October 4, 2024 • 34 mins
In this listener-driven Q&A episode of Paid to Create, we break down the art of building a loyal fan base by staying true to your brand’s core values, rather than trying to please everyone. From crafting bold messages to leveraging shared beliefs—even the controversial ones—we explore how standing firm in what you believe can create strong, lasting communities.
We dig into practical marketing essentials across different platforms, like why Apple’s brand loyalty crushes Android’s and what really works for Facebook and Instagram ads. Expect actionable insights that will help you grab attention, avoid common mistakes, and optimize your SaaS business’s ad performance.
Here’s a peek at the questions we tackle:
- How do you appeal to both hardcore fans and people on the fence?
- How do you balance hype with tangible value when launching a new product or service?
- How can I bring certainty into my SaaS business marketing when features keep evolving?
- What metrics should I track in Facebook and Instagram ads, and what rookie mistakes should I avoid?
Whether you're a business owner or just getting started, this episode delivers real-world strategies to strengthen your brand, attract the right customers, and drive growth. Tune in on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Paid to
Create.
Today we're going to beanswering your questions.
Hopefully we have some goodanswers.
We'll find out 50-50.
Yeah, so we'll dive right inthis.
First one is from Kelly inNashville.
Both of you have talked aboutthe importance of connecting
with the middle, whether inpolitics or in business.
What's your best tip forgrowing a business when you're
(00:22):
trying to appeal to bothhardcore fans and people on the
fence?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What does she mean?
Hardcore fans.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So my interpretation of the question is just like you
know, when you You're verypopular, I get it.
You've got your core group ofpeople and then you've got the
people on the outside thatyou're trying to attract in and
would be the middle Right.
So it's like you've you've gotyour first first responders or
your you know, first buyers orwhatever, the people who when
(00:53):
you put a product out, theyimmediately go I want that,
right.
And then you have the peoplewho kind of wait and they kind
of see they're they're a littlebit more cautious in their
decisions or they're not as bigof a fan of you as everybody
else, right?
So what do you do to satisfyboth ends of the spectrum when
building the business?
So for me, like the way I lookat it, is that you should
(01:16):
actually just build yourbusiness for the core and the
right people will be attractedto it.
I think the big mistake peoplemake is trying to please
everybody and trying to thinklike that.
I think the big mistake peoplemake is trying to please
everybody and trying to thinklike that.
I think that in today's world,with the internet and the
ability to reach people all overthe world at the push of a
button, there's enough peopleout there that you can
(01:37):
essentially be very specific inthe way you talk to your
audience, market to youraudience, that you literally
push away anybody that doesn'talign with that.
And take like a t-shirt company, for example.
Your slogan is it matters,right, and if you are timid in
(01:59):
what you're saying, it's one ofthose things.
Just say what you mean, right,and so you'll see.
There's that company t-shirtsfrom from hell.
I would never buy a t-shirtfrom them, but there's a lot of
people who who want that.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They enjoy the offense of the shirt, right it's
offensive, it goes the furthestyou can go but it's a
successful company.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So think of all the people that are offended, all
the people that would never buya t-shirt.
Yet there's enough people thatpeople buy, right?
They don't have to use PC wordsor dance around the subject.
I mean, they're pretty graphic,they're pretty in your face and
yet they still make money.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
They probably sell spaghetti strap shirts.
Why don't you just launch thet-shirts from heaven?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Why don't you just launch the t-shirts from heaven.
Well, that's the other end ofthe spectrum, right, you got
people walking around withshirts that have quotes from the
Bible on.
That's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I would do and, honestly, I would believe in it
and think it would be helpful.
So I'd be like, okay, they'reover there, I'm going to do the
opposite.
That's exactly what I would do.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The t-shirts from heaven that have the biblical
scriptures that people relate to.
That's awesome.
And then in the middle is just,people are going to wear
regular t-shirts.
I wouldn't worry about that.
Right, there's more, and thereason is is that a lot of times
, um, the more polarizing youare and I don't even know if
it's polarizing the more certainyou are in in in what you stand
for and what your companyrepresents, the easier it is for
people to align with that.
Right, because you, you havethose, those, those, uh, belief
(03:21):
systems.
And so if you're someone wholikes to bargain, hunt and and
get the cheapest deal, you'reprobably not going to go stay at
a, a, an expensive hotel, right, you're going to, you're going
to do a hotels tonight, lastminute deal, whatever, you're
looking for the cheapest in thearea, because that's, that's
what matters to you.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
On, the other end of the six out of the running, just
in general.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
But.
And then on the other end ofthe six out of the running, just
in general but, and then on theother end of the spectrum,
you've got someone whom price isin an option they're going to
be looking at what's the most,what's the best experience they
can have, um, or what's the mostlike like luxurious place that
they can back in to feel acertain way right, like because
they're more about the feel ofthe hotel than they are about
just the price of the hotel.
So I think, when you look at,you know people in the middle,
and how do you get them to go?
(04:09):
Either way, I think that,underlying, we all have things
we gravitate towards, we don'tgravitate to, and so when, when
you see someone standing intheir um, certainty, um and
essentially being polarizingbecause if you're saying one
thing, someone else, like ifyou're wearing a t-shirt from
hell, you're going to havepeople who are offended.
If you're wearing a Bible quote, you're going to have people
(04:30):
who are offended.
So the thing is, though youwant, you're going to attract
more of those people the moreyou lean into it than you are if
you wishy washy or try toplease.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
How do you think the coexist sticker is on all those
cars?
All those religions are equallyoffended by the sticker being
next to each other.
I don't know how it got made.
You're offending everybody atonce.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, there's shared belief in that right, there's a
lot of people who believe all ofthat is ridiculous, and so
that's all those people withthose stickers, right, and it's
kind of, again, people like tobelong to something that they
identify as, again, people liketo belong to something that they
identify as we are inherently.
You know, go through most ofour life labeling ourselves as
(05:10):
certain things when in realitywe're just human.
You know, everything else is alearned experience.
That's your high school kittycat in California.
But my point is that that's alladded on as you grow, right?
When you're first born, youdon't have any of these labels,
you're just a baby.
You know, that's your firstlabel.
I guess you're a baby, right.
(05:35):
And then as you grow, you knowterrible twos like we
immediately add.
We add labels as we go, but weidentify as things and some of
those labels we don't want, someof those labels we do want and
I think that you know, even as Iapproach my 40s, like I'm still
looking at who do I want tobecome Like?
What version of me when you growup?
Well, what's the best versionof me?
Right, what's the best versionof me?
And that leans me to beingattracted to other people who
(05:55):
are on that path and listeningto them and paying attention.
And I reject some things, Iaccept some things.
If you look at my circle,there's a lot more commonalities
between people I'm listening tothan there is.
You know differences, becauseI'm attracted to a certain
mindset, I'm attracted to acertain work ethic.
That doesn't mean I think theother people are wrong, it's
just if and I say this all thetime you have to protect your
(06:16):
inputs.
Right.
And for me, if I want a certainthing in my life, I don't want
to listen to someone else whohas a different opinion on what,
whether that's right or wrong,because I don't want to get
confused.
You know like, and it's I kindof say this like when you hire a
mentor if you hire a mentorwho's done the thing you want to
do and they're telling you whatto do and then you go work with
three other mentors, you'rescrewing yourself because what
(06:39):
you've done is now you've gotfour inputs and those inputs are
all going to be differentbecause each one of those people
have a different experience.
I'm not saying the one mentoris going to actually get you the
result, but you have to go allin with them first to determine
that it's not going to work,versus half dabbling with three,
four different methods.
So my opinion is you don'tworry about the people in the
(06:59):
middle.
You lean harder into theextremities, harder into your
tribe, and the people in themiddle who have those tendencies
or the attraction to certainthings will be pulled over,
because as your core grows,there's more noise, there's more
attention.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
This is going to be weirdly specific.
But you have an audience basedon your specific niche that fits
the narrative.
So if you change your coreproducts, you're turning away
the people that are hardcoreinto what you're going to
suggest for successfulpowerlifting.
But I see the same thing inApple.
When they launch the Apple,whatever 11, 24, 16, whatever
(07:37):
we're on, it's going to be forevery Apple user who's a diehard
fan.
They won't look at thecomparatives that Android
already has all these features.
It's that Apple finally doesand they're happier and they'll
buy the newest one no matterwhat.
So they're like Apple fans,right.
So that's kind of the fan thing.
But then you take my perspectiveas software and you go okay,
we're great for dressage or anyother fitness if they're using
(07:59):
the calendar system and thesurveys or whatever.
But then you want to get into anew line of industry for the
software because it's such abasic.
You can use the iPhone for anysoftware you want.
Whether you're teaching kidsswimming at home or whether
you're selling kittens, like you, can use the Apple iPhone,
right.
So software if the questioncomes from getting into a
different market and changingyour branding message, I don't
(08:20):
know that the branding corediffers if you're staying the
course, so for you it's aspecific niche, but the core
message is the same.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, and I think that's like.
It's like when you haveprinciples right, like I teach
from a place of concept andtheory, not from a place of like
necessarily specifics.
And so take advertising, forexample.
There's like principles ofadvertising that play true
whether you're on Google,facebook, youtube, no matter
what the platform, they playtrue.
Now, each platform then doeshave specifics right, because
(08:51):
depending on how the ad's shown,you know, google is text-based,
unless you're doing banner ads,but text-based.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Unless you're Coca-Cola, which I'm not but
like search ads.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Search ads are just text-based Facebook.
You've got an image to stoppeople.
You can do video too, youtube.
You're bumping on the front ofa video.
You're not in a newsfeed, sopeople aren't scrolling.
You're showing up before thevideo, so oftentimes you're an
annoying pest because they'retrying to watch a video.
So you have to have somethingto interrupt that thought
process to make them interested,and you've got to do it in 15
seconds or less, otherwisethey're just going to be upset
(09:20):
and skip.
My point is is, though, whatmakes a good?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
ad, a good ad is the same, and I think that that's
really to your point like youcan take.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Take marketing right.
I can teach marketing to adentist, to a chiropractor, to a
, to a personal trainer.
I can teach dentist marketingto all those people.
But there's going to be somespecific differences, right,
clients versus patients,language, we use those kinds of
things, but the actualprinciples of marketing remain
the same.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Sorry about human behavior.
I'm right in.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, there you go, there you go.
All right, let's take this nextquestion from Amid in London,
and Amid said that he's justgetting started running Facebook
and Instagram ads for his SaaSbusiness.
He wants to know what metricshe should measure at first to
make sure that his strategy ison point.
Is there any rookie mistakes heshould avoid?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
This is a question for you.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, you can kind of answer it too.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I like your answers better.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, with Facebook and Instagram, you've got to
test a lot, and really whatyou're testing is those hooks.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We found that anything with puppies or babies
actually clicks higher thananything else.
Even whatever your headline is,if it meets the message and
your picture is a puppy or ababy, you win.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I would say the reason that works.
we'll just lean on that.
The reason that works, though,is a patent interrupt, so you
have to understand that.
Advertising on Facebook andInstagram people are scrolling,
right.
They're either in their storieson Instagram or in the feed, or
on Facebook same thing.
I don't think many people usestories on Facebook, because
I've cross-posted and you getlike, hardly any views, so most
(10:56):
people are scrolling news feedson that, or they're getting
suggested stuff, right?
So when you think of it likethat, you have to understand
that, like, the imagery you useis the first thing that grabs
their attention.
Now, you don't want it to besuch a disconnect that, when
they see the image and then readthe post, that they immediately
go well, what the fuck was this, right?
Um, so you do.
(11:17):
You want some some like thingthat like ties it together,
right, and especially if they'regoing to click through, the
imagery should be pretty similarto what is on the landing page
or the sales page, whateveryou're driving traffic to, um,
because there there is thatconsistently, again, it's
subconscious communication of itbeing the same.
There's no bait, and switch.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
There's no different and if you're paying for the
click you cook on the baby andthey're looking.
For sure, the baby of sweetpotatoes are right.
So you're gonna, you're not,they're gonna stay in the ad
long and it's going to hurt youralgorithm.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And so that's where you want to lean in on that, and
so, really, what you're lookingat and we could go on forever,
right?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Successful system of raising your child with the
right income.
Now it becomes a baby.
Picture Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I could teach this for three days, but when it
comes to metrics, what you gotto understand is like what's the
first job of the ad?
Right, it's views.
Like the first job is to getsomeone to stop and actually
consume the ad right, and sothat's like metric number one.
If you're getting people tostop and consume the ad and
(12:16):
you're not getting any clicks,well, metric number two is
click-through rate right, andthen metric number three,
depending what you're driving to, is going to be conversion
right, Like how many people optin, how many people purchase.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
What about sharing?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, engagement can be good, but it depends on what
your, what the purpose of yourad is, depends on what.
So everybody runs addifferently.
Some people they just drivestraight to the sale.
I'm just going to use that asthe example because otherwise it
gets confusing If you'redriving straight to a sale sale
like you're really looking atlike how many impressions you've
got, how many clicks you've got, how many sales you've got,
conversions you got and then thevalue of that and does it equal
(12:49):
, right.
But when you're first starting,the mistake is to think it's
all going to work right off thebat, right?
You have to understand you gotit.
You got each, each, each uhpoint of conversion is something
to measure and tweak, becauseyou know if you've, if you've
got a hundred thousand views andno sales, then then you know
(13:10):
that there's a disconnect there.
So you have to figure out isthe disconnect on the ad?
Are you getting the clicks?
And if you're getting theclicks so you've had a hundred
thousand impressions, you've hadten thousand clicks and you've
had zero sales well, your ad'snot doing too bad.
So you know that Now your salespage is.
The issue and that's where mostpeople mess up with advertising
is that they look at it as anad.
(13:31):
So they'll hire an ad agencyand they'll say drive traffic.
The ad agency does exactly whatthey want drives traffic, and
there's no conversions.
Whose fault is it?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You found the problem .
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Is it bad traffic or is it bad sales, I see?
Well, you can't really tell ifyou're not split testing the
sales page or if you're notpaying.
So again, the key really isrunning ads.
You should probably not run adsto something that's not proven
to convert, because you have noidea.
But if you do run ads you haveto understand that it's all in
the whole system.
Go beyond that.
What's the follow-up system?
(14:01):
You know you can land it.
You can have a pixel on yourpage that if someone from
Facebook comes and lands on itand then doesn't buy, you can
run a separate ad.
So sometimes you got to thinkbeyond the first ad.
But when it comes to metrics,really it's like you want to
understand every conversionpoint, meaning every point.
Someone has to take an actionand those are the metrics you
measure.
Because sometimes it's like ifyou've got a hundred thousand
(14:23):
impressions and you've got athousand sales and you're
getting a 10 to one ROI, youain't going to worry about
anything.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
All day long.
Do that all day long.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And so the real key there is how quickly do we scale
up Because the numbers makesense?
We don't need to do a thousandsplit tests here because we
could just hurt us and let'sjust fucking run with it, right.
But when it's not like that, itand uh and uh um, frank Kern's
cousin, uh, trey Smith, Ilearned this from him.
Oh yeah, good old Trey, cousinTrey, um.
(14:56):
But um, what, what he?
When I was learning stuff fromhim around YouTube ads back in
the day, they had a screw Googleproduct.
It was all about YouTube ads.
I don't even know if YouTubedoes ads anymore, but
essentially it was cheapersearch traffic.
But one of the things that hereally hopped on was that you
have to understand all of theconversion points in a funnel
because your numbers on thefront it might look like you're
(15:18):
losing money, but if you justraise the price of your product,
you'd break even.
Or if you just had an upsell ora couple of upsells, if you
just improve the upsell takerate.
So, like oftentimes, you canthink it's a failure, but it's
not, and you only know that byknowing at each point the
conversions for everything thatsomeone has to take an action.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We've realized that with software, especially the
things that are done for you,that we advertise, are awesome.
We have figured out that whensomeone's using a competitive
product and they see our adseven-ish times, that's when
they click and it becomes apotential sale because they've
thought about us a couple times.
They're already using somethingthat works.
Now they've decided to explore.
But it takes when you're goingfor someone that's in the
(15:58):
competitor product, it takes alot more clicks.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And that's a great point, because a lot of people,
when they run ads for products,they don't understand the
importance of familiarity, ofstuff like that.
So the truth is is if you'rerunning an ad for a product, you
also should be running ads withtestimonials, or if you can,
depending on the industry you'rein or or running ad with
positive, like you know feedback, or running ads showcasing what
(16:24):
it is like that that's thebiggest mistake people make is
they see an ad as like oh, Ijust do this one ad.
They have to see it as part ofa system and you can.
You know, depending on where auser is in their buying journey
meaning are they, are theysomeone who has an urgent
problem, needs an urgentsolution, or are they further
down on the path and dependingwhat type of product you are
(16:44):
really determines where they areon their path, and so your
advertising should reflect that.
If someone doesn't know who youare and doesn't have a problem,
trying to sell them off thegate is probably not going to
work.
And that's where your ads mightmove to lead gen or just video
views to get people interestedin you, and then, if they watch
a certain amount of the video,you retarget them.
So it's a very complex thing,but the real way to win is just
(17:06):
knowing the numbers, so that youcan look at it and go, oh, okay
, if this funnel metrics changedhere and here would be okay.
What do we need to do?
You know, and a lot of timesyou can just add, add again, add
uh upsells to the products inorder to get more money so you
can get, you know, recoup yourinvestment quicker.
(17:28):
Because if your product is, youknow, a couple hundred bucks,
you got to have a really highconversion.
But if your products, you know,can be worth a couple of
thousand bucks, now you've gotmore wiggle room with your ads,
you know, and and that's kind of, that's kind of the big thing
people don't realize is that youknow you got to know what.
How much are you willing tospend to buy a customer?
You know what's your, what'syour lifetime value and how much
(17:49):
of that are you willing tospend?
How much cash flow do you haveto float before you get that
back, before your profit?
Well, these are all things thathave to be taken into account.
So, all right.
Next question is from Naomi upin San Francisco, I've noticed a
lot of influencers seem to usehype over substance in their
(18:11):
marketing.
What's your take on balancinghype with real life, tangible
value, especially when launchinga new product or service,
especially when launching a newproduct?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
or service.
I think when it's hyper valueusually it's clothing, jewelry,
cars it's something that you cansee the difference in the
levels of.
I mean, if it's makeup, it'sthe less chemicals, more organic
or more-lasting or more likestain, tattoo, whatever.
So they've got benefits thatare specific to the product
(18:44):
they're selling.
So the overhype does work.
If you're doing it, like forthe iPhone 16 versus the iPhone
11, that's not hard either.
Go for the hype that the newone has, that the other one
doesn't, and all of the thingsthat you can use to your
advantage.
That's the only way I can seeto do it successfully.
Really is if you're comparing,like the YouTube videos, which
(19:06):
one's better?
And no matter what you pick,there's a positive outcome
probably, but this one has thesethree or four things that may
relate to their customer best.
That's probably the winninganswer.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, it's a tough question to answer because I
think it comes down really towhat you're selling and who your
audience is.
The age of your audience, right.
The younger an audience, themore they respond to kind of
some of this hype stuff.
Right, the older the audience,the more that has to be more
subtle and not so in your face,right.
So there's that.
And then when you look at itand I'm looking at launches you
(19:34):
know launches that don't havehave never had customers before.
It's a new thing.
Right, they have to rely moreon hype, but once you have
results, you can rely a lot moreon results-based marketing.
And I'll share a story of oneof the companies that was on
Katra.
They did a launch, a favoritestory.
(19:55):
They did like $50 million onthis launch it insane.
So I was like I gotta watch thewebinar.
I gotta understand how they didthis.
How do they position this sowell?
So I watched the webinar andJason Flattion had had done the
webinar.
He's one of the world's best atwebinars but literally the
webinar was hey, we betalaunched this, we're going to
(20:18):
just show you the results, andthe entire webinar was them
inside the dashboard showingclient results, and then they
just explained what it was andput it on sale.
There was zero hype.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That is the same thing as hype.
If you do this makeup, it stayson longer.
This is more organic for yourskin.
If you do it for the software,this will give you better photos
for your advertising.
It'll increase your client baseas much.
Where this will give you betterphotos for your advertising,
it'll increase your client baseas much, it's still the positive
.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I guess you could see it like.
I guess I guess what I was.
What I was getting at is that,like, usually what you would see
is like oh, this thing'sincredible, you can make tons of
money, you can do this, you cando that, and it's like here's
what it's going to do for youand and like you don't have to
do anything, it's push of abutton.
But there's a magic bullet, soit hits all the talking points,
(21:02):
but the actual, like evidencethat it's going to work is not
there Right, and so they hype it.
The less evidence you have, Ifeel like, the more hype
naturally has to happen in orderto sell.
Right.
But then when you have casestudies, testimonials, proof
that it works, like your resultscan do the selling for you.
(21:23):
Because there's no, that'sproof.
That's like proof you don'thave to say anything.
And I'm thinking even like aweight loss product.
What's more effective?
Like saying you're going tolose a bunch of weight because
it's got these ingredients,they're going to do this.
Or just showing 60 people thathave lost weight, like meet jill
she lost 30 pounds.
Meet john, he lost 20 pounds.
Like just go through that.
People are going to be like Iwant those results.
So that's how I think of it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I see.
So the hype without the proof,the hype of just do the magic
bullet, of just do this andyou'll get all the stuff, versus
someone saying, hey, this thingworked for me, based on these
things.
So so hype versus testimonialsand reviews.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, and again, it just depends on where the
product is and the type ofaudience, right, some things
sell themselves.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Kartra will not let you lose weight, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But there is people on Kartra who can help you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
This one's from Chloe in Miami.
I really like South Florida youdo not yeah.
I love it there.
I'm going to get you to movethere with me.
You move your family, I'll movemy family.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Mine's bigger.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Sarah, you mentioned the importance of being decisive
and strong in your messaging.
How do you recommend findingthe confidence when I still feel
like I have to figure out myniche and my messaging?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh crap.
Figuring out your niche andyour messaging is the very most
powerful thing you can do.
Whatever you're selling thereis, honestly, to me, if you're
looking at your competitors oryou're looking at what it does
for the person regardless ofwhat it is, whether it's the
weight loss pill or the how toraise your pony into being a
dressage pony you know where tolook and so if you find that
(22:59):
niche, then you can target thataudience very clearly on the
benefit of following this system, like you do with working out.
If I said, okay, aj, I'm gonnabe a powerlifter, you'd be like,
okay, sure you are.
There's no way I'm gonna followall the things you say with the
protein and the dumbbells andall the stuff that you do, all
the time that you work so hardto get these results.
You know I'm not that way.
(23:19):
I see the gym enough I can sayI go to the gym and it's shown
nice enough results.
I'm not going to power lift.
So you're not talking to me,your ads are not going to hit me
about what protein and whatstuff to do to get power lifting
status.
So if you know your products,if you don't know your product,
you need to figure that outfirst, and what niche is that
going to be to get the rewardfor the client buying it?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And I'll just add to that.
I think that a lot of times, ifyou're still trying to figure
that out, what you actually needto do is look at your own
journey.
I'm a big follower of thehero's journey.
I believe we live many hero'sjourneys.
We have one big hero's journeythat's made up of lots of little
heroes journeys, and thebiggest thing you can do as a
leader is share the experiencesyou've had with people who are
(24:05):
on the same journey, but behindyou.
Right, and that doesn't matterwhat gender you are, it doesn't
matter what age you are, itdoesn't matter what culture
you're from.
If they're having a sharedexperience that you've already
gone through, you have value toadd to them.
Right, and again, it could bebuilding a business, it could be
(24:25):
losing weight, it could bekeeping a marriage, it could be
finding a partner.
Every individual has a uniqueexperience in their life and
there is something there that isvaluable.
There is something there thatsomeone else is charging a lot
of money for.
So if you want to be confidentin what you do confidence comes
from a place of experience, likeif you've already done it you
can speak with conviction andclarity because you've figured
(24:48):
out a way to go through that Ifyou've yet to do it and you're
teaching up, so to speak, right,like, let's say, you've built a
business that's doing a hundredthousand a year, okay, and you
decide that you're going toteach businesses how to grow to
a hundred million, and you goand you read a hundred books,
right, and so your knowledge isthere.
The problem is is you've neverdone it, just because you have
(25:09):
the knowledge.
And so, yes, you could be aprofessor at a university and
teach these things and peopledon't seem to question you.
But the reality is, in the realworld, people are going to want
to see what you've done, andthere is people making money,
teaching up, right, but youdon't hear about them, right?
They're doing it under theradar and they're getting a few
suckers to buy from them.
But the people who, the peoplewho really do well, and doesn't
(25:33):
matter what industry, doesn'tmatter what product they're
selling, like it's they'reteaching from a place of
actually achievement andaccomplishment.
And so when they say something,it's them sharing their own
experience that they think willwork for you too.
And so that confidence that theyhave isn't something they've
had to gain, isn't somethingthey've had to go create, isn't
something they've had to.
They just have it because theyput in the reps, they put in the
(25:55):
work they've, they've got thescars to show.
And so when you question them,there's no crack in their armor
because they're like, yeah, thisis what I did, this is what
worked.
Whereas if someone asks you aquestion and you're like, well,
I don't really know, like here'ssome things you can try.
Well, they sense that lack ofconfidence in you because you
have no confidence, because youhave no clue.
(26:16):
You've never done it.
So that's what I reckon.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You're selling clue.
You've never done it.
So that's what I reckon whenyou're selling something, you're
selling a solution to a problem.
Even if it's a reward base,even if you're selling the
solution to getting more clientsand more finances for your
family, it's going to be you'resolving a problem.
So if they can show thatthey've solved the problem, that
is where the confidence comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yep, I agree.
Let's see what another question.
We got a lot, I'm just gonna doone more, okay.
Well, this is good.
It follows them, um from kevinin denver.
Aj, you talk a lot about howcertainty is a powerful
(27:00):
marketing tool.
How can I apply this concept tomy SaaS business, where my
features are constantly evolvingand it's hard to be certain
about anything?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Ooh, that was to you.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I know you're going to share something, but so
that's a great question, and Ithink the issue there is.
You mentioned how your featuresare changing, right.
I think that the way yousucceed as business is you
operate from a place of vision,right, and that vision and
(27:33):
mission that you have is yourguiding compass.
The products that you sell helppeople achieve what your
guiding compass is.
So, for example, for us withKartra Kartra came about because
we were tired of having techstacks and we were tired of tech
stacks breaking when we weresending a lot of traffic
(27:56):
launches, things like that.
We're spending a lot of moneyto get custom code.
We're spending a lot of moneyto build things that nobody else
has, because we want to haveupsells and downsells and then
cross-sells and we want to havelimited access to a product for
trials that then they can clicka button and get full access,
and so all these things thatweren't in existence.
Now they are, but but back thenthere wasn't Zapier.
(28:18):
You couldn't just plug intosomething, and so we wanted to.
We came to the conclusion thathow are we supposed to teach our
customers how to succeed whenthey can't do like, when we're
saying you need an upsell, butthere's no product that allowed
them to have an upsell easily,right?
It was like well, here's howyou do one.
It's really freaking difficultand you've got to get custom
coding and you've got to haveweb hooks and all this stuff.
(28:40):
I didn't know anything aboutback then.
So the concept was well, let'ssimplify business online, Like.
That was the concept, right?
And I think that when you lookat Webinar Jam, how that came
about, it was well, there isn'ta platform built specifically
for what we're trying to do, andthe one that exists that we're
(29:00):
kind of using but isn't designedfor it is very expensive.
So how are we supposed to teachour clients to do webinars when
it's going to cost them $1,000a month to just have an account,
when they've never made anymoney online before?
We're trying to get themstarted here, right?
So Webinar Jam came around as acheaper alternative specific to
what they wanted, but again,simplifying business online.
(29:22):
And so when you have a guidingcompass, it doesn't really
matter what features you havelike.
The benefits are what matter,and the benefits are what it
does for the client, and so aslong as the features continue to
um push towards that mission,then there's no lack of
confidence because you like, ifyou come out and you say like,
uh, um, I want to build.
(29:45):
Oh, I heard someone say theother day they, they built a
QuickBooks for advertising.
So basically the idea withQuickBooks is it simplifies your
taxes.
You go to one place, you do itall, everything's there.
Their platform.
The idea is you can come totheir platform and you can run
your ads everywhere.
Just simplifies running ads,right.
So that was the conceptSimplify advertising.
(30:07):
So what features does it have?
I don't care.
I understand what the platformdoes.
Just from that, they could add100 features.
Does it simplify advertising,yes or no?
If the answer is yes, we're onthe right path.
If the answer is no, then it'snot a good feature.
I believe that's how you end uphaving, I guess, confidence in
your marketing around.
(30:28):
Something is when you know whatthe mission is for that product
or for that company.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Especially software.
It's easy to have the missiondown, but if you're improving,
you know that you're finding thebetter solution within your own
software to make the solutionof their problem easier to get
to or cheaper to get to.
If you're improving, it's notto make your product more
expensive, it's not to make yourproduct harder to use, it's to
make it easier.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And if you're curious about, curious about like, look
at it further.
What I'm saying?
I'm a big fan of the virginbrand, right, but you can look
at disney, you can look at anyof these major brands.
Everything they do has tofollow a certain thing.
Right there there is a pulse ora uh personality to the
business that like has to align.
I just got back from Vegas and,um, you know, I went, I got up,
(31:18):
I used to when I lived there, Iused to walk the strip and um,
the, the group I was with dowalk, do a walking group every
morning.
Um, but the guys they were atthe other end of the strip,
their hotel.
So the first first day I wasthere, I just walked on my own,
like cause, I was like it'spretty far yeah.
I was like I'm just gonna walkcause I was in the middle of the
strip.
So I went up and I went throughExcalibur, you know a giant
(31:40):
castle, and as I'm walking in togo through there to the Luxor,
like to go across to the Luxorto the Mandalay Bay, I literally
thought to myself man, thishotel needs to be bought by
Disney and they should dosomething because it is outdated
, like this, is already a castlelike Disney.
And then it hit me I was likeDisney probably would never come
to Vegas because, even thoughthey would do well there,
(32:02):
there's a stigma that it's SinCity and I'm not sure it fits
the brand vision if it, ifthere's a couple of licensing
deals there that have someDisney experiences but is an
actual Disney coming to Vegas?
It would have to be seen as afamily-friendly place.
It would have to be seen as,not as what Vegas typically
(32:24):
comes across, as With Virgin,richard Branson's cheekiness and
every Virgin product has thatside of it.
It has that sassiness, it hasthat like screw the big guy
right.
It has these elements that itdoesn't matter what business
that Virgin goes into.
They take that philosophy withthem and I believe that that's
(32:45):
where the confidence comes thatthey can do so well, because you
know, you know, yeah, you'redifferent, but you also stand
for something and when you standfor something, even if people
don't agree with you, like otherpeople are attracted to that,
and that's really what it comesdown to.
If you're like, if someone saysto you you know what's your
software the best at and you'relike, eh, it's just, I mean, it
(33:07):
does the same as all these otherones.
Why would I buy your software?
But if, if, if someone saidwhat's your software the best at
, and you literally saidmarketing or automations for
online marketers, boom, that'ssomething right.
And so go back to the categoryof one conversation, like the
red ocean versus blue ocean.
(33:28):
You always want to create yourown uniqueness, but at the same
time, sometimes you can beunique by just being specific to
what that mission is.
Your mission can be what makesthe product unique.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And software is not that hard to do and you narrow
it down that way.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, exactly, we got some experience with that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
A little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
All right, everyone that's it for this episode of
Paid to Create Enjoyed answeringyour questions.
If you have more, go ahead andleave those on.
You can leave those on, on ourinbox.
Yeah, I guess.
Go to paidcreatecom and you cansubmit those questions there or
leave them on the YouTubechannel.
For those of you listening onsome other podcast platform,
please like and subscribe andwe'll.
Welcome everyone to another episode of Paid to
Create.
Today we're going to beanswering your questions.
Hopefully we have some goodanswers.
We'll find out 50-50.
Yeah, so we'll dive right inthis.
First one is from Kelly inNashville.
Both of you have talked aboutthe importance of connecting
with the middle, whether inpolitics or in business.
What's your best tip forgrowing a business when you're
(00:22):
trying to appeal to bothhardcore fans and people on the
fence?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
What does she mean?
Hardcore fans.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So my interpretation of the question is just like you
know, when you You're verypopular, I get it.
You've got your core group ofpeople and then you've got the
people on the outside thatyou're trying to attract in and
would be the middle Right.
So it's like you've you've gotyour first first responders or
your you know, first buyers orwhatever, the people who when
(00:53):
you put a product out, theyimmediately go I want that,
right.
And then you have the peoplewho kind of wait and they kind
of see they're they're a littlebit more cautious in their
decisions or they're not as bigof a fan of you as everybody
else, right?
So what do you do to satisfyboth ends of the spectrum when
building the business?
So for me, like the way I lookat it, is that you should
(01:16):
actually just build yourbusiness for the core and the
right people will be attractedto it.
I think the big mistake peoplemake is trying to please
everybody and trying to thinklike that.
I think the big mistake peoplemake is trying to please
everybody and trying to thinklike that.
I think that in today's world,with the internet and the
ability to reach people all overthe world at the push of a
button, there's enough peopleout there that you can
(01:37):
essentially be very specific inthe way you talk to your
audience, market to youraudience, that you literally
push away anybody that doesn'talign with that.
And take like a t-shirt company, for example.
Your slogan is it matters,right, and if you are timid in
(01:59):
what you're saying, it's one ofthose things.
Just say what you mean, right,and so you'll see.
There's that company t-shirtsfrom from hell.
I would never buy a t-shirtfrom them, but there's a lot of
people who who want that.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They enjoy the offense of the shirt, right it's
offensive, it goes the furthestyou can go but it's a
successful company.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So think of all the people that are offended, all
the people that would never buya t-shirt.
Yet there's enough people thatpeople buy, right?
They don't have to use PC wordsor dance around the subject.
I mean, they're pretty graphic,they're pretty in your face and
yet they still make money.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
They probably sell spaghetti strap shirts.
Why don't you just launch thet-shirts from heaven?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Why don't you just launch the t-shirts from heaven.
Well, that's the other end ofthe spectrum, right, you got
people walking around withshirts that have quotes from the
Bible on.
That's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I would do and, honestly, I would believe in it
and think it would be helpful.
So I'd be like, okay, they'reover there, I'm going to do the
opposite.
That's exactly what I would do.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The t-shirts from heaven that have the biblical
scriptures that people relate to.
That's awesome.
And then in the middle is just,people are going to wear
regular t-shirts.
I wouldn't worry about that.
Right, there's more, and thereason is is that a lot of times
, um, the more polarizing youare and I don't even know if
it's polarizing the more certainyou are in in in what you stand
for and what your companyrepresents, the easier it is for
people to align with that.
Right, because you, you havethose, those, those, uh, belief
(03:21):
systems.
And so if you're someone wholikes to bargain, hunt and and
get the cheapest deal, you'reprobably not going to go stay at
a, a, an expensive hotel, right, you're going to, you're going
to do a hotels tonight, lastminute deal, whatever, you're
looking for the cheapest in thearea, because that's, that's
what matters to you.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
On, the other end of the six out of the running, just
in general.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
But.
And then on the other end ofthe six out of the running, just
in general but, and then on theother end of the spectrum,
you've got someone whom price isin an option they're going to
be looking at what's the most,what's the best experience they
can have, um, or what's the mostlike like luxurious place that
they can back in to feel acertain way right, like because
they're more about the feel ofthe hotel than they are about
just the price of the hotel.
So I think, when you look at,you know people in the middle,
and how do you get them to go?
(04:09):
Either way, I think that,underlying, we all have things
we gravitate towards, we don'tgravitate to, and so when, when
you see someone standing intheir um, certainty, um and
essentially being polarizingbecause if you're saying one
thing, someone else, like ifyou're wearing a t-shirt from
hell, you're going to havepeople who are offended.
If you're wearing a Bible quote, you're going to have people
(04:30):
who are offended.
So the thing is, though youwant, you're going to attract
more of those people the moreyou lean into it than you are if
you wishy washy or try toplease.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
How do you think the coexist sticker is on all those
cars?
All those religions are equallyoffended by the sticker being
next to each other.
I don't know how it got made.
You're offending everybody atonce.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, there's shared belief in that right, there's a
lot of people who believe all ofthat is ridiculous, and so
that's all those people withthose stickers, right, and it's
kind of, again, people like tobelong to something that they
identify as, again, people liketo belong to something that they
identify as we are inherently.
You know, go through most ofour life labeling ourselves as
(05:10):
certain things when in realitywe're just human.
You know, everything else is alearned experience.
That's your high school kittycat in California.
But my point is that that's alladded on as you grow, right?
When you're first born, youdon't have any of these labels,
you're just a baby.
You know, that's your firstlabel.
I guess you're a baby, right.
(05:35):
And then as you grow, you knowterrible twos like we
immediately add.
We add labels as we go, but weidentify as things and some of
those labels we don't want, someof those labels we do want and
I think that you know, even as Iapproach my 40s, like I'm still
looking at who do I want tobecome Like?
What version of me when you growup?
Well, what's the best versionof me?
Right, what's the best versionof me?
And that leans me to beingattracted to other people who
(05:55):
are on that path and listeningto them and paying attention.
And I reject some things, Iaccept some things.
If you look at my circle,there's a lot more commonalities
between people I'm listening tothan there is.
You know differences, becauseI'm attracted to a certain
mindset, I'm attracted to acertain work ethic.
That doesn't mean I think theother people are wrong, it's
just if and I say this all thetime you have to protect your
(06:16):
inputs.
Right.
And for me, if I want a certainthing in my life, I don't want
to listen to someone else whohas a different opinion on what,
whether that's right or wrong,because I don't want to get
confused.
You know like, and it's I kindof say this like when you hire a
mentor if you hire a mentorwho's done the thing you want to
do and they're telling you whatto do and then you go work with
three other mentors, you'rescrewing yourself because what
(06:39):
you've done is now you've gotfour inputs and those inputs are
all going to be differentbecause each one of those people
have a different experience.
I'm not saying the one mentoris going to actually get you the
result, but you have to go allin with them first to determine
that it's not going to work,versus half dabbling with three,
four different methods.
So my opinion is you don'tworry about the people in the
(06:59):
middle.
You lean harder into theextremities, harder into your
tribe, and the people in themiddle who have those tendencies
or the attraction to certainthings will be pulled over,
because as your core grows,there's more noise, there's more
attention.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
This is going to be weirdly specific.
But you have an audience basedon your specific niche that fits
the narrative.
So if you change your coreproducts, you're turning away
the people that are hardcoreinto what you're going to
suggest for successfulpowerlifting.
But I see the same thing inApple.
When they launch the Apple,whatever 11, 24, 16, whatever
(07:37):
we're on, it's going to be forevery Apple user who's a diehard
fan.
They won't look at thecomparatives that Android
already has all these features.
It's that Apple finally doesand they're happier and they'll
buy the newest one no matterwhat.
So they're like Apple fans,right.
So that's kind of the fan thing.
But then you take my perspectiveas software and you go okay,
we're great for dressage or anyother fitness if they're using
(07:59):
the calendar system and thesurveys or whatever.
But then you want to get into anew line of industry for the
software because it's such abasic.
You can use the iPhone for anysoftware you want.
Whether you're teaching kidsswimming at home or whether
you're selling kittens, like you, can use the Apple iPhone,
right.
So software if the questioncomes from getting into a
different market and changingyour branding message, I don't
(08:20):
know that the branding corediffers if you're staying the
course, so for you it's aspecific niche, but the core
message is the same.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, and I think that's like.
It's like when you haveprinciples right, like I teach
from a place of concept andtheory, not from a place of like
necessarily specifics.
And so take advertising, forexample.
There's like principles ofadvertising that play true
whether you're on Google,facebook, youtube, no matter
what the platform, they playtrue.
Now, each platform then doeshave specifics right, because
(08:51):
depending on how the ad's shown,you know, google is text-based,
unless you're doing banner ads,but text-based.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Unless you're Coca-Cola, which I'm not but
like search ads.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Search ads are just text-based Facebook.
You've got an image to stoppeople.
You can do video too, youtube.
You're bumping on the front ofa video.
You're not in a newsfeed, sopeople aren't scrolling.
You're showing up before thevideo, so oftentimes you're an
annoying pest because they'retrying to watch a video.
So you have to have somethingto interrupt that thought
process to make them interested,and you've got to do it in 15
seconds or less, otherwisethey're just going to be upset
(09:20):
and skip.
My point is is, though, whatmakes a good?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
ad, a good ad is the same, and I think that that's
really to your point like youcan take.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Take marketing right.
I can teach marketing to adentist, to a chiropractor, to a
, to a personal trainer.
I can teach dentist marketingto all those people.
But there's going to be somespecific differences, right,
clients versus patients,language, we use those kinds of
things, but the actualprinciples of marketing remain
the same.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Sorry about human behavior.
I'm right in.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, there you go, there you go.
All right, let's take this nextquestion from Amid in London,
and Amid said that he's justgetting started running Facebook
and Instagram ads for his SaaSbusiness.
He wants to know what metricshe should measure at first to
make sure that his strategy ison point.
Is there any rookie mistakes heshould avoid?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
This is a question for you.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, you can kind of answer it too.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I like your answers better.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, with Facebook and Instagram, you've got to
test a lot, and really whatyou're testing is those hooks.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We found that anything with puppies or babies
actually clicks higher thananything else.
Even whatever your headline is,if it meets the message and
your picture is a puppy or ababy, you win.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I would say the reason that works.
we'll just lean on that.
The reason that works, though,is a patent interrupt, so you
have to understand that.
Advertising on Facebook andInstagram people are scrolling,
right.
They're either in their storieson Instagram or in the feed, or
on Facebook same thing.
I don't think many people usestories on Facebook, because
I've cross-posted and you getlike, hardly any views, so most
(10:56):
people are scrolling news feedson that, or they're getting
suggested stuff, right?
So when you think of it likethat, you have to understand
that, like, the imagery you useis the first thing that grabs
their attention.
Now, you don't want it to besuch a disconnect that, when
they see the image and then readthe post, that they immediately
go well, what the fuck was this, right?
Um, so you do.
(11:17):
You want some some like thingthat like ties it together,
right, and especially if they'regoing to click through, the
imagery should be pretty similarto what is on the landing page
or the sales page, whateveryou're driving traffic to, um,
because there there is thatconsistently, again, it's
subconscious communication of itbeing the same.
There's no bait, and switch.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
There's no different and if you're paying for the
click you cook on the baby andthey're looking.
For sure, the baby of sweetpotatoes are right.
So you're gonna, you're not,they're gonna stay in the ad
long and it's going to hurt youralgorithm.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And so that's where you want to lean in on that, and
so, really, what you're lookingat and we could go on forever,
right?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Successful system of raising your child with the
right income.
Now it becomes a baby.
Picture Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I could teach this for three days, but when it
comes to metrics, what you gotto understand is like what's the
first job of the ad?
Right, it's views.
Like the first job is to getsomeone to stop and actually
consume the ad right, and sothat's like metric number one.
If you're getting people tostop and consume the ad and
(12:16):
you're not getting any clicks,well, metric number two is
click-through rate right, andthen metric number three,
depending what you're driving to, is going to be conversion
right, Like how many people optin, how many people purchase.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
What about sharing?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, engagement can be good, but it depends on what
your, what the purpose of yourad is, depends on what.
So everybody runs addifferently.
Some people they just drivestraight to the sale.
I'm just going to use that asthe example because otherwise it
gets confusing If you'redriving straight to a sale sale
like you're really looking atlike how many impressions you've
got, how many clicks you've got, how many sales you've got,
conversions you got and then thevalue of that and does it equal
(12:49):
, right.
But when you're first starting,the mistake is to think it's
all going to work right off thebat, right?
You have to understand you gotit.
You got each, each, each uhpoint of conversion is something
to measure and tweak, becauseyou know if you've, if you've
got a hundred thousand views andno sales, then then you know
(13:10):
that there's a disconnect there.
So you have to figure out isthe disconnect on the ad?
Are you getting the clicks?
And if you're getting theclicks so you've had a hundred
thousand impressions, you've hadten thousand clicks and you've
had zero sales well, your ad'snot doing too bad.
So you know that Now your salespage is.
The issue and that's where mostpeople mess up with advertising
is that they look at it as anad.
(13:31):
So they'll hire an ad agencyand they'll say drive traffic.
The ad agency does exactly whatthey want drives traffic, and
there's no conversions.
Whose fault is it?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You found the problem .
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Is it bad traffic or is it bad sales, I see?
Well, you can't really tell ifyou're not split testing the
sales page or if you're notpaying.
So again, the key really isrunning ads.
You should probably not run adsto something that's not proven
to convert, because you have noidea.
But if you do run ads you haveto understand that it's all in
the whole system.
Go beyond that.
What's the follow-up system?
(14:01):
You know you can land it.
You can have a pixel on yourpage that if someone from
Facebook comes and lands on itand then doesn't buy, you can
run a separate ad.
So sometimes you got to thinkbeyond the first ad.
But when it comes to metrics,really it's like you want to
understand every conversionpoint, meaning every point.
Someone has to take an actionand those are the metrics you
measure.
Because sometimes it's like ifyou've got a hundred thousand
(14:23):
impressions and you've got athousand sales and you're
getting a 10 to one ROI, youain't going to worry about
anything.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
All day long.
Do that all day long.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And so the real key there is how quickly do we scale
up Because the numbers makesense?
We don't need to do a thousandsplit tests here because we
could just hurt us and let'sjust fucking run with it, right.
But when it's not like that, itand uh and uh um, frank Kern's
cousin, uh, trey Smith, Ilearned this from him.
Oh yeah, good old Trey, cousinTrey, um.
(14:56):
But um, what, what he?
When I was learning stuff fromhim around YouTube ads back in
the day, they had a screw Googleproduct.
It was all about YouTube ads.
I don't even know if YouTubedoes ads anymore, but
essentially it was cheapersearch traffic.
But one of the things that hereally hopped on was that you
have to understand all of theconversion points in a funnel
because your numbers on thefront it might look like you're
(15:18):
losing money, but if you justraise the price of your product,
you'd break even.
Or if you just had an upsell ora couple of upsells, if you
just improve the upsell takerate.
So, like oftentimes, you canthink it's a failure, but it's
not, and you only know that byknowing at each point the
conversions for everything thatsomeone has to take an action.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We've realized that with software, especially the
things that are done for you,that we advertise, are awesome.
We have figured out that whensomeone's using a competitive
product and they see our adseven-ish times, that's when
they click and it becomes apotential sale because they've
thought about us a couple times.
They're already using somethingthat works.
Now they've decided to explore.
But it takes when you're goingfor someone that's in the
(15:58):
competitor product, it takes alot more clicks.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And that's a great point, because a lot of people,
when they run ads for products,they don't understand the
importance of familiarity, ofstuff like that.
So the truth is is if you'rerunning an ad for a product, you
also should be running ads withtestimonials, or if you can,
depending on the industry you'rein or or running ad with
positive, like you know feedback, or running ads showcasing what
(16:24):
it is like that that's thebiggest mistake people make is
they see an ad as like oh, Ijust do this one ad.
They have to see it as part ofa system and you can.
You know, depending on where auser is in their buying journey
meaning are they, are theysomeone who has an urgent
problem, needs an urgentsolution, or are they further
down on the path and dependingwhat type of product you are
(16:44):
really determines where they areon their path, and so your
advertising should reflect that.
If someone doesn't know who youare and doesn't have a problem,
trying to sell them off thegate is probably not going to
work.
And that's where your ads mightmove to lead gen or just video
views to get people interestedin you, and then, if they watch
a certain amount of the video,you retarget them.
So it's a very complex thing,but the real way to win is just
(17:06):
knowing the numbers, so that youcan look at it and go, oh, okay
, if this funnel metrics changedhere and here would be okay.
What do we need to do?
You know, and a lot of timesyou can just add, add again, add
uh upsells to the products inorder to get more money so you
can get, you know, recoup yourinvestment quicker.
(17:28):
Because if your product is, youknow, a couple hundred bucks,
you got to have a really highconversion.
But if your products, you know,can be worth a couple of
thousand bucks, now you've gotmore wiggle room with your ads,
you know, and and that's kind of, that's kind of the big thing
people don't realize is that youknow you got to know what.
How much are you willing tospend to buy a customer?
You know what's your, what'syour lifetime value and how much
(17:49):
of that are you willing tospend?
How much cash flow do you haveto float before you get that
back, before your profit?
Well, these are all things thathave to be taken into account.
So, all right.
Next question is from Naomi upin San Francisco, I've noticed a
lot of influencers seem to usehype over substance in their
(18:11):
marketing.
What's your take on balancinghype with real life, tangible
value, especially when launchinga new product or service,
especially when launching a newproduct?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
or service.
I think when it's hyper valueusually it's clothing, jewelry,
cars it's something that you cansee the difference in the
levels of.
I mean, if it's makeup, it'sthe less chemicals, more organic
or more-lasting or more likestain, tattoo, whatever.
So they've got benefits thatare specific to the product
(18:44):
they're selling.
So the overhype does work.
If you're doing it, like forthe iPhone 16 versus the iPhone
11, that's not hard either.
Go for the hype that the newone has, that the other one
doesn't, and all of the thingsthat you can use to your
advantage.
That's the only way I can seeto do it successfully.
Really is if you're comparing,like the YouTube videos, which
(19:06):
one's better?
And no matter what you pick,there's a positive outcome
probably, but this one has thesethree or four things that may
relate to their customer best.
That's probably the winninganswer.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, it's a tough question to answer because I
think it comes down really towhat you're selling and who your
audience is.
The age of your audience, right.
The younger an audience, themore they respond to kind of
some of this hype stuff.
Right, the older the audience,the more that has to be more
subtle and not so in your face,right.
So there's that.
And then when you look at itand I'm looking at launches you
(19:34):
know launches that don't havehave never had customers before.
It's a new thing.
Right, they have to rely moreon hype, but once you have
results, you can rely a lot moreon results-based marketing.
And I'll share a story of oneof the companies that was on
Katra.
They did a launch, a favoritestory.
(19:55):
They did like $50 million onthis launch it insane.
So I was like I gotta watch thewebinar.
I gotta understand how they didthis.
How do they position this sowell?
So I watched the webinar andJason Flattion had had done the
webinar.
He's one of the world's best atwebinars but literally the
webinar was hey, we betalaunched this, we're going to
(20:18):
just show you the results, andthe entire webinar was them
inside the dashboard showingclient results, and then they
just explained what it was andput it on sale.
There was zero hype.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That is the same thing as hype.
If you do this makeup, it stayson longer.
This is more organic for yourskin.
If you do it for the software,this will give you better photos
for your advertising.
It'll increase your client baseas much.
Where this will give you betterphotos for your advertising,
it'll increase your client baseas much, it's still the positive
.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I guess you could see it like.
I guess I guess what I was.
What I was getting at is that,like, usually what you would see
is like oh, this thing'sincredible, you can make tons of
money, you can do this, you cando that, and it's like here's
what it's going to do for youand and like you don't have to
do anything, it's push of abutton.
But there's a magic bullet, soit hits all the talking points,
(21:02):
but the actual, like evidencethat it's going to work is not
there Right, and so they hype it.
The less evidence you have, Ifeel like, the more hype
naturally has to happen in orderto sell.
Right.
But then when you have casestudies, testimonials, proof
that it works, like your resultscan do the selling for you.
(21:23):
Because there's no, that'sproof.
That's like proof you don'thave to say anything.
And I'm thinking even like aweight loss product.
What's more effective?
Like saying you're going tolose a bunch of weight because
it's got these ingredients,they're going to do this.
Or just showing 60 people thathave lost weight, like meet jill
she lost 30 pounds.
Meet john, he lost 20 pounds.
Like just go through that.
People are going to be like Iwant those results.
So that's how I think of it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I see.
So the hype without the proof,the hype of just do the magic
bullet, of just do this andyou'll get all the stuff, versus
someone saying, hey, this thingworked for me, based on these
things.
So so hype versus testimonialsand reviews.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, and again, it just depends on where the
product is and the type ofaudience, right, some things
sell themselves.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Kartra will not let you lose weight, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But there is people on Kartra who can help you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
This one's from Chloe in Miami.
I really like South Florida youdo not yeah.
I love it there.
I'm going to get you to movethere with me.
You move your family, I'll movemy family.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Mine's bigger.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Sarah, you mentioned the importance of being decisive
and strong in your messaging.
How do you recommend findingthe confidence when I still feel
like I have to figure out myniche and my messaging?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh crap.
Figuring out your niche andyour messaging is the very most
powerful thing you can do.
Whatever you're selling thereis, honestly, to me, if you're
looking at your competitors oryou're looking at what it does
for the person regardless ofwhat it is, whether it's the
weight loss pill or the how toraise your pony into being a
dressage pony you know where tolook and so if you find that
(22:59):
niche, then you can target thataudience very clearly on the
benefit of following this system, like you do with working out.
If I said, okay, aj, I'm gonnabe a powerlifter, you'd be like,
okay, sure you are.
There's no way I'm gonna followall the things you say with the
protein and the dumbbells andall the stuff that you do, all
the time that you work so hardto get these results.
You know I'm not that way.
(23:19):
I see the gym enough I can sayI go to the gym and it's shown
nice enough results.
I'm not going to power lift.
So you're not talking to me,your ads are not going to hit me
about what protein and whatstuff to do to get power lifting
status.
So if you know your products,if you don't know your product,
you need to figure that outfirst, and what niche is that
going to be to get the rewardfor the client buying it?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And I'll just add to that.
I think that a lot of times, ifyou're still trying to figure
that out, what you actually needto do is look at your own
journey.
I'm a big follower of thehero's journey.
I believe we live many hero'sjourneys.
We have one big hero's journeythat's made up of lots of little
heroes journeys, and thebiggest thing you can do as a
leader is share the experiencesyou've had with people who are
(24:05):
on the same journey, but behindyou.
Right, and that doesn't matterwhat gender you are, it doesn't
matter what age you are, itdoesn't matter what culture
you're from.
If they're having a sharedexperience that you've already
gone through, you have value toadd to them.
Right, and again, it could bebuilding a business, it could be
(24:25):
losing weight, it could bekeeping a marriage, it could be
finding a partner.
Every individual has a uniqueexperience in their life and
there is something there that isvaluable.
There is something there thatsomeone else is charging a lot
of money for.
So if you want to be confidentin what you do confidence comes
from a place of experience, likeif you've already done it you
can speak with conviction andclarity because you've figured
(24:48):
out a way to go through that Ifyou've yet to do it and you're
teaching up, so to speak, right,like, let's say, you've built a
business that's doing a hundredthousand a year, okay, and you
decide that you're going toteach businesses how to grow to
a hundred million, and you goand you read a hundred books,
right, and so your knowledge isthere.
The problem is is you've neverdone it, just because you have
(25:09):
the knowledge.
And so, yes, you could be aprofessor at a university and
teach these things and peopledon't seem to question you.
But the reality is, in the realworld, people are going to want
to see what you've done, andthere is people making money,
teaching up, right, but youdon't hear about them, right?
They're doing it under theradar and they're getting a few
suckers to buy from them.
But the people who, the peoplewho really do well, and doesn't
(25:33):
matter what industry, doesn'tmatter what product they're
selling, like it's they'reteaching from a place of
actually achievement andaccomplishment.
And so when they say something,it's them sharing their own
experience that they think willwork for you too.
And so that confidence that theyhave isn't something they've
had to gain, isn't somethingthey've had to go create, isn't
something they've had to.
They just have it because theyput in the reps, they put in the
(25:55):
work they've, they've got thescars to show.
And so when you question them,there's no crack in their armor
because they're like, yeah, thisis what I did, this is what
worked.
Whereas if someone asks you aquestion and you're like, well,
I don't really know, like here'ssome things you can try.
Well, they sense that lack ofconfidence in you because you
have no confidence, because youhave no clue.
(26:16):
You've never done it.
So that's what I reckon.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You're selling clue.
You've never done it.
So that's what I reckon whenyou're selling something, you're
selling a solution to a problem.
Even if it's a reward base,even if you're selling the
solution to getting more clientsand more finances for your
family, it's going to be you'resolving a problem.
So if they can show thatthey've solved the problem, that
is where the confidence comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yep, I agree.
Let's see what another question.
We got a lot, I'm just gonna doone more, okay.
Well, this is good.
It follows them, um from kevinin denver.
Aj, you talk a lot about howcertainty is a powerful
(27:00):
marketing tool.
How can I apply this concept tomy SaaS business, where my
features are constantly evolvingand it's hard to be certain
about anything?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Ooh, that was to you.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I know you're going to share something, but so
that's a great question, and Ithink the issue there is.
You mentioned how your featuresare changing, right.
I think that the way yousucceed as business is you
operate from a place of vision,right, and that vision and
(27:33):
mission that you have is yourguiding compass.
The products that you sell helppeople achieve what your
guiding compass is.
So, for example, for us withKartra Kartra came about because
we were tired of having techstacks and we were tired of tech
stacks breaking when we weresending a lot of traffic
(27:56):
launches, things like that.
We're spending a lot of moneyto get custom code.
We're spending a lot of moneyto build things that nobody else
has, because we want to haveupsells and downsells and then
cross-sells and we want to havelimited access to a product for
trials that then they can clicka button and get full access,
and so all these things thatweren't in existence.
Now they are, but but back thenthere wasn't Zapier.
(28:18):
You couldn't just plug intosomething, and so we wanted to.
We came to the conclusion thathow are we supposed to teach our
customers how to succeed whenthey can't do like, when we're
saying you need an upsell, butthere's no product that allowed
them to have an upsell easily,right?
It was like well, here's howyou do one.
It's really freaking difficultand you've got to get custom
coding and you've got to haveweb hooks and all this stuff.
(28:40):
I didn't know anything aboutback then.
So the concept was well, let'ssimplify business online, Like.
That was the concept, right?
And I think that when you lookat Webinar Jam, how that came
about, it was well, there isn'ta platform built specifically
for what we're trying to do, andthe one that exists that we're
(29:00):
kind of using but isn't designedfor it is very expensive.
So how are we supposed to teachour clients to do webinars when
it's going to cost them $1,000a month to just have an account,
when they've never made anymoney online before?
We're trying to get themstarted here, right?
So Webinar Jam came around as acheaper alternative specific to
what they wanted, but again,simplifying business online.
(29:22):
And so when you have a guidingcompass, it doesn't really
matter what features you havelike.
The benefits are what matter,and the benefits are what it
does for the client, and so aslong as the features continue to
um push towards that mission,then there's no lack of
confidence because you like, ifyou come out and you say like,
uh, um, I want to build.
(29:45):
Oh, I heard someone say theother day they, they built a
QuickBooks for advertising.
So basically the idea withQuickBooks is it simplifies your
taxes.
You go to one place, you do itall, everything's there.
Their platform.
The idea is you can come totheir platform and you can run
your ads everywhere.
Just simplifies running ads,right.
So that was the conceptSimplify advertising.
(30:07):
So what features does it have?
I don't care.
I understand what the platformdoes.
Just from that, they could add100 features.
Does it simplify advertising,yes or no?
If the answer is yes, we're onthe right path.
If the answer is no, then it'snot a good feature.
I believe that's how you end uphaving, I guess, confidence in
your marketing around.
(30:28):
Something is when you know whatthe mission is for that product
or for that company.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Especially software.
It's easy to have the missiondown, but if you're improving,
you know that you're finding thebetter solution within your own
software to make the solutionof their problem easier to get
to or cheaper to get to.
If you're improving, it's notto make your product more
expensive, it's not to make yourproduct harder to use, it's to
make it easier.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And if you're curious about, curious about like, look
at it further.
What I'm saying?
I'm a big fan of the virginbrand, right, but you can look
at disney, you can look at anyof these major brands.
Everything they do has tofollow a certain thing.
Right there there is a pulse ora uh personality to the
business that like has to align.
I just got back from Vegas and,um, you know, I went, I got up,
(31:18):
I used to when I lived there, Iused to walk the strip and um,
the, the group I was with dowalk, do a walking group every
morning.
Um, but the guys they were atthe other end of the strip,
their hotel.
So the first first day I wasthere, I just walked on my own,
like cause, I was like it'spretty far yeah.
I was like I'm just gonna walkcause I was in the middle of the
strip.
So I went up and I went throughExcalibur, you know a giant
(31:40):
castle, and as I'm walking in togo through there to the Luxor,
like to go across to the Luxorto the Mandalay Bay, I literally
thought to myself man, thishotel needs to be bought by
Disney and they should dosomething because it is outdated
, like this, is already a castlelike Disney.
And then it hit me I was likeDisney probably would never come
to Vegas because, even thoughthey would do well there,
(32:02):
there's a stigma that it's SinCity and I'm not sure it fits
the brand vision if it, ifthere's a couple of licensing
deals there that have someDisney experiences but is an
actual Disney coming to Vegas?
It would have to be seen as afamily-friendly place.
It would have to be seen as,not as what Vegas typically
(32:24):
comes across, as With Virgin,richard Branson's cheekiness and
every Virgin product has thatside of it.
It has that sassiness, it hasthat like screw the big guy
right.
It has these elements that itdoesn't matter what business
that Virgin goes into.
They take that philosophy withthem and I believe that that's
(32:45):
where the confidence comes thatthey can do so well, because you
know, you know, yeah, you'redifferent, but you also stand
for something and when you standfor something, even if people
don't agree with you, like otherpeople are attracted to that,
and that's really what it comesdown to.
If you're like, if someone saysto you you know what's your
software the best at and you'relike, eh, it's just, I mean, it
(33:07):
does the same as all these otherones.
Why would I buy your software?
But if, if, if someone saidwhat's your software the best at
, and you literally saidmarketing or automations for
online marketers, boom, that'ssomething right.
And so go back to the categoryof one conversation, like the
red ocean versus blue ocean.
(33:28):
You always want to create yourown uniqueness, but at the same
time, sometimes you can beunique by just being specific to
what that mission is.
Your mission can be what makesthe product unique.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And software is not that hard to do and you narrow
it down that way.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, exactly, we got some experience with that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
A little bit.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
All right, everyone that's it for this episode of
Paid to Create Enjoyed answeringyour questions.
If you have more, go ahead andleave those on.
You can leave those on, on ourinbox.
Yeah, I guess.
Go to paidcreatecom and you cansubmit those questions there or
leave them on the YouTubechannel.
For those of you listening onsome other podcast platform,
please like and subscribe andwe'll.
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