
    informed to help you leavethose kinds of situations or at
    least get the help that you need.
    So I'm always trying to, withmy students, talk about those
    things within victim services,because I think that's what will
    
    (15:34):
    help victims the most is havingsomeone understand them and
    know what they're going throughand then be able to offer some
    things that are actually realand concrete that they can use
    to help themselves Correct.
    
    Speaker 2 (15:47):
    Which brings me to the other side.
    Right, the helpers.
    Right, there's something calledtoxic charity, which in my
    country they do like it's candy,which they come and help you
    with the knowledge that theyhave in their culture and apply
    to the other culture.
    Right, for example, I'm fromGuatemala.
    
    (16:08):
    We have a lot of littlevillages and it's one of the few
    countries that still maintainsa lot of the Mayan culture,
    because we have a lot of stillpopulation that is Mayan and
    indigenous.
    But a lot of Europe and UnitedStates and even Canada comes and
    do services in there.
    
    (16:30):
    The best way that I can describeit is that they come with good
    hearts, good intentions.
    One of the things was like theycome to do recycling and I was
    like you're coming to a placethat doesn't even have water.
    Like, what recycle?
    Right, like I was like, why isthat?
    So I remember I used to take mystudents.
    
    (16:50):
    I did a with my mentor.
    We create this program that itwas sustainability, uh, with uh,
    cultural awareness, and Iliterally we will take the, the
    kiddos from.
    Well, college kids, freshmen.
    I call it, kiddos, because it'slike kindergartner to me,
    because everybody comes indifferent levels.
    But we will go to the city andthen from the city we will go to
    
    (17:12):
    the inner city, then to acounty.
    From the county we will go to avillage and from the village we
    go to the real, real village.
    So, little by little, they willsee how they lose services and
    they lose basic needs, right Tothe point that one of the kiddos
    I remember this one I alwaysremember because she now has her
    
    (17:34):
    own nonprofit because it hadthat impact on her that she
    washed her hair.
    She just washed her hair,without thinking, in the village
    and she used the whole month ofwater to wash her hair.
    And we have to spend like threedays going downhill to get
    water to the village and thatwas all of us, Right, and it was
    
    (17:55):
    like 20 of us.
    So I, it had such an impactbecause she was like I was so
    selfish and I didn't know I wasgoing to do that.
    So tell us about what do you,when you pick a charity to
    donate, to donate your time,your money, your effort how do
    you make sure that it's not atoxic charity or how do you
    
    (18:17):
    handle that, Because it's verysticky?
    
    Speaker 3 (18:20):
    That is the best question I might've been asked
    because it matters and we have,like I mentioned a student who
    was a victim studies student whocreated her own nonprofit,
    hands of Justice.
    I'm going to give them a shoutout.
    Who founded this organization?
    
    (18:52):
    She has the knowledge, she hasher master's degree in victim
    studies, and the people shehires in her organization are
    also survivors of humantrafficking.
    So it is a organization filledwith and led by people who have
    experienced trafficking, and soI personally do a lot with them
    
    (19:12):
    because they are the survivor orovercomer is the term they like
    led, and to me that mattersbecause they can come at it from
    a different perspective thansomeone who hasn't been in that
    situation.
    
    (19:40):
    I also for me personally I guessit's my biggest thing related
    to charities is I want peoplewho are going to treat people
    who have been victimized withrespect and dignity and not make
    them feel bad, which seems sosimple that I say that that that
    should happen, but it doesn'thappen in every charity or every
    organization, and so Hands ofJustice does that for the folks.
    
    (20:03):
    One of the things that they dothat I love is they have a
    dignity boutique, and when Iknow when someone comes in.
    They get to go into theboutique and it's all new
    clothes, it's all new bathproducts, like jewelry,
    everything is brand new, justlike going to a store and the
    
    (20:23):
    person can go in there and getlike a new start and that's the
    kind of thing.
    It might seem small but it'sgiving that person's like life
    back and it also gives theirlife meaning and it's you know,
    you feel that through thisorganization.
    So when I'm looking atorganizations that I align
    myself with, that's what I careabout is like kindness to people
    
    (20:49):
    who have been victimized.
    
    Speaker 2 (20:51):
    Right.
    The other tip is, like, youknow, if you don't donate your
    time but you donate your money,I always make sure what
    percentage of that purchase or X, y and Z goes to that
    organization, for example, for,is dear to my heart, like young
    adults that suffer from cancer,right, because I am part of that
    
    (21:13):
    population.
    So when pink happens everyOctober, right, I was like, not
    everything that's pink gothrough the same thing, right?
    So always check the percentagethat the company's donating,
    because, say, we donate to thischarity, right, and you see that
    is 1-2%.
    That is not this charity, right, and you see that it's 1%, 2%,
    that is not a lot, right?
    
    (21:33):
    Also, sometimes it's better thatyou donate your own money
    yourself versus a big company ora big store box, as I call it.
    Yeah, they always ask you doyou want to donate for the
    children?
    Do you want to donate this andthat?
    And that's part of the dignity,right?
    When I work with people with,uh, disabilities, one of the
    
    (21:54):
    things that used to irk me ishow they parade them in order to
    , to, to get money, right, whichI was like that that is not
    dignifying for them.
    And when I used to work with myhuman trafficking teams and why
    not?
    one of the things, uh, that Ifound that was so healing for
    them, it was creating costumes,because they were able to create
    
    (22:16):
    their own superhero or villains, some of them they want to be
    villains because they never hadthe autonomy to dress themselves
    and that's um piggyback to thatis like how I, how I love a
    sense of uh fashion design, ifyou will.
    For for dr shelly, today I'mwearing all my geeky stuff
    
    (22:36):
    because you look great, I havemy like you know, my uh layout
    t-shirt.
    I love it I love it in mycomics.
    So if you haven't followed drshelly, go, it's just a delight
    to see her.
    If you're a geeky person orjust a fashion person, her
    fashion is like I always likewhere do you buy that?
    And she always will say I madeit, I made it and I made that.
    
    (22:59):
    So can you tell us now, to makeit a little more light, how did
    you get involved into geekculture?
    How did you get into comic-conand all that fun stuff?
    
    Speaker 3 (23:10):
    sure, um, I've always been the way that I am now.
    Um, so I always tell mystudents because Marvel is
    popular, now right, like Marvelis big bucks like it's,
    everybody loves it.
    Uh, back in the 80s it wasn'tcool to like the Incredible Hulk
    nobody there weren't any movies, like there was the tv show,
    
    (23:33):
    but, um, I started reading thehall in 1989.
    Um, I've always been a fan ofcomics.
    They sold them at the newsstand.
    I was from a really rural area,pennsylvania, and so they
    didn't have a comic shop, butthey sold comics at the
    newsstand and so I would readcomics at the newsstand.
    
    (23:54):
    I read like but like you know,nerdy books like Lord of the
    Rings, before it had the movies,right, like there were the kids
    reading the books and I'vealways loved Star Trek and Star
    Wars and I even read the books,not just the movie.
    You know, like I'm very, I wasalways very nerdy and that
    wasn't cool for a really longtime.
    
    (24:14):
    Now it's cool to have these youknow affinities for these
    things, but I've always beeninto those, those kinds of
    things, and I was so happy thatcosplay kind of caught on and
    it's acceptable.
    Now.
    I just told a story the otherday about going to see the
    Phantom Menace when it releasedin theaters 25 years ago and we
    
    (24:37):
    were dressed up but nobody elsewas.
    So it wasn't as accepted, youknow, or as mainstream, and so
    I'm happy to see it.
    I'm happy to see the Marvelmovies.
    I'm happy to see the cosplay.
    I'm happy to see it.
    I'm happy to see the Marvelmovies.
    I'm happy to see the cosplay.
    I'm happy to see all of thenerd culture, especially being
    inclusive of women.
    Within the last like 10 to 15years, we've seen women being at
    
    (25:01):
    the forefront, just like theshirt you have on right, like
    the lounge flies, everything isbeing targeted more towards
    women, which I think is greattoo.
    So I've always been into thisstuff.
    I'm just glad to see you knowit's made its way out into the
    world and into the public,because I just love it and how
    
    (25:25):
    do you combine it with yourstudies and with your classes?
    I'm so glad you asked that.
    So my students read comic booksin class.
    I use comic books in my courses.
    So my students read theIncredible Hulk 312, which has
    aspects of domestic violence init.
    So they get to see kind of theorigin story of why the Hulk is
    
    (25:48):
    so angry, because he and hismother are victims of domestic
    violence.
    Students like love that.
    They have no idea why the Hulkis angry.
    They just assumed he just was.
    So I use that.
    I also use an Avengers comicthat has domestic violence in it
    , which they love.
    You know these kind ofbackstories related to comics.
    
    (26:10):
    And we also will create our owncomics, which has been wonderful
    , where students have createdcomics that express something
    related to crime.
    And we have partnered withlocal homeless shelters and also
    children's groups to actuallyprint the comic books and then
    
    (26:33):
    go and give it to the children,which has been awesome.
    So we did cyber safety.
    So my area is like cybervictimization.
    So we did, and it was a cybercrime class.
    So we created a cyber comic andwe went to the homeless shelter
    and talked about like safetyonline, which was amazing.
    
    (26:53):
    And so students do comic books,storybooks, and that's been
    really great.
    
    Speaker 2 (26:59):
    And I use a lot of examples which, now that I'm
    getting older, I'm going to haveto change some of that, because
    students haven't seen thosemovies, um, you know, but I try
    to incorporate it as much aspossible within my courses, um,
    and I just, I love thatconnection and, uh, I work with
    
    (27:25):
    aptitude first responders andlaw enforcement in my clinic and
    a lot of the times 99% of thetime they cannot talk to a lot
    of things that happen to them orwhat happened or what they have
    done, but a movie and a comicbook can tell me everything and
    also it helps them to findredemption, because even the
    
    (27:46):
    villains have redemption and,and you know, sometimes I always
    , I always say we're the villainof somebody's story and the
    hero of somebody that we don'teven know, because we all have
    the same traits that they have.
    And I love that you say aboutsafety online, because we use a
    lot of I use a lot of videogames and why not?
    
    (28:06):
    For therapy and therapeuticbenefits, and one of the things
    that parents always tell me islike how I make sure my kid is
    safe and they video game worldor online.
    So, since you touch on that,can you give us a little quick
    tips?
    Or if you have any kind of likepamphlet or something, I can
    always put it in, download it inthe notes.
    
    (28:28):
    But can you give a quick nuggetof interest for people to, for
    parents, mostly parents becauseyou know, like you say, what we
    used to be dangerous for usdoesn't even exist.
    
    Speaker 3 (28:42):
    So you know and it depends, everybody has a
    different like parentingstrategy or things that they're
    
    (29:04):
    comfortable with or not.
    Parents or my students have putin informational items that
    we've distributed is to talk toyour kids honestly about what is
    online and about people sendingyou, you know, direct messages
    offering different opportunities.
    We'll say, like for a lot ofgirls, they think that if they
    get information about a modelingshoot or to be an actress, that
    that could you know, that itcould be legit, but it also
    
    (29:25):
    could not be.
    So, talking about differentdangers online, one of the more
    I guess I'll use the wordcontroversial things that we
    talk about is monitoringchildren's cell phones, and so
    that has been something thatpeople have really strong
    feelings about monitoring notjust their location but what
    
    (29:47):
    they're doing online, and sothat's something people like to
    have lots of discussions aboutwhether or not we should monitor
    what our children are doingonline.
    But I think making childrenaware about those things and one
    of the things that I do with myown daughter and I talked to my
    
    (30:08):
    students about is it's not juststrangers online that you need
    to be wary of.
    And then my specific area isrelated to images, so I will
    talk my daughter's only nine.
    But I'm like you do not sendimages to people, to your
    friends.
    You cannot, you know, postthings, um, and talking about
    
    (30:29):
    the realities of um, you knowwhat can happen to images that
    like are sexual or, um, maybenot even sexual in nature, but
    where you're not wearing clothes, those kinds of things, because
    you know things can be on theinternet and be taken down but
    
    (30:50):
    that doesn't mean that they goaway Right, which it's a scary
    terrain as a parent thinkingabout those things, and so I
    think you just have to give yourchildren the information so
    they can try to make the bestdecisions.
    
    Speaker 2 (31:07):
    And what do you think about?
    You know social media andkiddos.
    Right Now we have a lot ofsocial media that is actually
    driven by the kids.
    Like you have a lot of accountsthat is, you just go and watch
    kids doing kids life and peopleis very polarized about that.
    Yeah, right, um.
    So what the?
    
    (31:28):
    What are your thoughts orexperience?
    Um with that subject,especially because it's kind of
    related to cyber uh bully, cybersecurity and why?
    
    Speaker 3 (31:36):
    not, it sure is so and I'm very aware having a
    nine-year-old.
    She watches children like doingthe most random things on the
    like.
    You know the YouTube channeland I think it can be positive.
    I'm going to start with thepositive.
    I think it can be positive forkids to see other kids doing
    
    (31:57):
    things that they do and theyfeel connected to them.
    It's real.
    It's not necessarily scripted,it's not all negative.
    I do see the positives.
    The I guess negatives from acyber standpoint is you know,
    those kids who are on thoseYouTube videos or have those
    accounts don't have the privacy.
    
    (32:18):
    They could potentially bevictimized in a lot of different
    ways, online and also in person.
    So my research looks at theconnection between in-person and
    online victimization andthey're not separate.
    So my concern because mydaughter wants to have her own
    
    (32:39):
    YouTube channel and I was likeyou will never have your own
    YouTube channel because peoplecan find you in real, in the
    real world, and I know peopledon't like to think about that,
    but they can, and so I'm overlycautious it's probably because
    
    (32:59):
    I'm the victim studiesdepartment chair and I know all
    the ways people are victimized.
    But you know, I think you justhave to be careful and figure
    out what would work for you,right?
    Like I said, I'm overprotectivejust because I know all the
    things that can happen, right,for what we were seeing.
    
    Speaker 2 (33:19):
    Yeah, if, if people didn't know like you can find
    location just by clicking inyour pictures and stuff like
    that.
    So always be aware, I say themore bagged baggage, oh, the
    more I'm beat with the thebackground looks better.
    Never say where you located andstuff like that.
    You know some things that wesay, oh, it's common sense.
    
    (33:39):
    No, it's not, because whenyou're with your friends and a
    lot of kiddos perceive this asfriendships, like parasocial
    friendships, right, one-sided,um, they will tell everything to
    the people that is watchingbecause it's that.
    And then, of course, we havethe discussion of the
    victimization of, like the kidsnever consented, like the little
    , tiny, tiny ones that are beingum thing, which brings to point
    
    (34:02):
    three, ai and all the dramathat has come with that, right,
    so what kind of precautions canyou recommend?
    Or what kind of like justeducation that you can offer to
    go people to go read to anyparent that is concerned about
    that, or even any adult that isconcerned about that, about ai?
    
    (34:25):
    yeah, because, you know, with ai, now you can change, you can
    put your face in anything yes,um, you can.
    
    Speaker 3 (34:33):
    So I feel like the internet has given us a lot of
    wonderful things, but it's alsomade it like worse than any
    horror movie that we could haveever thought of, like 20 years
    ago.
    You know, and there's no easyanswer at all, like I wish that
    I had a better answer, otherthan to do the best that you can
    
    (34:58):
    by educating yourself oreducating your kids, because
    it's not going to go away.
    I always joke that, like whenthe robots take over, I want
    them to know that I'm robotfriendly Because, you know, the
    technology advances very quicklyand we, you know, are limited
    
    (35:20):
    in what we can and can't do.
    So you need to understand whatthe technology means, what
    you're, what you're doing, whatyou're putting out there, and so
    one of the things that I'lltell parents or kids think about
    whatever you're posting orsharing, would you be fine with
    anybody seeing that?
    Anybody, because just becauseit's private or just because you
    
    (35:44):
    limit your account to friends,people can take screenshots,
    people can save it.
    Would you be okay witheverybody in the world seeing
    those things?
    And if the answer is no, thenmaybe don't post it.
    You know, and not everybodythinks that far ahead of time,
    or young kids aren't, you know,developmentally develop.
    They don't have the developmentin their brains to think about
    
    (36:06):
    long term consequences the waythat we may.
    But just to be careful, andeverything that has to do with
    the Internet.
    That's my best advice.
    
    Speaker 2 (36:16):
    And I always do the young to the college students.
    I always tell them because it'strue, they don't think it
    passed tomorrow, right, becausewhy?
    What would they?
    Uh?
    But I always say it wasdifferent and say would you like
    to see your mom or your grandmadoing that?
    
    Speaker 3 (36:30):
    yeah, like that's a good one, I'll have to do that.
    
    Speaker 2 (36:33):
    Yeah, that's right, because they're like ew, no and
    I'm like there you go, then wemaybe should not post it.
    And then the the other thing islike it was still like okay,
    that message and the messagethat disappears, will you send?
    If your grandma sent you that,will you be comfortable with it?
    Or if you're the, I always askthem what is the person that you
    
    (36:54):
    don't like?
    Because we always have somebodyright and it's like will you
    like that person to send youthat?
    And then they were like no,okay, they're watching it.
    So think about that when youpost certain things, or when
    even you say certain things.
    Right, so to wrap it up, canyou leave us with any kind of
    nuggets that you would like tofor our audience to know, or any
    
    (37:18):
    kind of preventative care,anything that you would like to
    share with the audience?
    
    Speaker 3 (37:22):
    Yeah, I think you know, whatever it is that you
    are doing within your life, tofind something that brings you
    some joy, to be able to dealwith those things, whether
    you're a victim, whether youwork with victims, whether you
    work in a job that's stressfulor hard to find joy.
    So for us, we have our nerdculture, which brings us a lot
    
    (37:47):
    of joy, and the number onequestion I get is how do you do
    this sad job where it's victimsall day, every day, and teaching
    about victims and interviewingvictims?
    And the answer is well, like Ihave, like comic books and
    sewing and like you know, all ofthe things that kind of make me
    
    (38:08):
    happy outside of work, and somy, I guess, parting wisdom
    would be to find your joy andhold on to it tight joy and hold
    on to it tight, very good.
    
    Speaker 2 (38:26):
    So, as you hear, find your joy, and that is all what
    we have here in our ACEScommunity.
    Find a community that resonateswith you either sewing, comic
    books, tea, coffee, x, y and Z.
    Pick a community that lightsyou up and it's also.
    You don't have to stay just inone community, you can play with
    different ones, right?
    I have my nerd community, Ihave my psychology community, I
    
    (38:46):
    have my reinforcement communityand I also have my tea community
    .
    You know we all are.
    I'm a dog mom, so I have mydoggie community, which I know
    you also have a doggie, a littlebeautiful pug.
    So if people want to go findyou because, again, one of the
    things that brings me joy isjust seeing Dr Shelley's outfits
    it's like I'm like, oh my gosh,I want to be her when I grow up
    
    (39:09):
    , kind of thing, um, becauseyour sense of style is like, so,
    like into, like I want thatkind of thing, um.
    So can you let us know where wecan find you?
    Or if people want to connectwith you, sure, um.
    
    Speaker 3 (39:24):
    So I'm on the Sam Houston State University
    Department of Victim Studieswebsite, so that's my official
    if you want to reach me throughum my job.
    And then I'm on Instagram andTwitter and Facebook, um, where
    I do post a lot of outfit photos.
    Um, you can find me there aswell.
    
    Speaker 2 (39:45):
    In the notes of the podcast you will have all the
    links, and also in Oroisa'sInstagram.
    Thank you so much, TuckerShelley.
    This was delightful and I hopethis is the one of many times
    coming to the podcast.
    
    Speaker 3 (39:57):
    Oh, thanks for having me, it was wonderful.
    
    Speaker 1 (40:01):
    As we conclude today's episode, take a moment
    to reflect.
    Be proud of the journey, forevery step that brings you
    closer to who you truly are.
    Embrace the kindness towardsyourself, as you did to each one
    of our guests.
    Yourself, as you did to eachone of our guests, honor the
    
    (40:25):
    bravery in your actions andcelebrate the importance of
    mental wellness with us.
    And remember it's an exercisethat we practice daily.
    Continue to grow and flourish,knowing that we are in this
    training for our mental wellnesstogether.
    We are so proud to have you aspart of our community, so join
    us on Instagram at OasisCommunity Podcast for more
    
    (40:49):
    inspiring conversations,valuable resources and supported
    content, including journals,worksheets and content in
    Spanish.
    Exciting things are in thehorizon.
    Our Oasis community break roomsare coming soon to grab tools
    and take a break for your mentalhealth.
    Also, we are featuring oursix-month training ethical
    
    (41:13):
    mental health coaching program,designed for new and experienced
    coaches, as well as holisticand healing professionals.
    Enroll to create a safe andtransformative experience to
    your clients.
    Links in the bio.
    Until next time, take care,stay connected and welcome to
    
    (41:34):
    our Oasis community.