Ever felt like saying “no” could cost you love, approval—or even your sense of safety?
If you were raised to be a “good girl” and still find yourself overwhelmed by the need to please others, my conversation with coach Sara Fisk will speak directly to you. It unpacks why people-pleasing feels so hard to break, even when it’s hurting you—and why you’re not alone in that struggle.
In this episode:
- You’ll learn how your early survival instincts wired you for people-pleasing—and how to begin rewiring.
- You'll discover the subtle but powerful difference between conscious compromise and self-abandonment.
- You'll get practical, low-stakes strategies to start building the emotional muscle of saying “no” without guilt.
Press play now to learn how to stop abandoning yourself and start honoring your own voice—one small, courageous choice at a time.
Featured on the podcast
The Ex-Good Girl Podcast
Sara Fisk Coaching
Stop People Pleasing Facebook group
Connect with Sara on Instagram
Wondering why you're overwhelmed? Take my "why am I overwhelmed" quiz to find out the source of your overwhelm, and what to do about it.
Send Me a Message - Have a question, comment, or just want to say hi? Message me here, I'd love to chat!
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Life can be overwhelming, but on this podcast, you'll discover practical strategies to overcome overwhelm, imposter syndrome, and negative self-talk, manage time effectively, set boundaries, and stay productive in high-stress jobs—all while learning how to say no and prioritize self-care on the Overwhelmed Worki...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara Fisk (00:00):
I was a 40-year-old woman who was still going to
church because I was afraid ofdisappointing my parents.
Michelle Gauthier (00:10):
You're listening to Overwhelmed Working
Woman, the podcast that helpsyou be more calm and more
productive by doing less.
I'm your host, MichelleGauthier, a former Overwhelmed
Working Woman and current lifecoach.
On this show, we unpack thestress and pressure that today's
working woman experiences andin each episode you'll get a
strategy to bring more calm,ease and relaxation to your life
(00:34):
.
Hi, friend, thanks for joiningtoday.
This is going to be a greatepisode about one of my favorite
topics, which ispeople-pleasing.
Today I'm talking to Sara Fisk,who is the host of the Ex-Good
Girl podcast.
I absolutely love the name ofthat podcast, isn't it great?
Because, basically, if you're agood girl quote-unquote you're
(00:55):
sort of forced to be apeople-pleaser by society.
Today, when you listen, you'regoing to learn some new
information aboutpeople-pleasing why
people-pleasing feels sofamiliar and comfortable, and
how that keeps you stuck, how tostop abandoning your own needs.
I think that is such a good wayto explain exactly what we do
when we people please.
We just abandon what weactually need for what other
(01:17):
people want.
And, finally, a simple strategythat's geared toward building
the muscle of saying no withoutthe guilt part.
Just a reminder that April isour celebration month for the
two-year anniversary ofOverwhelmed Working Woman and I
am still collecting voice memosfrom listeners, where you tell
me your name and where you'refrom your favorite part about
(01:38):
the podcast and then you ask mea question.
I have received so many greatquestions so far, but there are
so many more that could be asked, so the link is in the show
notes.
It's really easy you just clickon a button, speak, you have a
chance to redo it if you don'tlike it and then submit it to me
.
I would love to hear from you.
Also.
Before we get into the episode,I want to tell you when you
(01:59):
listen to this interview, youmight notice that my audio is
kind of terrible.
Sarah's sounds great, butsomething was wrong with my
microphone and I didn't know itand I did the whole interview
and the interview is so goodthat I didn't want to not use
this recording.
So we have edited it to thebest of our ability, but if it
sounds kind of crappy, that iswhy I had to really embrace and
(02:20):
practice what I preach.
We love to do A plus work, butsometimes we have to do B minus
work and just live with thatbecause we got it done.
So I'm putting this podcastinto the A plus content but B
minus on my audio.
Thanks for hanging in there withme.
Hey, Sara, thanks for joiningus today.
Great to have you.
(02:41):
Oh, I'm so glad to be here.
I'm excited to have you becauseyou're an expert on
people-pleasing.
We talk about people-pleasing alot on this podcast One of my
favorite topics, because I usedto be excellent at it, me too.
Yeah, tell us a little bitabout your story and how you
were an ex-good girl.
(03:02):
That's the name of your podcast, correct, that's?
Sara Fisk (03:05):
it.
Yeah, it's the Ex-Good GirlPodcast.
And here's what's funny is thateven before I started doing
that podcast, I thought of thename, and the name sounded so
scandalous to me it took me awhole year to like really own it
.
That that was what I wanted toname my podcast, which just
(03:26):
indicate how deeply I wasinvested in people thinking I
was a good girl, because if I'mgoing to call myself the ex-good
girl, then that means somethingright.
It implies something yeah,totally, totally.
Michelle Gauthier (03:42):
Oh my gosh.
Well, tell us how you got here,Like how did you get to be a
good girl and how did you get tobe an ex good girl?
Sara Fisk (03:51):
Well, all of us.
If you are socialized as awoman, you are a good girl.
You have been taught that thereare certain rules that you need
to follow so that people thinkyou are kind and good and nice
and sweet.
And it's even a little morecomplex than that because, if
(04:16):
you want to get to like how weall become people pleasers if we
zoom way out, every singlehuman that comes into this world
is utterly dependent on the bigpeople in their lives, and it
is a survival technique thatevery baby is born with that
they have to win the care andaffection of those bigger, more
(04:41):
capable humans, otherwise theydie.
And so babies cry and they seethat somebody comes and helps
them, and that's the first kindof connection that is made in a
baby's brain.
Is that, oh, I cry andsomething happens.
And so they keep doing that andrealize, oh, I like this, like
snuggle that I get, I like mydiaper being changed, I like
(05:04):
being fed.
And then they keep growing andthey realize that there are more
things that they can do to winmore care and affection.
I have five kids, I think.
Do you have children as well?
Yes, I have two kids, okay, sowhen they were little and they
started smiling back at you.
What did you do?
Michelle Gauthier (05:23):
Yeah, smiled and gave them everything they
wanted.
Oh my gosh, they're so cute.
Sara Fisk (05:29):
Right.
And then they get more hugs andmore snuggles, and so that
connection is made oh, they likethat, they like that.
And I get a positive response.
And so baby smiles more andlearns to wave and learns to say
hi and learns to say mommy anddaddy.
And then they start collectinginformation on the opposite side
of that, which is oh, there aresome things I do that they
(05:50):
don't like.
I remember sitting with mydaughter on a chair and she was
playing around with her handsand kind of testing the limits,
and she slapped my face and Igrabbed her hand and I pushed
her away from my body and I saidno, and she could tell by the
tone of my voice and how myeyebrows went down and how I,
like, physically removed herfrom me, that I didn't like that
(06:13):
.
And of course she dissolvesinto tears and cries and cries
and cries because she has nowbeen punished for something that
she didn't know, she hadn'tmade the connection yet that
that was quote unquote bad.
And so we grow up collectingall of that information.
This is what they like, this iswhat gets me rewarded and this
is what they don't like, this iswhat gets me punished, and for
(06:36):
the first part of our life thatis appropriate.
That's what we have to do toensure that we have the care and
affection of those big people.
The problem is, as we grow, wecan take better care of
ourselves.
We become adults, we have ourown preferences, we have our own
desires that we want for ourown lives, but no one ever
(06:59):
teaches us how to not peopleplease.
And that is kind of where Icome in, because I was very
invested in being liked, in myparents being proud of me in
doing the things that would makemy community think that I was
smart and capable and hopeful,and a lot of this played out for
(07:24):
me in my religious organization.
I was raised in a veryconservative religious
denomination and leaving wasseen as something really bad.
And so it's.
I say it kind of is a joke, butit's kind of not a joke.
I was a 40 year old woman whowas still going to church
because I was afraid ofdisappointing my parents.
Michelle Gauthier (07:45):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, and that does not even
sound funny to me.
I'm like, oh, and that does noteven sound funny to me.
I'm like, oh, absolutely.
I mean, even after all thiswork, to not be a people pleaser
anymore.
If I had to do something, thatwould definitely make my parents
disappointed.
It would still cause me a lotof pain, Like that's the last
thing to fall for me, for sure.
Sara Fisk (08:04):
Yeah, for a lot of people, it is because those are
the big people that you mostdepended on.
Michelle Gauthier (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
That's so interesting.
Okay, so how do you help peopleget out of people pleasing,
like, what are the tips orstrategies that you use to help
them stop people pleasing?
Sara Fisk (08:25):
If we boil people pleasing down to its most basic
components, they are these: People-pleasing is uncomfortable (08:29):
undefined
.
When I was going to church andlistening to things I no longer
agreed with giving my time to anorganization that I no longer
felt aligned with my values,giving my money to an
organization that I no longerfelt aligned with my values, I
felt trapped, I felt stuck, Ifelt angry, I felt resentful, I
(08:53):
felt anxious, I felt fearful,right.
But those emotions are familiarto me, right, as as women who
are taught to people, please, weknow all about resentment,
please, we know all aboutresentment.
We know all about dread, right,and, and fear and anxiety,
(09:13):
because those are the emotionsthat come up when you self
abandon over and over and overfor other people, but they're
comfortable and they're known.
Michelle Gauthier (09:21):
Yes, oh, my gosh, I have to have you pause
just for a second.
I love the idea of.
I don't love the idea.
I love the term self-abandoned.
Tell me what you mean by that.
Sara Fisk (09:32):
It's when you want something different than I want
and I choose you and I abandonmyself without thinking.
Michelle Gauthier (09:42):
Oh my gosh, I'm totally taking that away.
That is such a great term andjust way to think about it, I'm
going to abandon myself and I'mgoing to jump on board with you,
just leave myself behind mythoughts, my feelings, whatever.
Okay, yeah, that's great.
Sara Fisk (09:58):
And if we have time I want to come back to that
because it matters in healthy,connected, loving relationships
that we do choose the otherperson sometimes.
But there's a specific way todo it where it's not people
pleasing and it's notself-abandonment.
So hopefully we can come backto that.
But getting back to likeboiling people pleasing down to
(10:18):
its basic components so peoplepleasing is uncomfortable, but
it's the known discomfort, notpeople pleasing is also highly
uncomfortable because now I'mafraid of what people are going
to think of me.
I am worried about whatsomebody who is disappointed in
me is going to think and feel.
(10:39):
I am scared in a different, newway.
But this not people pleasingfear and discomfort and anxiety
is actually feeling.
That is what allows me to havenew freedom, new self-awareness,
new self-connection and itmoves me in the direction of
(11:04):
becoming my own sovereign person.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
And so when you boil peoplepleasing down to its basic
components, you just saydifferent words and feel
different discomfort.
Michelle Gauthier (11:18):
Uh-huh.
Yes, but it's not like one iseasy and one is hard.
Like they're both just twodifferent kinds of uncomfortable
.
I love that.
Sara Fisk (11:27):
That's right.
Michelle Gauthier (11:27):
I love that, and I think our brain easily
confuses discomfort and comfortand thinks that when something
feels familiar, that it'scomfortable and it's like that
comfortable, oh, absolutely,people please.
But it feels so familiar thatit's like I don't know, like
wearing a really uncomfortablesweater but wearing it every day
(11:48):
and being like, oh, oh, I'mjust going to put on this
sweater, even though it's itchyand I hate it.
Yeah, I know what this sweaterfeels like.
Yeah, exactly, I know exactlyhow I'm going to feel all day
when I'm wearing this sweater.
That's making me itchy justthinking about it.
Ok, I love that.
Those are great points.
Can we go back to how toself-abandon?
Sara Fisk (12:09):
in a good way.
The most important feelings forhumans are safety, connection
and dignity.
Oh, dignity, we have to havethose things, okay, and that's
why when you hurt someone'sdignity by shaming them, they
(12:30):
react in kind of such, you know,volatile ways or they withdraw.
It's really essential that wefeel that we are safe, that we
have places where we areconnected, where we belong, and
that we are worthy of dignity,and so everything we do as
humans is to get those thingsfor ourselves safety, connection
(12:51):
and dignity.
So when we think about notpeople pleasing it can threaten
our safety, because, on a verybasic kind of tribal emotion,
biology programming level, weneed to be part of groups, we
need to be accepted incommunities, in families, in
(13:13):
organizations.
I mean, I have so much sympathywhen it felt like I was going
to disappoint, sympathy when itfelt like I was going to
disappoint my parents, it feltlike I was going to die, and so
many people listening to thiscan probably identify with that
emotion of like wanting todisappoint someone else because
that's what's best for me, butnot being able to do it because
the emotion is just so big, andso I have so much empathy for
(13:39):
that.
And so when we're talking aboutself-abandoning.
One of the things that we haveto recognize is that we
self-abandon so that we canbelong in groups, and sometimes
that is normal, appropriate,good behavior.
For example, if I'm in a groupof people who are LGBTQ, let's
(14:03):
say, I want to abandon myhomophobic stances on things so
that I can agree, so that I canbe safe, so that I can expand my
vision of what it's like tohave a human experience that's
different from my own.
So this idea of self-abandonmentisn't good or bad.
(14:27):
It just depends on how it feelsto you to do it and where you
use it as a tool for safety,connection and where you use it
as a tool for safety, connectionand dignity.
So if you and I are in arelationship, if you and I are
and we want to take ourrelationship to a place of more
(14:47):
connection and safety, I want toknow what's important to you
and I want you to know what'simportant to me, and I want to
be able to respond to that andreciprocate, because that is
what form connected, vulnerable,healthy relationships is.
I adjust based on what you wantand need, and sometimes you
(15:11):
adjust based on what I want andneed, but here's the difference
that is critical.
If I am adjusting in ways thatI don't consciously know where I
don't like my reasons for doingit, that's people pleasing.
Michelle Gauthier (15:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, if you're like I'm justthinking, I went to this charity
event last weekend and it was acharity that was talking about
it was for kids to go afterschool to this gym to work out,
and they were talking about howthe parents of those children
are often able to give theirkids physical safety, food
(15:53):
safety, you know, providing themwith the right nutrition, food
safety, you know, providing themwith the right nutrition, all
those things.
And I really literally had tolike get myself to that place
and think I am so lucky that Ihave never had to worry that my
kids aren't going to be safe athome, you know, and so like
getting into that mindset andbeing in the mindset of
(16:15):
everybody who was there so thatI could like be part of that and
support that group.
Is that an example of where I?
It was like a new way ofthinking for me, but it wasn't
against my beliefs.
It was just like empathy andunderstanding of a different
perspective.
Sara Fisk (16:31):
That's it.
That's it, and, and sometimesit even can go beyond that.
Let me give you an example frommy personal life.
So my grandmother was 96 whenshe passed away almost two years
ago, and my daughter is gay.
And when she came out, one ofthe things that she asked me is
(16:55):
do you think I should tellgrandma?
And I was like, well, let'stalk that through, because her
ability to understand this, herability to adjust to it, her
ability to kind of make sense ofthat with her worldview, is
limited.
And also, daughter, you get tobe who you want to be and you
(17:17):
get to tell whoever you want totell that you feel safe with.
And so we investigated herreasons for telling her and for
not telling her, and she decidedon her own that that was not
something that she wanted toshare because of her perception
of the limitations.
And so from the outside thatmight look like people pleasing.
(17:38):
You're not telling your grandmathat you're gay, you're not
living your highest, mostauthentic truth, and I can
understand that.
But the reason that it wasn'tpeople pleasing is because she
had made it a conscious exerciseto go through her reasons for
either sharing that or not andshe had made a choice that she
(17:59):
was happy with.
Michelle Gauthier (18:01):
Yeah, I think that's great.
That is, it's a big difference,and I think it's a huge a lot of
times people can't see thedifference between those from
the outside, but when it's you,you know it.
I feel like you can tell whenyou're in alignment with the
choices that you're making and,to your point, as long as you
know your reasons and you likeyour reasons, nobody else's
(18:21):
opinion matters.
That's where the pleasingdoesn't happen.
So if somebody said that'sexactly taller, if you're going
to be your most authentic self,and she could just be like nope,
I'm not going to do it, I likemy reasons, they're OK with me
and I am willing to stand by myreason, and so not people.
Sara Fisk (18:41):
Pleasing is all about knowing your reasons, liking
them and then being willing tofeel the uncomfortable emotion
of taking the step to not people, please.
Michelle Gauthier (18:56):
Yeah, yes, exactly, I absolutely love it.
Something I talk about a lot,which is sort of like at the end
of people pleasing is saying no, but those two are very tied
together and I think it reallyis just a muscle, like when I
started going to this gym whereI go now, I couldn't do a single
pushup.
The other day I did a wholebunch of pushups.
I was like, wow, that was hardbut it wasn't impossible.
(19:18):
And that's how I feel aboutsaying no.
I can totally say no now.
Yes, it used to cause me a 10out of 10 discomfort, and now
it's like a zero or maybe a one,depending on the situation.
So for anybody out there who'sthinking this all sounds
horrible, this is too much.
It's going to be souncomfortable it will be, that's
correct, but it's not going tobe forever and always super
(19:41):
uncomfortable.
Sara Fisk (19:42):
Let me just give one other little tip there.
Let me just give one otherlittle tip there.
All of us know that there aresome situations that feel very
risky to not people please, andothers that feel less risky.
Start with the less riskysituations first, because you're
literally building a newemotional muscle.
(20:05):
None of us are going to walkinto the gym and start trying to
do bicep curls with a 25 poundweight, right?
If we're going to just continuethis little beautiful exercise
metaphor we've got going on here, right, we're going to start
with maybe five pounds and we'regoing to do as many reps as we
can until we max out there andthen we're going to build and go
(20:26):
to 10 and then, to you know, upfrom there.
But one of the things that Ithink gets in people's way is
that sometimes they opt to notpeople please.
In relationships where there isa lot at stake and it's
overwhelming and feels trulyterrifying, don't start there.
Start with.
(20:46):
This is a favorite example forme to share, because the
opinions vary wildly.
Start with sending food back ata restaurant when you don't
like it, right?
Yeah, for some people thatfeels wildly terrifying, other
people like, no problem.
But if that's scary for youlike.
(21:07):
Start there.
Start with somebody you'renever going to see again.
Michelle Gauthier (21:10):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so great, great example.
Oh my gosh, I'm sure somepeople that sounds absolutely
terrible.
Sara Fisk (21:19):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so find, find something that feels
less terrible.
Michelle Gauthier (21:24):
Yeah, yes, that's great.
Something I say, too, is justrealizing that you are people
pleasing, or about to peopleplease, or that you're saying
yes when you want to say no, itgives you points in the
direction of starting to workthat muscle, Like just to say,
okay, I didn't send my food backand the reason I didn't is
because I didn't want thewaitress to not like me.
(21:44):
That's exactly it.
You're moving in the rightdirection, you know that's
building really criticalawareness.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Well, this has been sointeresting.
I love your take on peoplepleasing.
I want to ask you two questionsthat I ask everybody on the
show, just to get yourperspective on it.
(22:04):
So what is something you knowoverwhelms obviously our
favorite topic on here.
So what is something you knowoverwhelms obviously our
favorite topic on here.
So what is something that youdo when you feel overwhelmed
that can make you feel betteralmost right away?
Slowing down, okay.
Sara Fisk (22:19):
Tell us what that looks like for you.
When I start to feeloverwhelmed, it's like the
hamster wheel.
I just want to go faster andfaster and faster, and this
actually happened last Saturday.
I just want to go faster, andfaster and faster, and this
actually happened last Saturday.
I had a bunch of projects Iwanted to get done for the day.
They were not going as quicklyas I wanted.
I couldn't get the help that Iwas wanting, and so I found
(22:39):
myself just kind of franticallygoing from room to room doing a
little bit here and a little bithere and a little bit here, and
I was like wait, hey, slow down, calm down, slow down.
And then I laid down on thefloor in my just like okay, take
a break, slow down.
And then what's the one thingwe're going to do next?
(23:01):
Then the one thing after that,because my brain really thinks
that doing things faster is theway to get out of the overwhelm,
and for me it's the opposite.
Michelle Gauthier (23:11):
It just makes me feel extra stressed and
extra like I am just going tocombust from the inside out
Exactly and it just takes yourbrain offline, almost like you
can't even think straight whenyou're in that speedy mode like
that.
I love that that's a great one.
And what is something that youdo to save yourself time or do
(23:32):
less?
Sara Fisk (23:34):
I order my groceries.
Oh yes, good one, good one.
I went back and forth with this.
I am a penny pincher, I'm adeal favor, and I actually did
all the math to like what is itto get it delivered?
What is it?
And it's.
I realized that this is this isa point of privilege that I am
(23:55):
able to do this, and I don'twant to make it sound like I
think that everybody can orshould do this, but for me, the
amount of time that it takes toget in my car, drive down, do
all the shopping it's reallyworth letting someone else do
that for me, even if I just wantto sit on the couch and rest.
I don't love going to thegrocery store.
(24:15):
Some people do.
Then please, by all means, doit.
It's not something I love.
So finding those things that Idon't love and offloading them
or stopping doing them is that'sbeen a big thing that I've
worked on this year.
Michelle Gauthier (24:28):
That's awesome.
I really do think that it savesmoney too, because you don't
buy all the random crap like youmake.
That's exactly the meals, youorder the things that you
actually want, and, yeah, it'smuch harder to just add some
random thing that you're like,oh, I really don't want to eat
that, but I'm just going to getthese candy bars or whatever it
(24:48):
is that you don't really want.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
My favorite thing to do.
I do it on Sundays, and myfavorite thing to do is put in
the grocery order and then Itake a nap and then when I wake
up the groceries are there.
I'm like I am winning at life.
I just took a nap.
Sara Fisk (25:06):
It's so great, and there's something about not
having to go to Costco.
I just love it.
Michelle Gauthier (25:13):
I just I don't know if it's just
stimulating and I don't like it,or either no, there's nothing
about that.
I like, and, for people who dolike, my ex-husband likes it and
he used to always go for us andI was so grateful.
So, yeah, when we got divorced,I was like I'm going to find
some new solution.
I cannot do this, and gettingmarried again seemed harder than
(25:33):
ordering yes, oh my gosh.
Sara Fisk (25:36):
A hundred percent that Instacart subscription way
easier than finding a man who.
Michelle Gauthier (25:42):
Exactly, exactly, oh my gosh.
Okay, so tell people where theycan find you.
We didn't mention your podcast.
Tell us that again, and thenanything else you'd like to
share and I do workshops everymonth.
Sara Fisk (25:55):
One free workshop every month, one paid workshop,
and by paid I mean like $9,super cheap.
Because I really want women tohave the fundamental skills that
(26:16):
it takes to not people-please.
I teach them in those workshops.
I also have a free Facebookgroup called Stop
People-Pleasing.
I am in there multiple times aweek, coaching, sharing things,
making sure that people have thenext step, because my like
secret world vision for all ofus women is that we're just free
(26:39):
to make whatever choice we wantand that we don't carry around
the guilt and the heaviness andthe burden of people pleasing
anymore.
Michelle Gauthier (26:48):
Yes, love that so much.
So where should people go ifthey want to know when those
classes are, when those go?
Sara Fisk (26:55):
to the best place to find those is actually, and
thank you for asking.
On my Instagram page, seraphistCoaching, there's a link in my
bio and you can always find themost recent, best information
there about what's coming up.
Michelle Gauthier (27:11):
Okay, okay, awesome, great.
I need to sign up for one.
Those sound great.
I'd love to have you.
Yeah, okay, great, great, well,thank you so much for being on,
and here's cheers to not peoplepleasing anymore.
We did it, thanks.
Sara Fisk (27:26):
Michelle, we did it.
Thanks, michelle, we did.
Michelle Gauthier (27:34):
Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed
Working Woman podcast.
If you want to learn more aboutmy work, head over to my
website at michellegothiercom.
See you next week.
I was a 40-year-old woman who was still going to
church because I was afraid ofdisappointing my parents.
Michelle Gauthier (00:10):
You're listening to Overwhelmed Working
Woman, the podcast that helpsyou be more calm and more
productive by doing less.
I'm your host, MichelleGauthier, a former Overwhelmed
Working Woman and current lifecoach.
On this show, we unpack thestress and pressure that today's
working woman experiences andin each episode you'll get a
strategy to bring more calm,ease and relaxation to your life
(00:34):
.
Hi, friend, thanks for joiningtoday.
This is going to be a greatepisode about one of my favorite
topics, which ispeople-pleasing.
Today I'm talking to Sara Fisk,who is the host of the Ex-Good
Girl podcast.
I absolutely love the name ofthat podcast, isn't it great?
Because, basically, if you're agood girl quote-unquote you're
(00:55):
sort of forced to be apeople-pleaser by society.
Today, when you listen, you'regoing to learn some new
information aboutpeople-pleasing why
people-pleasing feels sofamiliar and comfortable, and
how that keeps you stuck, how tostop abandoning your own needs.
I think that is such a good wayto explain exactly what we do
when we people please.
We just abandon what weactually need for what other
(01:17):
people want.
And, finally, a simple strategythat's geared toward building
the muscle of saying no withoutthe guilt part.
Just a reminder that April isour celebration month for the
two-year anniversary ofOverwhelmed Working Woman and I
am still collecting voice memosfrom listeners, where you tell
me your name and where you'refrom your favorite part about
(01:38):
the podcast and then you ask mea question.
I have received so many greatquestions so far, but there are
so many more that could be asked, so the link is in the show
notes.
It's really easy you just clickon a button, speak, you have a
chance to redo it if you don'tlike it and then submit it to me
.
I would love to hear from you.
Also.
Before we get into the episode,I want to tell you when you
(01:59):
listen to this interview, youmight notice that my audio is
kind of terrible.
Sarah's sounds great, butsomething was wrong with my
microphone and I didn't know itand I did the whole interview
and the interview is so goodthat I didn't want to not use
this recording.
So we have edited it to thebest of our ability, but if it
sounds kind of crappy, that iswhy I had to really embrace and
(02:20):
practice what I preach.
We love to do A plus work, butsometimes we have to do B minus
work and just live with thatbecause we got it done.
So I'm putting this podcastinto the A plus content but B
minus on my audio.
Thanks for hanging in there withme.
Hey, Sara, thanks for joiningus today.
Great to have you.
(02:41):
Oh, I'm so glad to be here.
I'm excited to have you becauseyou're an expert on
people-pleasing.
We talk about people-pleasing alot on this podcast One of my
favorite topics, because I usedto be excellent at it, me too.
Yeah, tell us a little bitabout your story and how you
were an ex-good girl.
(03:02):
That's the name of your podcast, correct, that's?
Sara Fisk (03:05):
it.
Yeah, it's the Ex-Good GirlPodcast.
And here's what's funny is thateven before I started doing
that podcast, I thought of thename, and the name sounded so
scandalous to me it took me awhole year to like really own it
.
That that was what I wanted toname my podcast, which just
(03:26):
indicate how deeply I wasinvested in people thinking I
was a good girl, because if I'mgoing to call myself the ex-good
girl, then that means somethingright.
It implies something yeah,totally, totally.
Michelle Gauthier (03:42):
Oh my gosh.
Well, tell us how you got here,Like how did you get to be a
good girl and how did you get tobe an ex good girl?
Sara Fisk (03:51):
Well, all of us.
If you are socialized as awoman, you are a good girl.
You have been taught that thereare certain rules that you need
to follow so that people thinkyou are kind and good and nice
and sweet.
And it's even a little morecomplex than that because, if
(04:16):
you want to get to like how weall become people pleasers if we
zoom way out, every singlehuman that comes into this world
is utterly dependent on the bigpeople in their lives, and it
is a survival technique thatevery baby is born with that
they have to win the care andaffection of those bigger, more
(04:41):
capable humans, otherwise theydie.
And so babies cry and they seethat somebody comes and helps
them, and that's the first kindof connection that is made in a
baby's brain.
Is that, oh, I cry andsomething happens.
And so they keep doing that andrealize, oh, I like this, like
snuggle that I get, I like mydiaper being changed, I like
(05:04):
being fed.
And then they keep growing andthey realize that there are more
things that they can do to winmore care and affection.
I have five kids, I think.
Do you have children as well?
Yes, I have two kids, okay, sowhen they were little and they
started smiling back at you.
What did you do?
Michelle Gauthier (05:23):
Yeah, smiled and gave them everything they
wanted.
Oh my gosh, they're so cute.
Sara Fisk (05:29):
Right.
And then they get more hugs andmore snuggles, and so that
connection is made oh, they likethat, they like that.
And I get a positive response.
And so baby smiles more andlearns to wave and learns to say
hi and learns to say mommy anddaddy.
And then they start collectinginformation on the opposite side
of that, which is oh, there aresome things I do that they
(05:50):
don't like.
I remember sitting with mydaughter on a chair and she was
playing around with her handsand kind of testing the limits,
and she slapped my face and Igrabbed her hand and I pushed
her away from my body and I saidno, and she could tell by the
tone of my voice and how myeyebrows went down and how I,
like, physically removed herfrom me, that I didn't like that
(06:13):
.
And of course she dissolvesinto tears and cries and cries
and cries because she has nowbeen punished for something that
she didn't know, she hadn'tmade the connection yet that
that was quote unquote bad.
And so we grow up collectingall of that information.
This is what they like, this iswhat gets me rewarded and this
is what they don't like, this iswhat gets me punished, and for
(06:36):
the first part of our life thatis appropriate.
That's what we have to do toensure that we have the care and
affection of those big people.
The problem is, as we grow, wecan take better care of
ourselves.
We become adults, we have ourown preferences, we have our own
desires that we want for ourown lives, but no one ever
(06:59):
teaches us how to not peopleplease.
And that is kind of where Icome in, because I was very
invested in being liked, in myparents being proud of me in
doing the things that would makemy community think that I was
smart and capable and hopeful,and a lot of this played out for
(07:24):
me in my religious organization.
I was raised in a veryconservative religious
denomination and leaving wasseen as something really bad.
And so it's.
I say it kind of is a joke, butit's kind of not a joke.
I was a 40 year old woman whowas still going to church
because I was afraid ofdisappointing my parents.
Michelle Gauthier (07:45):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, and that does not even
sound funny to me.
I'm like, oh, and that does noteven sound funny to me.
I'm like, oh, absolutely.
I mean, even after all thiswork, to not be a people pleaser
anymore.
If I had to do something, thatwould definitely make my parents
disappointed.
It would still cause me a lotof pain, Like that's the last
thing to fall for me, for sure.
Sara Fisk (08:04):
Yeah, for a lot of people, it is because those are
the big people that you mostdepended on.
Michelle Gauthier (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
That's so interesting.
Okay, so how do you help peopleget out of people pleasing,
like, what are the tips orstrategies that you use to help
them stop people pleasing?
Sara Fisk (08:25):
If we boil people pleasing down to its most basic
components, they are these: People-pleasing is uncomfortable (08:29):
undefined
.
When I was going to church andlistening to things I no longer
agreed with giving my time to anorganization that I no longer
felt aligned with my values,giving my money to an
organization that I no longerfelt aligned with my values, I
felt trapped, I felt stuck, Ifelt angry, I felt resentful, I
(08:53):
felt anxious, I felt fearful,right.
But those emotions are familiarto me, right, as as women who
are taught to people, please, weknow all about resentment,
please, we know all aboutresentment.
We know all about dread, right,and, and fear and anxiety,
(09:13):
because those are the emotionsthat come up when you self
abandon over and over and overfor other people, but they're
comfortable and they're known.
Michelle Gauthier (09:21):
Yes, oh, my gosh, I have to have you pause
just for a second.
I love the idea of.
I don't love the idea.
I love the term self-abandoned.
Tell me what you mean by that.
Sara Fisk (09:32):
It's when you want something different than I want
and I choose you and I abandonmyself without thinking.
Michelle Gauthier (09:42):
Oh my gosh, I'm totally taking that away.
That is such a great term andjust way to think about it, I'm
going to abandon myself and I'mgoing to jump on board with you,
just leave myself behind mythoughts, my feelings, whatever.
Okay, yeah, that's great.
Sara Fisk (09:58):
And if we have time I want to come back to that
because it matters in healthy,connected, loving relationships
that we do choose the otherperson sometimes.
But there's a specific way todo it where it's not people
pleasing and it's notself-abandonment.
So hopefully we can come backto that.
But getting back to likeboiling people pleasing down to
(10:18):
its basic components so peoplepleasing is uncomfortable, but
it's the known discomfort, notpeople pleasing is also highly
uncomfortable because now I'mafraid of what people are going
to think of me.
I am worried about whatsomebody who is disappointed in
me is going to think and feel.
(10:39):
I am scared in a different, newway.
But this not people pleasingfear and discomfort and anxiety
is actually feeling.
That is what allows me to havenew freedom, new self-awareness,
new self-connection and itmoves me in the direction of
(11:04):
becoming my own sovereign person.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
And so when you boil peoplepleasing down to its basic
components, you just saydifferent words and feel
different discomfort.
Michelle Gauthier (11:18):
Uh-huh.
Yes, but it's not like one iseasy and one is hard.
Like they're both just twodifferent kinds of uncomfortable
.
I love that.
Sara Fisk (11:27):
That's right.
Michelle Gauthier (11:27):
I love that, and I think our brain easily
confuses discomfort and comfortand thinks that when something
feels familiar, that it'scomfortable and it's like that
comfortable, oh, absolutely,people please.
But it feels so familiar thatit's like I don't know, like
wearing a really uncomfortablesweater but wearing it every day
(11:48):
and being like, oh, oh, I'mjust going to put on this
sweater, even though it's itchyand I hate it.
Yeah, I know what this sweaterfeels like.
Yeah, exactly, I know exactlyhow I'm going to feel all day
when I'm wearing this sweater.
That's making me itchy justthinking about it.
Ok, I love that.
Those are great points.
Can we go back to how toself-abandon?
Sara Fisk (12:09):
in a good way.
The most important feelings forhumans are safety, connection
and dignity.
Oh, dignity, we have to havethose things, okay, and that's
why when you hurt someone'sdignity by shaming them, they
(12:30):
react in kind of such, you know,volatile ways or they withdraw.
It's really essential that wefeel that we are safe, that we
have places where we areconnected, where we belong, and
that we are worthy of dignity,and so everything we do as
humans is to get those thingsfor ourselves safety, connection
(12:51):
and dignity.
So when we think about notpeople pleasing it can threaten
our safety, because, on a verybasic kind of tribal emotion,
biology programming level, weneed to be part of groups, we
need to be accepted incommunities, in families, in
(13:13):
organizations.
I mean, I have so much sympathywhen it felt like I was going
to disappoint, sympathy when itfelt like I was going to
disappoint my parents, it feltlike I was going to die, and so
many people listening to thiscan probably identify with that
emotion of like wanting todisappoint someone else because
that's what's best for me, butnot being able to do it because
the emotion is just so big, andso I have so much empathy for
(13:39):
that.
And so when we're talking aboutself-abandoning.
One of the things that we haveto recognize is that we
self-abandon so that we canbelong in groups, and sometimes
that is normal, appropriate,good behavior.
For example, if I'm in a groupof people who are LGBTQ, let's
(14:03):
say, I want to abandon myhomophobic stances on things so
that I can agree, so that I canbe safe, so that I can expand my
vision of what it's like tohave a human experience that's
different from my own.
So this idea of self-abandonmentisn't good or bad.
(14:27):
It just depends on how it feelsto you to do it and where you
use it as a tool for safety,connection and where you use it
as a tool for safety, connectionand dignity.
So if you and I are in arelationship, if you and I are
and we want to take ourrelationship to a place of more
(14:47):
connection and safety, I want toknow what's important to you
and I want you to know what'simportant to me, and I want to
be able to respond to that andreciprocate, because that is
what form connected, vulnerable,healthy relationships is.
I adjust based on what you wantand need, and sometimes you
(15:11):
adjust based on what I want andneed, but here's the difference
that is critical.
If I am adjusting in ways thatI don't consciously know where I
don't like my reasons for doingit, that's people pleasing.
Michelle Gauthier (15:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, if you're like I'm justthinking, I went to this charity
event last weekend and it was acharity that was talking about
it was for kids to go afterschool to this gym to work out,
and they were talking about howthe parents of those children
are often able to give theirkids physical safety, food
(15:53):
safety, you know, providing themwith the right nutrition, food
safety, you know, providing themwith the right nutrition, all
those things.
And I really literally had tolike get myself to that place
and think I am so lucky that Ihave never had to worry that my
kids aren't going to be safe athome, you know, and so like
getting into that mindset andbeing in the mindset of
(16:15):
everybody who was there so thatI could like be part of that and
support that group.
Is that an example of where I?
It was like a new way ofthinking for me, but it wasn't
against my beliefs.
It was just like empathy andunderstanding of a different
perspective.
Sara Fisk (16:31):
That's it.
That's it, and, and sometimesit even can go beyond that.
Let me give you an example frommy personal life.
So my grandmother was 96 whenshe passed away almost two years
ago, and my daughter is gay.
And when she came out, one ofthe things that she asked me is
(16:55):
do you think I should tellgrandma?
And I was like, well, let'stalk that through, because her
ability to understand this, herability to adjust to it, her
ability to kind of make sense ofthat with her worldview, is
limited.
And also, daughter, you get tobe who you want to be and you
(17:17):
get to tell whoever you want totell that you feel safe with.
And so we investigated herreasons for telling her and for
not telling her, and she decidedon her own that that was not
something that she wanted toshare because of her perception
of the limitations.
And so from the outside thatmight look like people pleasing.
(17:38):
You're not telling your grandmathat you're gay, you're not
living your highest, mostauthentic truth, and I can
understand that.
But the reason that it wasn'tpeople pleasing is because she
had made it a conscious exerciseto go through her reasons for
either sharing that or not andshe had made a choice that she
(17:59):
was happy with.
Michelle Gauthier (18:01):
Yeah, I think that's great.
That is, it's a big difference,and I think it's a huge a lot of
times people can't see thedifference between those from
the outside, but when it's you,you know it.
I feel like you can tell whenyou're in alignment with the
choices that you're making and,to your point, as long as you
know your reasons and you likeyour reasons, nobody else's
(18:21):
opinion matters.
That's where the pleasingdoesn't happen.
So if somebody said that'sexactly taller, if you're going
to be your most authentic self,and she could just be like nope,
I'm not going to do it, I likemy reasons, they're OK with me
and I am willing to stand by myreason, and so not people.
Sara Fisk (18:41):
Pleasing is all about knowing your reasons, liking
them and then being willing tofeel the uncomfortable emotion
of taking the step to not people, please.
Michelle Gauthier (18:56):
Yeah, yes, exactly, I absolutely love it.
Something I talk about a lot,which is sort of like at the end
of people pleasing is saying no, but those two are very tied
together and I think it reallyis just a muscle, like when I
started going to this gym whereI go now, I couldn't do a single
pushup.
The other day I did a wholebunch of pushups.
I was like, wow, that was hardbut it wasn't impossible.
(19:18):
And that's how I feel aboutsaying no.
I can totally say no now.
Yes, it used to cause me a 10out of 10 discomfort, and now
it's like a zero or maybe a one,depending on the situation.
So for anybody out there who'sthinking this all sounds
horrible, this is too much.
It's going to be souncomfortable it will be, that's
correct, but it's not going tobe forever and always super
(19:41):
uncomfortable.
Sara Fisk (19:42):
Let me just give one other little tip there.
Let me just give one otherlittle tip there.
All of us know that there aresome situations that feel very
risky to not people please, andothers that feel less risky.
Start with the less riskysituations first, because you're
literally building a newemotional muscle.
(20:05):
None of us are going to walkinto the gym and start trying to
do bicep curls with a 25 poundweight, right?
If we're going to just continuethis little beautiful exercise
metaphor we've got going on here, right, we're going to start
with maybe five pounds and we'regoing to do as many reps as we
can until we max out there andthen we're going to build and go
(20:26):
to 10 and then, to you know, upfrom there.
But one of the things that Ithink gets in people's way is
that sometimes they opt to notpeople please.
In relationships where there isa lot at stake and it's
overwhelming and feels trulyterrifying, don't start there.
Start with.
(20:46):
This is a favorite example forme to share, because the
opinions vary wildly.
Start with sending food back ata restaurant when you don't
like it, right?
Yeah, for some people thatfeels wildly terrifying, other
people like, no problem.
But if that's scary for youlike.
(21:07):
Start there.
Start with somebody you'renever going to see again.
Michelle Gauthier (21:10):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so great, great example.
Oh my gosh, I'm sure somepeople that sounds absolutely
terrible.
Sara Fisk (21:19):
Yes, yeah, yeah, so find, find something that feels
less terrible.
Michelle Gauthier (21:24):
Yeah, yes, that's great.
Something I say, too, is justrealizing that you are people
pleasing, or about to peopleplease, or that you're saying
yes when you want to say no, itgives you points in the
direction of starting to workthat muscle, Like just to say,
okay, I didn't send my food backand the reason I didn't is
because I didn't want thewaitress to not like me.
(21:44):
That's exactly it.
You're moving in the rightdirection, you know that's
building really criticalawareness.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Well, this has been sointeresting.
I love your take on peoplepleasing.
I want to ask you two questionsthat I ask everybody on the
show, just to get yourperspective on it.
(22:04):
So what is something you knowoverwhelms obviously our
favorite topic on here.
So what is something you knowoverwhelms obviously our
favorite topic on here.
So what is something that youdo when you feel overwhelmed
that can make you feel betteralmost right away?
Slowing down, okay.
Sara Fisk (22:19):
Tell us what that looks like for you.
When I start to feeloverwhelmed, it's like the
hamster wheel.
I just want to go faster andfaster and faster, and this
actually happened last Saturday.
I just want to go faster, andfaster and faster, and this
actually happened last Saturday.
I had a bunch of projects Iwanted to get done for the day.
They were not going as quicklyas I wanted.
I couldn't get the help that Iwas wanting, and so I found
(22:39):
myself just kind of franticallygoing from room to room doing a
little bit here and a little bithere and a little bit here, and
I was like wait, hey, slow down, calm down, slow down.
And then I laid down on thefloor in my just like okay, take
a break, slow down.
And then what's the one thingwe're going to do next?
(23:01):
Then the one thing after that,because my brain really thinks
that doing things faster is theway to get out of the overwhelm,
and for me it's the opposite.
Michelle Gauthier (23:11):
It just makes me feel extra stressed and
extra like I am just going tocombust from the inside out
Exactly and it just takes yourbrain offline, almost like you
can't even think straight whenyou're in that speedy mode like
that.
I love that that's a great one.
And what is something that youdo to save yourself time or do
(23:32):
less?
Sara Fisk (23:34):
I order my groceries.
Oh yes, good one, good one.
I went back and forth with this.
I am a penny pincher, I'm adeal favor, and I actually did
all the math to like what is itto get it delivered?
What is it?
And it's.
I realized that this is this isa point of privilege that I am
(23:55):
able to do this, and I don'twant to make it sound like I
think that everybody can orshould do this, but for me, the
amount of time that it takes toget in my car, drive down, do
all the shopping it's reallyworth letting someone else do
that for me, even if I just wantto sit on the couch and rest.
I don't love going to thegrocery store.
(24:15):
Some people do.
Then please, by all means, doit.
It's not something I love.
So finding those things that Idon't love and offloading them
or stopping doing them is that'sbeen a big thing that I've
worked on this year.
Michelle Gauthier (24:28):
That's awesome.
I really do think that it savesmoney too, because you don't
buy all the random crap like youmake.
That's exactly the meals, youorder the things that you
actually want, and, yeah, it'smuch harder to just add some
random thing that you're like,oh, I really don't want to eat
that, but I'm just going to getthese candy bars or whatever it
(24:48):
is that you don't really want.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
My favorite thing to do.
I do it on Sundays, and myfavorite thing to do is put in
the grocery order and then Itake a nap and then when I wake
up the groceries are there.
I'm like I am winning at life.
I just took a nap.
Sara Fisk (25:06):
It's so great, and there's something about not
having to go to Costco.
I just love it.
Michelle Gauthier (25:13):
I just I don't know if it's just
stimulating and I don't like it,or either no, there's nothing
about that.
I like, and, for people who dolike, my ex-husband likes it and
he used to always go for us andI was so grateful.
So, yeah, when we got divorced,I was like I'm going to find
some new solution.
I cannot do this, and gettingmarried again seemed harder than
(25:33):
ordering yes, oh my gosh.
Sara Fisk (25:36):
A hundred percent that Instacart subscription way
easier than finding a man who.
Michelle Gauthier (25:42):
Exactly, exactly, oh my gosh.
Okay, so tell people where theycan find you.
We didn't mention your podcast.
Tell us that again, and thenanything else you'd like to
share and I do workshops everymonth.
Sara Fisk (25:55):
One free workshop every month, one paid workshop,
and by paid I mean like $9,super cheap.
Because I really want women tohave the fundamental skills that
(26:16):
it takes to not people-please.
I teach them in those workshops.
I also have a free Facebookgroup called Stop
People-Pleasing.
I am in there multiple times aweek, coaching, sharing things,
making sure that people have thenext step, because my like
secret world vision for all ofus women is that we're just free
(26:39):
to make whatever choice we wantand that we don't carry around
the guilt and the heaviness andthe burden of people pleasing
anymore.
Michelle Gauthier (26:48):
Yes, love that so much.
So where should people go ifthey want to know when those
classes are, when those go?
Sara Fisk (26:55):
to the best place to find those is actually, and
thank you for asking.
On my Instagram page, seraphistCoaching, there's a link in my
bio and you can always find themost recent, best information
there about what's coming up.
Michelle Gauthier (27:11):
Okay, okay, awesome, great.
I need to sign up for one.
Those sound great.
I'd love to have you.
Yeah, okay, great, great, well,thank you so much for being on,
and here's cheers to not peoplepleasing anymore.
We did it, thanks.
Sara Fisk (27:26):
Michelle, we did it.
Thanks, michelle, we did.
Michelle Gauthier (27:34):
Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed
Working Woman podcast.
If you want to learn more aboutmy work, head over to my
website at michellegothiercom.
See you next week.
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