November 2, 2023 • 22 mins
This episode we are joined by Marli Mayon, Training Projects Coordinator at PCAR. Marli discusses the history of reproductive justice, how it connects to the sexual violence movement, and ways people can promote and handle pushback about reproductive justice. Marli also provides listeners with resources to learn more.
Show Notes
Sister Song -- https://www.sistersong.net/
Killing the Black Body by Dorothy E. Roberts -- https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/155575/killing-the-black-body-by-dorothy-roberts/
We Testify on Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/wetestify/?hl=en
Planned Parenthood -- https://www.plannedparenthood.org/
Sex Ed is a Reproductive Justice Issue -- https://urge.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Sex-Ed-RJ-Fact-Sheet.pdf
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part
of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse, and assault.
Each episode we will take on a topic or current event to help
spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free
from sexual violence. Hi, I'm Mallory Michel. I use she/her pronouns,
(00:35):
and I am the Prevention and Evaluation Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition
Against Rape. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Marley Mayon to
learn and talk about reproductive justice. Hi, I'm Marley Mayon. I use she/her
pronouns, and I also work at the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape as
the training projects coordinator. I'm also a birth doula, a newly trained
(00:56):
birth doula and a reproductive justice advocate broadly.
In my professional work within the anti sexual violence movement, I'm most
interested in topics of reproductive justice and how it intersects with
sexual violence and this overarching issue of bodily autonomy and oppression.
I'm excited to talk more about the nuance of reproductive justice.
(01:16):
Thanks so much for being here, Marley. We're excited to have you.
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited too. Of course.
So, for our first question, can you tell us what reproductive justice is
for those who don't know? Yeah. So SisterSong redefines reproductive justice
as the human right to maintain personal bodily autonomy.
I mentioned SisterSong because they're really important leaders in the reproductive
(01:40):
justice movement. A lot of the women who came together to
start reproductive justice and develop this concept went on to found SisterSong.
So they're definitely a great resource and folks to be aware of in
this movement. But, so essentially this idea of the right to maintain personal
bodily autonomy means the right to choose to have children, to choose not
(02:03):
to have children and to parent the children folks do choose to have
in safe and sustainable communities. And so safe and sustainable communities
really means communities that have access to comprehensive sex education,
access to contraceptives, reproductive healthcare. And it also really goes
back to just a trauma informed understanding of what pregnancy, birth postpartum
(02:25):
are and why it's so important we have laws and policies that really
govern the... Yeah, I guess just a trauma informed understanding of pregnancy,
birth, and postpartum. Thank you so much, Marley. So you mentioned SisterSong
and how they came to really find reproductive justice and define reproductive
(02:46):
justice. How did they come about to be an organization that is really
well known for reproductive justice? Yeah, so in 1994, so mid nineties,
a group of 12 black women came together
to really address the nuance of reproductive health.
So the conversations that were really happening in the mainstream,
(03:06):
in the United States as it related to reproductive health really centered
wealthy middle class white women and their experiences with reproductive
care. So it really subjected this conversation to this binary kind of pro
life, pro choice, whereas the women who started reproductive justice really
recognized that the issue of reproductive justice and care and prenatal
(03:30):
health and all those things was beyond just this pro life versus pro
choice. Folks like Loretta Ross, who I name drop as often as I
can 'cause I was able to take a class from her when I
was an undergraduate at Arizona State, who's very much a grassroots kind
of leader and convener of people and someone who wanted the mainstream to
(03:51):
understand the real life material conditions for black women who were pregnant,
parenting, all those things. And so they created reproductive justice
to really take into account factors like income, housing access,
the criminal justice system, all these systems and realities that impact
(04:12):
people and the way they're able to parent and care for themselves as
it relates to reproductive care. So really kind of a human centered approach
they would talk about. The idea of reproductive justice is this combining
of reproductive care and social justice. And so like I said,
just like a overall human centered approach to understanding pregnancy,
(04:34):
birth, all the things related to that. Yeah, that sounds a lot like
when we talk about oppression and sexual violence and
how power is involved in everything. And if power is affecting one system,
it's really hard to break through other systems.
Exactly. Yep. Yeah. So what does reproductive justice look like now?
(04:59):
You said that they started in the mid nineties, I mean, that was
almost 30 years ago. I'm sure things have changed now with technology and
just how far people can reach things. What does it look like now?
Yeah, I mean, I imagine it's a concept that's a lot more accessible
to folks because of things like social media and technology.
(05:20):
I think it's... I mean, I wanna say now more than ever,
but I kind of think reproductive justice has always been really important
when we look at history. I think just with
the overturning of Roe v. Wade, we can see the way these
fundamental rights when it comes to reproductive justice and care are really
under attack in harmful ways. Black maternal mortality rates are really
(05:43):
disproportionate in the US I think more than any other kind of developed
nation, if you will. And there's a really great documentary that I think
came out in 2020 or 2021. It's called Aftershock, that really dives into
black maternal mortality rates and makes the case for why reproductive justice
is so important, information on the way systems
(06:06):
respond to and handle black birthing people, the real negligence that's
happening, which is why these rates are so high.
So yeah, I think it's an important thing for all of us to
have buy in on, to understand, to look for opportunities to discuss.
There's a lot of nuance to it. And I think just like in
the '90s when they were trying to get beyond pro life versus pro
(06:28):
choice, I think that's a lot of what we're up against still to today.
It's more than just these binary system of looking at things,
but it's what are the conditions for people who choose to have babies,
who choose not to have babies? And how do systems
create harm within that process? Yeah. Thank you so much. You touched on
a lot of really important things that I know is happening now in
(06:51):
our world. And I think it provides a nice background for folks of
why these are so important, how we got to where we are now
and why people are really trying to make these things more normal than
just things of the past. Exactly. Yeah. This is stuff, and I'll probably
talk about this more later, but I think it's stuff everyone needs to
(07:14):
know about. We are all literally so impacted by pregnancy and birth regardless
of our personal decision for ourselves to have that or have a family
that is created based on pregnancy and birth. We are products of pregnancy
and birth. And so to not know it and to not understand it,
I think grounds for why we see this policy treated as such a
(07:36):
frivolous thing, something that isn't so important when people like me,
people who I think really understand it, recognize this is healthcare,
this is fundamental really important things. And so I think talking about
it and understanding it are important first steps in that.
Yeah. And that not everybody has the same experiences
in so many different ways, and I think that's the really
(08:01):
important thing to know about reproductive justice is that it doesn't look
the same for everybody and this is why.
So kind of going off of, I mentioned earlier with sexual violence.
How does reproductive justice relate to the sexual violence movement? You
kind of talked a little bit about it, but can you talk a
bit more? Yeah. So I really think both of these movements center around
(08:22):
this idea of bodily autonomy, which maybe sounds like a grand concept,
but really is just this idea that you get to sit,
you have agency and access over your body, what you choose for your
body, who else has access to your body.
And we also know the reproductive justice movement, the sexual violence
movement, anti sexual violence movement are both really born out of this
(08:45):
kind of violence. Yeah. Thank you so much.
And I love that you brought in the history of gynecology 'cause we
don't know a lot about the people who identify as female,
like their bodies, but what we do know is because of
the harm and violence that has been caused against black women and their
bodies, and knowing what we know about how Reproductive Justice was formed
(09:10):
and SisterSong, I mean, it sounds like it's just really helping black women
get their power back, which I think is incredibly important in where we
are in the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, thank you.
Thank you. Are there any strategies that you could recommend for folks
to promote reproductive justice? Whether at the local level, at the state
(09:34):
level, kind of any way that they could feel comfortable being like,
hey, this is super important, I got to make sure people know about
this. Yeah, I mean, I think a really important starting place is just
the education piece. So having comprehensive education that includes sex
education and includes understanding of health and our bodies and reproductive
(09:58):
justice and where babies come from. All these things that I think
research tells us can be taught at different levels
to support different levels of understanding and learning
are just really important starting places. I think
going back to what I said, I think because
as a society we don't know and understand the nuance of reproductive justice
(10:19):
and care and all the things, it's why we have these harmful policies
that don't take into account the realities of being someone who is pregnant
and birthing and caring for children in a world that isn't set up
to support people to do that. Or at least a country that isn't.
Certainly a lot of other countries know what they're doing when it comes
to taking care of birthing people and the babies.
(10:40):
So yeah, I think that education piece is so important.
Certainly policies as a result of that, things like
workplaces having more comprehensive and inclusive parental leave policies.
This is something I feel like I'm in an age where me and
a lot of my friends and colleagues are in that stage of wanting
to start a family. And so many of us are up against issues
(11:03):
just within our workplace to support that. And so
I don't know. I think just having conversations about these things,
about these issues, seeing what kind of mainstream advocates can get on
board with this is helpful. I think we talked a little bit about
social media. I think that's such a tool for disseminating information
and understanding the impact of reproductive justice and why it's so important.
(11:29):
So that's kind of a long winded way of saying, I think conversations
and education and the idea that those would impact things like policy
on broad levels, on smaller levels is a strategy I think we can
all think about. Yeah, that's great. And I love that you talked a
lot about education and not just education of folks that already know kind
(11:51):
of what's happening, but education across the board, like from
the youngest ones to the oldest ones. I know in sex ed we
talk from birth till death and really making sure that we're covering all
of those spans of life for people to know what's happening with their
bodies, to know what's going to happen with their bodies and what to
expect. And also just how how much childbirth can impact the body.
(12:19):
There a lot that goes into that. Exactly. And I think for so
many people, it's like, not until you're pregnant and you have these nine
months of crunch time to learn about all these things. And there's so
much to know, there's so much like you're saying, about your body to
understand. And part of having that bodily autonomy that access is knowing
like, what's going on with my body? What can I expect from this?
(12:42):
Is this normal? Is this not normal? When do I need to be
concerned? And especially when we think about the
mortality rates of pregnant people in general, especially black maternal
mortality, like things to look out for. Blood pressure is a big thing.
What's cause for concern? When do I need to be concerned?
How can, you know, having access to a doula, a lot of people
don't even know what a doula is, but
(13:05):
the way doulas and having that kind of advocate can support us in
these intimidating interactions within systems where we can second guess
ourselves. 'Cause we don't really know what we're talking about and leave
it to the professionals. Just this whole line of thinking that
isn't set up to support the pregnant person and making decisions that they
feel informed on, that are best for them and their and their baby.
(13:27):
So I think the education piece is such a crucial
component of this and making the case for why education like this is
important, I think is part of it too.
Yeah. It's making me think a lot about like, you don't know what
you don't know until you're in it or through it and you're like,
wait, I was supposed to ask that. Or like, oh my gosh,
(13:47):
this is what's happening to my body, or this is what I'm supposed
to be experiencing. I mean, you don't know. And if
people aren't comfortable even sharing that information, whether that's
from family members or friends or other people who they're close with that
can share that, I mean, that seems like a lot of information that
could be overlooked or lost or just not known.
(14:11):
Yes. And you're right, there's a lot of taboo I think we're still
fighting against within this of just like this
women empowerment, though we know it's not always women who we're talking
about when we talk about pregnancy and birth, a lot of times we
are talking about women. And so I think the way
that challenge is this rigid gender norm of
women, like I said, and being in this decision making
(14:32):
capacity and making decisions that's best for them. And so there's a lot
entangled in this, just wanting to have access to your body and making
decisions for your body. And so it's nuance, it's hard to
have a quick solution 'cause I think it's just getting people to understand
that nuance. Like you're saying, you don't know what you don't know.
(14:53):
And so just understanding what do we need to know about this
and how can we make this learning... I like what you said about
from birth till death, with the idea of comprehensive sex education.
This is part of that too. This is all, it's all, they all
have a relationship and it's just really important talking and learning
we need to do. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And talking about that with
(15:17):
needing to have these conversations and also just
the culture of our country right now, how can people navigate pushback or
resistance to these conversations or to reproductive justice in general?
Yeah, I think, I like to tell people in training spaces,
(15:38):
I think our best learning happens outside of our comfort zone.
And I think that really applies here too.
I think seeing what we have to learn and unlearn in this space.
A big one that I see a lot is just the idea of
using gender inclusive language when we're talking about pregnancy and birth.
It's just a fact, it's just a reality that people of all genders
have babies. It's like, it can't even be disputed. I hate to even
(16:01):
create space where it can be like a well, no.
That's not how it works. And so I think recognizing for you yourself,
maybe that language doesn't for you describe your experience. Like you could
say like, I'm a pregnant woman. If that's your gender identity,
if that's true to you. But recognizing when we're talking about this kind
(16:21):
of broadly, when we talk about pregnancy and birthing. It's totally encouraged
and kind and supportive and create space for all people who experience birth
and pregnancy to use that gender inclusive language.
I think that's something that people feel pregnancy and birth is womanhood
(16:42):
and equivalent to womanhood. And that can be true and also something we
can broaden and make inclusive to all people because that's just the reality
of it. So I think so much of the pushback comes from not
wanting to take the time to explore the nuance, get comfortable with the
uncomfortable, recognize there are things that we're just, we have better
(17:02):
language for than we did historically. And not this idea that this is
new and people like this didn't exist, all that kind of rhetoric, but
just we have better language and when we have better language,
we should use better language. So I think that's like an easy way
to have those conversations. I think... I'm trying to think of other opportunities
or pushback. It makes me also just think about going back to
(17:26):
parental leave policies. Really holding our workplaces accountable to having
inclusive parental leaves, especially when we're in fields and movements
that seem so tied to care and compassion.
I mean, I don't know, maybe that's like
I'm watering it down a little bit, but I just think there's so
(17:48):
many. Like when we think about, I think COVID times made us really aware
of the way the caring professions are so
needed and so undervalued. And I think not having comprehensive parental
policies continues that idea of undervaluing the caretakers of the world,
the people in these caring professions who need to be caring for themselves
(18:09):
and their families during times of pregnancy and birth. And so,
I don't know, I think welcoming opportunities to push back those types of
things if we're in positions of leadership where we can have those difficult
conversations, I think having them, 'cause there's certainly research out
there to make the case for why things like gender inclusive language are
important. Why having better policies around pregnant and birthing and newly
(18:35):
families who are newly established, having policies to support that
also supports them in the workplace. Not that that's like our end goal,
we're just trying to support people regardless of their
ability to perform productivity, I think. But yeah, I think all that to
say like welcoming opportunities for pushback and having those conversations
and having the research to back it 'cause it exists.
(18:57):
You said so many great things in that with talking about how
this is individualized. You were going, each person is going to have their
own feelings about the language they use for themselves. That doesn't mean
that we get to exclude all the other folks that we know experience
this or go through similar experiences. And then just talking about how
(19:19):
workplaces and you can't pour from an empty cup is really what I
was hearing you say. And there are times when
we don't feel comfortable to take that sick day or being like,
hey, I need to call it a day and it's only 10:00 AM. That's
so minimal compared to the impact of taking care of yourself,
(19:42):
taking care of your family, taking care of yourself after having a baby.
These big life events that happen that can get minimized essentially to
be something like, okay, well, you get this amount of time and then
we'll see you back here. But yeah, I think you talked about a
lot of great things and that being comfortable getting uncomfortable by
(20:04):
having those big conversations, learning something new, maybe using gender
inclusive language that you're not used to or really just being aware.
Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Are there any current
events and/or resources that come to mind? I know you talked about SisterSong
(20:25):
and Killing the Black Body. Is there anything else that could help folks
better understand reproductive justice and the connection to the sexual
violence movement? Yeah, so I know there's a lot of really great Instagram
accounts if you're on Instagram. We Testify is an account that I really
like and learn a lot from on Instagram.
I think Planned Parenthood has kind of a tricky origin story when it
(20:49):
comes to reproductive justice and Killing the Black Body will get all into
that nuance, which I think is really important. But I do think Planned
Parenthood can be a really good starting place for a lot of people.
They have a lot of really great resources, learning and otherwise just obviously
services they provide. So I think that's a good starting place for people.
I encourage folks to dig deeper. Once you've
(21:10):
gotten more into the reproductive justice movement, there's a resource that
we can link that talks about how sex education is the reproductive justice
issue. That really makes the connection on why
the relationship between these two things and how important this education
piece that I really think is the takeaway from all of this conversation,
(21:31):
can be started early and can be kind of intertwined with this conversation
around sex education. So yeah, I think there's a lot of different things
to explore on social media, a lot of people talking about these things
and certainly a lot of books and resources that I think one will
lead to another kind of thing. That's how I got really started in
the reproductive justice movement is I just was so interested in learning
(21:54):
more. And once again, recognizing the way all these things are connected
and recognizing how they're connected to the sexual violence movement and
this issue of power and oppression broadly, and birth and pregnancy is just
so... It's just my whole soapbox, it's such an important thing for us
to understand and be aware of, especially when we just think about,
I mean, literally the sustainability of humanity. Continuing on as people
(22:16):
we have to care for and understand how to care for ourselves and
pregnant people. And so yeah, I think there's kind of a variety of
places where you can kind of see where you are in the movement
and continue your learning. Yeah. Thank you so much Marley. Thank you so
much for joining us and talking about reproductive justice. I know you gave
(22:38):
a lot of amazing resources. We'll be sure to link those in our
show notes. So if you wanted to find out more, they're definitely there.
Again, Marley, thank you so much. Thanks Mallory. That's all the time we
have today. But thanks for listening to this episode of PA Centered.
You can learn more at www.pcar.org. If you or a loved one needs
(23:09):
help, a local sexual assault center is available 24/7. Call 1 888 772
7227 for more information or find your local center online at pcar.org.
Together we can end sexual violence. Any views or opinions expressed on
(23:31):
PA Centered by staff or their guests are solely their own and do
not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or PCAR's funders.
Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part
of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse, and assault.
Each episode we will take on a topic or current event to help
spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free
from sexual violence. Hi, I'm Mallory Michel. I use she/her pronouns,
(00:35):
and I am the Prevention and Evaluation Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition
Against Rape. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Marley Mayon to
learn and talk about reproductive justice. Hi, I'm Marley Mayon. I use she/her
pronouns, and I also work at the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape as
the training projects coordinator. I'm also a birth doula, a newly trained
(00:56):
birth doula and a reproductive justice advocate broadly.
In my professional work within the anti sexual violence movement, I'm most
interested in topics of reproductive justice and how it intersects with
sexual violence and this overarching issue of bodily autonomy and oppression.
I'm excited to talk more about the nuance of reproductive justice.
(01:16):
Thanks so much for being here, Marley. We're excited to have you.
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited too. Of course.
So, for our first question, can you tell us what reproductive justice is
for those who don't know? Yeah. So SisterSong redefines reproductive justice
as the human right to maintain personal bodily autonomy.
I mentioned SisterSong because they're really important leaders in the reproductive
(01:40):
justice movement. A lot of the women who came together to
start reproductive justice and develop this concept went on to found SisterSong.
So they're definitely a great resource and folks to be aware of in
this movement. But, so essentially this idea of the right to maintain personal
bodily autonomy means the right to choose to have children, to choose not
(02:03):
to have children and to parent the children folks do choose to have
in safe and sustainable communities. And so safe and sustainable communities
really means communities that have access to comprehensive sex education,
access to contraceptives, reproductive healthcare. And it also really goes
back to just a trauma informed understanding of what pregnancy, birth postpartum
(02:25):
are and why it's so important we have laws and policies that really
govern the... Yeah, I guess just a trauma informed understanding of pregnancy,
birth, and postpartum. Thank you so much, Marley. So you mentioned SisterSong
and how they came to really find reproductive justice and define reproductive
(02:46):
justice. How did they come about to be an organization that is really
well known for reproductive justice? Yeah, so in 1994, so mid nineties,
a group of 12 black women came together
to really address the nuance of reproductive health.
So the conversations that were really happening in the mainstream,
(03:06):
in the United States as it related to reproductive health really centered
wealthy middle class white women and their experiences with reproductive
care. So it really subjected this conversation to this binary kind of pro
life, pro choice, whereas the women who started reproductive justice really
recognized that the issue of reproductive justice and care and prenatal
(03:30):
health and all those things was beyond just this pro life versus pro
choice. Folks like Loretta Ross, who I name drop as often as I
can 'cause I was able to take a class from her when I
was an undergraduate at Arizona State, who's very much a grassroots kind
of leader and convener of people and someone who wanted the mainstream to
(03:51):
understand the real life material conditions for black women who were pregnant,
parenting, all those things. And so they created reproductive justice
to really take into account factors like income, housing access,
the criminal justice system, all these systems and realities that impact
(04:12):
people and the way they're able to parent and care for themselves as
it relates to reproductive care. So really kind of a human centered approach
they would talk about. The idea of reproductive justice is this combining
of reproductive care and social justice. And so like I said,
just like a overall human centered approach to understanding pregnancy,
(04:34):
birth, all the things related to that. Yeah, that sounds a lot like
when we talk about oppression and sexual violence and
how power is involved in everything. And if power is affecting one system,
it's really hard to break through other systems.
Exactly. Yep. Yeah. So what does reproductive justice look like now?
(04:59):
You said that they started in the mid nineties, I mean, that was
almost 30 years ago. I'm sure things have changed now with technology and
just how far people can reach things. What does it look like now?
Yeah, I mean, I imagine it's a concept that's a lot more accessible
to folks because of things like social media and technology.
(05:20):
I think it's... I mean, I wanna say now more than ever,
but I kind of think reproductive justice has always been really important
when we look at history. I think just with
the overturning of Roe v. Wade, we can see the way these
fundamental rights when it comes to reproductive justice and care are really
under attack in harmful ways. Black maternal mortality rates are really
(05:43):
disproportionate in the US I think more than any other kind of developed
nation, if you will. And there's a really great documentary that I think
came out in 2020 or 2021. It's called Aftershock, that really dives into
black maternal mortality rates and makes the case for why reproductive justice
is so important, information on the way systems
(06:06):
respond to and handle black birthing people, the real negligence that's
happening, which is why these rates are so high.
So yeah, I think it's an important thing for all of us to
have buy in on, to understand, to look for opportunities to discuss.
There's a lot of nuance to it. And I think just like in
the '90s when they were trying to get beyond pro life versus pro
(06:28):
choice, I think that's a lot of what we're up against still to today.
It's more than just these binary system of looking at things,
but it's what are the conditions for people who choose to have babies,
who choose not to have babies? And how do systems
create harm within that process? Yeah. Thank you so much. You touched on
a lot of really important things that I know is happening now in
(06:51):
our world. And I think it provides a nice background for folks of
why these are so important, how we got to where we are now
and why people are really trying to make these things more normal than
just things of the past. Exactly. Yeah. This is stuff, and I'll probably
talk about this more later, but I think it's stuff everyone needs to
(07:14):
know about. We are all literally so impacted by pregnancy and birth regardless
of our personal decision for ourselves to have that or have a family
that is created based on pregnancy and birth. We are products of pregnancy
and birth. And so to not know it and to not understand it,
I think grounds for why we see this policy treated as such a
(07:36):
frivolous thing, something that isn't so important when people like me,
people who I think really understand it, recognize this is healthcare,
this is fundamental really important things. And so I think talking about
it and understanding it are important first steps in that.
Yeah. And that not everybody has the same experiences
in so many different ways, and I think that's the really
(08:01):
important thing to know about reproductive justice is that it doesn't look
the same for everybody and this is why.
So kind of going off of, I mentioned earlier with sexual violence.
How does reproductive justice relate to the sexual violence movement? You
kind of talked a little bit about it, but can you talk a
bit more? Yeah. So I really think both of these movements center around
(08:22):
this idea of bodily autonomy, which maybe sounds like a grand concept,
but really is just this idea that you get to sit,
you have agency and access over your body, what you choose for your
body, who else has access to your body.
And we also know the reproductive justice movement, the sexual violence
movement, anti sexual violence movement are both really born out of this
(08:45):
kind of violence. Yeah. Thank you so much.
And I love that you brought in the history of gynecology 'cause we
don't know a lot about the people who identify as female,
like their bodies, but what we do know is because of
the harm and violence that has been caused against black women and their
bodies, and knowing what we know about how Reproductive Justice was formed
(09:10):
and SisterSong, I mean, it sounds like it's just really helping black women
get their power back, which I think is incredibly important in where we
are in the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, thank you.
Thank you. Are there any strategies that you could recommend for folks
to promote reproductive justice? Whether at the local level, at the state
(09:34):
level, kind of any way that they could feel comfortable being like,
hey, this is super important, I got to make sure people know about
this. Yeah, I mean, I think a really important starting place is just
the education piece. So having comprehensive education that includes sex
education and includes understanding of health and our bodies and reproductive
(09:58):
justice and where babies come from. All these things that I think
research tells us can be taught at different levels
to support different levels of understanding and learning
are just really important starting places. I think
going back to what I said, I think because
as a society we don't know and understand the nuance of reproductive justice
(10:19):
and care and all the things, it's why we have these harmful policies
that don't take into account the realities of being someone who is pregnant
and birthing and caring for children in a world that isn't set up
to support people to do that. Or at least a country that isn't.
Certainly a lot of other countries know what they're doing when it comes
to taking care of birthing people and the babies.
(10:40):
So yeah, I think that education piece is so important.
Certainly policies as a result of that, things like
workplaces having more comprehensive and inclusive parental leave policies.
This is something I feel like I'm in an age where me and
a lot of my friends and colleagues are in that stage of wanting
to start a family. And so many of us are up against issues
(11:03):
just within our workplace to support that. And so
I don't know. I think just having conversations about these things,
about these issues, seeing what kind of mainstream advocates can get on
board with this is helpful. I think we talked a little bit about
social media. I think that's such a tool for disseminating information
and understanding the impact of reproductive justice and why it's so important.
(11:29):
So that's kind of a long winded way of saying, I think conversations
and education and the idea that those would impact things like policy
on broad levels, on smaller levels is a strategy I think we can
all think about. Yeah, that's great. And I love that you talked a
lot about education and not just education of folks that already know kind
(11:51):
of what's happening, but education across the board, like from
the youngest ones to the oldest ones. I know in sex ed we
talk from birth till death and really making sure that we're covering all
of those spans of life for people to know what's happening with their
bodies, to know what's going to happen with their bodies and what to
expect. And also just how how much childbirth can impact the body.
(12:19):
There a lot that goes into that. Exactly. And I think for so
many people, it's like, not until you're pregnant and you have these nine
months of crunch time to learn about all these things. And there's so
much to know, there's so much like you're saying, about your body to
understand. And part of having that bodily autonomy that access is knowing
like, what's going on with my body? What can I expect from this?
(12:42):
Is this normal? Is this not normal? When do I need to be
concerned? And especially when we think about the
mortality rates of pregnant people in general, especially black maternal
mortality, like things to look out for. Blood pressure is a big thing.
What's cause for concern? When do I need to be concerned?
How can, you know, having access to a doula, a lot of people
don't even know what a doula is, but
(13:05):
the way doulas and having that kind of advocate can support us in
these intimidating interactions within systems where we can second guess
ourselves. 'Cause we don't really know what we're talking about and leave
it to the professionals. Just this whole line of thinking that
isn't set up to support the pregnant person and making decisions that they
feel informed on, that are best for them and their and their baby.
(13:27):
So I think the education piece is such a crucial
component of this and making the case for why education like this is
important, I think is part of it too.
Yeah. It's making me think a lot about like, you don't know what
you don't know until you're in it or through it and you're like,
wait, I was supposed to ask that. Or like, oh my gosh,
(13:47):
this is what's happening to my body, or this is what I'm supposed
to be experiencing. I mean, you don't know. And if
people aren't comfortable even sharing that information, whether that's
from family members or friends or other people who they're close with that
can share that, I mean, that seems like a lot of information that
could be overlooked or lost or just not known.
(14:11):
Yes. And you're right, there's a lot of taboo I think we're still
fighting against within this of just like this
women empowerment, though we know it's not always women who we're talking
about when we talk about pregnancy and birth, a lot of times we
are talking about women. And so I think the way
that challenge is this rigid gender norm of
women, like I said, and being in this decision making
(14:32):
capacity and making decisions that's best for them. And so there's a lot
entangled in this, just wanting to have access to your body and making
decisions for your body. And so it's nuance, it's hard to
have a quick solution 'cause I think it's just getting people to understand
that nuance. Like you're saying, you don't know what you don't know.
(14:53):
And so just understanding what do we need to know about this
and how can we make this learning... I like what you said about
from birth till death, with the idea of comprehensive sex education.
This is part of that too. This is all, it's all, they all
have a relationship and it's just really important talking and learning
we need to do. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And talking about that with
(15:17):
needing to have these conversations and also just
the culture of our country right now, how can people navigate pushback or
resistance to these conversations or to reproductive justice in general?
Yeah, I think, I like to tell people in training spaces,
(15:38):
I think our best learning happens outside of our comfort zone.
And I think that really applies here too.
I think seeing what we have to learn and unlearn in this space.
A big one that I see a lot is just the idea of
using gender inclusive language when we're talking about pregnancy and birth.
It's just a fact, it's just a reality that people of all genders
have babies. It's like, it can't even be disputed. I hate to even
(16:01):
create space where it can be like a well, no.
That's not how it works. And so I think recognizing for you yourself,
maybe that language doesn't for you describe your experience. Like you could
say like, I'm a pregnant woman. If that's your gender identity,
if that's true to you. But recognizing when we're talking about this kind
(16:21):
of broadly, when we talk about pregnancy and birthing. It's totally encouraged
and kind and supportive and create space for all people who experience birth
and pregnancy to use that gender inclusive language.
I think that's something that people feel pregnancy and birth is womanhood
(16:42):
and equivalent to womanhood. And that can be true and also something we
can broaden and make inclusive to all people because that's just the reality
of it. So I think so much of the pushback comes from not
wanting to take the time to explore the nuance, get comfortable with the
uncomfortable, recognize there are things that we're just, we have better
(17:02):
language for than we did historically. And not this idea that this is
new and people like this didn't exist, all that kind of rhetoric, but
just we have better language and when we have better language,
we should use better language. So I think that's like an easy way
to have those conversations. I think... I'm trying to think of other opportunities
or pushback. It makes me also just think about going back to
(17:26):
parental leave policies. Really holding our workplaces accountable to having
inclusive parental leaves, especially when we're in fields and movements
that seem so tied to care and compassion.
I mean, I don't know, maybe that's like
I'm watering it down a little bit, but I just think there's so
(17:48):
many. Like when we think about, I think COVID times made us really aware
of the way the caring professions are so
needed and so undervalued. And I think not having comprehensive parental
policies continues that idea of undervaluing the caretakers of the world,
the people in these caring professions who need to be caring for themselves
(18:09):
and their families during times of pregnancy and birth. And so,
I don't know, I think welcoming opportunities to push back those types of
things if we're in positions of leadership where we can have those difficult
conversations, I think having them, 'cause there's certainly research out
there to make the case for why things like gender inclusive language are
important. Why having better policies around pregnant and birthing and newly
(18:35):
families who are newly established, having policies to support that
also supports them in the workplace. Not that that's like our end goal,
we're just trying to support people regardless of their
ability to perform productivity, I think. But yeah, I think all that to
say like welcoming opportunities for pushback and having those conversations
and having the research to back it 'cause it exists.
(18:57):
You said so many great things in that with talking about how
this is individualized. You were going, each person is going to have their
own feelings about the language they use for themselves. That doesn't mean
that we get to exclude all the other folks that we know experience
this or go through similar experiences. And then just talking about how
(19:19):
workplaces and you can't pour from an empty cup is really what I
was hearing you say. And there are times when
we don't feel comfortable to take that sick day or being like,
hey, I need to call it a day and it's only 10:00 AM. That's
so minimal compared to the impact of taking care of yourself,
(19:42):
taking care of your family, taking care of yourself after having a baby.
These big life events that happen that can get minimized essentially to
be something like, okay, well, you get this amount of time and then
we'll see you back here. But yeah, I think you talked about a
lot of great things and that being comfortable getting uncomfortable by
(20:04):
having those big conversations, learning something new, maybe using gender
inclusive language that you're not used to or really just being aware.
Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Are there any current
events and/or resources that come to mind? I know you talked about SisterSong
(20:25):
and Killing the Black Body. Is there anything else that could help folks
better understand reproductive justice and the connection to the sexual
violence movement? Yeah, so I know there's a lot of really great Instagram
accounts if you're on Instagram. We Testify is an account that I really
like and learn a lot from on Instagram.
I think Planned Parenthood has kind of a tricky origin story when it
(20:49):
comes to reproductive justice and Killing the Black Body will get all into
that nuance, which I think is really important. But I do think Planned
Parenthood can be a really good starting place for a lot of people.
They have a lot of really great resources, learning and otherwise just obviously
services they provide. So I think that's a good starting place for people.
I encourage folks to dig deeper. Once you've
(21:10):
gotten more into the reproductive justice movement, there's a resource that
we can link that talks about how sex education is the reproductive justice
issue. That really makes the connection on why
the relationship between these two things and how important this education
piece that I really think is the takeaway from all of this conversation,
(21:31):
can be started early and can be kind of intertwined with this conversation
around sex education. So yeah, I think there's a lot of different things
to explore on social media, a lot of people talking about these things
and certainly a lot of books and resources that I think one will
lead to another kind of thing. That's how I got really started in
the reproductive justice movement is I just was so interested in learning
(21:54):
more. And once again, recognizing the way all these things are connected
and recognizing how they're connected to the sexual violence movement and
this issue of power and oppression broadly, and birth and pregnancy is just
so... It's just my whole soapbox, it's such an important thing for us
to understand and be aware of, especially when we just think about,
I mean, literally the sustainability of humanity. Continuing on as people
(22:16):
we have to care for and understand how to care for ourselves and
pregnant people. And so yeah, I think there's kind of a variety of
places where you can kind of see where you are in the movement
and continue your learning. Yeah. Thank you so much Marley. Thank you so
much for joining us and talking about reproductive justice. I know you gave
(22:38):
a lot of amazing resources. We'll be sure to link those in our
show notes. So if you wanted to find out more, they're definitely there.
Again, Marley, thank you so much. Thanks Mallory. That's all the time we
have today. But thanks for listening to this episode of PA Centered.
You can learn more at www.pcar.org. If you or a loved one needs
(23:09):
help, a local sexual assault center is available 24/7. Call 1 888 772
7227 for more information or find your local center online at pcar.org.
Together we can end sexual violence. Any views or opinions expressed on
(23:31):
PA Centered by staff or their guests are solely their own and do
not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or PCAR's funders.
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