April 24, 2023 • 32 mins
Explore gender and sexuality with Courtney Rago and Steve Wilson - two of our therapists who are queer and also work with many queer clients. Courtney and Steve will dive deeper into the definitions and terminology used by the LGBTQIA2S+ community. They'll also share their own experiences and identity, and discuss how definitions themselves can be frustrating.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
My name is Courtney and my name is Steve and we're out of
(00:03):
session with kind of an income, a feelings forward podcast where
we leave our therapists elves. At the door and have real messy
conversations about being human.Today's topic is an exploration
about gender and sexuality. So our chat today is the first
of several conversations. We want to have.
This is a big and messy topic, and we couldn't hope to cover
everything in one go. So today we'll talk about what
(00:25):
this means to us. Get into some definitions
terminology. And talk about why definitions
are themselves frustrating and explore other dimensions of
gender and sexuality that will take time to go deeper into in
the future. We think it's really important
to note that as we record this, there is a current re-emergence
of waves of anti L u+ legislation in the United
(00:48):
States. Particularly targeted at trans
folks and trans kids we condemn these measures and want to offer
support to any and all lgbtqia to Spirit Plus folks.
And their allies. So please visit the blog at
caimen .ko for a fuller statement, as well as resources
for support and advocacy. So part of what I think is
(01:12):
really important for any sort ofdiscussion.
When we're talking about identity, is to talk about how
are the people having the discussion identifying
themselves. And I just want to say that I am
fully aware that like identity in these questions can also
reflect fluidity. So, none of this has to be
fixed. Yeah, so making space for that.
(01:37):
But here, as a person having this discussion, I am a sis
white male, gay male. I identify as queer to me.
Queer and gay. Don't necessarily reflect the
same thing also educated raised in an upper-middle-class
(01:58):
environment. I am a citizen an able-bodied.
I know that I am a person. He who carries a whole lot of
privilege in this world and so that I get to talk about this
topic and many topics from a position of relative Ease
comfort and safety which you know, is not available to a lot
of people. And I think why it matters to me
(02:19):
to have these conversations frommy sort of position is not to
take up space in the conversation but to invite other
people who are like me to participate in the conversation
so that might mean listening in,or making space for others to
talk. But also, Reflecting that if you
are in a position of privilege, like I am that.
(02:40):
We also have a duty to make space and speak out for people
who might not feel safe to do so, or comfortable to do so.
So that we can provide safety incommunity with people who just
don't share. All of the intersections of
identity with us who may not have as much privilege as we do
(03:01):
and I'm probably left out some pieces of my identity which
Which can come up in in additional conversations.
So yeah, that's where I'm comingfrom in this conversation.
Thank you for that Steve. I couldn't agree more.
I think it's absolutely integralthat we both locate ourselves in
(03:23):
the conversation and hold space for the privilege with which we
are entering the conversation. So, I am a white non-binary
bisexuals / queer, not model sexual human.
(03:43):
I was Socialized, as a girl and I am able bodied.
I come from a place of like significant privilege in terms
of like higher education and access to Academia.
I was born and raised in the United States and you know, in
(04:06):
New Jersey. So East Coast represent for
sure, and I am absolutely sorry.Night missing, so very many
facets of identity. T.
But not every time we click record somehow I like, forget
how to speak, which is probably not great for someone who is
currently speaking on a podcast to name, but here we are.
(04:26):
So this is a big topic and we'rein an audio medium and so it
requires a lot of discussion about language.
There's a lot of terminology that comes up around talking
about gender. Sexuality sexual identity.
What do all of these things? Mean are we talking about?
About the same thing. I'm just curious to get your
(04:48):
take Courtney as somebody who spends a lot of time, thinking,
researching and spending spaces in kind of wrestling with these
ideas. But just start with, with
gender, and I'm curious for yourthoughts on some of that.
I think it's funny like noticingthat I'm like, nodding at you
(05:09):
and making faces at you, as you name like it's an audio format
OHS. Oh yeah it is.
And so I think that that's in some ways bringing in some ways
limiting because language is a limited construct and Write the
(05:30):
language surrounding lgbtqia+ identities, continues to shift
and grow as Society gains acceptance for broader more
fluid identities. And folks have more space to
self-identify and build languagein ways that feel safe and also
right then some of the, the terms that like, I'll throw out
(05:55):
because I spend so much time in query search and queer spaces
with, like my sister. Pat humans, who like, don't
spend a lot of time in this space there like wait what did
you just say to me? What does that word mean?
And so I think like just to start, there is no right or
wrong way to Use language to describe yourself.
(06:20):
So I think inherently, we need to get on the same page about
what language were using and also own that the language were
using is limited and that we want to make this podcast as
acceptable as possible to folks who are inside of queer
communities and outside of queercommunities and give us space to
(06:40):
explore language and also holds that identity is not stagnant.
In an identity is not black and white.
And that there's freedom to identify in ways that feel right
for you. And so, I find myself wanting to
name that like, inherently, justby laying out, definitions were
(07:01):
missing folks. And were probably saying things
that don't resonate with folks. And we're maybe introducing
terms to folks who aren't familiar with a lot of this.
And so I like find myself wanting to name that because
language is a construct. It's limited and also free
because it needs we can construct new terms and new
words. And also, then there has to be
(07:24):
like a coming to terms with likethe way we Define some things,
the way research to find some things, the way websites and
individuals to find and explore.And identify themselves is
inherently going to be unique and there is no one way to be
queer. There's no one way to be to
exist to show up. And so I think in just trying to
Define this all, we're inherently going to kind of Miss
(07:46):
some folks and hopefully help some folks feel seeing I think
that's really important and I think as you discuss you were
talking about how queerness is always emergent and evolving and
we are understanding new things about ourselves and as culture
changes and develops, more capacity for complexity around
identities different folks hold language is always constantly
(08:09):
evolving and language has the power to hurt.
Language has the power to restrict language has the power
to erase And ignore and I think let you know that's what's
coming to mind as I'm hearing you talk about what we're doing
here and so yeah, this is this is not we are not the experts.
We are people who think about and are confused about a lot of
(08:30):
this stuff, a lot of the time and I think I want to welcome
anybody who's listening to allowyourself, to be confused and
allow yourself to be like, curious about this and what
comes up for you as new or triggering or a frustrating and
seeing where that where that might be coming from because
some of the language that we're going to talk about here is
(08:53):
stuff that was formerly really hurtful language to hear at a
certain point in my life and there is you know that aspect of
reclaiming language to and beingable to use something that was
hurtful to find community and tofind some more Liberation out of
that space of hurt and pain has been a really important part of
(09:15):
the Image for me. Yeah, I think I'm just well
you're sharing reflecting on theterm queer in and of itself and
how it was slur. Mmm.
And like I know in a lot of my upbringing was very much used in
that way. Yeah.
And like their Reclamation of the word and there are still
some folks May identify and are within lgbtqia+ communities.
(09:41):
That really don't like the term and some of us in the like yeah,
absolutely. Let's reclaim clear.
And then like the term homosexual, like some folks feel
really seen by that term and some folks are like, actually
know that was like the DSM diagnosis that literally
pathologized our existence and absolutely, I don't align with
that term. So I think even just like,
(10:03):
within the shifts and girls havelanguage.
There's room for these words might feel really icky and
Squishy and like new in like a vulnerable raw and learning new
things weigh. These words might feel really
hurtful and harmful. Awful and like, absolutely or
not. Okay, with me way.
And these words feel more free and flexible and fluid.
Like and even just me category categorizing.
(10:24):
Those three things is like, super limiting, right?
Because they're so. So, so much gray area.
Like there is nothing black and white about queerness exactly.
And I think that I just want to pick up the thread on that word
queer because I felt the same way.
It was a slur growing up for me in the 90s.
Like it was just I didn't want to even let it come out of my
(10:48):
mouth because it felt so ugly tome and as I became more of an
adult and I started to be in queer spaces, I realized the
power of it to bring together everyone in that gray space and
to me, the word queer has been very liberating because it does
not focus on the these differentdimensions.
(11:09):
Although it provides space for all those dimensions and I think
it brings together all of us to be able to talk Talk about it
and be in that space together which I think the the lgbtqia
and the whole alphabet really focuses on those differences
which are important but also there's space between all these
things. And when I think of the word
(11:30):
queer, I'm going to misquote her.
But Bell hooks kind of defines the word queer in a way that
feels good to me as that part ofme which feels at odds with the
rest of the world. And for me it's kind of this
political designation of like here.
In some kind of solidarity that I can have with other folks who
are at odds with the majority culture of the way that it
(11:52):
defines, what is acceptable or normal?
And at the same time, you know, I've gotten to live in other
places where I used the word queer thinking that I am like
totally, this like liberated cool person and that was a
really hurtful thing for me to do because I didn't under the
understand the context of where I was and queer was not
(12:13):
appreciated in those communities.
But that were very much in my understanding, queer, queer
communities, it's just that. This language was, it's not
helpful there. Mmm.
And so, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of tenderness.
And, and care that we have to put into how we speak to each
other around. All this stuff.
(12:34):
Absolutely. And even in what you just said,
the word communities, like that word alone is so important
because I think what often happens.
And what I hear a lot is like, people in the lgbtq+ community
and like, yes, there is like that is a thing and also there
(12:56):
are communities within it, right?
Like queer communities. There are so many facets of the
queer Island that so to speak. And what exists within that that
it's not just like one overall Community, there are so many
intricacies and facets and communities Within in lgbtqia+
(13:17):
community, I think that's my trip and it reminds me of how
those communities have not always Worked well together.
Yeah, and I think it's very, it's important that like we
understand about the history of this.
What I'm calling a queer Community, was never a monolith
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and isn't is not a total monolith.
I am a sis male, sis gay, white male, that puts me kind of in
this place where there is a lot of privilege that I'm holding
and I think, In the history of this whole Community.
There has been a disproportionate amount of
(14:01):
support and attention. Put on people like me even
including like the history of the LGBT Center here in Los
Angeles, which was like the gay forget.
I forget their original title but they didn't even want to add
the word lesbian. To the title of their
organization. So, they're like, a bunch of
lesbian activist, came in and like, painted on all their signs
(14:24):
because they're like, hey, we are here too and it's been a lot
of that through the history of this whole community and it's
like making sure that there is enough space for everybody makes
me realize that like, that language is important.
And like, people people get to Define themselves, but we also
have to allow space for people to Define themselves.
(14:45):
Yeah, I think in so So many narratives center around.
Like the least marginalized in amarginalized community and I
think that's where the importance of intersectionality
and holding space for facets of marginalization and privilege in
(15:07):
all humans is absolutely integral.
Right? If we look at the history of
like feminism and white feminism, that completely erased
women of color and was just likewell, At least marginalized
group within a marginalized group like, okay, well, well,
the white women deserve this butthe women of color, don't or
(15:30):
trans exclusionary feminists, right?
Like, well sis women deserve this but trans women don't, you
know, and kind of the history ofthat, right leg, you know,
movements for gay rights, being centered around says gay, white
men and all of the impact of allof that and the Erasure of
(15:51):
certain communities within communities, and the impact of
that. Because it happened, I like it
happens in Time, and Time, and Time, and Time Again in history.
It makes me want to dive into some more definitions.
Because it feels like so much ofthis is really hard to talk
about because we can acknowledgehow complex it all is and I know
(16:14):
from previous conversations thatwe have.
We like to deconstruct these things and I want to hear your
take on The relationship betweengender and sexuality.
As constructs in question, should we should we go through
like the lgbtqia+, acronym? That we've been using, let's do
it really quick. So just to, like, break down the
(16:37):
words in that, acronym the L stands for lesbian, which right
traditionally is mono, sexual, women who are attracted to
women, what's monosexual? - sexual is attracted to one
gender gay men. So it's like I say, gay and now
(16:59):
I'm like, yes but gay is also, you know, was originally and has
no real been reclaimed as a catch-all.
Mhm, kind of similar to queer but gay men.
Right. Like are men who are attracted
to men. So so there's the G.
That's the g b. So the B is for bisexual and
sometimes you'll see the be witha little Plus Next to it to buy
(17:21):
plus identities. They are often misrepresented
and misunderstood and frequentlylumped into categories with
those who hold mono sexual identities, despite having like
vastly different experiences. So bisexuality, a bisexual
identity, refers to someone, whocan be physically, sexually
(17:43):
romantically and, or emotionallyattracted to individuals of
multiple genders. However, this attraction is not
Sorry Lee simultaneous nor is itnecessarily the same type of
attraction or to the same degreeor at the same time.
So, effectively identities that are non monosexual or are pleura
sexual fall within the by plus umbrella other, you know, terms
(18:08):
that and identities that folks hold that live within the by
plus umbrella are also, like pansexual identity and folks who
use Queer as their sexual orientation identifier.
So, a lot of these focus on On sexual identity, sexual,
behaviors sexuality. And through that there is kind
(18:28):
of a through line of gender stuff.
So, these things can be really can be really closely linked,
but they're not the same, right?And so, I think that's the thing
that like, early early on in like 50 60s, 70s, even 80s, when
some queer research, really started.
There was like this, like, lump together.
(18:51):
Of sexuality and gender and the more and more research happens.
The more we hope that these identities are not necessarily
linked identity formation like gender identity formation and
sexuality identity formation often happen together but one
(19:12):
doesn't like necessitate the other or one doesn't necessarily
predict the others probably. A better way to put that if that
makes. A sense.
I think that makes sense, they're closely related.
It's almost impossible to talk about them without, including
some understanding of the other two.
I think they the different dimensions of sexuality, inform
(19:34):
gender and vice versa. But they are not defining each
other, right? But they help us understand
things in relationship. Brings us to the the next part
of the, of the queer. Alphabet.
So to speak the be trans. And so, I think you named
(19:55):
earlier sis, do you want to Define sis?
I defined this as feeling like my gender identity is consistent
with the gender that I was assigned at Birth and the way
that I present in the world. So I am a male that is how I was
(20:17):
raised and socialized. And that feels comfortable for
me. I am as society would expect me
to be in that way. Which feels like a weird way of
saying. I don't know if that's that
doesn't sound like the most academic sort of definition of
it, but that's how it feels to me.
I don't think we have to be academic or supposed to be
(20:38):
messy. What did we say?
That's right. I'm being messy.
Right? Podcast, which I acknowledge is
hard because you are talking to me a person who literally
recertified. Yeah.
So sorry, did I get it right? You're talking about yourself,
so I guess you got great for you, right?
(21:00):
But generally, I guess academically, cisgender is
someone whose gender identity isconsistent with the sex they
were assigned at Birth, right? So, sex being male, female
intersex, they were assigned at Birth.
Then you mentioned right? Like was raised as and
socialized as a boy and man. And so That some folks prefer to
(21:23):
like separate out the term male and female and intersex as a
sex. Identifier and like boy, man
woman girl, non-binary gender fluid as the gender identifiers.
For some folks, those are separate for some folks, they
aren't, it's really just like what feels right for you, huh?
Because part of gender, is thereis a difference between the sex
(21:46):
assigned at Birth gender, genderidentity, gender expression like
All of the, and all of these things are separate from sexual
orientation, which defines rightonce attraction to others,
sexual, physical romantic, and or emotional, which is again,
where we get into this. Like, these things are laying so
closely, linked and are also separate.
(22:07):
Yeah, also separate. I think one of the thing that
you mentioned, which has been key to my understanding and kind
of a jumping off point, was the difference between sex and
gender. we're sex in my understanding is generally a
more biological kind of determination, which I know is
(22:27):
also really confusing because there is very little consensus
about how do you define somebodysexually when actually sex
itself is a spectrum and gender,which is a socially defined
construct, about what it means to be a man or be a woman, which
Which we, as a culture tend to be very binary about things.
(22:52):
Totally and some folks even likedon't use the term gender.
They're just like my identity isbecause gender is socially
constructed. It effectively, almost
everything is socially constructed, right?
Language is socially constructed, right?
And it's interesting. So all of this stuff is feels
very Shifty like we are, we are on not very Solid Ground I think
(23:16):
as human beings we like things to feel very Less complex and
easier to understand because theworld around us is really
complicated. And as we delve closer and
deeper into this type of subject, we realize gender.
And sexuality is as complicated as everything else which makes
(23:37):
our human relationships, feel really complicated?
Yeah, I'm realizing we didn't defend the tea.
Oh yeah, t. Start it.
Let's say we started with this, right.
So when someone is Cisgender, their gender identity matches,
the sex they were assigned at Birth.
So transgender individuals at trans, folks are people whose
gender identity does not align with the sex.
(23:59):
They were assigned at Birth and non-binary is an umbrella term
for individuals who experience, gender outside of the typical
binary categories of, man and woman.
And some there is no similarly to like there's no one way to be
clear. There's no one way to be sis or
trans or non-binary and because we live in a society that Love's
(24:20):
binary categorisation and like, categorization in general, that
gets messy when people don't fitinto or their gender expression
doesn't match what Society has like defined as like, this is
what a man looks like. And tries to force, CIS, and
(24:41):
trans men, to all fit into like this presentation.
I think that's a really important part of it and I think
that that speaks to the very powerful part.
Art of the socialization aspect that there is an expectation of
how to be these, these binary kind of types of people and my
(25:01):
hope for like, what might come of some of this exploding of
complexity is that there is a lot more capacity for
exploration and freedom, and self-expression, and finding
Community with people who are totally, not like us who are
like us. But, Something very important to
them, that is different. And to celebrate that and to
(25:23):
acknowledge all that because I think that there's an
expectation that we're all goingto be the same.
And I think that's why I like the word queer because queer to
me means weird and different andI love that.
And I want to learn more about queerness and weirdness because
I think there is a lot of space there and for creativity and
(25:48):
Liberation and pleasure and all These things that I think are
really important that everyone has a birth rate to yeah.
Yeah. I had so many different thoughts
while you're speaking, I don't know which one to like heck.
There's just so much here, like,dig into.
I'm also thinking of the use of trans as a verb that, like thank
(26:14):
and I'm going to kick myself later for not looking this up
before we recorded this, but Judith Butler.
Okay, that talked about trans and gender.
Mmm and really making like usingtrans as a verb.
Right. That it's not necessarily
following like society's definition and ideas around like
(26:35):
gender and sex assigned at Birthand and what and socialization.
And all of these things which I will also need that like some
non-binary folks identify as trans.
And some don't, some don't feel like the term trans works for
them or resonates for their identity.
I love that. So we'll stick to it.
(26:56):
Like the lgbtqia+, just like in our definitions to start.
I'm sure we will get deeper and deeper in this as we go.
But I stands for intersex and then that a is asexual aromantic
folks, and we got to forgot the queue, okay.
We've been talking about queer. Well, they're really cute so
cute here but there is also questioning questioning.
(27:21):
Yeah, so Q is also one of the letters that different folks
Sometimes it's like use it for folks who are questioning their
sexual orientation and their gender identity.
All of these things, they're like place in the world and like
how they fit into it and Q is also used as queer.
I'm so it depends, it depends. Yeah.
(27:42):
So that's that's the lgbtqia+. Like I said, there are many
other letters and iterations of the like acronym and we'll get
hopefully, and too many of them in our future topics.
I love I love that you bring up Judith Butler it brings to mind
kind of where I hope we can go with this conversation because I
(28:05):
know like we just started to unravel this tapestry of
queerness, lgbtq to Spirit Plus all of this stuff and just
started to just scratch the surface and I'm curious where
like other topics that I think we.
And get into our, you know, diving more into thinkers like
(28:29):
Judith Butler are there are so many important.
I can tie, my mind is like blocking me from trying to name
them all because they're just too many to name but important
folks that have a lot to say whohave shaped discussions around
queerness and all the different iterations of queerness.
I like the idea of talking aboutmedia and representation of
(28:52):
queerness. What do you think we should?
What are some deeper topics we should get into in the future?
I mean there are a lot I think narratives around coming out in
the coming out, process are really important to talk about
the idea of like passing like the The Narrative of like to
(29:13):
queer. Not clear enough.
Definitely like a deep dive intointersectionality, right?
We are talking here about even just like a definition of terms
and haven't even really gone. And to delve into other
intersecting aspects of identityrace culture religion,
neurodivergent whether or not you're able bodied.
(29:36):
I'm like thinking of how very many intersecting aspects of
identity there are and just how deep we can really go in this
and hopefully have some like guest stars because we are both
white folks. I think that's the way important
to name. We have our own particular
experiences in our bodies. How we present to the world and
(29:56):
I think this is too big of a conversation for two people to
have. And so, I think I'm looking
forward to hearing what else comes up.
Who else can join us? Who else can stand in for us at
times or take their own space inthis space?
So thank you for having this very preliminary discussion with
me. Yeah, thank you.
(30:19):
Before we go back into session, we're bringing you to the wall.
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(31:42):
heteronormativity and fashion and culture.
Their Instagram is like an internal source of just a
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Each me so much, so definitely check them out and we will see
you next time. When we're out of session,
My name is Courtney and my name is Steve and we're out of
(00:03):
session with kind of an income, a feelings forward podcast where
we leave our therapists elves. At the door and have real messy
conversations about being human.Today's topic is an exploration
about gender and sexuality. So our chat today is the first
of several conversations. We want to have.
This is a big and messy topic, and we couldn't hope to cover
everything in one go. So today we'll talk about what
(00:25):
this means to us. Get into some definitions
terminology. And talk about why definitions
are themselves frustrating and explore other dimensions of
gender and sexuality that will take time to go deeper into in
the future. We think it's really important
to note that as we record this, there is a current re-emergence
of waves of anti L u+ legislation in the United
(00:48):
States. Particularly targeted at trans
folks and trans kids we condemn these measures and want to offer
support to any and all lgbtqia to Spirit Plus folks.
And their allies. So please visit the blog at
caimen .ko for a fuller statement, as well as resources
for support and advocacy. So part of what I think is
(01:12):
really important for any sort ofdiscussion.
When we're talking about identity, is to talk about how
are the people having the discussion identifying
themselves. And I just want to say that I am
fully aware that like identity in these questions can also
reflect fluidity. So, none of this has to be
fixed. Yeah, so making space for that.
(01:37):
But here, as a person having this discussion, I am a sis
white male, gay male. I identify as queer to me.
Queer and gay. Don't necessarily reflect the
same thing also educated raised in an upper-middle-class
(01:58):
environment. I am a citizen an able-bodied.
I know that I am a person. He who carries a whole lot of
privilege in this world and so that I get to talk about this
topic and many topics from a position of relative Ease
comfort and safety which you know, is not available to a lot
of people. And I think why it matters to me
(02:19):
to have these conversations frommy sort of position is not to
take up space in the conversation but to invite other
people who are like me to participate in the conversation
so that might mean listening in,or making space for others to
talk. But also, Reflecting that if you
are in a position of privilege, like I am that.
(02:40):
We also have a duty to make space and speak out for people
who might not feel safe to do so, or comfortable to do so.
So that we can provide safety incommunity with people who just
don't share. All of the intersections of
identity with us who may not have as much privilege as we do
(03:01):
and I'm probably left out some pieces of my identity which
Which can come up in in additional conversations.
So yeah, that's where I'm comingfrom in this conversation.
Thank you for that Steve. I couldn't agree more.
I think it's absolutely integralthat we both locate ourselves in
(03:23):
the conversation and hold space for the privilege with which we
are entering the conversation. So, I am a white non-binary
bisexuals / queer, not model sexual human.
(03:43):
I was Socialized, as a girl and I am able bodied.
I come from a place of like significant privilege in terms
of like higher education and access to Academia.
I was born and raised in the United States and you know, in
(04:06):
New Jersey. So East Coast represent for
sure, and I am absolutely sorry.Night missing, so very many
facets of identity. T.
But not every time we click record somehow I like, forget
how to speak, which is probably not great for someone who is
currently speaking on a podcast to name, but here we are.
(04:26):
So this is a big topic and we'rein an audio medium and so it
requires a lot of discussion about language.
There's a lot of terminology that comes up around talking
about gender. Sexuality sexual identity.
What do all of these things? Mean are we talking about?
About the same thing. I'm just curious to get your
(04:48):
take Courtney as somebody who spends a lot of time, thinking,
researching and spending spaces in kind of wrestling with these
ideas. But just start with, with
gender, and I'm curious for yourthoughts on some of that.
I think it's funny like noticingthat I'm like, nodding at you
(05:09):
and making faces at you, as you name like it's an audio format
OHS. Oh yeah it is.
And so I think that that's in some ways bringing in some ways
limiting because language is a limited construct and Write the
(05:30):
language surrounding lgbtqia+ identities, continues to shift
and grow as Society gains acceptance for broader more
fluid identities. And folks have more space to
self-identify and build languagein ways that feel safe and also
right then some of the, the terms that like, I'll throw out
(05:55):
because I spend so much time in query search and queer spaces
with, like my sister. Pat humans, who like, don't
spend a lot of time in this space there like wait what did
you just say to me? What does that word mean?
And so I think like just to start, there is no right or
wrong way to Use language to describe yourself.
(06:20):
So I think inherently, we need to get on the same page about
what language were using and also own that the language were
using is limited and that we want to make this podcast as
acceptable as possible to folks who are inside of queer
communities and outside of queercommunities and give us space to
(06:40):
explore language and also holds that identity is not stagnant.
In an identity is not black and white.
And that there's freedom to identify in ways that feel right
for you. And so, I find myself wanting to
name that like, inherently, justby laying out, definitions were
(07:01):
missing folks. And were probably saying things
that don't resonate with folks. And we're maybe introducing
terms to folks who aren't familiar with a lot of this.
And so I like find myself wanting to name that because
language is a construct. It's limited and also free
because it needs we can construct new terms and new
words. And also, then there has to be
(07:24):
like a coming to terms with likethe way we Define some things,
the way research to find some things, the way websites and
individuals to find and explore.And identify themselves is
inherently going to be unique and there is no one way to be
queer. There's no one way to be to
exist to show up. And so I think in just trying to
Define this all, we're inherently going to kind of Miss
(07:46):
some folks and hopefully help some folks feel seeing I think
that's really important and I think as you discuss you were
talking about how queerness is always emergent and evolving and
we are understanding new things about ourselves and as culture
changes and develops, more capacity for complexity around
identities different folks hold language is always constantly
(08:09):
evolving and language has the power to hurt.
Language has the power to restrict language has the power
to erase And ignore and I think let you know that's what's
coming to mind as I'm hearing you talk about what we're doing
here and so yeah, this is this is not we are not the experts.
We are people who think about and are confused about a lot of
(08:30):
this stuff, a lot of the time and I think I want to welcome
anybody who's listening to allowyourself, to be confused and
allow yourself to be like, curious about this and what
comes up for you as new or triggering or a frustrating and
seeing where that where that might be coming from because
some of the language that we're going to talk about here is
(08:53):
stuff that was formerly really hurtful language to hear at a
certain point in my life and there is you know that aspect of
reclaiming language to and beingable to use something that was
hurtful to find community and tofind some more Liberation out of
that space of hurt and pain has been a really important part of
(09:15):
the Image for me. Yeah, I think I'm just well
you're sharing reflecting on theterm queer in and of itself and
how it was slur. Mmm.
And like I know in a lot of my upbringing was very much used in
that way. Yeah.
And like their Reclamation of the word and there are still
some folks May identify and are within lgbtqia+ communities.
(09:41):
That really don't like the term and some of us in the like yeah,
absolutely. Let's reclaim clear.
And then like the term homosexual, like some folks feel
really seen by that term and some folks are like, actually
know that was like the DSM diagnosis that literally
pathologized our existence and absolutely, I don't align with
that term. So I think even just like,
(10:03):
within the shifts and girls havelanguage.
There's room for these words might feel really icky and
Squishy and like new in like a vulnerable raw and learning new
things weigh. These words might feel really
hurtful and harmful. Awful and like, absolutely or
not. Okay, with me way.
And these words feel more free and flexible and fluid.
Like and even just me category categorizing.
(10:24):
Those three things is like, super limiting, right?
Because they're so. So, so much gray area.
Like there is nothing black and white about queerness exactly.
And I think that I just want to pick up the thread on that word
queer because I felt the same way.
It was a slur growing up for me in the 90s.
Like it was just I didn't want to even let it come out of my
(10:48):
mouth because it felt so ugly tome and as I became more of an
adult and I started to be in queer spaces, I realized the
power of it to bring together everyone in that gray space and
to me, the word queer has been very liberating because it does
not focus on the these differentdimensions.
(11:09):
Although it provides space for all those dimensions and I think
it brings together all of us to be able to talk Talk about it
and be in that space together which I think the the lgbtqia
and the whole alphabet really focuses on those differences
which are important but also there's space between all these
things. And when I think of the word
(11:30):
queer, I'm going to misquote her.
But Bell hooks kind of defines the word queer in a way that
feels good to me as that part ofme which feels at odds with the
rest of the world. And for me it's kind of this
political designation of like here.
In some kind of solidarity that I can have with other folks who
are at odds with the majority culture of the way that it
(11:52):
defines, what is acceptable or normal?
And at the same time, you know, I've gotten to live in other
places where I used the word queer thinking that I am like
totally, this like liberated cool person and that was a
really hurtful thing for me to do because I didn't under the
understand the context of where I was and queer was not
(12:13):
appreciated in those communities.
But that were very much in my understanding, queer, queer
communities, it's just that. This language was, it's not
helpful there. Mmm.
And so, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of tenderness.
And, and care that we have to put into how we speak to each
other around. All this stuff.
(12:34):
Absolutely. And even in what you just said,
the word communities, like that word alone is so important
because I think what often happens.
And what I hear a lot is like, people in the lgbtq+ community
and like, yes, there is like that is a thing and also there
(12:56):
are communities within it, right?
Like queer communities. There are so many facets of the
queer Island that so to speak. And what exists within that that
it's not just like one overall Community, there are so many
intricacies and facets and communities Within in lgbtqia+
(13:17):
community, I think that's my trip and it reminds me of how
those communities have not always Worked well together.
Yeah, and I think it's very, it's important that like we
understand about the history of this.
What I'm calling a queer Community, was never a monolith
(13:38):
and isn't is not a total monolith.
I am a sis male, sis gay, white male, that puts me kind of in
this place where there is a lot of privilege that I'm holding
and I think, In the history of this whole Community.
There has been a disproportionate amount of
(14:01):
support and attention. Put on people like me even
including like the history of the LGBT Center here in Los
Angeles, which was like the gay forget.
I forget their original title but they didn't even want to add
the word lesbian. To the title of their
organization. So, they're like, a bunch of
lesbian activist, came in and like, painted on all their signs
(14:24):
because they're like, hey, we are here too and it's been a lot
of that through the history of this whole community and it's
like making sure that there is enough space for everybody makes
me realize that like, that language is important.
And like, people people get to Define themselves, but we also
have to allow space for people to Define themselves.
(14:45):
Yeah, I think in so So many narratives center around.
Like the least marginalized in amarginalized community and I
think that's where the importance of intersectionality
and holding space for facets of marginalization and privilege in
(15:07):
all humans is absolutely integral.
Right? If we look at the history of
like feminism and white feminism, that completely erased
women of color and was just likewell, At least marginalized
group within a marginalized group like, okay, well, well,
the white women deserve this butthe women of color, don't or
(15:30):
trans exclusionary feminists, right?
Like, well sis women deserve this but trans women don't, you
know, and kind of the history ofthat, right leg, you know,
movements for gay rights, being centered around says gay, white
men and all of the impact of allof that and the Erasure of
(15:51):
certain communities within communities, and the impact of
that. Because it happened, I like it
happens in Time, and Time, and Time, and Time Again in history.
It makes me want to dive into some more definitions.
Because it feels like so much ofthis is really hard to talk
about because we can acknowledgehow complex it all is and I know
(16:14):
from previous conversations thatwe have.
We like to deconstruct these things and I want to hear your
take on The relationship betweengender and sexuality.
As constructs in question, should we should we go through
like the lgbtqia+, acronym? That we've been using, let's do
it really quick. So just to, like, break down the
(16:37):
words in that, acronym the L stands for lesbian, which right
traditionally is mono, sexual, women who are attracted to
women, what's monosexual? - sexual is attracted to one
gender gay men. So it's like I say, gay and now
(16:59):
I'm like, yes but gay is also, you know, was originally and has
no real been reclaimed as a catch-all.
Mhm, kind of similar to queer but gay men.
Right. Like are men who are attracted
to men. So so there's the G.
That's the g b. So the B is for bisexual and
sometimes you'll see the be witha little Plus Next to it to buy
(17:21):
plus identities. They are often misrepresented
and misunderstood and frequentlylumped into categories with
those who hold mono sexual identities, despite having like
vastly different experiences. So bisexuality, a bisexual
identity, refers to someone, whocan be physically, sexually
(17:43):
romantically and, or emotionallyattracted to individuals of
multiple genders. However, this attraction is not
Sorry Lee simultaneous nor is itnecessarily the same type of
attraction or to the same degreeor at the same time.
So, effectively identities that are non monosexual or are pleura
sexual fall within the by plus umbrella other, you know, terms
(18:08):
that and identities that folks hold that live within the by
plus umbrella are also, like pansexual identity and folks who
use Queer as their sexual orientation identifier.
So, a lot of these focus on On sexual identity, sexual,
behaviors sexuality. And through that there is kind
(18:28):
of a through line of gender stuff.
So, these things can be really can be really closely linked,
but they're not the same, right?And so, I think that's the thing
that like, early early on in like 50 60s, 70s, even 80s, when
some queer research, really started.
There was like this, like, lump together.
(18:51):
Of sexuality and gender and the more and more research happens.
The more we hope that these identities are not necessarily
linked identity formation like gender identity formation and
sexuality identity formation often happen together but one
(19:12):
doesn't like necessitate the other or one doesn't necessarily
predict the others probably. A better way to put that if that
makes. A sense.
I think that makes sense, they're closely related.
It's almost impossible to talk about them without, including
some understanding of the other two.
I think they the different dimensions of sexuality, inform
(19:34):
gender and vice versa. But they are not defining each
other, right? But they help us understand
things in relationship. Brings us to the the next part
of the, of the queer. Alphabet.
So to speak the be trans. And so, I think you named
(19:55):
earlier sis, do you want to Define sis?
I defined this as feeling like my gender identity is consistent
with the gender that I was assigned at Birth and the way
that I present in the world. So I am a male that is how I was
(20:17):
raised and socialized. And that feels comfortable for
me. I am as society would expect me
to be in that way. Which feels like a weird way of
saying. I don't know if that's that
doesn't sound like the most academic sort of definition of
it, but that's how it feels to me.
I don't think we have to be academic or supposed to be
(20:38):
messy. What did we say?
That's right. I'm being messy.
Right? Podcast, which I acknowledge is
hard because you are talking to me a person who literally
recertified. Yeah.
So sorry, did I get it right? You're talking about yourself,
so I guess you got great for you, right?
(21:00):
But generally, I guess academically, cisgender is
someone whose gender identity isconsistent with the sex they
were assigned at Birth, right? So, sex being male, female
intersex, they were assigned at Birth.
Then you mentioned right? Like was raised as and
socialized as a boy and man. And so That some folks prefer to
(21:23):
like separate out the term male and female and intersex as a
sex. Identifier and like boy, man
woman girl, non-binary gender fluid as the gender identifiers.
For some folks, those are separate for some folks, they
aren't, it's really just like what feels right for you, huh?
Because part of gender, is thereis a difference between the sex
(21:46):
assigned at Birth gender, genderidentity, gender expression like
All of the, and all of these things are separate from sexual
orientation, which defines rightonce attraction to others,
sexual, physical romantic, and or emotional, which is again,
where we get into this. Like, these things are laying so
closely, linked and are also separate.
(22:07):
Yeah, also separate. I think one of the thing that
you mentioned, which has been key to my understanding and kind
of a jumping off point, was the difference between sex and
gender. we're sex in my understanding is generally a
more biological kind of determination, which I know is
(22:27):
also really confusing because there is very little consensus
about how do you define somebodysexually when actually sex
itself is a spectrum and gender,which is a socially defined
construct, about what it means to be a man or be a woman, which
Which we, as a culture tend to be very binary about things.
(22:52):
Totally and some folks even likedon't use the term gender.
They're just like my identity isbecause gender is socially
constructed. It effectively, almost
everything is socially constructed, right?
Language is socially constructed, right?
And it's interesting. So all of this stuff is feels
very Shifty like we are, we are on not very Solid Ground I think
(23:16):
as human beings we like things to feel very Less complex and
easier to understand because theworld around us is really
complicated. And as we delve closer and
deeper into this type of subject, we realize gender.
And sexuality is as complicated as everything else which makes
(23:37):
our human relationships, feel really complicated?
Yeah, I'm realizing we didn't defend the tea.
Oh yeah, t. Start it.
Let's say we started with this, right.
So when someone is Cisgender, their gender identity matches,
the sex they were assigned at Birth.
So transgender individuals at trans, folks are people whose
gender identity does not align with the sex.
(23:59):
They were assigned at Birth and non-binary is an umbrella term
for individuals who experience, gender outside of the typical
binary categories of, man and woman.
And some there is no similarly to like there's no one way to be
clear. There's no one way to be sis or
trans or non-binary and because we live in a society that Love's
(24:20):
binary categorisation and like, categorization in general, that
gets messy when people don't fitinto or their gender expression
doesn't match what Society has like defined as like, this is
what a man looks like. And tries to force, CIS, and
(24:41):
trans men, to all fit into like this presentation.
I think that's a really important part of it and I think
that that speaks to the very powerful part.
Art of the socialization aspect that there is an expectation of
how to be these, these binary kind of types of people and my
(25:01):
hope for like, what might come of some of this exploding of
complexity is that there is a lot more capacity for
exploration and freedom, and self-expression, and finding
Community with people who are totally, not like us who are
like us. But, Something very important to
them, that is different. And to celebrate that and to
(25:23):
acknowledge all that because I think that there's an
expectation that we're all goingto be the same.
And I think that's why I like the word queer because queer to
me means weird and different andI love that.
And I want to learn more about queerness and weirdness because
I think there is a lot of space there and for creativity and
(25:48):
Liberation and pleasure and all These things that I think are
really important that everyone has a birth rate to yeah.
Yeah. I had so many different thoughts
while you're speaking, I don't know which one to like heck.
There's just so much here, like,dig into.
I'm also thinking of the use of trans as a verb that, like thank
(26:14):
and I'm going to kick myself later for not looking this up
before we recorded this, but Judith Butler.
Okay, that talked about trans and gender.
Mmm and really making like usingtrans as a verb.
Right. That it's not necessarily
following like society's definition and ideas around like
(26:35):
gender and sex assigned at Birthand and what and socialization.
And all of these things which I will also need that like some
non-binary folks identify as trans.
And some don't, some don't feel like the term trans works for
them or resonates for their identity.
I love that. So we'll stick to it.
(26:56):
Like the lgbtqia+, just like in our definitions to start.
I'm sure we will get deeper and deeper in this as we go.
But I stands for intersex and then that a is asexual aromantic
folks, and we got to forgot the queue, okay.
We've been talking about queer. Well, they're really cute so
cute here but there is also questioning questioning.
(27:21):
Yeah, so Q is also one of the letters that different folks
Sometimes it's like use it for folks who are questioning their
sexual orientation and their gender identity.
All of these things, they're like place in the world and like
how they fit into it and Q is also used as queer.
I'm so it depends, it depends. Yeah.
(27:42):
So that's that's the lgbtqia+. Like I said, there are many
other letters and iterations of the like acronym and we'll get
hopefully, and too many of them in our future topics.
I love I love that you bring up Judith Butler it brings to mind
kind of where I hope we can go with this conversation because I
(28:05):
know like we just started to unravel this tapestry of
queerness, lgbtq to Spirit Plus all of this stuff and just
started to just scratch the surface and I'm curious where
like other topics that I think we.
And get into our, you know, diving more into thinkers like
(28:29):
Judith Butler are there are so many important.
I can tie, my mind is like blocking me from trying to name
them all because they're just too many to name but important
folks that have a lot to say whohave shaped discussions around
queerness and all the different iterations of queerness.
I like the idea of talking aboutmedia and representation of
(28:52):
queerness. What do you think we should?
What are some deeper topics we should get into in the future?
I mean there are a lot I think narratives around coming out in
the coming out, process are really important to talk about
the idea of like passing like the The Narrative of like to
(29:13):
queer. Not clear enough.
Definitely like a deep dive intointersectionality, right?
We are talking here about even just like a definition of terms
and haven't even really gone. And to delve into other
intersecting aspects of identityrace culture religion,
neurodivergent whether or not you're able bodied.
(29:36):
I'm like thinking of how very many intersecting aspects of
identity there are and just how deep we can really go in this
and hopefully have some like guest stars because we are both
white folks. I think that's the way important
to name. We have our own particular
experiences in our bodies. How we present to the world and
(29:56):
I think this is too big of a conversation for two people to
have. And so, I think I'm looking
forward to hearing what else comes up.
Who else can join us? Who else can stand in for us at
times or take their own space inthis space?
So thank you for having this very preliminary discussion with
me. Yeah, thank you.
(30:19):
Before we go back into session, we're bringing you to the wall.
Lost memorials project, which isa Unity Health and Wellness
organization. Dedicated to serving Latino
lgbtq and other underserved populations through advocacy
education, and building the nextgeneration of leadership through
the creation of an AIDS Memorialin Lincoln Park, in Los Angeles
(30:41):
as a catalyst for social change.The wall lost memorials has
worked to eradicate stigma and bigotry and create a safer space
in our community for dialogue community building and education
and Prevention Services. Is for 28 years.
The wall lost memorialist continues to serve low-income
and hard to reach communities throughout.
(31:01):
Los Angeles. Educating community members
about HIV and AIDS. Substance Abuse Prevention,
mental health, stigma reduction for the lgbtq transitional age
youth, population, as well as transgender and non-binary
health, and wellness and community building.
For marginalized communities. There are a great organization.
(31:22):
They do. Excellent work.
So please check them out and give them your support.
And one person, we're recommending to decolonize your
social media feed is alok at a local, the mannan on Instagram,
I look is a gender non-conforming author, speaker,
poet comedian, and activist who actively challenges stigma,
(31:42):
heteronormativity and fashion and culture.
Their Instagram is like an internal source of just a
guidance and support for me internally, their book reports.
Each me so much, so definitely check them out and we will see
you next time. When we're out of session,
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