April 27, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, co-hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome Ashton Applewhite, author of 'This Chair Rocks: A Manifesto Against Ageism.' Ashton explores the social and personal implications of ageism, discussing its roots, its intersection with other forms of prejudice, and practical steps to dismantle it. Highlights include the launch of the 'Younger and Olders Dismantling Ageism' (YODA) initiative, the myth of intergenerational conflict, and the broader cultural narratives that shape our perspectives on aging. Join us for a deep dive into building an inclusive society that honors all ages.
00:00 Introduction to Aging and Ageism
00:22 Meet Ashton Applewhite
01:32 Understanding Ageism
03:54 The Yoda Initiative
07:35 Microaggressions and Ageism
11:06 Age and Capacity
15:49 Intersectionality and Ageism
17:56 Creating an Age-Friendly World
22:38 Ashton Applewhite's Legacy and Old School Hub
25:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashton Applewhite (00:00):
A really big overarching problem is the
dominant narrative around agingwell, is that to age well really
means to not age.
To work really hard to look,especially for women, and move,
especially for men, as you didwhen you were young.
That is not possible.
It's expensive.
It sets us up to compete.
(00:21):
It sets us up to fail.
David Lowry (00:22):
That was Ashton Applewhite, our guest on today's
podcast.
Welcome everybody to PeacefulLife Radio, where we aim to help
you find peace, wisdom, andgrace in the second half of
life.
I'm David Lowry, your co-host,along with my good buddy, Don
Drew.
Don, how are you today?
Don Drew (00:38):
I'm doing great, David.
David Lowry (00:39):
We have a really special guest and Don, I want
you to introduce her and getstarted in our program.
Don Drew (00:45):
Today we have Ashton Applewhite, a writer and
activist based in Brooklyn, NewYork.
An internationally recognizedexpert on ageism, Ashton is the
author of This Chair Rocks, AManifesto Against Ageism.
Ashton is the co-founder of theOld School Hub, which I imagine
we'll talk a little bit abouttoday.
She speaks widely at venues thathave included the United Nations
(01:08):
and the TED Main Stage, and isat the forefront of the emerging
movement to raise awareness ofageism and make age a criterion
for diversity.
In 2022, the United Nationsnamed Ashton one of the healthy
aging leaders transforming theworld to be a better place in
which to grow older.
Ashton Applewhite, welcome toPeaceful Life Radio.
Ashton Applewhite (01:29):
Thanks for having me.
David Lowry (01:30):
We're so glad you're with us today Ashton.
I want to ask a question youknow all about, Where ageism
comes from and what it does?
Tell us about that.
Ashton Applewhite (01:40):
I'll start with where ageism comes from and
it's all over the place.
So, where does any prejudicecome from?
You could say it comes, and I'mnot an anthropologist or a
paleontologist, but it comesfrom the fact that we are tribal
creatures and tend to associatewith people who are like us.
Age shouldn't set us apart sinceit's an experience that everyone
(02:00):
does have.
And certainly, in the oldendays, if the barbarians were at
the gates and you had to run forit, children with very short
legs and older people who can'tmove so fast are at a
disadvantage, and that isbiology.
But what has happened in thelast a 100, 150 years is there
is a lot more old age than thereused to be, which is of course,
(02:23):
a fantastic accomplishment and atriumph of public health.
But, I'm gonna stick toanswering it about North America
because I'm on thicker icethere.
Urbanization happened and alsothe industrial revolution.
People started moving out ofcountrysides and into the city.
Global capitalization happened.
(02:43):
The march of Global Capital,which meant that we started
valuing people more and moreaccording to how much paid work
they did.
We don't tend to value unpaidwork.
We don't tend to valuecaregiving and all those
important things that of courseare incredibly valuable, but
don't come with a paycheck.
And in the 20th century, thanksto more people surviving
(03:05):
childhood and better publichealth, we started having more
old people.
Because of these forces, agingcame to be conceived of a
problem to be solved.
And that's when retirementcommunities came into being,
which of course are wonderfulfor a lot of older people.
That's when the nursing homecame into being, which are less
wonderful for a lot of olderpeople.
(03:26):
We started to become a much moreage segregated society.
And anytime you havesegregation, if you don't have
contact with people who aredifferent from you, different
religion, different skin color,different anything, it's easier
for stereotypes to take hold.
So, all those things led to anincrease in ageism, which is
stereotyping and prejudice onthe basis of age in the 20th
(03:51):
century and into the 21st aroundthe world.
Don Drew (03:54):
One of your new ideas is to do something called Yoda,
to create an organization youcalled Yoda, which is younger
and older, dismantling ageism.
I think the idea.
Is to bring people together.
Is that true?
Ashton Applewhite (04:08):
That is a complicated idea.
I am delighted that you broughtit up because I'm thinking about
it nonstop.
I'm in the business haha, oftrying to raise awareness of
ageism around the world andhelping more people see what it
is and how we can dismantle it.
And one thing I realized, notthat long ago, was most of the
(04:29):
people in the age equitymovement look like me.
They're older.
A lot of them are white.
A lot of them are women.
Also, a lot of us are privilegedbecause it takes extra time to
be able to afford to become anactivist.
I now make a living at it, butthat's a rarity, believe me.
And I thought, do all agesreally have a voice?
Is this movement going outliveme?
(04:50):
Are we addressing ageism the wayit affects all ages because it
does, right?
We're being ageist when we makeany assumption on the basis of
age.
Older people definitely bear thebrunt because it's a very age
obsessed society.
But anytime you write off ayounger person as ignorant or
whatever name an attribute, youare also being ageist.
(05:14):
So, I'm happy to say that lotsand lots of people, and I'm not
one of'em, I spend most of mytime alone banging my head
against a keyboard.
But lots of organizations areworking to bring older and
younger people together to talkto each other, to work together,
to advance our shared interests,et cetera.
And the Yoda idea for Youngerand Olders, Dismantling Ageism
(05:36):
has nothing to do with Yoda.
Please don't sue me, UniversalPictures.
Is that who owns it?
Is the idea that some of theseconversations need to be about
power?
Where do we have power becauseof our age?
Where do we not have powerbecause of our age?
How is that different for olderand younger people?
How do we use it against eachother, which we do every time we
(05:58):
fall for the myth that theinterests of young people and
old people are inherentlyopposed.
There's no evidence for thatwhatsoever.
But there are real reasons topresent other generations
economic demographic goodfortune.
My kids didn't grow up into 60years of economic prosperity.
It's easier for we elders toforget how hard it is to be
(06:19):
young, and to resent youngpeoples.
That doesn't get us anywhere.
That is what all prejudice does.
It divides us so that wesquabble amongst each other
instead of figuring out what ourcommon goals are and uniting
across those barriers.
So, Yoda is the proposal thatsome of those conversations that
(06:41):
lots of people, much moreskilled than I am, about
facilitating theseconversations, because they're
tricky that some of thoseconversations be explicitly
about power.
David Lowry (06:52):
Yoda is such a beautiful idea.
I also think of Yoda as a verywise being.
So, good luck with all of that.
Ashton Applewhite (07:00):
We like that.
And clearly Yoda is old, butalso I think the character has a
youthful playfulness.
So, I want the choice to read assort of age neutral, if you
will.
David Lowry (07:12):
Ageism is pernicious and one of the things
I've discovered in the pastseveral years it's real.
I'm one of those old white guyspeople talk about.
And one of the things that'staking me aback is people
saying, So, when are you goingto retire?
And I don't think they meananything by it really.
(07:33):
But I find it irritating.
Can you talk about some of theways it's wrapped into our
society and people accept itwithout thinking about it?
Ashton Applewhite (07:40):
These comments about age are called
microaggressions.
They don't make you feel good.
Sometimes people say things withthe best of intent.
You look great for your age.
or calling me a young lady.
It's meant as a compliment.
But all it really does is drawthe attention to the fact that
I'm not a young lady, right?
And even though they might havemeant it as a compliment, and
(08:02):
intention matters, but itdoesn't let you off the hook.
And I think you are totallyjustified in, and feeling like,
oh, why are they saying that?
And I have a handy suggestion, asort of all purpose rejoinder to
when you hear an ageist orsexist or racist comment.
David Lowry (08:23):
I'm ready to hear it.
Ashton Applewhite (08:25):
Well, my daughter, she says, tell me
more.
She does it so gently.
But it's hard.
Sometimes you can make you mador make you feel offended.
And when we put people on thedefense.
We don't get anywhere becausethey think, oh, that person's a
jerk.
But just say, what do you meanby that?
David Lowry (08:39):
Great comment.
Ashton Applewhite (08:40):
Make them think about what they did mean
by it.
This is not a good story, but Iwas in a shop a couple years
ago.
It was summer, it was hot, and Itold her I was going to a dance
party and I needed a shirt.
And she said, with sleeves, Iassume?
I snarl, you kidding?
Its 108 outside?
Not a mature, helpful response.
(09:02):
But why would you think that?
It's hot out.
Don Drew (09:04):
Someone asked me recently, how old do you feel?
And I think that's a reallyloaded question as well, because
if you were to say, well, I feelyounger than I am, then that's a
good thing.
If you say you feel older thatday or whatever, meaning you're
tired or whatever, that's a badthing.
There's a lot of problematiclanguage out there.
David Lowry (09:20):
And they also say why aren't you acting your own
age?
Or something like that.
Like, we've got an assignment todo.
Ashton Applewhite (09:26):
You just did a lot of my work for me on that
one as far as acting your age.
Except for children, there's nosuch thing as age appropriate.
The longer we live, the moredifferent from one another we
become because we age atdifferent rates socially,
cognitively, physically.
I might be in a wheelchair, butbe the sharpest brain in the
room till 105, or so on.
(09:48):
You can't ever tell so thatthere's no such thing as acting
your age, because you're alwaysgonna be able or unable to do
something that someone else yoursame age can or cannot do,
right?
There's all this variety.
But as far as what age do youfeel you hit on the way we use
(10:08):
old and young as placeholders.
As you just said, I feel old.
Well, that usually meanssomething negative, right?
I feel tired, I feelincompetent, I feel useless.
We can feel all those things.
I felt worse at 13 than I everhave since.
The way to think about the waythese ideas take up residence in
(10:28):
our heads, and they do in allour heads, is how you think
about how you, or use the wordsold and young.
I don't know a good answer tothat one.
What did you say?
Don Drew (10:37):
I probably gave a number that I felt at the time.
I don't remember exactly.
But I do remember thinking,Okay, I'm making a decision
between do I feel good today,which means I'm gonna pick a
lower number, or do I feel bador sore?
I'm recovering from shouldersurgery a few months ago, So, I
have some good days.
I have bad days.
Some days that arm feels likeit's 90, meaning it feels like
it's gonna fall off and die.
(10:58):
And others it feels like like Idid when I was 30, really
strong.
Somewhere in that range.
And So, that's where my mindgoes immediately.
But also one of the questions Iwanted to ask you about really
is about functionality.
We talk about functionality asbeing something that is binary.
Either we feel functional or wefeel dysfunctional.
And just because one part of usis not operating really well, we
(11:20):
treat the whole person as notdoing well.
This leads to another question.
I've heard you talk about thedifference between age and
capacity, and I think it'srelated to what we're talking
about here, age and capacity.
When you talk about that, whatdo you mean?
Ashton Applewhite (11:32):
Well, a lot of what we think is ageism,
which is stigma, prejudice,discrimination around age is
actually ableism.
Probably the thing most of usfear the most about getting
older is the loss of function.
In particular, I think cognitivefunction.
But it depends.
If you're a pitcher, you betterhope that shoulder keeps
working.
(11:52):
Speaking of how well yourshoulder works.
Your shoulder works a lot betterthan a professional pitcher once
he injures it.
It doesn't ever have to do withage.
It has to do with capacity.
That said, physical capacitydiminishes with age.
That is a fact.
Cognitive decline is notinevitable.
About 20% of the populationescapes it entirely.
(12:15):
We all know some of those 90year olds that are just as quick
to get their words and theirthoughts as they were at 19.
Most of us lose some processingcapacity.
The ability to remember the nameof the movie you saw with what's
her name.
But I'm with young people allthe time and they can't remember
the name of the damn movieeither.
A really big overarching problemhere is the dominant narrative
(12:37):
around aging, well, air quotesthere, is that to age well
really means to not age.
To work really hard.
To look, especially for womenand move, especially for men, as
you did when you were young.
That is not possible.
It's expensive.
It sets us up to compete.
It sets us up to fail.
(12:58):
It's important of course to stayas healthy as you can.
Moving wherever you can isreally important.
I was talking to mysister-in-law who just broke her
wrist and is waiting for surgeryand she said she's been told to
always, for example, put yourclothes on, standing up.
Like you can lean against thewall, but practice your balance.
I've heard you don't wanna getdown on the floor.
(13:19):
These things get harder as weget older.
I'm creakier.
My balance is terrible.
But keep practicing.
It is important to push back.
But it is corrosive and ableistto think that we are only doing
well if we stop the clock.
It's not stoppable.
And you know what?
I'm never gonna be graceful.
I wasn't graceful at 21.
(13:40):
I'm never gonna be an athlete.
I'm good at other things.
to accept the loss of capacitywhen it's inevitable and to push
back where we can, but not tolet it eat away at our sense of
ourselves and our value and ourplace in the world, which is
hard.
David Lowry (13:56):
I think of my dear mother when she was around 88.
She said, David, inside I feellike I did when I was 16.
Mother had this sense ofaliveness and alertness and
wellness and capacity in hermind.
She would've admitted that, Idon't move as fast as I did, and
I've suffered some things, but Iloved her outlook on life.
(14:20):
Not willing to give into you'vegotta feel a certain way, think
a certain way, behave a certainway, accept a certain set of
values.
You have a starter question inone of your discussion groups,,
and I love this question.
What does age, pride mean toyou?
Ashton Applewhite (14:35):
First of all, we each need to feel whatever
the heck we feel, right?
I will complicate thingsimmediately as I tend to do by
saying it annoys me sometimesI'll be somewhere and some
person will stand up and say,I'm a million years old, and
everyone claps.
I don't.
think you get a pedestal justbecause you're old.
I want a world where, in thatsense, age is neutral, right?
(14:57):
That age doesn't make you a morevaluable person or a less
valuable person.
I coined that term age pride,which I use less often now as an
antidote to the shame thisculture wants you to feel.
A tremendous shame for women.
I go to the place where, there'sso much men experience it too,
(15:17):
but so much judgment.
Are you thin enough?
Are you pretty enough?
Are you active enough?
And shame on you if you are not.
Right, because it's your fault.
And it's a personal failing andthat shame is so corrosive and
so destructive.
We're the age we are.
I'm not proud of being 72particularly, but I'm certainly
not embarrassed about it.
(15:38):
I'll admit, happy to tell anyoneabout it.
I would like the saying of it tobe out there just like where I
live or what color my dog is,but not to have people attach a
value to it.
Don Drew (15:49):
I'd love to hear you talk a bit about
intersectionality.
Kimberly Crenshaw crafted thatconcept a few years ago to
describe how different aspectsof identity overlap and shape
our prospects.
How do you see intersectionalityand interplay with ageism?
Ashton Applewhite (16:04):
Thank you for that question, and I'm glad
you're still talking about thisstuff because it's really
important.
And thank you for namingKimberly Crenshaw, to whom we
owe this important idea.
Intersectionality, can sound abit jargony.
Here's what she said.
She said age and gender and raceare all factors, things, that we
(16:25):
use to socially locate people.
I really like that, right?
Every person we know we knowbecause of all these different
aspects of their identity.
The important component aboutwhat Crenshaw did, she was a
lawyer and she had a woman whocame to her and she said, I'm
being discriminated against atwork and it's because I'm black
and it's because I'm a woman.
(16:47):
The law does not likecomplications like that.
They wanna go after one thing.
They like to put a single thingin a single box.
And this woman said, that doesnot reflect my experience.
Kimberly Crenshaw went thedistance and helped people to
see each of us is the product ofa certain set of advantages and
disadvantages.
And you now have the terriblemisfortune of being white men,
(17:11):
which I appreciate you bringingup.
I am sure it is not to say thatyou haven't overcome all sorts
of challenges.
It is saying that in general,being white, and being male are
things that have not made yourlife harder.
Sexism is real.
Misogyny is real.
And being African American,racism is very real.
(17:34):
So, the idea ofintersectionality is to look at
all the aspects of identity,difficulties, and advantages
that each of us bring.
Ideally, we have all sorts ofpeople at the table because when
you have diversity, you havemore experience and more
richness, and you're in aposition to learn more from
(17:54):
people who are different fromyou.
David Lowry (17:56):
If I gave you a magic wand and you could make
this an age-friendly world, whatwould that look like to you?
Ashton Applewhite (18:03):
The answer is unique to each of us, right?
I live in New York.
So, my first thought would beoh, there'd be escalators up and
down all the subway stairsbecause that's my gym.
But my second thought is therebetter not be escalators because
that's my gym.
For someone who is a wheelchairuser?
They want escalators and theyabsolutely should have
escalators.
There is now an elevator at thesubway stop closest to me, which
(18:24):
is wonderful.
An age-friendly world for aworking parent is a world with
affordable childcare so thatperson can afford to pursue job
opportunities.
It's different for each of us.
We also wanna support youngerpeople.
The period of life where mostpeople are the most unhappy is
not old age.
It's midlife because that's whenwe have maximum a child rearing
(18:47):
responsibilities.
You're supposed to be saving forretirement.
You're supposed to be gettingthat career in gear.
You're supposed to be lookingafter your mom and your
neighbors.
And also it's the time of lifewhere you go, oh, I'm probably
not gonna be, become anastronaut or a ballerina, right?
It's a real period of reckoning.
Those things are hard.
I want a world that is better togrow old in.
But I also want a world in whichit's better to be middle aged
(19:10):
and better to be a kid.
I think young people should beable to vote earlier.
So, the answer is completelyabout where each person is in
their life and where they are,materially and what they wanna
do and what the barriers arebetween them and accomplishing
it.
David Lowry (19:25):
Ashton, you are such a delightful person, and
you caught me off guard a littlebit and let me explain what I
mean here.
When Don and I were talkingabout the second half of life I
thought ageism was mostly howare we treating these older
folks?
I love the fact that you'reholding all of us in the second
half of life just as accountablefor how we treat people younger
(19:46):
than us, as well as people ourown age and above.
You are holding us just asresponsible because that's
ageism too, isn't it?
And thank you for bringing thatto my attention.
Ashton Applewhite (19:57):
Thank you for being so open-minded and for not
getting defensive about it.
Older people do experience moreageism, and I think it's
important to acknowledge that.
And older people do have moreexperience, right?
But that doesn't make us morevaluable as human beings, and we
still need to collaborate acrossage gaps.
(20:18):
You know there's this myth ofintergenerational conflict, that
older people are hoardingeverything and don't care about
the world we leave behind.
And that young people wouldthrow us to the wolves in order
to get our houses and ourTupperware.
And there is no evidence thatyounger people don't care about
older people.
And the idea that I don't careabout the world I leave behind,
(20:38):
I can feel myself flushing withanger at that idea.
So, when I talk about ageequity, I'm really talking about
equity across the lifespan.
And I'm so glad because it's asuper powerful idea.
We should care about people nomatter how old they are.
And injustice is injustice.
Don Drew (20:55):
That raises a question in my mind because I've heard
you in your Ted Talk discusshappiness.
Where highest levels ofhappiness are found in the young
and the old and lower in themidlife.
That's lower levels of happinessand so forth, and you challenge
us to rethink that.
But the big question for meanyway, is why are we so
consistent in our culturalbelief that happiness is the
(21:15):
sole domain of the young?
Ashton Applewhite (21:16):
I'm happy that I get to bring up
capitalism.
No one makes money offsatisfaction.
And of course this is not justabout 40-year-old people buying
personal trainers or skin cream.
I read that they are marketingskincare products to kids in
pretend crayon boxes, right?
It's bad.
(21:37):
But if natural transitions arepathologized, like wrinkles is
an easy example.
If that's seen as a terribleproblem that we need to try and
stop or cure, then people makemoney off it.
And also it divides us.
And that is how prejudice works.
Prejudice operates to divide usso we don't join forces and
change the status quo.
(21:58):
And so we keep supporting themulti-billion dollar cosmetics
industry.
PS.
No judgment, especially to womenthere are so many voices out
there telling us what we shouldand shouldn't do, and I am not
one of them.
Aging is complicated and we eachneed to navigate our own path in
our own way.
David Lowry (22:16):
I'm with you on that.
We have to allow people to beauthentic and enjoy the journey
as much as we possibly can.
I love that you're challengingus to be inclusive of all ages
as we do this.
Life is so much fun when we doit together, as opposed to
dividing and conqueringourselves and putting ourselves
into camps, into all of that.
(22:38):
I have a question about yourbook This Chair Rocks: The
Manifesto Against Ageism.
I'm wondering, what legacy doyou hope to leave behind when
you think about this book andthe work that you're doing?
Tell us more about that.
Ashton Applewhite (22:53):
Oh geez.
I have to say when I got thathonor from the United Nations
that I was one of 50 leadersaround the world making it a
better place to grow old, I'mlike, I never set out to do
anything.
I've never had a plan.
I don't like writing.
I like thinking.
I wrote one book before this oneand I was like, thank God I
never have to do that again.
I'm an introvert.
(23:13):
But I do these things, and ofcourse they give me pleasure,
because I think what I'm sayingis really important.
I think dreading our futures isreally corrosive and terrible
for us individually andcollectively.
Again, there are things to beafraid of.
There are real genuine issueshere.
But we are way more afraid thenthe evidence says we should be.
(23:36):
And that fear is bad for usphysically, socially,
cognitively, the works, right?
So, it feels important to spreadthe word and I know that I do
that via my books and my publicspeaking, and that feels really
great.
Don Drew (23:51):
Can you talk about the Old School Hub?
I find that really fascinating.
Ashton Applewhite (23:56):
Thanks.
I spend most of my time sittingalone sweating at my computer.
But gosh, about 10 years ago, Ithought, the movement to end
ageism is new.
And wouldn't it be great if youcould find all the great
resources in one place?
So, I found two fantasticcolleagues and we created what
was then called the Old SchoolClearinghouse.
(24:16):
'Because all it was, was aresource bank.
Then last fall we rebranded asthe Old School Hub because we
wanna raise awareness of ageism,we want to educate people about
how it works and how todismantle it.
And we wanna connect people whoare doing this work.
The website is oldschool dotinfo.
(24:37):
You can find hundreds ofresources all free, except the
books, plus all sorts of othercool stuff.
And we host a weekly Zoom that'sopen to anyone called Office
Hours.
You can find it, go to theevents hub, or they're easy to
find.
We had occasional in-persongatherings and we have a working
group, which we call TheHubsters, to help support
(24:59):
projects that people submit tothe hubs.
So, if you're working to endageism and want some advice or
some support, you can submit itto the hub.
So, that's what it is, and I'mproud of that too.
David Lowry (25:11):
We've been talking with Ashton Applewhite, author
of the book, This Chair Rocks (25:14):
a Manifesto Against Ageism.
Thank you for joining us onPeaceful Life Radio, and we hope
that today's discussion providedyou with some valuable insights
about ageism and aging.
Remember, finding peace in thesecond half of life is about
embracing wisdom, grace and theknowledge that comes from
understanding ourselves and theworld around us.
(25:35):
So, until next time, we hopeyou'll find serenity and joy in
every moment of your life.
This David Lowry, along with DonDrew asking you take care and
stay peaceful.
A really big overarching problem is the
dominant narrative around agingwell, is that to age well really
means to not age.
To work really hard to look,especially for women, and move,
especially for men, as you didwhen you were young.
That is not possible.
It's expensive.
It sets us up to compete.
(00:21):
It sets us up to fail.
David Lowry (00:22):
That was Ashton Applewhite, our guest on today's
podcast.
Welcome everybody to PeacefulLife Radio, where we aim to help
you find peace, wisdom, andgrace in the second half of
life.
I'm David Lowry, your co-host,along with my good buddy, Don
Drew.
Don, how are you today?
Don Drew (00:38):
I'm doing great, David.
David Lowry (00:39):
We have a really special guest and Don, I want
you to introduce her and getstarted in our program.
Don Drew (00:45):
Today we have Ashton Applewhite, a writer and
activist based in Brooklyn, NewYork.
An internationally recognizedexpert on ageism, Ashton is the
author of This Chair Rocks, AManifesto Against Ageism.
Ashton is the co-founder of theOld School Hub, which I imagine
we'll talk a little bit abouttoday.
She speaks widely at venues thathave included the United Nations
(01:08):
and the TED Main Stage, and isat the forefront of the emerging
movement to raise awareness ofageism and make age a criterion
for diversity.
In 2022, the United Nationsnamed Ashton one of the healthy
aging leaders transforming theworld to be a better place in
which to grow older.
Ashton Applewhite, welcome toPeaceful Life Radio.
Ashton Applewhite (01:29):
Thanks for having me.
David Lowry (01:30):
We're so glad you're with us today Ashton.
I want to ask a question youknow all about, Where ageism
comes from and what it does?
Tell us about that.
Ashton Applewhite (01:40):
I'll start with where ageism comes from and
it's all over the place.
So, where does any prejudicecome from?
You could say it comes, and I'mnot an anthropologist or a
paleontologist, but it comesfrom the fact that we are tribal
creatures and tend to associatewith people who are like us.
Age shouldn't set us apart sinceit's an experience that everyone
(02:00):
does have.
And certainly, in the oldendays, if the barbarians were at
the gates and you had to run forit, children with very short
legs and older people who can'tmove so fast are at a
disadvantage, and that isbiology.
But what has happened in thelast a 100, 150 years is there
is a lot more old age than thereused to be, which is of course,
(02:23):
a fantastic accomplishment and atriumph of public health.
But, I'm gonna stick toanswering it about North America
because I'm on thicker icethere.
Urbanization happened and alsothe industrial revolution.
People started moving out ofcountrysides and into the city.
Global capitalization happened.
(02:43):
The march of Global Capital,which meant that we started
valuing people more and moreaccording to how much paid work
they did.
We don't tend to value unpaidwork.
We don't tend to valuecaregiving and all those
important things that of courseare incredibly valuable, but
don't come with a paycheck.
And in the 20th century, thanksto more people surviving
(03:05):
childhood and better publichealth, we started having more
old people.
Because of these forces, agingcame to be conceived of a
problem to be solved.
And that's when retirementcommunities came into being,
which of course are wonderfulfor a lot of older people.
That's when the nursing homecame into being, which are less
wonderful for a lot of olderpeople.
(03:26):
We started to become a much moreage segregated society.
And anytime you havesegregation, if you don't have
contact with people who aredifferent from you, different
religion, different skin color,different anything, it's easier
for stereotypes to take hold.
So, all those things led to anincrease in ageism, which is
stereotyping and prejudice onthe basis of age in the 20th
(03:51):
century and into the 21st aroundthe world.
Don Drew (03:54):
One of your new ideas is to do something called Yoda,
to create an organization youcalled Yoda, which is younger
and older, dismantling ageism.
I think the idea.
Is to bring people together.
Is that true?
Ashton Applewhite (04:08):
That is a complicated idea.
I am delighted that you broughtit up because I'm thinking about
it nonstop.
I'm in the business haha, oftrying to raise awareness of
ageism around the world andhelping more people see what it
is and how we can dismantle it.
And one thing I realized, notthat long ago, was most of the
(04:29):
people in the age equitymovement look like me.
They're older.
A lot of them are white.
A lot of them are women.
Also, a lot of us are privilegedbecause it takes extra time to
be able to afford to become anactivist.
I now make a living at it, butthat's a rarity, believe me.
And I thought, do all agesreally have a voice?
Is this movement going outliveme?
(04:50):
Are we addressing ageism the wayit affects all ages because it
does, right?
We're being ageist when we makeany assumption on the basis of
age.
Older people definitely bear thebrunt because it's a very age
obsessed society.
But anytime you write off ayounger person as ignorant or
whatever name an attribute, youare also being ageist.
(05:14):
So, I'm happy to say that lotsand lots of people, and I'm not
one of'em, I spend most of mytime alone banging my head
against a keyboard.
But lots of organizations areworking to bring older and
younger people together to talkto each other, to work together,
to advance our shared interests,et cetera.
And the Yoda idea for Youngerand Olders, Dismantling Ageism
(05:36):
has nothing to do with Yoda.
Please don't sue me, UniversalPictures.
Is that who owns it?
Is the idea that some of theseconversations need to be about
power?
Where do we have power becauseof our age?
Where do we not have powerbecause of our age?
How is that different for olderand younger people?
How do we use it against eachother, which we do every time we
(05:58):
fall for the myth that theinterests of young people and
old people are inherentlyopposed.
There's no evidence for thatwhatsoever.
But there are real reasons topresent other generations
economic demographic goodfortune.
My kids didn't grow up into 60years of economic prosperity.
It's easier for we elders toforget how hard it is to be
(06:19):
young, and to resent youngpeoples.
That doesn't get us anywhere.
That is what all prejudice does.
It divides us so that wesquabble amongst each other
instead of figuring out what ourcommon goals are and uniting
across those barriers.
So, Yoda is the proposal thatsome of those conversations that
(06:41):
lots of people, much moreskilled than I am, about
facilitating theseconversations, because they're
tricky that some of thoseconversations be explicitly
about power.
David Lowry (06:52):
Yoda is such a beautiful idea.
I also think of Yoda as a verywise being.
So, good luck with all of that.
Ashton Applewhite (07:00):
We like that.
And clearly Yoda is old, butalso I think the character has a
youthful playfulness.
So, I want the choice to read assort of age neutral, if you
will.
David Lowry (07:12):
Ageism is pernicious and one of the things
I've discovered in the pastseveral years it's real.
I'm one of those old white guyspeople talk about.
And one of the things that'staking me aback is people
saying, So, when are you goingto retire?
And I don't think they meananything by it really.
(07:33):
But I find it irritating.
Can you talk about some of theways it's wrapped into our
society and people accept itwithout thinking about it?
Ashton Applewhite (07:40):
These comments about age are called
microaggressions.
They don't make you feel good.
Sometimes people say things withthe best of intent.
You look great for your age.
or calling me a young lady.
It's meant as a compliment.
But all it really does is drawthe attention to the fact that
I'm not a young lady, right?
And even though they might havemeant it as a compliment, and
(08:02):
intention matters, but itdoesn't let you off the hook.
And I think you are totallyjustified in, and feeling like,
oh, why are they saying that?
And I have a handy suggestion, asort of all purpose rejoinder to
when you hear an ageist orsexist or racist comment.
David Lowry (08:23):
I'm ready to hear it.
Ashton Applewhite (08:25):
Well, my daughter, she says, tell me
more.
She does it so gently.
But it's hard.
Sometimes you can make you mador make you feel offended.
And when we put people on thedefense.
We don't get anywhere becausethey think, oh, that person's a
jerk.
But just say, what do you meanby that?
David Lowry (08:39):
Great comment.
Ashton Applewhite (08:40):
Make them think about what they did mean
by it.
This is not a good story, but Iwas in a shop a couple years
ago.
It was summer, it was hot, and Itold her I was going to a dance
party and I needed a shirt.
And she said, with sleeves, Iassume?
I snarl, you kidding?
Its 108 outside?
Not a mature, helpful response.
(09:02):
But why would you think that?
It's hot out.
Don Drew (09:04):
Someone asked me recently, how old do you feel?
And I think that's a reallyloaded question as well, because
if you were to say, well, I feelyounger than I am, then that's a
good thing.
If you say you feel older thatday or whatever, meaning you're
tired or whatever, that's a badthing.
There's a lot of problematiclanguage out there.
David Lowry (09:20):
And they also say why aren't you acting your own
age?
Or something like that.
Like, we've got an assignment todo.
Ashton Applewhite (09:26):
You just did a lot of my work for me on that
one as far as acting your age.
Except for children, there's nosuch thing as age appropriate.
The longer we live, the moredifferent from one another we
become because we age atdifferent rates socially,
cognitively, physically.
I might be in a wheelchair, butbe the sharpest brain in the
room till 105, or so on.
(09:48):
You can't ever tell so thatthere's no such thing as acting
your age, because you're alwaysgonna be able or unable to do
something that someone else yoursame age can or cannot do,
right?
There's all this variety.
But as far as what age do youfeel you hit on the way we use
(10:08):
old and young as placeholders.
As you just said, I feel old.
Well, that usually meanssomething negative, right?
I feel tired, I feelincompetent, I feel useless.
We can feel all those things.
I felt worse at 13 than I everhave since.
The way to think about the waythese ideas take up residence in
(10:28):
our heads, and they do in allour heads, is how you think
about how you, or use the wordsold and young.
I don't know a good answer tothat one.
What did you say?
Don Drew (10:37):
I probably gave a number that I felt at the time.
I don't remember exactly.
But I do remember thinking,Okay, I'm making a decision
between do I feel good today,which means I'm gonna pick a
lower number, or do I feel bador sore?
I'm recovering from shouldersurgery a few months ago, So, I
have some good days.
I have bad days.
Some days that arm feels likeit's 90, meaning it feels like
it's gonna fall off and die.
(10:58):
And others it feels like like Idid when I was 30, really
strong.
Somewhere in that range.
And So, that's where my mindgoes immediately.
But also one of the questions Iwanted to ask you about really
is about functionality.
We talk about functionality asbeing something that is binary.
Either we feel functional or wefeel dysfunctional.
And just because one part of usis not operating really well, we
(11:20):
treat the whole person as notdoing well.
This leads to another question.
I've heard you talk about thedifference between age and
capacity, and I think it'srelated to what we're talking
about here, age and capacity.
When you talk about that, whatdo you mean?
Ashton Applewhite (11:32):
Well, a lot of what we think is ageism,
which is stigma, prejudice,discrimination around age is
actually ableism.
Probably the thing most of usfear the most about getting
older is the loss of function.
In particular, I think cognitivefunction.
But it depends.
If you're a pitcher, you betterhope that shoulder keeps
working.
(11:52):
Speaking of how well yourshoulder works.
Your shoulder works a lot betterthan a professional pitcher once
he injures it.
It doesn't ever have to do withage.
It has to do with capacity.
That said, physical capacitydiminishes with age.
That is a fact.
Cognitive decline is notinevitable.
About 20% of the populationescapes it entirely.
(12:15):
We all know some of those 90year olds that are just as quick
to get their words and theirthoughts as they were at 19.
Most of us lose some processingcapacity.
The ability to remember the nameof the movie you saw with what's
her name.
But I'm with young people allthe time and they can't remember
the name of the damn movieeither.
A really big overarching problemhere is the dominant narrative
(12:37):
around aging, well, air quotesthere, is that to age well
really means to not age.
To work really hard.
To look, especially for womenand move, especially for men, as
you did when you were young.
That is not possible.
It's expensive.
It sets us up to compete.
It sets us up to fail.
(12:58):
It's important of course to stayas healthy as you can.
Moving wherever you can isreally important.
I was talking to mysister-in-law who just broke her
wrist and is waiting for surgeryand she said she's been told to
always, for example, put yourclothes on, standing up.
Like you can lean against thewall, but practice your balance.
I've heard you don't wanna getdown on the floor.
(13:19):
These things get harder as weget older.
I'm creakier.
My balance is terrible.
But keep practicing.
It is important to push back.
But it is corrosive and ableistto think that we are only doing
well if we stop the clock.
It's not stoppable.
And you know what?
I'm never gonna be graceful.
I wasn't graceful at 21.
(13:40):
I'm never gonna be an athlete.
I'm good at other things.
to accept the loss of capacitywhen it's inevitable and to push
back where we can, but not tolet it eat away at our sense of
ourselves and our value and ourplace in the world, which is
hard.
David Lowry (13:56):
I think of my dear mother when she was around 88.
She said, David, inside I feellike I did when I was 16.
Mother had this sense ofaliveness and alertness and
wellness and capacity in hermind.
She would've admitted that, Idon't move as fast as I did, and
I've suffered some things, but Iloved her outlook on life.
(14:20):
Not willing to give into you'vegotta feel a certain way, think
a certain way, behave a certainway, accept a certain set of
values.
You have a starter question inone of your discussion groups,,
and I love this question.
What does age, pride mean toyou?
Ashton Applewhite (14:35):
First of all, we each need to feel whatever
the heck we feel, right?
I will complicate thingsimmediately as I tend to do by
saying it annoys me sometimesI'll be somewhere and some
person will stand up and say,I'm a million years old, and
everyone claps.
I don't.
think you get a pedestal justbecause you're old.
I want a world where, in thatsense, age is neutral, right?
(14:57):
That age doesn't make you a morevaluable person or a less
valuable person.
I coined that term age pride,which I use less often now as an
antidote to the shame thisculture wants you to feel.
A tremendous shame for women.
I go to the place where, there'sso much men experience it too,
(15:17):
but so much judgment.
Are you thin enough?
Are you pretty enough?
Are you active enough?
And shame on you if you are not.
Right, because it's your fault.
And it's a personal failing andthat shame is so corrosive and
so destructive.
We're the age we are.
I'm not proud of being 72particularly, but I'm certainly
not embarrassed about it.
(15:38):
I'll admit, happy to tell anyoneabout it.
I would like the saying of it tobe out there just like where I
live or what color my dog is,but not to have people attach a
value to it.
Don Drew (15:49):
I'd love to hear you talk a bit about
intersectionality.
Kimberly Crenshaw crafted thatconcept a few years ago to
describe how different aspectsof identity overlap and shape
our prospects.
How do you see intersectionalityand interplay with ageism?
Ashton Applewhite (16:04):
Thank you for that question, and I'm glad
you're still talking about thisstuff because it's really
important.
And thank you for namingKimberly Crenshaw, to whom we
owe this important idea.
Intersectionality, can sound abit jargony.
Here's what she said.
She said age and gender and raceare all factors, things, that we
(16:25):
use to socially locate people.
I really like that, right?
Every person we know we knowbecause of all these different
aspects of their identity.
The important component aboutwhat Crenshaw did, she was a
lawyer and she had a woman whocame to her and she said, I'm
being discriminated against atwork and it's because I'm black
and it's because I'm a woman.
(16:47):
The law does not likecomplications like that.
They wanna go after one thing.
They like to put a single thingin a single box.
And this woman said, that doesnot reflect my experience.
Kimberly Crenshaw went thedistance and helped people to
see each of us is the product ofa certain set of advantages and
disadvantages.
And you now have the terriblemisfortune of being white men,
(17:11):
which I appreciate you bringingup.
I am sure it is not to say thatyou haven't overcome all sorts
of challenges.
It is saying that in general,being white, and being male are
things that have not made yourlife harder.
Sexism is real.
Misogyny is real.
And being African American,racism is very real.
(17:34):
So, the idea ofintersectionality is to look at
all the aspects of identity,difficulties, and advantages
that each of us bring.
Ideally, we have all sorts ofpeople at the table because when
you have diversity, you havemore experience and more
richness, and you're in aposition to learn more from
(17:54):
people who are different fromyou.
David Lowry (17:56):
If I gave you a magic wand and you could make
this an age-friendly world, whatwould that look like to you?
Ashton Applewhite (18:03):
The answer is unique to each of us, right?
I live in New York.
So, my first thought would beoh, there'd be escalators up and
down all the subway stairsbecause that's my gym.
But my second thought is therebetter not be escalators because
that's my gym.
For someone who is a wheelchairuser?
They want escalators and theyabsolutely should have
escalators.
There is now an elevator at thesubway stop closest to me, which
(18:24):
is wonderful.
An age-friendly world for aworking parent is a world with
affordable childcare so thatperson can afford to pursue job
opportunities.
It's different for each of us.
We also wanna support youngerpeople.
The period of life where mostpeople are the most unhappy is
not old age.
It's midlife because that's whenwe have maximum a child rearing
(18:47):
responsibilities.
You're supposed to be saving forretirement.
You're supposed to be gettingthat career in gear.
You're supposed to be lookingafter your mom and your
neighbors.
And also it's the time of lifewhere you go, oh, I'm probably
not gonna be, become anastronaut or a ballerina, right?
It's a real period of reckoning.
Those things are hard.
I want a world that is better togrow old in.
But I also want a world in whichit's better to be middle aged
(19:10):
and better to be a kid.
I think young people should beable to vote earlier.
So, the answer is completelyabout where each person is in
their life and where they are,materially and what they wanna
do and what the barriers arebetween them and accomplishing
it.
David Lowry (19:25):
Ashton, you are such a delightful person, and
you caught me off guard a littlebit and let me explain what I
mean here.
When Don and I were talkingabout the second half of life I
thought ageism was mostly howare we treating these older
folks?
I love the fact that you'reholding all of us in the second
half of life just as accountablefor how we treat people younger
(19:46):
than us, as well as people ourown age and above.
You are holding us just asresponsible because that's
ageism too, isn't it?
And thank you for bringing thatto my attention.
Ashton Applewhite (19:57):
Thank you for being so open-minded and for not
getting defensive about it.
Older people do experience moreageism, and I think it's
important to acknowledge that.
And older people do have moreexperience, right?
But that doesn't make us morevaluable as human beings, and we
still need to collaborate acrossage gaps.
(20:18):
You know there's this myth ofintergenerational conflict, that
older people are hoardingeverything and don't care about
the world we leave behind.
And that young people wouldthrow us to the wolves in order
to get our houses and ourTupperware.
And there is no evidence thatyounger people don't care about
older people.
And the idea that I don't careabout the world I leave behind,
(20:38):
I can feel myself flushing withanger at that idea.
So, when I talk about ageequity, I'm really talking about
equity across the lifespan.
And I'm so glad because it's asuper powerful idea.
We should care about people nomatter how old they are.
And injustice is injustice.
Don Drew (20:55):
That raises a question in my mind because I've heard
you in your Ted Talk discusshappiness.
Where highest levels ofhappiness are found in the young
and the old and lower in themidlife.
That's lower levels of happinessand so forth, and you challenge
us to rethink that.
But the big question for meanyway, is why are we so
consistent in our culturalbelief that happiness is the
(21:15):
sole domain of the young?
Ashton Applewhite (21:16):
I'm happy that I get to bring up
capitalism.
No one makes money offsatisfaction.
And of course this is not justabout 40-year-old people buying
personal trainers or skin cream.
I read that they are marketingskincare products to kids in
pretend crayon boxes, right?
It's bad.
(21:37):
But if natural transitions arepathologized, like wrinkles is
an easy example.
If that's seen as a terribleproblem that we need to try and
stop or cure, then people makemoney off it.
And also it divides us.
And that is how prejudice works.
Prejudice operates to divide usso we don't join forces and
change the status quo.
(21:58):
And so we keep supporting themulti-billion dollar cosmetics
industry.
PS.
No judgment, especially to womenthere are so many voices out
there telling us what we shouldand shouldn't do, and I am not
one of them.
Aging is complicated and we eachneed to navigate our own path in
our own way.
David Lowry (22:16):
I'm with you on that.
We have to allow people to beauthentic and enjoy the journey
as much as we possibly can.
I love that you're challengingus to be inclusive of all ages
as we do this.
Life is so much fun when we doit together, as opposed to
dividing and conqueringourselves and putting ourselves
into camps, into all of that.
(22:38):
I have a question about yourbook This Chair Rocks: The
Manifesto Against Ageism.
I'm wondering, what legacy doyou hope to leave behind when
you think about this book andthe work that you're doing?
Tell us more about that.
Ashton Applewhite (22:53):
Oh geez.
I have to say when I got thathonor from the United Nations
that I was one of 50 leadersaround the world making it a
better place to grow old, I'mlike, I never set out to do
anything.
I've never had a plan.
I don't like writing.
I like thinking.
I wrote one book before this oneand I was like, thank God I
never have to do that again.
I'm an introvert.
(23:13):
But I do these things, and ofcourse they give me pleasure,
because I think what I'm sayingis really important.
I think dreading our futures isreally corrosive and terrible
for us individually andcollectively.
Again, there are things to beafraid of.
There are real genuine issueshere.
But we are way more afraid thenthe evidence says we should be.
(23:36):
And that fear is bad for usphysically, socially,
cognitively, the works, right?
So, it feels important to spreadthe word and I know that I do
that via my books and my publicspeaking, and that feels really
great.
Don Drew (23:51):
Can you talk about the Old School Hub?
I find that really fascinating.
Ashton Applewhite (23:56):
Thanks.
I spend most of my time sittingalone sweating at my computer.
But gosh, about 10 years ago, Ithought, the movement to end
ageism is new.
And wouldn't it be great if youcould find all the great
resources in one place?
So, I found two fantasticcolleagues and we created what
was then called the Old SchoolClearinghouse.
(24:16):
'Because all it was, was aresource bank.
Then last fall we rebranded asthe Old School Hub because we
wanna raise awareness of ageism,we want to educate people about
how it works and how todismantle it.
And we wanna connect people whoare doing this work.
The website is oldschool dotinfo.
(24:37):
You can find hundreds ofresources all free, except the
books, plus all sorts of othercool stuff.
And we host a weekly Zoom that'sopen to anyone called Office
Hours.
You can find it, go to theevents hub, or they're easy to
find.
We had occasional in-persongatherings and we have a working
group, which we call TheHubsters, to help support
(24:59):
projects that people submit tothe hubs.
So, if you're working to endageism and want some advice or
some support, you can submit itto the hub.
So, that's what it is, and I'mproud of that too.
David Lowry (25:11):
We've been talking with Ashton Applewhite, author
of the book, This Chair Rocks (25:14):
a Manifesto Against Ageism.
Thank you for joining us onPeaceful Life Radio, and we hope
that today's discussion providedyou with some valuable insights
about ageism and aging.
Remember, finding peace in thesecond half of life is about
embracing wisdom, grace and theknowledge that comes from
understanding ourselves and theworld around us.
(25:35):
So, until next time, we hopeyou'll find serenity and joy in
every moment of your life.
This David Lowry, along with DonDrew asking you take care and
stay peaceful.
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