June 26, 2024 • 32 mins
20 years ago, most of Austin's venues were independently and locally run. But, over time corporations like Live Nation and Oak View Group have entered Austin's venue landscape. Discover how that happened, and hear what that means for our live music ecosystem.
The post Who owns Austin’s venues, how it’s changed, and why it matters. appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm Elizabeth McQueen.
And I'm Myles Bloxham.
And you're listening to Pause play.
A podcast about live music, why
it matters and what comes next.
This season, we've been looking at
how different global and local
changes are impacting our live
music ecosystem here in Austin.
In the last episode, we looked at
(00:21):
ticketing through an Austin lens,
and in this episode, we're going to
explore our venue landscape
and how it's changed over the last
20 years.
Yeah, and I've done a lot of
research that I can't wait to
share with you.
So Miles, I moved to town in 2000
to play music, and when I moved
here, I was struck by how the
music venues in Austin were pretty
(00:42):
much all locally owned.
But something has changed in the
last 24 years, and that's
that. Some of the venues in Austin
are now owned by large national or
multinational corporations.
I had this feeling that like, things
were different, but I wanted to know
just how different.
So I enlisted the help of Julie
Rios, who is a work study student
for CT, and Diego
(01:03):
RTA, who is an intern here at CT.
And we put together this
spreadsheet.
We got a list of music venues from
the Austin Chronicle from 2004,
and then we got the current list of
music venues from the Austin
Chronicle. And we went through and
we looked at who owned the
venues and like thankfully
in Austin, reporters
do a lot of reporting on venues.
(01:25):
We couldn't have done this research
without the work of journalists like
Michael Corcoran and Chad.
We, a techie dead person, get to
Stith Rao Hernandez, Kevin Curtain,
Rachel Rasco and so many
more.
Oh McQueen, I know how you love
a good research project.
So tell me what you found
out.
Well, in 2004,
most of the places that had regular
(01:47):
live music in this town were
locally owned.
In fact, we could only find four
businesses that weren't locally
owned, and none of them were
primarily music venues.
There was fado that was an Irish
pub that had music that was part of
a chain of Irish pubs owned by a
company out of Atlanta called Fado
Pubs Incorporated.
The Driscoll Bar and the Driscoll
Hotel had music in 2004.
(02:08):
I know because I played there, and
in 2004 the Driscoll was owned
by a company called Great American
Life Insurance.
Then there was Roy's, which was a
chain of Hawaiian seafood
restaurants. They had jazz here in
Austin, and it was owned at the time
by the folks that owned Outback
Steakhouse.
And then there's Central Market,
which is a grocery store that
has music.
(02:29):
And I also played there a lot in
2004.
It's owned by H-e-b, which
is technically headquartered in San
Antonio. But like shout out to
H-e-b, we love you and we feel like
you're in Austin company.
Man, that's super interesting.
So was it like mostly Austin
based companies?
Yeah, it was either individual
owners or like there were some local
(02:51):
companies that own multiple venues.
The most well-known being Direct
Events. It was run by a guy named
Tim O'Connor, and they owned
Austin Music Hall, The Backyard, and
La Zona Rosa.
But like I said, that was a locally
owned company.
So what does the Austin venue
landscape look like now in
2024, 20 years
(03:11):
later?
Yeah, there are still
a lot of independently owned venues.
Like a lot like you never
really know how many until you make
a spreadsheet of them all.
I, I still can't believe
you made a spreadsheet with all of
this information, but at the same
time, I can't be surprised about
this.
I mean, I love a good spreadsheet.
What can I say?
(03:31):
And there are so many places to play
music here. Like there's venues,
and then you get into nontraditional
music venues like restaurants and
grocery stores.
One thing we found is that a lot of
breweries have popped up in the last
20 years. Most of them have
a public taproom, and a lot of them
have live music.
And there are so many.
I feel like that's its own story
(03:53):
for sure. Yeah, but you know what?
Interestingly, most of them are
locally owned, but
a lot of the larger rooms in Austin
are now owned by companies that
aren't from Austin.
Scoot in holds 800 people.
IMO's holds around 1600
people. Stubb's holds
like 2500 people.
(04:13):
And they're all owned by C3 Presents
and Live Nation.
And all of these venues
existed in 2004.
Wow. That's crazy.
But were they owned by
different local owners or.
Yeah, yeah they were.
So for people that don't
know Elizabeth,
what is Live Nation or who is
(04:34):
Live Nation?
So Live Nation is a big
multinational corporation
and they own a ton of venues
here in the U.S.
everything from big arenas and
amphitheaters to theaters to
clubs. They own the House of Blues
franchise.
They also own a bunch of festivals,
including ACL Fest, Lollapalooza,
and Rolling Loud, and they're
also in the artist management
(04:55):
business. They own significant
stakes in multiple management
companies like Jay-Z's ROC Nation.
Mick Management, who represents Leon
Bridges, Philly Mac that represents
the Jonas Brothers.
And the numbers that I've read are
that through their subsidiaries,
they manage around like 350
to 500 artists.
They also own Ticketmaster and
(05:16):
front gate tickets.
This is crazy, Elizabeth.
Live nation owns a lot in
the live music space.
Yeah, I mean, they own a lot, and
some people think they own too much.
The Justice Department and 30 states
have filed an antitrust suit against
Live Nation, saying they've created
a monopoly.
So when did they, like, develop
this huge presence in Austin?
(05:37):
So C3 presents was founded in 2007
by three guys named Charles Charles,
a tall Charlie Jones and Charlie
Walker.
Whoa. All of these?
Charlie.
Yeah. This is Charles.
A tall own.
Charles a tall presents.
They did club booking and artist
management.
He also was a part owner of Stubb's
since like, 1996.
We talked to Mel Price in our
(05:58):
episode about ticketing.
She actually created front gate
tickets with Charles as Hall for
stubs, and that's a good episode
if you haven't listened to it
already.
Yeah, it really is.
Charlie Jones was a concert promoter
and a partner in Capital Sports and
Entertainment.
They dreamed up ACL Fest and brought
back Lollapalooza.
Charlie Walker actually worked at
Live Nation as president of their
(06:19):
North American division, and he left
Live Nation to be part of C3.
So over the years, C3 became
like the largest independent concert
promoter in the world.
They put on ACL Fest in Austin
and Lollapalooza in Chicago, and
they were starting to hold
Lollapalooza in Central and South
America, and they promoted like
800 live music shows a
(06:39):
year.
So in 2013, C3
bought emos, which was this iconic
Austin venue that started on Red
River. And then it moved to a couple
different places.
And then in 2014, Live Nation
acquired a controlling interest
in C3 presents.
The festivals and emos were part of
this acquisition.
In 2017, C3 and
(06:59):
Live Nation bought the scoot in
and in 2021, Live Nation
in C3 acquired Stubb's, which
Charles, a tall, was a part owner
in, but which up to that point
wasn't actually owned by C3.
So that's how Live Nation became
an owner of those Austin venues.
Wow, that is a lot.
But what does that look like
(07:20):
practically from a venue standpoint?
Well, we actually talked to Ryan
Garrett, who's worked at Stubb's for
over 24 years.
He's currently their general
manager.
He's also a co-owner of a local
venue called the 13th Floor.
It's on Red River, which is the same
street that Stubb's is on.
And he told us that from his
perspective, there weren't
significant changes after Live
(07:40):
Nation bought Stubb's.
My boss for the last 24 years
has been Charles, a tall who founded
Stubbs at 801 Red River.
He also founded C3 presents,
and that's still true today.
When I need something, you know,
capital expense approval
is required. I reach out to Charles
directly. And it's been
accommodating.
And that was the statement we had to
advance. So Live Nation purchased
(08:01):
Stubbs back in December of 21.
And in advance of that.
I had, a number of sit downs
with Charles. What does it mean?
What does it mean to
staff members that have been here
for two decades, plus 24 years
here?
Private events coordinator, 25
years. Pit boss, 25 years.
Restaurant managers, 18 years.
Plus, we've got a family
(08:22):
environment down there.
And I literally I'm not saying that
to sound cheesy.
I literally mean, we've been
together for half of our life
and there's there's a lot of love
there. We care for each other.
And and.
Stubbs before Live Nation
was extending health care benefits
and for one k opportunities and
those kinds of things which can be
rare in our industry.
And in discussion with Charles, he
(08:43):
he made a promise and he made a
statement that it's going to be the
same. Just talk to me when you need
something. And it's been that way
from December of 21 to today.
There's some operational,
you know, protocols that have been
modified to some degree, yes.
But generally we're the same venue,
we're booking the same shows.
And Live Nation's return on
investment through Stubbs is booking
(09:04):
more shows.
Keep these, you know, local
employees moving forward and
paying bills and doing what they do
for for the last two plus decades.
So it's it's been good for us,
you know, and I'll state around us
and I'm an advocate for it.
I do work for Live Nation,
but I love locally owned and
operated business. I'm a partner in
a locally owned and operated down
(09:25):
the street at 13th floor, and Jake
and Nick and Ned Stuart that played
drums for years and Grand Champion.
Those are my partners in that.
And years and years ago, when
Birdland was closed up and sat there
dormant for six, eight months,
then I looked at each other and
we're like, we gotta do something.
So we bought it and we brought on a
couple of partners open 13th floor
and it's been great.
I look at John to lease him.
(09:45):
He's a brother of mine.
I love that guy, you know, and Seth
across the street at Valhalla and
on and on it goes.
Barb's down the street and chess
club and McNealy and all those cats.
We wouldn't be where we are today
without people like that around us
in those businesses.
And I'm proud to state to when
Stubbs has an outdoor show, 2500
people.
Those people are coming through that
(10:06):
district, crossing the thresholds of
those other venues and bars to
discover new music and to have a
cold beverage. It's good for the the
economy and the community as a
whole. When you get that kind of
crowd coming down, instead of
staying in line, go down the block,
see Seth, if I don't have a cold
beer, then come over at 8:00.
It's good for those businesses, for
us to be there and to partner up.
So you don't work down
(10:27):
there that long and not have those
kinds of close relationships.
And I love that neighborhood.
I love those businesses and proud
to be there.
That sounds good.
But for some, Live Nation's
involvement in our scene isn't
always a great thing.
I remember we spoke to the co-owner
of the Far Out Lounge.
Yeah, we talked to Pedro Carvalho.
He is a co-owner of the Far Out
(10:47):
Lounge, which is a venue that is
really far south.
And he said it can be really hard
for independent venues to compete
with corporately owned venues.
So the only outdoor venue
in Austin that is comparable
to, like a Stubb's of Austin
is the far out as far as size,
but Stubb's is Live Nation.
(11:08):
Scootin is Live Nation having
this space that can fit this
many people in Austin, and I have
the infrastructure to have these
bigger shows.
I can't compete with Live Nation no
matter what I do.
And Laurence Boone, who books the
Far Out Lounge, put it like this.
You know, an independent venue
simply cannot fight against
Live Nation.
(11:28):
If they want to get a show and they
want to outbid us for it, they can
do it all day long.
They can do it. 365 they've
got millions and millions and
millions of dollars.
So the concern is.
Where do we fit in the global
music industry
fighting against a giant
(11:49):
like that? What shows can we get?
What bands can we get?
Before they decide, no, I want that
show. I like that band that's going
to be our band.
So the concern is finding
the events and shows that
will fill up our space all
year long.
While knowing
that there's a company
out there like that who can take all
(12:10):
those shows if they wanted them.
So fighting against
someone that big as an independent
venue's always tough,
and it seems like they've only
gotten stronger since Covid.
They bought more venues, they've got
more power that they
didn't really need to begin with.
So.
(12:32):
We did reach out to C3 presents for
this story, but they couldn't
find somebody to talk to us.
Coming up after the break, we look
at other Austin venues that are
owned, are run by National,
are multinational corporations.
Welcome back to Paws Play, a podcast
(12:53):
about live music, why it matters,
and what comes next.
In this episode, we're looking at
how national and multinational
corporations have entered into
Austin's venue landscape.
So we talked about Scootin
and Stubb's and IMO's.
But are those the only venues
owned by big corporations?
Well, there's also the Moody
Amphitheater at Waterloo Park.
It has a capacity of 5000
(13:15):
people, and technically it's
owned through this partnership
between the City of Austin and the
Waterloo Conservancy.
But it's operated by C3 Presents
and Live Nation.
So is Live Nation the only
big corporation that owns venues in
town?
Actually, no ACL live
at the Moody Theater opened in 2011
and holds about 2700 people
(13:36):
in 2022.
Austin based Stratus Properties sold
it to Ryman Hospitality Properties,
the group that owns the Grand Ole
Opry.
They also own 310 Austin, and that
venue holds about 350 people.
And then there's the Germania
Amphitheater out at circuit of the
Americas. It holds around 14,000
people.
It is owned by circuit of the
(13:56):
Americas LLC, which is local,
but it's booked by Live Nation.
And then there's the Moody Center.
Yep, I've been there.
I saw Justin Bieber, Janet Jackson,
Ludacris, and I'm going to see
Johnny Iko there next
month.
I mean, it is a nice place.
It is.
Yeah. And it replaced the Erwin
Center to the scene of all
(14:17):
of my childhood memories.
Elizabeth, the first time I ever saw
Janet Jackson was actually there.
I think I saw M.C.
hammer there.
Oh my gosh.
Well, the Erwin Center used to be
one of the biggest venues in Austin.
It held almost 17,000
people, and it was owned and
operated by the University of Texas
at Austin. And it was run by a guy
named John Graham for 28 years
(14:38):
until 2017.
And he was like a University of
Texas employee.
That sounds so crazy to
me that there was a UT
employee responsible for booking
not only UC basketball games,
but major concerts and everything
else in between.
That's like a big role.
I mean, yeah, he had a big team
working with him, but yeah, right.
(14:59):
So as you know,
the Erwin Center is no more.
It's been torn down.
And I know we all watched
it be torn down like in stages.
But it's been replaced with
the new Moody Center.
And the Moody Center holds around
15,000 people.
So it's basically the same size as
the Erwin Center.
(15:19):
And it was built through a
partnership between Oak View Group,
Live Nation C3 presents,
the University of Texas at Austin,
and Matthew McConaughey.
Okay, first of all, what Matthew
McConaughey. Elizabeth, please
explain.
I actually can't explain the Matthew
McConaughey part, but
I did do some research into Oak
View Group. I really hadn't heard of
(15:41):
them before.
So Oak View Group has interests
in a bunch of theaters and
convention centers and stadiums and
arenas and fairgrounds.
And one of the founders is Irving
Azoff, who is the legendary manager
of the Eagles and Van Halen.
And he's also the chairman of Full
Stop Management, which he founded
with his son Jeffrey.
Full Stop Management manages acts
(16:02):
like Cardi B and Harry styles.
He was also once the CEO
of Ticketmaster and Oak
View Group owns Pollstar.
I feel like I've totally heard the
name before, but what is Pollstar?
It's an online music publication
about the live music industry.
So it's like all interconnected
or something.
(16:22):
Yeah, I mean, and a lot of the
upper management of the Moody Center
works for Oakview Group,
and the venue is ticketed through
Ticketmaster, and Live Nation
brings a bunch of shows
to Moody Center, though the venue is
not exclusive to Live Nation.
All right, I'm going to be honest
with you here. I have always
wondered about who owns the Moody
(16:42):
Center, but
why should we all really care?
Well, Miles, you're a native Austin
night, and when we've been talking
about this episode, you've always
talked about how growing up, major
acts never came through town,
right?
Yeah. And it was kind of
frustrating.
And maybe not never,
because I saw a few amazing acts
growing up.
But sometimes we had to travel to
(17:03):
see the really good stuff.
Yeah, well, I wanted to confirm what
you told me, so I went back and I
looked at the top ten highest
grossing tours of 2004,
according to Entertainment Weekly.
And of those top ten tours, only
three came through Austin.
Now, I checked in three of the
artists that didn't come through
Austin in 2004
did come through Austin during that
(17:24):
decade, so Shania Twain, Sting,
and Kenny Chesney all played the
Irwin Center sometime in the 2000.
So artists would come through
Austin. But like you said, Miles,
not a lot.
So I wasn't over exaggerating.
I'm proud of myself.
You know, you were not
overexaggerating.
But things have changed over time,
(17:44):
especially with the advent of like,
Austin City Limits Music Festival,
which brought big acts to town.
I mean, it draws like 450,000.
People a year.
But Moody Center, which is
interconnected with Live Nation and
Oak View Group, is bringing these
bigger acts to Austin
all the time now.
Like think Harry styles coming to
Moody Center for five nights in
2022, or Madonna doing two
(18:05):
nights at the Moody Center this
year. And just so
you know, both shows were presented
by Live Nation.
And check this out.
Madonna was the top grossing tour
of 2004, and
that year she didn't even come to
Texas, much less Austin.
Really?
Yeah. But when you look at the
biggest tours of this year Madonna,
Olivia Rodrigo, Bad Bunny, Nicki
(18:27):
Minaj, Mitski, they're all coming
to Austin and they're all playing
the Moody Center.
And that's good news.
If you're an Austin Knight who wants
to see, like, a big, hot mainstream
act.
But in the latest episode where
we talked about out of control
ticket prices, one thing that we
didn't get into, but that you bring
up a bunch miles, is that people
only have so much money.
Yeah, this kind of thing makes me
(18:48):
happy and sad, right?
I'm happy because we're getting all
these mainstream acts, but I'm sad
because I feel like that
can also affect us going
to like, live local shows.
Say, for instance, Kendrick Lamar
comes here.
I spent $300 to see him play.
Then that takes away from maybe
like $3,010 shows that
(19:08):
I could have seen, you know,
hosted by like a local artist or
something like that.
Yeah. And Maggie Lee from Cheer
Up Charlie's a avenue here in
Austin, agreed that the ability
to have access to big national shows
can be detrimental to local venues.
The economy is already kind of
not great. There's a recession
there. Like, if I have this
much money, where do I allocate
(19:29):
it? And yes, if they're going to
a more publicized, larger
national band
playing at a big corporate
owned venue, they're spending all
their money there in one night, and
they aren't putting that back into
the local ecosystem for
like smaller clubs and venues.
I mean, it's crazy
(19:49):
because we like a really popular
place, like we
are, you know, always
nominated for all these awards and
stuff. And it's just really
interesting to see, like
the it's not translating anymore
like it used to in the foot traffic.
So yeah, it is a struggle.
I'm not going to lie.
We don't have like investment
backing or
(20:12):
other partnerships.
It's just Tamara and I.
So like we're constantly trying to
source grants,
but you know, even the city grants,
it takes months and months.
And, yeah,
we try to have programing that is
unique and special that like, is
directly connected
to the community and to to music
community, art community, and,
(20:33):
you know, our queer community.
But yeah, it's it's really hard to
keep dipping from your own,
you know, pool of friends
and clientele and also LGBTQ
community because it's we need that
like support from our allyship
and just folks in the city like a
a wider array of support.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I mean, Miles, people only have
so much money, like you said.
And these tickets can be so
expensive.
Like usher is coming to the Moody
Center in October.
Believe me, Elizabeth, I know my mom
wants tickets and she won't stop
asking me for them.
Well, let her know that floor seats
close to the stage will cost her
over $850 per ticket.
(21:15):
Again for.
Taxes and fees.
I cannot.
But Ryan Garrett, who we heard from
earlier, he's the general manager at
Stubb's and he's also co-owner
of the 13th Floor, says
he's struck by how little people
want to pay to see local bands, even
though there are a lot of pressures
on venues.
We're seeing hikes in insurance,
(21:35):
we're seeing hikes in rent, we're
seeing hikes in utilities, you
know, and you guys see it.
You talked about a $10 cover charge.
We should be charging 15 bucks these
days. We were charging ten bucks ten
years ago 15 years ago.
That price has to go up.
And is somebody who worked the door
when we first pivoted at 711, Red
River, people are balking at five
bucks to come discover a new band.
I'm not paying five bucks.
(21:56):
And they move on down the road.
They go to sixth Street or wherever,
and they'll spend, you know, 12
bucks on a cocktail.
And I'm offering you three local
bands here for five bucks.
Is that going to hurt you?
You know, so, I
would advocate, you know, again,
is is
the little room.
It's hard to survive.
It's hard to do that, you know.
Do I recognize that Stubb's is host
(22:17):
names like James Brown and Iggy Pop
and and Metallica and on and
on. Absolutely.
And we're proud of that. Right.
Those tickets expensive?
Sure they are.
But I hope there's there's room in
this local economy for both to
sustain and survive and as,
as an advocate for a little room.
It's tough.
It's hard out there right now.
In some ways, the fact that we
(22:38):
didn't have a lot of big acts come
through Austin may have been like
one of the many factors that have
led us to having this thriving
local music scene.
We had to create our own fun.
Yeah.
But, you know, our music scene is
growing and evolving.
And as James Moody, who owns
Mohawk, a music venue on Red River,
pointed out, there's a reason
(22:59):
that people might lean into more
corporate involvement in the scene.
One thing that was really
interesting about the time you're
talking about is that Austin was
purposely known for
not entertaining the big artists,
and that's what we loved about the
city.
But there's an economy to
those big artists that are super
(23:19):
attractive to people that are in
the industry.
And frankly, the
the the money becomes
less predictable the smaller you
go.
And so as you get older,
you want predictable economies of
anything that you do.
So the young upstarts that are in
the business, they just wanted, you
(23:39):
know, cool shows and memories and.
And then as you get older in the
industry, you want predictability
and you want to understand margin.
And so there's this push
pull of like.
The hard and soft sides of
the music business.
It is very difficult to make money
and especially for the small artist
and the small venue,
(24:01):
very unpredictable because a draw,
the predictability of draw is
very data.
Oriented because the bigger you get,
the more often you play.
They can run those ticket numbers
and kind of tell you what
draw is going to be.
And then you can organize your
business around understanding and
predicting draw.
(24:22):
You can't do that when there's no
draw history, when you're
discovering bands, exposing
bands, which is the world that I've
been in for a long time.
And James pointed out the
corporations that have interests in
different parts of the music
industry, well, it helps them
mitigate risk.
And this is him talking about Live
Nation.
Their relationship with things like
(24:43):
Ticketmaster and Front Gate tickets
helps, you know, even more.
So it's like the data side of the
business
mixed with the artist side and
management side. And then festival
side helps you get a,
you know, much more firm grip
on what is a pretty risky
business.
And industry.
(25:04):
And so Austin's interesting because
we always operated
all of us in the riskier side in,
in the less predictable side from
Continental Club.
You know, on everyone was
sort of rolling the dice on
their knowledge of the industry and
their understanding of the kids in
the scene.
You know, it's different.
(25:24):
And the different ways that
businesses assess risk can lead
them to have different measures of
success and influence what kind
of artist they book.
You know, a smaller business with a
smaller team, a
nice medium sized show is a success
to them.
This is Graham Williams, an
independent promoter here in Austin
who's been booking shows since the
90s.
(25:45):
But if you're a much larger company
and you're, you know, you're
shooting for 5 to
10,000 person shows, a thousand
person show is a failure.
Even if it's not a failure, it's not
necessarily a big success story for
them. So a lot of the kind of
smaller, up and coming artists get
overlooked by a lot of the bigger
companies and bigger rooms.
The more you have that happening,
the less we're able to develop
artists. I mean, the first Billie
(26:06):
Eilish show here was Mohawk's
Small Room in 150 cap.
Everyone play somewhere in the
beginning, and if no one's putting
on their shows or no one's opening
rooms for those artists and helping
develop them, they're never going to
make it to that next level up and
get to that place where they can
make a sustainable,
you know, life for themselves,
(26:26):
playing music and creating art.
Fans will get a chance to hear
different new genres.
Yeah. So it's super important to me
that, you know, we've got a lot of
independent businesses,
you know, from bottom
all the way up.
Interestingly, Myles, one thing I
learned is that the culture around
music that we've created in Austin,
when that came out of this scene
full of independent venues that took
(26:47):
risks, it's made Austin
really hospitable not just to
small bands and developing bands
here in town, but also to small and
mid-level bands like in general.
Here's Graham again.
I'd say bands at like a club level
and club being anywhere from
a place that has 100 to 200 people
to, you know, a thousand or so
people. I think, venues
(27:09):
that are that size
Austin has like a stronger market
for most of those
artists, not all across
the board. It's, you know,
but rule of thumb would be Austin
compared to Dallas, San Antonio,
Houston. For some reason, we tend to
sell better for artists of that
size.
We put on shows all over the state,
(27:29):
and I'm friends with all the
promoters and club owners all over
the state. They'll all say the same
thing. But like, yeah, most of our
artists sell better in Austin
than they do in Houston and Dallas
and San Antonio.
Culturally in Austin,
music and going to see music is such
a big part of everybody's
lifestyle and life.
I just found that so interesting.
(27:49):
And like Graham's right, music
is a huge part of the culture here
in Austin, and it has been for
such a long time.
And for me, I've had this vision of
what Austin's venue scene is, and
it's rooted in my understanding
from what I got here in 2004.
Right. Making this episode really
helped me understand what it is now,
and we talk all the time about our
(28:10):
live music ecosystem.
And now I think, like we have this
new element that wasn't there
before, which is involvement
from these global companies that
have so much power and money and
have a direct impact on our music
ecosystem.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I worry
about as a native.
Austin, like, this is kind of sad,
like I said earlier, because I feel
(28:31):
like these larger companies are
taking over our unique,
eclectic scene.
And, you know, our local business
owners are struggling as a result
of it. I mean, the positive
part about it is that we get to see
these major acts, and I've always
wanted these major acts to come
through Austin, so it's wonderful
that they're finally doing so.
But what are we sacrificing
(28:52):
to do?
So and I mean, I think we as a
city want to keep our
independent venues thriving
even as we have these big
corporations like in Austin.
And so I wondered how
we can do that. So I reached out to
Cody Cowan. He used to be the
executive director of the Red River
Merchants Association, and now he's
the chief operating officer of
the National Independent Venue
(29:13):
Association.
He's also an Austin Knight who's
been here a long time.
And I asked him, you know, how
can we support our independent
venues with this
new pressure?
And here's what he said.
So the question is, what can
we do as a city to make sure
independent venues get supported
with the growth of multinational
(29:34):
music corporations in town?
There's a lot of things we can do
to fans.
Know that all good things must
come to an end if
we don't support them.
Purchase tickets for local live
performances by
artists merch.
Grab something to eat or drink
at the bar.
(29:55):
Tip your bartenders and servers.
This is how we support our
independent, local live
entertainment to
the city.
Quote live music capital of the
world only works if there is actual
support for that live music.
Support additional funding for local
artists, venues, promoters and
festivals, as well
(30:16):
as for those support organizations
like the Red River Cultural
District.
And please remove barriers for entry
for these grassroots small
businesses like
unnecessary bureaucracy and
any issues that may arise with
the regulatory environment.
Lastly, but not least to venues
and artists.
Lean into the new Austin reality.
(30:39):
We need each other now
more than ever.
We have to build better trust and
stronger relationship with one
another.
We have to quickly professionalized
to compete with our changing
landscape.
We have to meet new audiences where
they are today, not in the past.
And we must continue to find
co-operative new ways to survive.
(31:01):
Know that we are all in this
together and we'll make it
work by working this one.
Those are my thoughts.
Pause play is a production of CT
and CT Studios.
It is reported produce and hosted by
me, Myles Bloxham.
And me, Elizabeth McQueen.
(31:23):
Our executive producer is Matt
Riley.
Sarah Kenney helped write and edit
this episode.
Rene Chavez also helped with
editing and audio production.
Stephanie Federico is our digital
editor. Michael Manasi is our
multimedia editor.
Special thanks to Todd Calahan and
Peter Babb for their technical
support and guidance.
Original music for this episode was
(31:44):
created by the talented Jaron
Marshall.
Other music provided by the talented
Jack Anderson and APM.
I'm Elizabeth McQueen.
And I'm Myles Bloxham.
And you're listening to Pause play.
A podcast about live music, why
it matters and what comes next.
This season, we've been looking at
how different global and local
changes are impacting our live
music ecosystem here in Austin.
In the last episode, we looked at
(00:21):
ticketing through an Austin lens,
and in this episode, we're going to
explore our venue landscape
and how it's changed over the last
20 years.
Yeah, and I've done a lot of
research that I can't wait to
share with you.
So Miles, I moved to town in 2000
to play music, and when I moved
here, I was struck by how the
music venues in Austin were pretty
(00:42):
much all locally owned.
But something has changed in the
last 24 years, and that's
that. Some of the venues in Austin
are now owned by large national or
multinational corporations.
I had this feeling that like, things
were different, but I wanted to know
just how different.
So I enlisted the help of Julie
Rios, who is a work study student
for CT, and Diego
(01:03):
RTA, who is an intern here at CT.
And we put together this
spreadsheet.
We got a list of music venues from
the Austin Chronicle from 2004,
and then we got the current list of
music venues from the Austin
Chronicle. And we went through and
we looked at who owned the
venues and like thankfully
in Austin, reporters
do a lot of reporting on venues.
(01:25):
We couldn't have done this research
without the work of journalists like
Michael Corcoran and Chad.
We, a techie dead person, get to
Stith Rao Hernandez, Kevin Curtain,
Rachel Rasco and so many
more.
Oh McQueen, I know how you love
a good research project.
So tell me what you found
out.
Well, in 2004,
most of the places that had regular
(01:47):
live music in this town were
locally owned.
In fact, we could only find four
businesses that weren't locally
owned, and none of them were
primarily music venues.
There was fado that was an Irish
pub that had music that was part of
a chain of Irish pubs owned by a
company out of Atlanta called Fado
Pubs Incorporated.
The Driscoll Bar and the Driscoll
Hotel had music in 2004.
(02:08):
I know because I played there, and
in 2004 the Driscoll was owned
by a company called Great American
Life Insurance.
Then there was Roy's, which was a
chain of Hawaiian seafood
restaurants. They had jazz here in
Austin, and it was owned at the time
by the folks that owned Outback
Steakhouse.
And then there's Central Market,
which is a grocery store that
has music.
(02:29):
And I also played there a lot in
2004.
It's owned by H-e-b, which
is technically headquartered in San
Antonio. But like shout out to
H-e-b, we love you and we feel like
you're in Austin company.
Man, that's super interesting.
So was it like mostly Austin
based companies?
Yeah, it was either individual
owners or like there were some local
(02:51):
companies that own multiple venues.
The most well-known being Direct
Events. It was run by a guy named
Tim O'Connor, and they owned
Austin Music Hall, The Backyard, and
La Zona Rosa.
But like I said, that was a locally
owned company.
So what does the Austin venue
landscape look like now in
2024, 20 years
(03:11):
later?
Yeah, there are still
a lot of independently owned venues.
Like a lot like you never
really know how many until you make
a spreadsheet of them all.
I, I still can't believe
you made a spreadsheet with all of
this information, but at the same
time, I can't be surprised about
this.
I mean, I love a good spreadsheet.
What can I say?
(03:31):
And there are so many places to play
music here. Like there's venues,
and then you get into nontraditional
music venues like restaurants and
grocery stores.
One thing we found is that a lot of
breweries have popped up in the last
20 years. Most of them have
a public taproom, and a lot of them
have live music.
And there are so many.
I feel like that's its own story
(03:53):
for sure. Yeah, but you know what?
Interestingly, most of them are
locally owned, but
a lot of the larger rooms in Austin
are now owned by companies that
aren't from Austin.
Scoot in holds 800 people.
IMO's holds around 1600
people. Stubb's holds
like 2500 people.
(04:13):
And they're all owned by C3 Presents
and Live Nation.
And all of these venues
existed in 2004.
Wow. That's crazy.
But were they owned by
different local owners or.
Yeah, yeah they were.
So for people that don't
know Elizabeth,
what is Live Nation or who is
(04:34):
Live Nation?
So Live Nation is a big
multinational corporation
and they own a ton of venues
here in the U.S.
everything from big arenas and
amphitheaters to theaters to
clubs. They own the House of Blues
franchise.
They also own a bunch of festivals,
including ACL Fest, Lollapalooza,
and Rolling Loud, and they're
also in the artist management
(04:55):
business. They own significant
stakes in multiple management
companies like Jay-Z's ROC Nation.
Mick Management, who represents Leon
Bridges, Philly Mac that represents
the Jonas Brothers.
And the numbers that I've read are
that through their subsidiaries,
they manage around like 350
to 500 artists.
They also own Ticketmaster and
(05:16):
front gate tickets.
This is crazy, Elizabeth.
Live nation owns a lot in
the live music space.
Yeah, I mean, they own a lot, and
some people think they own too much.
The Justice Department and 30 states
have filed an antitrust suit against
Live Nation, saying they've created
a monopoly.
So when did they, like, develop
this huge presence in Austin?
(05:37):
So C3 presents was founded in 2007
by three guys named Charles Charles,
a tall Charlie Jones and Charlie
Walker.
Whoa. All of these?
Charlie.
Yeah. This is Charles.
A tall own.
Charles a tall presents.
They did club booking and artist
management.
He also was a part owner of Stubb's
since like, 1996.
We talked to Mel Price in our
(05:58):
episode about ticketing.
She actually created front gate
tickets with Charles as Hall for
stubs, and that's a good episode
if you haven't listened to it
already.
Yeah, it really is.
Charlie Jones was a concert promoter
and a partner in Capital Sports and
Entertainment.
They dreamed up ACL Fest and brought
back Lollapalooza.
Charlie Walker actually worked at
Live Nation as president of their
(06:19):
North American division, and he left
Live Nation to be part of C3.
So over the years, C3 became
like the largest independent concert
promoter in the world.
They put on ACL Fest in Austin
and Lollapalooza in Chicago, and
they were starting to hold
Lollapalooza in Central and South
America, and they promoted like
800 live music shows a
(06:39):
year.
So in 2013, C3
bought emos, which was this iconic
Austin venue that started on Red
River. And then it moved to a couple
different places.
And then in 2014, Live Nation
acquired a controlling interest
in C3 presents.
The festivals and emos were part of
this acquisition.
In 2017, C3 and
(06:59):
Live Nation bought the scoot in
and in 2021, Live Nation
in C3 acquired Stubb's, which
Charles, a tall, was a part owner
in, but which up to that point
wasn't actually owned by C3.
So that's how Live Nation became
an owner of those Austin venues.
Wow, that is a lot.
But what does that look like
(07:20):
practically from a venue standpoint?
Well, we actually talked to Ryan
Garrett, who's worked at Stubb's for
over 24 years.
He's currently their general
manager.
He's also a co-owner of a local
venue called the 13th Floor.
It's on Red River, which is the same
street that Stubb's is on.
And he told us that from his
perspective, there weren't
significant changes after Live
(07:40):
Nation bought Stubb's.
My boss for the last 24 years
has been Charles, a tall who founded
Stubbs at 801 Red River.
He also founded C3 presents,
and that's still true today.
When I need something, you know,
capital expense approval
is required. I reach out to Charles
directly. And it's been
accommodating.
And that was the statement we had to
advance. So Live Nation purchased
(08:01):
Stubbs back in December of 21.
And in advance of that.
I had, a number of sit downs
with Charles. What does it mean?
What does it mean to
staff members that have been here
for two decades, plus 24 years
here?
Private events coordinator, 25
years. Pit boss, 25 years.
Restaurant managers, 18 years.
Plus, we've got a family
(08:22):
environment down there.
And I literally I'm not saying that
to sound cheesy.
I literally mean, we've been
together for half of our life
and there's there's a lot of love
there. We care for each other.
And and.
Stubbs before Live Nation
was extending health care benefits
and for one k opportunities and
those kinds of things which can be
rare in our industry.
And in discussion with Charles, he
(08:43):
he made a promise and he made a
statement that it's going to be the
same. Just talk to me when you need
something. And it's been that way
from December of 21 to today.
There's some operational,
you know, protocols that have been
modified to some degree, yes.
But generally we're the same venue,
we're booking the same shows.
And Live Nation's return on
investment through Stubbs is booking
(09:04):
more shows.
Keep these, you know, local
employees moving forward and
paying bills and doing what they do
for for the last two plus decades.
So it's it's been good for us,
you know, and I'll state around us
and I'm an advocate for it.
I do work for Live Nation,
but I love locally owned and
operated business. I'm a partner in
a locally owned and operated down
(09:25):
the street at 13th floor, and Jake
and Nick and Ned Stuart that played
drums for years and Grand Champion.
Those are my partners in that.
And years and years ago, when
Birdland was closed up and sat there
dormant for six, eight months,
then I looked at each other and
we're like, we gotta do something.
So we bought it and we brought on a
couple of partners open 13th floor
and it's been great.
I look at John to lease him.
(09:45):
He's a brother of mine.
I love that guy, you know, and Seth
across the street at Valhalla and
on and on it goes.
Barb's down the street and chess
club and McNealy and all those cats.
We wouldn't be where we are today
without people like that around us
in those businesses.
And I'm proud to state to when
Stubbs has an outdoor show, 2500
people.
Those people are coming through that
(10:06):
district, crossing the thresholds of
those other venues and bars to
discover new music and to have a
cold beverage. It's good for the the
economy and the community as a
whole. When you get that kind of
crowd coming down, instead of
staying in line, go down the block,
see Seth, if I don't have a cold
beer, then come over at 8:00.
It's good for those businesses, for
us to be there and to partner up.
So you don't work down
(10:27):
there that long and not have those
kinds of close relationships.
And I love that neighborhood.
I love those businesses and proud
to be there.
That sounds good.
But for some, Live Nation's
involvement in our scene isn't
always a great thing.
I remember we spoke to the co-owner
of the Far Out Lounge.
Yeah, we talked to Pedro Carvalho.
He is a co-owner of the Far Out
(10:47):
Lounge, which is a venue that is
really far south.
And he said it can be really hard
for independent venues to compete
with corporately owned venues.
So the only outdoor venue
in Austin that is comparable
to, like a Stubb's of Austin
is the far out as far as size,
but Stubb's is Live Nation.
(11:08):
Scootin is Live Nation having
this space that can fit this
many people in Austin, and I have
the infrastructure to have these
bigger shows.
I can't compete with Live Nation no
matter what I do.
And Laurence Boone, who books the
Far Out Lounge, put it like this.
You know, an independent venue
simply cannot fight against
Live Nation.
(11:28):
If they want to get a show and they
want to outbid us for it, they can
do it all day long.
They can do it. 365 they've
got millions and millions and
millions of dollars.
So the concern is.
Where do we fit in the global
music industry
fighting against a giant
(11:49):
like that? What shows can we get?
What bands can we get?
Before they decide, no, I want that
show. I like that band that's going
to be our band.
So the concern is finding
the events and shows that
will fill up our space all
year long.
While knowing
that there's a company
out there like that who can take all
(12:10):
those shows if they wanted them.
So fighting against
someone that big as an independent
venue's always tough,
and it seems like they've only
gotten stronger since Covid.
They bought more venues, they've got
more power that they
didn't really need to begin with.
So.
(12:32):
We did reach out to C3 presents for
this story, but they couldn't
find somebody to talk to us.
Coming up after the break, we look
at other Austin venues that are
owned, are run by National,
are multinational corporations.
Welcome back to Paws Play, a podcast
(12:53):
about live music, why it matters,
and what comes next.
In this episode, we're looking at
how national and multinational
corporations have entered into
Austin's venue landscape.
So we talked about Scootin
and Stubb's and IMO's.
But are those the only venues
owned by big corporations?
Well, there's also the Moody
Amphitheater at Waterloo Park.
It has a capacity of 5000
(13:15):
people, and technically it's
owned through this partnership
between the City of Austin and the
Waterloo Conservancy.
But it's operated by C3 Presents
and Live Nation.
So is Live Nation the only
big corporation that owns venues in
town?
Actually, no ACL live
at the Moody Theater opened in 2011
and holds about 2700 people
(13:36):
in 2022.
Austin based Stratus Properties sold
it to Ryman Hospitality Properties,
the group that owns the Grand Ole
Opry.
They also own 310 Austin, and that
venue holds about 350 people.
And then there's the Germania
Amphitheater out at circuit of the
Americas. It holds around 14,000
people.
It is owned by circuit of the
(13:56):
Americas LLC, which is local,
but it's booked by Live Nation.
And then there's the Moody Center.
Yep, I've been there.
I saw Justin Bieber, Janet Jackson,
Ludacris, and I'm going to see
Johnny Iko there next
month.
I mean, it is a nice place.
It is.
Yeah. And it replaced the Erwin
Center to the scene of all
(14:17):
of my childhood memories.
Elizabeth, the first time I ever saw
Janet Jackson was actually there.
I think I saw M.C.
hammer there.
Oh my gosh.
Well, the Erwin Center used to be
one of the biggest venues in Austin.
It held almost 17,000
people, and it was owned and
operated by the University of Texas
at Austin. And it was run by a guy
named John Graham for 28 years
(14:38):
until 2017.
And he was like a University of
Texas employee.
That sounds so crazy to
me that there was a UT
employee responsible for booking
not only UC basketball games,
but major concerts and everything
else in between.
That's like a big role.
I mean, yeah, he had a big team
working with him, but yeah, right.
(14:59):
So as you know,
the Erwin Center is no more.
It's been torn down.
And I know we all watched
it be torn down like in stages.
But it's been replaced with
the new Moody Center.
And the Moody Center holds around
15,000 people.
So it's basically the same size as
the Erwin Center.
(15:19):
And it was built through a
partnership between Oak View Group,
Live Nation C3 presents,
the University of Texas at Austin,
and Matthew McConaughey.
Okay, first of all, what Matthew
McConaughey. Elizabeth, please
explain.
I actually can't explain the Matthew
McConaughey part, but
I did do some research into Oak
View Group. I really hadn't heard of
(15:41):
them before.
So Oak View Group has interests
in a bunch of theaters and
convention centers and stadiums and
arenas and fairgrounds.
And one of the founders is Irving
Azoff, who is the legendary manager
of the Eagles and Van Halen.
And he's also the chairman of Full
Stop Management, which he founded
with his son Jeffrey.
Full Stop Management manages acts
(16:02):
like Cardi B and Harry styles.
He was also once the CEO
of Ticketmaster and Oak
View Group owns Pollstar.
I feel like I've totally heard the
name before, but what is Pollstar?
It's an online music publication
about the live music industry.
So it's like all interconnected
or something.
(16:22):
Yeah, I mean, and a lot of the
upper management of the Moody Center
works for Oakview Group,
and the venue is ticketed through
Ticketmaster, and Live Nation
brings a bunch of shows
to Moody Center, though the venue is
not exclusive to Live Nation.
All right, I'm going to be honest
with you here. I have always
wondered about who owns the Moody
(16:42):
Center, but
why should we all really care?
Well, Miles, you're a native Austin
night, and when we've been talking
about this episode, you've always
talked about how growing up, major
acts never came through town,
right?
Yeah. And it was kind of
frustrating.
And maybe not never,
because I saw a few amazing acts
growing up.
But sometimes we had to travel to
(17:03):
see the really good stuff.
Yeah, well, I wanted to confirm what
you told me, so I went back and I
looked at the top ten highest
grossing tours of 2004,
according to Entertainment Weekly.
And of those top ten tours, only
three came through Austin.
Now, I checked in three of the
artists that didn't come through
Austin in 2004
did come through Austin during that
(17:24):
decade, so Shania Twain, Sting,
and Kenny Chesney all played the
Irwin Center sometime in the 2000.
So artists would come through
Austin. But like you said, Miles,
not a lot.
So I wasn't over exaggerating.
I'm proud of myself.
You know, you were not
overexaggerating.
But things have changed over time,
(17:44):
especially with the advent of like,
Austin City Limits Music Festival,
which brought big acts to town.
I mean, it draws like 450,000.
People a year.
But Moody Center, which is
interconnected with Live Nation and
Oak View Group, is bringing these
bigger acts to Austin
all the time now.
Like think Harry styles coming to
Moody Center for five nights in
2022, or Madonna doing two
(18:05):
nights at the Moody Center this
year. And just so
you know, both shows were presented
by Live Nation.
And check this out.
Madonna was the top grossing tour
of 2004, and
that year she didn't even come to
Texas, much less Austin.
Really?
Yeah. But when you look at the
biggest tours of this year Madonna,
Olivia Rodrigo, Bad Bunny, Nicki
(18:27):
Minaj, Mitski, they're all coming
to Austin and they're all playing
the Moody Center.
And that's good news.
If you're an Austin Knight who wants
to see, like, a big, hot mainstream
act.
But in the latest episode where
we talked about out of control
ticket prices, one thing that we
didn't get into, but that you bring
up a bunch miles, is that people
only have so much money.
Yeah, this kind of thing makes me
(18:48):
happy and sad, right?
I'm happy because we're getting all
these mainstream acts, but I'm sad
because I feel like that
can also affect us going
to like, live local shows.
Say, for instance, Kendrick Lamar
comes here.
I spent $300 to see him play.
Then that takes away from maybe
like $3,010 shows that
(19:08):
I could have seen, you know,
hosted by like a local artist or
something like that.
Yeah. And Maggie Lee from Cheer
Up Charlie's a avenue here in
Austin, agreed that the ability
to have access to big national shows
can be detrimental to local venues.
The economy is already kind of
not great. There's a recession
there. Like, if I have this
much money, where do I allocate
(19:29):
it? And yes, if they're going to
a more publicized, larger
national band
playing at a big corporate
owned venue, they're spending all
their money there in one night, and
they aren't putting that back into
the local ecosystem for
like smaller clubs and venues.
I mean, it's crazy
(19:49):
because we like a really popular
place, like we
are, you know, always
nominated for all these awards and
stuff. And it's just really
interesting to see, like
the it's not translating anymore
like it used to in the foot traffic.
So yeah, it is a struggle.
I'm not going to lie.
We don't have like investment
backing or
(20:12):
other partnerships.
It's just Tamara and I.
So like we're constantly trying to
source grants,
but you know, even the city grants,
it takes months and months.
And, yeah,
we try to have programing that is
unique and special that like, is
directly connected
to the community and to to music
community, art community, and,
(20:33):
you know, our queer community.
But yeah, it's it's really hard to
keep dipping from your own,
you know, pool of friends
and clientele and also LGBTQ
community because it's we need that
like support from our allyship
and just folks in the city like a
a wider array of support.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I mean, Miles, people only have
so much money, like you said.
And these tickets can be so
expensive.
Like usher is coming to the Moody
Center in October.
Believe me, Elizabeth, I know my mom
wants tickets and she won't stop
asking me for them.
Well, let her know that floor seats
close to the stage will cost her
over $850 per ticket.
(21:15):
Again for.
Taxes and fees.
I cannot.
But Ryan Garrett, who we heard from
earlier, he's the general manager at
Stubb's and he's also co-owner
of the 13th Floor, says
he's struck by how little people
want to pay to see local bands, even
though there are a lot of pressures
on venues.
We're seeing hikes in insurance,
(21:35):
we're seeing hikes in rent, we're
seeing hikes in utilities, you
know, and you guys see it.
You talked about a $10 cover charge.
We should be charging 15 bucks these
days. We were charging ten bucks ten
years ago 15 years ago.
That price has to go up.
And is somebody who worked the door
when we first pivoted at 711, Red
River, people are balking at five
bucks to come discover a new band.
I'm not paying five bucks.
(21:56):
And they move on down the road.
They go to sixth Street or wherever,
and they'll spend, you know, 12
bucks on a cocktail.
And I'm offering you three local
bands here for five bucks.
Is that going to hurt you?
You know, so, I
would advocate, you know, again,
is is
the little room.
It's hard to survive.
It's hard to do that, you know.
Do I recognize that Stubb's is host
(22:17):
names like James Brown and Iggy Pop
and and Metallica and on and
on. Absolutely.
And we're proud of that. Right.
Those tickets expensive?
Sure they are.
But I hope there's there's room in
this local economy for both to
sustain and survive and as,
as an advocate for a little room.
It's tough.
It's hard out there right now.
In some ways, the fact that we
(22:38):
didn't have a lot of big acts come
through Austin may have been like
one of the many factors that have
led us to having this thriving
local music scene.
We had to create our own fun.
Yeah.
But, you know, our music scene is
growing and evolving.
And as James Moody, who owns
Mohawk, a music venue on Red River,
pointed out, there's a reason
(22:59):
that people might lean into more
corporate involvement in the scene.
One thing that was really
interesting about the time you're
talking about is that Austin was
purposely known for
not entertaining the big artists,
and that's what we loved about the
city.
But there's an economy to
those big artists that are super
(23:19):
attractive to people that are in
the industry.
And frankly, the
the the money becomes
less predictable the smaller you
go.
And so as you get older,
you want predictable economies of
anything that you do.
So the young upstarts that are in
the business, they just wanted, you
(23:39):
know, cool shows and memories and.
And then as you get older in the
industry, you want predictability
and you want to understand margin.
And so there's this push
pull of like.
The hard and soft sides of
the music business.
It is very difficult to make money
and especially for the small artist
and the small venue,
(24:01):
very unpredictable because a draw,
the predictability of draw is
very data.
Oriented because the bigger you get,
the more often you play.
They can run those ticket numbers
and kind of tell you what
draw is going to be.
And then you can organize your
business around understanding and
predicting draw.
(24:22):
You can't do that when there's no
draw history, when you're
discovering bands, exposing
bands, which is the world that I've
been in for a long time.
And James pointed out the
corporations that have interests in
different parts of the music
industry, well, it helps them
mitigate risk.
And this is him talking about Live
Nation.
Their relationship with things like
(24:43):
Ticketmaster and Front Gate tickets
helps, you know, even more.
So it's like the data side of the
business
mixed with the artist side and
management side. And then festival
side helps you get a,
you know, much more firm grip
on what is a pretty risky
business.
And industry.
(25:04):
And so Austin's interesting because
we always operated
all of us in the riskier side in,
in the less predictable side from
Continental Club.
You know, on everyone was
sort of rolling the dice on
their knowledge of the industry and
their understanding of the kids in
the scene.
You know, it's different.
(25:24):
And the different ways that
businesses assess risk can lead
them to have different measures of
success and influence what kind
of artist they book.
You know, a smaller business with a
smaller team, a
nice medium sized show is a success
to them.
This is Graham Williams, an
independent promoter here in Austin
who's been booking shows since the
90s.
(25:45):
But if you're a much larger company
and you're, you know, you're
shooting for 5 to
10,000 person shows, a thousand
person show is a failure.
Even if it's not a failure, it's not
necessarily a big success story for
them. So a lot of the kind of
smaller, up and coming artists get
overlooked by a lot of the bigger
companies and bigger rooms.
The more you have that happening,
the less we're able to develop
artists. I mean, the first Billie
(26:06):
Eilish show here was Mohawk's
Small Room in 150 cap.
Everyone play somewhere in the
beginning, and if no one's putting
on their shows or no one's opening
rooms for those artists and helping
develop them, they're never going to
make it to that next level up and
get to that place where they can
make a sustainable,
you know, life for themselves,
(26:26):
playing music and creating art.
Fans will get a chance to hear
different new genres.
Yeah. So it's super important to me
that, you know, we've got a lot of
independent businesses,
you know, from bottom
all the way up.
Interestingly, Myles, one thing I
learned is that the culture around
music that we've created in Austin,
when that came out of this scene
full of independent venues that took
(26:47):
risks, it's made Austin
really hospitable not just to
small bands and developing bands
here in town, but also to small and
mid-level bands like in general.
Here's Graham again.
I'd say bands at like a club level
and club being anywhere from
a place that has 100 to 200 people
to, you know, a thousand or so
people. I think, venues
(27:09):
that are that size
Austin has like a stronger market
for most of those
artists, not all across
the board. It's, you know,
but rule of thumb would be Austin
compared to Dallas, San Antonio,
Houston. For some reason, we tend to
sell better for artists of that
size.
We put on shows all over the state,
(27:29):
and I'm friends with all the
promoters and club owners all over
the state. They'll all say the same
thing. But like, yeah, most of our
artists sell better in Austin
than they do in Houston and Dallas
and San Antonio.
Culturally in Austin,
music and going to see music is such
a big part of everybody's
lifestyle and life.
I just found that so interesting.
(27:49):
And like Graham's right, music
is a huge part of the culture here
in Austin, and it has been for
such a long time.
And for me, I've had this vision of
what Austin's venue scene is, and
it's rooted in my understanding
from what I got here in 2004.
Right. Making this episode really
helped me understand what it is now,
and we talk all the time about our
(28:10):
live music ecosystem.
And now I think, like we have this
new element that wasn't there
before, which is involvement
from these global companies that
have so much power and money and
have a direct impact on our music
ecosystem.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I worry
about as a native.
Austin, like, this is kind of sad,
like I said earlier, because I feel
(28:31):
like these larger companies are
taking over our unique,
eclectic scene.
And, you know, our local business
owners are struggling as a result
of it. I mean, the positive
part about it is that we get to see
these major acts, and I've always
wanted these major acts to come
through Austin, so it's wonderful
that they're finally doing so.
But what are we sacrificing
(28:52):
to do?
So and I mean, I think we as a
city want to keep our
independent venues thriving
even as we have these big
corporations like in Austin.
And so I wondered how
we can do that. So I reached out to
Cody Cowan. He used to be the
executive director of the Red River
Merchants Association, and now he's
the chief operating officer of
the National Independent Venue
(29:13):
Association.
He's also an Austin Knight who's
been here a long time.
And I asked him, you know, how
can we support our independent
venues with this
new pressure?
And here's what he said.
So the question is, what can
we do as a city to make sure
independent venues get supported
with the growth of multinational
(29:34):
music corporations in town?
There's a lot of things we can do
to fans.
Know that all good things must
come to an end if
we don't support them.
Purchase tickets for local live
performances by
artists merch.
Grab something to eat or drink
at the bar.
(29:55):
Tip your bartenders and servers.
This is how we support our
independent, local live
entertainment to
the city.
Quote live music capital of the
world only works if there is actual
support for that live music.
Support additional funding for local
artists, venues, promoters and
festivals, as well
(30:16):
as for those support organizations
like the Red River Cultural
District.
And please remove barriers for entry
for these grassroots small
businesses like
unnecessary bureaucracy and
any issues that may arise with
the regulatory environment.
Lastly, but not least to venues
and artists.
Lean into the new Austin reality.
(30:39):
We need each other now
more than ever.
We have to build better trust and
stronger relationship with one
another.
We have to quickly professionalized
to compete with our changing
landscape.
We have to meet new audiences where
they are today, not in the past.
And we must continue to find
co-operative new ways to survive.
(31:01):
Know that we are all in this
together and we'll make it
work by working this one.
Those are my thoughts.
Pause play is a production of CT
and CT Studios.
It is reported produce and hosted by
me, Myles Bloxham.
And me, Elizabeth McQueen.
(31:23):
Our executive producer is Matt
Riley.
Sarah Kenney helped write and edit
this episode.
Rene Chavez also helped with
editing and audio production.
Stephanie Federico is our digital
editor. Michael Manasi is our
multimedia editor.
Special thanks to Todd Calahan and
Peter Babb for their technical
support and guidance.
Original music for this episode was
(31:44):
created by the talented Jaron
Marshall.
Other music provided by the talented
Jack Anderson and APM.
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