May 6, 2024 • 21 mins
In this episode, we're joined by Jaime Cypher, PCAR's Children's Advocacy Coordinator, to discuss stalking. Listen along as Jaime discusses what stalking is, shares a recent experience of stalking after an event, and how bystanders can help and support when we see stalking happen.
https://www.stopstalkingus.com/ https://defendyourself.org/ https://www.stalkingawareness.org/stalking-brochure/ https://www.stalkingawareness.org/documentation-log/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part
of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse, and assault.
Each episode, we will take on a topic or current event to help
spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free
from sexual violence. Hi, I'm Mallory Michael, I use she, her pronouns,
(00:35):
and I'm the prevention and evaluation coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition
to advance Respect. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Jaime Cypher
to learn and talk about stalking. Hi there. I'm Jaime Cypher. I use
we, she pronouns. I work at PCAR as the Children's Advocacy Coordinator.
I do a lot of training and problem solving, and I assist children's
(00:56):
sexual assault counselors and advocates across the state. And actually,
I came from a local center in Butler, and I was the children's
counselor there. Welcome, Jaime. Thank you so much for being here.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to talk about this.
Well, are you ready to dive right in?
Let's do it. All right. So can you start by telling us what
stalking is and what stalking can look like?
(01:20):
Yes, I can, and to do so, I just wanna quote Dr.
Lorraine Sheridan, who's a forensic psychologist, a stalking expert. And
I think she just encapsulates what stalking is really well. She shares that
stalking is difficult to define and there's no one shared language for describing
it. And so, as such, victims often feel that no one understands what
(01:40):
they're going through. So there isn't really a shared language. There's
lots of good dictionary definitions for stalking, but there's so many different
ways that stalking can present. And so in that way, it can be
difficult to define, right? In Pennsylvania, we obviously have a stalking
law, and that defines the crime as a repeated harassment that creates substantial
(02:02):
emotional distress, right? So that emotional distress piece is really large.
The law goes on to say that a person is committing the crime
of stalking if they demonstrate or communicate either an intent to place
another person in reasonable fear of bodily injury or to cause substantial,
there's this emotional distress to another person. And the thing about PA
(02:26):
law is that it really only recognizes stalking as kind of a pattern
of abuse. So kind of a repeated multiple incidents,
as opposed to like an isolated or a one time incident,
which I think can make it even more difficult for victims,
to try to pin down exactly what's happening to them, right? Especially if
they don't have the terminology to begin with.
(02:47):
When I was first thinking about this sort of podcast and talking about
it with you, Mallory, I was thinking about a recent experience I had
just at the end of last year. And it really, and it was
a one time incident, but I would call it a one time incident of
stalking. I was at and a Steelers game from Pittsburgh, and so during
that game, we had some really rowdy fans behind us, that were causing
(03:10):
quite a lot of harm in the background anyway, they were just some
like physical things. We have terrible towels at Pittsburgh games. So kind
of like hitting people with those... There was a lot of verbal abuse
and things like that. A lot of drinking it seemed to be happening.
Actually, at one point, one of these two guys fell
(03:30):
and hit his head. I remember kind of just jumping into action and
trying to like assist with holding his head, making sure he was stable.
And then coming back to my seat after security was called,
and then actually those guys were removed from the game. And it wasn't until
following the game, walking home, walking back to my car, if you know
Pittsburgh, there's not a whole lot of parking. So we had to park, probably
(03:53):
like a 30 minute walk away from the stadium. So we had a
walk ahead of us and we actually, out of the corner of our
eyes, we see these two guys that were at the game,
the one guy that had fell and they were causing all this harm
at the game. And before I even really realized what I was doing,
I remember just like the looks in their eyes of like recognizing who
we were. And they actually said, out loud, you are the girl that
(04:17):
got us kicked out. And I was like,
that's not quite right. That might be what they remember. I don't know
that they remembered a lot, right? So I just remember as we're walking
away and they're kind of heckling us, I turned to my friend who's
another female, and I was like, "Just keep an eye out because that this
(04:38):
doesn't feel right," and they followed us. We turned around maybe a few
minutes later to find that they were following us, which initially was,
just a scary feeling. We're like, oh, well maybe it's just an isolated
thing. We told them to, we turned around, told them to stop.
We continued walking with some other people, but they continued to follow
us. There were times where they ducked behind. They went ahead of us
(05:00):
ducked behind a building waiting for us to pass by.
There was one point towards the end where one of them was like hiding
very close to the sidewalk, and so all, and it's dark out,
right? It's after a game, a night game.
So a lot of like fear based intimidation tactics. There was heckling involved
name calling, like all those things that go along with it,
(05:21):
but just kind of the psychological harm that that produced. I just remember
just being, totally in that survival mode and just thinking,
back on it too, I think about how those after effects really lingered,
right? Like, you think about it after we got in the car,
we had our cortisol levels spiked, all those things. But I remember just
(05:45):
like coming down from that too and thinking, like, thinking that we were
being followed in the car, even though that was well after we had
seen them last. I remember not being able to sleep well that night,
all these things. And these are really, these are probably really similar
kind of symptoms that folks of repeated stalking also feel. But I am, I
(06:05):
can't imagine how that would be amplified, after like a pattern of stalking.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing, Jaime, and sharing your experience
of what that looked like, what that felt like, what,
how that all played out. And I think it was important for you
to note that like, yeah, this is how they were at the game,
(06:25):
and then afterwards, this is what they remembered, right? Because sometimes
that happens is that what actually happened and what people remembered can
be very different. So thank you so much for sharing. So I know
you started talking about people who experience multiple episodes of stalking
or multiple incidences of stalking. How prevalent is stalking in the United
(06:50):
States? Yeah, I think the statistics that are probably the most accurate
come from the national intimate partner in sexual violence survey. So this
is like a national level survey. And 1 in 17 men have experienced
stalking in their lifetimes at any point in time. One in six women
(07:10):
and 1 in 17 men. And they also share
that stalking starts early, right? So about 54% of female victims,
41 of male victims experienced stalking before they turned 25.
And I think the other statistics states that the most prevalent ages to
be stalked are 18 to 24 year old victims.
(07:34):
However, I think it's important to talk about how this data might not
be fully accurate, right? Stop stalking us shares that stalking is often
not reported. And so in that way, data's not gonna be accurate,
right? They ask that victims report their stalking crimes when they can,
because even if victims don't get the individual help that they need,
it really could help inform data and the future work, right?
(07:58):
Advocating for stalking victims. If we can show these are the real numbers
and how prevalent this is and dangerous it is, that can help in
that advocacy work. Yeah. And like you said, bringing awareness that this
does happen and that it's not like just a few people that it
might happen to or a certain age group that it might happen to,
(08:18):
like this does happen to a lot of people. And just,
yeah, like you said, bringing awareness and advocacy to stalking.
Thank you. You talked a little bit about what you were aware of
or what happened during your experience with stalking. Are there other signs
of stalking or other things that people could be aware of that that
(08:38):
might raise some red flags for them or that might make them be
like, Hmm, that's interesting. Are there any signs that you say? Yeah, that's
not, that's not right. What's going on? Yeah.
Yeah. And I think just because, just remembering this, that the definition
of stalking is also just incomplete and difficult because it can happen
(09:00):
in so many ways. I think that's the same thing with remembering where
stalking can happen, right? It happens anywhere people are, right? So that
can be like in person, like for us post
football game, but also like, I mean, it can happen at your home,
in your personal life, at work, in your community,
even on the phone, right? Cell phones. And then thinking about phones as
(09:24):
well, just that online and virtual piece, right? Social media. I think I
hear a lot of cases about victims that are stalked via email,
chat sites, video gaming, like all those places online, should be thought
about, right? And in the case of any victimization as well as stalking,
I immediately had a bad feeling when we ran into those guys outside
(09:48):
of the game when I saw them recognize us and then recognize that
they assumed it was our fault that they had got kicked out of
the game, that I knew something was wrong. And I don't know if
that's a gut feeling, if that's me recognizing something that was out there,
but I remember literally turning to my friend as we walked away and
said, "Keep an eye out behind us because those guys could follow us."
(10:10):
And they did. They did follow us. So like in retrospect,
thinking back, and I've definitely done a lot of that thinking back,
I think we really used all the resources we had available to us
that night, maybe short of calling the police, which I know we would've
if we had needed to because we had told them that we would.
But we asked for help from people around us multiple times.
(10:33):
We had no issue raising our voices. My friend actually yelled at one
point to get everyone's attention in the area. We never walked alone,
and we had our phones ready to call for additional help if needed.
In hindsight, I think, something that could have been helpful was maybe
we could have recorded on our phone. That could have been helpful as
(10:55):
like evidence if we had needed it later on. But I also think,
if you're recording someone, it feels like a deterrent, right?
And maybe location sharing too, right? Like if we had shared our location
with a safe person, I think that could have been helpful as well,
if not just for peace of mind, but also just having that connection
(11:15):
available should anything worse happen. I've done a lot of thinking too
when I was thinking about this question. Oh, there were so many things
that did, and so many people that did.
But I will say that trying to reason and utilizing logic with the
perpetrators was not helpful at all. I remember at one point we were
(11:36):
stopped, trying to get people to stay with us. And
I had said to these two men, I'm gonna call the police if
you continue to follow us. I don't wanna do that, but I will.
And then I started to plead like you have to know,
like maybe if I put this into words and I said,
"Are you seriously going to follow two girls alone
(11:56):
in the dark? Like obviously this isn't okay, right?"
But that didn't, it didn't do anything for us,
and they continued to follow us. Logic wasn't something that came into play,
or was helpful. And I think that can happen probably for a multitude
of reasons, right? Like whatever reasons there might be for people to perpetrate
(12:17):
violence, mental health, substance use, the general nature of violence and
power and oppression, the need to control all those things,
being at play reasoning was not something that worked for us.
And often we hear it doesn't work for other victims of stalking as
well. Thank you so much for sharing that, Jaime. And you mentioned that
(12:38):
you weren't a, like, there were other people around you, but you were
technically alone on this journey back to your car.
I'm thinking about like, if there were other people around you or,
if other people might have seen this, like what role do bystanders play
in this or play in seeing stalking happen in front of them?
(13:01):
Absolutely. I think, at least in my situation, bystanders were everything
for us that in hindsight, we didn't use if it had not been
the case. And honestly, I think that was the highlight
of that experience for me, just being able to see how supportive and
caring and helpful other people can be in those situations.
(13:24):
My friend and I jumped in with a couple that held our arms
while we were, walking with us. I remember the boyfriend calling out the
guys, at one point towards the end of the incidents, a group of
like rather tall people, they actually held up the two guys.
This was right after they were hiding. 'Cause I remember my friend had
(13:45):
said the, this is when she yelled loudly, like, "These guys are following
us and we need help." And one of the tall people were like,
"Do you mean that one over there?" And like pointed to the guy
hiding behind the bus stall, like, yeah, gosh, like, can't even make it
up. Like, and they created a barrier that which allowed us to walk
away with another couple towards our car while the guys were kind of, they
(14:08):
were just talking with them and creating that kind of sort of distraction.
And honestly, the validation alone was something that I didn't know I needed
in that moment, but in retrospect, it was so reassuring in such a
scary moment, right? Like, I can't believe this is happening. This is happening.
You're not alone, right? That validation was so, so helpful.
(14:29):
And I think aside from maybe those things for us, I think about
just bystanders in general, in like an in person stalking incident.
I think offering to record for a bystander could be helpful.
Even offering distractions in the moment, like those guys did for us,
the tall folks I should say. And then like after the fact too, bystanders
(14:51):
can be really helpful, right? Like if they wanna stay to speak to
law enforcement with the victims, or even maybe write a statement on the
victim's behalf. Those things can be really helpful in building a case
for a victim of stalking, especially because we know it can often be
difficult to prosecute. I will mention too, I'll put a plugin for Defend
Yourself. They do really good interactive trainings, for bystander intervention,
(15:15):
but they also have a lot of good written resources for bystanders as
well. Thank you so much, Jaime. And I'm so glad that you got
that validation. I feel like a lot of times that's one thing that's
missing in a lot of different situations and scenarios for victims,
that there isn't that reassurance that like, this is wrong and it's like,
(15:37):
this should not be happening to you. And I'm so glad that you
had that validation and people being like, oh,
okay, I hear you saying that you like you are being stalked or people
are following you and that's not okay. How can I jump in?
Are you talking about them? Okay, like, let's see what we feel comfortable
doing and feel like we're able to do in that situation to help
(16:00):
you out. And I think we forget that bystanders, people who are around
us can also play a part as big or as small as they
feel comfortable doing. And I think you provided a
lot of of great information about what that can look like,
what that can sound like, what people are comfortable doing. Thank you.
That is, it's such, such a good point, Valerie, too. I think that
(16:23):
often, like, we think, oh, like as a bystander I have to do
X, Y, and Z, or, and it makes us really uncomfortable,
right? But there are so many smaller things, or maybe not even smaller
things, but just different types of styles of things that you can do.
Like, if you don't feel like you can say something to
the stalkers, can you get somebody else that can, can you flag down
(16:47):
a police car? Can you just walk around and be like a witness,
right? To kind of keep an eye on things, 'cause that can be
helpful too, right? There's so many different levels of intervention.
Yeah. Or like pretending to be friends with somebody or like jumping in,
like you said, the couple did for you and allowing you both to
grab their arms or like, there are different ways, right? And they don't
(17:10):
have to interact with the harm doers or people who are perpetrating.
Like you can do different levels of what you're comfortable with.
And I think we forget that sometimes it's just being humans.
Like I have to go above and beyond
to do everything that I can. And it's like,
oh, but is that safe for me? Or
(17:30):
do I feel like I am someone who is very confrontational or,
do I feel like I can say something or is it better for
me to pretend to be friends with the people or, pull them in
a different direction or, different things like that.
Exactly. So, you mentioned your experience at a rape crisis center.
(17:52):
We also work with victim advocacy groups at PCAR.
What can those groups do? What could they do to support victims?
How can they work within their communities? Is there different resources
that might be helpful? Yes. So many, I mean, I think they're building,
right? Like the advocacy is there, and we're working towards getting more
(18:15):
awareness and funding behind it, right? And so I mentioned Stop Stalking
Us. Stop Stalking Us is an antis stocking advocacy, nonprofit. And on their
website, they know that they're devoted to creating community for those
impacted by stalking and its aftermath. Really important, changing society's
perceptions of this dangerous, violent, and often invisible crime and making
(18:37):
meaningful change at the legislative level, right? So there's like all these
kind of pieces to that advocacy, but I wanted to mention that Stop
Stalking Us, recommends that each victim work with a local victim advocacy
center. So that could be a rape crisis center
in your county. And one of the big proponents of
this work should be safety planning together. Of course, it's important
(19:01):
to note that each safety plan's gonna be different from one stalking victim
to the next, because each stalking situation is so different and complex,
but their website offers many resources that advocates and victims can use
utilize together as well. Things like example, incident logs to keep track
of each stalking incident. They share digital security resources, lots of
(19:25):
apps for phones and then other security measures as well. There's just a
plethora of information on there. And I think
we can't talk about advocates helping with like safety planning without
also talking about how important it is for victims of stalking to find
either an advocate, a counselor, a friend, a teacher, whoever that might
(19:46):
be, just some other supportive person during their victimization,
and afterwards, because stalking really can be such an isolating crime.
Like it's kind of literally the nature of it, right? Is
this piece of kind of loneliness and personal ness and it really can
hugely affect mental and emotional health of survivors.
(20:09):
Thank you so much, Jaime. Those sound like amazing resources and ones that
I think would be helpful no matter what age group you're in or
where you might be located. Like if you're on a college campus or
maybe you're just living your life in a big old city,
whatever it might be. They sound like really beneficial resources. And for
folks who are listening, we'll add that information into
(20:30):
our notes for you to access. Jaime, thank you so much for joining
us to talk about stalking, sharing your experience, and sharing a lot of
wonderful information for folks. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me.
And just remember that there is no one look to a stalking survivor.
It can happen to anybody, right? And so if this is happening to
(20:52):
you, you're not alone and there's people out there that can help.
That's all the time we have today. But thanks for listening to this
episode of PA Centered. You can learn more and read the stories of
victims at Stop Stalking Us website, stopstalkingus.com. You can check out
more on our website at www.PCAR respecttogether.org. Bye everybody. Bye.
(21:22):
Any user opinions expressed on PA centered by staff or their guests are
solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or
PCARs funders.
Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part
of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse, and assault.
Each episode, we will take on a topic or current event to help
spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free
from sexual violence. Hi, I'm Mallory Michael, I use she, her pronouns,
(00:35):
and I'm the prevention and evaluation coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition
to advance Respect. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Jaime Cypher
to learn and talk about stalking. Hi there. I'm Jaime Cypher. I use
we, she pronouns. I work at PCAR as the Children's Advocacy Coordinator.
I do a lot of training and problem solving, and I assist children's
(00:56):
sexual assault counselors and advocates across the state. And actually,
I came from a local center in Butler, and I was the children's
counselor there. Welcome, Jaime. Thank you so much for being here.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to talk about this.
Well, are you ready to dive right in?
Let's do it. All right. So can you start by telling us what
stalking is and what stalking can look like?
(01:20):
Yes, I can, and to do so, I just wanna quote Dr.
Lorraine Sheridan, who's a forensic psychologist, a stalking expert. And
I think she just encapsulates what stalking is really well. She shares that
stalking is difficult to define and there's no one shared language for describing
it. And so, as such, victims often feel that no one understands what
(01:40):
they're going through. So there isn't really a shared language. There's
lots of good dictionary definitions for stalking, but there's so many different
ways that stalking can present. And so in that way, it can be
difficult to define, right? In Pennsylvania, we obviously have a stalking
law, and that defines the crime as a repeated harassment that creates substantial
(02:02):
emotional distress, right? So that emotional distress piece is really large.
The law goes on to say that a person is committing the crime
of stalking if they demonstrate or communicate either an intent to place
another person in reasonable fear of bodily injury or to cause substantial,
there's this emotional distress to another person. And the thing about PA
(02:26):
law is that it really only recognizes stalking as kind of a pattern
of abuse. So kind of a repeated multiple incidents,
as opposed to like an isolated or a one time incident,
which I think can make it even more difficult for victims,
to try to pin down exactly what's happening to them, right? Especially if
they don't have the terminology to begin with.
(02:47):
When I was first thinking about this sort of podcast and talking about
it with you, Mallory, I was thinking about a recent experience I had
just at the end of last year. And it really, and it was
a one time incident, but I would call it a one time incident of
stalking. I was at and a Steelers game from Pittsburgh, and so during
that game, we had some really rowdy fans behind us, that were causing
(03:10):
quite a lot of harm in the background anyway, they were just some
like physical things. We have terrible towels at Pittsburgh games. So kind
of like hitting people with those... There was a lot of verbal abuse
and things like that. A lot of drinking it seemed to be happening.
Actually, at one point, one of these two guys fell
(03:30):
and hit his head. I remember kind of just jumping into action and
trying to like assist with holding his head, making sure he was stable.
And then coming back to my seat after security was called,
and then actually those guys were removed from the game. And it wasn't until
following the game, walking home, walking back to my car, if you know
Pittsburgh, there's not a whole lot of parking. So we had to park, probably
(03:53):
like a 30 minute walk away from the stadium. So we had a
walk ahead of us and we actually, out of the corner of our
eyes, we see these two guys that were at the game,
the one guy that had fell and they were causing all this harm
at the game. And before I even really realized what I was doing,
I remember just like the looks in their eyes of like recognizing who
we were. And they actually said, out loud, you are the girl that
(04:17):
got us kicked out. And I was like,
that's not quite right. That might be what they remember. I don't know
that they remembered a lot, right? So I just remember as we're walking
away and they're kind of heckling us, I turned to my friend who's
another female, and I was like, "Just keep an eye out because that this
(04:38):
doesn't feel right," and they followed us. We turned around maybe a few
minutes later to find that they were following us, which initially was,
just a scary feeling. We're like, oh, well maybe it's just an isolated
thing. We told them to, we turned around, told them to stop.
We continued walking with some other people, but they continued to follow
us. There were times where they ducked behind. They went ahead of us
(05:00):
ducked behind a building waiting for us to pass by.
There was one point towards the end where one of them was like hiding
very close to the sidewalk, and so all, and it's dark out,
right? It's after a game, a night game.
So a lot of like fear based intimidation tactics. There was heckling involved
name calling, like all those things that go along with it,
(05:21):
but just kind of the psychological harm that that produced. I just remember
just being, totally in that survival mode and just thinking,
back on it too, I think about how those after effects really lingered,
right? Like, you think about it after we got in the car,
we had our cortisol levels spiked, all those things. But I remember just
(05:45):
like coming down from that too and thinking, like, thinking that we were
being followed in the car, even though that was well after we had
seen them last. I remember not being able to sleep well that night,
all these things. And these are really, these are probably really similar
kind of symptoms that folks of repeated stalking also feel. But I am, I
(06:05):
can't imagine how that would be amplified, after like a pattern of stalking.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing, Jaime, and sharing your experience
of what that looked like, what that felt like, what,
how that all played out. And I think it was important for you
to note that like, yeah, this is how they were at the game,
(06:25):
and then afterwards, this is what they remembered, right? Because sometimes
that happens is that what actually happened and what people remembered can
be very different. So thank you so much for sharing. So I know
you started talking about people who experience multiple episodes of stalking
or multiple incidences of stalking. How prevalent is stalking in the United
(06:50):
States? Yeah, I think the statistics that are probably the most accurate
come from the national intimate partner in sexual violence survey. So this
is like a national level survey. And 1 in 17 men have experienced
stalking in their lifetimes at any point in time. One in six women
(07:10):
and 1 in 17 men. And they also share
that stalking starts early, right? So about 54% of female victims,
41 of male victims experienced stalking before they turned 25.
And I think the other statistics states that the most prevalent ages to
be stalked are 18 to 24 year old victims.
(07:34):
However, I think it's important to talk about how this data might not
be fully accurate, right? Stop stalking us shares that stalking is often
not reported. And so in that way, data's not gonna be accurate,
right? They ask that victims report their stalking crimes when they can,
because even if victims don't get the individual help that they need,
it really could help inform data and the future work, right?
(07:58):
Advocating for stalking victims. If we can show these are the real numbers
and how prevalent this is and dangerous it is, that can help in
that advocacy work. Yeah. And like you said, bringing awareness that this
does happen and that it's not like just a few people that it
might happen to or a certain age group that it might happen to,
(08:18):
like this does happen to a lot of people. And just,
yeah, like you said, bringing awareness and advocacy to stalking.
Thank you. You talked a little bit about what you were aware of
or what happened during your experience with stalking. Are there other signs
of stalking or other things that people could be aware of that that
(08:38):
might raise some red flags for them or that might make them be
like, Hmm, that's interesting. Are there any signs that you say? Yeah, that's
not, that's not right. What's going on? Yeah.
Yeah. And I think just because, just remembering this, that the definition
of stalking is also just incomplete and difficult because it can happen
(09:00):
in so many ways. I think that's the same thing with remembering where
stalking can happen, right? It happens anywhere people are, right? So that
can be like in person, like for us post
football game, but also like, I mean, it can happen at your home,
in your personal life, at work, in your community,
even on the phone, right? Cell phones. And then thinking about phones as
(09:24):
well, just that online and virtual piece, right? Social media. I think I
hear a lot of cases about victims that are stalked via email,
chat sites, video gaming, like all those places online, should be thought
about, right? And in the case of any victimization as well as stalking,
I immediately had a bad feeling when we ran into those guys outside
(09:48):
of the game when I saw them recognize us and then recognize that
they assumed it was our fault that they had got kicked out of
the game, that I knew something was wrong. And I don't know if
that's a gut feeling, if that's me recognizing something that was out there,
but I remember literally turning to my friend as we walked away and
said, "Keep an eye out behind us because those guys could follow us."
(10:10):
And they did. They did follow us. So like in retrospect,
thinking back, and I've definitely done a lot of that thinking back,
I think we really used all the resources we had available to us
that night, maybe short of calling the police, which I know we would've
if we had needed to because we had told them that we would.
But we asked for help from people around us multiple times.
(10:33):
We had no issue raising our voices. My friend actually yelled at one
point to get everyone's attention in the area. We never walked alone,
and we had our phones ready to call for additional help if needed.
In hindsight, I think, something that could have been helpful was maybe
we could have recorded on our phone. That could have been helpful as
(10:55):
like evidence if we had needed it later on. But I also think,
if you're recording someone, it feels like a deterrent, right?
And maybe location sharing too, right? Like if we had shared our location
with a safe person, I think that could have been helpful as well,
if not just for peace of mind, but also just having that connection
(11:15):
available should anything worse happen. I've done a lot of thinking too
when I was thinking about this question. Oh, there were so many things
that did, and so many people that did.
But I will say that trying to reason and utilizing logic with the
perpetrators was not helpful at all. I remember at one point we were
(11:36):
stopped, trying to get people to stay with us. And
I had said to these two men, I'm gonna call the police if
you continue to follow us. I don't wanna do that, but I will.
And then I started to plead like you have to know,
like maybe if I put this into words and I said,
"Are you seriously going to follow two girls alone
(11:56):
in the dark? Like obviously this isn't okay, right?"
But that didn't, it didn't do anything for us,
and they continued to follow us. Logic wasn't something that came into play,
or was helpful. And I think that can happen probably for a multitude
of reasons, right? Like whatever reasons there might be for people to perpetrate
(12:17):
violence, mental health, substance use, the general nature of violence and
power and oppression, the need to control all those things,
being at play reasoning was not something that worked for us.
And often we hear it doesn't work for other victims of stalking as
well. Thank you so much for sharing that, Jaime. And you mentioned that
(12:38):
you weren't a, like, there were other people around you, but you were
technically alone on this journey back to your car.
I'm thinking about like, if there were other people around you or,
if other people might have seen this, like what role do bystanders play
in this or play in seeing stalking happen in front of them?
(13:01):
Absolutely. I think, at least in my situation, bystanders were everything
for us that in hindsight, we didn't use if it had not been
the case. And honestly, I think that was the highlight
of that experience for me, just being able to see how supportive and
caring and helpful other people can be in those situations.
(13:24):
My friend and I jumped in with a couple that held our arms
while we were, walking with us. I remember the boyfriend calling out the
guys, at one point towards the end of the incidents, a group of
like rather tall people, they actually held up the two guys.
This was right after they were hiding. 'Cause I remember my friend had
(13:45):
said the, this is when she yelled loudly, like, "These guys are following
us and we need help." And one of the tall people were like,
"Do you mean that one over there?" And like pointed to the guy
hiding behind the bus stall, like, yeah, gosh, like, can't even make it
up. Like, and they created a barrier that which allowed us to walk
away with another couple towards our car while the guys were kind of, they
(14:08):
were just talking with them and creating that kind of sort of distraction.
And honestly, the validation alone was something that I didn't know I needed
in that moment, but in retrospect, it was so reassuring in such a
scary moment, right? Like, I can't believe this is happening. This is happening.
You're not alone, right? That validation was so, so helpful.
(14:29):
And I think aside from maybe those things for us, I think about
just bystanders in general, in like an in person stalking incident.
I think offering to record for a bystander could be helpful.
Even offering distractions in the moment, like those guys did for us,
the tall folks I should say. And then like after the fact too, bystanders
(14:51):
can be really helpful, right? Like if they wanna stay to speak to
law enforcement with the victims, or even maybe write a statement on the
victim's behalf. Those things can be really helpful in building a case
for a victim of stalking, especially because we know it can often be
difficult to prosecute. I will mention too, I'll put a plugin for Defend
Yourself. They do really good interactive trainings, for bystander intervention,
(15:15):
but they also have a lot of good written resources for bystanders as
well. Thank you so much, Jaime. And I'm so glad that you got
that validation. I feel like a lot of times that's one thing that's
missing in a lot of different situations and scenarios for victims,
that there isn't that reassurance that like, this is wrong and it's like,
(15:37):
this should not be happening to you. And I'm so glad that you
had that validation and people being like, oh,
okay, I hear you saying that you like you are being stalked or people
are following you and that's not okay. How can I jump in?
Are you talking about them? Okay, like, let's see what we feel comfortable
doing and feel like we're able to do in that situation to help
(16:00):
you out. And I think we forget that bystanders, people who are around
us can also play a part as big or as small as they
feel comfortable doing. And I think you provided a
lot of of great information about what that can look like,
what that can sound like, what people are comfortable doing. Thank you.
That is, it's such, such a good point, Valerie, too. I think that
(16:23):
often, like, we think, oh, like as a bystander I have to do
X, Y, and Z, or, and it makes us really uncomfortable,
right? But there are so many smaller things, or maybe not even smaller
things, but just different types of styles of things that you can do.
Like, if you don't feel like you can say something to
the stalkers, can you get somebody else that can, can you flag down
(16:47):
a police car? Can you just walk around and be like a witness,
right? To kind of keep an eye on things, 'cause that can be
helpful too, right? There's so many different levels of intervention.
Yeah. Or like pretending to be friends with somebody or like jumping in,
like you said, the couple did for you and allowing you both to
grab their arms or like, there are different ways, right? And they don't
(17:10):
have to interact with the harm doers or people who are perpetrating.
Like you can do different levels of what you're comfortable with.
And I think we forget that sometimes it's just being humans.
Like I have to go above and beyond
to do everything that I can. And it's like,
oh, but is that safe for me? Or
(17:30):
do I feel like I am someone who is very confrontational or,
do I feel like I can say something or is it better for
me to pretend to be friends with the people or, pull them in
a different direction or, different things like that.
Exactly. So, you mentioned your experience at a rape crisis center.
(17:52):
We also work with victim advocacy groups at PCAR.
What can those groups do? What could they do to support victims?
How can they work within their communities? Is there different resources
that might be helpful? Yes. So many, I mean, I think they're building,
right? Like the advocacy is there, and we're working towards getting more
(18:15):
awareness and funding behind it, right? And so I mentioned Stop Stalking
Us. Stop Stalking Us is an antis stocking advocacy, nonprofit. And on their
website, they know that they're devoted to creating community for those
impacted by stalking and its aftermath. Really important, changing society's
perceptions of this dangerous, violent, and often invisible crime and making
(18:37):
meaningful change at the legislative level, right? So there's like all these
kind of pieces to that advocacy, but I wanted to mention that Stop
Stalking Us, recommends that each victim work with a local victim advocacy
center. So that could be a rape crisis center
in your county. And one of the big proponents of
this work should be safety planning together. Of course, it's important
(19:01):
to note that each safety plan's gonna be different from one stalking victim
to the next, because each stalking situation is so different and complex,
but their website offers many resources that advocates and victims can use
utilize together as well. Things like example, incident logs to keep track
of each stalking incident. They share digital security resources, lots of
(19:25):
apps for phones and then other security measures as well. There's just a
plethora of information on there. And I think
we can't talk about advocates helping with like safety planning without
also talking about how important it is for victims of stalking to find
either an advocate, a counselor, a friend, a teacher, whoever that might
(19:46):
be, just some other supportive person during their victimization,
and afterwards, because stalking really can be such an isolating crime.
Like it's kind of literally the nature of it, right? Is
this piece of kind of loneliness and personal ness and it really can
hugely affect mental and emotional health of survivors.
(20:09):
Thank you so much, Jaime. Those sound like amazing resources and ones that
I think would be helpful no matter what age group you're in or
where you might be located. Like if you're on a college campus or
maybe you're just living your life in a big old city,
whatever it might be. They sound like really beneficial resources. And for
folks who are listening, we'll add that information into
(20:30):
our notes for you to access. Jaime, thank you so much for joining
us to talk about stalking, sharing your experience, and sharing a lot of
wonderful information for folks. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me.
And just remember that there is no one look to a stalking survivor.
It can happen to anybody, right? And so if this is happening to
(20:52):
you, you're not alone and there's people out there that can help.
That's all the time we have today. But thanks for listening to this
episode of PA Centered. You can learn more and read the stories of
victims at Stop Stalking Us website, stopstalkingus.com. You can check out
more on our website at www.PCAR respecttogether.org. Bye everybody. Bye.
(21:22):
Any user opinions expressed on PA centered by staff or their guests are
solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or
PCARs funders.
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