February 26, 2020 • 39 mins
American history is fraught with contradictions and incomplete—or sometimes outright wrong—interpretations. We were confronted with this head-on at Little Bighorn National Monument in southern Montana. The place serves as a monument to the Battle of Little Bighorn, which took place in June of 1876 between new settlers and the Lakota-Northern Cheyenne and Arapaho peoples. Until 1991, this site was named in honor of General George Armstrong Custer. In this episode we'll talk about what we learned (and what we had to un-learn) about the tragic history of the battle that gave this monument its name.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, let me just start by saying that I feel
totally misled by my elementary school teachers about American history
and the Battle of Little Big Horn. That well, my
memories of it foggy, But whenever I would think of
a Little Big Horn and Custer's last stand, I thought
of General Custer as the protagonist, like a noble avenger
on the frontier. But as we discovered from our time
(00:20):
at Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument in Montana, that
is decidedly not really the case. Oh not at all.
It was definitely one of those more eye opening and
emotional trips to a national park for us, right up
there with Gettysburg. It's a modest park, but we learned
more in a few hours here than probably the entire
year of sixth grade wherever, whatever year that was. Yeah,
(00:41):
I mean, there's a chance I wasn't really paying attention
during that class, probably because it was topped by the
same teacher who made me literally wrap about hades, So
I tended to just block her out after that, like
she's dead to me. But I I remember things totally
wrong from like what I'm trying to piece together now.
But still I felt like one of those emoji is
with the part of their head blowing off an enlightened
(01:02):
shock like a Little Bighorn is just mind blowing. We're
both just a couple of enlightened mojis after this trip.
But that's for sure, um, So let's get right into
it and share experience at Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument. Hi.
I'm Matt and I'm Brad. This is park Landia production
of I Heart Radio. We sold our all oft in Chicago,
(01:23):
moved into an r V, and now we're travling the
country full time with our dog fan exploring America's national parks,
and this week's episode is on a Little Big Horn
Battlefield National Monument in Montana history. So, for those of
you who are like me and have very foggy misconceptions
(01:45):
about Little Bighorn, or perhaps you were my classmates at St.
Athany's and Manchester, New Hampshire and you were also ignoring
Mrs Lensky, let's clear some of the basic facts for you. Yeah.
Do you think your teacher has any idea that she's
being been a recurring her on our podcast? Yeah, that's
a good question. We've I've talked about her in at
least three episodes at this point, which is kind of
(02:07):
crazy because I haven't thought about her in like twenty years,
but now she's like literally a recurring character in my life.
She probably she has no idea, though, and I wonder
where she is. I give her, I know, I give
her a lot of flak now, but she really was
pretty great. She clearly left an impression, even though she
was a hardass, and I'll give it to her that
(02:28):
she thought way outside of the box. I mean, what
other teacher would make their their students wrap about Greek
gods or any of that, but she did. Also, she
also gave me my first attention. So mixed feelings you've
had Wait wait you said your first probably probably had
multiple I think. I remember. Sixth grade was my rebellious
year where I just like got crazy and like like
(02:52):
got sent to the principal's office and had to have
my parents signed notes. I don't know I was rebelling hard.
I was really docile and nice through fifth grade and
I just went heywire. I definitely had a lot of
detention suspensions, all the all the above. You're lucky you
didn't have Mrs Linsky. She would not I mean, like,
where would we be without Mrs Lisinski though I know
(03:13):
it's kind of like the butterfly effect, you know, except
this is the Mrs Linsky effect. Like if I hadn't
had her, where would I be? Would probably be completely different?
Probably not here today to talk about the Battle of
Little Big Horn. Um, but we're going to get into
that now because that's what we're actually here to talk about, right, Yeah,
So first a refresher on American history. Little Big Horn
(03:37):
Battlefield is located in southern Montana. It's about halfway between
the middle of the state and the eastern portion of
the state. The state is huge, in case you didn't
know that. Um, it's close to the Wyoming border and
about three and a half hours from Yellowstone. The closest
like bigger city is Building Spontana, which is about an
hour west of the park, and it serves as a
(03:57):
monument to the Battle of Little Big Horn, which took
as June six in eighteen seventy six, weirdly exactly one
years after just the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Yeah,
that's oddly poetic and a kind of dark way, or
a very dark way, yeah, especially because it illustrates the
ongoing struggles between Native Americans and new settlers, and how
(04:19):
it most certainly did not end right away, like still
it's still going on today. So yeah, it's really sad
um as this battlefield was, and this monument is um.
Actually it's a nice memorial and for the legacy of
the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and Rapaho people's Yeah. Nice might
be subjective though. The battle alone was definitely a violent tragedy,
(04:41):
but over the ensuing years this place was fraught with
even more drama and even more conflict, mostly because for
a long time the battlefield was preserved primarily to commemory
and celebrate General Custer and his American troops, Like excuse me,
a lot of Native American history, including the important fact
that they were being a grestfully forced off their land,
(05:02):
especially with this battle um, has been erased and glossed over, Yeah,
which is nuts. And over the years, starting in eighteen
seventy nine, when the site was first preserved as a U. S.
National cemetery to protect the graves of cavalry troops, a
little big horn took on all these different phases and
monikers like National Cemetery of Custer's Battlefield Reservation in eighteen
(05:22):
six and even more egregious Custer Battlefield National Monument in nine. Yes,
in nineteen seventy six, the American Indian Movement finally put
their foot down and protested the name of the site um,
which they've done this, they were doing this for years
up until that point, but they really got into it,
um as I was being preserved, like it's just it's
(05:42):
not right since it primarily honored Custer and his side
of the battle, UM, which they felt was literally an
act of genocide. Yeah. I know, it's crazy to me,
and it's crazy and sad that it got to this
point where they needed to be like, hey, remember this
wasn't like a one sided this isn't black and um.
And they felt like they were being like fully attacked
(06:06):
and murdered and genocide. So I get it. I don't
remember exactly what the lesson plan entailed for me in
elementary school, so I don't remember like what I initially learned,
but I sure remember it like praising Custer at least
I'm sure it did. Like I remember growing up thinking
he was kind of in the hero role. Yeah, I
(06:26):
mean in in American history, he really was. And you know,
there is a lot of There are a lot of
times where he was on the right side. But great
men can still mess up. Uh. I want to be surprised, though, because,
judging by how confusing this place was for so many years,
it's hard to figure out exactly what happened here, who
(06:47):
deserves to be honored, and who should be taking top billing.
It's not all black and white. Yeah, very gray, very blurry.
I think like a little big horn is as confluted
as it gets, really, but still one important and bottom
line is that General Custer isn't the noble like heroic
Steed I was initially led to believe. I'll give him
this though. His name Custer always does make me think
(07:10):
of custard. And that's a pleasant well aside that I'll take.
I guess that's a good way to find a silver lining.
It's a little weird, but you do you Yeah, you know.
I gotta find lovity wherever I can, especially with a
place like this, and dessert is always a good go
to for me. I always compare things to like suites
and stuff and custard. It literally sounds the custard, so
(07:31):
give me that. So anyway, finally, in nineteen one, the
site was renamed Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument and
formalized by President George H. W. Bush, which I mean
took long enough. Yeah, this was years and years um
after name change after name change, shuffling the park around
to the Secretary of War, to the National Register of
(07:51):
Historic Places, to the National Park Service. I mean, that's
just been shuffled and reshuffled, and so a lot of
the history is still not accurate and what we needed
to be right. I feel like all these different organizations
are basically playing like hot potato with Big Horn Battlefield,
you know, just bouncing it around from one place in
the next, renaming it here, renaming it there. It was
(08:14):
very confusing and very blurry over the years, which maybe
is why all the way back in fifth grade, I
was so confused and unsure what was learning and who
these people were and what these events were. But a
Little Big Horn Battlefield is actually also now on the
National Register of Historic Places, which that fits fine, and
I went through a fit about that. So memorials started
(08:36):
being added by bearing soldiers bodies in the ground exactly
where they were found, until one when they were dug
up and re entered by this new Grand memorial constructed
at the top of Last Stand Hill, and they initially
put stakes on the ground where the bodies were found,
but eventually upgraded to marvel markers, and we saw a
lot of them while we were here, yes we did.
(08:57):
But the thing I like most is how the monument
was finally renamed honor the Native Americans as well. This
included adding an Indian memorial near Last Stand Hill. And
once again, it's about time now, so now fittingly there
are also markers and memorials honor like honoring warriors like
Crazy Horse. Um even added red granite markers to further
(09:18):
highlight them and where they died in combat. Today, you
look out over a Little Big Horn and you just
see this expanse of both ride granite markers and white
marble markers. So, like you said, it's definitely not black
and white at all. I mean, it's technically white marble.
But the events of what happened here in eighteen seventy
six and the following years require research and most importantly,
(09:38):
I think personal experience. When we visited a Little Big Horn,
it was the same time period when we were visiting
Yellowstone over the summer. We were staying near Cody, Wyoming
for the rodeo a few days before, and we had
a rental car. Well, the RV was stationed at the
r V park, So on one day that didn't I
(10:02):
didn't have to work, we decided to make the long
drive up to a Little Big Horn and back. Yeah,
a little ambitious, It was definitely a long drive and
I dropped the whole way by the way, which is
probably a nice change of pace for you. You're not
used to that, right, Yeah, you got to sit by
and relax. It was like two and a half hours
each way, so a lot of drive, a lot more
(10:22):
than I'm used to, which I'm used to zero, so yeah,
and I drive a little bit more in that with
a twenty six r V and a little bit more
weight and speed restrictions behind it. But yeah, we won't
get to cement. I mean for me, it helped that
the speed liam in s Montana or like nine, so
time is literally flying by, literally, but anyway, we're able
(10:45):
to arrive in a Little Big Horn by late morning.
They make the most of the day. Good timing museum,
and it is with most parks. We started in the
visitor center in museum and the little Big Horn had
an excellent museum totally. Yeah, there's just really something about
historic battlefield Parks. I think they have some of the
best most immersive museums we've ever seen. And the same
(11:07):
thing as Eric Gettysburg, same thing is true here. We've
spent a good while just strolling through and reading and
learning because it's all here, like so much history and
so much context. So I just you know, we just
play hooky and fifth grade come here, learn everything in
a day, and it'll stick with you far longer. I promise.
This is definitely the kind of stuff that burns itself
(11:28):
into your brain and your memory. Um. Now, while there's
like a screat museum, there's definitely more and more history
to dive into, and there's more ways to expand and
become more knowing throughout this. That's definitely for sure, So
take it for its initial value of educating you enough
to dig deeper. Um, that's uh. You know. One of
(11:50):
the great things, um, some of the most power stuff
in the museum is all the materials collected from the
battlefield itself, like ammunition, soldiers, equipment, tools, and even horsebone.
So gross. I can't even deal with the horse bones
like I'm the type a person who I can't watch
movies with war battles, and that's primarily because I get
upset about horses. Like when the horses are running a battle,
(12:12):
I'm like, what about no, Like, they didn't choose this.
They don't. Horses don't go to war. They like are
forced to participate in it. But you know, leave the
horses out of it. I don't want to. I don't
see that. Well, then you're not gonna light this fact.
Horses played a huge role in the Battle of a
Little Big One. I hate it. When Lieutenant George As
Godfrey visited Custer Hill two days after the battle, he
(12:33):
noted that there were forty two dead men and thirty
nine dead horses here. That would explain why I saw
a little horse cemetery up by Last Stand Hill when
I was out there walking around, And I was definitely
not emotionally ready for that, and I'm still not emotionally
ready to talk about it. It's hard to see place.
I mean, it's not one that's uh coated with beautiful tails.
(12:56):
And it's important to realize that these animals gave their
lives to it's so nice to see them commemorated as well. Yeah,
I guess that's true when you look at it that way,
Like they gave their lives as well, so it's nice
to see them commemorated, even though stumbling unexpectedly across the
Horse Seminate Cemetery definitely does look like something out of
(13:17):
a Steaphen King novel. It's like past cemetery, but with
like a battlefield twist. But let's get back to the museum.
There's also a huge collection of historic photos, manuscripts, maps,
art and records. UM. This place is perfect to really
dig into that, like the context and to try to
start understanding it for yourself for the first time. UM.
(13:40):
And the information of the Battle of Little Big Horn,
what led to it, and what happened after absolutely, because
evidently you and I were both going in completely clueless.
So thankfully there's this incredible museum to guide us along battlefield.
So the battle took place on the bluffs, ravines and
do just that surround the Little Big Horn River. It's
(14:02):
not a mountainous area. It's mostly rolling hills and meadows
as far as the eye can see. It's really pretty,
very tranquil today, but it was utter chaos in eighteen
seventy six when the Lakota, Sioux, Northern Cheyenne, and Arapaho
tribes came to a head against the seventh Regiment of
the U. S. Cavalry. Yeah, it was a gruesome and
fierce battle. Um of Native Plains tribes pushing back against
(14:23):
Americans westwards expansion. Um and the men who aggressively spearheaded
that movement. Yeah, it all started in eighteen sixty eight
when the government tried to persuade Lakota leaders to sign
the Treaty of Fort Laramie, which would mean ending their
automatic lifestyle and moving to a reservation in South Dakota.
But famous Lakoda leaers like Crazy Horse and Sitting Bill
rejected the eight the treaty as it would mean giving
(14:45):
up their way of life for one, restricting their hunting,
and essentially being beholden to government subsidies. So things weren't
looking good right away, and they only got worse in
eighteen seventy four, when Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer was
sent on a research trip through the Black Hills the
find a fitting military site and document the area's natural resources.
But on the trip, geologists discovered gold, and this triggered
(15:08):
a huge gold rush to minors to the area. So
the government once again was trying to push la Quota
tribes off their land by purchasing the Black Hills from them.
I feel like it always started out gold and greedy
gold rushes like unsurprisingly, yeah, but again the Lakota. The
Lakota tribes said now, okay, fair enough, And since the
government didn't understand that no means no, they couldn't just
(15:31):
acknowledge this and respect it. They only escalated the situation
by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ordering them to move
to a reservation by January one eighty and you can
probably guess that they did not do that. So in
the following months, generals from throughout the region started assembling
troops and migrating towards the Lakota and Chan tribes with
(15:51):
the intent to force them onto a reservation. Uh Custer
was leading the seventh Cavalry, which was a large portion
of the troops yeah a lot. With General Philip Sheridan,
Colonel John Gibbon, and General George Crook, Custer began to
descend on the Little Big Horn region in June, when
all three tribes were gathered for their annual sundance ceremony.
At the time, Sitting Bowl actually had a vision of
(16:13):
soldiers collapsing into their village, which made them feel like
a victory of some sort was on the horizon, Like
he was like prophesizing that something might happen, but they'll
the tribestle emerge victorious now. So Custers set up a
nightcamp nearby on June and sent out scouts to report
back on the location of the tribes. By the morning
of June, customers men were perched by the Wolf Mountains,
(16:37):
only about twelve miles from the Little Big Horn River.
Once he suspected that Indian warriors had discovered them, he
commanded in an immediate attack on the village, which was
estimated to have about eight thousand people. So the first
astall took place along Little Big Horn River, where three
companies commanded by Major Marcus Reno met warriors for the
(16:57):
first time. He wund up withdrawing and fleeing, but warriors
chased them down and really weakened its troops to the
point where they had to scurry up some bluffs on
the other side of the river, and they were stuck
here under fire from warriors until the following morning. Meanwhile,
Custer had led troops north along some bluffs to an
area called Medicine Trail, where some fighting occurred. Once the
(17:19):
warriors had pushed Reno back to the top of the hill,
they begun to move forward towards Custer. Yeah, so at
this point the seventh Cavalry was severely outnumbered in dwin Ling,
and they were starting to realize that like they were
in way over their heads, and they kept being pushed
back further and further into precarious situations like the present
day Last Stand site, where many of them cornered were
cornered and eventually killed because they couldn't successfully escape. And
(17:42):
this is where that giant granted memorial was built in
eight one. Even though the battle was technically a victory
for Lakota and Gyant tribes people's, it only enraged the U.
S Government and made them want to force them onto
reservations even more um Less than one year later, they
had surrendered and given up the Black Hill as well,
and they were not paid for anything for him. Yeah. Basically,
(18:04):
this whole saga was just one epic lose lose in
the most greesome way. You are listening to Park Glandia
from my Heart Radio. Hi, I'm Matt and I'm Brad.
(18:26):
This is part Glandia in today's episode is on Little
Baycorn Battlefield National Monument in Montana. Now, the main man
at the center of this story in this monument, and
the source of a lot of confusion as well, is
General Armstrong Custer. So I think it's important to talk
more about him and as past as well. Oh for sure. Yeah,
he's a complicated and complex figure, like more so than
(18:48):
anyone we've talked about or learned about by far. And
he's not overtly and the wrong, but he's definitely not
in the right either. Yeah. He was born in Ohio
in eight nine and initially wanted to become a teacher
before attending West Point Military Academy. He wound up graduating
the last in his class in eighteen sixty one. They
made up for it by volunteering and proving himself as
(19:10):
a reliable hard worker. And this was during the Civil
War when volunteers and hard workers were needed most, and
he was such a hard worker that he actually got
promoted all the way up to General of Volunteers of
the Michigan cavalry brigade and eventually up to major general
by the end of the war. He became famous as
a leader by always entering battle from the front, like
he was literally the first person to engage with combatants,
(19:32):
which is terrifying and also super brave. He found in
several battles against Confederate forces and rarely ever received any injuries,
which is why he earned the nickname Custer Luck. The
only wound he got was from an artillery shell during
the Battle of Culpepper Courthouse. That's crazy considering he's always
leaving the charge. That's that's pretty impressive and very lucky. Yeah,
(19:55):
So this hard work and loyalty and all his efforts
of the Civil War were all great. It all noble,
you know. That's awesome, And that's why his history is
not black and white by any means. And he certainly
didn't go rogue and attack the Indian village on his
own or anything. He was just following orders like he's
always done. So that's why he's such a complex figure,
I think is you can't take one instance or one
(20:18):
battle from his whole career and just like judge him
based on that, because he did really brave heroic things, sure,
but he also did atrocious things. But then you also
have to weigh the fact that he didn't do them
on his own course. He didn't just charge into Montana
one morning and be like, I'm gonna commit genocide today.
You know. That's why it sounds easy to talk about
(20:40):
the Little Big Horn Battlefield because it's so complicated. You
can kind of see both sides, but ultimately you have
to realize that none of this would have ever happened
if the government didn't aggressively try to force Native Americans
off their land exactly. And while you're at a Little
Big Horn, you can get out and experience it for
yourself too, which is what we love and that's how
we came way learning so much. There aren't really any
(21:02):
hiking trails or like outdoor activities here. It's mostly self
guided walks and stuff like that. Like we did the
Deep Ravine Trail, which is an easy half mile round
trip trail near the visitor center. And this goes down
into the basin by Last Stand Hill, and it's got
a self guided trail map that goes with it, so
you can read about important historical facts along the way
(21:22):
and see all the different memorial markers in the tall
grasses that surround it. Yeah, that was that was pretty amazing,
very cool. Somber, but cool. There's also Custer National Cemetery,
which looks like amNY Arlington kind of where graves are
marked for known and unknown veterans. It's one of fifty
cemeteries in what's called the National Cemetery system across the country,
(21:43):
and one of only fourteen that the National Park Service
manages now. The cemetery was created after those who died
here were already buried on the ground, which is how
most national cemeteries operate. Several bodies have since been moved, though,
including Custer. Yeah, he was reinterred at West Point. Another
cool thing you can do here is drive along the
tour road, which is about four and a half miles
(22:05):
with an accompanying cell phone audio tour option. But I
think you actually I bought a CD at the visitor center. Yeah,
I definitely did. A Rhino Clar had a CD player,
So we're actually put it in there and just pause
it and listen as we drove from stop to stop. Yeah,
I haven't used the CD in a long time. Actually,
I don't. I don't think I've had a CD since
like the last Now that's what I call music Volume
(22:27):
seventy six or whatever. It's been a long time. But
we could like call this audio tour c D. Like now,
that's what I call Little Bighorn. Right. Does that work?
I don't know, yeah, I mean the narration was a
little weird and dull, so maybe the cellphone tour is livelier.
I don't know, yeah, but it got the job done.
It gave us enough like education to just start to
(22:50):
understand the process of how the battle went out and
it was laid out and why it was put together
that way. Since the road in the landscape is prett
plane yeah, literally like their planes, so plane planes. And
then the most recent side of the park is the
Indian Memorial. And like we said about damn time, construction
(23:11):
of the memorial was ordered in ninete and a designer
was selected in n and it was finally finally unveiled
in two thousand three, formally titled the Peace Their Unity
Indian Memorial. It's a beautiful memorial crossed the road from
the Last Stand Hill, designed to honor the Native Americans
who died during combat protecting their land and their culture.
(23:34):
As well as their children. It's important to note that
it wasn't just Custers last stand here either, it was
also the potential last stand for local Indians who have
called this place home for centuries. And the sculpture of
three warriors riding on horseback, which was designed by Oglala
sto artist Colleen cutchel Ak sister Wolf, is perfectly sat
so that it looks like they're riding along the Montana
(23:55):
Prairie in the background. It's really beautiful. The memorial. I
love the memorial. Now this is the hard the memorial,
which is a large circle that has red dirt in
the middle and a stone walkway around it. There are
panels for each tribe who fought in the battle as well,
and the most emotional part is the weeping wall, where
water is consistently flowing down into a pool designed to
(24:16):
represent tears for fallen warriors and soldiers. Yeah, I'm definitely
weeping like thinking about that. It's powerful stuff. And it
gets even better, or by better, I mean more heartbreaking.
But the memorial is constructed so that you can actually
see the Seventh Cavalry Monument from the weeping Wall, signifying
that both warriors and soldiers are welcome and memorial together
in a symbol of unity, like very beautiful, very full circle.
(24:41):
And it's great to see it all come together this way,
especially after such an epic tragedy and then the years
and years and decades of ensuing like drama and like
renaming and disrespecting. It's absolutely I mean, it's just one
of those crazy experiences where you realize what we learned
(25:02):
in school or didn't learn or didn't learn is hopefully
not what they're still learning today. Yeah, I can only hope. Food.
Once we were done a little big horn, we were starving,
so we drove outside the park and across the road
(25:22):
to this place called Custer Battlefield Trading Post, which has
a huge shop filled with Native American goods and clothes,
and there's also a restaurant. Yeah. I mean, they should
probably update the name of the restaurant to reflect the
national monument. But I still loved it. I can blame them, really,
there was so much renaming of this place that they
have to have a whole new business license and business
(25:43):
plan because it keeps on getting renamed. Very confusing. But
our server was wonderful and the restaurant was so warm
and cozy, It really just felt like this huge lodge.
And they had like one of my favorite foods ever.
They had the Indian tacos o k a fried bread
heaped with beans, cheese, tomatoes, lettuce, and they even have
a sweet version with honey for dipping. Yeah. I kind
(26:04):
of wanted to get that, but you know, I just
love the I can't say no to the taco. It's
you can't really eat it like in a traditional taco
like handheld form because it's really layered and it would
get really messy. But it's a great like knife and
fork taco. It's like a savory like fried dough about
perfect with a little cup of coffee. Yeah, yeah, it
really was. Bottom was got cups of coffee. It's great.
(26:26):
But it was a great little place. There's a lot
of um and tourist de esque items in their shops
and even some authentic Native American paintings and sculptures and
things that you can purchase as well, so it was
a good mix of um all of your needs. Yeah,
it really was. It was a fun store to wander
(26:47):
around for a little bit after after lunch. Any tacos. Yeah,
and we definitely decided to leave the RV back because
driving it here would have been really difficult because we
weren't like going through here. We definitely wanted to make
the effort to visit this national battlefield, right. And I
think this is a great example of being mindful of
(27:08):
gas with o r V because that's by far the
biggest expense with our r V, and driving from where
we were staying to here and back in the same
day would have been like five hours round trip. It
would have been actually six six and a half because
the RV doesn't go up. I mean it can, but
we're not driving in at ninety can that would be terrifying. Yeah. Um.
(27:30):
And so basically, you know, once you get into seven hours,
you're talking about at least a hundred and fifty dollars
in fuel versus taking a car five hours round trip.
It's a big difference. So it's like just that day's
rental plus that is still cheaper than getting totally worth
it that yeah, it's with it, So that's something to
(27:50):
factor in and it all worked out great. Also, taking
a car it leaves less anxiety for us because we're
not leaving the RV somewhere and you know, we know
that it's secure hooked up somewhere. So there's a lot
of things like that that just allowed us the freedom
to do different things because like I couldn't imagine doing
that like car tour with the audio book in the
r V, because it would just be a little not fun,
(28:13):
not exactly, Yeah, totally narrow. And our V does not
have a CD player, so we'll be out of luck
with without Little Beauty. Yeah, and so this really just
allowed us to connect with the National Park and not
and leave our baggage or our home at home. Yeah. Literally. Ecology, yes,
(28:36):
and our ecological concept of the day is fire dependent ecosystems. Yes.
On the surface, it would seem that fire and ecosystems
do not mix. Fire can be dangerous to plants and
animals obviously. I mean, that's what's causing hundreds of thousands
of people to evacuate their homes in California right a year.
It's it's horrifying. But the human relationship with fire and
(28:57):
ecosystems is different from an ecosystems relationship with fire. This
world is filled with fire food, after all. Oxygenen is
what fire eats, and there's plenty of it here on Earth. Yeah,
this planet has been burning since it was formed, and
it's even been argued that humans couldn't have evolved the
way that we have without the ability to make fire
work for us fascinating, However, fire has the potential to
(29:21):
destroy what we've built, our homes, communities, and our agricultural land. Yes,
and for at least a portion of human history, we've
tried to keep fire and ecosystems separate, which is of
course impossible because lightning always strikes eventually. But the more
that ecologists study fire, the more they realize that it's
actually acts like a living, breathing organism. In an ecosystem
(29:46):
where fire is allowed to do its thing, there might
be a handful of fires every year, of varying sizes, intensity,
and type. Um A ground fire might breathe through burning
just organic soil, or it might be accompanied by a
surface fire that done grasses, low growing shrubs, and forest litter. Yes,
and then there's crown fires, which might happen after a
lightning storm and burn through the tree canopy. As long
(30:09):
as fire isn't suppressed, it's unlikely that any of these
will be very destructive, at least as long as your
house is not in the way of it. Yeah, I've
literally been there, Like yeahson experience PTSD, I get it.
Some ecosystems actually require fire to function. Um and the
grasslands a Little Bighorn National Monument are one of them. Yeah,
(30:32):
America's grassland prairies are not what they once were. Human
agriculture has removed most of the blue bunch wheat grass,
sandberg blue grass, and june grass that used to dominate
the prairies of the Midwest, but fire has historically been
essential in promoting seed production, keeping woody plants from sneaking
into the ecosystem, and basically keeping grasslands grassy. Although lightning
(30:53):
is the main way the fires are started in the
prairie ecosystem, like the one you see at Little Big Horn,
there's a lot of evidence that Native Americans started fires
to drive game, to promote the production of seeds in
the plants they like to eat, almost like a weapon
in a battle to clear the land for travel. Uh.
These days, the National Parks Service actually ignites and closely
(31:15):
manages fires in the Little Big Horn and other parks
where fire is an important member of a healthy ecosystem,
much like in the Everglades. Yeah, we've seen this in
a handful of parks and read a lot about it.
The the benefits of fire as long as you know
it's the right setting and it's obviously not arson, because yes,
(31:36):
that's never good. But and there's times like a Yellowstone
where you know, in the eighties we had that huge fire,
and that's because we kept on putting out all these
small fires and not allowing it to kind of take
its course. So then this one happened, which was by
human error but still happened. Um Basically, that cigarette but
(31:56):
lit up the forest and it demolished most of yellow
Stones ecosystem. But by allowing it to do what it
needs to do and kind of helping it in those
ways and doing it in small batches, that's really what
they're kind of talking about, this concept of like fire
dependent ecosystems exactly. You are listening to park Landia, a
(32:20):
production of I Heart Radio. Hi, I'm Matt and I'm Brad.
This is park Landian, and today we're talking about Little
Big Horn Battlefield National Monument in Montana, my favorite. But
now that we've sufficiently wept um, it's really time to
(32:41):
wrap up our episode on Little Big Horn and share
with each other a favorite part of this national monument. Yeah,
so per usual, we haven't told it other our answers,
so it's all a surprise what our little favorite moments
were from Little Big Horn. So do you want to
start with what your favorite thing about this park was?
My favorite thing about this park was that going they're reading,
(33:09):
um looking through history at the museums, even looking to
their book collections. UM. I really realized that there's much
more research to do about Native American culture and history.
UM in can like junction with American history in the
aspect of like civil wars and timelines to understand like
(33:32):
what we were actually doing at the same time. So
there's so much more history to dive into. And that's
what for me a Little Big Horn was just that
I still have a lot of learning to do, and
I there's a lot more ways to open up my
eyes to make sure that I can understand what is
American history and not just written from the Americans side.
(33:54):
Beautiful I Mine is kind of similar. I would say
if I'm picking up a specific thing or site, the
piece through unity Indian memorial like easily takes the cake.
I thought, it's just a gorgeous memorial in and of itself,
but also what it symbolizes, and like in general with
the park on the whole, I think it symbolizes how
(34:16):
much I learned and what I took away and how
it really rattled me. I went here and I was like, wait,
like what I learned in fifth grade is not accurate.
Granted I don't remember much, but like it really kind
of shook me up, and ultimately that was a very
positive thing. So it shows how complicated American history is,
especially in relation to Native Americans, and especially during this
(34:37):
time when this battle took place, and it's just not
as cut and dry, not nearly as black and white
as I thought this particular moment in history was, and
very just fascinating. There's a lot to learn here and
it's a very eye opening park, and just that I
think it's my favorite. Also, I do want to shout
(35:01):
out to Mrs Lisiansk from fifth grade. I know you
tried your best, bless your heart. I don't remember what
your curriculum was. I'm sure it was well intentioned, but
it'd be really fun. It's not. It's now kind of
this weird goal of mine. I would love to go
to a little bit or in Battlefield National Monument with
Miss Lisiansk have this like this beautiful like reunion there.
(35:21):
And so if she's somehow miraculously she somehow was listening
and here's this, I would love to do that and
she should. She should like be a guest like we've
talked about her and in our podcast now. So I
really think it's one of those things that we should um.
And that's because there's so much more to learn and
we need to keep on educating ourselves, keep on traveling,
keep on trying to understand this beautiful culture in history
(35:44):
that we live in the United States, because it's very complex,
very deep, many layers, and there's so much out there. Yeah,
I think the number one thing that I would bring
is to open eyes, to open ears. Yeah, in an
open mind and an open mind, and to shut my
(36:04):
mouth because I just want to learn. I want to see,
I want to visualize, because you have to come in
here with an open mind. Yes you do. There's a
lot to take in. So you've gotta make room for
for all this new knowledge that you're learning, because there
is really is a ton here. And I think you
should also bring what like I think your compact car
(36:25):
or rental car, like for us, if you're rving, that's
something to be mindful of, unless you're lucky enough to
be like camping right down the street or something where
kind of negligible. But if you're making any sort of
a haul here, then it could be economically challenging. I'll
tell you one thing to not bring. Do not bring
hiking shoes. Don't come here with like all your national
(36:47):
parks like back camping swag, because you don't need it.
It's definitely a small place that's very manageable, um a
lot of a D A accessible accessibility. I think the
whole heart where anyone else can walk, it's very a
D accessible. Yeah, I think one thing, Yeah, you don't
need like hiking shoes or hiking boots or anything like that.
(37:08):
But I think it would be what not to come
here and like anything fancy by any means. Because I
say that because we're here on like a drizzly day
and I was walking around by the Inny Memorial and
stepped in like a pretty deep thing of mud and
made my shoes. So I mean, I wasn't wearing like
hiking boots, but I wasn't wearing dress shoes or anything
(37:29):
by any means, So bring a rain jacketing jacking just
in case, just in case, check the weather, and then
appropriate weather thing, dress accordingly. All the parks we visited
and talked about, I really feel like a little Big
Horn was just a huge therapeutic lesson for me. It
really was. I have a lot of feelings about it,
as you can tell, and I mean I should. Any
(37:50):
anyone should if they visited this place. And I deserve
these feelings. I think we all do. A little Big
Horn is complicated, it's emotional, it's sad, and it's so
important to American history. And even though it's taken a
long time and there's still farther ways to go, it's
nice to see history moving forward in the right direction
and bringing us all along this journey of learning together.
(38:15):
You've been listening to park Landia, a show about national parks.
Parklandids the production of My Heart Radio, created by Matt Carouac,
Brad Carouac and Christopher hasiotis produced and edited by Mike John's.
Our executive producer is Christopher hasiotis our researcher. It's Jescelyn
shield A special things goes out to Gabrielle Collins, Christal
Waters and the rest of the Parklandia crew and Hey listeners,
(38:37):
If you're enjoying the show, leave us a review on
Apple Podcasts. It helps other people like you find our show.
You can keep up with us on social media as well.
Check out our photos from our travels on Instagram at
Parklandia Pod and join in on the conversation and our
Facebook group Parklandia Rangers. From our podcast my heart Radio,
visit the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
(38:57):
listen to your favorite shows, and as always, the thing
you for listening mm hm
Well, let me just start by saying that I feel
totally misled by my elementary school teachers about American history
and the Battle of Little Big Horn. That well, my
memories of it foggy, But whenever I would think of
a Little Big Horn and Custer's last stand, I thought
of General Custer as the protagonist, like a noble avenger
on the frontier. But as we discovered from our time
(00:20):
at Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument in Montana, that
is decidedly not really the case. Oh not at all.
It was definitely one of those more eye opening and
emotional trips to a national park for us, right up
there with Gettysburg. It's a modest park, but we learned
more in a few hours here than probably the entire
year of sixth grade wherever, whatever year that was. Yeah,
(00:41):
I mean, there's a chance I wasn't really paying attention
during that class, probably because it was topped by the
same teacher who made me literally wrap about hades, So
I tended to just block her out after that, like
she's dead to me. But I I remember things totally
wrong from like what I'm trying to piece together now.
But still I felt like one of those emoji is
with the part of their head blowing off an enlightened
(01:02):
shock like a Little Bighorn is just mind blowing. We're
both just a couple of enlightened mojis after this trip.
But that's for sure, um, So let's get right into
it and share experience at Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument. Hi.
I'm Matt and I'm Brad. This is park Landia production
of I Heart Radio. We sold our all oft in Chicago,
(01:23):
moved into an r V, and now we're travling the
country full time with our dog fan exploring America's national parks,
and this week's episode is on a Little Big Horn
Battlefield National Monument in Montana history. So, for those of
you who are like me and have very foggy misconceptions
(01:45):
about Little Bighorn, or perhaps you were my classmates at St.
Athany's and Manchester, New Hampshire and you were also ignoring
Mrs Lensky, let's clear some of the basic facts for you. Yeah.
Do you think your teacher has any idea that she's
being been a recurring her on our podcast? Yeah, that's
a good question. We've I've talked about her in at
least three episodes at this point, which is kind of
(02:07):
crazy because I haven't thought about her in like twenty years,
but now she's like literally a recurring character in my life.
She probably she has no idea, though, and I wonder
where she is. I give her, I know, I give
her a lot of flak now, but she really was
pretty great. She clearly left an impression, even though she
was a hardass, and I'll give it to her that
(02:28):
she thought way outside of the box. I mean, what
other teacher would make their their students wrap about Greek
gods or any of that, but she did. Also, she
also gave me my first attention. So mixed feelings you've
had Wait wait you said your first probably probably had
multiple I think. I remember. Sixth grade was my rebellious
year where I just like got crazy and like like
(02:52):
got sent to the principal's office and had to have
my parents signed notes. I don't know I was rebelling hard.
I was really docile and nice through fifth grade and
I just went heywire. I definitely had a lot of
detention suspensions, all the all the above. You're lucky you
didn't have Mrs Linsky. She would not I mean, like,
where would we be without Mrs Lisinski though I know
(03:13):
it's kind of like the butterfly effect, you know, except
this is the Mrs Linsky effect. Like if I hadn't
had her, where would I be? Would probably be completely different?
Probably not here today to talk about the Battle of
Little Big Horn. Um, but we're going to get into
that now because that's what we're actually here to talk about, right, Yeah,
So first a refresher on American history. Little Big Horn
(03:37):
Battlefield is located in southern Montana. It's about halfway between
the middle of the state and the eastern portion of
the state. The state is huge, in case you didn't
know that. Um, it's close to the Wyoming border and
about three and a half hours from Yellowstone. The closest
like bigger city is Building Spontana, which is about an
hour west of the park, and it serves as a
(03:57):
monument to the Battle of Little Big Horn, which took
as June six in eighteen seventy six, weirdly exactly one
years after just the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Yeah,
that's oddly poetic and a kind of dark way, or
a very dark way, yeah, especially because it illustrates the
ongoing struggles between Native Americans and new settlers, and how
(04:19):
it most certainly did not end right away, like still
it's still going on today. So yeah, it's really sad
um as this battlefield was, and this monument is um.
Actually it's a nice memorial and for the legacy of
the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and Rapaho people's Yeah. Nice might
be subjective though. The battle alone was definitely a violent tragedy,
(04:41):
but over the ensuing years this place was fraught with
even more drama and even more conflict, mostly because for
a long time the battlefield was preserved primarily to commemory
and celebrate General Custer and his American troops, Like excuse me,
a lot of Native American history, including the important fact
that they were being a grestfully forced off their land,
(05:02):
especially with this battle um, has been erased and glossed over, Yeah,
which is nuts. And over the years, starting in eighteen
seventy nine, when the site was first preserved as a U. S.
National cemetery to protect the graves of cavalry troops, a
little big horn took on all these different phases and
monikers like National Cemetery of Custer's Battlefield Reservation in eighteen
(05:22):
six and even more egregious Custer Battlefield National Monument in nine. Yes,
in nineteen seventy six, the American Indian Movement finally put
their foot down and protested the name of the site um,
which they've done this, they were doing this for years
up until that point, but they really got into it,
um as I was being preserved, like it's just it's
(05:42):
not right since it primarily honored Custer and his side
of the battle, UM, which they felt was literally an
act of genocide. Yeah. I know, it's crazy to me,
and it's crazy and sad that it got to this
point where they needed to be like, hey, remember this
wasn't like a one sided this isn't black and um.
And they felt like they were being like fully attacked
(06:06):
and murdered and genocide. So I get it. I don't
remember exactly what the lesson plan entailed for me in
elementary school, so I don't remember like what I initially learned,
but I sure remember it like praising Custer at least
I'm sure it did. Like I remember growing up thinking
he was kind of in the hero role. Yeah, I
(06:26):
mean in in American history, he really was. And you know,
there is a lot of There are a lot of
times where he was on the right side. But great
men can still mess up. Uh. I want to be surprised, though, because,
judging by how confusing this place was for so many years,
it's hard to figure out exactly what happened here, who
(06:47):
deserves to be honored, and who should be taking top billing.
It's not all black and white. Yeah, very gray, very blurry.
I think like a little big horn is as confluted
as it gets, really, but still one important and bottom
line is that General Custer isn't the noble like heroic
Steed I was initially led to believe. I'll give him
this though. His name Custer always does make me think
(07:10):
of custard. And that's a pleasant well aside that I'll take.
I guess that's a good way to find a silver lining.
It's a little weird, but you do you Yeah, you know.
I gotta find lovity wherever I can, especially with a
place like this, and dessert is always a good go
to for me. I always compare things to like suites
and stuff and custard. It literally sounds the custard, so
(07:31):
give me that. So anyway, finally, in nineteen one, the
site was renamed Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument and
formalized by President George H. W. Bush, which I mean
took long enough. Yeah, this was years and years um
after name change after name change, shuffling the park around
to the Secretary of War, to the National Register of
(07:51):
Historic Places, to the National Park Service. I mean, that's
just been shuffled and reshuffled, and so a lot of
the history is still not accurate and what we needed
to be right. I feel like all these different organizations
are basically playing like hot potato with Big Horn Battlefield,
you know, just bouncing it around from one place in
the next, renaming it here, renaming it there. It was
(08:14):
very confusing and very blurry over the years, which maybe
is why all the way back in fifth grade, I
was so confused and unsure what was learning and who
these people were and what these events were. But a
Little Big Horn Battlefield is actually also now on the
National Register of Historic Places, which that fits fine, and
I went through a fit about that. So memorials started
(08:36):
being added by bearing soldiers bodies in the ground exactly
where they were found, until one when they were dug
up and re entered by this new Grand memorial constructed
at the top of Last Stand Hill, and they initially
put stakes on the ground where the bodies were found,
but eventually upgraded to marvel markers, and we saw a
lot of them while we were here, yes we did.
(08:57):
But the thing I like most is how the monument
was finally renamed honor the Native Americans as well. This
included adding an Indian memorial near Last Stand Hill. And
once again, it's about time now, so now fittingly there
are also markers and memorials honor like honoring warriors like
Crazy Horse. Um even added red granite markers to further
(09:18):
highlight them and where they died in combat. Today, you
look out over a Little Big Horn and you just
see this expanse of both ride granite markers and white
marble markers. So, like you said, it's definitely not black
and white at all. I mean, it's technically white marble.
But the events of what happened here in eighteen seventy
six and the following years require research and most importantly,
(09:38):
I think personal experience. When we visited a Little Big Horn,
it was the same time period when we were visiting
Yellowstone over the summer. We were staying near Cody, Wyoming
for the rodeo a few days before, and we had
a rental car. Well, the RV was stationed at the
r V park, So on one day that didn't I
(10:02):
didn't have to work, we decided to make the long
drive up to a Little Big Horn and back. Yeah,
a little ambitious, It was definitely a long drive and
I dropped the whole way by the way, which is
probably a nice change of pace for you. You're not
used to that, right, Yeah, you got to sit by
and relax. It was like two and a half hours
each way, so a lot of drive, a lot more
(10:22):
than I'm used to, which I'm used to zero, so yeah,
and I drive a little bit more in that with
a twenty six r V and a little bit more
weight and speed restrictions behind it. But yeah, we won't
get to cement. I mean for me, it helped that
the speed liam in s Montana or like nine, so
time is literally flying by, literally, but anyway, we're able
(10:45):
to arrive in a Little Big Horn by late morning.
They make the most of the day. Good timing museum,
and it is with most parks. We started in the
visitor center in museum and the little Big Horn had
an excellent museum totally. Yeah, there's just really something about
historic battlefield Parks. I think they have some of the
best most immersive museums we've ever seen. And the same
(11:07):
thing as Eric Gettysburg, same thing is true here. We've
spent a good while just strolling through and reading and
learning because it's all here, like so much history and
so much context. So I just you know, we just
play hooky and fifth grade come here, learn everything in
a day, and it'll stick with you far longer. I promise.
This is definitely the kind of stuff that burns itself
(11:28):
into your brain and your memory. Um. Now, while there's
like a screat museum, there's definitely more and more history
to dive into, and there's more ways to expand and
become more knowing throughout this. That's definitely for sure, So
take it for its initial value of educating you enough
to dig deeper. Um, that's uh. You know. One of
(11:50):
the great things, um, some of the most power stuff
in the museum is all the materials collected from the
battlefield itself, like ammunition, soldiers, equipment, tools, and even horsebone.
So gross. I can't even deal with the horse bones
like I'm the type a person who I can't watch
movies with war battles, and that's primarily because I get
upset about horses. Like when the horses are running a battle,
(12:12):
I'm like, what about no, Like, they didn't choose this.
They don't. Horses don't go to war. They like are
forced to participate in it. But you know, leave the
horses out of it. I don't want to. I don't
see that. Well, then you're not gonna light this fact.
Horses played a huge role in the Battle of a
Little Big One. I hate it. When Lieutenant George As
Godfrey visited Custer Hill two days after the battle, he
(12:33):
noted that there were forty two dead men and thirty
nine dead horses here. That would explain why I saw
a little horse cemetery up by Last Stand Hill when
I was out there walking around, And I was definitely
not emotionally ready for that, and I'm still not emotionally
ready to talk about it. It's hard to see place.
I mean, it's not one that's uh coated with beautiful tails.
(12:56):
And it's important to realize that these animals gave their
lives to it's so nice to see them commemorated as well. Yeah,
I guess that's true when you look at it that way,
Like they gave their lives as well, so it's nice
to see them commemorated, even though stumbling unexpectedly across the
Horse Seminate Cemetery definitely does look like something out of
(13:17):
a Steaphen King novel. It's like past cemetery, but with
like a battlefield twist. But let's get back to the museum.
There's also a huge collection of historic photos, manuscripts, maps,
art and records. UM. This place is perfect to really
dig into that, like the context and to try to
start understanding it for yourself for the first time. UM.
(13:40):
And the information of the Battle of Little Big Horn,
what led to it, and what happened after absolutely, because
evidently you and I were both going in completely clueless.
So thankfully there's this incredible museum to guide us along battlefield.
So the battle took place on the bluffs, ravines and
do just that surround the Little Big Horn River. It's
(14:02):
not a mountainous area. It's mostly rolling hills and meadows
as far as the eye can see. It's really pretty,
very tranquil today, but it was utter chaos in eighteen
seventy six when the Lakota, Sioux, Northern Cheyenne, and Arapaho
tribes came to a head against the seventh Regiment of
the U. S. Cavalry. Yeah, it was a gruesome and
fierce battle. Um of Native Plains tribes pushing back against
(14:23):
Americans westwards expansion. Um and the men who aggressively spearheaded
that movement. Yeah, it all started in eighteen sixty eight
when the government tried to persuade Lakota leaders to sign
the Treaty of Fort Laramie, which would mean ending their
automatic lifestyle and moving to a reservation in South Dakota.
But famous Lakoda leaers like Crazy Horse and Sitting Bill
rejected the eight the treaty as it would mean giving
(14:45):
up their way of life for one, restricting their hunting,
and essentially being beholden to government subsidies. So things weren't
looking good right away, and they only got worse in
eighteen seventy four, when Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer was
sent on a research trip through the Black Hills the
find a fitting military site and document the area's natural resources.
But on the trip, geologists discovered gold, and this triggered
(15:08):
a huge gold rush to minors to the area. So
the government once again was trying to push la Quota
tribes off their land by purchasing the Black Hills from them.
I feel like it always started out gold and greedy
gold rushes like unsurprisingly, yeah, but again the Lakota. The
Lakota tribes said now, okay, fair enough, And since the
government didn't understand that no means no, they couldn't just
(15:31):
acknowledge this and respect it. They only escalated the situation
by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ordering them to move
to a reservation by January one eighty and you can
probably guess that they did not do that. So in
the following months, generals from throughout the region started assembling
troops and migrating towards the Lakota and Chan tribes with
(15:51):
the intent to force them onto a reservation. Uh Custer
was leading the seventh Cavalry, which was a large portion
of the troops yeah a lot. With General Philip Sheridan,
Colonel John Gibbon, and General George Crook, Custer began to
descend on the Little Big Horn region in June, when
all three tribes were gathered for their annual sundance ceremony.
At the time, Sitting Bowl actually had a vision of
(16:13):
soldiers collapsing into their village, which made them feel like
a victory of some sort was on the horizon, Like
he was like prophesizing that something might happen, but they'll
the tribestle emerge victorious now. So Custers set up a
nightcamp nearby on June and sent out scouts to report
back on the location of the tribes. By the morning
of June, customers men were perched by the Wolf Mountains,
(16:37):
only about twelve miles from the Little Big Horn River.
Once he suspected that Indian warriors had discovered them, he
commanded in an immediate attack on the village, which was
estimated to have about eight thousand people. So the first
astall took place along Little Big Horn River, where three
companies commanded by Major Marcus Reno met warriors for the
(16:57):
first time. He wund up withdrawing and fleeing, but warriors
chased them down and really weakened its troops to the
point where they had to scurry up some bluffs on
the other side of the river, and they were stuck
here under fire from warriors until the following morning. Meanwhile,
Custer had led troops north along some bluffs to an
area called Medicine Trail, where some fighting occurred. Once the
(17:19):
warriors had pushed Reno back to the top of the hill,
they begun to move forward towards Custer. Yeah, so at
this point the seventh Cavalry was severely outnumbered in dwin Ling,
and they were starting to realize that like they were
in way over their heads, and they kept being pushed
back further and further into precarious situations like the present
day Last Stand site, where many of them cornered were
cornered and eventually killed because they couldn't successfully escape. And
(17:42):
this is where that giant granted memorial was built in
eight one. Even though the battle was technically a victory
for Lakota and Gyant tribes people's, it only enraged the U.
S Government and made them want to force them onto
reservations even more um Less than one year later, they
had surrendered and given up the Black Hill as well,
and they were not paid for anything for him. Yeah. Basically,
(18:04):
this whole saga was just one epic lose lose in
the most greesome way. You are listening to Park Glandia
from my Heart Radio. Hi, I'm Matt and I'm Brad.
(18:26):
This is part Glandia in today's episode is on Little
Baycorn Battlefield National Monument in Montana. Now, the main man
at the center of this story in this monument, and
the source of a lot of confusion as well, is
General Armstrong Custer. So I think it's important to talk
more about him and as past as well. Oh for sure. Yeah,
he's a complicated and complex figure, like more so than
(18:48):
anyone we've talked about or learned about by far. And
he's not overtly and the wrong, but he's definitely not
in the right either. Yeah. He was born in Ohio
in eight nine and initially wanted to become a teacher
before attending West Point Military Academy. He wound up graduating
the last in his class in eighteen sixty one. They
made up for it by volunteering and proving himself as
(19:10):
a reliable hard worker. And this was during the Civil
War when volunteers and hard workers were needed most, and
he was such a hard worker that he actually got
promoted all the way up to General of Volunteers of
the Michigan cavalry brigade and eventually up to major general
by the end of the war. He became famous as
a leader by always entering battle from the front, like
he was literally the first person to engage with combatants,
(19:32):
which is terrifying and also super brave. He found in
several battles against Confederate forces and rarely ever received any injuries,
which is why he earned the nickname Custer Luck. The
only wound he got was from an artillery shell during
the Battle of Culpepper Courthouse. That's crazy considering he's always
leaving the charge. That's that's pretty impressive and very lucky. Yeah,
(19:55):
So this hard work and loyalty and all his efforts
of the Civil War were all great. It all noble,
you know. That's awesome, And that's why his history is
not black and white by any means. And he certainly
didn't go rogue and attack the Indian village on his
own or anything. He was just following orders like he's
always done. So that's why he's such a complex figure,
I think is you can't take one instance or one
(20:18):
battle from his whole career and just like judge him
based on that, because he did really brave heroic things, sure,
but he also did atrocious things. But then you also
have to weigh the fact that he didn't do them
on his own course. He didn't just charge into Montana
one morning and be like, I'm gonna commit genocide today.
You know. That's why it sounds easy to talk about
(20:40):
the Little Big Horn Battlefield because it's so complicated. You
can kind of see both sides, but ultimately you have
to realize that none of this would have ever happened
if the government didn't aggressively try to force Native Americans
off their land exactly. And while you're at a Little
Big Horn, you can get out and experience it for
yourself too, which is what we love and that's how
we came way learning so much. There aren't really any
(21:02):
hiking trails or like outdoor activities here. It's mostly self
guided walks and stuff like that. Like we did the
Deep Ravine Trail, which is an easy half mile round
trip trail near the visitor center. And this goes down
into the basin by Last Stand Hill, and it's got
a self guided trail map that goes with it, so
you can read about important historical facts along the way
(21:22):
and see all the different memorial markers in the tall
grasses that surround it. Yeah, that was that was pretty amazing,
very cool. Somber, but cool. There's also Custer National Cemetery,
which looks like amNY Arlington kind of where graves are
marked for known and unknown veterans. It's one of fifty
cemeteries in what's called the National Cemetery system across the country,
(21:43):
and one of only fourteen that the National Park Service
manages now. The cemetery was created after those who died
here were already buried on the ground, which is how
most national cemeteries operate. Several bodies have since been moved, though,
including Custer. Yeah, he was reinterred at West Point. Another
cool thing you can do here is drive along the
tour road, which is about four and a half miles
(22:05):
with an accompanying cell phone audio tour option. But I
think you actually I bought a CD at the visitor center. Yeah,
I definitely did. A Rhino Clar had a CD player,
So we're actually put it in there and just pause
it and listen as we drove from stop to stop. Yeah,
I haven't used the CD in a long time. Actually,
I don't. I don't think I've had a CD since
like the last Now that's what I call music Volume
(22:27):
seventy six or whatever. It's been a long time. But
we could like call this audio tour c D. Like now,
that's what I call Little Bighorn. Right. Does that work?
I don't know, yeah, I mean the narration was a
little weird and dull, so maybe the cellphone tour is livelier.
I don't know, yeah, but it got the job done.
It gave us enough like education to just start to
(22:50):
understand the process of how the battle went out and
it was laid out and why it was put together
that way. Since the road in the landscape is prett
plane yeah, literally like their planes, so plane planes. And
then the most recent side of the park is the
Indian Memorial. And like we said about damn time, construction
(23:11):
of the memorial was ordered in ninete and a designer
was selected in n and it was finally finally unveiled
in two thousand three, formally titled the Peace Their Unity
Indian Memorial. It's a beautiful memorial crossed the road from
the Last Stand Hill, designed to honor the Native Americans
who died during combat protecting their land and their culture.
(23:34):
As well as their children. It's important to note that
it wasn't just Custers last stand here either, it was
also the potential last stand for local Indians who have
called this place home for centuries. And the sculpture of
three warriors riding on horseback, which was designed by Oglala
sto artist Colleen cutchel Ak sister Wolf, is perfectly sat
so that it looks like they're riding along the Montana
(23:55):
Prairie in the background. It's really beautiful. The memorial. I
love the memorial. Now this is the hard the memorial,
which is a large circle that has red dirt in
the middle and a stone walkway around it. There are
panels for each tribe who fought in the battle as well,
and the most emotional part is the weeping wall, where
water is consistently flowing down into a pool designed to
(24:16):
represent tears for fallen warriors and soldiers. Yeah, I'm definitely
weeping like thinking about that. It's powerful stuff. And it
gets even better, or by better, I mean more heartbreaking.
But the memorial is constructed so that you can actually
see the Seventh Cavalry Monument from the weeping Wall, signifying
that both warriors and soldiers are welcome and memorial together
in a symbol of unity, like very beautiful, very full circle.
(24:41):
And it's great to see it all come together this way,
especially after such an epic tragedy and then the years
and years and decades of ensuing like drama and like
renaming and disrespecting. It's absolutely I mean, it's just one
of those crazy experiences where you realize what we learned
(25:02):
in school or didn't learn or didn't learn is hopefully
not what they're still learning today. Yeah, I can only hope. Food.
Once we were done a little big horn, we were starving,
so we drove outside the park and across the road
(25:22):
to this place called Custer Battlefield Trading Post, which has
a huge shop filled with Native American goods and clothes,
and there's also a restaurant. Yeah. I mean, they should
probably update the name of the restaurant to reflect the
national monument. But I still loved it. I can blame them, really,
there was so much renaming of this place that they
have to have a whole new business license and business
(25:43):
plan because it keeps on getting renamed. Very confusing. But
our server was wonderful and the restaurant was so warm
and cozy, It really just felt like this huge lodge.
And they had like one of my favorite foods ever.
They had the Indian tacos o k a fried bread
heaped with beans, cheese, tomatoes, lettuce, and they even have
a sweet version with honey for dipping. Yeah. I kind
(26:04):
of wanted to get that, but you know, I just
love the I can't say no to the taco. It's
you can't really eat it like in a traditional taco
like handheld form because it's really layered and it would
get really messy. But it's a great like knife and
fork taco. It's like a savory like fried dough about
perfect with a little cup of coffee. Yeah, yeah, it
really was. Bottom was got cups of coffee. It's great.
(26:26):
But it was a great little place. There's a lot
of um and tourist de esque items in their shops
and even some authentic Native American paintings and sculptures and
things that you can purchase as well, so it was
a good mix of um all of your needs. Yeah,
it really was. It was a fun store to wander
(26:47):
around for a little bit after after lunch. Any tacos. Yeah,
and we definitely decided to leave the RV back because
driving it here would have been really difficult because we
weren't like going through here. We definitely wanted to make
the effort to visit this national battlefield, right. And I
think this is a great example of being mindful of
(27:08):
gas with o r V because that's by far the
biggest expense with our r V, and driving from where
we were staying to here and back in the same
day would have been like five hours round trip. It
would have been actually six six and a half because
the RV doesn't go up. I mean it can, but
we're not driving in at ninety can that would be terrifying. Yeah. Um.
(27:30):
And so basically, you know, once you get into seven hours,
you're talking about at least a hundred and fifty dollars
in fuel versus taking a car five hours round trip.
It's a big difference. So it's like just that day's
rental plus that is still cheaper than getting totally worth
it that yeah, it's with it, So that's something to
(27:50):
factor in and it all worked out great. Also, taking
a car it leaves less anxiety for us because we're
not leaving the RV somewhere and you know, we know
that it's secure hooked up somewhere. So there's a lot
of things like that that just allowed us the freedom
to do different things because like I couldn't imagine doing
that like car tour with the audio book in the
r V, because it would just be a little not fun,
(28:13):
not exactly, Yeah, totally narrow. And our V does not
have a CD player, so we'll be out of luck
with without Little Beauty. Yeah, and so this really just
allowed us to connect with the National Park and not
and leave our baggage or our home at home. Yeah. Literally. Ecology, yes,
(28:36):
and our ecological concept of the day is fire dependent ecosystems. Yes.
On the surface, it would seem that fire and ecosystems
do not mix. Fire can be dangerous to plants and
animals obviously. I mean, that's what's causing hundreds of thousands
of people to evacuate their homes in California right a year.
It's it's horrifying. But the human relationship with fire and
(28:57):
ecosystems is different from an ecosystems relationship with fire. This
world is filled with fire food, after all. Oxygenen is
what fire eats, and there's plenty of it here on Earth. Yeah,
this planet has been burning since it was formed, and
it's even been argued that humans couldn't have evolved the
way that we have without the ability to make fire
work for us fascinating, However, fire has the potential to
(29:21):
destroy what we've built, our homes, communities, and our agricultural land. Yes,
and for at least a portion of human history, we've
tried to keep fire and ecosystems separate, which is of
course impossible because lightning always strikes eventually. But the more
that ecologists study fire, the more they realize that it's
actually acts like a living, breathing organism. In an ecosystem
(29:46):
where fire is allowed to do its thing, there might
be a handful of fires every year, of varying sizes, intensity,
and type. Um A ground fire might breathe through burning
just organic soil, or it might be accompanied by a
surface fire that done grasses, low growing shrubs, and forest litter. Yes,
and then there's crown fires, which might happen after a
lightning storm and burn through the tree canopy. As long
(30:09):
as fire isn't suppressed, it's unlikely that any of these
will be very destructive, at least as long as your
house is not in the way of it. Yeah, I've
literally been there, Like yeahson experience PTSD, I get it.
Some ecosystems actually require fire to function. Um and the
grasslands a Little Bighorn National Monument are one of them. Yeah,
(30:32):
America's grassland prairies are not what they once were. Human
agriculture has removed most of the blue bunch wheat grass,
sandberg blue grass, and june grass that used to dominate
the prairies of the Midwest, but fire has historically been
essential in promoting seed production, keeping woody plants from sneaking
into the ecosystem, and basically keeping grasslands grassy. Although lightning
(30:53):
is the main way the fires are started in the
prairie ecosystem, like the one you see at Little Big Horn,
there's a lot of evidence that Native Americans started fires
to drive game, to promote the production of seeds in
the plants they like to eat, almost like a weapon
in a battle to clear the land for travel. Uh.
These days, the National Parks Service actually ignites and closely
(31:15):
manages fires in the Little Big Horn and other parks
where fire is an important member of a healthy ecosystem,
much like in the Everglades. Yeah, we've seen this in
a handful of parks and read a lot about it.
The the benefits of fire as long as you know
it's the right setting and it's obviously not arson, because yes,
(31:36):
that's never good. But and there's times like a Yellowstone
where you know, in the eighties we had that huge fire,
and that's because we kept on putting out all these
small fires and not allowing it to kind of take
its course. So then this one happened, which was by
human error but still happened. Um Basically, that cigarette but
(31:56):
lit up the forest and it demolished most of yellow
Stones ecosystem. But by allowing it to do what it
needs to do and kind of helping it in those
ways and doing it in small batches, that's really what
they're kind of talking about, this concept of like fire
dependent ecosystems exactly. You are listening to park Landia, a
(32:20):
production of I Heart Radio. Hi, I'm Matt and I'm Brad.
This is park Landian, and today we're talking about Little
Big Horn Battlefield National Monument in Montana, my favorite. But
now that we've sufficiently wept um, it's really time to
(32:41):
wrap up our episode on Little Big Horn and share
with each other a favorite part of this national monument. Yeah,
so per usual, we haven't told it other our answers,
so it's all a surprise what our little favorite moments
were from Little Big Horn. So do you want to
start with what your favorite thing about this park was?
My favorite thing about this park was that going they're reading,
(33:09):
um looking through history at the museums, even looking to
their book collections. UM. I really realized that there's much
more research to do about Native American culture and history.
UM in can like junction with American history in the
aspect of like civil wars and timelines to understand like
(33:32):
what we were actually doing at the same time. So
there's so much more history to dive into. And that's
what for me a Little Big Horn was just that
I still have a lot of learning to do, and
I there's a lot more ways to open up my
eyes to make sure that I can understand what is
American history and not just written from the Americans side.
(33:54):
Beautiful I Mine is kind of similar. I would say
if I'm picking up a specific thing or site, the
piece through unity Indian memorial like easily takes the cake.
I thought, it's just a gorgeous memorial in and of itself,
but also what it symbolizes, and like in general with
the park on the whole, I think it symbolizes how
(34:16):
much I learned and what I took away and how
it really rattled me. I went here and I was like, wait,
like what I learned in fifth grade is not accurate.
Granted I don't remember much, but like it really kind
of shook me up, and ultimately that was a very
positive thing. So it shows how complicated American history is,
especially in relation to Native Americans, and especially during this
(34:37):
time when this battle took place, and it's just not
as cut and dry, not nearly as black and white
as I thought this particular moment in history was, and
very just fascinating. There's a lot to learn here and
it's a very eye opening park, and just that I
think it's my favorite. Also, I do want to shout
(35:01):
out to Mrs Lisiansk from fifth grade. I know you
tried your best, bless your heart. I don't remember what
your curriculum was. I'm sure it was well intentioned, but
it'd be really fun. It's not. It's now kind of
this weird goal of mine. I would love to go
to a little bit or in Battlefield National Monument with
Miss Lisiansk have this like this beautiful like reunion there.
(35:21):
And so if she's somehow miraculously she somehow was listening
and here's this, I would love to do that and
she should. She should like be a guest like we've
talked about her and in our podcast now. So I
really think it's one of those things that we should um.
And that's because there's so much more to learn and
we need to keep on educating ourselves, keep on traveling,
keep on trying to understand this beautiful culture in history
(35:44):
that we live in the United States, because it's very complex,
very deep, many layers, and there's so much out there. Yeah,
I think the number one thing that I would bring
is to open eyes, to open ears. Yeah, in an
open mind and an open mind, and to shut my
(36:04):
mouth because I just want to learn. I want to see,
I want to visualize, because you have to come in
here with an open mind. Yes you do. There's a
lot to take in. So you've gotta make room for
for all this new knowledge that you're learning, because there
is really is a ton here. And I think you
should also bring what like I think your compact car
(36:25):
or rental car, like for us, if you're rving, that's
something to be mindful of, unless you're lucky enough to
be like camping right down the street or something where
kind of negligible. But if you're making any sort of
a haul here, then it could be economically challenging. I'll
tell you one thing to not bring. Do not bring
hiking shoes. Don't come here with like all your national
(36:47):
parks like back camping swag, because you don't need it.
It's definitely a small place that's very manageable, um a
lot of a D A accessible accessibility. I think the
whole heart where anyone else can walk, it's very a
D accessible. Yeah, I think one thing, Yeah, you don't
need like hiking shoes or hiking boots or anything like that.
(37:08):
But I think it would be what not to come
here and like anything fancy by any means. Because I
say that because we're here on like a drizzly day
and I was walking around by the Inny Memorial and
stepped in like a pretty deep thing of mud and
made my shoes. So I mean, I wasn't wearing like
hiking boots, but I wasn't wearing dress shoes or anything
(37:29):
by any means, So bring a rain jacketing jacking just
in case, just in case, check the weather, and then
appropriate weather thing, dress accordingly. All the parks we visited
and talked about, I really feel like a little Big
Horn was just a huge therapeutic lesson for me. It
really was. I have a lot of feelings about it,
as you can tell, and I mean I should. Any
(37:50):
anyone should if they visited this place. And I deserve
these feelings. I think we all do. A little Big
Horn is complicated, it's emotional, it's sad, and it's so
important to American history. And even though it's taken a
long time and there's still farther ways to go, it's
nice to see history moving forward in the right direction
and bringing us all along this journey of learning together.
(38:15):
You've been listening to park Landia, a show about national parks.
Parklandids the production of My Heart Radio, created by Matt Carouac,
Brad Carouac and Christopher hasiotis produced and edited by Mike John's.
Our executive producer is Christopher hasiotis our researcher. It's Jescelyn
shield A special things goes out to Gabrielle Collins, Christal
Waters and the rest of the Parklandia crew and Hey listeners,
(38:37):
If you're enjoying the show, leave us a review on
Apple Podcasts. It helps other people like you find our show.
You can keep up with us on social media as well.
Check out our photos from our travels on Instagram at
Parklandia Pod and join in on the conversation and our
Facebook group Parklandia Rangers. From our podcast my heart Radio,
visit the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
(38:57):
listen to your favorite shows, and as always, the thing
you for listening mm hm
Parklandia News
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Matt Kirouac
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