April 16, 2025 • 22 mins
Nick Agnetti and Jason Rowland sit down with two pioneers in the subscription space: John Roman, CEO of BattlBox, and John Haji, co-founder & Head of Partnerships at SubSummit.
From BattlBox’s evolution post-acquisition to SubSummit’s massive growth, the conversation dives into how consumer expectations, economic shifts, and logistics challenges are reshaping the subscription model. The guests share insights on customer retention, the impact of Amazon on buyer behavior, and why retail brands like Footlocker are entering the subscription game.
Tune in for a candid look at what’s working, what’s not, and how to future-proof your subscriber experience in a $3 trillion subscription economy.
John Haji | LinkedIn
John is a subscription guru and a serial entrepreneur with a decade's worth of experience in the subscription space. He co-founded SubSummit in 2016, the first and only conference devoted exclusively to those who work in or alongside the subscription commerce industry. SubSummit connects today's industry leaders, innovators, and partners who are driving the rapid evolution of how consumers discover, buy, and experience new products.
His background in think tanks paired with his entrepreneurial spirit has positioned him for success within the subscription industry. John has a passion for creative thinking, strategy, design, eCommerce, and more. Prior to starting SubSummit, he also co-founded and served as COO of Gentleman's Box, the first premier subscription service for men which was acquired by Rove Companies in 2020.
As a father of three, John balances his professional and personal life with grace and humor. He has been recognized by Crain's Detroit as one of the "40 Under 40" award recipients in 2019 for his outstanding achievements and contributions.
John Roman | LinkedIn
After leading several successful sales organizations in the telecommunications and software space for almost a decade, John began investing in companies predominately in the eCommerce arena. A college friend was launching BattlBox in early 2015 and John knew he had to be involved, so he invested in it, offering advisement in a limited capacity.
BattlBox started to see exponential growth and the demand for John’s time increased. In early 2016, John made the decision to step away from his then sales leadership role with a software company to join the BattlBox team in a full-time capacity. In July 2019, The BattlBox Group acquired Carnivore Club, an artisanal meat subscription box.
BattlBox continued to see exponential growth with the strategy of leading with content and community. This eventually lead to their Netflix original series ‘Southern Survival’ in July 2020.
In October of 2021, BattlBox and Carnivore Club were acquired by Emerge Brands for$18.95M. In April 2023, John lead a group that purchased back BattlBox from Emerge for $7.17M.
John currently serves as Chief Executive Officer for BattlBox.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Like what?
I don't have a retail strategy.
Why would I have a retail strategy?
I can skip past, go collect my$200, not do retail and sell directly
to the consumer from the fromtheir bed.
This is Outside the Box withAscendia usa, a podcast educating
US based brands, marketplacesand e tailers on international shipping
(00:22):
topics and how they can expandtheir global e commerce footprint.
Hey everybody, welcome back toOutside the Box with the Cynia USA
podcast.
Very special episode with acouple of great guests today and
my co host Jason Rowland.
I'd like to introduceeverybody to John Roman and John
Haji.
I've got some excellent biosand intros for these guys and so
(00:44):
John Roman.
Here we go guys.
Ready?
Hang in there.
After leading severalsuccessful sales organizations in
the telecommunications andsoftware space for almost a decade,
John began investing incompanies predominantly in the e
commerce arena.
I know John from battlbox andfrom my involvement with Subsummit
for many years going back now.
John Haji.
(01:05):
What's it been a decade?
Oh yeah, yeah.
So battlbox started to seesome exponential growth in the demand
for John's time increase.
In early 2016 he made thedecision to step away from his then
sales leadership role to jointhe battlbox team in a full time
capacity.
We're going to have John talka little bit about his journey a
little bit further down in theepisode here but.
(01:25):
But I very excited to welcomeJohn Roman to the podcast.
Thank you so much for joining.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Great to see you again, Nick.
Hey, you're very welcome John.
Can't wait to see you nextmonth as well.
All right, we're going toshift over to my very good friend
John Haji who is asubscription guru.
Yes, that's right.
Self proclaimed andobjectively proclaimed serial entrepreneur
(01:47):
with a decade's worth ofexperience in the subscription space.
He co founded Subsummit which,which is still going very strong
in 2016.
The first and only conferencedevoted exclusively to those who
work in or alongside thesubscription e commerce industry
or subscription commerce industry.
I was fortunate enough to be apart of the very first one in Detroit.
Probably one of my favoriteafter parties of all time of any
(02:08):
show I've ever been to.
Actually that was a very good time.
And then John's background inthink tanks paired with his entrepreneurial
spirit has positioned him forsuccess within the subscription industry.
Very passionate for creativethinking and strategy, design, e
commerce and more.
He also co founded and servedas the CEO of Gentleman's Box which
was the first premiersubscription box service for men
(02:31):
which was acquired by RoveCompanies in 2020.
This part of his bio I don'treally like and I've told him about
this, but here we go.
He always says, as a father oftwo, very proud husband though too.
Don't ever forget that.
Okay.
And his professional andpersonal life, with grace and humor
he handles.
He has been recognized here inthe Detroit area by Cranes Detroit
as one of the 40 under 40award recipients in 2019 for his
(02:54):
outstanding achievements and contributions.
So thank you both very muchfor joining and we're very excited
to kind of get this episodeoff and running.
Jason, you got anything youwant to throw in there?
No, just a big thank you againto the Johns for, for coming and
meeting with us today.
John Hodgy.
John Roman, it's great to bewith you.
Really excited to have thisdiscussion about subscription boxes
(03:14):
and not only what companiesface when they're getting out there
and trying to open up, gettheir material out there, but also
what the subscribers and the,and the recipients of these items
have to go through sometimes too.
It can be a little tough.
So it's going to be a great discussion.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
So, so guys, just, you know,you've got the outline and everything.
(03:35):
So again we're going to keepit real conversational, you know,
and just for, for listenersand viewers if you're watching.
Again, our goal here with ourpodcast is to really help educate
you guys on navigating some ofthe complexities associated with
cross border e commerce.
Logistics and subscriptionboxes is a huge part of that business.
I mean as an organization, wepartner with several, you know, many
(03:59):
companies that aresubscription based businesses to
really help them improve thepost purchase experience for their
subscribers when it comes to,you know, the Canadian and international
front.
So I want to kind of just jumpinto, you know, John Roman, can we
start with you and talk aboutwhat you're doing right now, some
current projects and you know,everything going on battlbox.
(04:19):
I know battlbox has gonethrough some transition and if you
just want to give somebackground, that'd be great.
Sure.
So we, yeah, the transition wewere, we were part of a larger parent
company post acquisition, aSPAC publicly traded on the Toronto
exchange in April of 2023.
(04:41):
We, we, we bought the businessback and so it's back in our hands
now.
And you know, the reality is,you know, the consumer, consumer
purchasing behavior has sloweddown a little bit just giving the
current economic situationwe're in looked at the market a Couple
(05:06):
of minutes before this call.
It's not looking great.
And so what we're seeing, youknow, just to oversimplify it, is
the subscription box aspect ofour business.
(05:26):
It's becoming almost not sustainable.
I don't know the future of it.
I think we're a little bitdifferent in the sense that we don't
position ourselves at anypoint in any part of our business
as a subscription box.
We offer a membership now.
The membership is the lion'sshare of the revenue.
(05:47):
It used to be 90%, it was 85%.
This year it will be a tadabove 80% now.
Luckily we've somehow I thinksome of, with our secret sauce that
we have, we've managed for itnot to shrink and we actually showed
(06:09):
some, some growth.
And currently as of right now,it's not growing, it's not shrinking.
It's just kind of like just living.
So the additional revenue thatwe're seeing, this growth that we're
seeing as a business is notcoming from the subscription aspect.
It's coming from one timepurchases, marketplaces.
(06:32):
We've talked about theimportance of multichannel diversification.
I think that's just more truethan it's ever been.
Ever been true.
You would have asked probablyJohn, you would agree with me if
someone would have askedeither of us in 2017, what's yalls
retail strategy?
Like what?
(06:52):
I don't have a retail strategy.
Why would I have a retail strategy?
I can skip past go collect my$200, not do retail and sell directly
to the consumer from their bedon their cell phone.
Like I don't need a retail strategy.
But obviously, you know, timeshave changed.
Okay.
(07:13):
No, I appreciate it.
And also, I mean I think it'sfair to recognize, I mean battlbox
as a brand, right?
I mean Netflix.
I mean you guys have, you havea lot going on, you know and I understand
and I think I do want to comeback to what you said about it.
Not necessarily you were usedthe word shrinkage but customer experience
is changing and I want toprobably we could even get into it
(07:34):
now just because you broughtit up.
But what do you, how do youthink that impacts, you know, in
terms of any volatilityrelated to the post purchase experience?
Because it's a little lighterthan it used to be.
I mean I think it, I think itmatters even more.
Right.
So you know, as, as, as newcustomer acquisition has become more
(07:56):
difficult for the reasons youjust outlined.
I think the reality is, youknow, the, the hard earned dollars
of the wallet that are beingspent There's.
There's a certain level ofexpectations there.
Right.
And you know, love them orhate them, but Amazon, the giant
that it is, has really createda lot of personal behavior, expectations.
(08:23):
What's that?
Yeah, and it's just like, youknow, my wife's a great example.
She very regularly willpurchase two similar things on there
with full expectations ofsending one back.
And I'm like.
I'm like, Colleen, like, youknow, that, that the vendor, not
(08:43):
Amazon, the vendor justcompletely got hosed on that.
They're probably not able tosell the product back.
They had to pay shipping on every.
Every leg of that.
It's going to get shipped backto them.
The reach.
It can't be resold.
Like, Amazon still got theirfees, like they lost money.
But it's a.
But it's, It's a behavior thatAmazon, I don't want to say they
(09:05):
promote it, but to a certainlevel they do.
Right.
Is it fair to say theyencourage it?
They encourage it.
I think that is.
So.
So when you, when you havethat going on, it's.
Yeah, it's sustainable forAmazon to do that because it doesn't.
It doesn't come out of there.
They're part of the squeeze.
(09:25):
Right.
It's on the backs of all thepeople selling on the platform.
So I think when you seebehavior like that and you combo
that with the purse stringstightening, if you will, I think
the expectations are evenhigher than before.
That's, you know, anytimethere's acquisition costs issues,
(09:47):
everybody wants to talk about retention.
Retention is absolutely a partof that.
But a big, big part of thatis, is that onboarding and customer
experience from immediatelyafter the order to all the way into
the journey of the packagecoming to them, honestly, as it continues,
the communication andexperience afterwards.
(10:07):
Do it.
It all matters so much morethan it ever mattered before.
No, that's.
You brought up so many points.
We're going to dive into thatas we go on, but I want to transition
over to John Haji real quick.
Just, John, give us an update.
Give everybody, the viewers,the listeners an update.
What's going on with John Hajiand projects you're working on and
everything else.
(10:27):
Well, to start, I'm gonna haveto update my bio from father of two
to father of three in maybe aweek or so.
So big time.
Congratulations.
That's on the horizon.
So looking forward to that.
Yeah.
You know, right now, the onlything that, you know, are really
focused on within thesubscription space of Summit.
(10:49):
Our event is less than 60 daysaway at the end of May and we are
continuously growing the eventyear over year.
So we're seeing a really nice30, 35% growth from last year to
this year.
And what started off as anevent, which was the largest event
for subscription boxcompanies, has now evolved to the
(11:10):
largest event for consumersubscriptions as a whole.
Across six different verticalsof subscription that be e commerce
and retail brands have somelevel of subscription box.
It could be an auto save,subscribe and save auto replenishment.
Sorry.
Membership loyalty built intothe DNA of their business to your.
Your Netflixes and your Hulu,your streaming subscriptions to your
(11:33):
media publication companieslike Wall Street Journal, New York
Times.
Right.
The.
The gamut's large.
It's anyone from Spotify and FanDuel.
So the nice thing is we'restarting to see the shift that we're
also seeing too is coming fromthe retail brands that are trying
to implement subscription insome capacity.
Is that implementing rewards?
Is that implementing membership?
(11:54):
Footlocker signed up to cometo our event.
Footlocker is not sending youshoes on a recurring basis, but they
want to implement subscriptionin some capacity.
All these folks are talkingabout the common topics at our event.
Right.
They're all dealing withacquisition, they're all dealing
with retention.
They're all looking to improvethe customer experience.
(12:14):
So, you know, subsummit is ourfocus here, is identifying the partners,
the right partners to come tothe event.
Sundia has always been anamazing partner to subsummit.
They're there year over year.
John is an original.
John Roman is an originalalongside Nick that comes to the
event year over year andshares his knowledge with the other
(12:34):
merchants at the event.
And yeah, what we started thisevent to do was to bridge the gap
between the merchants in thespace and the solution providers
that can help them grow and scale.
And we're continuing to dothat and we're loving seeing the
growth in it.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And I think I probably shouldbring up, although I think the crowd
(12:57):
knows at this point, JohnRoman has an incredible bio.
But should we bring up thenumber of awards that battlbox has
received in the Sub Summitspace over the last decade?
I mean, I'm never.
I'm never winning another one.
So that's why.
Unless.
Unless I.
Unless I start a new company.
Oh, we're done.
Battlbox is done.
(13:17):
Battlbox can't win anymore.
Oh, okay, folks.
That's how many he's got.
Okay.
That's.
That's when you know it's apretty big deal.
Nine.
Nine.
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Is a big influencer in thesubscription space.
So they were all welldeserved, well earned.
But yeah, I mean, not that,not that Roman can't win anything
(13:39):
moving forward.
Is that I can still win just alot of the awards that I've previously
won.
Those categories no longer exist.
Exactly.
Yeah.
There's been a shift in theway that we run the award ceremony
in the after party.
Something completely different.
You'll see this year as wellas we have like a headliner act.
It's completely different.
Yeah, I saw a sneak peek.
(14:01):
It's exciting.
It is exciting.
Okay, guys, I'm going totransition into some market statistics.
Jason's got some stuff to talkabout when it comes to post purchase
with visibility estimated, youknow, dates of arrival and just,
you know, forecasting andthings like that.
So let's talk about some, somemarket statistics and then we can
kind of talk on that for alittle bit.
So.
So information that I was ableto pull said the subscription economy
(14:25):
anticipated to reach avaluation of $3 trillion in 2025.
Is that John, Is that haji.
Is that, is that number accurate?
I mean, there's multiplesources that I was able to find that
3 trillion.
Yeah, that's accurate.
And you have to think it's not.
Again, not that it's a stigma,but like a lot of people, even to
this day, when I haveconversations with folks and they
(14:45):
talk subscription, I thinkthey think like, right, a subscription
box.
Right.
Subscribe so much more.
Right.
So when you think ofeverything that encompasses and every
vertical that encompasses.
Yeah, that number is accurate.
You've got to think anotherbig thing of it is.
So to John's point, theNetflixes and the Amazon Primes,
(15:07):
those are all in that category.
And if you have either ofthose, you've seen some major price
hikes going.
On to the 3 trillion.
You're right.
So the next part.
So digital subscriptionscontributing over 40% of that number,
which is wildly impressive.
Expansion is driven byincreasing consumer demand for convenience
and personalized experiences.
(15:28):
Not that we're here to talkabout digital subscriptions, but
I think that would just beinteresting to learn more about that
alone.
And then here's a.
Did you know.
Okay, little guessing game foryou too.
What year was the very firstbook subscription traced back to?
I'm going to go.
I'm not going to give a year,but I'm going to say five decades
ago.
(15:48):
No, wait, we're in 2020, sothat'd be the 70s.
So.
Oh, I might say somewhere inthe, in the, in the early, like the
forties.
Yeah, you're, you're, you're alittle off.
We're, I'm, I'm thinking youneed to check your century.
No, this book subscriptiontraced back to.
I'm just going to give it the 1610s.
1610s.
(16:08):
Okay.
John, don't be upset.
John Haji, don't be upset.
Okay, so here we go.
All right.
Thanks for the knowledge.
On me.
It's a.
Did you know, you know, let'skeep it, keep it fun.
All right.
So I thought too.
And then in third place, whenit came down to like revenue tiers,
we have subscription ecommerce or subscription boxes in
(16:30):
that space.
Right.
And then between 2012 and2018, which you both know very well,
subscription businesses grewby more than 300%, notably five times
more in terms of.
Was over five times revenuegenerated by the S&P 500 companies
during the same period.
Which is.
Wow.
Which is really wild.
Right.
Top categories currentlylisted include beauty and personal
(16:52):
care, food and beverage,health and wellness and home and
pet.
I'm going to quickly go intomarket statistics and then Jason,
do you want to take it on postpurchase after that?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
So here's what's importantthough for listeners and viewers
too.
So there's a lot going on inthe global space.
We will touch on tariffs and Iknow that's such a huge hot topic.
It has to be right now.
(17:14):
It's vital and it's so muchimpact to, to what we do, to what
the subscription businessesdo, to what anybody in global commerce
and global e commerce do.
So we will touch on that.
But it's important to notethat this is still a very huge world
with, with massive revenueopportunities outside of the United
States.
Right.
So, so we're talking from USbased perspective.
(17:36):
Ex US or shipments goingoutside to consumers outside.
So we'll talk a little bitabout, just briefly touch on Canada,
uk, Australia and Mexico.
And then Jason's going to getinto specifically with subscription,
some of the post purchasestuff we were talking about.
So Canada E commerce marketprojected to reach 72.15 billion
and that's in USD in 2025 withan annual expected growth rate of
(18:01):
8 point about 9%.
8.85%.
That's pretty good.
We go over to the UK which isthe third largest e commerce market
in the world behind the US and China.
Revenue in the UK e commercemarket projected to reach 142 billion
with a little bit smaller growth.
So 7%.
Australia at 42 billion.
(18:22):
And then we're also looking atif you look at Mexico, here's the
number that got me on Mexicoand we're going to touch on Mexico.
Although people think ofshipping to Mexico and typically
it's not great thoughts but,but we're trying to reword, we're
working diligently to reframe that.
But if you look at neighborsto the south of Mexico, E commerce
markets projected to reach 44billion in 2025 with an annual growth
(18:42):
rate of 9 point.
But this is the largest numberof users which is expected to surpass
118 million by 2029.
And that's greater thanCanada, UK and Australia.
And if we look at Mexico Cityalone, it's home to approximately
a little over 22 millionpeople estimated.
Right.
So it's a massive market andsomething that we see specifically,
(19:06):
and I think many differentlogisticians they see as a huge growth
area for years to come isgoing to be Central and South America.
All I have a question here.
Just pure naivety.
I don't know if anybody knowsit on the call like so to see the
growth now, knowing that thepopulation exists to support it previously,
(19:28):
do you think it's just likethey were a lagger in adopting, just
buying stuff on the computerin your phone and now they're embracing
it?
Is it as simple as that?
I don't have an exact answerto that, but I would, I would, based
on what I'm reading, I wouldsay that's certainly a huge part
of it for sure.
Probably more of a lateadopter when it comes to, I mean
(19:51):
if you look at, you know, Ithink really it was like 1989, 1990s
when, when we had our firstonline store somewhere here in the
U.S.
right.
Something like that.
I mean, and we're far, we'refar removed from that now.
Although it's not that longago but, but Mexico is definitely,
and Jason even works a littlebit closer more closely with our,
with our Mexico team directlycould probably speak to that even
(20:12):
further.
Yeah, I think a little bit ofit though is, is not only the access
to or the willingness of themarket to participate in that transaction,
but more of also them nowhaving access to it.
It's, it's.
If you think about going, yougo to Europe or some other countries
and you try to log in to oneof your American websites that says
no, you can't access that here.
So I think a lot of what we'reseeing though too is now that through
(20:35):
other third party vendors forInternet access and for able people
having the ability to accessmore of these sites to make the purchase
orders to be a participant inthat transaction.
That has begun to open thedoors are there are opening a little
bit more which is allowingpeople who have wanted to participate
in these transactions, all ofa sudden now they have access to
(20:57):
and they have the ability todo it.
So I think it's a little bit of.
Yeah, people are, are morewilling to, to put their money out
there.
Right.
Because there was a lot ofmistrust with foreign transactions
and, and that kind of stufffrom, from that market typically
before and now not only dothey have access, but they have the
willingness and they are, aredoing it and obviously in more every
(21:19):
year.
So we're seeing great growthin those kinds of markets.
So yeah, I think there's a lotof things that play into it.
Sounds like both, both sidesare leaning in for sure.
And you know, in perspectivebefore we switch over real quick,
if you look at like we talkedabout Canada, UK, Australia and then
Mexico.
So Canada expected users by2029, 33 million.
(21:40):
Again going back to Mexico, wewere at almost 120 million.
You know what I mean?
So and you look at UK expectedamount to be just under 63 million
by 2029 and Australia was 23.1.
I mean Mexico is like, I meanthat's shooting to the moon right
there.
So I see huge growth areapotential at least especially we
(22:00):
look at central and then, youknow, we're not even talking about
South America.
So.
All right, Jason, if you wantto transition over to, you know,
post purchase experience, talkabout visibility, those types of
things.
Thank you for listening to theoutside of the box with the Sending
you USA podcast.
We're continuing thisdiscussion on subscription Boxes
with our special guest JohnHaji and John Roman on April 30.
Share, subscribe and downloadour podcast to learn more about today's
(22:24):
topic or for a freeconsultation, email us at ecommerce
USA@ascendia.com.
come back for more insightfuldiscussions on ecommerce shipping
to Canada, Mexico and worldwide.
Like what?
I don't have a retail strategy.
Why would I have a retail strategy?
I can skip past, go collect my$200, not do retail and sell directly
to the consumer from the fromtheir bed.
This is Outside the Box withAscendia usa, a podcast educating
US based brands, marketplacesand e tailers on international shipping
(00:22):
topics and how they can expandtheir global e commerce footprint.
Hey everybody, welcome back toOutside the Box with the Cynia USA
podcast.
Very special episode with acouple of great guests today and
my co host Jason Rowland.
I'd like to introduceeverybody to John Roman and John
Haji.
I've got some excellent biosand intros for these guys and so
(00:44):
John Roman.
Here we go guys.
Ready?
Hang in there.
After leading severalsuccessful sales organizations in
the telecommunications andsoftware space for almost a decade,
John began investing incompanies predominantly in the e
commerce arena.
I know John from battlbox andfrom my involvement with Subsummit
for many years going back now.
John Haji.
(01:05):
What's it been a decade?
Oh yeah, yeah.
So battlbox started to seesome exponential growth in the demand
for John's time increase.
In early 2016 he made thedecision to step away from his then
sales leadership role to jointhe battlbox team in a full time
capacity.
We're going to have John talka little bit about his journey a
little bit further down in theepisode here but.
(01:25):
But I very excited to welcomeJohn Roman to the podcast.
Thank you so much for joining.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Great to see you again, Nick.
Hey, you're very welcome John.
Can't wait to see you nextmonth as well.
All right, we're going toshift over to my very good friend
John Haji who is asubscription guru.
Yes, that's right.
Self proclaimed andobjectively proclaimed serial entrepreneur
(01:47):
with a decade's worth ofexperience in the subscription space.
He co founded Subsummit which,which is still going very strong
in 2016.
The first and only conferencedevoted exclusively to those who
work in or alongside thesubscription e commerce industry
or subscription commerce industry.
I was fortunate enough to be apart of the very first one in Detroit.
Probably one of my favoriteafter parties of all time of any
(02:08):
show I've ever been to.
Actually that was a very good time.
And then John's background inthink tanks paired with his entrepreneurial
spirit has positioned him forsuccess within the subscription industry.
Very passionate for creativethinking and strategy, design, e
commerce and more.
He also co founded and servedas the CEO of Gentleman's Box which
was the first premiersubscription box service for men
(02:31):
which was acquired by RoveCompanies in 2020.
This part of his bio I don'treally like and I've told him about
this, but here we go.
He always says, as a father oftwo, very proud husband though too.
Don't ever forget that.
Okay.
And his professional andpersonal life, with grace and humor
he handles.
He has been recognized here inthe Detroit area by Cranes Detroit
as one of the 40 under 40award recipients in 2019 for his
(02:54):
outstanding achievements and contributions.
So thank you both very muchfor joining and we're very excited
to kind of get this episodeoff and running.
Jason, you got anything youwant to throw in there?
No, just a big thank you againto the Johns for, for coming and
meeting with us today.
John Hodgy.
John Roman, it's great to bewith you.
Really excited to have thisdiscussion about subscription boxes
(03:14):
and not only what companiesface when they're getting out there
and trying to open up, gettheir material out there, but also
what the subscribers and the,and the recipients of these items
have to go through sometimes too.
It can be a little tough.
So it's going to be a great discussion.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
So, so guys, just, you know,you've got the outline and everything.
(03:35):
So again we're going to keepit real conversational, you know,
and just for, for listenersand viewers if you're watching.
Again, our goal here with ourpodcast is to really help educate
you guys on navigating some ofthe complexities associated with
cross border e commerce.
Logistics and subscriptionboxes is a huge part of that business.
I mean as an organization, wepartner with several, you know, many
(03:59):
companies that aresubscription based businesses to
really help them improve thepost purchase experience for their
subscribers when it comes to,you know, the Canadian and international
front.
So I want to kind of just jumpinto, you know, John Roman, can we
start with you and talk aboutwhat you're doing right now, some
current projects and you know,everything going on battlbox.
(04:19):
I know battlbox has gonethrough some transition and if you
just want to give somebackground, that'd be great.
Sure.
So we, yeah, the transition wewere, we were part of a larger parent
company post acquisition, aSPAC publicly traded on the Toronto
exchange in April of 2023.
(04:41):
We, we, we bought the businessback and so it's back in our hands
now.
And you know, the reality is,you know, the consumer, consumer
purchasing behavior has sloweddown a little bit just giving the
current economic situationwe're in looked at the market a Couple
(05:06):
of minutes before this call.
It's not looking great.
And so what we're seeing, youknow, just to oversimplify it, is
the subscription box aspect ofour business.
(05:26):
It's becoming almost not sustainable.
I don't know the future of it.
I think we're a little bitdifferent in the sense that we don't
position ourselves at anypoint in any part of our business
as a subscription box.
We offer a membership now.
The membership is the lion'sshare of the revenue.
(05:47):
It used to be 90%, it was 85%.
This year it will be a tadabove 80% now.
Luckily we've somehow I thinksome of, with our secret sauce that
we have, we've managed for itnot to shrink and we actually showed
(06:09):
some, some growth.
And currently as of right now,it's not growing, it's not shrinking.
It's just kind of like just living.
So the additional revenue thatwe're seeing, this growth that we're
seeing as a business is notcoming from the subscription aspect.
It's coming from one timepurchases, marketplaces.
(06:32):
We've talked about theimportance of multichannel diversification.
I think that's just more truethan it's ever been.
Ever been true.
You would have asked probablyJohn, you would agree with me if
someone would have askedeither of us in 2017, what's yalls
retail strategy?
Like what?
(06:52):
I don't have a retail strategy.
Why would I have a retail strategy?
I can skip past go collect my$200, not do retail and sell directly
to the consumer from their bedon their cell phone.
Like I don't need a retail strategy.
But obviously, you know, timeshave changed.
Okay.
(07:13):
No, I appreciate it.
And also, I mean I think it'sfair to recognize, I mean battlbox
as a brand, right?
I mean Netflix.
I mean you guys have, you havea lot going on, you know and I understand
and I think I do want to comeback to what you said about it.
Not necessarily you were usedthe word shrinkage but customer experience
is changing and I want toprobably we could even get into it
(07:34):
now just because you broughtit up.
But what do you, how do youthink that impacts, you know, in
terms of any volatilityrelated to the post purchase experience?
Because it's a little lighterthan it used to be.
I mean I think it, I think itmatters even more.
Right.
So you know, as, as, as newcustomer acquisition has become more
(07:56):
difficult for the reasons youjust outlined.
I think the reality is, youknow, the, the hard earned dollars
of the wallet that are beingspent There's.
There's a certain level ofexpectations there.
Right.
And you know, love them orhate them, but Amazon, the giant
that it is, has really createda lot of personal behavior, expectations.
(08:23):
What's that?
Yeah, and it's just like, youknow, my wife's a great example.
She very regularly willpurchase two similar things on there
with full expectations ofsending one back.
And I'm like.
I'm like, Colleen, like, youknow, that, that the vendor, not
(08:43):
Amazon, the vendor justcompletely got hosed on that.
They're probably not able tosell the product back.
They had to pay shipping on every.
Every leg of that.
It's going to get shipped backto them.
The reach.
It can't be resold.
Like, Amazon still got theirfees, like they lost money.
But it's a.
But it's, It's a behavior thatAmazon, I don't want to say they
(09:05):
promote it, but to a certainlevel they do.
Right.
Is it fair to say theyencourage it?
They encourage it.
I think that is.
So.
So when you, when you havethat going on, it's.
Yeah, it's sustainable forAmazon to do that because it doesn't.
It doesn't come out of there.
They're part of the squeeze.
(09:25):
Right.
It's on the backs of all thepeople selling on the platform.
So I think when you seebehavior like that and you combo
that with the purse stringstightening, if you will, I think
the expectations are evenhigher than before.
That's, you know, anytimethere's acquisition costs issues,
(09:47):
everybody wants to talk about retention.
Retention is absolutely a partof that.
But a big, big part of thatis, is that onboarding and customer
experience from immediatelyafter the order to all the way into
the journey of the packagecoming to them, honestly, as it continues,
the communication andexperience afterwards.
(10:07):
Do it.
It all matters so much morethan it ever mattered before.
No, that's.
You brought up so many points.
We're going to dive into thatas we go on, but I want to transition
over to John Haji real quick.
Just, John, give us an update.
Give everybody, the viewers,the listeners an update.
What's going on with John Hajiand projects you're working on and
everything else.
(10:27):
Well, to start, I'm gonna haveto update my bio from father of two
to father of three in maybe aweek or so.
So big time.
Congratulations.
That's on the horizon.
So looking forward to that.
Yeah.
You know, right now, the onlything that, you know, are really
focused on within thesubscription space of Summit.
(10:49):
Our event is less than 60 daysaway at the end of May and we are
continuously growing the eventyear over year.
So we're seeing a really nice30, 35% growth from last year to
this year.
And what started off as anevent, which was the largest event
for subscription boxcompanies, has now evolved to the
(11:10):
largest event for consumersubscriptions as a whole.
Across six different verticalsof subscription that be e commerce
and retail brands have somelevel of subscription box.
It could be an auto save,subscribe and save auto replenishment.
Sorry.
Membership loyalty built intothe DNA of their business to your.
Your Netflixes and your Hulu,your streaming subscriptions to your
(11:33):
media publication companieslike Wall Street Journal, New York
Times.
Right.
The.
The gamut's large.
It's anyone from Spotify and FanDuel.
So the nice thing is we'restarting to see the shift that we're
also seeing too is coming fromthe retail brands that are trying
to implement subscription insome capacity.
Is that implementing rewards?
Is that implementing membership?
(11:54):
Footlocker signed up to cometo our event.
Footlocker is not sending youshoes on a recurring basis, but they
want to implement subscriptionin some capacity.
All these folks are talkingabout the common topics at our event.
Right.
They're all dealing withacquisition, they're all dealing
with retention.
They're all looking to improvethe customer experience.
(12:14):
So, you know, subsummit is ourfocus here, is identifying the partners,
the right partners to come tothe event.
Sundia has always been anamazing partner to subsummit.
They're there year over year.
John is an original.
John Roman is an originalalongside Nick that comes to the
event year over year andshares his knowledge with the other
(12:34):
merchants at the event.
And yeah, what we started thisevent to do was to bridge the gap
between the merchants in thespace and the solution providers
that can help them grow and scale.
And we're continuing to dothat and we're loving seeing the
growth in it.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And I think I probably shouldbring up, although I think the crowd
(12:57):
knows at this point, JohnRoman has an incredible bio.
But should we bring up thenumber of awards that battlbox has
received in the Sub Summitspace over the last decade?
I mean, I'm never.
I'm never winning another one.
So that's why.
Unless.
Unless I.
Unless I start a new company.
Oh, we're done.
Battlbox is done.
(13:17):
Battlbox can't win anymore.
Oh, okay, folks.
That's how many he's got.
Okay.
That's.
That's when you know it's apretty big deal.
Nine.
Nine.
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Is a big influencer in thesubscription space.
So they were all welldeserved, well earned.
But yeah, I mean, not that,not that Roman can't win anything
(13:39):
moving forward.
Is that I can still win just alot of the awards that I've previously
won.
Those categories no longer exist.
Exactly.
Yeah.
There's been a shift in theway that we run the award ceremony
in the after party.
Something completely different.
You'll see this year as wellas we have like a headliner act.
It's completely different.
Yeah, I saw a sneak peek.
(14:01):
It's exciting.
It is exciting.
Okay, guys, I'm going totransition into some market statistics.
Jason's got some stuff to talkabout when it comes to post purchase
with visibility estimated, youknow, dates of arrival and just,
you know, forecasting andthings like that.
So let's talk about some, somemarket statistics and then we can
kind of talk on that for alittle bit.
So.
So information that I was ableto pull said the subscription economy
(14:25):
anticipated to reach avaluation of $3 trillion in 2025.
Is that John, Is that haji.
Is that, is that number accurate?
I mean, there's multiplesources that I was able to find that
3 trillion.
Yeah, that's accurate.
And you have to think it's not.
Again, not that it's a stigma,but like a lot of people, even to
this day, when I haveconversations with folks and they
(14:45):
talk subscription, I thinkthey think like, right, a subscription
box.
Right.
Subscribe so much more.
Right.
So when you think ofeverything that encompasses and every
vertical that encompasses.
Yeah, that number is accurate.
You've got to think anotherbig thing of it is.
So to John's point, theNetflixes and the Amazon Primes,
(15:07):
those are all in that category.
And if you have either ofthose, you've seen some major price
hikes going.
On to the 3 trillion.
You're right.
So the next part.
So digital subscriptionscontributing over 40% of that number,
which is wildly impressive.
Expansion is driven byincreasing consumer demand for convenience
and personalized experiences.
(15:28):
Not that we're here to talkabout digital subscriptions, but
I think that would just beinteresting to learn more about that
alone.
And then here's a.
Did you know.
Okay, little guessing game foryou too.
What year was the very firstbook subscription traced back to?
I'm going to go.
I'm not going to give a year,but I'm going to say five decades
ago.
(15:48):
No, wait, we're in 2020, sothat'd be the 70s.
So.
Oh, I might say somewhere inthe, in the, in the early, like the
forties.
Yeah, you're, you're, you're alittle off.
We're, I'm, I'm thinking youneed to check your century.
No, this book subscriptiontraced back to.
I'm just going to give it the 1610s.
1610s.
(16:08):
Okay.
John, don't be upset.
John Haji, don't be upset.
Okay, so here we go.
All right.
Thanks for the knowledge.
On me.
It's a.
Did you know, you know, let'skeep it, keep it fun.
All right.
So I thought too.
And then in third place, whenit came down to like revenue tiers,
we have subscription ecommerce or subscription boxes in
(16:30):
that space.
Right.
And then between 2012 and2018, which you both know very well,
subscription businesses grewby more than 300%, notably five times
more in terms of.
Was over five times revenuegenerated by the S&P 500 companies
during the same period.
Which is.
Wow.
Which is really wild.
Right.
Top categories currentlylisted include beauty and personal
(16:52):
care, food and beverage,health and wellness and home and
pet.
I'm going to quickly go intomarket statistics and then Jason,
do you want to take it on postpurchase after that?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
So here's what's importantthough for listeners and viewers
too.
So there's a lot going on inthe global space.
We will touch on tariffs and Iknow that's such a huge hot topic.
It has to be right now.
(17:14):
It's vital and it's so muchimpact to, to what we do, to what
the subscription businessesdo, to what anybody in global commerce
and global e commerce do.
So we will touch on that.
But it's important to notethat this is still a very huge world
with, with massive revenueopportunities outside of the United
States.
Right.
So, so we're talking from USbased perspective.
(17:36):
Ex US or shipments goingoutside to consumers outside.
So we'll talk a little bitabout, just briefly touch on Canada,
uk, Australia and Mexico.
And then Jason's going to getinto specifically with subscription,
some of the post purchasestuff we were talking about.
So Canada E commerce marketprojected to reach 72.15 billion
and that's in USD in 2025 withan annual expected growth rate of
(18:01):
8 point about 9%.
8.85%.
That's pretty good.
We go over to the UK which isthe third largest e commerce market
in the world behind the US and China.
Revenue in the UK e commercemarket projected to reach 142 billion
with a little bit smaller growth.
So 7%.
Australia at 42 billion.
(18:22):
And then we're also looking atif you look at Mexico, here's the
number that got me on Mexicoand we're going to touch on Mexico.
Although people think ofshipping to Mexico and typically
it's not great thoughts but,but we're trying to reword, we're
working diligently to reframe that.
But if you look at neighborsto the south of Mexico, E commerce
markets projected to reach 44billion in 2025 with an annual growth
(18:42):
rate of 9 point.
But this is the largest numberof users which is expected to surpass
118 million by 2029.
And that's greater thanCanada, UK and Australia.
And if we look at Mexico Cityalone, it's home to approximately
a little over 22 millionpeople estimated.
Right.
So it's a massive market andsomething that we see specifically,
(19:06):
and I think many differentlogisticians they see as a huge growth
area for years to come isgoing to be Central and South America.
All I have a question here.
Just pure naivety.
I don't know if anybody knowsit on the call like so to see the
growth now, knowing that thepopulation exists to support it previously,
(19:28):
do you think it's just likethey were a lagger in adopting, just
buying stuff on the computerin your phone and now they're embracing
it?
Is it as simple as that?
I don't have an exact answerto that, but I would, I would, based
on what I'm reading, I wouldsay that's certainly a huge part
of it for sure.
Probably more of a lateadopter when it comes to, I mean
(19:51):
if you look at, you know, Ithink really it was like 1989, 1990s
when, when we had our firstonline store somewhere here in the
U.S.
right.
Something like that.
I mean, and we're far, we'refar removed from that now.
Although it's not that longago but, but Mexico is definitely,
and Jason even works a littlebit closer more closely with our,
with our Mexico team directlycould probably speak to that even
(20:12):
further.
Yeah, I think a little bit ofit though is, is not only the access
to or the willingness of themarket to participate in that transaction,
but more of also them nowhaving access to it.
It's, it's.
If you think about going, yougo to Europe or some other countries
and you try to log in to oneof your American websites that says
no, you can't access that here.
So I think a lot of what we'reseeing though too is now that through
(20:35):
other third party vendors forInternet access and for able people
having the ability to accessmore of these sites to make the purchase
orders to be a participant inthat transaction.
That has begun to open thedoors are there are opening a little
bit more which is allowingpeople who have wanted to participate
in these transactions, all ofa sudden now they have access to
(20:57):
and they have the ability todo it.
So I think it's a little bit of.
Yeah, people are, are morewilling to, to put their money out
there.
Right.
Because there was a lot ofmistrust with foreign transactions
and, and that kind of stufffrom, from that market typically
before and now not only dothey have access, but they have the
willingness and they are, aredoing it and obviously in more every
(21:19):
year.
So we're seeing great growthin those kinds of markets.
So yeah, I think there's a lotof things that play into it.
Sounds like both, both sidesare leaning in for sure.
And you know, in perspectivebefore we switch over real quick,
if you look at like we talkedabout Canada, UK, Australia and then
Mexico.
So Canada expected users by2029, 33 million.
(21:40):
Again going back to Mexico, wewere at almost 120 million.
You know what I mean?
So and you look at UK expectedamount to be just under 63 million
by 2029 and Australia was 23.1.
I mean Mexico is like, I meanthat's shooting to the moon right
there.
So I see huge growth areapotential at least especially we
(22:00):
look at central and then, youknow, we're not even talking about
South America.
So.
All right, Jason, if you wantto transition over to, you know,
post purchase experience, talkabout visibility, those types of
things.
Thank you for listening to theoutside of the box with the Sending
you USA podcast.
We're continuing thisdiscussion on subscription Boxes
with our special guest JohnHaji and John Roman on April 30.
Share, subscribe and downloadour podcast to learn more about today's
(22:24):
topic or for a freeconsultation, email us at ecommerce
USA@ascendia.com.
come back for more insightfuldiscussions on ecommerce shipping
to Canada, Mexico and worldwide.
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