Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:00):
It
(00:00):
was good devs.
Did y'all catch Tim Sweeney out there,low key dropping the big news of
what I joined epic games to work on.
I'll link the interview in the shownotes, but yes, the cat out of the bag.
We're making the unreal editor forfortnight, a standalone editor to bring
your vision to life in the Fortnite.
Metaverse stay tuned for morenews as the year goes on.
(00:23):
And less exciting news,which pains me to admit.
Your boy caught the fucking vid.
One night out in Capitol hill.
Um, speculated was a bartender who wasnot massed up or someone in that bar.
And after two years, twomonths, three fives, a shots.
The COVID got me.
(00:44):
It took me down for a few nights.
It really felt like a bad cold.
The worst part about it wasquarantining and not being able
to cuddle with the, with the pack.
I'm still testing positive a week later.
the good thing is keeping my distance.
Katherine and Mallory have not caught it.
And I know many of you are goingout doing conferences, doing
(01:04):
shows and I don't blame y'all.
I'm just encouraging you to be safe.
Don't let your guard down.
And test yourselves often.
Now.
Hit my music.
On episode 32 of the game,devs podcast out of play area.
I sit down with my old midwayAustin creative director, Kent
(01:25):
Hudson, who was also nominatedby Ben written on episode 31.
And we walked through his journeyin the industry from his start
at ion storm in Austin, Texas.
Working on Deus ex invisible war.
Onto his time at two came aroundon ball shock to and supporting
on EXCOMM the bureau declassified.
And even his time going indie to makethe critically acclaimed the novelist
(01:48):
all the way to where he is today at brassline entertainment as a design director.
This interview was recordedearlier in February the 22nd, 2022.
Coming to you by way ofToronto, Canada to the north.
Please welcome Kent Hudson.
Let's fall out.
Catherine (02:11):
Bienvenido Bienvenue Welcome
to the out of play area podcast, a
show by video game devs for game devs,where the guests open up one-on-one
about their journey, their experiences,their views, and their ideas.
No ads, no bullshit.
Join us as we venture far outof the play area with your host
seasoned game designer, John Diaz
John (02:34):
When I met you, all my other
buddies, all the other full sail homeys
got interviewed by you, I believeon campus and through whatever forks
in the road or alternate realitybranches, I didn't get to meet you
till I was already inside of midway.
And I knew you as creativedirector, Kent Hudson.
(02:54):
even to this day, I look at you andI'm like, yeah, that's a creative
director through and through, he cansell whatever, talk about whatever,
be super enthusiastic, super excited.
Just, just build a church and sellthe Bible rides and be like, Hey guys,
this is what we're doing all costs.
And are you with me?
And it's like, yeah, hell yeah, let's go.
I'm excited.
(03:15):
Let's go build this shit.
don't think you can train that.
You didn't learn it.
it's part of your core DNA you go to acreative director bootcamp or something.
Kent (03:24):
No.
And like, it's fine.
I was laughing when you were sayingthat, because like in hindsight
I was not a good crave director.
Like I did not know what I was doing.
I was ambitious you know, like Iwanted to, you know, be creative
and have more say and all thosethings, but I got promoted way too
early, like, when they didn't havea creative director for the project
and I was just like, what about me?
What about me?
What about me?
What about me?
(03:44):
I was just, you know, on Harveyabout like, what about me?
What about me?
And I kept knocking at the door, I guess.
you know, they didn't have anybody else.
So like on one hand is kind of, Youknow, process of elimination, I guess.
I didn't know what I was doing, man.
It's I look back at like early differentcompanies and there's lots of stuff
where like, you know, I was multiplecompanies and before I even knew what
some jobs looked like, and iron storm,we didn't have creative directors per
(04:06):
se, like on, on DX two Harvey was,I believe his title was director.
John (04:11):
Okay.
Kent (04:12):
in hindsight it wasn't like
the traditional creative directors.
I know at cause he was for a long time.
He was also the lead designer to Ricardogot promoted midway through the project.
And so he was like very involvedin the design piece of it.
but I believe he also had someproduction duties and some business
duties and some stuff that wasn'talways just creative direction.
So I never had a model for that role.
that's not to bag on Harveyor anything, Harvey's great.
He's got me in the instrument.
(04:33):
He hired me out of college.
Like
he's, you know, he's still my dude,
John (04:36):
credit him food Meagan and
then the street, you know, him
Kent (04:39):
yeah,
John (04:39):
on my ass.
So
Kent (04:41):
Absolutely.
Man, I, man, I was fricking nobody.
I didn't even have, I mean, youat least got to go to game school.
I came up before there was game school.
I have
a political science degree.
you asked if it was like, youknow, in my bones or whatever.
And I, I mean, I think it is because,I've always had a big mouth I guess.
cause like I remember in college, I didn'tknow what I wanted to do for a long time.
I went to school cause they say,I go to college, you know, like
(05:02):
trying to get the education opensup your opportunities or whatever.
And I just kind of backed into beinga political science major because
I was like, oh, these classes, Ican just like talk and get A's.
was like, you know, just cause it'sdebate, it's theories, it's this, that
and the other, you know, and it was justvery like interpersonal not that there's.
Theory and logic and stuff like that.
And in political science, but, I was justlike, man, I can just talk and do debates
(05:25):
and stuff like that and, and get grades.
And so I didn't want to be a politician.
I just saw that as a, a major I could do.
John (05:31):
being a director in
anything, I think that's a major
hat you tend to wear, right.
Is, getting disciplines on the samepage, listening, adapting, fighting
for an idea or bending into an idea.
So it's interesting.
Cause I talked to a bunch ofpeople doing this and not many
come from a poly side background.
And yet it is so Now thatI hear you talk about it.
Kent (05:54):
mean, part of it is that, because I
was always a gamer, I always loved games.
And like, I remember my freshman yearof college was right when you could have
a, computer that was powerful enough.
So I graduated high schoolin 79, I mean, on 97.
John (06:07):
79, I got there a vampire
Kent (06:09):
Yeah, exactly.
I got to take a break in about 15to get my blood infusion by the way.
John (06:12):
That's what you guys have in Canada,
man, with all that ice, you just have
your, you know, your blood bags just
preserved.
Kent (06:18):
exactly.
Just leave him on the back
John (06:19):
Don't got, gotta worry
about
sun.
Kent (06:21):
Yeah.
but I graduated in 97 from high schoolyou know, a couple years after that was
like, even my freshman year in college,I remember was when you could first kind
of like download a level editor for doom
John (06:32):
Uh,
Kent (06:33):
your own computer and
you can start making levels.
And so I started doing that andthen y'all got into it, like
quake two was out at the time.
So I built levels there and this soldierof fortune and, just like different games.
And so I w I was a hobbyist and I likeworked on a couple of mods that never went
anywhere with people just on the internet,like kind of early days of modding.
And so I was doing political sciencecause it's like, I can get A's doing this.
but I was kind of like a hobby game maker,or level maker, you know, level designer.
John (06:57):
do you approach level layout?
Kent (06:59):
I can shortcut that
question real quick, cause
I'm not a good level designer.
John (07:02):
Amen.
Me neither, man.
Kent (07:03):
It's hilarious.
Cause know, a few years after Igot in the industry, I would look
back at my levels that I built,even for my like, application of
my resume and stuff like that.
if you would go through my levels, theywere just like kind of like linear levels.
It would be like the first room wouldbe like a square with maybe like a desk.
And then the next room wouldbe, uh, hexagon and the
next room would have stairs.
And it was literally like each roomwas me learning a new tool and the
editor, but there was no thoughtto like going back and making it
(07:26):
consistent or adding pacing or
anything.
It was just like, oh, here'sthe room where you learned
about invisible triggers?
Here's where you can pick upammo, it was like, so amateurish,
like it was bad, there was noplayer experience or anything.
It was just like, theprocess of learning the tool.
So it was like never agreat level designer.
I guess I had a couple of good enoughlevels to get hired at ion storm,
John (07:43):
were they looking
at your portfolio then?
So it's like,
Kent (07:46):
yeah, yeah.
John (07:47):
what do you got?
And it's like, yo, here's all ofthe levels of, or built on for doom
or quake.
Kent (07:52):
to be fair to myself, I did
have one, it's funny people forgotten
about this game, but soldier,fortune, I think Raven made it, it
was on one of the, one of the quake.
engines
John (08:00):
Raven was like
a offshoot spinoff of,
right.
Kent (08:04):
Yeah.
They were like, almost like,a second party type deal.
It was weird.
They, they were independentstudio they're up in Wisconsin.
They're still there.
John (08:10):
Yeah.
Doing call of duty maps.
Kent (08:12):
I think that's where the QA
team was like trying to unionize.
Right.
John (08:15):
oh
yeah.
That's
interesting, dude.
You need unions a happeningThey come in, they come
in in game development.
Holy shit.
Kent (08:23):
people been talking about
since I got in the industry, man.
but I made, I made a good map insoldier fortune and it was legit good.
when I was in high school, I usedto love this movie called where
Eagles dare, which is like this worldwar II movie with Clint Eastwood.
And it had this thing with like, uh,action scenes on this, like, a ski lift,
but you know, like a cable car thatgoes like up to a castle on a cliff.
And so I was like, I can make a cablecar that goes up to a cast on the
clips you had to like, do all thisstuff at the bottom of the cliff.
(08:44):
Then you could unlock thecable car and ride it up.
And it was like a, a mover thatlike, really you could get in
the door would open and close.
You'd go up, you get up.
And there's the castle, you'dget the key, get out, you know?
So like actually made like onelevel of it's like, ah, this
guy might know what he's doing.
It's at least technically impressive.
It was probably not experientially.
Very good.
But that one was, decent
John (09:01):
That's a big thing that
I want people to keep in mind.
Right.
It's the spatial pacing is one thing, butshowing that you can together logic and
make triggers a thing and show sequencesthat lead from one section to a level,
to another section, a level, that's abig part of what we do when we break in.
Right.
So showing that you can dothat and hit the ground running
(09:22):
is already enticing enough.
So that's awesome.
Kent (09:24):
Yeah.
So, so I sent them that I'mlike, this was back in the day.
Like I still had the CDactually I found in my closet
John (09:30):
Oh,
Kent (09:31):
I'm I'm like a pack rat.
I might because it's full of PC gamesfrom like the late nineties, this
amazing.
I literally like took my resumeand my cover letter printed them
out on a printer at college.
you could buy these like, stickerlabel, things that were on like an
eight by 11 piece of paper that hadlike space for two Juul case covers.
John (09:48):
Yeah.
Kent (09:49):
made a jewel case cover
that had like the DSX logo and
like my name on it and put it on.
And I burned my levels to a CD
John (09:55):
Oh
Kent (09:56):
my printed resume and printed
cover letter and that CD and a little
like Juul case and put it in a bubblewrap, a bubble mailer and mailed it
to Austin, Texas from North Carolina.
Like, that's how I applied.
Like, it wasn't even,it was barely online.
Like I would email it, those dudes, butI did my interviews on a phone call,
and mailed them my stuff.
John (10:13):
that's a hell of a portfolio
or a business card, right?
Like w beats that, you know,like, oh, we are a business card.
Cause nobody had websites back then.
Right?
Maybe there was some, talkedto a few animators that had
their demo reels on VHS.
Right.
And so that was
Kent (10:26):
Oh, wow.
John (10:28):
But I love it.
Instead of sending out, I don'tknow, a piece of paper here's a CD.
Here's my design sensibilities.
You gotta be excited.
I would imagine me being whatever designerat a studio, checking the mail and getting
this and be like, oh shit, yo guys, let'spop this in your let's check this out.
Kent (10:49):
Oh man.
I got like two good stories about that.
One of them is, cause I actuallydid have a website at my college.
It's pretty early internet, right?
Like this is 97, 98.
John (10:57):
was the
college?
Kent (10:58):
uh, wake forest university
John (11:00):
Oh, snap.
Tim
Kent (11:02):
and Winston-Salem yeah,
Timmy D I missed him by one year.
I was a freshman theyear after you graduated.
John (11:07):
You're tall, man.
You got, you got the height
Kent (11:09):
Yeah.
That's true.
I did talk at the age of 36.
That was the latest I could done.
John (11:16):
You, my hero you might hear.
Okay.
I kept telling myself like I, thisis the year I'm going to dunk.
This is the end.
And now it's like,
Kent (11:22):
You've been I'm I'm only six, four.
So like, you know, that gives mea leg up, and I hadn't played ball
in like five years before that
John (11:27):
I guarantee you there's
like a list of no more than 40
game developers who could dunk.
Kent (11:31):
don't think I can now I'm older now.
And it was very much like Itried like 30 times and I got it.
It was like, it was like off one with one.
It was, it wasn't anything fancy.
It was like just over the rim, just overthe rim, you know, it got two knuckles
on the rim, so whatever and it's funny.
Cause the next day my leftcalf was like cramping.
It was so slow.
John (11:50):
Put everything you
had into that soccer.
Kent (11:53):
I did, My wife was just
sitting on the side of the
court being like, can we go now?
And I'm like, I almostgot it almost got it.
John (11:59):
Oh,
that's wonderful.
36.
Kent (12:01):
it wasn't like, a Dunkin
traffic in a game or whatever.
It was just me on the court.
but, we had websites in college.
every student got, you know, like20 megabytes of internet space
or whatever that you could use.
And so I was like obsessed.
I was like, Oh, my God, I madea website that had a whole bunch
of stuff about movies that Iliked and music that I, like.
I had a page called song of the daywhere every day I would rip like
a crappy MP3 of something I likedand put it up and talk about why it
(12:23):
was like an early blog basically.
John (12:24):
yeah,
Kent (12:25):
But it also had this thing
that was basically a blog is
called like thought of the day.
And every day I would just post someshit, like what, like just whatever I
was thinking about, whatever it was.
And this one time on April fools,I made this big post about how
women belong in the kitchen.
They shouldn't even beable to go to college.
they should know where they fitin society, this whole thing.
And it was like dead panthe whole way through.
(12:46):
And the very last line I said,and before you get mad at me,
just think about what today.
is because it was April 1st.
It was like a whole April 4th, likean internet, April fool's joke.
John (12:54):
Yeah.
Kent (12:55):
Except when they were researching
the ion storm, they found that post and
didn't realize it was April fool's joke.
John (13:00):
Well,
Kent (13:01):
so he was like, we
almost didn't interview you.
And I was like, why not?
And he's like, oh, we saw that post.
And we didn't realize it was a joke.
So we thought you were just assuper misogynistic, like toxic guy.
And I was like, holy crap.
That's where I learned that.
Like, even if something's a joke and you
say it's a joke, you stillgot to be careful because
John (13:17):
Oh man, dude, imagine today.
Imagine today, like the way cultureor media is quick to just take
snippets and little screenshots.
Kent (13:26):
Oh yeah.
I would be
dead.
John (13:28):
line.
Kent (13:29):
I would be dead.
I
John (13:30):
Wow.
Kent (13:31):
And the fact that
it was on April 1st.
it almost screwed me up anyway.
I was like, holy crap.
but the other thing is, is thatlike, this was in the days Of ICQ.
And so once I got the job, got thejob halfway through my senior year.
So I was like, I'm still goingto graduate before I come.
Like, know, I'm not gonna drop outthree months earlier, you know, put
in the time I'm gonna get my diploma.
and so I would like ICQ with them to Beck.
Yo.
Cause I knew there weregoing to be X, too.
(13:52):
I didn't know much
John (13:53):
Yeah,
Kent (13:53):
to me like design docs,
who was like, look, we can't
let that out of the network.
I was like, I get it.
I was like always buggingthem like, oh yeah, what's up?
We're doing the dah, dah.
John (14:00):
that's cool.
Of
Kent (14:02):
months.
I was like, I'm going to work at anstorm, but I was still in college.
John (14:05):
And you knew the game you
were going to work on
Kent (14:07):
Yeah.
And so I was just likeblowing them up all the time.
John (14:10):
ICQ.
Kent (14:11):
time I got there, like I found out
that they were like guy, the new guys on
ICQ.
again, who's you bugging the day?
Like I was like a joke around the office.
I was so eager, man.
I was so enthusiastic.
John (14:21):
that formula is
so vital games, right?
Like you have the grizzled veteranshave been doing the thing for
a while and are not as excited.
And it's important to keepthat fresh stream of youthful,
exuberance and excitement.
Right?
Like,
Kent (14:37):
A hundred percent.
John (14:38):
check this out.
Oh, look at this, Hey, I'mgoing to show you this and just
asking all these questions.
it's a great formula for success.
I feel like, like, whatevertime you feel, you got to spend,
catering to that or whatever.
I think it pays dividends in the long run.
Kent (14:54):
I totally agree.
I mean, that was, I mean, wedid that at midway, right?
Like you saw that like how
many, how many wholesalersdid we pull in, man?
John (15:01):
Fuck man.
You put it.
It was, I want to say it was like12 of us, at least man, 12 to 15 of
us
Kent (15:07):
was a bunch.
It was.
John (15:09):
and I'm eternally grateful, man.
What that, what a, what a class
Kent (15:13):
That's the thing, man,
you look and see what people
have gone and done since then.
Man, people are all over.
John (15:18):
I can go down the list, but
you already know where we have, we'll
Kent (15:21):
that's true.
They'll each have to comeon and tell their story.
If they haven't already,
John (15:25):
I got a handful a one day.
I want to get to a point where I could dothis live in a studio or some shit like
that and just have like a round table
Kent (15:34):
That'd be fun.
You better schedule itfor like, five hours.
Yeah.
John (15:38):
were at ion storm, you just got
in, you bugging everybody externally.
Now you're on site.
Uh, does anything change?
It was at a big move
Kent (15:48):
yeah,
I was in North Carolina maybe likefive days or a week after, uh,
graduation, I put my stuff in a Uhall and just like drove to Texas.
John (15:58):
Yeah,
Kent (15:59):
Yeah.
And I was, I mean, you know, I'dlike, I'd, gone to college in the
same state that my family lived in.
So like, you know, I've been two hoursfrom home, but not like super far.
And so then it was like,yeah, just throw my stuff in.
And I'm 22 years old and Iwas like going to Texas, that
was kind of it, it was cool.
Like that's where I wanted to work.
Like I like DSX changed my life whenit came out in the, summer between my
junior and senior year, I was like, whoa.
(16:20):
was like, I didn'tknow, games are a hobby.
And I was like, whoa,games could be a thing.
Like I was like, I didn'tbrowse games could be like this.
John (16:25):
that was birth, or like, I
guess, kind of a one generation
removed of what the action RPG, genre,
Kent (16:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was the heyday ofthe immersive SIM and I sound like an
old man saying that, but like.
Thief system shock two day ASX.
So those games, I mean, theywere, they were all time.
and so, yeah, so I got there andI was just, I was just so psyched
to be there and I didn't knowanything about being an adult.
And I was just a 22year old, figuring out,
John (16:49):
gamer, turn game developer.
Kent (16:51):
exactly.
I got me an apartment.
That I mean, it's probably like any22 year olds apartment, just like,
I would just take my clothes outof the dryer and just put them in
the clean coasts pile on the floor.
Like I wouldn't, I didn'thave any furniture.
Like I had a bed that was juston the box Springs or whatever.
And I like, you know, I didn'thave like a chest of drawers
or any drawers to put shit in.
(17:12):
So I was just like, I take theclean clothes and there's a
clean clothes pile on the floor.
They're clean.
They're not folded or anything.
It's just in a pile.
And then I would go, youknow, pick it, pick out what
shirt I want to wear that day.
And They were clean.
That's what I could say about them.
John (17:25):
what you're saying a lot
back in those days, To like
gamer hygiene,
Kent (17:29):
I definitely worked with
people who I won't, I won't name who
definitely you'd smell them beforeyou saw them when they came To work.
So
John (17:35):
to put, to put a time frame on it.
This was what?
Early two thousands.
Kent (17:40):
2001 is when I started there
June of 2001.
John (17:43):
All right.
Summertime.
Woo.
Kent (17:45):
Yeah.
Summertime in Texas
John (17:47):
All right.
So you
Kent (17:48):
toasty.
John (17:49):
and w you know, you hit
the ground running, they just
throw you right into the tool
Kent (17:53):
Yep.
John (17:54):
know what you're going to be doing?
What's your title?
What's your role?
Kent (17:57):
Yeah, I was a low designer, so I
got hired as a level designer back then,
like game designer wasn't even a thing.
It was like level designers woulddo game design and level design.
Some programmers would also do gamedesign stuff and it was just kinda
like, The teams were smaller, man.
Like, uh, we, we thoughtto make, to make the X too.
At one point we had gotten up tolike, I think 50 people, we were like,
holy crap, this is the biggest gamedevelopment team I've ever heard of.
(18:18):
You know, it was like fit.
It's like 50 people.
And, so yeah, so I was a level designerand was not good at the sort of geometry
architectural space flow side of it,like, and w and some of it was just me
being stupid and stubborn, and someone wasjust like, I just wasn't very good at it.
but what I was good at was, sort ofthe logic and scripting piece of it.
(18:42):
probably one of the best things everhappened to me was a programmer.
This guy named Alex Duran, who was areally smart programmer, on our team.
He rewrote the object system forunreal and created a whole new sort of
inheritance based, object oriented datastructure for the game where instead
of being like, you know, the old, like,it's this I'm probably I'm real one, man.
(19:05):
It's like, so therewas a real inheritance.
Everything had to be like a code class,if you want to make any new object.
And all of a sudden youcan start deriving things.
And we had a cool scripting system that Ibelieve was made by a guy named Matt bear.
and he created a really nice visualscripting system instead of just
having to use unreal script, which isbasically just like, I think Java, um,
or, or some sort of web style language.
And so between those two things andthose two things talk to each other
(19:28):
they realized they needed, like, ifwe're going to start keeping more and
more of our sort of gameplay, objects,weapons, characters, pickups, all
that stuff in data, they were like, weneed somebody to manage all this data.
And so they were looking forsomeone who would like take over
game data management and Yeah.
I volunteered because Ivolunteered for anything.
And I was, and, you know, I was justsaying, I want more, give me more.
(19:50):
I want to do more, you know, I was hungry,you know, like really, really hungry.
And so I just said, I'll do it.
You know?
And, and once I got into it, I startedexperimenting and being like, okay, I
could, it's not that hard to maintain thisstuff, but like, this is really powerful.
And so I started, like, Ijust started making stuff.
I realized that like, I couldderive a new class in data without
having to talk to a programmer.
And this all sounds so normalnow, because this is how, this
(20:13):
is just how engines work now.
But like back then, and justdidn't work this way, like a
designer considered his desk andbe like, I'm going to derive this.
And I got the script I can attach toit and the script can reference itself.
So the script can say, when such andsuch event happens to me, then do this.
And I've got this list of actions.
It was a very like ifthen type of scripting
system.
But I, once I realized that I waslike, holy crap, like open up these
(20:35):
doors instead of just doing them,the maintenance side of it, I would
just start making stuff for the game.
Like, people we'd be doinga level review or whatever.
And, people would be like, Aw,man, I wish we had, like, I wish
we had a door that work like this.
Or like, Oh, what if we had likea trap like that or whatever?
And I was like, I can make it.
I was going back to my desk and justmaking it like 20 minutes later.
But here's the, here's your thing.
Yes.
We're just sent to thischange list or whatever.
John (20:54):
Matt.
Kent (20:54):
that'd be like, you know, days
you'd have to wait for a program
John (20:57):
Yeah.
Kent (20:58):
And I, I started making stuff like
my, one of my favorite memories is that,
um, in DX two there's four or five, maybesix weapons that are hidden in the game.
And they're like really cool weapons.
Like one of them, like there'sone called like the red grease.
So hunter, which was like,uh, a gun that had like a red.
like spotlight on it, likeflashlights scope looking thing on
it that did like a ton of damage.
(21:18):
And you could only find itat one place in the game.
It was like in some little, sewer orsomething like that, like back around
the edge, you had to crawl through athing and there's this one gun there
and there's like five or six of theseunique weapons that like players found.
It wasn't even, I don't even thinkof the strategy guide was like
chemical, Easter egg for people,but they were really cool weapons.
And where that came from was one daywe were at lunch and we were in the
corner booth at Chewy's, which is,
(21:39):
I mean, you know, Chewy's, youknow, Chewy's, I was getting
ready to explain it to you.
And I was like, oh,you know, two of these.
And so it was like me SteveHarvey, Ricardo and Monte,
I just, the design crew.
And we were sitting in thecorner booth at Chewy's.
This is like four monthsbefore we shipped the game.
Like this was likegetting into crunch time.
and we just got to talking to like, youknow, what's cool in RPGs when there's
like unique weapons and like cool stuff,you can find it's like, dah, dah, dah.
(22:00):
I'm like, man, I wishwe had stuff like that.
But you know, we just havethe same weapons everywhere.
And we started riffingon ideas for weapons.
And we got back.
from lunch and I had checkedall those weapons into the game.
By the time I left that night becausewe had the system, I was just like, oh,
I can derive a pistol off of our basepistol change this color parameter tweak.
The damage changed the waythat the clip works and dah,
(22:21):
dah, dah, and just all in data.
So like, I just found a reallove for that kind of stuff.
And there were so many parts of thatgame that was just, just stuff that was
just like experimenting with, those newtools, that those programs that made us.
So by the end of the project, Iwasn't doing any like level design
stuff in terms of like geography and,architecture and stuff like that.
I was doing tons of scripting.
I ended up scripting half of the game.
cause I was very good at scripting andtriggers and events and stuff like that.
(22:43):
I learned to have like a verysort of logical brain in that way.
And so I did a ton of that and then Iwas just making stuff, man, like so much
stuff in that game was just crap that, you
know, I,
made it my desk.
Yeah.
John (22:54):
when you talk about those design
lunches, it hits me all up in the
heartstrings because so many greatgame ideas come from team, just going
out to lunch or the team and goingout to the bar or just hanging out.
And,
Kent (23:08):
Yeah,
John (23:09):
around people that are making
shit and you start riffing that's
how cool things emerge in the game.
And I kind of
Kent (23:16):
absolutely.
Yeah,
John (23:18):
pandemic situation
Kent (23:19):
yeah.
John (23:20):
has to be scheduled and busy
and the calendars are blocked and you
don't really have these kind of lowstakes, in a car on the way to a place
or you see something on the table.
And you're like, yo, why is that green?
And I'm like, yo, whatif our thing was green?
And you know, it just,
I miss that, man.
Kent (23:37):
we try to do that with huddles,
sometime those slack huddles.
Cause those are a littlebit like that, but
yeah, you're right.
You can't replace it Yeah,
John (23:43):
to and go
Kent (23:45):
yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean like, it's weird becauselike When I see a huddle, I often
don't jump in because I'm like,oh, I'm in the middle of something.
Or like, you know, I'm trying to do work.
That's kind of like thinky or like right.
You know, writing or, stuffthat takes concentration.
It's like, you know, I can't even listento music that has words when I'm like in
John (24:00):
Yeah.
I'm with you.
Kent (24:01):
instrumental.
Like I can't just distracted.
So as much as I want to hop in,I'm like, gosh, you know, people
talking, it's gonna, you know, it'sgonna break my train of thought.
So, that's one of the toughestthings about the pandemic,
not having those moments.
John (24:12):
what was it like
shipping your first game
Kent (24:15):
It was pretty dope.
my first game actually ended up beingthe PS two version of DSX because
halfway through DX two, we had a teamthat was working on it and things just
weren't going well on the PS two port,we're talking about putting DSX bloated
PC game on the PS two, which I can'tremember like how much memory it had.
John (24:33):
and unreal game
on the
Kent (24:34):
Yeah.
And unwritten unreal one on the PS two.
Whew.
John (24:38):
Yeah.
PSU probably had like some megs of memory.
If
that
Kent (24:42):
Was probably measured in megs.
You're right.
I think most of our level design team,and then a bunch of the programmers,
we got pulled off of DX two for a whileto go work on P on the PS two port.
So actually that
PS two port was the firstgame I ever shipped.
And that was cool because DSX probablystill is my favorite game ever.
I'm not saying it's the best game ever,but it's probably some of my favorite game
ever just is completely formative, man.
I was like lightning in a bottle for me.
(25:04):
and so it was cool because like Iwas the only person on the design
team who had worked on the PC game.
So I'm working with the dudeswho made my favorite game.
I did an interview one time with, oneof the dudes at rock paper shotgun.
And he described it as like, yougot your chance to play with the
Beatles as the way he put it.
And I was like, Yeah.
I was like, you know, like these weremy heroes and I'm sitting here making
new version of their game with them.
I was like, this is so cool.
So I was like pinching myselfmostly, but it was cool.
(25:25):
Cause we got to go back to a lot of the,parts of the game that they weren't happy
with and that we thought could be better.
And so we worked levels,we fixed scripting bugs.
we not just did the port, but we also,you know, there's some parts of those
levels that look quite different.
So, you know, I can still think backto stuff I did on that and it was
like, oh man, this is way cooler now.
John (25:44):
what leads to those
discrepancies between ports?
I'm always curious, like PCto console or console to PC.
Usually there's some type ofconstraints that you have to work
Kent (25:54):
yeah.
I mean back then the biggest constraintwas memory on the, on the PS two
because DSX struggled to run onPC, it took patch after patch, after
patch to kind of clean it up, butit was like very resource intensive.
And so the.
Trying to cram that in.
So, I mean, immediately wehad to chop the levels up.
So that, that was, that was thebiggest hit was chopping the levels
down, just cause of memory, you know,
John (26:11):
Are you just ripping out props
and textures and things like that?
Kent (26:15):
we didn't want to do that cause
we didn't want it to be sparsing and
empty stone said we would just take it.
Like if we have one big level,we switch it into, three pieces.
So it just, there's more places wherewe had to like take it and kind of
funnel you into a level transition thatthere'll be a hard load into the next one.
So there's a lot more loading on it,which is like, that's the only drawback
for it is like the levels being smallerand, having more sort of loading times
John (26:38):
you remember those console
games, especially counsel's
reading off this great.
It's just like,
Kent (26:43):
Yeah.
John (26:44):
screen.
And then, you know, andespecially any unreal game, right.
we got better at masking it with likeelevators and dialogue and shit like
that, but those blackscreen loading screens.
Kent (26:55):
Yeah.
And do you remember when, like wediscovered that like you could play a bank
file and do a load in the background, youcould try to cover stuff up, like, whoa,
and now it's just
industry standard, but yeah.
Yeah.
But
John (27:07):
was big UC bank on everything.
Any, any disc based game, you'll seebank on it in the loading screen.
I don't remember how this happened,but was it essentially like midway
bought ion storm or you guys
Kent (27:19):
no, no, no.
It's, it's no, it's much more sortedthan that or not sorted, but it's
just, it's just kind of sad industrystory, but basically, DX two came
out and broke even and did okay.
But it wasn't gangbusters.
It was an expensive studio.
You know, we, I think had someschedule delays and, back then,
especially the awesome was kind ofknown for like ambitious nerdy games.
(27:40):
Didn't have the best graphics,didn't have good controls, but
were like weird and nerdy and coolfor like, you know, game nerds.
So, you know, it wasn'tlike, so commercially viable.
I remember the IDaaS at the time youknow, they were kind of surprised
that ASX one had done so well.
but as soon as DX two, like didn't set theworld on fire, it broke even and made them
some money, but it wasn't like a huge hit.
And then same thing with T3.
I don't remember how the three did,but essentially, at that time they've
(28:03):
got, you know, the legacy of kinggames and of course got tomb Raider.
They've got Hitman who started doing well.
you know, they had all these franchisesthat were way more marketable.
And so we were just like,
John (28:12):
I think they merged
with square eventually to
Kent (28:15):
initially.
Yeah.
But, but at the time it was just IDaaS,which backwards is so di just so you know,
as in
so comma die, like so die,
John (28:23):
Oh
Kent (28:24):
weird trivia.
and so, it
kinda got to be this thing wherewe were an expensive studio.
We had, made a big mistake inrewriting, a lot of the unreal
engine where we didn't have to.
So there'd been a lot of techdebt and tech costs that kind of
hurt the end product of the games.
I mean, DX two started off with terrainmaps, water elevators, all kinds of cool
John (28:43):
all the cool tech, as he's saying
this shit, I'm just like, yo didn't we do
the same shit at midway didn't history.
Repeat itself.
I midway.
Kent (28:50):
it wasn't nearly as bad as
midways, it wasn't answering me.
I asked almost all time.
Cause what happened was we had thiswhole thing because shared tech yes.
Was it mid wage to a much greaterscale, but we just had DX two
and three in the building.
and so thief three, you know,the first two thief games,
all about lighting, right?
Like,
you know, turning lights on and off.
Yeah.
I don't think it was like superstrong dynamic lighting in terms of
(29:10):
like swing lights, but it was, thewater arrow, you shoot the torch out
and now becomes dark and it's safe.
And so they're like, we have to havedynamic lighting for thief three.
And so they had to rewrite the renderof cause I'm real to did not have that.
And so we had
to rewrite the renderer and then theywere just like, oh yeah, well, if
we're doing it for this game, then wecan't support two lighting systems.
So DXC was just going to have tohave dynamic lighting too, which
(29:32):
we didn't want to need, you know,the first game had stealth, but
it wasn't light-based stealth.
It was more like geometry basedstuff like hiding Sightlines
distances, stuff like that.
And so basically we had to inherit thatlighting on DX two and one by one, there
was like this cascade of knock ons becausethe lighting couldn't handle it, we
just couldn't start doing other stuff.
So it was like, well, we're also switchingto have It cause we weren't realistic
(29:53):
physics, but at the time havoc didn'thave like a good parent child system.
So all of a sudden wehad to cut elevators.
So there's no moving elevatorsin the game, even though DX
one had moving elevators.
And I was like, well, havocdoesn't support water physics yet.
And so we also got a cup of water.
So all of a sudden swimming wasgone, which like, people don't
love about the X one, but like, itis a part of the DNA of the game.
And you know, somepeople like those so many
paths and it gives
John (30:14):
into the water, go in the tunnel.
Yeah.
Kent (30:16):
yeah, exactly.
And then it gives you an alternate path.
Like it's not worthless even ifthe swimming is not that fun.
we had these big terrain maps causeon row two had the terrain, you know,
real easy, you know, I had sculptingtools and so you're just painting
terrains and Hills and stuff like that.
Like, oh, sorry.
Well the lighting engine can'tput light on terrain, so we
got to cut the train.
So we were just chopping, chopping,chopping, chopping down because it's tech.
John (30:34):
Usually it's the
other way around, right?
It's like, usually it's like,we're going to go in this direction
with tech to give us more, not
Kent (30:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And it did for thief.
It made sense for thief, but it was, awhole thing of, of sharing tech because we
had a shared tech group within the studio.
And those people were supportingboth games and you know, I get it.
You can't support both, but it'slike, okay, you know, in hindsight,
should we maybe branch at a certainpoint and just said, look, you can
have the tech team for the lighting
Y'all go do that.
And we'll just stick withwhatever comes with unreal.
Like, you know, maybewe could've done that.
(31:01):
Hindsight's 20, 20, shit.
That was 20 years ago.
So 20, 20, 20,
John (31:05):
Remember the same should
happen to make midway though.
Right.
It was
Kent (31:08):
Yeah.
John (31:08):
a bunch of the
engine, make trying to
Kent (31:10):
Yeah.
John (31:11):
that it's not
natively good at doing.
Kent (31:13):
Yup.
make an
open world games
with an engine that had nevershipped an open world game.
John (31:18):
make an about working a criminal.
you know, the team that hung on forpallet and right, it was just like,
yo, forget the midway Frankenstein.
just going to go on vanilla withall the support drops and go forward.
Right.
And they they made hugeprogress in like little
Kent (31:32):
Yeah.
John (31:33):
so what like design
storm gets shut down or
little.
Kent (31:37):
we were seen by IDaaS is
basically this expensive company
that made nerdy games that had no mamainstream appeal, you know, like the
ASX and the thief games, which werelike fantasy nerdy, and that whole
thing is why T3 was third person.
The team didn't want to do that, butI asked, I just kind of forced it
because they thought their personis more accessible for whatever
reason, marketing who knows.
and so basically they came in andHarvey left to go try to do a startup.
(32:01):
He was going to do a startupthat, that a bunch of us were
gonna try and do with them.
So he left first and it was like,oh boy, y'all were expensive.
Your games are breaking even, butnot setting the world on fire.
One of your main creatives just left.
And so eventually they came in andthey should a big round of layoffs
and they laid off like, DX three wasin development and they laid off.
A huge chunk of the studio.
Like not everybody, but itwas like, maybe two thirds.
(32:23):
I don't know exactly like itwas a pretty big death pose.
because I've seen this multiple timesin my career, unfortunately, like,
it's one of those where if we lay off,most people, we can call it one thing.
And then six months later, no, one's goingto notice if we shut the rest of it down.
So it was one of those, it's like a,
two-stage sorta like, this is thehit that puts you in the coma.
And then six months laterwe'll pull the plug type deal.
John (32:42):
That's why they do it.
Huh?
Kent (32:43):
yeah, so, so ton of people
got laid off including me.
my mind was blown because thiswas like right after reviews.
And I had gotten this glowingreview and like this huge raise.
And they were like, oh my God, you didsuch a good job on DX to think you did it.
And I was like, oh my God, I found a home.
You know, like, I'm good.
John (32:59):
You're on cloud nine, man.
You thinking you're good And untouchable.
Kent (33:01):
Yeah.
The, the writing was on thewall that something was up.
Like I remember towards the end ofmy time at ion storm, the desktop
background on my work computer wasa picture of the Titanic sinking.
Like, no, this is going down.
And I was like a jerk about it.
Right.
Like I was, I even had that picture printout on a shirt and on the back of said,
peace out, like, I'll wear that shirt to
work.
John (33:20):
the type of dude that goes
and make sure it's about this shit.
I love it.
Kent (33:24):
so this, this was 25 minutes.
It didn't know any better.
it wasn't a surprise.
My surprise was that I got caught upin it because I was like, you know,
you just told me I was doing awesome.
Gave me a good raise,what the hell happened.
I can't remember who exactly told me, butone of the people, you know, one of the
leads or directors who was in the roomwhere they were literally just making
the list, you know, who stays, who goes.
John (33:43):
Yeah.
Kent (33:44):
People were like,
oh Yeah, What about Ken?
I was like, well, he stays.
And then one person was like,well, everybody knows he's
going to go with Harvey start-up
John (33:50):
Wow,
Kent (33:52):
branded as one of the people who's
going to join Harvey, which was true.
Like, I was going to go with Harveystartup as well as a bunch of people
who it wasn't as public, And soapparently they went to bat for me,
like Ricardo and, someone else went tobat for me, they couldn't reverse that.
Cause once I was branded as youknow, going with, with Harvey,
they were like, well, he's gone.
John (34:09):
you can't take that.
too bad.
That's a pretty smart strategic move on
this
Kent (34:13):
yeah, I get
it?
I mean like, the whole layoff sucked, but
John (34:15):
you got this player.
Who's going to leavein free agency anyway.
So
Kent (34:20):
let we get value.
Yeah.
here's the twist to thatstory, which always makes me
laugh is, so I'm despondent.
Cause I'm like, look,this is my dream job.
I was only here three years.
I just got laid off out of nowhere.
Like I had no clue this was happening.
So I'm like, I'm
like crushed.
I don't know where I want to go.
Yeah.
And it hurts.
And so I'm sitting there and thenlike over the weekend and like into
Monday, I want to say it was Ricardoand maybe a couple other people, but
(34:43):
they basically work out a deal whereEinstein will offer me a contract to stay.
So they're like, okay, you're partof the layoff, we're going to give
you a contract if you want to stay.
And you can work here on contractand keep working on DX three.
And I thought about it for a
couple of days
and
John (34:57):
that because they
save a bunch of money
bringing you on this contract.
Kent (35:00):
cause I was good at my job and
they wanted to keep me straight up.
Like it was there.
They were just like, wecan't get rid of this guy.
You know, we want to keep them.
, after everybody's like you, they werelike, you like go this guy and they
went and basically worked out a dealjust for me to try to bring me back.
So this wasn't likepart of the layoff plan.
This was all after the fact, but the funnything is, is like also during that time
I was talking to Harvey and he was like,Hey, we're pretty close to getting signed.
(35:21):
I think it's gonna be pretty quick.
You know, like we've talkingto two different publishers, I
forget who it was at the time.
and so I went in to the guy who's runningthe company, this guy, Trey, I went in
like on a Tuesday because he was like,Hey, come on in, let's talk, we've got
this contract option for, if you want tostay, we can keep you on his contract.
You know, we're not allowed to do hiresright now because just lay layoffs,
but we're allowed to have contractors.
So if you want to comeback, here's the contract.
(35:43):
And I turned it down because I wasconvinced that our company, our startup
was going to be in like a couplemonths since I was like, no, I'm good.
I'm gonna go do the startup instead.
And I'll never forget.
I got up.
And I walked out of his officeand I went to the design pit
to just tell everybody goodbye.
One more time to just say, you know, I'dalready gotten my stuff out, but I was
like, Hey, I just wanna like guys let's,you know, thanks for what you did for me.
But I turned it down to the thingthat scan could go I'll never forget.
(36:06):
Trey had got on the, officepaging system or whatever.
he's like, Ricardo, Bayer, couldyou come to my office, Ricardo,
please Ricardo to my office.
Cause he was like, so surprisedthat I had turned it down.
He was like, Ricardo,we need to talk right
John (36:17):
oh shit.
Kent (36:19):
remember hearing
Paige and be like, Yeah.
Yeah, thought I was the man.
Now the flip side of that story isthat company never off the ground.
So I've spent like nine months,you know, and I turned down other
contracts in that time too, like Iwas going to go work on, um, what was
it, brothers in arms that gained thatgearbox did I was going to do like
some level of signed contract work on.
the contractor was there and I was, andI was like, well, you know, it sounds
like our startups will be off the groundpretty soon, so I'm going to have to pass.
(36:41):
So I was sitting there waiting,waiting, waiting, collecting
unemployment, it never happened.
And so when that fell through,Harvey ended up signing on at midway
and then he hired me back there.
So that's how I ended up in midway.
And then at some point, all of myin storm got shut down completely,
you know, like after the fact.
So that's when Ricardo Monte, Steve,did Kaleena, you know, a bunch of people
(37:02):
came over from that ion storm team,here's one piece of advice I'll give
to anyone who's trying to sign a deal,
any kind of deal, be it, your startup,it's not sign until it's signed.
I wish I had taken not the ion storm one.
Cause that just stung too bad.
You know?
Like, I, I didn't mind turn that down,but like, you know, that brothers in
arms contract or was like, why can'tsign up for three months because
our company is going to start.
(37:22):
I gotta be there on day one.
It's
like, I should've justsaid a three months.
And if the company started, I camein like, well, as soon as I finished
my contract, it'd be right there.
But I got to see this out.
Like, but in my mind it was like, itwas always so close and it's like, look
until it's signed, it's not signed.
And so if you need to do whatever topay your bills and do whatever take the
gig because it's, it's a burden of hand.
John (37:42):
there's the promise of something
and that's always a moving target
versus rock solid contract, ready to go.
Has a finite term going to pay you money.
Which one do you take?
Take the fucking hard,
paper.
Sign it, get your money.
And moving fictional thingwill always be there.
Kent (38:01):
It will always be there and
like it, as deals get bigger,
it's real easy to get a deal to thepoint both sides are like, Yeah.
this sounds great.
Let's do it.
Like this makes sense.
I like where we're at moneyseems to be good in principle.
Like the arrangement seems good.
Cool.
We'll just have the lawyers draw it up.
And then that indefinitetime period between
John (38:22):
Yeah.
Kent (38:23):
can agree in principle and it
can still take for freaking ever, like,
John (38:26):
That's good advice.
you know, mom do, has always told me,it's like, yo, don't tell anybody about
any moves you making until it happens.
Right?
Like, there'll be like,Hey, I got this new job aid.
The interview went well, they'regoing to offer me the thing.
I'm just waiting on the terms.
Okay.
I'm
going to sign.
Okay.
I'm waiting to start like,for that same reason, right.
It could blow up at any point untilyour name is on the dotted line.
(38:50):
I've been in situations.
I've seen people put in theirresignation notice, yeah.
Took this job a sign and then,you know, counter offer or
something random else happens.
Right.
Where people renege or pull back.
I seen it happen.
I've seen it happen at fucking Amazon.
So you had midway
Kent (39:10):
I'll tell you one thing we got laid
off, in June early, June, Austin, Texas.
so that whole summer, me and acouple other news, my friend, Chris
Corolla, who he was also in midway,
he was
John (39:21):
Carollo.
Kent (39:22):
Yep.
And Brian Sharp he's beena valve ever since midway
went
down.
John (39:25):
is Brian at Facebook or
Kent (39:28):
he was for awhile.
He was for a long time.
Cause he, yeah, because hecreated, he created that, medium.
It's it's the sculpting.
the 3d sculpting VRF.
He created that very earlyand he was part of Oculus?
story studio.
They were kind of like a team that kindof, I think they got acquired with ACO
studio story studio into, into Facebook.
And then story studio got shut down,which I was also part of third time.
(39:50):
I got laid off of my career.
but the media team had spun out.
So he was there for a while.
He sold, to story studio andthen to Facebook or whatever.
So, you know, that was his company.
And so he was at Facebook for a long time.
He's out now.
And I cannot remember where he signed on
with now, but me and him and Brian,that summer, what I did was I went
to the pool and I went to the gymand that was the one time everybody's
(40:11):
got that one period in their lifewhere they were freaking jacked.
John (40:13):
jacked and tan looking
Kent (40:15):
Yeah.
That's summer is when I was tanned.
And Jack's
John (40:22):
what do they call it?
Kent (40:23):
of 2004.
John (40:24):
heard it, man.
It's like the flyboys summer or PDavidson has another term for me.
He calls it like, I'm going to, I'mgoing to edit this song with people,
but for you and me was like the bigDick summer or something like that, man.
Kent (40:36):
Well, you call it that, but like
that's, that's when, uh, that summers
on a camping trip out of the lakeis when I hooked up with Christine.
And that's why I'm
married now.
John (40:44):
snap.
So
Kent (40:45):
Yeah.
John (40:46):
she met you in your flight
test and free you kind of free
Kent (40:51):
Yeah, exactly.
John (40:52):
the time in the world.
Cause you know, I always feel like that'sthe allure of, let's say rich people
or people that are well off, right.
Is there is that appeal of, wow,this person has no constraints or
responsibilities or can just take offon the drop of a diamond, go on some
adventure or something like that.
And so on the flip side of that, man, whohas lived in living off fund employment,
(41:14):
lifting, getting sun super fun.
No worries.
Right?
It has the
same exact appeal.
Damn.
Kent (41:21):
I don't think Travis.
John (41:23):
lake Travis, yo, is
that, is that the same one?
You can go floating down
Kent (41:28):
No, that's um, I know
what you're talking about.
That's the, as the riversthat the Guadalupe river.
John (41:34):
that it could be, it
has to be a river, right?
It's not
going to be a still bodied
lake.
Kent (41:38):
Travis was the big, was
the big lake with the cliffs.
You could jump off
John (41:41):
Oh shit.
Yo, I love it.
I love the dots connecting.
Right?
Like maybe if you had taken a jobsomewhere or one of the contracts
turned into some full-time thing, youwouldn't have been able to get Jack
to get 10 meet, your significant other
Kent (41:59):
that's right.
John (42:00):
dude.
Kent (42:00):
My life is a weird thing.
John (42:02):
so eventually delivers
on his promise or his word.
He's like, yo, I'm gonna get you.
I'm gonna get you a job.
And he lends up midwayand he brings you on,
Kent (42:13):
That's right.
John (42:14):
what the hell are you doing?
And midway where you always own criminal.
Did you come in like.
Kent (42:18):
Yeah.
It's, it's funny.
Cause like.
I remember when I was interviewing withHarvey, we were at Frank and Angie's
that pizza place down in Austin.
I was interviewing even, and he toldme like, they have this game, think
it had been at another studio and ithad like been taken from that studio
or something, or it hadn't gone well,or the studio had gone under somebody.
So they had this, this gamecalled career criminal.
That was like a PS two gamethat I don't think it ever like
(42:40):
even got announced or anything.
It's just like a, a game that of thosestudios in midway had somehow they'd
lost it in some way and like, Hey, they,you know, they think it's a cool idea.
They want to re-imagine it.
And so I remember sitting with themand even before I came on being like,
look, man, I don't want to do a gameabout killing a bunch of people.
I was like, because at thattime, like GTA, was it right?
Like GTA three was still so big,even at this point in, this was
(43:04):
late 2004, 2005, vice city St.
Andreas, like GTA, was
John (43:10):
Fresh out yet.
Kent (43:11):
Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and like midwaywas like open world games.
Are it we're going to follow the trend.
Everything's gotta be up inthe world, blah, blah, blah.
And so I was like, I don'twant to make just some violent
chaos, shoot them up game.
And so I was like, what if we immuneHarvey, unsurprisingly for, a couple
of nerdy dudes, fans of the movie heat.
And so I was like, what if wemade it like a thinking man's
(43:32):
like heist game, you know,
John (43:33):
Yeah.
Kent (43:34):
the place.
The point is to not kill people andyou try to just sort of like, you know,
intimidate them and get out withouthurting anybody and dah, dah, dah.
So what if we made it like that?
So that that could work.
That could work.
So I remember even pitching thatbefore I even signed on, but I
just signed on as a game designer.
certainly not a level designer,especially not an open world game.
I just signed on as a game designerand Steven Monte were there too.
(43:56):
Ricardo went to, Warren'scompany for awhile.
He didn't join midwaytill the piece later.
he went to Warren's companyon a project that never
got announced.
Yeah.
Because they were workingon something else.
And then, something happened,it didn't get greenlit or got
canceled or something like that.
And that's when theyswitched to epic Mickey.
And I, think that like Ricardo wasinterested in the other project,
wasn't interested in epic making itlike something else fell through.
(44:16):
I think they had a projectwith valve or something.
John (44:18):
after midway, I interviewed
for epic Mickey I was all
about it.
I was like, oh yeah, man.
I look, cause you know, I'm a biggameplay guy and like, oh shit, I love
this like physics puzzles, you know,this deep materialize and materialize
objects and things like this.
just this amazing smallecosystem of talent and projects.
If you're just in Austin, like youdon't really have to leave Austin.
(44:41):
And I know a few peoplethat have never left Austin
Kent (44:44):
absolutely
John (44:45):
and been fine.
Kent (44:46):
that's a big list.
That's a big list.
and like, after midway Iwas like, look, this is two
companies down that I've been at.
And like at that time, the Austin scenewas kind of at its it's low point.
John (44:55):
Yeah.
A lot of shit was coming down.
Right.
The little housing bubble crisiswas hitting everybody hard.
I thought, I thought that'swhat led to Midway's downfall.
I see.
When you do research on like thered stones or whatever, there's
it was a whole bunch of mad moneythings going on way above their game
studios.
Right?
Like at the Viacom level.
Kent (45:15):
Oh yeah.
I mean, I hadn't heard thatname Redstone in so long.
Wow.
Yeah.
John (45:19):
is it some nerd Redstone
Kent (45:21):
I'm going to Redstone.
Yeah,
John (45:22):
his daughter and I don't
know if you watched succession.
I love the fuck out of this type of worldwhere it's like, Hey, we're the family and
kids of a major media conglomerate, andthis is our life and this is how we roll.
And these are the problems that affectus at this unsurmountable level.
And I think about the red stones inthat fashion, like I was like, oh yeah,
man, they just kind of push each other.
you know, here's a movie productioncompany or here's a news company
(45:45):
and you own this and you cut up that
Kent (45:47):
I'm going to have to see succession.
I've had it recommended so many times.
I don't know why I've never watched it,
but I'll check it out.
I met daughter cause I think, cause atthe time he was like really up there.
He was, you know, in his likelate eighties or something.
I met his daughter, his daughterand she was, you know, mid sixties
or something like not crazy.
old, but, getting up there too.
So he was definitely the mogul,the old mogul, you know, the
adult kids running the family.
John (46:08):
yeah,
Kent (46:09):
her briefly.
I think I did a little show andtell demo for her of our game.
It was like one of these like meetand greet studio visits where it's
like, she's going to be here for fiveminutes or the game for five minutes.
Then she gets whiskedoff to the next thing.
John (46:18):
damn.
Kent (46:19):
like, you know, she took me
out to the Ritz-Carlton or whatever.
It was just like, she stoppedby the office for five minutes.
John (46:23):
It could have been
dangerous for you.
Can't
Kent (46:25):
Yeah.
What a wild time man.
John (46:27):
before you would jump out of
Austin, I gotta, I just gotta take time
and reminisce too while we can aboutjust the promise of a kid coming out of
school and being like, yo PS 3, 360 titlelooking as good as gears of war did.
And we're shipping this sucker ina year and then after that, you're
going to roll on to criminal, whichis this again, it was pitched as.
(46:50):
Take the movie heat like heist stylegame, with a crew and different
archetypes and planning and all thisshit and, and, and open the world.
Right?
So it's just like, holy shit.
I'm going to go work on aco-operative first-person shooter
of pretty cool systems and thenmove into like an open world game.
And it's going to be midway regularly.
(47:11):
I don't care who you are, whereyou at at the time, but midway
is still a huge household name inthat video game publisher space.
Kent (47:18):
yeah.
Back then You knew the M
that read him.
John (47:21):
the red Amber, oh man.
And I used to love theway would do all hands.
Right.
That way we would kind of go to theAlamo we would do a show and tell with
Kent (47:30):
Ah,
John (47:32):
Right.
Not just what Wilson was doing,but midway Chicago when midway,
uh, San Diego and midway.
Yeah.
Kent (47:40):
and moral
John (47:41):
see, we would see, modal combat.
We would see there wasthe project called Vegas.
We would see wheel man with theair Jack legendary air Jack move
Kent (47:50):
That came shipped, right?
That came shipped.
Yeah.
I got,
so much respect for the twoteams, three casino wrestling,
the
three teams, the shift out of that
TNA wrestling ship.
Unreal at 60 frames.
A second.
and like stranglehold here's thebig shout out to stranglehold.
And like, this is a qualifiedshout out because they crunch
that, team into the ground.
And so this is not a success storyfrom that perspective, but you have
(48:11):
to respect, they shipped an unrealthree title on PS three before.
on PS three, which wasa beast to develop for
the PSU was a beast.
John (48:20):
epic hadn't figured out
how to optimize their tech.
They was still figuring itout for them damn selves.
Right.
Let alone all their likeunreal three licensees.
Kent (48:27):
Yeah.
And they're doing all the, they're doingall the gear stuff, which is X-Box.
John (48:30):
Yeah, exactly.
It was Microsoft funded.
And so they didn't have to worry fuckall about PS three until I think it was
a midway deal for unreal Torney yeah.
Unreal tournament on the PS
three,
Kent (48:45):
is unreal
game.
I'm returning it
to, I don't know.
Yeah.
John (48:50):
that was the chance to
like now we got to figure out
PS three, once we figure out
Kent (48:53):
Yeah.
John (48:54):
we'll drop update.
So
Kent (48:55):
But stranglehold did at first
though, they did it before epic
did that as respect right there.
John (49:00):
Heck yeah, there you go.
so many action games and, andwe'll get, you know, we got
demos out on X bla, right.
I remember a couple of weeks in, I waslike, yo, you know, calling the family,
yo, we got a demo next bla, my brotherlike literally like rolled out of bed,
hit the download buttons like yo bro,playing your game and giving all this love
and
Kent (49:19):
gas station demo
or nice.
John (49:23):
yes, Yeah.
With the ends with the, I forget whatwe call a man, but it was like the
Spire or something like that, that would
Kent (49:29):
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
John (49:31):
slow motion matrix.
Right.
Bullet time was all therage back in those days,
so,
Kent (49:36):
I remember that.
And you had, you had that one, youhad that one, a monster that you
would kill, but the legs were blowoff and it would keep crawling at you.
There was that one too.
Okay.
John (49:46):
yeah.
there was like these half,half man cybernetic things.
Right.
And so
Kent (49:50):
Yeah.
And if you.
blew the legs off, the top would
still,
yeah.
John (49:54):
Yeah.
That was, last of us techbefore it's time for sure.
I tell people that damn man,it was, it was a golden era.
I mean, I kind of wentthrough what you went through.
I don't know, not, not a fulldecade later, but similar situation.
Right?
The first studio of Paris.
Crazy industry veterans.
I didn't even know.
I would just hear you guys talk andit'd be like, those guys sound like
(50:14):
they know what to do, but to me it'slike Scott Lang Scott Carpenter.
Kent (50:19):
The Scott's
John (50:21):
uh, you, uh, Ricardo
Jim Stifel.
My, yeah, Jim STI for my like mentorshiplevel that if I knew better, right.
If I knew what I knew now, right.
It just be like, yo, I willbuy you motherfuckers lunch.
Like, let, let me, let me just absorband sponge stories and knowledge and
(50:45):
like, how do I get better at my job?
Because the wealth of experience andgame development pedigree and the
shit you guys have built in and theproblems you got solved on the crazy
tech that you guys were standingup, and then at the same time, I'm
hanging out with all my homies, right?
Like all the people I went to collegewith midway Austin was kind of like
my, I could say postgraduate degree,man, but it was definitely living
(51:08):
on a college budget in a, in a greattown at the time, comparatively to
California and all these other places,Seattle, you can go out and hit the
Kent (51:17):
Awesome man.
Awesome.
That's fun.
John (51:20):
under a dollars fucking good times.
but all good things,inevitably must come to an end.
You get to two came a rent, but beforewe get there and you leave in midway,
we know you met your wife there.
We know you got to workwith your own homeys.
got to creative director, maybe fasterthan you should have, but you did.
Kent (51:41):
Definitely
John (51:42):
what takeaways do you have,
from ion storm now yet midway.
Now you've got this whole teamwith this amazing project that
has all the promise in the world.
Stupid business shit tiedto it as though as usual.
what takeaways you have,man, when criminal went under
and we all got disbanded.
Kent (52:01):
If you work in this
industry long enough, you're
going to have projects canceled.
You're going to get laid off, or you'regoing to have, you know, disappointments,
you're going to have a project thatdid not work out as well as you thought
sometimes, you're a part of that.
Sometimes it's out of your hands,but, ultimately I don't look
back with any regret about it.
I mean, partly I'm not a regretperson, but like I don't look back
(52:22):
with regret on it because bothand ion storm and at midway, I was
trying stuff that was ambitious.
That was, was it the limitsof what my abilities were?
So I was growing and I was alwayspushing and I was like engaged.
And I believed in what I was doing.
Like I've never worked on a game whereI felt like I was punching a clock
(52:45):
or where I was, working on something.
I didn't give a crap about actually,well, we'll get to, to Cameron in a bit,
because one project that I did, I didfeel, I didn't feel like I was punching
a clock, but I was very miserable.
but even, you know, three and a halfyears for game that never even got
announced and got laid off, you know,some people would say, wow, that's
three and a half years of your career.
But I made great friendsand great relationships.
I mean, I met all you guysand gals, Juliana, shout out
John (53:09):
Yo she's like, like a
real estate mogul now down in
Kent (53:12):
really a mogul.
Wow.
But
John (53:15):
in this space of.
bringing big tech and dataanalytics and all of that to the, to
Kent (53:21):
oh wow.
John (53:22):
you know, and, and doing good with
her, with her husband and his going well.
Kent (53:26):
Nice.
Go for them, man.
That's awesome.
But yeah, but, but like metgreat people, worked on stuff.
Did cool.
Interesting.
No game mechanics and gameplay featureslearned so much, you know, both about
myself and about design and how gameswork and like, you know, often, I
mean, it's a cliche, but like often youlearn more from failures and successes
John (53:47):
We have, we have
such a diverse team too.
That's something I take for granted.
Like was my first gig, right.
So I'm just like, oh, this ishow it's always going to be.
We're going to have a great mixof, of, youth and age and wisdom
backgrounds and languages and cultures.
Right.
It was like, this is games.
This is the norm.
And then you move aroundand you're like, oh shit,
Kent (54:06):
yeah.
John (54:07):
this.
Yeah.
Kent (54:08):
Yeah.
It was wild, man.
It was wild.
We had such a good crew.
but like ultimately after both of thosethings, it's like, I look back and
I'm, there's a saying I'm, I'm, I'vegot a deep, deep, deep bag of sayings.
Um, but, but
John (54:20):
you do true.
Kent (54:21):
is, um, at the end of it, all
we'll have is how we behave during it.
no matter how it goes, you canlook back, how did I handle
myself during that situation?
And what did I get from it?
How did I behave?
You know, did I learn, did I growthat treat other people the right way?
You know, death support people wasempathetic and stuff like that.
So, I guess even though it looks like, youknow, failures on paper, when a project
(54:43):
is canceled in the studio gets shut down.
I don't think of it as wasted time.
I don't have regrets about it.
I don't wish I'd done somethingdifferent because you know, it
was probably as part of the storyand you take what you can from it.
And I learned so much from people andlearn so much about making gains and
mistakes, not to make and met so manygreat people that like, it's a bummer
that it went how it did, but you know,it also helped me avoid other mistakes
(55:05):
in the future and see riding on those.
When I started seeing similar writingon the wall, you know, I got out like
2 of the things that I, I answered,like I said, I knew it was going down.
I stayed anyway.
Cause that's had stupid hope.
John (55:16):
never want that
Titanic shirt at midway.
Thank goodness.
Kent (55:20):
oh Yeah.
Once you're in a leadership position,you've got to project a certain thing.
John (55:24):
how I saw that you carry yourself
was always willing to acknowledge not
knowing something and, and always giving aspace or a voice to everybody in the room.
Right.
To be like, how do you see it?
How do you see, how do you see,okay, I'm hearing all these ideas.
What if we go this way kind of thing.
And I thought that's somethingI always carried with me.
It'd be like, yo, that's, a strongway to handle directing a team.
(55:45):
Right.
Giving everybody a voice.
I mean, you know, there's a flip sideto that of like, what, what happens
when hard decisions need to be made?
Right.
but you were saying,
Kent (55:53):
cause like the thing that you just
described is also like something you
kind of can't teach like that empathypiece of it as a, as a leader, like
either have it or you don't, you, you,you truly care about how people feel and
if they're comfortable and if they feellike contributing or not, you know, like,
and so I always had that, but I didn't.
Like, I didn't know what directionwas when I was a creative director.
Like, I didn't know howto give good direction.
So I would give, you know, I would try togive people freedom, make sure to listen,
(56:15):
everybody, give everybody a voice, haveopen door and all the stuff like that.
But people also want to know, you know,sort of the guidelines and the parameters
of, of where they want to do their work.
You know, you need to give peoplewhat I call liberating constraints.
You know, like you need to say know,here's the direction needs to meet this.
And within this box or withinthis framework, be creative
and do whatever you want.
I don't know what solutionyou're gonna come up with.
and the more you practice, the moreyou can give direction, you know, like
(56:38):
the yardstick for good direction is ifyou give direction and someone comes
back with an idea, regardless of whatyou think about it, if it meets your
direction, then they did what you asked.
if you don't like it, or if it exposessome flaw with your thinking, or if
it's something that meets all thatstuff, and it's not good for some
reason, or it breaks something else,then that means your direction.
Wasn't good enough.
And you need to revisit the direction.
Does it need to change, or do youneed to do a better next time?
(57:00):
But like, it's just all about tryingto give people the right space
and constraints to do work and becreative and have autonomy within that
Um, and that's something that like,I'll probably never stop learning
because that's really hard to do.
John (57:10):
those were things that you
figured out afterwards, right?
To be like, yo, we
Kent (57:15):
Yeah.
John (57:15):
bunch of freedom.
You gave a bunch of autonomyand that was great, but we could
have definitely benefited froma bit more constraining, right.
Kent (57:22):
Yeah.
John (57:23):
let's go in this direction, you
Kent (57:25):
Yup.
Yup.
I
didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn'tknow what that was, but like, so
that's what I meant, like way early on.
I was like, I was not good atthat job, the first two companies
I was at, a true believer.
I was like, making this stuff.
It's creative.
It's cool.
I'm working with my friends.
And both times I knewthe writing was on the
John (57:39):
Perfect.
Kent (57:39):
and I knew it was going down and
just stayed anyway, because at that point
in my career, it sounds stupid to saynow, but I didn't know that I was allowed
to prioritize my own happiness or myown goals or my own wellbeing and quit.
I just didn't know that if you'rein a situation that's bad for you
or the situation, you don't thinkit's going anywhere or whatever.
I didn't know.
You could quit.
I didn't know.
You could prioritize yourown mental health, your own
(58:01):
happiness, your own sanity.
And so I kinda just like walked into it.
Like I knew it was going down in astate anyway, like one of the weirdest
meetings I've ever had was I knew, Iknew the week before that we were going
to get shut down on that coming Monday
John (58:15):
Is that just because
they do like a whole leadership
meeting, executive meeting thing?
Kent (58:19):
yes and no, it actually,
there was a game developer, message
board called quarter to three wasit course there's some sort of
like anonymous message board thing.
And someone posted a rumoron like the Tuesday before we
were going to get shut down.
And I think it was someone from theMidwest Chicago studio who somehow
it found out and they were like,Hey, the Austin city is getting shut
down on Monday or massive layoffs.
(58:39):
Like, you know, end up 80% of the super
John (58:42):
yeah.
Kent (58:42):
And so I went to Denise's office,
John (58:45):
Denise Fulton.
Yeah.
Kent (58:46):
yeah.
Denise Fulton.
Um, I went to her office and I waslike, Hey, I just read this thing.
It's wild.
Like, is this true?
And she was like, what?
John (58:53):
That's another thing.
Kent (58:54):
it either.
John (58:55):
A female studio head, right?
Like how, like how, how awesome was thatstudio constructed, but yeah, go on.
Kent (59:02):
Especially 2008, the,
John (59:04):
Yeah.
Kent (59:05):
through to get there,
like So much respect.
John (59:06):
So you go into office.
Kent (59:08):
so I go into her office.
and she's like, what, what?
And she goes and looks at twoand she's like, give me a second.
like, she probably knew at thatpoint, but it was a surprise to
her that had been leaked that way.
So, you know, I, at some point therewas like a small leadership meeting.
It was like, Hey, this is going to happen.
And so, you know, get prepared for it.
And so, uh, and I knew Iwas going to be gone too.
(59:28):
Like, you know, she had the, thecourtesy to tell me that I was going
to be part of the left because theywere laying off our entire freaking
team.
John (59:33):
the whole team.
Kent (59:34):
but the weirdest thing was that
happened to be the end of a milestone.
And so we had an all day planning meetingon that Thursday for the milestone.
We were kicking off Monday, and I knewthat we were getting shut down on Monday.
And so I had to sit there as thecreative director of the project
in a milestone planning meeting foreight hours that day, and be actively
engaged in planning a milestone.
I knew it was never going to happen.
(59:55):
And like, even to the degree of like,oh, well, you know, if we can't fit
this in, let's push it out to thenext milestone that can go out here.
Like, horse trading forfeatures and stuff like that.
Just knowing the whole time, thisis all going boom, on Monday.
So that was weird.
one of the other lessons, basicallythe idea is if you work on stuff
that's engaging to you and interestingto you and drives you and fulfills
(01:00:16):
you, then the outcome of it,isn't the most important thing.
It's great when it goes great.
But even if it goes down, you have
those lessons to take with you andthat growth that you had to take
with you, and that's always worth it.
If you're doing it for the wrongreasons, if you're only motivated
by the end project, if you're like,oh man, I hate this kind of game.
I don't like this game at all, butI'm going to work on it because
(01:00:37):
I'm gonna get a bonus or becauseyou know, it's a big title.
It's going to look good on my resume.
Even though I hateworking on it, who cares?
Like it's not worth it.
you have to follow what mattersto you and find your own, drive
a motivation, enjoying it.
And if you're working on stuffthat you believe in, then whatever
the outcome is is worth it.
So that's why I don'tregret those, companies.
Because like when I was there and thestuff I learned, I was doing it because
(01:00:58):
I wanted to, and I got up every day,cause I believed in what I was doing.
And so, when you have that,then it can only be so bad.
But, the second piece is that like, yeah.
I didn't know.
I could prioritize my own happiness.
And so when am I third, soon notto jump ahead, but, but at two came
around when things went really souththere, I finally quit a job when I
knew things were going really bad.
John (01:01:15):
Prioritize your mental
health and it's okay to quit
when things aren't going well.
it's weird.
Right?
I got an M never, haven'tbeen in that position to be
like, yo, you're a director.
It's your team.
It's your project.
It's your baby.
Do you have to go down with the ship?
Kent (01:01:30):
that was an aspect of it.
Like once you're that highof a leadership position is a
lot harder to leave for sure.
but yeah, in a two K when I quit, Ialmost lost it people like probably
three different times at the studiowhen I told them I was leaving.
Cause I was just like,like I'm abandoning people.
I feel like I'm letting you do it.
And like
John (01:01:46):
time.
It was your
Kent (01:01:47):
my first time
I ever quitting and like,
John (01:01:49):
as hard,
man.
Kent (01:01:50):
it was a, horrible, horrible
year of my life working on, on
the game after Bioshock two.
And I, like, I had to, I had to getout like there's no, there was no way
I couldn't do it, but it was, but,you know, but at that point I learned
that it was, it was the right call.
I mean, they, again, that studio gotshipped up game that didn't do well and
wasn't received well and got shut down.
Like it was the writingon the wall there too.
And like, I,
John (01:02:11):
I guess you develop that knack
for the signs after seeing them twice.
Kent (01:02:16):
I mean, it's not exactly
reading the tea leaves when, when
everybody's unhappy and the game'snot going well and people are fighting
and the direction keeps changing.
You're like, like it's, you don't needthird eye vision to like understand,
you know, things aren't going too
good.
John (01:02:28):
I think it's worth mentioning and
reemphasizing prioritize your happiness.
You're not going to doing yourteam any favors in the long
run, if you really hate in life.
you're doing them a favor.
If you can kind of rip the bandaid offand let them someone else up into the
role that is excited for it, or can bringsomething to it or they can start hiring
Kent (01:02:47):
yeah,
John (01:02:48):
and, and ultimately
you're in a better spot,
Kent (01:02:51):
yeah.
I mean, and this, and this is going tosound more nihilistic or pessimistic
than it's intended to, but like, inthe end, even if you have the most
supportive empathetic manager, greatstudio culture, all the supports
around you at the company, like.
in the end, you're the only onethat knows what's going on with you.
And you're the only one who really knowsinside what's going on, what the situation
(01:03:15):
is, what you're dealing with, what's goingon in your personal life, what's going on
with your mental health, whatever it is.
And so ultimately you're theonly one that knows that stuff.
And regardless of the pressure you feel,or the, how you think other people will
take it or whatever, like in the end,there's no one looking out for you,
but you, and that true sense, you know,not that there aren't people looking
out to support you and stuff like that.
But like, and I'm not trying to saylike being narcissistic and selfish
(01:03:36):
and self centered, but ultimately,gotta be honest with yourself and
sometimes you, you know, you have tomake those hard decisions because nobody
truly knows what's going on inside.
If you're reallystruggling with something.
So,
John (01:03:45):
I've been laid off a bunch of times,
so I never had to make the hard decision.
And then over the pasthandful of years, yeah.
To, to, to make that hard decisionto be like, I'm a part of this team.
You consider you guys my team,but I have a better opportunity.
got to put in notice andit's damn hard to quit.
It's damn hard to quit.
(01:04:06):
It takes conviction and Sand committing to yourself.
But yeah, I think putting yourselffirst and making the decision and being
like, yo, this is what's best for me.
And I got to do
it.
Kent (01:04:18):
and I don't want to cast it.
in the way that like always belooking out for yourself, whatever.
Cause I've never, in a good situationto being like, Ooh, let me see
what else is better out there.
And like, Oh
I'm
John (01:04:27):
Oh
Kent (01:04:27):
for me.
Or I'm not, I'm not casting it like that.
I'm talking about the only timesI've ever quit had been times when
I was in situations that were like,Pretty much destroying me like
John (01:04:36):
shit.
Kent (01:04:37):
and mental health wise, like really
toxic, not sometimes toxic sometimes
just like very, very depressing andreally taking a huge toll on my personal
life and stuff like that, where Ihad to get out to preserve myself and
like to save myself.
I'm I'm not, I'm not talkingabout like, oh, Hey, I'm always
looking out for number one.
And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'mnot talking about going out,
trying to find something better.
Like that's not at all what I'm saying.
(01:04:58):
I'm saying when you're in a situationthat is harming you and it is toxic and
leading to depression like really,really damaging your mental health,
that's when no one ever reallyknows what's going on with you.
And you've, you've, you've, you'vegot to protect yourself at some point.
That's all.
I mean, I'm definitely not advocatingfor like, Hey, look out for number
(01:05:19):
one, go out and get the best money.
Like whatever, like I've quit everybest paying job I've ever had.
the number of times I've quit and takena pay cut because I wanted it because I
had to get out of somewhere was like, Imean, it's still counting on one hand.
I'm not that old, but likeit's definitely happened
John (01:05:33):
Thanks for, thanks for
calling out the difference.
There is a big
Kent (01:05:37):
because I'm definitely not
trying to be like, yeah, be a climber.
It'd be number one.
Like that's the opposite.
It's, it's more that I haven't gottento that part yet where the really
bad situations have, turned toxic.
So yeah, we'll get there
John (01:05:48):
when you left to came
around and it's interesting.
Cause it's, it's, it's like a similartype of game being made at IO storm.
It was, it seemed on, are theylike island storm midway to
came, ran similar game projects.
Kent (01:06:03):
think I in storm, in Moran
where, because was just the sort of
mainstream version of system shock to
John (01:06:09):
Yeah.
Kent (01:06:10):
I mean, you play those
games and there's There's so
many commonalities between them.
same company, same creative director.
Literally shock in the same title systemshock Bioshock and Bioshock was just
basically like the more action orientedshootery version of the immersive SIM,
but it still had nonlinear levels.
You could go back and forthbetween, you know, it was decks
of a spaceship and system shock.
(01:06:31):
It was,
John (01:06:32):
underwater world.
Kent (01:06:33):
different, big levels in
the Android, the neighborhoods or
whatever, and the in rapture, butit still was like, Hey, I'm going
around, I'm scavenging for stuff.
I'm upgrading my weapons.
uh, you know, finding tonics thatchanged my abilities instead of cyber
modules, you know, hearing, audio logs
from dead people, you know, like, yeah.
So, I mean, like it's, they're, youknow, structurally a very similar games.
(01:06:53):
It's just, you know, one was done witha more like, Hey, let's try to make
this something that's not as alienatingfrom the mainstream perspective.
So those are very similar games,I would consider by a shotgun
immersive SIM personally.
John (01:07:04):
Yeah.
I would agree with you on that.
similar type of games you left Austinsunny, Norco, sunny ish, Norco.
Most of the times.
Kent (01:07:14):
I mean the north bay was sunny.
Yeah.
Nevato where to Cameronwas definitely sunny.
John (01:07:19):
And you leave to go to LucasArts.
Was that a big move?
Was it, you know, from a long listof options or was it like, yo, this
person I want to work with them?
on this game or what,what led you to look up.
Kent (01:07:35):
After midway, I went to
two came around where, Jordan
Thomas was the creative director.
I'm on Bioshock two, they'restill building up a team.
you know, they built that studioand that team to make that
game, which was really cool.
Because the only people in that buildingwhere people who are like, I love
Bioshock and I want to work on theSQL and, you know, like Jordan he was
the lead designer, of thief three, hemade, the cradle, which is like one
(01:07:57):
of the most famous levels from T3.
He made Fort frolic, which was,you know, one of the famous
levels from Bioshock one.
And so he was the creativedirector and I knew him from mind.
So I kind of had thatconnection with them.
and there were a bunch of otherreally talented people, working there.
And it was a team of people wholove Bioshock and want it to
work on the sequel and that theywere there for that kind of game.
Like there was no pretense, they weren'ta bunch of journeymen who were just doing
(01:08:17):
whatever they were like, nah, is it.
the Bioshock two team was the firstgreat team I've ever worked with.
I've worked with, two great teams.
And I want to say it about breastline but you gotta make something
before you can put that stampon, you got to ship something.
So I worked, I worked with twoand number three is in progress.
John (01:08:34):
Nice.
Kent (01:08:35):
I mean, phenomenal
team, unbelievably talented.
and BioTrack two was, uh, prettyquick project from the time I
joined, but we had ups and downs.
You know, there were times thatwere difficult or stressful.
We had, we had a delay thatwas kind of unexpected and
tough, but that team was dope.
Working with everybody was great.
It was a great working experience.
I met so many great people,had such a great time.
and then it all crashed after weshipped because we got moved on to
(01:08:57):
the EXCOMM project that was beingled out of, the Australia studio.
And it was just a tough transitionfor the team because we had
been lead studio in this game.
That was a hit.
Great reviews, great sales.
You know, you go back now andthere's the number of articles you
can find that says like Bioshocktwo is the best Bioshock game.
It's like, validating.
John (01:09:16):
me, you play as the big daddy.
Well, yeah,
Kent (01:09:20):
Yeah.
You go back to rapture.
You go back to a really 10 yearslater, out version of rapture.
We call it crasher because itwas so worn out or whatever.
but yeah, so Biostar too was great.
John (01:09:29):
It's funny because as we
were talking about this and I've
been reading about the developmentof Bioshock, up on the PS five.
I have like the collection, it waslike free on PSN or something like,
Kent (01:09:38):
Uh huh.
John (01:09:39):
I'm back to Racha after all these
years and playing through the first
Kent (01:09:43):
Nice.
John (01:09:44):
I'm going to get to
part two for the first time.
So I'm looking forward to it.
Kent (01:09:47):
You never played
the Bioshock
games.
Oh wow.
It's
John (01:09:50):
we're going to have a conversation
once again, after I play some of that,
it's funny, the way things manifest,because I, I saw some headlines that
are like Netflix signs, Bioshockseries or something like that, so,
Kent (01:10:02):
It was a very hard transition
for the team that had just, all working
together and we we'd come out with thisgame that was being so well received and
fun to work on, with, with a great team.
And then all of a sudden we just kind ofget put as a service team onto the ex-com
game, which, had some issues with theconcept and it just wasn't going well.
it was not a fun development to be on.
(01:10:25):
and basically like 2010is that full counter year.
I worked on it as theworst year of my life.
like not professional life, just life.
John (01:10:32):
shit.
Okay.
Kent (01:10:34):
like, work made me so
depressed that it was just like, my
whole life it was just depression.
Like they want to do anything,not motivated, no energy.
it just affected everything in my life.
Like I, you know,
John (01:10:45):
It's crazy
how, what you do at work.
can domino into the restof your life, right?
If it's however much of your day,a third of your day, how it can
just bleed over into the other
Kent (01:10:55):
Yeah, it was.
So I felt like every day and, andI, and I had a lead position and
the people who work for me were likeyelling about how much problems the
game had and how this is never goingto work and all of a sudden the other.
And so I had to take all of that fromthem and try to go argue uphill, you
know, upwards to try to get changes made.
And it was just like this processwhere like, I, I agreed with what they
(01:11:17):
were saying and I, didn't have faithin it and couldn't get anything done.
So I felt like I was failingthe people who, report it to me.
But also I had sort of that, like,responsibility without authority or like,
whatever it is, like, like I'm accountablefor it, but I don't have control over it.
So I'm just, I get the worst of everythingwhere we couldn't get any changes made in.
And ultimately after I, you know,after I left, made leadership changes
(01:11:39):
and change the concept of the gameand basically like rebooted it because
they realized it was, a problematicconcept the way had been developed.
And they changed the time andbasically changed the game
and a bunch more people quit.
Like, you know, I was thefirst, but I was not the last.
So like, it was a terrible situation, butlike, it was so depressing and it was just
affecting my life, like in such a bad way.
John (01:11:57):
What about the way that
the project was being led?
making life so shitty?
ask, because I feel like it's worthknowing for other people who are at the
Kent (01:12:08):
yeah.
John (01:12:09):
right.
To see the signs or learn whatleads to a team's frustration.
Kent (01:12:13):
Even 10 plus years later,
I, don't want it to come off, like
I'm trashing anybody or whatever.
essentially there were elements ofthe core concept, from a design
perspective, I would say that.
everybody knew we're not going to work.
There were, there were sort offundamental flaws and no matter how many
times people raise it argued about orwhatever, we couldn't get it changed.
And so people just felt like they were,
John (01:12:34):
Not being listened to.
Kent (01:12:36):
it's not even just that.
But then you come to work every dayand whatever you're asked to do, you're
like, okay, but this isn't going to work.
So like, why am I doingyour work feels pointless
John (01:12:44):
Yeah,
Kent (01:12:45):
So when you feel something's doomed
and pointless and you have to do it
anyway and you come into work every day,
John (01:12:48):
sure.
But I mean, so, you know,
listening to your team, if theconsensus is, Hey, this doesn't
work, it's not gonna work.
Kent (01:12:55):
yeah.
John (01:12:56):
I think I would chalk it up to, you
know, you're not listening to your team.
That's, that's an easysign of all right, man.
Things are not going to go.
Kent (01:13:03):
Yep.
John (01:13:03):
people gonna quit.
Kent (01:13:04):
yeah.
I've seen other projects, not quite thatbad in terms of that, of that element,
where the team just doesn't believe in it.
And it's, it's deadly, man, as, as youknow, like a team makes a game, it's not
one person that a tour theory is bullshit.
John (01:13:17):
Nope.
Kent (01:13:18):
you know, it's a team and that
team's either moving in the same
direction and believing in it or not,usually it's somewhere in between.
Right.
but when you see that belief meter atjust zero, it's not just not believing
in it or thinking that it's flawed orthinking that it's kind of doomed in that.
cause there was a co-development thing.
So I was kind of like the lead onthe Marine side, but I was reporting
into people at other studios.
And so every day I was gettingthis from my team, this is broken.
(01:13:40):
It's not going to work.
It's flawed.
It's you know, whatever.
And I agreed.
And so I have to on one hand say, Hey,you know, I have to play the manager.
Hey, thanks for raising that.
I'm definitely gonna bring it up again.
You know, like, Uh,
like, so I'm absorbing all this, vitriol.
which I agree with, but asa lead, you can't speak.
Yeah.
This shit's bullshit, you know,like I agree to, this is so stupid.
you can't commiserate that way causeyou got to kind of hold a certain line.
(01:14:03):
And then so then I take that.
I believe them.
I agree with them.
I turn around and try to get thechanges made and, it's just not working.
And so I feel like I'm failingthe people work for me.
I feel like I'm not effectiveat getting these changes made.
And so I'm just, is shitty from all
sides up above, below to the sides.
And so it
just wrecked
me.
John (01:14:21):
wonder if you weren't in a lead
position, would it have been as hard,
but like this goes on for a year.
Kent (01:14:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that, that whole year, so, sothat's when I finally was like, I got to
get out and you know, so I started lookingfor jobs and I was just like, because
it was just joyless, it was a joyless.
I mean, I, I would, I rememberI would drive up to work
John (01:14:40):
How
long
was that commute?
Kent (01:14:41):
30 minutes, like a stopwatch
because it was, it was a reverse commute?
I lived in the city and drove up to Marin.
Most people live inMiranda, work in the city.
So this gridlock one way and I'mjust flying the other way everyday.
Like, I mean like a S like astoplight, there was only like
two stoplights on the whole trip.
John (01:14:54):
Damn.
Kent (01:14:55):
So, I mean, you set the cruise
control, put your music on and it's easy,
but I would, pull into the parking lotand it would take me between five and 10
minutes before I could get out of the car.
Cause I would pull into myspot and turn my car off and
just be like, I'd have to just.
Getting myself psyched to be able toopen the door and like walk across the
parking lot, because I was just like,I can, it was, it was like, literally,
like, I think I can do this one more day.
(01:15:15):
I think I can do this one more day.
You know,
like I can just, just open thedoor, just open the door, man.
it was that bad, likeso I just had to get up.
And so, think at the time I talkedto DoubleFine and Lucas arts,
John (01:15:26):
Okay.
That was your shortly.
Of of people that were like,
in the area you wouldn't have to move to.
Kent (01:15:31):
yeah.
exactly.
There weren't that because I wantto stay in the area at the time.
Cause you know, I love San Francisco atyou know, I wasn't going to commute to.
the south bay and have like atwo and a half hour commute in
traffic every day, each way Iwas like this, I'm not doing it.
And so those were kind of like the two onthe list and, and I talked to DoubleFine
for awhile, but they're in a spot wherelike, well, we gotta get this project
signed before we can open the position.
We can't just hire you.
And then the offer came fromLucas arts, you know, and I was
(01:15:53):
going to work with Clint there.
And so, that offer came through andI was just like, I got to get out.
It was just like, it was kind offrying pain into fire in a way.
I mean, Lucas arts wasn't like thatsort of pressing a toxic thing.
I don't give that impression.
but it was, anywhere here anywhere,but here I just, I have to get out.
I have to be away from here.
Like I don't care what itis like I got to get out.
So that's, that's the firsttime I ever quit a job.
(01:16:14):
And like in my, and that, and that'swhy I was saying earlier is that
like my mental state and my lifewas so repped by that experience.
And it was just, it wasruining my life really.
Like it was so bad.
John (01:16:25):
I wonder how it felt you
gave your resignation and when
you were out of there, right?
Like, holy shit.
I'm out.
Kent (01:16:32):
it was hard to quit because I
wasn't, I didn't give a shit about
quitting on the people who I, youknow, was in conflict with, but I
still had a team and I, and I feltthis terrible sense that I was.
Betraying them or, leaving themto the wolves or letting them down
or quitting on them or whatever.
I mean, like I said, like I toldpeople I was like trying so hard,
(01:16:54):
not to just break down bawling,you know, like it was so hard.
Cause it was, it was the people that Ishit Bioshock to with those people I knew,
John (01:16:59):
okay.
Kent (01:17:00):
I liked working with and
that I used to love working with
and nothing had changed with them
or me or us.
John (01:17:05):
you, worked well together, right?
You knew when the
Kent (01:17:07):
Yeah.
John (01:17:07):
conditions, you can make some magic,
Kent (01:17:09):
Yeah, exactly.
so we'd spent a year just havingthat ripped apart in this situation,
that was, it was just set up badly.
It was really hard telling people.
And like, I remember like on my lastday they didn't use to do this, but they
asked me if I could say something to theteam on my like last team meeting day.
Cause we see the teammates onFridays I mean, I was so choked up.
I could barely get through it becauseI, and I didn't know what to say.
I rambled.
(01:17:30):
Like I didn't, I didn't expect it either.
They didn't tell me Iwas gonna make a speech.
So they can't put me on the spotand I'm sitting here so emotional.
John (01:17:36):
should have given
you time to prepare.
If, if, if
it was kind of a situation whereit's like, Hey, here's my two weeks.
Okay.
Here's your last day.
But maybe we would likeyou to say something
Kent (01:17:44):
Yeah, exactly.
So
John (01:17:46):
like writing that last
email, right.
You're given a bunch of timeto write that last email.
Usually.
Kent (01:17:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Cause like I remember, I remember, huggingmy, my boss, my lead designer there, guy
named Zach McClendon, who was just anamazing mentor to me on Bioshock two.
and he gone into a different project whenI was on Ex-Comm, but he was, my mentor
there on Bioshock two was, it was also.
Informally, still trying to support meand mentor me, you know, while we're on
(01:18:11):
separate projects and stuff like that.
And, you know, he meant a lot to me.
He taught me so many great thingsand he's the person I worked for who
I wish more people knew in terms oflike, when I tell people I work with
Harvey, like, oh, I heard of him,he did dishonored, he did dissects.
And like, yeah.
Yeah.
And then he hired me out of school.
He's my first mentor.
And then like, but, Zach McLendon?
He was the lead lead designer, Bioshocktwo and just like a really smart designer,
great mentor to me in terms of personalstuff, personnel stuff, management
(01:18:35):
stuff, problem solving, like it just
John (01:18:37):
the whole bag.
Kent (01:18:38):
yeah, he was, he
was a big influence on me
John (01:18:39):
Yeah.
I love giving mentors a shout out, right?
Like,
Kent (01:18:43):
yeah, absolutely.
John (01:18:44):
Smith.
I didn't know Zach McLendon, so I still
Kent (01:18:47):
but I remember like, on my
last day, when I was like, that time
and you're like, okay, I'm walkingout of here for the last time.
You know, I gave him.
a big hug and I remember ne neitherone of us could actually speak.
Cause it was, it was so we wereboth like, if I put my mouth, it's
going to be an ugly cry, you know?
So I remember just having thislong hug that was just like, all
we could do was just nod and belike, we were just kind of nodding.
(01:19:08):
Like I know, I know, you know, like
John (01:19:10):
Yeah, no worries.
Necessary.
Kent (01:19:13):
So, but as soon as I was
like, I don't have to go to work
on that project anymore freeas a bird man, free as a bird.
John (01:19:19):
What was your personal life
like not being in there, right.
Kent (01:19:22):
everybody.
Cause I mean, like my, like I didn'tlike, hit bottom in terms of, Developing
substance abuse or like, you know, losingmy relationship or anything like that.
thankfully,
Yeah.
But it was just like, I was depressed.
I was a depressed person for a year.
Just like no joy,
John (01:19:38):
I don't know how you be.
You
Kent (01:19:40):
to do stuff.
John (01:19:41):
suck your creative
muscles as well, right?
Like when you just
have no passion, how do you do your
Kent (01:19:47):
nothing, you feel
like you can apply it to it.
It's just horrible.
Just terrible.
So
John (01:19:51):
people kind of spin up
something on the side, right?
Like, Hey, I'm going to find
joy.
Yeah, sure.
it was drained.
Kent (01:19:58):
frustration.
It was, it was depression.
It was like low energy.
Don't want to get out of bed.
Just want to come homeand get back in bed.
Don't enjoy things.
Even on the weekend, just it, itjust sucked the life out of me, man.
so that's what I was saying kind ofearlier that like people around me
probably didn't know what I was goingthrough and like how rough it was on me.
so that's what I meant when I wassaying earlier that like, you know,
ultimately, you know, you're theone that has to make decisions.
(01:20:20):
If you need to protect yourself it wasn't.
I was looking for like, oh, letme go make more money or whatever.
It was like, this job is eatingme alive and then I can't make it.
And I got to get out and
I had to get out.
It's just like the only way out is out.
Like there there's there'sno, there's no fixing it here.
I don't think it's going to get better.
And It didn't.
They had to make huge changes, you know?
that's all I meant was just thatlike, you know, you're allowed
(01:20:40):
to prioritize your own happiness.
If you're in a situationthat's this bad for you,
John (01:20:43):
that EXCOMM shipped.
Right.
Kent (01:20:45):
I think the final name was like.
The bureau EXCOMM declassified.
John (01:20:49):
shit.
Okay.
Kent (01:20:51):
I still don't understand
it used, the EXCOMM name was a
completely different fiction.
It was set in the fifties
has all different alien types.
John (01:20:57):
Tactical third person shooter.
Kent (01:21:00):
Yeah,
It was not well received.
John (01:21:01):
Okay.
Fair.
But yeah, it was one of those things.
It's like, Hey, fact that they got it out
Kent (01:21:07):
Yeah.
I mean, there was, yeah, there was, theybasically had to sort of make a lot of
changes in the structure and bring ina bunch of new people, hire new people.
They changed the game.
I mean, what shift was very different fromwhat, you know, we were asked to work on,
was ultimately a salvagejob to get it out.
I respect the people who, kind of tookthe mercenary work a bit to, get it done.
(01:21:28):
But, kinda why I said too waslike, I can't punch the clock.
I can't work on stuff.
I
John (01:21:31):
yeah.
You
did call that out in the early,early on in the conversation.
You did call that out.
Let's move on to the greener pastures of
LucasArts you, you got yourreset that you so desperately
needed personally, creatively,mentally, physically, spiritually.
And you have, a colleague in ClintHawking that you're excited to work
(01:21:53):
with or is it the IP or just the factanywhere, but here and Lucas are.
Kent (01:21:59):
there, there was, there was
definitely anywhere, but here, but like,
it was also attractive I think, I wantto say I met him maybe around 2005.
I definitely had met him at GDC.
the sort of mid two thousands,he was doing a bunch of
really interesting GDC talks.
the first one
I
saw was one it, the interesting
thing
about
bishops.
John (01:22:16):
his talks are usually money.
Kent (01:22:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the interesting thing aboutbishops, which was sort Of talk
about self and splinter saw games.
I remember seeing that and be like,holy crap, this guy is so smart and
his thinking is different than dah dah.
And so oddly enough, David Kaleena,who, I don't know if you remember him
John (01:22:32):
Of course.
I remember David clean, man.
Shout out today, man.
He,
Kent (01:22:35):
Yeah.
John (01:22:36):
to one of my favorite authors.
Juno Diaz.
Yeah.
Kent (01:22:39):
Oh, really nice.
Nice.
John (01:22:41):
Was he
like head engineer, studio headat tiger style or something like
that?
Kent (01:22:46):
And Randy, he was on the original
conception team for splinter cell.
was a little five man crew that?
came up with the originalconcept of splinter cell.
And like, what, maybe2099, somewhere in there.
because it shipped in, I wantto say summer was like 2002.
I want to say it came out.
And so Dave, quit there tocome work at iron storm.
And like, you know, late 2001, early2002, somewhere there like kinda,
(01:23:07):
kinda like six or eight monthsbefore splinter cell shipped, he
left and came to work at Einstein.
So I knew him cause you know, he and Ihit it off and we listen to music and go
to shows together and blah, blah, blah.
But he, you know, Clinton was oneof the other people on that team
who had that original conception.
So he knew Clint.
And so I remember we used to allgo to GDC all the time back then.
So I went, I was hanging out with Daveand he was like, Hey, am I go meet up
with some of my buddies from the splintercell team, which was like Neil Alfonzo
John (01:23:31):
I used to think
they was so cool, man.
Cause he walked around that iconic
Kent (01:23:35):
Wow.
John (01:23:36):
you know, the three
neon eyes kinda Goggle thing.
I mean, oh man, thisguy worked on splinter
Kent (01:23:42):
Yeah.
I mean, he was one of the original Yeah.
One of the original conception teamon that, you know, he helped him it.
and so, and so I knew him and soI ended up meeting Clint through
that group just cause they all gottogether and, and, you know, Clint
of course, big fan of the immersiveSims and TSX and stuff like that.
So we had a lot in common, so I just knewhim as, as like, a designer who's whose
GDC talks, it inspired me, who'd worked onsome cool games, especially cast theory.
(01:24:05):
You know, that, that game was
freaking great on Tobinsoundtrack still, still hits.
John (01:24:10):
Slaps.
Kent (01:24:12):
and so, so basically I was
like, oh, well he's down there.
Lucas arts is tryingto do this turnaround.
They signed Clint.
I know Clint as a friend, you know,like, um, I'm like, that sounds good.
Lucas arts was like a fiveminute drive from where I lived.
Cause in the Presidio of SanFrancisco, nice office building.
I mean, freaking window desk,like looking out at the Presidio,
(01:24:33):
walk into fancy restaurants.
for lunch, you know, like it was, it was a
John (01:24:37):
It's a complete 180.
Kent (01:24:38):
basically as idyllic.
And we were there like me and himand Mathias work who is three man
sorta like design brain And we werethere to Like create a new concept.
you know, we're Lucas arts.
So we knew it was gonna be within starwars, but we were like part of this
team just trying to come up with anew, obviously not new IP cause the
star wars, but like a new franchiseor concept within that, you know?
(01:24:59):
Um, and so we're just,
John (01:25:00):
and it didn't have to be
one particular thing in this
Kent (01:25:03):
no, no, no, no, no,
not at all.
We were all over the placetrying to figure out like
John (01:25:08):
it's the gift from
the curse of carte blanche.
Right.
To be
Kent (01:25:11):
yeah, exactly.
John (01:25:12):
us a cool game.
Right.
He's like, but fuck.
Kent (01:25:15):
Yeah, exactly.
But can you give me a little again?
It's it's a,
John (01:25:19):
said, right?
Like, want some direction?
Kent (01:25:22):
yeah.
John (01:25:22):
direction, let us know what you
thinking about.
Kent (01:25:25):
Yeah.
like the metaphor I like to usefor like direction and stuff.
One example of direction is just, youknow, like, you know, when you go to a
bowling alley and if you've got kids,they can Raise the bumpers in the lane
so that you can't throw a gutter ball.
So I think of it like that, it's like,I I'm going to raise the bumpers.
So I know the ball's going to getto the end somehow know, of course
it's going to take, I don't knowhow many pins is going to hit.
John (01:25:45):
Yeah.
Kent (01:25:46):
you from throwing a gutter ball.
So I probably, I can keep you fromthrowing a gutter ball, whatever happens
in between there that's up to you.
So I guess
that's a metaphor that I like.
Yeah.
So,
John (01:25:55):
is let us, fail miserably
and get shut down or get canceled.
Right?
Like
give us some direction of what you want.
Kent (01:26:01):
yeah.
exactly.
so basically, yeah, wejust did that for awhile.
And there were two otherprojects in the building.
There was that 13, 13 projectthat, you know, has kind of like
at this point, leaked enoughthat everybody knows about it.
And then there was another team workingon, multiplayer, first person shooter.
I don't know if it's officially goingto be a Battlefront game or not,
but it was, you know, a Battlefrontstyle, competitive first-person
(01:26:23):
shooter team-based type thing.
That's what we're tan was on for awhile
John (01:26:26):
Did you guys overlap
when, when he was over there
Kent (01:26:29):
Yeah.
We were there at the same time.
We were never on the same, yeah.
different teams?
so down the road, so we were doingconception and we were like, okay, we're
going to build a team and the other.
And we started trying to findpeople to hire for the team.
And a couple of times we found somebodyand the studio was like, well, these
other two games are shipping before y'all.
So we need to have that higher go tothose teams, but y'all y'all can just
(01:26:51):
wait and keep working that concept.
And I kind of realized after a whilethat like our game, best case scenario
was not to be out for like five years.
Like I was like, The seniorpriorities, these two other games.
And we can't even really get our hiressometimes, which, you know, I get it.
Studios got to allocate peopleto where they think, you know,
(01:27:11):
whatever.
Like, so I'm not like thisisn't sour grapes or anything.
It was just kind of slowly dawned to that.
That was the reality.
John (01:27:16):
quick question for you about that?
I've seen studios grow from one totwo projects and that be Herculean
effort, you know, it's important forthe lifeblood of the studio, right?
To have something that your teamcould look forward to, to roll
on to, and then, you know, rinseand repeat, roll that wheel.
I've never seen the three projects.
(01:27:38):
Studio formula really exist succeed,
Kent (01:27:42):
I don't know that I have
either when, when I think about it,
I've been, at two projectplaces I can't think of a three.
John (01:27:48):
I hope someone
listening could prove proof.
Give me the, the exceptionor the formula of something.
But I'm curious, I'm curious if it,if it has been done outside of like
the huge publishing houses on like,you know, CQL or iteration four or
Kent (01:28:02):
Yeah.
John (01:28:03):
right.
Kent (01:28:04):
Which even then, though,
it's kind of like, you, you, you,you go from two project studio to
like being part of a huge thing.
That's got seven projectsworldwide or something like that.
Like
John (01:28:14):
Yeah,
Kent (01:28:15):
that reminds me of something
that, that Matt booty described
to me this one time about like
John (01:28:19):
booty.
Isn't he like president of X-Box studios
now some,
Kent (01:28:23):
the president of midway
for a little while at the
John (01:28:24):
eh, yeah.
I used to love gettingthose booty calls, man.
Like, Hey, dial into the booty call.
Kent (01:28:30):
yeah.
John (01:28:31):
Tell us how the company is going.
Kent (01:28:32):
Zucker was out.
That was his name.
Right?
Zachary David, Zucker.
after he was out.
Yeah.
Yeah,
he was, he was, he was kind oflike the turnaround artists, CEO,
who wasn't actually from games togot pulled in, but I'd aggress.
but he described to me one time, hesaid, you know, you're talking about sort
of studio budgets and project budgets,and you were saying, you know, like, a
project budget can get up to your studio.
Budget can get up to like a certainpoint, like call it like $50 million
(01:28:54):
said, it's kind of like electron orbits.
like, when you look at, uh, you know,that first ring of electronics has to, and
I'm going to get the science wrong, butlike th then the next one, the next one's
got like four, six or whatever it is.
he's like, but it's not like itgoes from two to three to four
to five to six, it's at two.
And you can build up all thisenergy, but it's still two.
And then it takes this huge amountof energy to jump and finally get one
(01:29:17):
onto the next ring and start to go.
And he kind of described it, like,you can have a $50 million game,
but you don't really have the 60.
And then the 70, then the 80 he'slike, you kind of go from 50.
You've kind of got to just beable to jump to one 50, you know?
And he's like, there's
John (01:29:31):
yeah,
Kent (01:29:32):
it's not incremental.
It's very stair-stepping.
And
John (01:29:35):
sure.
sure.
Kent (01:29:36):
it with studios, like you can't go
from two to three, three to four, four
to five, it's kind of, you got to go to,
John (01:29:41):
Yeah,
Kent (01:29:41):
got to either make this
huge leap into something else,
or maybe get bought into a bigger
John (01:29:45):
yeah.
Yeah.
Kent (01:29:46):
can't just incrementally
John (01:29:48):
That's awesome.
They're not, it's a great visual.
I've said it raft.
I've thrown out the quadruplea development project, right?
AKA some Assassin's creedor some GTA or something
like that.
Cause, cause it's a whole extra madnessof production when it becomes this multi
studio effort, 24 7 development across the
(01:30:08):
time zones and so many differentmoving pieces and too big to fail.
Right?
Like we're going to get
Kent (01:30:14):
Yep.
John (01:30:14):
the door, do a die,
cancel what we got to cancel.
jumped Onto the team.
That's already on this thingand it's moving too fast.
I've never been part of atransition as it evolved into that.
Kent (01:30:24):
Yeah.
In how we got on that.
John (01:30:27):
we were talking about you guys
with the third project and you were
Kent (01:30:30):
Oh yeah, yeah,
John (01:30:31):
two projects were kind of
consuming all the resources and
you had at least a five year
Kent (01:30:36):
yeah,
John (01:30:37):
maybe getting out.
Kent (01:30:38):
yeah.
I kinda realized like best casescenario, it's going to take five
years for a scheme comes out.
Like if everything breaks, right.
That's just, the times can take to gofrom three dudes, spit balling at a
whiteboard to a thing on a shelf, right?
Like it takes so much team building time,prototyping, iteration, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, that's five years.
John (01:30:54):
seems like a fun job where you
can just kind of whiteboard game ideas
with a small team for however long.
Curious, how long wouldyou be able to kind of keep
Kent (01:31:03):
I can tell you, eight
months was my maximum.
John (01:31:05):
That's a long run man.
Kent (01:31:07):
Yeah.
Oh no, I didn't evenlast that long though.
Cause we finished, Bioshock two in late2009 and then they actually just held
it until early 2010, because we don'twant to release it into this window.
We finished it too late.
So it's set.
We were done.
It sat in the warehouse forlike three months and came
out in like February of 2010.
And so by the time it cameout, we were already long since
working on the EXCOM game.
(01:31:29):
And so 2010, I spent thatwhole year after finishing.
Accomplishing nothing creativelybeing depressed, being in
the pits, the whole deal.
So then, you know, I got to Lucas artsin sort of March of 2011 at this point
has been over a year since I've beenlike, had my teeth into something I'm
creatively engaged in and driven by.
And so at first of course,concept is a new game.
(01:31:50):
Sky's the limit scar.
War's like, oh shit, oh my God,I'm a kid in the candy store.
But when, but when I startedrealizing that, you know, we
weren't getting the resources,this would be a really long road.
We're so early in conception.
And here we come in for days.
And like, you can't, you can only doso many days in a row where you're just
spit balling ideas and say like, whenit's three brainy ass designers doing
(01:32:12):
this, it's not about like, oh Yeah.
what's the, what's the reload mechanicgonna be it, this is some galaxy
brain shit every day about likere-inventing storytelling and games
and making distributed storytellingwhere everything goes into a server.
And the stories changed every day byactions from people in other games.
I mean, just the wildest, you know?
So, so it's just likethis galaxy brain stuff,
John (01:32:35):
would you have benefited from
having engineering people or art
art
Kent (01:32:40):
anything.
John (01:32:41):
You kind of wrangle you.
Kent (01:32:43):
yeah, at that point you're,
you could start making stuff
and start putting on screen.
Like, I'm, I'm going to make it withyour hands, put it on the screen
and iterate like, like enough talk,You know, like I'm that kind of guy.
So even within like probably three or fourmonths of being there, you know, I can
only do that white boarding stuff so long.
And I got just so unfulfilled.
I literally went to the other teamand it's funny because I've said a
bunch of times, I'm not a good leveldesigner and that's still true,
(01:33:06):
but I went over to that, for theBattlefront team, I was like, Hey,
do you want any help with anything?
Cause I gotta do something.
I gotta work on something.
I don't know what it is.
And they're like, you could, youknow, make us, another map for us to
play tests, you know, like a, a deathmatch map, like a team death match.
And I was like, I'm on it for server.
And I would sit there and like, you.
know, we'd spit ball for half a day.
And then the other a day I putmy headphones on and build a
(01:33:26):
level for that Battlefront game.
I wasn't good at it.
It wasn't a very good level,but I was making something and
I had to make something, man.
I mean, that game got canceled.
I'd never shipped,
after doing that and being like, I'mkeeping myself busy just to keep my sanity
because our projects notreally going anywhere fast.
And I just, you know, at that pointI was coming up on a year and a half
(01:33:46):
since I'd been working on Bioshock two.
And I was just like, I can'thave the seven and a half
year gap, best case scenario.
Cause I was like, well, if I get twoyears into this and it gets canceled,
then it's just all just, you know, it'sone thing if I was like super engaged
and believing in it, but you know,it was, it was just, you know, kind
of like pie in the sky for so long.
So I started being like, where can I go?
I just want to work onsomething that I care about.
I just want to like be engaged.
(01:34:07):
I want to make something I lookedaround and there just weren't any
companies I was interested in.
And at the time my wifehad, been kind of unhappy
at her job.
So we've been saving up money yeah.
In San Francisco.
Yeah.
And the, In San Francisco,cause we didn't want to move.
We liked the area.
and she had been kind ofunhappy at her job for a while.
So we had started putting awaysavings because she was gonna
(01:34:30):
quit and do some consulting.
And so we're like, let's build a nest egg.
So we were saving, we werewatching our money, we called it.
like our sturdy plan.
We like stopped eating out.
We, you know, like we, you know,cut back our budget, somebody
that started saving money.
And so he had this nest egg and then overtime I started getting more and more sort
of like unfulfilled and in terms of my jobof just like not thinking it was going to
(01:34:50):
ultimately have a chance of success andseeing the other teams get the resources.
So like that.
And for whatever reason, shestarted really liking her job again.
And so we got to a point where Iwas like, well, there's no studios.
I want to work for out there.
I'm just frankly, getting pretty bored.
I just want to makesomething and be engaged.
You're happy we got this nest egg.
(01:35:10):
I was like, what if I use it instead?
I was like, what if I quit and go Indy?
so that's how I ended up going Indiaand starting working on the novelist
because there was just no other option.
Like I, like, I never had adream to be an indie designer.
Has never like a goal.
I never wanted to like gooff and make my own thing.
I just wanted to work on somethingthat I cared about and that I
believed in, and that was fulfilling.
(01:35:31):
And it, at that point it had been like,uh, almost two years at that point.
And I was like, I'm losing my mind.
I have to,
I have to work on
something.
John (01:35:39):
Shout out to Christine
Kent (01:35:42):
Yup.
John (01:35:42):
her man
Kent (01:35:44):
Yup.
That absolutely.
I mean, that's why, I mean,Her name is atomic credits.
She gets all the respect, all the credit.
I didn't know what Iwas going to work on it.
I was like, I quit and I'll figure it out.
I was like, you know, what'llget me to figure it out.
Watching that bank account
go down every day.
John (01:35:56):
you gotta, you got a clock, right?
You gotta run a
Kent (01:35:58):
Yeah.
John (01:35:59):
And I guess you, you, you,
kind of know your burn rate,
Kent (01:36:03):
Yeah.
that's the liberating constraint
is watching that dollar amount go down.
John (01:36:08):
I had heard about the novelist.
I kid you not, I had heard aboutthe novelist in game talks,
books, interviews, what have you,right in the success stories.
And I fucking kick myself thatI, for some reason, somehow,
I didn't know it was yours.
I didn't know your name was tied to it.
No fucking clue.
Kent (01:36:27):
Which is actually,
that's kind of dope actually.
Like, cause you know, I don'twant to be egotistical like that.
Be like, oh, it's Kent,Hudson's the novels.
He's like, no, I just put it?
out there.
It's like, it ain't myface on the website.
You know, I just want peopleto play it and enjoy it.
Like
that's gonna,
John (01:36:41):
Sid Meyer's always somebody I credit
has kind of like one of the people I
look up to in this space and you know,fool's name sold those games, right?
Like Sid
Kent (01:36:49):
yeah.
John (01:36:49):
whatever people who have people
come and look for it, if your name
was attached to this thing, youknow, it definitely would have meant
something different for me personally.
But like, yo,
Kent (01:36:57):
Right.
John (01:36:58):
gotta hit him up.
See what's up.
I came across it justby happenstance reading.
One of these novels, talking about gamingindustry, game teams, know, doing things.
And it came up, it was like Kent,Hudson's the novelist like, you know,
and then that's when I kind of goknocking down doors and bothering people.
I know after I do the Googleinvestigation, like yo,
(01:37:20):
where the hell is Kent.
Now come to find out you'rea fucking brass line.
I'm like, yo, what crazy small world.
I hit up everybody.
I know a brass line.
I was like, yo, can I get me thisguy's email or pass him a message.
I got to catch up with him.
Uh, and, and that's how we ended up here.
Second thing.
Ben written came on the showand he dropped his name.
(01:37:42):
He was like, yo, who doyou want me to interview?
And he was like, yo, bringKen Hudson on the show.
I'm like, perfect
man, serendipitous, all things aligning.
I need to talk to the dude.
Ben nominates you.
Kent (01:37:54):
Now the full sailor.
John (01:37:55):
we roll thick as thieves.
We're like cockroaches in this industry.
Uh, w w all out there andlatched on, but I don't know.
it's hard to pin down anybody and belike, oh, I can see you branching off
and being an indie developer or buildingyour own game or something like that.
I think, everybody's got it in them.
You know, push comes to shove.
If, if, if they got a nice nest eggto try to go spin out and do the
(01:38:21):
damn thing, I think anybody who's gotexperienced doing it can definitely do it.
If you can take somebody off thestreet, who's never done it and
see those types of success stories.
But I love this story, man.
You know, like all these games on thebelt and constraints that you were
thrown in, where it's like, yeah, I'mnot trying to move nobody else around
me is doing anything worthwhile.
(01:38:42):
Interesting.
Fuck it.
I'm gonna go do it, my damn self.
And tell me about thenovelist and what came
Kent (01:38:48):
yeah,
John (01:38:49):
and he decisions made and,
and times you remember fondly,
what did even build it on?
Kent (01:38:56):
unity.
that's the quickest answer you'll get,
John (01:38:58):
Yeah.
Kent (01:38:59):
yeah.
That's I mean, it's a, it's a, um,like I said, like w when I, when
I quit, I didn't have any idea.
I had no concepts.
I mean, like every designerI've got a notebook has got
50 half-ass ideas, you know?
Oh, what about this?
What about that?
But like, the Novelisdidn't exist in my head.
but I had done a GDC talk in 2011, likewhile I was at Lucas arts about this
(01:39:19):
idea of like player driven stories.
Cause I'm really not into linear games,like really sort of cut scene heavy,
you know, frustrated writer watch mycut scenes and the, and the, and the
game play is secondary type of games.
it's not that that can't Be done well.
you know, there's certainly games thathave very strong narratives and very
strong stories and stuff like that,but, games or interactive, games can
(01:39:41):
do stuff that no other medium can do.
So I don't understand why we're going towaste our time copying other stuff, like
do the stuff that only we can do, which isthe social aspect, the interactive aspect,
letting the player be part of the storyor input into the systems, et cetera.
and so I'd done this talk about, howcould you make player driven stories?
And it was a very sort of like,it was an inspirational track.
(01:40:02):
It wasn't practical.
It was like a theoretical, likeit used self-determination theory.
as a framework for like,how can we do this?
And it was a very like pie inthe sky, hoity, toity, like,
academic eats sort of, GDC talk
that I just did.
Cause I was like, it's interesting.
And I want to inspire people to,think about this differently.
but you know, it, it wasdone just for that reason.
Cause I was just frustrated.
I was like, I'm sick ofthese type of games, man.
(01:40:23):
Like, can we do something different?
And so when I start, when I went into,I prototyped a bunch of different stuff,
like little puzzle games and like stufflike that, just mostly learning unity.
Cause I'd never used it before.
So part of it was just kind of learninghow do I do this, how to do that.
John (01:40:34):
Be like it compared to
all the other tools you used.
Kent (01:40:37):
I loved it.
I still love it for what is good atlike, it struggles to scale, right?
John (01:40:42):
Sure,
Kent (01:40:42):
at scale and it struggles,
John (01:40:44):
sure.
always say that.
Yeah.
if it's a teams that you can count onone hand, guys can work in unity pretty
Kent (01:40:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean
John (01:40:52):
soon as
it.
gets bigger than that.
Kent (01:40:53):
yeah, exactly.
I mean I made two games init in five years and love it.
so I was just learningand stuff like that.
And then I started like, Icouldn't figure out any concepts.
or any that really grabbed me, you know,like I had a lot of ideas, and finally
I Can I challenge myself, basically.
I was like, man, you just did this GDC.
Talk about like trying to be experimentaland trying to push things forward
narratively and stuff like that.
(01:41:14):
and here you are with the onechance in your life, you get to
make whatever the hell you wantwith no, by telling what you do.
There's no publisher, there's no funding.
You do whatever you want.
And it's like, you're an idiot.
If you don't try to, cash that check thatyou wrote it was basically like put your
money where your mouth is like, literally.
the first thing I did was like,and this is kind of also the
post-mortem talk about in 2014.
So some of this is in that as well, butlike, the first version I did was like
(01:41:37):
a narrative simulation where you hadsix characters in this house and you
could make them meet, or you could shareinformation between them and all of this.
It was just dirty.
And there was no drama to it.
There was no story to it.
There was no relationships to it.
It was just like asimulation of relationships.
And it was just, it worked.
I worked on it for three monthsand at the end I was like, I
was like, this is pointless.
(01:41:57):
I was like, I'm justsmelling my own farts here.
Like I'm, I'm using myself, I'mmaking this simulation, but it
doesn't mean anything to anybody.
It's like, simulations are easy.
It's easy to just do math and move thingsaround and simulate force it like easy.
I was like, this doesn'tfreaking mean anything.
And so I threw it away, and started overand I said, I need to find a scenario
that just everything comes built in.
I don't have to explain anything andI can get to what I want to do, which
(01:42:21):
is letting the player have stories.
That actually means something to them.
how can I strip this down?
As far as I can from these likesix strangers in this big house
and so I was like, well, Theconcept of a family is universal.
John (01:42:31):
Hmm.
\ Kent (01:42:32):
everyone knows what a family is.
Even if your family looks differentor isn't, two parents in the
kid or whatever, like everyoneknows what it's like to be a kid.
Cause you were one right.
As universal as a guest,just a family unit.
okay, how many peopleshould be in the family?
It's like, how small can I make it?
You know, people have donerelationship games, but that's,
it it's just a two-way street.
There's no you're choosing one or theother's binary as a key, add a third.
And now you've got thattriangle sort of the
(01:42:53):
smallest.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I was like, okay, let memake a rock paper scissors.
but it's families, relationships,different types of relationships.
And so I kept just grinding it that, whenI came back to the narrative part of it,
I was like, okay, it's easy to make asimulation, but how do I make a story?
And so I basically had to say, okay,all I need is a starting scenario.
(01:43:15):
And then a framework for you to makedecisions and push the story forward.
So the starting scenario, you know,it was like, okay, marriage is on the
rocks dudes, career's on the rocks.
The kid's having trouble in school.
So you kind of show up withconflict built in and you get
that in the first like chapter ofthe game, you learn all of that.
my goal was, I'm goingto put you the player.
You're the author of this.
I'm not gonna make a branching narrative.
(01:43:35):
Cause it's like branchingnarrative and done before.
And like they're only degreesdifferent from linear media.
I was like, you're still at everypoint saying the author is going to
give you this choice or this choice.
And this goes here, this goes here.
This goes here, this goes here It hasmultiple paths, but it's still scripted.
So I was like, I want to makea small narrative engine.
What I did was I simulatedthe relationships between
the people very, very simply.
(01:43:56):
And actually they make someonehappy or sad or neutral.
And then I was like, how can I forcemyself to not get in the way and
not have authorship in this story?
So one of the first decisions Imade was I'm going to make nine
chapters to this story, and they'regoing to come in random order.
Sorry, the intro andthe, exit are both set.
So the middle seven in the order.
John (01:44:16):
Yup.
Kent (01:44:17):
I was like, okay, I
couldn't tell a story if I tried.
Cause I don't know if this isgoing to happen before this, or
if this is going to happen forthis, it's different for everybody.
So it was like, I tied one hand behindmy back personally and making it to make
sure that I can not imprint on the game.
then, you know, I, I waslike, how do I do this?
What's the structure of a chapter?
How do I, you know, make decisions thatyou make a one chapter carry forward so
(01:44:38):
that it still comes because I was like,you can make nine individual chapters,
but they have to blend into a story.
So I was like, okay, what tricks do Ihave without knowing what order this is
going to happen to make this into a story?
That means something to someone.
So when they go back and say,first, this happened, but then this
happened, I felt bad about that.
So then I did this and the next chapter,make it a linear thing in their head,
even though I don't even know that order.
So the game's just full, a lotof little tricks, to do that.
(01:45:02):
each chapter, when you make a decision,it kind of centers on a certain object.
So like in one chapter, youknow, maybe the kid wants you
to go fly his kite with him.
And the wife wants you to help her withlike, some flyers for her art show.
And the dad's got a, turn into achapter for his book or whatever.
So like, if you choose the kid, thenin subsequent chapters, his kite is
on the wall above his bed becausehe has that memory of a happy day.
(01:45:24):
And so every time you go in his roomnow, you're like, oh, I remember
the time I took him to fly the kite.
If you don't choose the.
it's like tossed under the bedin the far side of the room.
And you can see it hanging out fromunder the bed for the rest of the game.
And you're like, damn, every time you goin his room, you like, and you remember
that you didn't take him out to fly as K.
And so I use the objects that youchoose to tell a little bit of
that story, even though it comes indifferent order, I can leave that
(01:45:45):
history through the house, for example.
So I did a ton of stuff like that.
And the point was just I want to askyou the same question nine times and
whatever pops out at the end of thisthing, you found out what your values are.
So it was basically, you know, careerversus marriage versus parenthood.
And I ask you a conundrum ineach chapter that is unsolvable.
You cannot please all three characters.
You have to let someone down.
(01:46:06):
And as you play, well, you can makesomeone kind of say, even, you know, and,
and not be too disappointed, but everytime you've got to make a hard decision.
And I was like, at the end of ninechapters, you're going to know
if you prioritize the marriageover the career, you've now
learned something about yourself.
And I didn't tell you that I didn'teven give you branching choices.
I just asked you a question these times.
And so it was basically just a projectwhere I was like trying to really make
(01:46:29):
it about the player and not me, you know?
And I took, I tried to take as muchoff the ship away from myself as
I could to just make it about meputting these questions forward.
And like, every player has adifferent answer and every player has
like a different story through it,
John (01:46:43):
it's powerful, man.
I heard nothing but great thingsand very emotional rights.
games have this power to reallymake you feel something, right?
Cause you.
Choice and you can affect,
how the story unravels inwhat'd you take away from it.
Right.
I'm glad you made those decisions whereit's not just kind of something forced
fed to you that you stepped through.
And you're like, oh, those characters,either felt them or I didn't, it's
(01:47:04):
like, no, you are the character you'redriving these relationships forward.
how do you feel after the fact,what you released, how was received,
the money generated off of it,
Kent (01:47:15):
my feeling about
it has evolved over time.
Cause like it was a very polarizinggame when it came out, which
was really, really difficult,really, really hard to deal with.
like, I'll never forget theday that it came out and all
the reviews hit in my head.
I had it built up because I spent,you know, 22 months of my life on that
John (01:47:31):
yeah.
Kent (01:47:32):
And it's everything to you.
I mean, when you're working on agame by yourself like that, it's
what you think about night and day.
I mean, I had days where all I could dowas just lay on the floor face down and
like, I was like, I can't figure this.
out.
I'll paint myself into a corner.
I didn't know how I was going to getout of, but you got to keep going.
You can't quit.
Like you can't be like 18months into like, Yeah.
I'm just going to toss allthat money that we spent.
And like, I'm not going to ship this.
Like you have to go like there's no.
(01:47:53):
So like it's super hard and superdifficult, super challenging, but you
put everything you have into it, youknow, it's, it's what you, it's what
you live for for that period of time.
And like, there was times where I wasso stressed and blocked and like stuck
where I didn't think I could move past it.
The only way that I would get through itand be able to get to sleep at night was
I would tell myself when I'm laying inbed trying to go to sleep only to myself.
(01:48:14):
I wouldn't say to my wife obviously, but Iwould, I would tell myself, I was like, I
would tell myself, I was like, it's okay.
You can quit tomorrow.
When you wake up tomorrow, youcan quit and you can just go do
something else and go get a job.
And I, and I let myself.
At one in the morning.
then when I wake up the next morning,but man, I'm not quitting, you know,
John (01:48:32):
Fuck.
Yeah, I finished this.
Kent (01:48:34):
the hook to get to sleep.
John (01:48:35):
Yeah.
Kent (01:48:36):
the morning I feel better.
So like I had, you know, I had to havethose moments, but you know, when it
came out, it was everything to me,you know, like, I remember the first
review that hit was GameSpot and itwas a 7.5 and I felt like it was a two.
it devastated me
John (01:48:51):
what would have made you happy?
What was the number you wanted to see?
Kent (01:48:55):
it sounds wild, but like,
I mean, I wanted, only nines and
John (01:48:58):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Kent (01:48:59):
you just build it up for so long.
John (01:49:01):
Yeah.
Kent (01:49:01):
Yeah.
You build it up for so long.
So like that's 7.5.
And like, I didn't have theperspective to see that, like, I made
a game in my apartment by myself.
I mean, I had collaborators forvoice acting and my friend's
studio did, the 3d art assets.
So like, I'm not saying by myself, 95.2,2% by myself, I actually know that number,
because of
the way share.
Okay.
the thing people don't realize is like,when you work in a studio or you work
(01:49:22):
on a, big game, there's a million peoplethat work on these things, majority
of us out of your control, otherpeople can make mistakes, that mess
things up, or that make things better.
but like when a game comes out,you know what your part was in it.
But like, if it's not receivedwell or whatever, so easy back.
Yeah.
Well, if that.
person had made that decisionwould have been a lot better, you
can let yourself off the hook so
easy
John (01:49:42):
we do,
Kent (01:49:42):
when it's just, you
you're anything good about.
Thank you
anything bad about it?
Oops.
it's all on you.
So your accountability istotal, which is pretty great.
especially after sort of theprojects that I come off of that were
unsatisfying for different reasons.
I kind of embraced that.
Like I remember working on it beinglike, you know, what, even the
mistakes are my own and that's fine.
If I mess up, it was me themessed up, like, that's cool.
(01:50:04):
Like I'm fine with that.
I just want to make myown mistakes, you know?
John (01:50:07):
It's kind of liberating, right?
It's gotta be kind
Kent (01:50:09):
absolutely,
John (01:50:10):
to be like, I got no one to
blame, but me and, and live with those
live with the consequences of your
Kent (01:50:16):
absolutely, absolutely.
So like there's a lot of freedom and, inthat, but it's also extremely vulnerable,
you know, like you're, you're puttingthis out for the world and like, as
you know, the steam forums and likethe general internet is a toxic place.
it's one thing to work on a game thatgets a backlash or has people who
are disappointed or whatever, whenit's just like, your baby is all go
straight to your heart, like a dagger.
(01:50:38):
So, you know, it was asuper polarizing game.
Like, I got perfect scores.
I got nines.
I did get nines mostly from Andysites, like nine nines, perfect
scores, one, a couple of game ofthe year things on smaller sites
and
also got like threes out of 10 frompeople being like this isn't even a video
game, this artsy stuff doesn't belongand like drag my Metacritic way down.
(01:50:59):
so I got all these people who werelike trolling on like, you know,
game, this isn't even a game, thisartsy bullshit who just hated on
principle, you know, and gave you likea three out of 10 or four out of 10.
So like that stuff is just like, andthey don't realize like, that's like my
livelihood, like I gotta sell this thing.
Right.
Like, so,
John (01:51:15):
in today.
Development scene, We're not all games arecreated equal budgets, a different, right.
I wish that we had categories to correctlythese games like, Hey, These games are
built with this development budget or bythis many people compared to these games.
Right.
Cause it's kind of not fair toput all these games mashed up
against each other and evenly.
(01:51:36):
it's very different.
I would when I look at games like this andgo, oh, this indie studio made this game,
I'm going to treat it as such and be like,yo, this was a solid experience of effort.
Right.
If, if you put, if you give it in thehands of hundred person plus team with
this many dollars thrown at it, yeah.
I would totally be way morecritical of it, you know,
Kent (01:51:54):
Yeah.
John (01:51:55):
think players out
there don't give a fuck.
Right.
It's just like I paid for this gameand failed to meet my expectations.
Right.
Like God
goddamn.
Kent (01:52:03):
which on some of what is fair, like
you're asking for their money, ultimately,
like, if someone's got a bunch of choicesfor, they can spend 9 99 on and there's
some game that was 9 99, it was amazing.
And, you know, changetheir life, whatever.
And another one doesn't, they'relike, you know, that is a comparison.
But yeah, like, I had a folder of likereally nice emails that people sent me.
And like, you know, I got emails, multipleemails from people who were like, I
was in the middle of going through aseparation or like a divorce in my life
(01:52:27):
and playing this game helped me reconcilewith my wife and we're back together now,
you know, like I was like that.
John (01:52:35):
that's
got to make it worth it.
Kent (01:52:36):
so you get that one and you
don't care quite as much about.
You know, whatever Eastern Europeansites slagged on your game and
said, that said that art games don'tmatter and aren't games at all.
Did he go.
play it before shitting on it?
Like, You know, that, that makesup for one review like that.
Um,
John (01:52:51):
You go.
Kent (01:52:52):
but, but Yeah,
so, so getting those things from peopleand like talking to people who like,
you know, like the number of views thatpeople like couldn't finish it because
they were crying so hard and like
John (01:53:02):
Yeah,
Kent (01:53:03):
it hit him in a certain way.
So like that I, that I'm proud of.
And the more, the more distance I getfrom it, the more it's like, you know,
like I said, even more time, my studiois getting shut down or like losing
years of your career in that way.
Like, you know, those that's 22 monthsthat I poured everything I had into it
and it wasn't perfect, but it's unique.
There ain't nothing
John (01:53:20):
totally.
That's what I'm talking about isnothing else like it, I can count on
two hands, the number of games that kindof evoke such, such a visceral response
out of me, you know what I'm saying?
And those games is special andstand out from the crowd, you know?
So
Kent (01:53:37):
yeah,
John (01:53:38):
all the props in the world,
can't for putting that bad boy
out and, and, and surviving.
And on the other end, I know there's a
Kent (01:53:44):
yup.
And
John (01:53:45):
just drill deep on the novelist.
Yo, you're talking to Kent.
Kent (01:53:49):
enough to pay for the next one.
So that's all good.
You know, that, that was the goal.
Yeah.
John (01:53:55):
I mean, it's a success that
you finished in a shipped it and
a success that it paid for itself,recoup costs and paid for the next
game.
Kent (01:54:03):
yep.
That's right.
That's right.
John (01:54:05):
it, it still brings in some money.
Kent (01:54:07):
So get that check every month
John (01:54:08):
Yeah.
Which you got to divvy up.
Kent (01:54:10):
I got to divvy up.
That's right.
Yeah.
I got to divvy up.
I get 95.2, 2% of each check.
John (01:54:15):
Talk to me.
I have a note here.
I have a note here that I got toask because I don't have a lot
of people that can talk to be ina contract or a contract worker.
And a lot of people don't even know howto write up their terms or, you know,
the kind of just take the first thingthat's kind of put in front of them.
And I know you have a lotof experience here and.
(01:54:37):
Uh, having had multiple contractsthrown at you when you turn them
down or even to finish novelists.
I think you took a few contracts.
Kent (01:54:46):
When I started, I, I was just living
off savings and just slowly burning down
that nest egg that we saved up to go Indy.
And so I certainly didn't have money tolike pay, like I wasn't paying myself,
so I couldn't pay someone else either.
It was very much like I got this muchtime and that bank accounts checking down.
So the way I did it was,shout out to tiger style.
I asked them cause they had similarcircumstances when they made, spider.
(01:55:07):
They weren't paying peopleeither in terms of like a salary.
And so what they did was they had justa profit sharing agreement with people.
So everyone who worked on it,worked on the same conditions.
And so I sort of started fromwhere they were and, and I don't
think modified it that much.
And essentially just wroteup a contract myself.
Like I didn't have a lawyer or nothing.
I just wrote up something thatcovered as many cases as I could.
and I wrote up a thing that just said,look, everybody who works on the game,
(01:55:30):
no matter how big or small your partis or what your job is on the game.
keep track of how many hoursyou work on at each day.
I created like shared Googlespreadsheet that just had like a
column for each person and the dates.
And it just said every day, honor system,just log in and be like, yep, worked eight
hours a day, work, six hours a day, workfive and a half hours a day, whatever it
was and everybody just logged their hours.
(01:55:51):
And so when the game shipped, I justfroze the spreadsheet and said, We're
just going to divide it up by hours.
that's how I know thatI'd worked 95.2, 2%.
Could I see that number everymonth when I have to do checks?
I did the majority of it, so every, everymonth when we get the check, basically
the contractor said I'm gonna recoupbusiness costs first logged all those.
So like website hostingthis much a month, you know?
(01:56:11):
before it came out, I'd built up.
Some amount of, business expenses thatwere straight out of pocket for me.
So I was like, I'm recouping that
first and then we'll start sharing.
So I, so I got a hundred percentof the money until those profits
were recouped, which I want to saytook three days of the game being
out.
So that was cool.
John (01:56:26):
fuck it.
Kent (01:56:28):
so yeah, that's how I did it.
I did, it was just equalsharing with everybody.
John (01:56:31):
That's like the most
egalitarian version I've ever heard.
Right?
Kent (01:56:35):
I learned some lessons on that,
that I fixed for my second game, first
mistake in the contract, which I honored.
It said, this sheet freezesthe day it comes out.
I supported that game for likefour more months, like actively
John (01:56:47):
Oh shit.
Kent (01:56:48):
day, seeing bugs, doing new
options, like dah, like blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, not gettingextra credit for that.
So on near death.
On my second game, I use the sametempo, but I was like, this shit.
runs indefinitely.
Like, you know, if youknow, it's sort of shifts.
So like even today, like, you know, oncea month I sit down, do profit sharing.
(01:57:09):
It takes me about an hour.
So I'll get an extra hour ofwork on your desk every month.
I mean, this point doesn'tchange much, but yeah.
So, but yeah, it wasn't egalitarian.
It was just like, look, I'mnot trying to say anybody's,
work's more or less important.
Everybody gets that even gets the
cut
John (01:57:21):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, Yeah.
Yeah.
You kind of shot yourselfin the foot there.
Absolutely.
You didn't,
Kent (01:57:26):
live and learn.
John (01:57:27):
I'm done.
I'm shipped the game.
That's it like no
Kent (01:57:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
John (01:57:31):
space.
Kent (01:57:33):
that's right.
John (01:57:33):
in the digital space.
Kent (01:57:35):
That's right.
John (01:57:36):
I have notes here of figuring
out your rate on a contract
that I thought would be money.
Kent (01:57:42):
During both of the indie games I was
working on, every now and then opportunity
would come up to just do contract
work, just like, I wasn't necessarilylooking for it, but it was like,
you know, just people I knew whowere the companies like, Hey, you
have a little time to do this.
So it was mostly consulting,actually not contracting.
It was like, you know, Hey, come ondishonored for example, like Harvey
was like, Hey, we're at like alpha,can you come and like, come down
(01:58:03):
to Austin, we'll put you in a room.
You can play the gamefor three or four days.
I played through the whole thing.
They give us a report of like, you know,what you think, what should we change?
at alpha, we've got time tofix some stuff or whatever.
So like I basically just went downthere and played a whole bunch, wrote
up a big report and yo got paid aday rate, you know, whatever it was.
and so I did that, you know, for differentgames I did on the sound or two as well.
(01:58:23):
I did it on, I did some work on Bioshock,infinite that was parked contracting
and a little bit of consulting,but mostly contracting actually a
couple of smaller things or whatever.
But, but point being when I was inD these opportunities would come
along and each one's different.
Each one's a different time commitment.
some of them, I, I gave a littlemore of a friend rate to like
smaller companies that can't affordas much versus big publishers.
(01:58:44):
You, you can get more usually, There'sall this advice out there about like, oh,
you know, you've got to set your rate.
Cause whatever you set your rate at,you know, that's what you're known for.
And like you, you know,you've got to set it high 60.
If you drop it, you're just a grading.
Your, your radar.
It's like first off companiesdon't talk to each other.
So one company didn't know whatyou can charge another one.
But, but more to the point,like I found myself paralyzed
by trying to make sense of it.
(01:59:05):
Cause like, obviously like the higheryour rate is the more money he makes.
Of course that's what you want.
But at the same time you get to thisthing where it's like, you know,
I want $125 an hour and they'relike, oh, we can only do 100.
And it's like, wow, I want one 50.
You're like, like at some pointthese are just numbers that like,
you don't know where that line is.
You're like, why do it for 1 25?
But I won't do it for a hundred or Ido it for one 50, but not for 1 25.
(01:59:26):
Like what does that even mean?
Like, I didn't even know howI would make this decision.
And so the thing that clicked andhelped me sort of dial that in
was essentially putting it, not interms of, of a dollar sign that you
ultimately are, is somewhat arbitrary.
Like obviously higher is better,but like, but it's arbitrary.
And instead of putting in contextof like opportunity cost and what
you give up versus what you gained.
(01:59:47):
I think the cleanest example of thisfor me as I was working on my second
game near death, I found a composerI want to work with he's he's this
artist who I really liked someof his atmosphere, ambient music.
I was like, he's going to be perfect.
I attempt the game with his songsand I contacted him and I was like,
Hey, at first I just like, can I, canI just license some of your songs?
I found like, you know, some of the onesthat I like, can I just use them in the
game and I'll pay you or profit sharingor whatever I've reached out to him, you
John (02:00:10):
Yeah.
Kent (02:00:11):
And he's like,
Yeah, that sounds great.
But he's like, I'd also beinterested in scoring it.
If you, if you're up for that, it'slike, I could write some original stuff.
I was like, oh, damn that, wow.
It's kind of caught me off guard.
I was like, I didn't realizeyou, you even did that.
Like he was, he was just an artist.
I, I didn't know he'd done anycomposing, I think he'd done
like one indie movie at the time.
I think he's done more since then.
But, I was like, ohshit, that's a cool idea.
I was like, that sounds pretty good.
And we kind of went back and forth andhe proposed like, if I do 10 tracks
(02:00:33):
for you, maybe I could do it forthis much money per track, times 10.
So if you pay me this much,I'll do the full thing.
So we kind of had our own negotiation.
I have no, idea where he got hisnumbers from, but however it worked
out, it was reasonable to me.
And so right around the same time, Hardyreached out to me about doing that same
consulting thing on dishonored two.
And I literally had in my headlike, okay, I need this much
money to pay for the soundtrack.
(02:00:54):
And I just got the opportunity to do this.
And I was like, I don't havethis money in my bank account.
Like, I don't know where Iget the money to do that.
But this contract, you know, if I takethree or four days to go to Texas and,
and, consult on this game for a littlebit, if I multiply it out, I'm gonna
make this much, which is going topay off this much of this soundtrack.
Oh, shit.
That makes sense.
cause I was, six to eightmonths from shipping the game.
(02:01:16):
So like, I didn't want to take three,four, maybe a week off of the game.
Cause it's crunch time.
I'd make crunch time, like crunchhours by me, you know, winning time.
Like it's, you're closing.
But I was like, what I'm doingis I'm trading this five days.
Maybe my schedule slips or whatever,this is the stuff that I'm not
going to get to till next week.
But when I get that check, I can basicallydeposit it, cut the check over here.
And now I paid for the soundtrack.
So for me, if I hadn't had that soundtrackthing, I probably would have been
(02:01:39):
like, you know, honestly I just need tokeep my head down and finish my game.
But when I put it in terms of, I dothis, I lose five days, but I paid
for most of the soundtrack that solvesa big piece of the puzzle for my.
Then it became worth it becauseI could put it in value.
Like, what's it mean to me, what's itmean to the project I'm working on?
what value does it create?
And then it wasn't about dollars andcents and is at the right rate or not.
(02:01:59):
It was like, look, thisis an opportunity here.
It gets me this, it makes sense.
I'll do it.
You know?
Cause I turned down other stuffthat I didn't have that math.
John (02:02:06):
That helps, right?
like, Hey, two weeks, three weeks, onemonth working on this contract equals
three months of runway for my indie
Kent (02:02:15):
absolutely.
John (02:02:16):
I love that advice.
When you told me that that shoulddefinitely set off a light bulb to be
like, yo, in making, determining yourrate right as, oh, a lot of people out
there have to figure out this magicnumber, right at the bare minimum.
It's like time investment.
What do you absolutely need?
How do you want to investthat money into, right?
Is it y'all paying rent,feeding the family, paying for
(02:02:37):
healthcare or is it like, yo, it putsme this much closer to this passion
project or relocating and moving toHawaii or some shit like that, right?
Kent (02:02:48):
Yeah.
when I took the contracting, job onBioshock, infinite, those shortly after
I had gone Indy and it was straight up,like if I do this for one month, like I
said, we've been on that austerity plan,tracking our budget, saving the money.
So we knew our burnrate, like straight up.
We knew, we have this much money in thebank, we're spending this much a month.
And so I knew how muchwe were burning a month.
And so I said, if I do this for onemonth, it buys me five or six months.
(02:03:12):
I forget what the math was.
so it was a very clear picture oflike, I don't really want to do this.
I don't want to go to Boston in February,
across the country from my wifeand just stay in like corporate
housing to work on this.
But if I do this.
It buys me five,
you know, and, and that's when itwas like, click, that makes sense.
Bite the bullet, go do the thing.
So, So, that's all it is.
It's really like, just, justput it in your own terms,
(02:03:33):
understand what your opportunitycost is what are you giving up?
What are you getting?
And it's gotta make sense in, in ways thatlet you, understand why you're doing it.
You know, like that's,that's where it comes to.
John (02:03:42):
And is there any other language
or pro tips that you've learned
to throw into contracts that likecover your butt after the fact.
Kent (02:03:49):
Yeah.
I will say, and this is some of mywife has helped me with huge, cause
she's much more on the businessand operation side of the industry.
Is, don't look at a contract lookingfor the best case scenario, assuming
everything's going to go right.
John (02:04:01):
Yeah.
Kent (02:04:02):
When you look at a contract
run scenarios in your head,
what if this company goes on?
What if it turns out I hatethe people I'm working with.
I can't stand it.
What if go up there and the projectis and I can't even work on it.
What if, they come to me threemonths in and violate the contract.
(02:04:23):
grim and it's dark, but like usually,the stuff that I wish I'd done
better, like even, you know, thatprofit sharing agreement on my first
game versus how I modified it for mysecond game based on, learning the
hard way on some stuff like that.
Like I had a thing where there wasan artist who I worked with early on,
death who just flaked and just kindof disappeared and fell off the map.
(02:04:45):
And I had given this artist thesame contracts, everybody else.
And I was like, Oh my God.
I was like, I never sounded likethis person flaked on me completely.
And I was like, God, it's going to suckevery month, giving them profit sharing
because they got this many hours on thegame and produce nothing that I can use.
I'm just carrying like this goose egg.
John (02:05:01):
oh,
Kent (02:05:01):
mad at myself.
And I reached out and I was like, look,can we just, can we just sever this tie?
Can I just give you a lump sum?
And so I, and so I gave this artist a lumpsum got in writing for both of us addendum
to the contract that says no longerallowed to do profit sharing or whatever.
So are no longer part of profitsharing all on the up and up.
We both signed
it.
Lump sum.
Everybody's
John (02:05:19):
Okay.
Kent (02:05:19):
Just, cut the ties.
those are the ones, you know, look atit as, what, if it doesn't go right?
Like, like run the best series.
Cause that's what youneed to be protected for.
like in a good business relationship,you signed the contract, you both sign
it and you just put in a drawer andnever look at it again because contract's
only there for when shit goes bad.
John (02:05:36):
Nope.
Kent (02:05:37):
No one's ever looks
at the contract ever again.
If you say, pay me this much andwork three months and it goes great,
here's your check.
It's great.
Thanks so much.
No one even knows where the contract is.
So contracts are only therefor when things go bad.
So you really need to look atit from run a couple scenarios.
Am I protected?
Are they protected?
read the fine print who owns my work?
Is there weird restrictions?
Like look at stuff that says, youknow, weird non-compete that's often
(02:06:00):
not enforceable.
John (02:06:02):
Yeah, dude.
that's the only time I look atcontracts, it's like, Hey, I'm leaving.
What's this non-competelook like, do I have to pay
Kent (02:06:08):
yeah,
John (02:06:09):
bonuses?
What's the
Kent (02:06:10):
yeah, yeah.
and the, other thing, companiestry to scare you, this, that, and
the other, everything is negotiableand it never hurts to ask.
I guess if you're looking at a contract,this all looks good, except for this
one clause, I have a problem with
it.
Ask about it.
Like The worst thing that can happen is tosay, sorry, we have to have that in there.
We're not changing.
But you'd be surprised howoften they'd be like, Hey, is
(02:06:30):
there a change you want to make?
Maybe we can do something.
You can get it, you can getattendance, you can get it change.
like,
whatever, like, just getIt's on paper like that.
This lawyer's write that stuff up.
Like the people you're working with
might be willing to,you know, make a thing.
So,
yeah.
John (02:06:44):
as like know, we, we still just
to everybody as a starting point and
usually it's good enough for like80% of the people I like that can,
I definitely everything is negotiable.
And the more that I've been doingthis is you stop looking so much.
I kind of that upfront base salary,you start looking on the backend
thing, all the things, you know,like profit sharing and Hey, can I
work on my own thing on the side?
Kent (02:07:05):
That's a huge one.
John (02:07:07):
and, and, you know, they're not
going to offer that upfront off the
bat.
Right.
You got to ask for
that thing, right?
Yeah.
Kent (02:07:13):
But never be afraid to
ask the worst thing that can
happen is they just say, Nope.
John (02:07:17):
Mm.
Kent (02:07:18):
Yes.
Now, you know, and then that tells youa little bit about who you're working
with, because if they're not reasonable,then that might give you a little bit of
caution.
doesn't hurt to ask.
And now you've very much firmed up.
Like if they're that from there, they'reprobably gonna enforce it as well.
So like it's, it's all informationgathering so I can there's no,
there's no harm in asking and younever know sometimes, sometimes
I'll totally work with you on
(02:07:38):
it.
John (02:07:38):
yeah.
Do what I like that.
Right.
And you know, if it's not listed it'sprotecting you to get things in writing.
Right.
It's be like, yo, I want to be remote.
Or yo, I want it in writing that Ihave this much time available for
personal projects is something like
Kent (02:07:51):
absolutely.
John (02:07:53):
yeah.
Great tips, brother.
Great tips.
where the hell are you at today?
What's your role?
What are you doing over there?
What can you tell me about it?
Kent (02:08:01):
I'm the design director
at, uh, a new startup called,
breast line entertainment
and
John (02:08:07):
What are you located?
Kent (02:08:08):
were remote.
Like when the company started, theidea was to be, you know, one office in
Montreal, one office in New York city.
And it was like, you know,this was early 20, 21.
We were like, Oh my gosh,the pandemic is almost over.
It's gonna be, you know, we'llwork remote for a little bit.
And then we're all gonna, you know,come to one of those two locations.
And then obviously thepandemic didn't quite ENCE.
(02:08:29):
I signed on in like early April.
I started talking to them in veerin, in December of 2020, I guess
it was, just exploratory then.
But, but by like, March, I knewI had to get out of Ubisoft.
you know, I started in, in, inApril there and I originally started
actually on a six month contract
John (02:08:44):
Oh shit.
Kent (02:08:45):
yeah.
I was going to start my own company.
there's a perfect exampleactually what we were just saying.
Cause like I was talking to mybeer, just I've known him forever.
Like he's just an old friend, like frommore than 10 years ago at this point.
he's one of the founders by the way.
John (02:08:58):
Yeah.
there you go.
Kent (02:08:58):
Yeah.
He's, he's one of the three founders.
and so he's, but he's just afriend of mine from, from way back.
You know,
I had known for a while, he was tryingto get this company off the ground and
you know, slow going, because like Isaid, it's easy to get 95% weight in the
John (02:09:10):
You know,
Kent (02:09:10):
last little bit can take forever.
So I knew it was going on.
in, you know, late 20,was it late twenties?
Yeah.
Late 20, 20, I guess.
You know, he was like, Hey look, itlooks like we're really gonna sign.
Like for real, gonna sign
John (02:09:22):
you heard this before.
Kent (02:09:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but then, you know, don't knowthe exact timing, but I know that
when I started talking to them sortof early 20, 21, he was like, yo,
it's signed for real it's on paper.
John (02:09:31):
Okay.
Kent (02:09:32):
money, we are
hiring, we're starting.
this thing is for real.
and so I was like, that's great.
realized I was going to leave Ubisoft,I was, I was thinking I was gonna start
my own company and here in Toronto
and he was like, that's great.
You.
John (02:09:42):
did did You.
Kent (02:09:43):
was like, he was
like, you, should do
John (02:09:44):
what was, what was
Ubisoft Ubisoft was after?
Uh, what is it near death.
Kent (02:09:50):
Oh, no near death.
then after that I did a year,um, working on a narrative VR,
John (02:09:56):
Oh,
Kent (02:09:57):
I actually worked
at Oculus story studio,
John (02:09:59):
oh shit.
Kent (02:10:00):
yeah.
On a project called wolves in the wallsVR, which will be on another hour.
If I talk about
John (02:10:04):
Okay.
Kent (02:10:05):
though.
That, I mean, that was, was areally, that was a really great team.
I worked with there as well.
We made a really cool thing.
John (02:10:10):
Uh,
Kent (02:10:11):
into Sundance and
official selection, which
is like a career highlight.
Um, you, if you have an Oculus quest too,or just a Oculus rift, check out wolves
in the walls, it Is it is really cool.
it's like being in a Pixar movie.
and it's interactive.
It's in, right.
It's really, really cool.
But if I start, I won't stop.
So I'll
leave
John (02:10:28):
it
based on a
Kent (02:10:29):
check that out if you have
based on a Neil game and children's
book.
John (02:10:32):
shit.
Kent (02:10:34):
Yeah.
So it is, it is super dope.
Check it out.
I'm very proud of it.
And, that was the second gradeteam that I'd ever worked with.
Shout out to everybody atstory studio and fable,
John (02:10:44):
Sweet.
I'm glad I got that.
Glad, glad I
got that, but I hate, I don't want youto feel like I'm just glancing over that.
I think we
will definitely talk aboutthat on your, on your part to,
Kent (02:10:56):
I know we're at time, so yeah,
we'll glance right off that but yeah,
basically near-death was the second one Ihad my first, I had my kid two weeks after
the shift went to hockey story studioended up working on wolves in the walls.
that we decide we want to get out SanFrancisco because the city had changed
so much came to Toronto, Ubisoft,Toronto, quit there started brass line.
and so when VR was super cool,he was like, look, I know you
wanna start your, own company,but we're getting off the ground.
(02:11:17):
You've got a lot of experience.
Why don't you just signwith us like six months?
just kind of us, however you wantto help us like to get started.
Like you're experienced, um, you know,I'm sure we can find stuff to work on.
it was super up front.
he gave me a very favorable contract.
He said, we'll just do a, a day rate.
So instead of hourly or.
You just get this much for everyday work.
And he's like, if there's days you need totake off to focus on your company stuff.
(02:11:38):
That's cool.
Take them off.
Just let it give us, youknow, give us a heads up.
Don't just show up in the morning.
Be like I'm out.
But he's like give us a heads up.
But otherwise, you know, they were like,we'll help you get your company started.
He was, he was, he was like, youknow, we just went through it.
We know all this stuff.
We can hook you up with our lawyers.
Like they were SU it wascompletely up and up.
They were like, us out for six monthswhile you're doing your company thing.
What part is friends?
That'd be great.
John (02:11:58):
uh,
Kent (02:11:58):
you as well.
So they were, I mean, you know, thefounders of this company are like,
wild, how they're amazing human beings.
Um, so they were super supportive of this.
But then, I mean, within, threemonths of being there, I was just
like, I ran out of excuses to,
leave.
I was just like this.
I was just like, I love,
John (02:12:19):
What were you telling yourself?
You're trying to, trying to find excusesto, like, I got to go do my own thing.
Kent (02:12:25):
well, it was, it was just
like, I was like, what the F was
like, what am I trying to do?
I was like, cause you know, brassline is a mission oriented company.
And you know, my company wasgoing to be like, I want to work
on cool video games like that.
Like that was my mission.
I was like, I want to work on stuff.
I like,
John (02:12:40):
Yeah,
Kent (02:12:41):
and brass line is like
trying to change entertainment
John (02:12:44):
yeah, man.
Kent (02:12:45):
change the face of entertainment,
John (02:12:46):
Uh,
Kent (02:12:47):
like, who makes it.
Um, and so you, when you go there,you feel like you've got this
extra sense of purpose from it.
John (02:12:53):
oh yeah.
All the stories that haven't beentold by the people who haven't
been able to tell the stories.
Kent (02:12:59):
absolutely, absolutely.
the longer I worked there, themore I was like, just number one.
Like this is a specialplace with special people.
Like, I mean the, the team, theteam that's assembled there is like,
I just, I, every day being there.
I love that.
like I said, like it's a thirdgrade team that I've ever worked
with, but I think you have to shipsomething to put the stamp on it.
John (02:13:20):
Sure.
Kent (02:13:20):
the third in progress, but I mean,
it's, it's such a great crew of people
John (02:13:23):
Oh yeah.
Kent (02:13:23):
uh, it's just different.
Like it's not just the mission.
It's like the
John (02:13:28):
I'm sure the
energy is crazy.
Kent (02:13:30):
The energy is wild.
John (02:13:32):
hurt to
have just blazed in on those chats.
I know you're a hip hop head.
I'm a hip hop head, man.
Kent (02:13:37):
that is, that is like the most
fun part of it is like, just random.
Like
when we're in
John (02:13:42):
just blaze the game developer.
What.
Kent (02:13:45):
it is wild getting a DM
on slack from just blaze and be
like, yo, you want to talk to me?
What the fuck?
You know?
I like when you put something inthe game and he thinks it's dope.
You're like, okay, I'm done for the
John (02:13:56):
Yeah,
Kent (02:13:56):
I'm
John (02:13:57):
excited off on that
one.
Kent (02:13:59):
And it's funny too.
Cause he's like, he's so down to earth.
John (02:14:02):
Um,
Kent (02:14:03):
like, he's a rock star.
He's not a rock star.
You know what I mean?
Like he, like,
John (02:14:06):
I'm sure he's a creator, right?
He just loves to create
stuff
Kent (02:14:09):
Oh my God.
John (02:14:10):
and I'm sure to him, you
guys are the rock stars, you
know, like, yo, these people madegames, you know what I'm saying?
Like I got to listen to
Kent (02:14:18):
it is weird whenever, like when he
likes something that you worked on, you're
like, yeah, but I mean, come on man.
Like, you're you, I'mjust a game developer.
Like you, you know, like, likeyou don't want to believe it.
it's funny cause you know, he,you know, he works on the rock
clock as I like to say, like he'shours in the lab or whatever.
So he'll be like not on slack for likethree days and all of a sudden, just in
a random section and be like, by the way,check out this little mix-up put together.
(02:14:40):
And it's like a headbanger like, so likeyou're just like it's out of nowhere.
So really cool.
it's a great crew, not just forthe mission piece of it, but like
the work-life balance, the empathy.
the support
John (02:14:52):
the empathy.
Kent (02:14:53):
for families,
everything about it, man.
It's like.
I've never worked somewhere this before.
And it's like, at this point,man, I'm 10 months in the,
honeymoon's a long since over
John (02:15:02):
True.
Kent (02:15:04):
this, this isn't just like, oh yeah,
you know, we're, we're in that phase.
It's like, no, it's it's every day.
It's like a it's I don't know, man.
It's a special place.
John (02:15:12):
you haven't even met them in person.
Right.
You haven't even all kind ofbeen in the one on the one roof
yet.
Kent (02:15:17):
I actually, last week I
was very fortunate, um, meet.
So my wife is from Jersey wewent back to visit her family
John (02:15:25):
Hm.
Kent (02:15:25):
for just a couple of days.
Um, but you know, a good numberof people at breast line are from
north Jersey and New York city.
And so I was like, I'm gonna be in town.
Do I want to try to get together?
And so we basically rented a, we renteda conference room at a hotel in, uh,
in Hoboken and we're all vaccinated.
We all tested the morning ofto like, make sure we're good.
(02:15:49):
we did PCR tests and we'relike, okay, we're good.
We're vaccinated PCR.
We're all clean.
We show up.
And we ha and we all broughtour laptops around the table.
It was the first timehad met any of them in
John (02:15:58):
Yeah.
Kent (02:15:58):
Yeah.
We worked together
John (02:15:59):
Wow.
Kent (02:16:00):
magical.
It was so cool meeting thesepeople that I've like seen
on the screen for 10 months.
And so like, we want to tryto do it again, like we're,
John (02:16:06):
It must have all felt
like you were a giant bro.
They were like, yo shit.
Didn't think you were
that tall
Kent (02:16:11):
I told them that was,
that was the joke the whole day.
Cause I told them before I waslike, I, I was like, I'm tall
you know?
And they're like, oh whatever.
But like, especially like my zoomcamera at work is like on top of my
John (02:16:19):
yeah.
Kent (02:16:20):
down on me.
So it makes me look
John (02:16:21):
Perspective.
Yep.
Kent (02:16:23):
every time I stood up to like
give somebody a hug, when they came in
the room, they were like, holy shit.
we have taught people that ourstudio, like there's multiple
people are like 6 1, 6, 2, they'relike, damn, you really are tall.
John (02:16:32):
And then you got some, you
got some short people as well, man.
I
know
Kent (02:16:36):
do.
Yes we do.
John (02:16:38):
that's gotta be
some
pictures.
It's wonderful.
Kent (02:16:41):
our friend, Elaine
coming into five foot, nothing.
John (02:16:44):
But uh, but a powerhouse
creative man, a lot of passion.
Kent (02:16:49):
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's
it is a super, super dope place.
And we're it hurts that like, not tobe able to talk more about it because
like nothing's announced, I don't eventhink we're signed with is announced.
Like I gotta, I gotta playthat close to the chest, but
it is, it's a cool, cool place.
I feel, I feel lucky every day.
John (02:17:04):
Hell yeah.
That's what I love.
Right?
Hearing the journey from the endsto the doubt outs, the highs,
the lows be