July 20, 2025 • 23 mins
Bridging Generations: A Conversation with Author Julie Halpert
https://www.garrettsspace.org
https://juliehalpert.com
Join Peaceful Life Radio as hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome award-winning freelance journalist Julie Halpert. Julie shares her journey, from the moment she was inspired to co-write 'Making Up With Mom' to her various roles as a mother and journalist. Explore the often complex relationships between mothers and daughters, generational shifts, and how these dynamics shape our lives. Julie also discusses her non-profit, Garrett's Space, which aims to support young adults facing mental health challenges. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on generational differences, parenting, and mental health.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Background
02:06 Julie Halpert's Inspiration for Writing
03:43 Mother-Daughter Relationship Dynamics
07:48 Generational Shifts and Parenting
12:07 Julie's Personal Experiences and Advice
18:35 Garrett's Space: A Mission of Healing
20:15 Conclusion and Contact Information
Visit the Peaceful Life Radio website for more information. Peaceful Life Productions LLP produces this podcast, which helps nonprofits and small businesses share their stories and expertise through accessible and cost-effective podcasts and websites. For more information, please contact us at info@peacefullifeproductions.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie Halpert (00:00):
When I started writting this book, which was a
(00:01):
while ago, I was a young motherand very overwhelmed trying to
do everything.
There was a pivotal moment wheremy mother had stayed over and
was watching me run around likea crazy person trying to satisfy
my three kids, get them out thedoor, get the baby dressed, and
start my workday.
I could feel her silent judgmentof what was going on that, I was
(00:23):
somehow was falling short.
And I really felt like thereneeded to be a book that allowed
the two generations tocommunicate with each other.
David Lowry (00:31):
That was Julie Halpert, an award-winning
free-lance journalist who's withus today on Peaceful Life Radio.
Hello everyone, I'm David Lowry.
Welcome to the program, and withme today is my good friend Don
Drew.
Don, how are you?
Don Drew (00:45):
I'm doing great.
David, how are you doing?
David Lowry (00:47):
Listen, I'm rooting for the Thunder and I don't know
when this program's going toair, but hopefully if my prayers
are answered, the Thunder willbe the new champions.
Don Drew (00:57):
We will see.
David Lowry (00:58):
Either that or I'll be crying for the next year or
so.
But Don, tell us about our guesttoday, Julie Halpert.
Don Drew (01:04):
Absolutely.
David Julie Halpert is anaward-winning freelance
journalist with more than threedecades of experience writing
for many national publications,including The New York Times,
the Wall Street Journal, theAtlantic, and AARP.
She writes the Second ActsStories in the Wall Street
Journal about those who haveswitched to new types of careers
and passions late in life.
(01:24):
She is also the co-author ofMaking Up With Mom, which
focuses on generationaldifferences between women and
their mothers and how to resolvethem.
She has focused extensively onissues of aging, writing about
the many ways that boomers areredefining retirement and
reinventing themselves duringthis period of life.
And today we're fortunate tohave her on Peaceful Life Radio.
(01:45):
Her book is subtitled, WhyMothers and daughters disagree
About Kids Careers and Casseroleand What to do about it and
explores the often complex andemotionally charged
relationships between adultdaughters and their mothers.
Julie Halpert, welcome toPeaceful Life Radio.
Julie Halpert (02:00):
Thanks so much for having me.
Don Drew (02:01):
Julie, you wrote your book back in 2008, and we'll get
around to what you've learnedsince then.
But what led you to write MakingUp With Mom?
Was there a specific moment orexperience that made you realize
the book needed to exist?
Julie Halpert (02:13):
Well, the main thing when I started writting
this book, which was a whileago, and by the way, I co-wrote
this with Deborah Carr, who's, asociologist.
But I was living it because Iwas a young mother and very
overwhelmed trying to doeverything.
And there was a pivotal momentwhere my mother had stayed over
and was watching me run aroundlike a crazy person trying to
satisfy my three kids, get themout the door, get the baby
(02:36):
dressed, and start my workday.
And I could feel her silentjudgment of what was going on,
that I somehow was fallingshort.
And I really felt like thereneeded to be a book that allowed
the two generations tocommunicate with each other.
These generations now it'sdifferent, I think probably with
the current generation ofmothers and their mothers.
But for my generation, which isthe boomer generation, we were
(02:59):
living very different lives andraising our kids in many ways in
a very different way than ourparents raised us.
There was often a lack ofunderstanding, a lack of
empathy, that led to tensionsbetween mothers and daughter.
I thought it would be amazing tohave a book where a lot of women
and their mothers could sharetheir stories and then we could
have therapist and otherprofessionals weigh in on how
(03:20):
they could bridge that gap.
And so we interviewed 50mother-daughter pairs, both
mothers and daughters, andsometimes there was revelations
in those conversations when wedid them with the mothers and
daughters together.
And then we had all these realgreat takeaways, which I still
often use in my own life.
So it was a very practical bookand because of Debbie's
sociology background, sheprovided a great historical
(03:41):
perspective of the role of womenthroughout time.
David Lowry (03:43):
Julie, this title hints at tension and hope.
So why do you think themother-daughter relationship is
so often challenging and yet soimportant?
Julie Halpert (03:54):
I think it's because mothers and daughters
really need each other.
I.
That daughters really valuetheir mother's approval and are
always seeking it.
And yet, there are times whenthey often clash and they
disagree, and it really becomesvery hard.
We look up to our mothers, nomatter how different we are than
them, which in many cases weare.
(04:15):
What they say and do to showtheir approval is really
important for us.
There's constantly that pushpull where you might be at odds
with your parent, but you reallywant them to endorse what you're
doing and show their love toyou.
Don Drew (04:28):
Julie, were there any particular stories that moved
you in the process of writingthe book?
Did you learn something thatsurprised or shifted your own
perspective?
Julie Halpert (04:37):
Yeah, there are a couple of things.
It's funny'cause I haven'tlooked back at this book in a
long time.
So today I was looking back atit for the first time in a long
time.
And there was one particularlyinteresting story about a
daughter who felt her mother wascriticizing her for being
overprotective of her baby.
She slept with her baby, and themother thought that wasn't
right.
Anytime the baby would cry shewould run to the baby, and the
(04:59):
mother thought this was gonnainstill in the child a sense of
dependency that was not helpful.
So the daughter emailed themother, even though she lived
near her, and said something tothe effect of, When you say
these things, it makes me feelinadequate, like, you're
questioning my parenting anddon't think that I'm a good
mother.
And the mother responded andsaid, I never meant to imply
(05:22):
that.
I think you're a great mother.
And so sometimes the way peoplebehave isn't what they really
are thinking.
And what we often found throughthis book was that leading with
empathy, leading with, the wayyou're acting is making me feel
this way often, it may notnecessarily resolve the problem,
but it could allow eachgeneration to understand each
(05:42):
other.
The other lesson that I tookaway and that I try to use as I
parent my daughters to this dayis, be careful about not pushing
your children to lead the lifethat you want them to lead.
Accept their choices and allowthem to do whatever it is that
makes them happy.
There are oftentimes when Iwanna chime in and give advice,
(06:02):
and tell them what to do or whatI think they should do when,
what's more helpful, whenthey're having an issue, is to
just listen.
I mean, I think in Hamilton It'stalk less smile more.
I would say Talk less, listenmore.
We all can benefit from reallylistening and hearing whoever is
coming to us with a probleminstead of just trying to jump
in and solve it.
Don Drew (06:22):
We had a guest on here a while back that talked about
the importance of asking morequestions, and I think that's
really a big part of what you'resaying.
Julie Halpert (06:29):
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
David Lowry (06:30):
Julie, when you spoke a moment ago, so many
things came up for me aboutraising my own kids and my
parents in law and my parentsand all the advice I got.
I probably needed all of thatadvice, but at the time it
didn't feel helpful.
And these days I try to remindmyself of just how it felt when
I received all of that advice.
(06:51):
My parenting days are over.
I need to respect what my kidsare doing.
But one of the things that youmentioned that Oh, I think
you're a good mother.
I think our children really needto hear that from us.
Because they need all the helpthey can get don't they?
Julie Halpert (07:07):
That's a really great point and I will never
forget my mother rarely laid onthe praise, even though I knew
she was proud of me.
She just wasn't verydemonstrative.
There was one time when Iremember she said, I think
you're a great mother.
And I think I nearly burst intotears because I hardly ever
heard that.
I think that goes so far.
I mean, the message can bedelivered at any time, like when
(07:29):
there's a time of self-doubt, oryour child is really struggling
with the colicky baby, or feelsa sense of guilt, which mothers
often do and they have lots ofthings to juggle, just to say, I
just wanna let you know, I thinkyou're a great parent, a great
mother.
It can be extremely valuable andgiving that unsolicited praise
goes a long way.
Don Drew (07:48):
One of the big themes in your book is how generational
shifts, especially in genderroles and career expectations,
can create conflict.
And we'll talk here in a fewminutes more about current
generational issues.
But help us unpack some of whatyou learned in this process?
Julie Halpert (08:04):
Our generations, they've shifted, right?
The people who are young motherstoday have probably more in
common than I did with mymother.
But at the time we wrote thisbook, there was a very big
difference between women whoraised their children in the
fifties and sixties and thosewho raised their children in the
subsequent generation.
In all sorts of ways.
(08:24):
Women more commonly stayed home,did not work outside the home to
raise their children.
That also allowed them thechance to spend more time
cleaning and cooking four-coursemeals and lives, in some
respects, were narrower,although some would argue less
stress.
There are other women weinterviewed, interestingly, who
actually did work during thattime.
(08:46):
When their children decided tobe stay-at-home moms, they were
very resentful of that becausethey felt that there were these
opportunities open to them thatthey didn't wanna take.
Often, when you got marriedright away, before you had kids,
some women, at the time that weinterviewed, decided not to have
kids at all, or certainlydecided to have smaller families
for a variety of reasons,economic, professional.
(09:08):
So that was often a big sourceof conflict.
Why aren't you having kids?
Why are you waiting too long tohave kids?
Why are you not having morekids?
And also the role of men.
Father's a generation or moreago, weren't as involved in the
rearing of children and themothers sometimes felt like
their son-in-laws did more orwere even taken advantage of by
their daughters.
(09:29):
That was often a source ofconflict.
Today, similarly in the area of,having children, a lot of young
people don't wanna have childrenat all because of climate change
and all kinds of other factors.
Definitely economic factors.
So you've got differences in theway people live their lives, 50
or 60 years ago versus the waypeople are living their lives
today.
Don Drew (09:50):
Yeah.
My son, who is 38, I've noticedhe and his friends are much more
directly involved in theirchildren's everyday life than I
was in my generation.
Part of my understanding of whatI was supposed to be doing is
making money so that the worldcan continue on good for
everybody.
And the reality is that I missedout on a lot.
I look at my son and his friendsand I go, Man, they're getting
(10:11):
it a whole lot better than Idid.
And I think it's really apositive role change that's
taken place in these last coupleof generations.
Julie Halpert (10:19):
Definitely.
And the other thing I shouldmention is that the extent to
which children are scheduled isstarkly different than a
generation ago when like thesummers you just, roamed on your
bike all day and you were calledin for dinner, right?
And moms, even though they wereat home, they may or may not
have done as much in terms ofmanaging a child, taking them to
these activities, gettinginvolved at every level.
(10:40):
So that's another source ofconflict where the grandparents
will be like Why do you have tohave them scheduled so much?
Right?
And then the parents say well,that's how it's done.
David Lowry (10:47):
You're absolutely right.
There is such a big generationaldifference.
I related to what you said aboutthe shifts between our
generation and how it was.
I had a very structured notionof what my father was supposed
to do and subsequently what Iwas supposed to do, and how my
sisters were supposed tofunction in the family.
Where do you see the biggestdisconnect between the
(11:10):
generations?
Julie Halpert (11:11):
I think it's more a lack of understanding or an
interest in understanding.
So, even if my life is differentthan the lives my children lead,
I'm curious and I wanna try tofigure out why they do what they
do, and I wanna try to supportthat.
In my parents' generationeverything seemed more rigid.
There were certain ways to dothings and you didn't diverge
(11:32):
from ways.
They were just really verydifferent.
And, again, I think withsubsequent generations there's
less of a gap because theirlives are a bit more similar.
And the other issue I shouldmention that's naturally
different is my parents andtheir generation had us
generally when they were muchyounger.
So they were, I wouldn't saypeers, but they were younger and
they hadn't lived as much life.
(11:54):
I think older parents do thingsdifferently.
I mentioned before theoverprotection thing, hyper
involvement, that parents getinvolved in.
I wouldn't say it's just onething, but there's a lot of
judgment there and I think wherethere's judgment, there's gonna
be conflict.
Don Drew (12:07):
Julie, when we first started talking, you mentioned
that you don't consider yourselfan expert on intergenerational
relationships, and I wanna honorthat by asking you about your
own experience.
Your relationship with yourmother has evolved since
writing, Making up with Mom, andyou've raised two daughters to
adulthood.
What have you learned orexperienced that might help
mothers and daughters who wantto improve their relationship
(12:29):
but don't really know how tobegin the conversation?
Julie Halpert (12:32):
I would say that on both sides with my own
mother, she was unusual for hertime in that she did work
full-time.
She was a teacher, so she didhave her summers off.
And my father was very much ahands-on father.
He made our lunches.
He took us to school.
He was very involved, which isamazing.
She was less demonstrative.
And again, I always had a senseof needing to make sure I was
wearing lipstick when I went tosee her.
(12:53):
She was very into how peoplelooked and your external
appearance.
She always felt like she knewwhat was right.
Didn't seem all that interestedin learning from me, and she
could be a bit judgmental.
Interestingly, as I was writingthe book, we learned from mental
health experts there's somethingcalled the good enough
relationship.
I mean, there are some peoplewhose parents are just toxic,
(13:13):
and of course you can't continueto have a relationship with
them.
But I learned to respect mymother for who she was.
Her father was very difficult.
Her mother was lovely, but shedidn't get a lot of that love
and affection from her father.
So I began to understand theimpact of that on her, and that
she really always wanted thebest for us.
And at some point, I stoppedseeking her approval for things.
(13:35):
And that was very freeing.
She hadn't even really read mybook, and then she was gonna be
interviewed about it for a localpublication.
It shocked me.
She wasn't free flowing with thecompliments.
She would compliment us to otherpeople when she was bragging
about us.
But there came a point in mylife where I was just like, You
know what?
It doesn't matter.
I have a wonderful family.
I have supportive husband, andso I'm not gonna let this rule
(13:56):
me.
And in terms of my relationshipwith my daughters, I notice the
parts of my mother that I amlike, which is I wanna jump in
and tell them what to do.
I'm not always as much of alistener as I should be.
So I try to really be veryintentional in that.
And somebody gave me thisadvice.
say, Do you want my advice or doyou just want to vent?
(14:16):
I've had my younger daughtersay, Thank you for just letting
me vent.
It's sometimes really hard todo, to hear somebody's problems
and not be able to help themsolve them, but sometimes that's
what they need.
So I'm very curious about themand their lives.
I always say I love you and I'mproud of you.
If I don't say it verbally, Iwrite them birthday letters once
a year.
Which my mother actually startedto do with us too.
(14:37):
So I really try to make surethey know they're supported, and
that's really the most importantthing.
David Lowry (14:42):
I thank you for what you said about giving
compliments to your kids,letting them know how proud you
are of them.
I think that's so important.
My dad has been gone for quite awhile now, but one of the things
I remember, when I think of dad,is him saying how proud he was
of me.
How many times did he say that?
I don't really know, but itstuck with me.
(15:02):
Some people call it TheBlessing, when a parent blesses
their children by saying, Hey,you're great.
I really respect you.
That's good.
You also mentioned somethingabout advice giving.
There's something so appealingabout being asked your opinion
about something and we almostalways wanna take the bait.
I've come to a different opinionabout that.
(15:25):
One of my sons is a CFO for abig corporation, and the other
one is a programmer, he went toBerkeley, and he doesn't really
need my advice.
I just say, You make decisionsas good as I do.
Do what you think you ought tobe doing and just know I'm
behind you on that.
Hearing you talk about thisbrings that up for me.
Julie Halpert (15:44):
Yeah, my younger daughter's a journalist.
Until very recently, she wassending us her articles to read,
and I'd be like, you have this,you're a professional journalist
now.
You don't really need me to lookat your articles anymore.
You got this.
But sometimes that's what theyneed to hear.
David Lowry (15:58):
Well, they never really get away from not needing
us to love,,respect and to bragon them and to be, Hey, I got
your back and all of that.
But I have found that if youwere to really give in and say,
well, you might have used thisdifferent voice or had these
sources you might find out howquickly they'd turned on you.
Don Drew (16:18):
Yeah, they generally don't need our advice, do they?
Julie Halpert (16:20):
Right?
Don Drew (16:21):
So Julie, looking at the book, like I said, it's been
a few years since you wroteMaking Up with Mom.
If you were to revisit writingthat now, what new themes or
generational dynamics do youthink you might explore in
today's context?
Julie Halpert (16:34):
Well, I would say the most important thing is
technology, the impact ofscreens and technology and
relationships.
Again, it's pretty neat that alot of older parents do text and
use FaceTime.
And honestly, it's probablybrought them close to their
children and grandchildren ifthey don't live locally.
But that has revolutionized theway people live their lives.
(16:56):
It was just starting to blossomwhen my kids were really little.
We didn't have to deal withphones, texting, and access to
the internet.
That really has revolutionizedhow people live their lives, how
people parent, and drawboundaries.
And I can only imagine the riftsit must create between the adult
children and their parents.
I remember being astounded whenI would see a parent taking a
(17:16):
kid to coffee and they're ontheir phone and the kid's right
there in the stroller.
Like, oh my gosh, you're missingthis moment.
But they're natives with thistechnology.
Also the challenges that youngadults face.
It's hard for them to purchase ahouse.
There's job instability.
We have a whole host of othermuch more challenging factors
now.
We have rampant gun violence,climate change, and a very
divided political environmentwhere people can't really often
(17:39):
speak civilly to each other.
There seems to be so muchdivision.
All those things really factorinto how you parent your kids,
whether you decide to have achild, in a way that none of
that really existed when I was ayoung mom.
David Lowry (17:52):
Julie, have you heard of this term called no
contact?
Parents who are facing thisproblem of no contact because of
the stress of intergenerationalcommunication is so tense that
some families are saying, I'mnot gonna have anything to do
with you anymore.
Julie Halpert (18:07):
It's a great question.
Sometimes it was the case withpeople who had different
cultures like immigrants raiseda certain way, and then they
tried to impart that on theirchildren who were raised in the
United States.
This is a really sad situationand it's definitely something
that should be navigated withthe help of a mental health
professional because it is apretty drastic move and
obviously there's a lot of majorissues at play there.
(18:27):
So my advice would be to get theadvice of somebody who
specializes in this to figureout how to proceed.
David Lowry (18:33):
Sounds like great advice.
Julie, you've had tragedy inyour life.
Talk to us about that and tellus what, we need to know,
especially as it relates toGarrett's Space.
Why is that so important to you?
Julie Halpert (18:46):
My husband and I lost our son Garrett, to suicide
in 2017 when he was 23 yearsold.
It's the worst thing a parentcan ever endure.
And, we were really trying tofigure out how we were gonna go
on.
There was a huge gap intreatment for young adults who
are struggling with mentalhealth issues.
And so we have created and areliterally in the process of
building a non-medicalresidential center where young
(19:09):
adults, ages 18 to 28, can comefor short stays in a beautiful
natural environment, a healingenvironment, and gain coping
strategies on how to live inwhat is a very hard world and
also get support from peers andbe with others who are
experiencing similar challengesand get help that they're not
alone their struggles and thatthey can heal and learn how to
(19:31):
live a full life.
We started this, officially, asa nonprofit in 2019.
We purchased land on 76 acresjust outside of Ann Arbor.
And we literally just brokeground on it.
We also have been runningvirtually since COVID Wellness
programming where young adultsmeet for mood and movement
activities in a support groupwith peers.
And they are finding a communitythey've never found before.
(19:51):
It exceeded our wildestexpectations in so many
wonderful ways.
We hope to make this a model.
We hope to have a Garrett'sSpace someday in Oklahoma and
Tennessee and Chicago and allover the world because this is a
model that really is just commonsense.
There's such a dearth of supportoptions now for young adults who
are facing innumerablechallenges.
We feel very fortunate that thisis coming to fruition and we
(20:14):
hope we'll make a difference andsave lives.
Don Drew (20:15):
So Julie, what's next for you and how can people learn
more about you and your work?
Julie Halpert (20:20):
What's next?
I'm a working journalist.
One of my gigs that I reallymost enjoy is the Second Act
Stories that I write for theWall Street Journal about people
who pursue interesting and newpassions late in life.
These are in The Journal twice ayear, in November and April.
And I'm always looking for greatcandidates.
So people who are doingsomething really out there and
interesting that gives themincredible joy, if anybody is
(20:43):
interested you can reach methrough my website which is
julie halpert.com.
We just hired executive directorat Garrett's Space.
Our website is Garrett, two Rs.
Two T's, two S's.
it's a pretty comprehensivewebsite that tells you a lot
about what we're about.
If you are seeking help, we havea section for that.
We have crisis resources.
We are offering wellnessprogramming free of charge, but
(21:03):
it is for people within a 58mile radius of Ann Arbor.
Once the residence opens,however, it'll be offered to
anybody anywhere in the countryand we are going to be offering
service but we're going to beoffering our service on a
sliding scale so anybody whoqualifies to be admitted could
do so regardless of theirability to pay.
We really want this to beAccessable..
If you wanna donate, you cancertainly donate online there.
(21:24):
We're of course always eager forsupport year round.
This is a very ambitious projectand it will require a lot of
financial resources.
So we're always looking forthat.
Don Drew (21:33):
All relationships are complex and cross generational
relationships between mothersand their daughters are no
exception.
Modern pressures andgenerational shifts will always
present challenges as each of usare in fact learning as we go,
finding out what it means to bea brother, a daughter, and a
mother at each stage of ourlives, whether we are 20 or 80.
Julie has provided valuableinsights today, and I look
(21:55):
forward to reading more of yourarticles on Second Acts.
I also want to remind ourlisteners that Garrett Space is
dedicated to reducing suicidesand filling critical gaps in
supportive care options foryoung adults 18 to 28 facing
mental health challenges.
They're located in Ann Arbor,Michigan, and you can find them
online at garrettsspace.org.
(22:15):
Julie Halpert, thank you so muchfor joining us on Peaceful Life
Radio today.
Julie Halpert (22:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
When I started writting this book, which was a
(00:01):
while ago, I was a young motherand very overwhelmed trying to
do everything.
There was a pivotal moment wheremy mother had stayed over and
was watching me run around likea crazy person trying to satisfy
my three kids, get them out thedoor, get the baby dressed, and
start my workday.
I could feel her silent judgmentof what was going on that, I was
(00:23):
somehow was falling short.
And I really felt like thereneeded to be a book that allowed
the two generations tocommunicate with each other.
David Lowry (00:31):
That was Julie Halpert, an award-winning
free-lance journalist who's withus today on Peaceful Life Radio.
Hello everyone, I'm David Lowry.
Welcome to the program, and withme today is my good friend Don
Drew.
Don, how are you?
Don Drew (00:45):
I'm doing great.
David, how are you doing?
David Lowry (00:47):
Listen, I'm rooting for the Thunder and I don't know
when this program's going toair, but hopefully if my prayers
are answered, the Thunder willbe the new champions.
Don Drew (00:57):
We will see.
David Lowry (00:58):
Either that or I'll be crying for the next year or
so.
But Don, tell us about our guesttoday, Julie Halpert.
Don Drew (01:04):
Absolutely.
David Julie Halpert is anaward-winning freelance
journalist with more than threedecades of experience writing
for many national publications,including The New York Times,
the Wall Street Journal, theAtlantic, and AARP.
She writes the Second ActsStories in the Wall Street
Journal about those who haveswitched to new types of careers
and passions late in life.
(01:24):
She is also the co-author ofMaking Up With Mom, which
focuses on generationaldifferences between women and
their mothers and how to resolvethem.
She has focused extensively onissues of aging, writing about
the many ways that boomers areredefining retirement and
reinventing themselves duringthis period of life.
And today we're fortunate tohave her on Peaceful Life Radio.
(01:45):
Her book is subtitled, WhyMothers and daughters disagree
About Kids Careers and Casseroleand What to do about it and
explores the often complex andemotionally charged
relationships between adultdaughters and their mothers.
Julie Halpert, welcome toPeaceful Life Radio.
Julie Halpert (02:00):
Thanks so much for having me.
Don Drew (02:01):
Julie, you wrote your book back in 2008, and we'll get
around to what you've learnedsince then.
But what led you to write MakingUp With Mom?
Was there a specific moment orexperience that made you realize
the book needed to exist?
Julie Halpert (02:13):
Well, the main thing when I started writting
this book, which was a whileago, and by the way, I co-wrote
this with Deborah Carr, who's, asociologist.
But I was living it because Iwas a young mother and very
overwhelmed trying to doeverything.
And there was a pivotal momentwhere my mother had stayed over
and was watching me run aroundlike a crazy person trying to
satisfy my three kids, get themout the door, get the baby
(02:36):
dressed, and start my workday.
And I could feel her silentjudgment of what was going on,
that I somehow was fallingshort.
And I really felt like thereneeded to be a book that allowed
the two generations tocommunicate with each other.
These generations now it'sdifferent, I think probably with
the current generation ofmothers and their mothers.
But for my generation, which isthe boomer generation, we were
(02:59):
living very different lives andraising our kids in many ways in
a very different way than ourparents raised us.
There was often a lack ofunderstanding, a lack of
empathy, that led to tensionsbetween mothers and daughter.
I thought it would be amazing tohave a book where a lot of women
and their mothers could sharetheir stories and then we could
have therapist and otherprofessionals weigh in on how
(03:20):
they could bridge that gap.
And so we interviewed 50mother-daughter pairs, both
mothers and daughters, andsometimes there was revelations
in those conversations when wedid them with the mothers and
daughters together.
And then we had all these realgreat takeaways, which I still
often use in my own life.
So it was a very practical bookand because of Debbie's
sociology background, sheprovided a great historical
(03:41):
perspective of the role of womenthroughout time.
David Lowry (03:43):
Julie, this title hints at tension and hope.
So why do you think themother-daughter relationship is
so often challenging and yet soimportant?
Julie Halpert (03:54):
I think it's because mothers and daughters
really need each other.
I.
That daughters really valuetheir mother's approval and are
always seeking it.
And yet, there are times whenthey often clash and they
disagree, and it really becomesvery hard.
We look up to our mothers, nomatter how different we are than
them, which in many cases weare.
(04:15):
What they say and do to showtheir approval is really
important for us.
There's constantly that pushpull where you might be at odds
with your parent, but you reallywant them to endorse what you're
doing and show their love toyou.
Don Drew (04:28):
Julie, were there any particular stories that moved
you in the process of writingthe book?
Did you learn something thatsurprised or shifted your own
perspective?
Julie Halpert (04:37):
Yeah, there are a couple of things.
It's funny'cause I haven'tlooked back at this book in a
long time.
So today I was looking back atit for the first time in a long
time.
And there was one particularlyinteresting story about a
daughter who felt her mother wascriticizing her for being
overprotective of her baby.
She slept with her baby, and themother thought that wasn't
right.
Anytime the baby would cry shewould run to the baby, and the
(04:59):
mother thought this was gonnainstill in the child a sense of
dependency that was not helpful.
So the daughter emailed themother, even though she lived
near her, and said something tothe effect of, When you say
these things, it makes me feelinadequate, like, you're
questioning my parenting anddon't think that I'm a good
mother.
And the mother responded andsaid, I never meant to imply
(05:22):
that.
I think you're a great mother.
And so sometimes the way peoplebehave isn't what they really
are thinking.
And what we often found throughthis book was that leading with
empathy, leading with, the wayyou're acting is making me feel
this way often, it may notnecessarily resolve the problem,
but it could allow eachgeneration to understand each
(05:42):
other.
The other lesson that I tookaway and that I try to use as I
parent my daughters to this dayis, be careful about not pushing
your children to lead the lifethat you want them to lead.
Accept their choices and allowthem to do whatever it is that
makes them happy.
There are oftentimes when Iwanna chime in and give advice,
(06:02):
and tell them what to do or whatI think they should do when,
what's more helpful, whenthey're having an issue, is to
just listen.
I mean, I think in Hamilton It'stalk less smile more.
I would say Talk less, listenmore.
We all can benefit from reallylistening and hearing whoever is
coming to us with a probleminstead of just trying to jump
in and solve it.
Don Drew (06:22):
We had a guest on here a while back that talked about
the importance of asking morequestions, and I think that's
really a big part of what you'resaying.
Julie Halpert (06:29):
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
David Lowry (06:30):
Julie, when you spoke a moment ago, so many
things came up for me aboutraising my own kids and my
parents in law and my parentsand all the advice I got.
I probably needed all of thatadvice, but at the time it
didn't feel helpful.
And these days I try to remindmyself of just how it felt when
I received all of that advice.
(06:51):
My parenting days are over.
I need to respect what my kidsare doing.
But one of the things that youmentioned that Oh, I think
you're a good mother.
I think our children really needto hear that from us.
Because they need all the helpthey can get don't they?
Julie Halpert (07:07):
That's a really great point and I will never
forget my mother rarely laid onthe praise, even though I knew
she was proud of me.
She just wasn't verydemonstrative.
There was one time when Iremember she said, I think
you're a great mother.
And I think I nearly burst intotears because I hardly ever
heard that.
I think that goes so far.
I mean, the message can bedelivered at any time, like when
(07:29):
there's a time of self-doubt, oryour child is really struggling
with the colicky baby, or feelsa sense of guilt, which mothers
often do and they have lots ofthings to juggle, just to say, I
just wanna let you know, I thinkyou're a great parent, a great
mother.
It can be extremely valuable andgiving that unsolicited praise
goes a long way.
Don Drew (07:48):
One of the big themes in your book is how generational
shifts, especially in genderroles and career expectations,
can create conflict.
And we'll talk here in a fewminutes more about current
generational issues.
But help us unpack some of whatyou learned in this process?
Julie Halpert (08:04):
Our generations, they've shifted, right?
The people who are young motherstoday have probably more in
common than I did with mymother.
But at the time we wrote thisbook, there was a very big
difference between women whoraised their children in the
fifties and sixties and thosewho raised their children in the
subsequent generation.
In all sorts of ways.
(08:24):
Women more commonly stayed home,did not work outside the home to
raise their children.
That also allowed them thechance to spend more time
cleaning and cooking four-coursemeals and lives, in some
respects, were narrower,although some would argue less
stress.
There are other women weinterviewed, interestingly, who
actually did work during thattime.
(08:46):
When their children decided tobe stay-at-home moms, they were
very resentful of that becausethey felt that there were these
opportunities open to them thatthey didn't wanna take.
Often, when you got marriedright away, before you had kids,
some women, at the time that weinterviewed, decided not to have
kids at all, or certainlydecided to have smaller families
for a variety of reasons,economic, professional.
(09:08):
So that was often a big sourceof conflict.
Why aren't you having kids?
Why are you waiting too long tohave kids?
Why are you not having morekids?
And also the role of men.
Father's a generation or moreago, weren't as involved in the
rearing of children and themothers sometimes felt like
their son-in-laws did more orwere even taken advantage of by
their daughters.
(09:29):
That was often a source ofconflict.
Today, similarly in the area of,having children, a lot of young
people don't wanna have childrenat all because of climate change
and all kinds of other factors.
Definitely economic factors.
So you've got differences in theway people live their lives, 50
or 60 years ago versus the waypeople are living their lives
today.
Don Drew (09:50):
Yeah.
My son, who is 38, I've noticedhe and his friends are much more
directly involved in theirchildren's everyday life than I
was in my generation.
Part of my understanding of whatI was supposed to be doing is
making money so that the worldcan continue on good for
everybody.
And the reality is that I missedout on a lot.
I look at my son and his friendsand I go, Man, they're getting
(10:11):
it a whole lot better than Idid.
And I think it's really apositive role change that's
taken place in these last coupleof generations.
Julie Halpert (10:19):
Definitely.
And the other thing I shouldmention is that the extent to
which children are scheduled isstarkly different than a
generation ago when like thesummers you just, roamed on your
bike all day and you were calledin for dinner, right?
And moms, even though they wereat home, they may or may not
have done as much in terms ofmanaging a child, taking them to
these activities, gettinginvolved at every level.
(10:40):
So that's another source ofconflict where the grandparents
will be like Why do you have tohave them scheduled so much?
Right?
And then the parents say well,that's how it's done.
David Lowry (10:47):
You're absolutely right.
There is such a big generationaldifference.
I related to what you said aboutthe shifts between our
generation and how it was.
I had a very structured notionof what my father was supposed
to do and subsequently what Iwas supposed to do, and how my
sisters were supposed tofunction in the family.
Where do you see the biggestdisconnect between the
(11:10):
generations?
Julie Halpert (11:11):
I think it's more a lack of understanding or an
interest in understanding.
So, even if my life is differentthan the lives my children lead,
I'm curious and I wanna try tofigure out why they do what they
do, and I wanna try to supportthat.
In my parents' generationeverything seemed more rigid.
There were certain ways to dothings and you didn't diverge
(11:32):
from ways.
They were just really verydifferent.
And, again, I think withsubsequent generations there's
less of a gap because theirlives are a bit more similar.
And the other issue I shouldmention that's naturally
different is my parents andtheir generation had us
generally when they were muchyounger.
So they were, I wouldn't saypeers, but they were younger and
they hadn't lived as much life.
(11:54):
I think older parents do thingsdifferently.
I mentioned before theoverprotection thing, hyper
involvement, that parents getinvolved in.
I wouldn't say it's just onething, but there's a lot of
judgment there and I think wherethere's judgment, there's gonna
be conflict.
Don Drew (12:07):
Julie, when we first started talking, you mentioned
that you don't consider yourselfan expert on intergenerational
relationships, and I wanna honorthat by asking you about your
own experience.
Your relationship with yourmother has evolved since
writing, Making up with Mom, andyou've raised two daughters to
adulthood.
What have you learned orexperienced that might help
mothers and daughters who wantto improve their relationship
(12:29):
but don't really know how tobegin the conversation?
Julie Halpert (12:32):
I would say that on both sides with my own
mother, she was unusual for hertime in that she did work
full-time.
She was a teacher, so she didhave her summers off.
And my father was very much ahands-on father.
He made our lunches.
He took us to school.
He was very involved, which isamazing.
She was less demonstrative.
And again, I always had a senseof needing to make sure I was
wearing lipstick when I went tosee her.
(12:53):
She was very into how peoplelooked and your external
appearance.
She always felt like she knewwhat was right.
Didn't seem all that interestedin learning from me, and she
could be a bit judgmental.
Interestingly, as I was writingthe book, we learned from mental
health experts there's somethingcalled the good enough
relationship.
I mean, there are some peoplewhose parents are just toxic,
(13:13):
and of course you can't continueto have a relationship with
them.
But I learned to respect mymother for who she was.
Her father was very difficult.
Her mother was lovely, but shedidn't get a lot of that love
and affection from her father.
So I began to understand theimpact of that on her, and that
she really always wanted thebest for us.
And at some point, I stoppedseeking her approval for things.
(13:35):
And that was very freeing.
She hadn't even really read mybook, and then she was gonna be
interviewed about it for a localpublication.
It shocked me.
She wasn't free flowing with thecompliments.
She would compliment us to otherpeople when she was bragging
about us.
But there came a point in mylife where I was just like, You
know what?
It doesn't matter.
I have a wonderful family.
I have supportive husband, andso I'm not gonna let this rule
(13:56):
me.
And in terms of my relationshipwith my daughters, I notice the
parts of my mother that I amlike, which is I wanna jump in
and tell them what to do.
I'm not always as much of alistener as I should be.
So I try to really be veryintentional in that.
And somebody gave me thisadvice.
say, Do you want my advice or doyou just want to vent?
(14:16):
I've had my younger daughtersay, Thank you for just letting
me vent.
It's sometimes really hard todo, to hear somebody's problems
and not be able to help themsolve them, but sometimes that's
what they need.
So I'm very curious about themand their lives.
I always say I love you and I'mproud of you.
If I don't say it verbally, Iwrite them birthday letters once
a year.
Which my mother actually startedto do with us too.
(14:37):
So I really try to make surethey know they're supported, and
that's really the most importantthing.
David Lowry (14:42):
I thank you for what you said about giving
compliments to your kids,letting them know how proud you
are of them.
I think that's so important.
My dad has been gone for quite awhile now, but one of the things
I remember, when I think of dad,is him saying how proud he was
of me.
How many times did he say that?
I don't really know, but itstuck with me.
(15:02):
Some people call it TheBlessing, when a parent blesses
their children by saying, Hey,you're great.
I really respect you.
That's good.
You also mentioned somethingabout advice giving.
There's something so appealingabout being asked your opinion
about something and we almostalways wanna take the bait.
I've come to a different opinionabout that.
(15:25):
One of my sons is a CFO for abig corporation, and the other
one is a programmer, he went toBerkeley, and he doesn't really
need my advice.
I just say, You make decisionsas good as I do.
Do what you think you ought tobe doing and just know I'm
behind you on that.
Hearing you talk about thisbrings that up for me.
Julie Halpert (15:44):
Yeah, my younger daughter's a journalist.
Until very recently, she wassending us her articles to read,
and I'd be like, you have this,you're a professional journalist
now.
You don't really need me to lookat your articles anymore.
You got this.
But sometimes that's what theyneed to hear.
David Lowry (15:58):
Well, they never really get away from not needing
us to love,,respect and to bragon them and to be, Hey, I got
your back and all of that.
But I have found that if youwere to really give in and say,
well, you might have used thisdifferent voice or had these
sources you might find out howquickly they'd turned on you.
Don Drew (16:18):
Yeah, they generally don't need our advice, do they?
Julie Halpert (16:20):
Right?
Don Drew (16:21):
So Julie, looking at the book, like I said, it's been
a few years since you wroteMaking Up with Mom.
If you were to revisit writingthat now, what new themes or
generational dynamics do youthink you might explore in
today's context?
Julie Halpert (16:34):
Well, I would say the most important thing is
technology, the impact ofscreens and technology and
relationships.
Again, it's pretty neat that alot of older parents do text and
use FaceTime.
And honestly, it's probablybrought them close to their
children and grandchildren ifthey don't live locally.
But that has revolutionized theway people live their lives.
(16:56):
It was just starting to blossomwhen my kids were really little.
We didn't have to deal withphones, texting, and access to
the internet.
That really has revolutionizedhow people live their lives, how
people parent, and drawboundaries.
And I can only imagine the riftsit must create between the adult
children and their parents.
I remember being astounded whenI would see a parent taking a
(17:16):
kid to coffee and they're ontheir phone and the kid's right
there in the stroller.
Like, oh my gosh, you're missingthis moment.
But they're natives with thistechnology.
Also the challenges that youngadults face.
It's hard for them to purchase ahouse.
There's job instability.
We have a whole host of othermuch more challenging factors
now.
We have rampant gun violence,climate change, and a very
divided political environmentwhere people can't really often
(17:39):
speak civilly to each other.
There seems to be so muchdivision.
All those things really factorinto how you parent your kids,
whether you decide to have achild, in a way that none of
that really existed when I was ayoung mom.
David Lowry (17:52):
Julie, have you heard of this term called no
contact?
Parents who are facing thisproblem of no contact because of
the stress of intergenerationalcommunication is so tense that
some families are saying, I'mnot gonna have anything to do
with you anymore.
Julie Halpert (18:07):
It's a great question.
Sometimes it was the case withpeople who had different
cultures like immigrants raiseda certain way, and then they
tried to impart that on theirchildren who were raised in the
United States.
This is a really sad situationand it's definitely something
that should be navigated withthe help of a mental health
professional because it is apretty drastic move and
obviously there's a lot of majorissues at play there.
(18:27):
So my advice would be to get theadvice of somebody who
specializes in this to figureout how to proceed.
David Lowry (18:33):
Sounds like great advice.
Julie, you've had tragedy inyour life.
Talk to us about that and tellus what, we need to know,
especially as it relates toGarrett's Space.
Why is that so important to you?
Julie Halpert (18:46):
My husband and I lost our son Garrett, to suicide
in 2017 when he was 23 yearsold.
It's the worst thing a parentcan ever endure.
And, we were really trying tofigure out how we were gonna go
on.
There was a huge gap intreatment for young adults who
are struggling with mentalhealth issues.
And so we have created and areliterally in the process of
building a non-medicalresidential center where young
(19:09):
adults, ages 18 to 28, can comefor short stays in a beautiful
natural environment, a healingenvironment, and gain coping
strategies on how to live inwhat is a very hard world and
also get support from peers andbe with others who are
experiencing similar challengesand get help that they're not
alone their struggles and thatthey can heal and learn how to
(19:31):
live a full life.
We started this, officially, asa nonprofit in 2019.
We purchased land on 76 acresjust outside of Ann Arbor.
And we literally just brokeground on it.
We also have been runningvirtually since COVID Wellness
programming where young adultsmeet for mood and movement
activities in a support groupwith peers.
And they are finding a communitythey've never found before.
(19:51):
It exceeded our wildestexpectations in so many
wonderful ways.
We hope to make this a model.
We hope to have a Garrett'sSpace someday in Oklahoma and
Tennessee and Chicago and allover the world because this is a
model that really is just commonsense.
There's such a dearth of supportoptions now for young adults who
are facing innumerablechallenges.
We feel very fortunate that thisis coming to fruition and we
(20:14):
hope we'll make a difference andsave lives.
Don Drew (20:15):
So Julie, what's next for you and how can people learn
more about you and your work?
Julie Halpert (20:20):
What's next?
I'm a working journalist.
One of my gigs that I reallymost enjoy is the Second Act
Stories that I write for theWall Street Journal about people
who pursue interesting and newpassions late in life.
These are in The Journal twice ayear, in November and April.
And I'm always looking for greatcandidates.
So people who are doingsomething really out there and
interesting that gives themincredible joy, if anybody is
(20:43):
interested you can reach methrough my website which is
julie halpert.com.
We just hired executive directorat Garrett's Space.
Our website is Garrett, two Rs.
Two T's, two S's.
it's a pretty comprehensivewebsite that tells you a lot
about what we're about.
If you are seeking help, we havea section for that.
We have crisis resources.
We are offering wellnessprogramming free of charge, but
(21:03):
it is for people within a 58mile radius of Ann Arbor.
Once the residence opens,however, it'll be offered to
anybody anywhere in the countryand we are going to be offering
service but we're going to beoffering our service on a
sliding scale so anybody whoqualifies to be admitted could
do so regardless of theirability to pay.
We really want this to beAccessable..
If you wanna donate, you cancertainly donate online there.
(21:24):
We're of course always eager forsupport year round.
This is a very ambitious projectand it will require a lot of
financial resources.
So we're always looking forthat.
Don Drew (21:33):
All relationships are complex and cross generational
relationships between mothersand their daughters are no
exception.
Modern pressures andgenerational shifts will always
present challenges as each of usare in fact learning as we go,
finding out what it means to bea brother, a daughter, and a
mother at each stage of ourlives, whether we are 20 or 80.
Julie has provided valuableinsights today, and I look
(21:55):
forward to reading more of yourarticles on Second Acts.
I also want to remind ourlisteners that Garrett Space is
dedicated to reducing suicidesand filling critical gaps in
supportive care options foryoung adults 18 to 28 facing
mental health challenges.
They're located in Ann Arbor,Michigan, and you can find them
online at garrettsspace.org.
(22:15):
Julie Halpert, thank you so muchfor joining us on Peaceful Life
Radio today.
Julie Halpert (22:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
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