What happens when you walk the opposite path of the "influencer to evangelical pipeline"? As someone who spent 16 years as a minister with a nearly-completed Master's of Divinity, my journey away from evangelicalism toward a more liberated spirituality offers a powerful counternarrative to what we often see in today's culture.
The evangelical world I inhabited taught me I was fundamentally flawed—a "worm" in need of constant redemption. This theology created an environment where shame, guilt, and hopelessness flourished despite my genuine love for God. I felt trapped in a system where my happiness depended entirely on divine whim rather than my own agency or choices. The breaking point came when I realized I couldn't sustain the weight of perpetual inadequacy, especially within a troubled marriage and restrictive ministry.
My spiritual evolution didn't mean abandoning faith—rather, it meant expanding it. I discovered that principles of manifestation and the law of attraction could coexist beautifully with my Christian beliefs. God created natural laws like gravity; why not also laws governing how our thoughts shape reality? This revelation transformed how I approach gratitude, sexuality, and hope itself. Instead of deferring joy to some heavenly future, I began experiencing divine love and abundance in the present moment.
The contrast between my former and current spiritual understanding is perhaps most evident in my relationship with my body and sexuality. Evangelical purity culture created unbearable shame around natural desires, while my current understanding celebrates sexuality as a divine gift meant for pleasure and connection within contexts of safety and consent. This liberation hasn't made me "apostate" as some might claim—it's brought me closer to the God who created pleasure itself.
For anyone navigating their own spiritual deconstruction or questioning rigid religious frameworks, know that curiosity is sacred.
Ready to explore more? Follow my Substack "Out Here Thriving" where I continue unpacking these themes, and check out my book "Grace Actually: Memoirs of Love, Faith, Loss, and Black Womanhood."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I saw this YouTube video the other day that popped
up on my feed and it said theinfluencer to evangelical
pipeline is real and it had apicture of Kelly Stamps.
So not sure if you guys followher.
She has like the stampede.
She was a very fast growingYouTuber many years ago and as
of the last I guess, coupleyears maybe I haven't followed
her as closely.
She started like really talkingabout becoming an evangelical
(00:23):
Christian.
So I clicked on the video andI'll see if I can find the link.
I'll link it if you'reinterested and it showed like
basically a bunch of examples ofa lot of influencers who who
become like increasinglyevangelical as their fan base
has grown and as their platformhas grown.
And I just thought it was kindof funny and interesting because
I feel like I've done theopposite.
I was very, very evangelical atone point in my life, like I
(00:47):
was actually a minister and Iwas getting a degree, a master's
of divinity, just to show youhow like ingrained in that world
I was.
And now I have since walkedaway from that in some ways.
It's what people call anex-evangelical, evangelical
proximate, a decolonizedChristian.
(01:10):
There's people who have walkedaway completely.
Some Christians would call meapostate, which is frankly,
ridiculous, but that's a termthat evangelicals use to
describe people who have kind ofwalked away from their faith,
which I have not walked awayfrom my faith, I've only walked
away from evangelicalism.
But anyway, I just thought itwas an interesting dynamic and
(01:31):
so I wanted to talk a little bitabout that and my journey with
that, because maybe that's thejourney you're on.
There's a ton of peopledecolonizing their faith and
just going in a completelydifferent direction, frankly.
And then I also wanted to talka little bit about the
differences and the similaritiesand the overlap between, kind
of some of the new age spiritualmovements and where I land on
(01:54):
that, because I have definitelybecome increasingly more open to
all types of spirituality asI've decolonized my face in the
last not my face, my face in thelast few years.
So, yeah, that's what today isgoing to be talking about.
So, if you're interested inthis or have thought about, like
(02:15):
, for example, learning moreabout the law of attraction, or
wondering if it's okay as aChristian, someone who believes,
who has been raised in thechurch and still has some level
of belief, if it's even okay.
I'm not the guru on any of this, of course, but I have had a
lifetime of experience with atleast evangelicalism and I think
(02:37):
I have something to offer.
That's what I'm trying to say.
But first let me introducemyself and the podcast to you.
My name is Grace Sandra.
I'm an author, an advocate andan activist, and a mom.
This podcast is a hope-orientedstorytelling space.
It is a warm hug of solidarityfrom me to you.
It is a celebration of ourresilience Come on somebody.
And our determination to notonly survive but thrive.
(02:59):
Welcome to episode 22.
Welcome to episode 22.
But first let me tell y'all astory.
I realized at some point thatevangelicalism, at least the way
that it is taught in a veryconservative manner.
Now I realized that right now,the evangelicals have lost their
(03:22):
ever-loving goddamn mind.
Okay, they have lost their mind.
Right now, the christiannationalists have lost it.
So try to, as you listen tothis episode, try to separate
people who are considerthemselves to be evangelical but
not part of, like, the cultmovement of christian
nationalists that have electedthe orange demon orangutan and
who have who who spew all sortsof hate.
(03:44):
Now, of course, there areevangelicals who do the same
thing too, but I'm talking about, like, a more moderate
evangelical, as I kind of posethis.
So, for example, when I wasdoing ministry for 16 years
combined I was probably part ofthat moderate evangelical crowd
where we preached, you know,pro-life, but it wasn't like we
(04:07):
were going to BOMB an abortionclinic, you know.
And I was very much about purityculture when I was in that
evangelical movement and reallyfirmly believed that no one
should have sex outside ofmarriage ever for any reason.
Now I'm so far from that it'sactually crazy.
But it was also about justice.
(04:29):
So we believed.
And when I say we, this is likepart of the campus ministry I
was a part of, I was alsomarried to another minister, so
we were teaching and trainingand doing that kind of work
together.
So that's kind of, when I saywe, I'm talking about both mine
and his marriage, and also thatthe ministry I was working with
and what I was teaching myself.
(04:49):
I had been raised Baptist,which is very strict, you know,
girls shouldn't show their knees, kind of thing.
That's the church I was raisedin and I also went to a private
Christian school where that kindof stuff was taught.
But when I got to campusministry it was much more
liberal than when I was going tolike in Baptist spaces like I
(05:10):
could actually wear pants andyou know, and at least the
campus ministry I was a part ofwas really about racial
reconciliation and kind of wasdoing like BLM kind of stuff
before BLM was BLM.
So that's the kind of likemoderate evangelical I'm talking
of just as a preface.
Okay, I just had to start overfor the third time, so I feel
(05:33):
like this episode needs to getout.
Whenever there's problems, I'mlike it's important, so anyway.
So what interested me aboutpeople going from influencer to
evangelical was that you know,these people have found Jesus,
they've, they say they're,they're finding hope and joy and
love and I'm, you know,honestly, really happy for them
and I hope that the faithjourney makes them very happy.
(05:55):
But for me, going fromevangelical to influencer which
I'm using that phrase kind ofironically but for me reversing
that I wanted to talk about thebenefits that I've experienced
from leaving moderateevangelical world to kind of
where I am now and then maybesome of that compare and
(06:15):
contrast.
But one of the things that Iremember feeling a lot when I
was in the moderate evangelicalspaces was just a lot of guilt
and shame.
There's just a ton of guilt andshame around, particularly sex
and sexuality, but almosteverything else too.
Because you know, one of thepremises of modern day
evangelicalism is that you are aworm.
(06:38):
You know there's songs like CSLewis used to say that, but
there are songs that talk aboutyou know, woe is me, like I'm a
sinner and I need to repent.
But that kind of thinking andI'm not going to go into any
sort of theological anythingabout a lot of this stuff, I'm
just going to do a basicoverview because that kind of
thinking can really lead you tofeel like you are a horrible
person most of the time and thatthe only time you are ever a
(07:02):
good person is when you areliterally like on your knees
asking for repentance.
Different people have differentviews about what that looked
like for me and how I was kindof raised up in this world to be
an evangelical.
Basically, once you confessedyour sins and believed in your
heart that Jesus forgave you,that you were, you're forgiven
by the blood of Jesus on thecross, that he died for your
(07:22):
sins, so you could alwaysexperience redemption.
By the blood of Jesus on thecross, that he died for your
sins, so you could alwaysexperience redemption.
You know I was taught and Iboth.
I was taught and I taughtthere's redemption possible at
all points, but there is stillthat underlying feeling that you
are a bad, a very bad person.
So for me, one of the ways thatI thought was very interesting
among many, many, many otherways that I feel like a more
(07:45):
happy, at peace, evolved personsince leaving evangelicalism, is
that, as I've mentioned beforehere on my podcast, I struggled
really bad, and evangelicalismfueled this.
I struggled very, very, verybadly with negative self-talk,
telling myself all the time thatI was a horrible sinner and
(08:05):
that I was blankety, blankety,blankety, blankety, blank piece
of shit, and the messaging wasconstant.
The messaging of that wasconstant no matter where I was,
whether it was with the campusministry I was with or whether I
was at church, and also when Iwas at home.
That was an issue that I had inmy marriage to my evangelical
minister husband was just alwaysfeeling like you are a pile of
(08:26):
shit.
And one of the ways that I feellike moving away from that and
into like manifestation, whatsome would call like more new
age teaching, is this idea thatwe are all good, that we're born
good, that we are born withlove, that we are love and we
are capable of love and that wegasp deserve love.
(08:49):
Now you know, christianitywould also say, yes, you deserve
it, but it's only through thelens of if you fully believe
everything.
It's only through the lens ofif you believe that you know
God's creation is perfect and itwas, to me, always at odds with
, but you're telling me I'm likea nasty sinner and I deserve
nothing.
So I just kind of want to listoff to you the things that have
(09:10):
changed in my life since movingto that.
One is is that I stoppedtalking negatively to myself.
Once I started to believe that Ideserve good things, and when I
was in moderate evangelicalismand when I was in moderate
evangelicalism, I did notbelieve that I deserved good
things it took quite a bit ofre-brainwashing.
I was going to say rebrandingyeah, that's not probably the
(09:33):
right word Rebrainwashing myselfinto just believing like, okay,
yeah, I am a good person.
Before it just didn't hit.
People would say, oh, you'remade in the image of God.
It just didn't hit because Ifelt like, frankly, sir, you're
gaslighting me because you'retelling me that I'm made in the
(09:53):
image of God, but I'm also anevil worm because I want to have
sex before I am gasped in amarriage.
I didn't get around a whole lotwhen I was younger, but I knew
that it was a lot of hornymotherfuckers out here and a lot
of people want to have sex andI understood that that felt like
an unreasonable thing to do, tomake people feel like shit for
such a basic need and drive and,almost in a bodily intuition,
(10:19):
to create people.
Honestly, I could stop there interms of what's been the most
like healing for me.
But, girl, going from believingthat you don't deserve any good
thing and that any good thingyou ask for you have to beg for
mercy to get and it's alwaysoutside of your control, like
that's how I felt.
(10:40):
Like it's up to God whether ornot I get this really good thing
that I want and it's really ona whim.
Maybe maybe he'll give it to me, maybe he won't, but it's
really completely out of myhands.
All I can do is pray.
And then where I'm at now isthat I believe that we have some
manner, scientifically speaking, of control about what we bring
(11:01):
into our field, what we bringinto our vortex, that it is
literally scientificallypossible for us to manifest the
life and attract the life thatwe want through how we process
our thoughts and the importanceof our thoughts and our brain,
and there are scientific reasonsbehind it.
It's not woo-woo like I thoughtit was at one point, but it's
(11:22):
also not at just the whim of God, because I still believe in God
.
But it's also a another aspectthat really changed for me when
I was in my evangelical days wasthis idea of gratitude.
So I did keep a great.
I did write five things that Iwas thankful for every day.
Way back when I started thatpractice like in like 2009 or
(11:43):
something like that so it's beena long time and I was doing
spiritual direction at thatpoint and I was meeting with the
spiritual director once a monthand she encouraged me to start
writing down five things I wasthankful for every day to thank
God for.
It was more kind of like a rotepractice.
The practice for me was aboutbuilding my relationship with
God and making sure that Godknows that I appreciated
(12:06):
everything he had done for me.
It didn't, it was.
It was good, like I really do.
I feel like it helped a littlebit in some ways and I don't
think there's ever a wrong wayto do a gratitude practice.
But now, what I've learned fromnew age teachers, when I do
gratitude it's actually moreabout getting into the feeling
of really processing why I'm sothankful for the good things
(12:30):
that I have.
I'm so thankful, for example,like that, I have my cat on my
lap.
I don't know if you can see hislittle head right there.
There you go.
Hey, harley, You're so cute.
You might even be able to hearhim purring.
It's like really appreciating,like the feeling of him on my
lap and him purring just feelsvery calming.
Or when I went out for a walkyesterday and the sun was
(12:51):
shining and I was getting thedopamine from the sun and from
the walk and from being outsideand I was listening to a good
book, and I'm thankful and I'mtrying to express like the
gratitude for the feeling ofbeing outside in the air and the
sunshine.
And the difference is is thatbefore everything I was doing,
it always felt like it was for apurpose to serve God, to make
(13:11):
God happy and to be sure thatwe're not triggering some sort
of anger or frustration with usabout what we're doing.
The focus is so behavioral.
When you get into likeevangelical worlds, it's such.
It's so behavioral, almost likeyou're constantly a horse that
needs to be bridled.
That's actually a verse inProverbs somewhere, like don't
be like the horse that has to be, like led by bit and bridle
(13:34):
everywhere it goes, and it'skind of like you have to stay in
control at all times.
Now, I'm not saying that theways that moderate or crazy
evangelicals or anyone inbetween, that the way they're
teaching it is biblical.
But I think that a lot of whatpeople live through, have lived
through in evangelicalism, isnot biblical.
(13:54):
It's just someone's randominterpretation.
That's a wrong interpretation,frankly, of the Bible and I
don't think it's necessarilyright.
But I'm just trying to explainthat's the way that I lived it
that it was so such a behavioralthing.
So even that writing ofgratitude initially for me was
more about like that will makeGod happy, and it was very
(14:15):
difficult to get to where I amnow, where, when I'm writing out
the things I'm grateful for,it's really not about like
pleasing God, for it's reallynot about like pleasing God.
It's more about like trying tohelp myself really feel the
fullness of the blessings thatGod has given me, the fullness
of being able to walk and use mylegs and get outside and get
the sunshine and the fullness ofhaving like a living sentient
(14:38):
being sitting on my lap rightnow or having like a hot cup of
coffee in front of me andthanking God like that's a
blessing that you gave me.
Thank you, and I'm telling Godthat I'm feeling it and it's
lifting my vibration and it'snot to get like a pat on the
back and there's just adifferent motivation I'm finding
(14:58):
and it's much more peaceful onthis side than it was on that
side.
Another area that's been hugefor me actually is the sex and
sexuality piece, because beforeI really firmly believed and I
do not peace-filled on this sidethan it was on that side
Another area that's been hugefor me actually is the sex and
sexuality piece, because beforeI really firmly believed and I
do not think there is any otherI do not think anymore that
there is a actual biblicalmandate that states that you
cannot and should not have sexoutside of marriage.
(15:19):
I also don't believe thatthere's any sort of biblical
mandate that being a drag queenis a sin or being trans is a sin
or being gay is a sin, and Ithink a lot of those scriptures
have been taken out of context,by people who wanted to use the
scripture to control people inthe same way that they tried to
use the Bible to, and that theydid use the Bible to prove to
(15:42):
black people that we should beslaves.
Ok, so we know that people willpick and choose, pick and
cherry, pick what passages ofscripture they want to say, what
they want to say, and nowthere's just a lot more voices
and a lot more helpfulinterpretations of scripture,
and I do not believe anywherebiblically that that is a
(16:02):
mandate for here, now and forall time.
Actually, a lot of the thingsthat are mandates are people,
are things that people,especially Christian
nationalists, don't want to talkabout.
The fact that the Bible saysthat we should love the poor
like 2000 times, that we shouldwelcome the immigrant like a
million times I mean not amillion, but you know what I'm
saying that we should care aboutthe oppressed, that we should
(16:24):
care about marginalizedcommunities and that we should
give a lot of our money away.
Those are four big things inscripture that are brought up
over and over and over and overand over again, ad nauseum.
But what does everyone want tofocus on?
Who's somebody having sex with?
How will they identify?
What are their pronouns?
(16:45):
It's just so ridiculous.
It's such a ridiculous abuse ofpower, anyway.
So one of the things that Irealized as I divested from
evangelicalism is that I amgoing to live openly and freely
with my sexuality and not holdany sort of guilt and shame
(17:07):
about this very natural thing byour desires as well, and I
firmly believe that we should,as adults, consenting adults,
practice safe and consensual sexwhen we want to, but who, what
(17:27):
gender, what parts that showbusiness, and marriage should
not have anything to do with it.
That's where I'm at now andbefore, whereas anything and
everything that had anything todo with sexuality while I was
living as a evangelical waslayered with guilt and shame, so
(17:49):
many layers and even while Iwas married, it just became such
a huge thing.
So, for example, if I had adesire to sleep with someone
else while I was married, now gowith me, go with me, go with me
, just keep riding with me.
On this point, that was seen asso evil and I felt so evil.
As opposed to where I'm at now,I think desire is very natural
(18:13):
and normal, and it would be verydifficult for anyone anyone on
this planet, no matter thegender or non-binary, to not
have any desire because you'rewith a partner.
So, whereas now whereas beforethat was seen as evil now what I
see it as is, oh, this is anatural part of who I am.
I don't need to reject it.
I can listen to it, I can talkit through, like we can always
(18:37):
make decisions that aredifferent than our desires.
Right, we can always makedecisions that are different
than our desires, right?
We can always make decisionsthat are different than our
feelings.
We don't have to let ourfeelings or our desires have
power over us, right?
So I'm not in a committedrelationship.
But if I were in a committedrelationship and I had a desire
and, depending on how it waswith my partner, I would love if
I was in a long term exclusivepartnership, if we could just
(18:57):
talk to each other about it,like hey, yeah, I have, I was
looking at so-and-so and he waslooking good, I'm not going to
do anything about that.
But I also don't have to feellike this heavy amount of shame
that is like literallyunbearable to carry, because you
feel like you've alreadybetrayed someone just by having
you know that desire and thosedesires are part of our humanity
(19:21):
and part of our sexuality, justin general.
So, yeah, becoming a evolved, asexually evolved woman who is,
you know, taking ownership of mysexuality, who is following my
desire, allowing myself to dokind of what I want to do again,
as long as it's safe,consensual consenting adults,
(19:42):
I'm kind of allowing myself toreally just like relish in the
freedom of that, in that, like,I am perfectly normal, healthy
woman who is experiencing all ofthe beauty and fullness of what
it means to go throughwomanhood and go through, you
know, puberty, have a period,have my babies what's happened
(20:05):
since?
Be in perimenopause, havesexual peaks and you know all of
the different things thathormones are doing to my body.
That's a whole other subject.
Child, but girl, you know whatI'm saying Like there's a very
full, there's a big fullness toa woman's sexual experience and
I feel like it's so sad to methis is why the influencer to
(20:26):
evangelical pipeline is sad tome Like, yeah, even the thing
with Kelly Stamps, it's justkind of sad to me.
It's always really sad to me tosee a woman who's owned her
sexuality I'm not talking aboutKelly right now, I'm just
talking about in general to allof a sudden be like, yeah, I
decided to follow this faith andnow I have to cover up every
part of my body, that, the bodythat God gave me.
(20:46):
Now I have to see sex as a badthing.
Now I have to stop having sex,stop these desires and
completely go hermit mode andprobably going to end up feeling
shit when they don't do it.
Because there's anotherinfluencer type who just
recently declared that she foundJesus.
She was on Netflix Too Hot toHandle.
(21:07):
Her name was Christine,something I actually like.
Her, followed her like, lovedher journey on Too Hot to Handle
and then she went on thePerfect Match and I follow her
online because she gives goodlike mixed girl, curly hair Not
necessarily mixed girl, but likecurly hair tutorials.
And then she starts talkingabout Jesus and I was like
another one bites the dust, likenow she's about to repress her
(21:29):
sexuality, essentially becausethat's what the evangelical to
influence her pipeline.
It seems like what it's doing towomen is just like yep, now go
ahead and repress your sexuality, and I kind of hate to see it.
I really hate to see it Likeyou don't have to do that, you
don't have to be celibate inorder to follow Jesus.
You just really don't.
(21:49):
So I kind of hate to see it andso yeah, and so now I'm at this
place where I feel like thereis no need to even repress.
Why would I repress somethingthat God gave me?
That's good.
I actually just saw the otherday I must have put it on
Facebook or something.
I hope I can find it, becauseit was like months ago that I
put it on Facebook, but it was awhole article that someone
wrote about the clitoris and howthe clitoris literally has no
(22:13):
other point but to be pleasured.
It is there for nothing else.
There's nothing else.
It's good for it does not havea purpose other than woman's
pleasure, and it was justtalking about how, of all the
changes a woman's body makesonce we become women women you
(22:35):
know what I'm saying theclitoris does not change.
It is unchanging honey.
It is like God.
The clitoris does not change.
It is unchanging honey.
It is like God.
The clitoris is unchanging.
And other things change downthere as we age and we go
through perimenopause.
But, baby, that clitoris isgoing to be there when you're 99
.
And it's still going to work.
I mean if your partner knowswhat they're doing, or if you
(22:59):
know what you're doing or yougot the right toys, the clitoris
will still work.
And so you cannot tell me.
There is nobody that can tellme that we're supposed to
repress that clitoris.
Maybe we're not repressing theclitoris?
No, no, no, no, no.
Another big area where I'm justfeeling like I'm in so much of a
better place is hope.
(23:19):
I just can't tell you how much,you know, I felt hope, of
course, when I was evangelical,but a lot of Christianity is
about you experiencing somethingreally good in the afterlife,
like, yeah, in the afterlifeyou'll be really happy, you'll
be completely at peace, you'llbe with people you love, you'll
get to be with Jesus and withGod and the Holy Spirit, and you
(23:39):
will experience joy andliberation.
You know, and the more that Ihave learned about what the
Bible is actually saying andlearned from other faith
teachers who have decolonizedtheir faith.
I'm a Christian, I still dofollow Jesus, but what I can see
(24:01):
now is that that's just a wayof controlling us.
Like, liberation is reallyabout Christianity, really is,
and should be, about liberationright here, right now, and I
think for me that just I don'tknow.
There was definitely hope.
You know, I always had hopeabout the afterlife, but I had
really lost hope that I wouldever be really happy truly on
earth.
In some ways I understood that.
(24:23):
I felt a level of peace becauseI felt loved by God, but I felt
very hopeless.
I think also, you know, thishas to do with the stage of life
.
You know, I had a mom who hadschizophrenia and it was really
stressful and I was in a verystressful marriage and you know,
there came a point where I feltlike I don't know if I'm ever
going to be happy in thismarriage or if I'm just going to
feel miserable all the time.
It wasn't all miserable, butyou know, when it, when it
(24:46):
starts getting bad, it startsgetting bad.
And we were also strugglingfinancially, really bad, because
we were both in campus ministryand we weren't making a lot and
it just it was just, yeah,there was a lot of life that
just felt like a shit show thatI didn't know how to change.
And so I started trying to doextra things, like that's really
why I got like so into mommyblogging, because I really
(25:07):
wanted to make extra money, andI got like so into photography
for a while because I wanted tomake extra money and I just
didn't have any hope or belief.
It was kind of like again atGod's whims, whether or not I
was able to get out of thesituation I was in and, as a
result for me, I left themarriage I was in and left
ministry.
Did that with terror, withshaking, because to me that was
(25:32):
like, based on things peoplewere saying to me as well.
It was kind of like you'redoing the wrong thing by
pursuing your freedom, you'reclearly doing the wrong thing by
divorcing someone who doesn'twant to divorce you back.
You're clearly doing the wrongthing by walking away from
ministry.
And so it was kind of like itwas just I don't know, that was
in some ways, when I look backon that time because that was
2013 when I left ministry, and2014 when I left my ex-husband,
(25:58):
and I felt like I had to gobehind God's back.
I felt like just to pursuefreedom and try to have the life
that I wanted, and I just knewlike this life I'm living is not
one that I can sustain ormaintain.
There was something that I feltthat I've never told anyone ever
and never wrote down.
The way my cat is in the frameright now is actually hilarious
(26:21):
to me.
He's just big, chilling, butanyway, one of the things that I
thought was hold on.
Now it has slipped my mind.
Oh my God, I can't evenremember now.
I forgot what it was.
I literally would tell y'alland I can't remember.
It's going to come back to me,but I cannot remember right now
what I was going to say becauseI got distracted by Harley,
clearly still on me you canprobably hear him purring even
(26:43):
more now.
But in any case, I just didn'tthink my life could get better
and I felt like I have to betrayGod and leave God and go off
and be the prodigal son in orderto find any freedom whatsoever.
And so that's what I did, and Irealized later that that's not
really what I was doing.
(27:03):
I was just having like a bravemoment where I was willing to
fight for myself and I waswilling to believe that
something more was possible thatthe life I lived.
I felt very trapped, very, verytrapped in ministry.
I felt very trapped with myex-husband.
I just felt like a caged animalthat had to get out and I had a
(27:25):
weird sense of hope.
Now, where I'm at now is so muchdifferent.
Now I feel a sense of control,like I actually feel like there
are ways that I can manifestdifferent realities into my life
.
There's ways that I can havehope in the here and now.
There's ways now that I believethat God does desire for us all
(27:46):
to have hope, healing, peace,freedom, like right now, not
just in the afterlife, not justas a future thinking thing.
Now I believe that I can have ahealthy partnership and because
I'm not in one, that's becauseI haven't found one, and that's
cool With me.
I would rather be single Than bein the kind of marriages that I
(28:08):
was in before, because I wasmarried twice.
I would so much rather besingle and at peace than be in
the situations that I was inbefore.
Now, you know, as I look atMoney and all these other things
, it's not like I'm doing somuch better than I was before,
but I do have a sense of I canpursue what makes me feel good
and what makes me feel happy,and I can pursue and go after my
(28:32):
dreams.
And before it was kind of likeyou have to pray for 5000 years
and that might not be God's willfor your life and then you have
to sacrifice it, because ifit's not God's will, then you
know, because you want it.
It's probably not the thingyou're going to get and you just
have to learn to be happy withthe secondary thing that you can
.
I don't know y'all, when I justI look back and I just feel like
what the hell was going on?
(28:53):
What the hell was going on Likewhat was going on.
It was just such a clusterfuckand if you had asked me then I'd
have felt like everything wastotally fine.
But it really wasn't.
And I can see that now that I'mout of it and have some
distance, because it's been atleast 10 years since I've been
like really wrapped up in anevangelical Christian
(29:15):
environment and I'm looking atkind of this modern day
spirituality or new agespirituality or whatever you
want to call it, following thelaws of attraction, have
actually brought me so much morepeace and hope and joy and
happiness than I had before.
And maybe that makes meapostate, but I don't think it
(29:36):
is.
I don't think it does.
Apostate is leaving your faithfully, and actually I've
embraced my faith.
I've embraced the fact thatJesus wants me and calls me to
love and advocate for themarginalized.
Love and advocate for and giveto the poor.
Love and take care of my family.
Love and take care of myself.
It literally all starts withlove and that's what I'm trying
(29:58):
to do.
It's just really discouragingto see people what feels like on
my end, what feels likeprogression at least personally,
I won't speak for anyone elsebut divesting from evangelical
Christianity has felt likeprogression and hope.
But for the people going frominfluencer to evangelical I fear
that they are going torepression and lack of hope and
(30:22):
I really hope for a lot of themthat it doesn't backfire.
I do want to talk for a minuteabout the relationship between
the two, because I do think itis a very interesting
relationship, just therelationship between, like the
manifestation movement andChristianity, because they are
two seemingly disparate worldsthat have a lot of overlapping
principles and you probablymaybe have confused, been even
(30:44):
hearing me talk about thedifferences between then and now
and then and now and then andnow.
So I want to look at that justa little bit Basically.
The law of attraction in itssimplest form it's basically
that you believe that you canattract things to your life,
into your field, into yourvortex, through your thoughts.
The important thing to knowabout that in a real, simple
form is that manifestation teachyou that you can bring things
(31:05):
into your reality through yourthoughts and beliefs okay, into
your physical reality.
Christianity, on the other hand,is focused on Jesus being God's
son and the teachings of Jesusand really emphasize, like God's
sovereignty, grace, faith,prayer and the importance of
divine intervention in general.
So there is the overlap becauseboth believe in the power of
(31:26):
belief and in faith you got tohave.
If you want a new house andyou're following evangelical
Christian teachings, you got tohave faith that when you ask God
for it you're going to get it,that he's going to give it to
you.
But there's a little bit moreof like well, maybe he will,
maybe he won't.
Have you been a good boy?
A little bit.
Whereas in the manifestation,law of attraction, teaching, the
(31:48):
idea is you have faith, thatyou are going to believe that
into your reality, you visualizeit, you see it and you believe
that, if you fully believe thatthat house is what you want,
that you can have it.
And there is a sense that youfeel a little bit more in
control, just in general,because both Christianity and
(32:10):
the law of attraction bothhighlight and celebrate and
encourage positive thinking,encourage walks of faith, acts
of faith and both in some waysreally do believe that
intentionality is reallyimportant for outcomes.
You know, for example, proverbs23, 7 says as a man thinketh in
his heart, so is he.
(32:32):
So that verse can beinterpreted in both ways, in
both belief systems, I think.
But, like I said, this is wherea great divide happens, because
a fundamental difference isthat in the law of attraction,
the individual is at the center,and that suggestion is that you
are the primary driver of yourreality.
Versus in Christianity, you aresurrendering, you're just
(32:52):
surrendering to this higherpower and you almost have no
control whatsoever.
And I think when you take awaysomeone's ability to think about
themselves as like aself-actualized individual who
can live and walk through thisworld with a sense of
self-empowerment and a controlover their own reality, I feel
like you're stripping like animportant part of our personhood
(33:15):
.
And I think that's what madegrowing up in Christianity to me
feel so oppressive in some wayis that I never quite felt like
I could get out, have access toother kids who had, who had the
nice houses and the nice carsand just a better situation in
(33:45):
general, and it was just like,well, what am I doing different
that they're not doing?
Like, why do my prayers lead tous, you know, not having heat
and not having nice things andsometimes not even having food.
Like I grew up very foodinsecure, but like my friends
who lived in like Livonia andWest Bloomfield and Westland,
(34:06):
like they were, god wasanswering their prayers.
They were able to always eatand have heat and hot water, to
take a bath every night and a TVthat worked.
I'm like, literally that was myreality, seeing that and
thinking about that as a kid,like in fourth, fifth, sixth,
seventh, eighth grade, because Iwas around so many white kids
who are just living kind of likenormal middle class lives, and
I was living in fucking chaos,unbelievable chaos, and just
(34:29):
wondering, like I don't havereally any control, like I've
asked God for help, I've askedGod to do something different
and I just think about, you know, in my last, a couple of my
last episodes, I was talkingabout how, when I was in high
school, when I was in highschool, I was having sex with
someone who I didn't want to behaving sex with and I felt so
out of control and I just wonder, like if I had been privy to
(34:50):
like law of attraction,manifestation techniques, I
actually think I could have gotout of that situation so much
sooner because I had no sense ofself and evangelicalism, just
no sense of nothing.
It's really sad.
I do think there is somethingso tragic and sad about a
(35:12):
religion that would teach you tosurrender your empowerment,
your own self-empowerment.
That does not seem likesomething a loving God would
even want for you, would evenwant for you.
Like you don't feel like youhave power to get out of this
other than asking me.
That's your only source of hope.
Just ask me.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
(35:32):
And I feel like now, like whereI'm at is like no, there is a
sense of like, of God empoweringme, like, if you want to be a
better person in a certain area,go be that better person.
If you want to make more money,like, go after that.
If you want to, you know,change the world through writing
(35:54):
books, then go write books,because that's what I've gifted
you with.
You know what I mean.
You see the little differencethere.
Control is another key form ofdeparture, because the law of
attraction definitely promoteslike a sense of control over
your own destiny, like I justsaid, while Christianity is
encouraging you to surrender inGod's plan fully, like I just
(36:15):
said, but this is also with thecaveat that God's plan for you
might not be fully understood,but just go ahead and do it
anyway.
And this comes up a lot inmarriages, because people love
to throw around that verse inMalachi.
That's like God hates divorce.
And people will say over andover again that you should stay
married no matter what.
(36:35):
And you might not understand it, but you got to stay married
and that was something thatreally harmed me because I
stayed like five or six, maybeeven yeah, I'll just say five or
six years too long in amarriage that I was miserable in
and then ended up blowing up atthe end, and I just I don't
think that's how it should havewent.
I really don't.
(36:56):
And that's what everyone inevangelical Christianity was
counseling me to do, and theywere still trying to stop me.
There were people who I workedwith, and my ex-husband and some
of his friends who were tryingto stop me.
While I was leaving him, likeliterally, while I was leaving,
while I was trying to get out,they were still trying to stop
me.
Like maybe you could still putthis on hold, like I just want
(37:21):
to be like y'all, please, please, leave me the fuck alone,
please.
Another big difference is prayer, you know, in Christianity,
like I said, is used as a way toseek guidance and to intercede
and, you know, have requests fordifferent things, whether it's
a new Lamborghini, or, you know,world peace and everything in
(37:43):
between, or you know your mom toget better, your cough to go
away Whereas in manifestation,affirmations and visualizations
are used to align with veryspecific desired outcomes.
You're feeling dependent onyourself and what you can
produce in the energetic field.
(38:03):
On the manifestation side andon the prayer side, it's just
again just comes down to whetherGod wants you to have it or not
.
That feels very weird to me now, and I do see how people are
trying to like integrate thesetwo belief systems, and I get it
, I really do get it.
And there are some Christianswho talk a lot about like how
you can use law of attraction asa way to like align your
(38:26):
thoughts with God's will, whichI get it, and that's also
totally fine.
I do think there is aninteresting dynamic if you're
trying to live in surrender ofone thing while also trying to
live in the idea of personalcontrol and personal choice.
Now that I know a little bitmore about both.
(38:46):
It's definitely harder tobridge that gap, and so where
I've landed is that I think it'sa very deeply personal journey.
Obviously, I think there's noone size fits all answer.
I think that some of you mightfind a very harmonious balance,
and good for you.
Good for you if you have.
Some of us might feel a senseof dissonance and I definitely,
(39:10):
like I have explained to you inmy personal examples, feel that
sense of dissonance, like whereI land now is that I see all of
the very scientific, veryscientifically backed
explanations of why the law ofattraction works and why
manifestation works, and what Ibelieve is that God put that all
into motion, that there is anintelligent creator and that,
(39:30):
just like God created our earthto have something called the law
of gravity which keeps all ofour bodies stuck to this earth,
I believe that the law ofattraction is like one of the
laws that God created that wecan fully take advantage of and
still honor and respect God ascreator.
Obviously, I think that whenyou're looking at
(39:53):
self-empowerment, you shouldstill have humility.
I think that humbleness issomething that God gave us that
we should try to have.
I think that we can explore,you know, what is the difference
between like wishful thinkingand like faith-filled hope.
They're very different.
Either way, I think it'simportant to say that this is a
very complex topic with a lot ofnuance, so please don't come
(40:14):
from my throat.
I do think it's worth exploringour beliefs and our assumptions
, and exploring and relearningthings that we have learned
growing up, and especially waysthat we have a bigger, broader
understanding of Christianity.
Now, no matter where you landwhether it's one side, both
sides, any of the sides I justwant to encourage you to
(40:41):
continue learning.
I am one of those people that,like, really values curiosity
curiosity about life, aboutspirituality, about God, about
all of this stuff and I thinkthat it's possible for us to
continue to learn more, reflecton these beliefs and
respectfully share them witheach other in respectful
dialogue, as we should be ableto do as grown as adults and
from diverse sources.
(41:01):
So one of the sources that Ilove that I have really taken
advantage of.
So, number one, I do still havea Bible.
I read it occasionally.
I went from reading it everyday of my life for over a decade
to slowing down, and now I readit much less frequently.
In terms of learning about thelaw of attraction and
(41:22):
manifestation.
One of the main kind of gurusthat I've learned from is Dr Joe
Dispenza, primarily because heis the one who talks about the
most about how science backsthis way of life and this way of
thinking, and even he delves alittle bit into the spirituality
of it as well, too.
My curiosity has led me to tryto learn more about people who
(41:45):
practice the laws of attractionand manifestation techniques
through the lens of spirituality.
I saw on Lewis Howell's podcastsomeone who was talking about
how depression, anxiety, isreally healed through
spirituality.
That's kind of how our body isset up, and it's a more
scientifically based explanationthan I've ever heard, and it
(42:08):
just makes a lot of sense to me.
I've always thought that.
I've always thought that,because I know that people will
call different kinds of peoplein the evangelical world or
Christian nationalism world,will call different mental
illnesses demonic, I'm like, isit demonic though?
And that's a whole other.
The presence of the demonic isa whole other subject, so I'm
not going to go there, but Iwill say that I think that we
(42:32):
should have a curiosity aboutthis very big world, and if we
can decide that we are going tolove ourselves and that we are
not bad people or evil peoplefor exploring or like asking
questions, for wanting to knowmore, for wanting to understand
more.
I think that we'll be in such abetter place.
But anyway, what I was sayingthat I got distracted from was
(42:52):
that Dr Joe Dispenza he was oneof the first books I read.
The first exposure I ever hadto the Law of Attraction was
through the Secret, when it cameon Netflix, and that was kind
of how this movement really blewup in some ways again, because
it's been around for hundredsand like maybe even thousands of
years.
But I watched the Secret andthen that got me wanting to
learn a little bit more.
(43:13):
And then I met a friend.
We're no longer friends, butI'm thankful that she introduced
me to it even more.
And then the what reallychanged things for me was when I
read a book and I'll post ithere called you Are the Placebo
from Dr Joe Dispenza, and thatbook blew my motherfucking mind
Like, if you want to be blownaway by his story, the other
(43:35):
stories he tells in that book,get that book.
And I used it right away becauseat that time I had very low
left arm mobility and it hadbeen over a year that I was
having trouble moving my leftarm, to the point that I
couldn't do this.
I couldn't do this.
I could barely put my handbehind my neck I mean behind my
back to remove a bra.
(43:57):
And that book changed my life.
I used it to heal my arm.
It's completely healed, it'stotally fine.
And that's when I startedmanifesting money.
And I have manifested so muchmoney in the past few years, and
not to the point that I'mwealthy.
I mean, I'm still out heretrying to survive, but I'm just
(44:17):
saying I wouldn't be survivingif it hadn't been for that.
Oh, my battery's dying.
So let me wrap this up becauseI've been long winded.
Anyway, please follow me onSubstack.
I have a new Substack calledOut here Thriving, and it's
going to be.
It's going to cover six areas,including some of the things I
mentioned here resources.
It's just going to be lots offun.
So please sign up for that.
I have a book called GraceActually Memoirs of Love, faith,
(44:39):
loss and Black Womanhood.
This is a very memoirish bookof some of my best blog posts
from the past and I appreciateyou being here.
You could be anywhere but herewith me, so thank you.
This episode was so disjointed,I had so many interruptions, so
I hope it turned out okay.
But thank you for being here.
I will see y'all in the nextepisode.
(44:59):
Bye.
So I saw this YouTube video the other day that popped
up on my feed and it said theinfluencer to evangelical
pipeline is real and it had apicture of Kelly Stamps.
So not sure if you guys followher.
She has like the stampede.
She was a very fast growingYouTuber many years ago and as
of the last I guess, coupleyears maybe I haven't followed
her as closely.
She started like really talkingabout becoming an evangelical
(00:23):
Christian.
So I clicked on the video andI'll see if I can find the link.
I'll link it if you'reinterested and it showed like
basically a bunch of examples ofa lot of influencers who who
become like increasinglyevangelical as their fan base
has grown and as their platformhas grown.
And I just thought it was kindof funny and interesting because
I feel like I've done theopposite.
I was very, very evangelical atone point in my life, like I
(00:47):
was actually a minister and Iwas getting a degree, a master's
of divinity, just to show youhow like ingrained in that world
I was.
And now I have since walkedaway from that in some ways.
It's what people call anex-evangelical, evangelical
proximate, a decolonizedChristian.
(01:10):
There's people who have walkedaway completely.
Some Christians would call meapostate, which is frankly,
ridiculous, but that's a termthat evangelicals use to
describe people who have kind ofwalked away from their faith,
which I have not walked awayfrom my faith, I've only walked
away from evangelicalism.
But anyway, I just thought itwas an interesting dynamic and
(01:31):
so I wanted to talk a little bitabout that and my journey with
that, because maybe that's thejourney you're on.
There's a ton of peopledecolonizing their faith and
just going in a completelydifferent direction, frankly.
And then I also wanted to talka little bit about the
differences and the similaritiesand the overlap between, kind
of some of the new age spiritualmovements and where I land on
(01:54):
that, because I have definitelybecome increasingly more open to
all types of spirituality asI've decolonized my face in the
last not my face, my face in thelast few years.
So, yeah, that's what today isgoing to be talking about.
So, if you're interested inthis or have thought about, like
(02:15):
, for example, learning moreabout the law of attraction, or
wondering if it's okay as aChristian, someone who believes,
who has been raised in thechurch and still has some level
of belief, if it's even okay.
I'm not the guru on any of this, of course, but I have had a
lifetime of experience with atleast evangelicalism and I think
(02:37):
I have something to offer.
That's what I'm trying to say.
But first let me introducemyself and the podcast to you.
My name is Grace Sandra.
I'm an author, an advocate andan activist, and a mom.
This podcast is a hope-orientedstorytelling space.
It is a warm hug of solidarityfrom me to you.
It is a celebration of ourresilience Come on somebody.
And our determination to notonly survive but thrive.
(02:59):
Welcome to episode 22.
Welcome to episode 22.
But first let me tell y'all astory.
I realized at some point thatevangelicalism, at least the way
that it is taught in a veryconservative manner.
Now I realized that right now,the evangelicals have lost their
(03:22):
ever-loving goddamn mind.
Okay, they have lost their mind.
Right now, the christiannationalists have lost it.
So try to, as you listen tothis episode, try to separate
people who are considerthemselves to be evangelical but
not part of, like, the cultmovement of christian
nationalists that have electedthe orange demon orangutan and
who have who who spew all sortsof hate.
(03:44):
Now, of course, there areevangelicals who do the same
thing too, but I'm talking about, like, a more moderate
evangelical, as I kind of posethis.
So, for example, when I wasdoing ministry for 16 years
combined I was probably part ofthat moderate evangelical crowd
where we preached, you know,pro-life, but it wasn't like we
(04:07):
were going to BOMB an abortionclinic, you know.
And I was very much about purityculture when I was in that
evangelical movement and reallyfirmly believed that no one
should have sex outside ofmarriage ever for any reason.
Now I'm so far from that it'sactually crazy.
But it was also about justice.
(04:29):
So we believed.
And when I say we, this is likepart of the campus ministry I
was a part of, I was alsomarried to another minister, so
we were teaching and trainingand doing that kind of work
together.
So that's kind of, when I saywe, I'm talking about both mine
and his marriage, and also thatthe ministry I was working with
and what I was teaching myself.
(04:49):
I had been raised Baptist,which is very strict, you know,
girls shouldn't show their knees, kind of thing.
That's the church I was raisedin and I also went to a private
Christian school where that kindof stuff was taught.
But when I got to campusministry it was much more
liberal than when I was going tolike in Baptist spaces like I
(05:10):
could actually wear pants andyou know, and at least the
campus ministry I was a part ofwas really about racial
reconciliation and kind of wasdoing like BLM kind of stuff
before BLM was BLM.
So that's the kind of likemoderate evangelical I'm talking
of just as a preface.
Okay, I just had to start overfor the third time, so I feel
(05:33):
like this episode needs to getout.
Whenever there's problems, I'mlike it's important, so anyway.
So what interested me aboutpeople going from influencer to
evangelical was that you know,these people have found Jesus,
they've, they say they're,they're finding hope and joy and
love and I'm, you know,honestly, really happy for them
and I hope that the faithjourney makes them very happy.
(05:55):
But for me, going fromevangelical to influencer which
I'm using that phrase kind ofironically but for me reversing
that I wanted to talk about thebenefits that I've experienced
from leaving moderateevangelical world to kind of
where I am now and then maybesome of that compare and
(06:15):
contrast.
But one of the things that Iremember feeling a lot when I
was in the moderate evangelicalspaces was just a lot of guilt
and shame.
There's just a ton of guilt andshame around, particularly sex
and sexuality, but almosteverything else too.
Because you know, one of thepremises of modern day
evangelicalism is that you are aworm.
(06:38):
You know there's songs like CSLewis used to say that, but
there are songs that talk aboutyou know, woe is me, like I'm a
sinner and I need to repent.
But that kind of thinking andI'm not going to go into any
sort of theological anythingabout a lot of this stuff, I'm
just going to do a basicoverview because that kind of
thinking can really lead you tofeel like you are a horrible
person most of the time and thatthe only time you are ever a
(07:02):
good person is when you areliterally like on your knees
asking for repentance.
Different people have differentviews about what that looked
like for me and how I was kindof raised up in this world to be
an evangelical.
Basically, once you confessedyour sins and believed in your
heart that Jesus forgave you,that you were, you're forgiven
by the blood of Jesus on thecross, that he died for your
(07:22):
sins, so you could alwaysexperience redemption.
By the blood of Jesus on thecross, that he died for your
sins, so you could alwaysexperience redemption.
You know I was taught and Iboth.
I was taught and I taughtthere's redemption possible at
all points, but there is stillthat underlying feeling that you
are a bad, a very bad person.
So for me, one of the ways thatI thought was very interesting
among many, many, many otherways that I feel like a more
(07:45):
happy, at peace, evolved personsince leaving evangelicalism, is
that, as I've mentioned beforehere on my podcast, I struggled
really bad, and evangelicalismfueled this.
I struggled very, very, verybadly with negative self-talk,
telling myself all the time thatI was a horrible sinner and
(08:05):
that I was blankety, blankety,blankety, blankety, blank piece
of shit, and the messaging wasconstant.
The messaging of that wasconstant no matter where I was,
whether it was with the campusministry I was with or whether I
was at church, and also when Iwas at home.
That was an issue that I had inmy marriage to my evangelical
minister husband was just alwaysfeeling like you are a pile of
(08:26):
shit.
And one of the ways that I feellike moving away from that and
into like manifestation, whatsome would call like more new
age teaching, is this idea thatwe are all good, that we're born
good, that we are born withlove, that we are love and we
are capable of love and that wegasp deserve love.
(08:49):
Now you know, christianitywould also say, yes, you deserve
it, but it's only through thelens of if you fully believe
everything.
It's only through the lens ofif you believe that you know
God's creation is perfect and itwas, to me, always at odds with
, but you're telling me I'm likea nasty sinner and I deserve
nothing.
So I just kind of want to listoff to you the things that have
(09:10):
changed in my life since movingto that.
One is is that I stoppedtalking negatively to myself.
Once I started to believe that Ideserve good things, and when I
was in moderate evangelicalismand when I was in moderate
evangelicalism, I did notbelieve that I deserved good
things it took quite a bit ofre-brainwashing.
I was going to say rebrandingyeah, that's not probably the
(09:33):
right word Rebrainwashing myselfinto just believing like, okay,
yeah, I am a good person.
Before it just didn't hit.
People would say, oh, you'remade in the image of God.
It just didn't hit because Ifelt like, frankly, sir, you're
gaslighting me because you'retelling me that I'm made in the
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image of God, but I'm also anevil worm because I want to have
sex before I am gasped in amarriage.
I didn't get around a whole lotwhen I was younger, but I knew
that it was a lot of hornymotherfuckers out here and a lot
of people want to have sex andI understood that that felt like
an unreasonable thing to do, tomake people feel like shit for
such a basic need and drive and,almost in a bodily intuition,
(10:19):
to create people.
Honestly, I could stop there interms of what's been the most
like healing for me.
But, girl, going from believingthat you don't deserve any good
thing and that any good thingyou ask for you have to beg for
mercy to get and it's alwaysoutside of your control, like
that's how I felt.
(10:40):
Like it's up to God whether ornot I get this really good thing
that I want and it's really ona whim.
Maybe maybe he'll give it to me, maybe he won't, but it's
really completely out of myhands.
All I can do is pray.
And then where I'm at now isthat I believe that we have some
manner, scientifically speaking, of control about what we bring
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into our field, what we bringinto our vortex, that it is
literally scientificallypossible for us to manifest the
life and attract the life thatwe want through how we process
our thoughts and the importanceof our thoughts and our brain,
and there are scientific reasonsbehind it.
It's not woo-woo like I thoughtit was at one point, but it's
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also not at just the whim of God, because I still believe in God
.
But it's also a another aspectthat really changed for me when
I was in my evangelical days wasthis idea of gratitude.
So I did keep a great.
I did write five things that Iwas thankful for every day.
Way back when I started thatpractice like in like 2009 or
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something like that so it's beena long time and I was doing
spiritual direction at thatpoint and I was meeting with the
spiritual director once a monthand she encouraged me to start
writing down five things I wasthankful for every day to thank
God for.
It was more kind of like a rotepractice.
The practice for me was aboutbuilding my relationship with
God and making sure that Godknows that I appreciated
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everything he had done for me.
It didn't, it was.
It was good, like I really do.
I feel like it helped a littlebit in some ways and I don't
think there's ever a wrong wayto do a gratitude practice.
But now, what I've learned fromnew age teachers, when I do
gratitude it's actually moreabout getting into the feeling
of really processing why I'm sothankful for the good things
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that I have.
I'm so thankful, for example,like that, I have my cat on my
lap.
I don't know if you can see hislittle head right there.
There you go.
Hey, harley, You're so cute.
You might even be able to hearhim purring.
It's like really appreciating,like the feeling of him on my
lap and him purring just feelsvery calming.
Or when I went out for a walkyesterday and the sun was
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shining and I was getting thedopamine from the sun and from
the walk and from being outsideand I was listening to a good
book, and I'm thankful and I'mtrying to express like the
gratitude for the feeling ofbeing outside in the air and the
sunshine.
And the difference is is thatbefore everything I was doing,
it always felt like it was for apurpose to serve God, to make
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God happy and to be sure thatwe're not triggering some sort
of anger or frustration with usabout what we're doing.
The focus is so behavioral.
When you get into likeevangelical worlds, it's such.
It's so behavioral, almost likeyou're constantly a horse that
needs to be bridled.
That's actually a verse inProverbs somewhere, like don't
be like the horse that has to be, like led by bit and bridle
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everywhere it goes, and it'skind of like you have to stay in
control at all times.
Now, I'm not saying that theways that moderate or crazy
evangelicals or anyone inbetween, that the way they're
teaching it is biblical.
But I think that a lot of whatpeople live through, have lived
through in evangelicalism, isnot biblical.
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It's just someone's randominterpretation.
That's a wrong interpretation,frankly, of the Bible and I
don't think it's necessarilyright.
But I'm just trying to explainthat's the way that I lived it
that it was so such a behavioralthing.
So even that writing ofgratitude initially for me was
more about like that will makeGod happy, and it was very
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difficult to get to where I amnow, where, when I'm writing out
the things I'm grateful for,it's really not about like
pleasing God, for it's reallynot about like pleasing God.
It's more about like trying tohelp myself really feel the
fullness of the blessings thatGod has given me, the fullness
of being able to walk and use mylegs and get outside and get
the sunshine and the fullness ofhaving like a living sentient
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being sitting on my lap rightnow or having like a hot cup of
coffee in front of me andthanking God like that's a
blessing that you gave me.
Thank you, and I'm telling Godthat I'm feeling it and it's
lifting my vibration and it'snot to get like a pat on the
back and there's just adifferent motivation I'm finding
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and it's much more peaceful onthis side than it was on that
side.
Another area that's been hugefor me actually is the sex and
sexuality piece, because beforeI really firmly believed and I
do not peace-filled on this sidethan it was on that side
Another area that's been hugefor me actually is the sex and
sexuality piece, because beforeI really firmly believed and I
do not think there is any otherI do not think anymore that
there is a actual biblicalmandate that states that you
cannot and should not have sexoutside of marriage.
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I also don't believe thatthere's any sort of biblical
mandate that being a drag queenis a sin or being trans is a sin
or being gay is a sin, and Ithink a lot of those scriptures
have been taken out of context,by people who wanted to use the
scripture to control people inthe same way that they tried to
use the Bible to, and that theydid use the Bible to prove to
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black people that we should beslaves.
Ok, so we know that people willpick and choose, pick and
cherry, pick what passages ofscripture they want to say, what
they want to say, and nowthere's just a lot more voices
and a lot more helpfulinterpretations of scripture,
and I do not believe anywherebiblically that that is a
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mandate for here, now and forall time.
Actually, a lot of the thingsthat are mandates are people,
are things that people,especially Christian
nationalists, don't want to talkabout.
The fact that the Bible saysthat we should love the poor
like 2000 times, that we shouldwelcome the immigrant like a
million times I mean not amillion, but you know what I'm
saying that we should care aboutthe oppressed, that we should
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care about marginalizedcommunities and that we should
give a lot of our money away.
Those are four big things inscripture that are brought up
over and over and over and overand over again, ad nauseum.
But what does everyone want tofocus on?
Who's somebody having sex with?
How will they identify?
What are their pronouns?
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It's just so ridiculous.
It's such a ridiculous abuse ofpower, anyway.
So one of the things that Irealized as I divested from
evangelicalism is that I amgoing to live openly and freely
with my sexuality and not holdany sort of guilt and shame
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about this very natural thing byour desires as well, and I
firmly believe that we should,as adults, consenting adults,
practice safe and consensual sexwhen we want to, but who, what
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gender, what parts that showbusiness, and marriage should
not have anything to do with it.
That's where I'm at now andbefore, whereas anything and
everything that had anything todo with sexuality while I was
living as a evangelical waslayered with guilt and shame, so
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many layers and even while Iwas married, it just became such
a huge thing.
So, for example, if I had adesire to sleep with someone
else while I was married, now gowith me, go with me, go with me
, just keep riding with me.
On this point, that was seen asso evil and I felt so evil.
As opposed to where I'm at now,I think desire is very natural
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and normal, and it would be verydifficult for anyone anyone on
this planet, no matter thegender or non-binary, to not
have any desire because you'rewith a partner.
So, whereas now whereas beforethat was seen as evil now what I
see it as is, oh, this is anatural part of who I am.
I don't need to reject it.
I can listen to it, I can talkit through, like we can always
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make decisions that aredifferent than our desires.
Right, we can always makedecisions that are different
than our desires, right?
We can always make decisionsthat are different than our
feelings.
We don't have to let ourfeelings or our desires have
power over us, right?
So I'm not in a committedrelationship.
But if I were in a committedrelationship and I had a desire
and, depending on how it waswith my partner, I would love if
I was in a long term exclusivepartnership, if we could just
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talk to each other about it,like hey, yeah, I have, I was
looking at so-and-so and he waslooking good, I'm not going to
do anything about that.
But I also don't have to feellike this heavy amount of shame
that is like literallyunbearable to carry, because you
feel like you've alreadybetrayed someone just by having
you know that desire and thosedesires are part of our humanity
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and part of our sexuality, justin general.
So, yeah, becoming a evolved, asexually evolved woman who is,
you know, taking ownership of mysexuality, who is following my
desire, allowing myself to dokind of what I want to do again,
as long as it's safe,consensual consenting adults,
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I'm kind of allowing myself toreally just like relish in the
freedom of that, in that, like,I am perfectly normal, healthy
woman who is experiencing all ofthe beauty and fullness of what
it means to go throughwomanhood and go through, you
know, puberty, have a period,have my babies what's happened
(20:05):
since?
Be in perimenopause, havesexual peaks and you know all of
the different things thathormones are doing to my body.
That's a whole other subject.
Child, but girl, you know whatI'm saying Like there's a very
full, there's a big fullness toa woman's sexual experience and
I feel like it's so sad to methis is why the influencer to
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evangelical pipeline is sad tome Like, yeah, even the thing
with Kelly Stamps, it's justkind of sad to me.
It's always really sad to me tosee a woman who's owned her
sexuality I'm not talking aboutKelly right now, I'm just
talking about in general to allof a sudden be like, yeah, I
decided to follow this faith andnow I have to cover up every
part of my body, that, the bodythat God gave me.
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Now I have to see sex as a badthing.
Now I have to stop having sex,stop these desires and
completely go hermit mode andprobably going to end up feeling
shit when they don't do it.
Because there's anotherinfluencer type who just
recently declared that she foundJesus.
She was on Netflix Too Hot toHandle.
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Her name was Christine,something I actually like.
Her, followed her like, lovedher journey on Too Hot to Handle
and then she went on thePerfect Match and I follow her
online because she gives goodlike mixed girl, curly hair Not
necessarily mixed girl, but likecurly hair tutorials.
And then she starts talkingabout Jesus and I was like
another one bites the dust, likenow she's about to repress her
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sexuality, essentially becausethat's what the evangelical to
influence her pipeline.
It seems like what it's doing towomen is just like yep, now go
ahead and repress your sexuality, and I kind of hate to see it.
I really hate to see it Likeyou don't have to do that, you
don't have to be celibate inorder to follow Jesus.
You just really don't.
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So I kind of hate to see it andso yeah, and so now I'm at this
place where I feel like thereis no need to even repress.
Why would I repress somethingthat God gave me?
That's good.
I actually just saw the otherday I must have put it on
Facebook or something.
I hope I can find it, becauseit was like months ago that I
put it on Facebook, but it was awhole article that someone
wrote about the clitoris and howthe clitoris literally has no
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other point but to be pleasured.
It is there for nothing else.
There's nothing else.
It's good for it does not havea purpose other than woman's
pleasure, and it was justtalking about how, of all the
changes a woman's body makesonce we become women women you
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know what I'm saying theclitoris does not change.
It is unchanging honey.
It is like God.
The clitoris does not change.
It is unchanging honey.
It is like God.
The clitoris is unchanging.
And other things change downthere as we age and we go
through perimenopause.
But, baby, that clitoris isgoing to be there when you're 99
.
And it's still going to work.
I mean if your partner knowswhat they're doing, or if you
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know what you're doing or yougot the right toys, the clitoris
will still work.
And so you cannot tell me.
There is nobody that can tellme that we're supposed to
repress that clitoris.
Maybe we're not repressing theclitoris?
No, no, no, no, no.
Another big area where I'm justfeeling like I'm in so much of a
better place is hope.
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I just can't tell you how much,you know, I felt hope, of
course, when I was evangelical,but a lot of Christianity is
about you experiencing somethingreally good in the afterlife,
like, yeah, in the afterlifeyou'll be really happy, you'll
be completely at peace, you'llbe with people you love, you'll
get to be with Jesus and withGod and the Holy Spirit, and you
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will experience joy andliberation.
You know, and the more that Ihave learned about what the
Bible is actually saying andlearned from other faith
teachers who have decolonizedtheir faith.
I'm a Christian, I still dofollow Jesus, but what I can see
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now is that that's just a wayof controlling us.
Like, liberation is reallyabout Christianity, really is,
and should be, about liberationright here, right now, and I
think for me that just I don'tknow.
There was definitely hope.
You know, I always had hopeabout the afterlife, but I had
really lost hope that I wouldever be really happy truly on
earth.
In some ways I understood that.
(24:23):
I felt a level of peace becauseI felt loved by God, but I felt
very hopeless.
I think also, you know, thishas to do with the stage of life
.
You know, I had a mom who hadschizophrenia and it was really
stressful and I was in a verystressful marriage and you know,
there came a point where I feltlike I don't know if I'm ever
going to be happy in thismarriage or if I'm just going to
feel miserable all the time.
It wasn't all miserable, butyou know, when it, when it
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starts getting bad, it startsgetting bad.
And we were also strugglingfinancially, really bad, because
we were both in campus ministryand we weren't making a lot and
it just it was just, yeah,there was a lot of life that
just felt like a shit show thatI didn't know how to change.
And so I started trying to doextra things, like that's really
why I got like so into mommyblogging, because I really
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wanted to make extra money, andI got like so into photography
for a while because I wanted tomake extra money and I just
didn't have any hope or belief.
It was kind of like again atGod's whims, whether or not I
was able to get out of thesituation I was in and, as a
result for me, I left themarriage I was in and left
ministry.
Did that with terror, withshaking, because to me that was
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like, based on things peoplewere saying to me as well.
It was kind of like you'redoing the wrong thing by
pursuing your freedom, you'reclearly doing the wrong thing by
divorcing someone who doesn'twant to divorce you back.
You're clearly doing the wrongthing by walking away from
ministry.
And so it was kind of like itwas just I don't know, that was
in some ways, when I look backon that time because that was
2013 when I left ministry, and2014 when I left my ex-husband,
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and I felt like I had to gobehind God's back.
I felt like just to pursuefreedom and try to have the life
that I wanted, and I just knewlike this life I'm living is not
one that I can sustain ormaintain.
There was something that I feltthat I've never told anyone ever
and never wrote down.
The way my cat is in the frameright now is actually hilarious
(26:21):
to me.
He's just big, chilling, butanyway, one of the things that I
thought was hold on.
Now it has slipped my mind.
Oh my God, I can't evenremember now.
I forgot what it was.
I literally would tell y'alland I can't remember.
It's going to come back to me,but I cannot remember right now
what I was going to say becauseI got distracted by Harley,
clearly still on me you canprobably hear him purring even
(26:43):
more now.
But in any case, I just didn'tthink my life could get better
and I felt like I have to betrayGod and leave God and go off
and be the prodigal son in orderto find any freedom whatsoever.
And so that's what I did, and Irealized later that that's not
really what I was doing.
(27:03):
I was just having like a bravemoment where I was willing to
fight for myself and I waswilling to believe that
something more was possible thatthe life I lived.
I felt very trapped, very, verytrapped in ministry.
I felt very trapped with myex-husband.
I just felt like a caged animalthat had to get out and I had a
(27:25):
weird sense of hope.
Now, where I'm at now is so muchdifferent.
Now I feel a sense of control,like I actually feel like there
are ways that I can manifestdifferent realities into my life
.
There's ways that I can havehope in the here and now.
There's ways now that I believethat God does desire for us all
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to have hope, healing, peace,freedom, like right now, not
just in the afterlife, not justas a future thinking thing.
Now I believe that I can have ahealthy partnership and because
I'm not in one, that's becauseI haven't found one, and that's
cool With me.
I would rather be single Than bein the kind of marriages that I
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was in before, because I wasmarried twice.
I would so much rather besingle and at peace than be in
the situations that I was inbefore.
Now, you know, as I look atMoney and all these other things
, it's not like I'm doing somuch better than I was before,
but I do have a sense of I canpursue what makes me feel good
and what makes me feel happy,and I can pursue and go after my
(28:32):
dreams.
And before it was kind of likeyou have to pray for 5000 years
and that might not be God's willfor your life and then you have
to sacrifice it, because ifit's not God's will, then you
know, because you want it.
It's probably not the thingyou're going to get and you just
have to learn to be happy withthe secondary thing that you can
.
I don't know y'all, when I justI look back and I just feel like
what the hell was going on?
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What the hell was going on Likewhat was going on.
It was just such a clusterfuckand if you had asked me then I'd
have felt like everything wastotally fine.
But it really wasn't.
And I can see that now that I'mout of it and have some
distance, because it's been atleast 10 years since I've been
like really wrapped up in anevangelical Christian
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environment and I'm looking atkind of this modern day
spirituality or new agespirituality or whatever you
want to call it, following thelaws of attraction, have
actually brought me so much morepeace and hope and joy and
happiness than I had before.
And maybe that makes meapostate, but I don't think it
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is.
I don't think it does.
Apostate is leaving your faithfully, and actually I've
embraced my faith.
I've embraced the fact thatJesus wants me and calls me to
love and advocate for themarginalized.
Love and advocate for and giveto the poor.
Love and take care of my family.
Love and take care of myself.
It literally all starts withlove and that's what I'm trying
(29:58):
to do.
It's just really discouragingto see people what feels like on
my end, what feels likeprogression at least personally,
I won't speak for anyone elsebut divesting from evangelical
Christianity has felt likeprogression and hope.
But for the people going frominfluencer to evangelical I fear
that they are going torepression and lack of hope and
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I really hope for a lot of themthat it doesn't backfire.
I do want to talk for a minuteabout the relationship between
the two, because I do think itis a very interesting
relationship, just therelationship between, like the
manifestation movement andChristianity, because they are
two seemingly disparate worldsthat have a lot of overlapping
principles and you probablymaybe have confused, been even
(30:44):
hearing me talk about thedifferences between then and now
and then and now and then andnow.
So I want to look at that justa little bit Basically.
The law of attraction in itssimplest form it's basically
that you believe that you canattract things to your life,
into your field, into yourvortex, through your thoughts.
The important thing to knowabout that in a real, simple
form is that manifestation teachyou that you can bring things
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into your reality through yourthoughts and beliefs okay, into
your physical reality.
Christianity, on the other hand,is focused on Jesus being God's
son and the teachings of Jesusand really emphasize, like God's
sovereignty, grace, faith,prayer and the importance of
divine intervention in general.
So there is the overlap becauseboth believe in the power of
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belief and in faith you got tohave.
If you want a new house andyou're following evangelical
Christian teachings, you got tohave faith that when you ask God
for it you're going to get it,that he's going to give it to
you.
But there's a little bit moreof like well, maybe he will,
maybe he won't.
Have you been a good boy?
A little bit.
Whereas in the manifestation,law of attraction, teaching, the
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idea is you have faith, thatyou are going to believe that
into your reality, you visualizeit, you see it and you believe
that, if you fully believe thatthat house is what you want,
that you can have it.
And there is a sense that youfeel a little bit more in
control, just in general,because both Christianity and
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the law of attraction bothhighlight and celebrate and
encourage positive thinking,encourage walks of faith, acts
of faith and both in some waysreally do believe that
intentionality is reallyimportant for outcomes.
You know, for example, proverbs23, 7 says as a man thinketh in
his heart, so is he.
(32:32):
So that verse can beinterpreted in both ways, in
both belief systems, I think.
But, like I said, this is wherea great divide happens, because
a fundamental difference isthat in the law of attraction,
the individual is at the center,and that suggestion is that you
are the primary driver of yourreality.
Versus in Christianity, you aresurrendering, you're just
(32:52):
surrendering to this higherpower and you almost have no
control whatsoever.
And I think when you take awaysomeone's ability to think about
themselves as like aself-actualized individual who
can live and walk through thisworld with a sense of
self-empowerment and a controlover their own reality, I feel
like you're stripping like animportant part of our personhood
(33:15):
.
And I think that's what madegrowing up in Christianity to me
feel so oppressive in some wayis that I never quite felt like
I could get out, have access toother kids who had, who had the
nice houses and the nice carsand just a better situation in
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general, and it was just like,well, what am I doing different
that they're not doing?
Like, why do my prayers lead tous, you know, not having heat
and not having nice things andsometimes not even having food.
Like I grew up very foodinsecure, but like my friends
who lived in like Livonia andWest Bloomfield and Westland,
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like they were, god wasanswering their prayers.
They were able to always eatand have heat and hot water, to
take a bath every night and a TVthat worked.
I'm like, literally that was myreality, seeing that and
thinking about that as a kid,like in fourth, fifth, sixth,
seventh, eighth grade, because Iwas around so many white kids
who are just living kind of likenormal middle class lives, and
I was living in fucking chaos,unbelievable chaos, and just
(34:29):
wondering, like I don't havereally any control, like I've
asked God for help, I've askedGod to do something different
and I just think about, you know, in my last, a couple of my
last episodes, I was talkingabout how, when I was in high
school, when I was in highschool, I was having sex with
someone who I didn't want to behaving sex with and I felt so
out of control and I just wonder, like if I had been privy to
(34:50):
like law of attraction,manifestation techniques, I
actually think I could have gotout of that situation so much
sooner because I had no sense ofself and evangelicalism, just
no sense of nothing.
It's really sad.
I do think there is somethingso tragic and sad about a
(35:12):
religion that would teach you tosurrender your empowerment,
your own self-empowerment.
That does not seem likesomething a loving God would
even want for you, would evenwant for you.
Like you don't feel like youhave power to get out of this
other than asking me.
That's your only source of hope.
Just ask me.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
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And I feel like now, like whereI'm at is like no, there is a
sense of like, of God empoweringme, like, if you want to be a
better person in a certain area,go be that better person.
If you want to make more money,like, go after that.
If you want to, you know,change the world through writing
(35:54):
books, then go write books,because that's what I've gifted
you with.
You know what I mean.
You see the little differencethere.
Control is another key form ofdeparture, because the law of
attraction definitely promoteslike a sense of control over
your own destiny, like I justsaid, while Christianity is
encouraging you to surrender inGod's plan fully, like I just
(36:15):
said, but this is also with thecaveat that God's plan for you
might not be fully understood,but just go ahead and do it
anyway.
And this comes up a lot inmarriages, because people love
to throw around that verse inMalachi.
That's like God hates divorce.
And people will say over andover again that you should stay
married no matter what.
(36:35):
And you might not understand it, but you got to stay married
and that was something thatreally harmed me because I
stayed like five or six, maybeeven yeah, I'll just say five or
six years too long in amarriage that I was miserable in
and then ended up blowing up atthe end, and I just I don't
think that's how it should havewent.
I really don't.
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And that's what everyone inevangelical Christianity was
counseling me to do, and theywere still trying to stop me.
There were people who I workedwith, and my ex-husband and some
of his friends who were tryingto stop me.
While I was leaving him, likeliterally, while I was leaving,
while I was trying to get out,they were still trying to stop
me.
Like maybe you could still putthis on hold, like I just want
(37:21):
to be like y'all, please, please, leave me the fuck alone,
please.
Another big difference is prayer, you know, in Christianity,
like I said, is used as a way toseek guidance and to intercede
and, you know, have requests fordifferent things, whether it's
a new Lamborghini, or, you know,world peace and everything in
(37:43):
between, or you know your mom toget better, your cough to go
away Whereas in manifestation,affirmations and visualizations
are used to align with veryspecific desired outcomes.
You're feeling dependent onyourself and what you can
produce in the energetic field.
(38:03):
On the manifestation side andon the prayer side, it's just
again just comes down to whetherGod wants you to have it or not
.
That feels very weird to me now, and I do see how people are
trying to like integrate thesetwo belief systems, and I get it
, I really do get it.
And there are some Christianswho talk a lot about like how
you can use law of attraction asa way to like align your
(38:26):
thoughts with God's will, whichI get it, and that's also
totally fine.
I do think there is aninteresting dynamic if you're
trying to live in surrender ofone thing while also trying to
live in the idea of personalcontrol and personal choice.
Now that I know a little bitmore about both.
(38:46):
It's definitely harder tobridge that gap, and so where
I've landed is that I think it'sa very deeply personal journey.
Obviously, I think there's noone size fits all answer.
I think that some of you mightfind a very harmonious balance,
and good for you.
Good for you if you have.
Some of us might feel a senseof dissonance and I definitely,
(39:10):
like I have explained to you inmy personal examples, feel that
sense of dissonance, like whereI land now is that I see all of
the very scientific, veryscientifically backed
explanations of why the law ofattraction works and why
manifestation works, and what Ibelieve is that God put that all
into motion, that there is anintelligent creator and that,
(39:30):
just like God created our earthto have something called the law
of gravity which keeps all ofour bodies stuck to this earth,
I believe that the law ofattraction is like one of the
laws that God created that wecan fully take advantage of and
still honor and respect God ascreator.
Obviously, I think that whenyou're looking at
(39:53):
self-empowerment, you shouldstill have humility.
I think that humbleness issomething that God gave us that
we should try to have.
I think that we can explore,you know, what is the difference
between like wishful thinkingand like faith-filled hope.
They're very different.
Either way, I think it'simportant to say that this is a
very complex topic with a lot ofnuance, so please don't come
(40:14):
from my throat.
I do think it's worth exploringour beliefs and our assumptions
, and exploring and relearningthings that we have learned
growing up, and especially waysthat we have a bigger, broader
understanding of Christianity.
Now, no matter where you landwhether it's one side, both
sides, any of the sides I justwant to encourage you to
(40:41):
continue learning.
I am one of those people that,like, really values curiosity
curiosity about life, aboutspirituality, about God, about
all of this stuff and I thinkthat it's possible for us to
continue to learn more, reflecton these beliefs and
respectfully share them witheach other in respectful
dialogue, as we should be ableto do as grown as adults and
from diverse sources.
(41:01):
So one of the sources that Ilove that I have really taken
advantage of.
So, number one, I do still havea Bible.
I read it occasionally.
I went from reading it everyday of my life for over a decade
to slowing down, and now I readit much less frequently.
In terms of learning about thelaw of attraction and
(41:22):
manifestation.
One of the main kind of gurusthat I've learned from is Dr Joe
Dispenza, primarily because heis the one who talks about the
most about how science backsthis way of life and this way of
thinking, and even he delves alittle bit into the spirituality
of it as well, too.
My curiosity has led me to tryto learn more about people who
(41:45):
practice the laws of attractionand manifestation techniques
through the lens of spirituality.
I saw on Lewis Howell's podcastsomeone who was talking about
how depression, anxiety, isreally healed through
spirituality.
That's kind of how our body isset up, and it's a more
scientifically based explanationthan I've ever heard, and it
(42:08):
just makes a lot of sense to me.
I've always thought that.
I've always thought that,because I know that people will
call different kinds of peoplein the evangelical world or
Christian nationalism world,will call different mental
illnesses demonic, I'm like, isit demonic though?
And that's a whole other.
The presence of the demonic isa whole other subject, so I'm
not going to go there, but Iwill say that I think that we
(42:32):
should have a curiosity aboutthis very big world, and if we
can decide that we are going tolove ourselves and that we are
not bad people or evil peoplefor exploring or like asking
questions, for wanting to knowmore, for wanting to understand
more.
I think that we'll be in such abetter place.
But anyway, what I was sayingthat I got distracted from was
(42:52):
that Dr Joe Dispenza he was oneof the first books I read.
The first exposure I ever hadto the Law of Attraction was
through the Secret, when it cameon Netflix, and that was kind
of how this movement really blewup in some ways again, because
it's been around for hundredsand like maybe even thousands of
years.
But I watched the Secret andthen that got me wanting to
learn a little bit more.
(43:13):
And then I met a friend.
We're no longer friends, butI'm thankful that she introduced
me to it even more.
And then the what reallychanged things for me was when I
read a book and I'll post ithere called you Are the Placebo
from Dr Joe Dispenza, and thatbook blew my motherfucking mind
Like, if you want to be blownaway by his story, the other
(43:35):
stories he tells in that book,get that book.
And I used it right away becauseat that time I had very low
left arm mobility and it hadbeen over a year that I was
having trouble moving my leftarm, to the point that I
couldn't do this.
I couldn't do this.
I could barely put my handbehind my neck I mean behind my
back to remove a bra.
(43:57):
And that book changed my life.
I used it to heal my arm.
It's completely healed, it'stotally fine.
And that's when I startedmanifesting money.
And I have manifested so muchmoney in the past few years, and
not to the point that I'mwealthy.
I mean, I'm still out heretrying to survive, but I'm just
(44:17):
saying I wouldn't be survivingif it hadn't been for that.
Oh, my battery's dying.
So let me wrap this up becauseI've been long winded.
Anyway, please follow me onSubstack.
I have a new Substack calledOut here Thriving, and it's
going to be.
It's going to cover six areas,including some of the things I
mentioned here resources.
It's just going to be lots offun.
So please sign up for that.
I have a book called GraceActually Memoirs of Love, faith,
(44:39):
loss and Black Womanhood.
This is a very memoirish bookof some of my best blog posts
from the past and I appreciateyou being here.
You could be anywhere but herewith me, so thank you.
This episode was so disjointed,I had so many interruptions, so
I hope it turned out okay.
But thank you for being here.
I will see y'all in the nextepisode.
(44:59):
Bye.
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