May 4, 2025 • 29 mins
Conversations on End-of-Life Care with Hospice Nurse Penny
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, host David Lowry and co-host Don Drew welcome special guest Penny Hawkins Smith, widely known on social media as Hospice Nurse Penny. Penny shares her journey into the world of hospice care, starting from her diverse career background and personal battles to becoming a beacon of support for those facing the end of life. They discuss her book 'Influencing Death, Reframing Dying for Better Living,' the intricacies of hospice care, and the misconceptions surrounding it. Penny provides valuable insights into the importance of having conversations about death, the difference between hospice and palliative care, and the critical role hospice plays in ensuring a dignified and supportive end-of-life experience. Tune in to learn more about navigating the difficult yet inevitable process of dying and how hospice care can make a difference.
00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement
00:40 Penny Hawkins Smith: Journey to Hospice Nursing
04:31 Understanding Hospice Care
06:31 The Importance and Misconceptions of Hospice
08:49 Personal Stories and Experiences with Hospice
18:28 Facing Death with Resilience and Courage
25:54 Palliative Care vs. Hospice
26:50 Penny's Social Media and Resources
27:46 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Lowry (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the second half of
(00:02):
life you're listening toPeaceful Life Radio I'm David
Lowry and with me today is mygood buddy Don Drew.
Don Drew (00:08):
Hello, everyone.
Good to be here.
David Lowry (00:10):
Don we have a person I bet you've heard of on
social media.
Don Drew (00:14):
I hear we have a very special guest.
Why don't you go ahead andintroduce her?
David Lowry (00:17):
Those of you who pay attention to social media
have no doubt at one time oranother seen Penny Hawkins
Smith, known as Hospice NursePenny.
And the font of all knowledgewas TikTok for me when I first
ran across your videos, but Ialso find them on YouTube,
instagram, all the social mediaoutlets.
Nurse Penny, welcome to theprogram.
Penny Smith (00:38):
All right.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
David Lowry (00:40):
We're glad you're here and we want to talk about
the book you wrote and hear yourstory about how you came into
this world of hospice work.
I've got the book in front of mecalled Influencing Death,
Reframing Dying for BetterLiving.
Penny, tell me why you wrote thebook and what led you into
hospice?
Penny Smith (00:59):
Well, that's a long story.
So, I wrote the book because Istarted writing stories about
hospice patients and I startedin hospice 20 years ago, I
started writing stories.
I found that my experiences wereamazing and I wanted to document
them and I've always lovedwriting things down.
And I started writing thestories shortly before I learned
(01:21):
of TikTok before the pandemic,probably about 2018 actually.
I found a website that Amazonhad published where you could go
in and write a screenplay and ithad the formatting and
everything in there and I wasreally disappointed with the way
that death and dying and hospicewere portrayed on television in
(01:43):
the movies and I thought, weneed a television show that's
realistic about death and dying.
So, I started putting my storiesin there and kind of developing
what I hope would be selected byAmazon to be a screenplay.
But after about a year or so ofputting things in there, Amazon.
got rid of the website anddidn't do that anymore.
(02:04):
So, I shelved it for a while.
Then I got on TikTok and startedhearing people telling me that I
should write a book.
And once I had, significantamount of followers, I thought,
Hmm, maybe I really should writea book.
And that is how my book came tobe.
It is a memoir.
It's not just a, how to be ahospice patient or what it's
(02:27):
like to be a hospice patient.
It's about my life growing up,what led me to be a hospice
nurse and my experiences workingin hospice and with the dying
that really changed my life.
And that's a good segue into thenext part of your question,
which is what led me to be ahospice nurse.
So, I didn't go to nursingschool until I was 40.
(02:47):
I was getting divorced from mysecond husband and I needed a
career.
I had been a stay at homehomeschooling mom for 10 years.
And prior to that marriage, Ihad been a bartender and
cashier, store stocker and stufflike that.
I didn't really have a career.
So, I wanted to do nursing.
In my earlier life, in mytwenties, had a real rocky
(03:13):
pathway.
I was a drug addict.
I went to jail.
I gave my son to his dad toraise because I wanted to party.
So, as I was choosing the areaof nursing that I wanted to go
into, in the back of my mind,kept thinking, I really want to
do something that I wouldconsider service work.
All nursing is service work.
(03:34):
All nursing is meaningful andimportant.
But I felt like I needed to dosomething above and beyond to
make up for the transgressionsof my youth.
There's lots of layers to this.
You guys are going to get thewhole deal here.
So, I had also had experiencewith hospice because my soon to
be ex husband at the time, hisstepmother had died a year
(03:56):
before on hospice.
And I recognized that what thosenurses were doing really was
service work.
It was just sacred.
And I just thought how that'ssomething I would really be
interested in pursuing becausethat just seems to fit what I'm
trying to achieve.
I also had severe death anxiety.
So, I had a bit of a morbidcuriosity and thought, you know
(04:18):
what, maybe if I do this work,it will help me not be so afraid
of death and dying.
And that did turn out to be thecase, by the way.
So, that's really what led me tobeing a hospice nurse.
Don Drew (04:31):
So, Penny, what is exactly hospice?
Penny Smith (04:35):
Hospice is end of life care.
The hospice is for people whohave a terminal condition with a
life expectancy of six months orless.
Now people can live longer thanthat or shorter than that.
That's why the or less.
And we don't kick people offwhen they hit six months, if
they're still alive, we have arecertification process.
And as long as they still meetthat requirement of six months
(04:58):
or less life expectancy, then wecan keep them on.
Sometimes people stay on for ayear, two years, even three
years.
It is really focused on caringfor people at the end of life.
We provide a lot of education tothe caregivers.
So, we don't do 24 seven care.
We do in some circumstanceswhere there's acute symptom
management need.
(05:19):
But for the most part, peopledie in their own home or
wherever they call home withfamily or hired caregivers.
And we do a lot of educationwith them.
The person is choosing to nolonger receive treatment for
their illness.
So, if they have cancer andthey've been doing chemo, they
have to stop the chemo.
It's really end of life focused.
(05:41):
There's a whole team.
We take care of people throughan interdisciplinary team.
It's very unique from otherhealth care providers.
We have a doctor, we have socialworkers, nurses, chaplains
hospice aides.
We have a lot of volunteers.
It's very, very person centric.
It's very whole person care.
It's not just we're going totreat your disease.
(06:03):
We are treating you as a personwho has this disease that's
going to end your life.
So, it's really, focused aroundmeeting the person's end of life
goals, making sure that they'recomfortable.
Making sure that their family isokay with caring for them.
And then once the person dies,we actually provide grief
support services for the family.
So, our care extends through theperson into their family as
(06:27):
well.
David Lowry (06:28):
So many people are fearful of the hospice process.
Can you talk to us about thisfear of hospice by telling us
why hospice is so necessary inthis day and time?
Penny Smith (06:37):
Well, I'll talk about why it's so necessary
first.
So, it's so necessary becauseallowing people to acknowledge
the end of their life is thebest way for them to have a good
death experience.
When people are not accepting ofthe fact that they're dying, and
that happens a lot if hospice isnot involved, they keep going to
(06:59):
the ER, they keep going to thehospital and then they end up
ultimately dying in thehospital.
And it's just not the best deathexperience to die in the
hospital.
Being at home with your lovedones present is just all the way
around going to be a betterexperience for that person.
Hospice does also keep peopleout of the ER and it keeps them
out of the hospital because nowwe are going to the home and we
(07:22):
are helping provide that care athome so that they don't have to
call 911 and get an ambulancewhen they're dying and waste
that time.
People who have a limited lifeexpectancy want to use their
time for the things that theyenjoy doing.
They want to be with theirfamily and friends.
They want to check off thatbucket list.
They don't want to end up in thehospital, in a clinic waiting
(07:45):
room.
I don't even like sitting in aclinic waiting room and I'm
healthy.
It's just, it feels like a wasteof time.
Right.
And so it helps to facilitatethem using their time more
wisely.
So, that's why it's soimportant.
Also when you're talking aboutwhy people are afraid of
hospice.
It's almost like a viciouscycle.
People are afraid of hospice, sothey don't enroll until the very
(08:06):
last minute, and then they diesoon after that.
And so people equate going onhospice with immediate death.
Or they misunderstand hospice,and they think that you have to
be really close to death to goon hospice, and you don't.
So, they associate hospice withimmediate death.
If I go on hospice, it means I'mgoing to die faster.
This is one of the things wehear the most often.
(08:28):
Like, I'm not ready to go onhospice, I'm not ready to die
yet.
You're going to die with orwithout hospice.
And in fact, studies have shownyou have a better chance of
living longer if you go onhospice.
There are two studies that weredone that prove that if you go
on hospice, you have a betterchance of living longer.
Don Drew (08:49):
Penny, my first wife, Marsha, passed away after being
in hospice for about two months.
And during that time, we hadwhat I would describe as a
really great experience with thenurses.
But there's more to hospice.
We had a woman that came in oncea week that washed hair.
That was part of hospice care.
I remember a chaplain calledjust to check on us and so
(09:09):
forth.
That's all part of hospice aswell.
Is it not?
Penny Smith (09:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
The hospice aid can come once aweek, twice a week.
Sometimes we send them everyday.
The social worker who providesgrief counseling.
They help with figuring outfuneral home arrangements,
financial paperwork.
If somebody is, trying to figureout how to do their advanced
(09:32):
directives.
Social work helps with that.
The chaplain or the spiritualcare advisor or spiritual care
counselor provides spiritualcare to meet people where
they're at with their religiousneeds or their spiritual needs.
And then volunteers.
So, we have to have volunteerswith our program.
It's a requirement from medicarethat we use volunteers.
(09:55):
Oftentimes if somebody doesn'thave a whole lot of family or
friends coming around.
Maybe they're by themselves orthey just want some company.
We can have volunteers that goand put puzzles together with
them, take them to do errands,help clean up around the house.
We had volunteers that helpedpatients who were moving from
(10:15):
one place to another, box up alltheir belongings.
Volunteers can do a number ofthings for patients.
So, yeah, there's so many thingsthat we do for people.
David Lowry (10:25):
So, my knowledge of hospice didn't start until
several family members foundthemselves at the end of life.
And at that point they were sofar along in the process that
the hospital called comfortcare.
But it was really their ownversion of hospice.
And I feel like it would havebeen so helpful if I had known
about this earlier and couldhave given much more
(10:48):
compassionate care.
It was like you mentioned.
You would be sick.
You would go to the hospital.
Maybe you'd get a lot oftransfusions.
You'd be good for, I don't know,four weeks or so.
And then you'd be hurting again.
And then you might go back.
In the case of our stepdaughter,the last year was really
horrendous.
The doctors wouldn't give up.
They would just keep doing onething for her cancer and
another.
And she was in such discomfortand I remember feeling so
(11:12):
frustrated in talking to thedoctor on duty at the final
hospital she was in.
I said, she has stage fourcancer.
It's not going to get better.
We've been here so many times.
Isn't there something we can doto make her comfortable and
peaceful and let her have somedignity here?
And he says, Oh, are you sayingwe should just stop?
(11:32):
And I said, Well, I don't thinkshe's going to get any better.
It was a hopeless situation.
So, I'm going to leave the storythere for just a moment.
Penny, what could we have beendoing instead of this going back
and forth?
Penny Smith (11:46):
Yeah, what she could have been doing is being
at home and having her symptomsmanaged for the optimal.
Comfort at the end of life andhaving her family with her and
having open visiting hours,people could come and go as they
please.
She could have been enjoying thelast bites of food that she
wanted to have instead ofhospital food.
(12:08):
She could have been not beingwoken up in the middle of the
night to get her vital signstaken.
I mean, so, so many things.
And I want to touch on comfortcare versus hospice.
So, comfort care is what thehospital does.
I like that.
It's not the same it's basicallyThey are providing comfort
they're going to usually stopthe vital signs or maybe not do
(12:31):
them as frequently, and they'regoing to be more liberal with
the medications, so that theycan be comfortable that's
comfort care.
Hospice is a whole program, likeit's, that's where you get your
social worker, your spiritualcare counselor, your grief
support after the death of theperson, the nurse who's
visiting, you get so much more,it's an actual program, it's an
insurance.
(12:51):
Benefit is what it is, a hospicebenefit, and so that's really
two different things.
Comfort care is usuallysomething that's done, like,
that's your last ditch effort,you're in the hospital, and now,
like you said, can we stop this?
And I have to say, that is sodistressing to me, because I
know that happens all the time.
And this is why we have peoplewho are referred to hospice so
(13:14):
late, is because our doctors areso reticent to accept the fact
that the person is not going toget better from the treatment
they've been giving to them forhowever long.
And in their defense, they don'tlearn about that in, in medical
school.
They learn to do everything.
They learn to try to savepeople's life or to prevent
(13:35):
illness.
They don't learn about How totake care of somebody who's
dying and it's really sadbecause everybody's going to die
someday But every oncologistwho's treating a cancer patient
should always be saying this isnot your only option Right and
they tend to do that.
They said this is all we can doThis is all we can do and it's
(13:57):
not there's always anotheroption and that is to not do
that treatment and I've had manypatients who regretted doing
that treatment because it didnot only it impacted their life
so negatively because they werehaving to spend so much time in
the hospital.
A lot of times those treatmentsmake them ill or cause them
worse harm in the end than thecancer did.
(14:20):
I know somebody personally whohad colon cancer and one day she
told me I'm not going to diefrom the colon cancer anymore,
I'm going to die from heartfailure because the chemotherapy
ruined her heart.
So, it's sad to me that youactually, as the non medical
professional, had to go to themedical professional and say,
Isn't there something else wecan do?
(14:41):
And their response was, well, Iguess, do you want us to stop?
Like, yeah! Yes! And then again,that was the option he gave you
was, well, do you want us tostop?
He didn't say, do you, would youlike to stop?
We could do hospice instead.
Like.
That was it.
Do you want us to stop?
And somebody else might havesaid, well, I don't know.
(15:01):
What does that mean?
If you stop, then what happened?
You know what I mean?
David Lowry (15:04):
Yes, exactly.
Wow.
Penny Smith (15:07):
So, if they're in the hospital, you can certainly
talk to the hospitalist aboutit, the doctor who's caring for,
but if you're not getting a goodresponse, or if you're getting
somebody who's saying, well, Ithink we should keep doing this,
you can self-refer to hospice.
Anybody can self refer tohospice.
You can call hospice.
You can choose your own hospice.
(15:28):
You do not have to go to the onethat a doctor refers you to.
You get to choose.
My dad was in the hospital witha terminal condition and I was a
hospice nurse for five years.
And I kept going to thehospitalist and saying I'm a
hospice nurse and I need you tolevel with me because things
don't look great right now.
(15:49):
Now this was before palliativecare came along.
So, now we have palliative careand we can talk about that too.
But this was before palliativecare.
And they kept, Oh no, it's fine.
We think it's, we think we knowwhat's going on.
We're going to, we're going totreat with this.
It's going to be fine.
Then he was just not doing well,and I went to them again, and I
said, he's just not doing well.
(16:10):
No, we thought it was this, butit's actually this, and we're
going to treat this instead.
And what it was, waspneumocystis carinii, which is a
fungal infection in the lungs,and my dad had a lung disease,
that was his terminal condition.
So, I did some research on it,and I'm like, oh, okay, well,
people who have a compromisedimmune system, which he did
(16:30):
because they had convinced himto do chemo earlier on They had
like a 50 chance of recoveryfrom this.
So, this is not looking good atall and my dad is not looking
good at all And so again, I goto them like should we be
thinking hospice?
No, no, it's fine.
It's fine.
We got the right, he's going todo fine.
My dad ended up in a BiPAP inthe ICU, which is a machine that
(16:53):
helps him breathe.
I walked into the room and hesaid, well, it's not looking
good.
They think maybe I have a yearleft and they're talking about
hospice.
And I said, well, that doesn'teven make sense because hospice
requires a life expectancy ofsix months or less, not a year.
And my mom just threw her handsup and said, we're so confused.
Can you call the pulmonologist?
(17:13):
So, I called the pulmonologistand I said, is it time for a
hospice consult?
And he said, yes, I believe itis.
If your dad has another eventlike that, he's going to end up
on a ventilator and I don'tthink he wants that.
And I said, I know he doesn'twant that.
So, yes, we need a hospiceconsult.
My dad was on a fluidrestriction.
He was on a diabetic diet, whichhe hated.
(17:36):
My dad was a big guy from theSouth who loved to eat.
He loved his massive ventiStarbucks.
He was so thirsty all the timeand eating terrible diabetic
hospital food.
So, as soon as we got thathospice console, we went out and
we got him a massive plate ofmeat from the Golden Corral.
(17:57):
They call it a meat buffet.
We got him a huge ventiStarbucks.
We all spent a little bit oftime with them.
The plan was to take him homethe next day.
I would be his nurse.
And we were so thankful that wedid all that for him because he
died that night! He was onhospice for less than 12 hours.
I'm a hospice nurse.
I'm pushing these doctors everysingle day and they're pushing
(18:19):
back.
So, you can imagine how hard itis for somebody who's trying to
advocate for their person whenyou've got doctors who think
that they can cure anything.
David Lowry (18:28):
You've seen a lot of people come to their final
moments and one of the thingsthat I hope our program can do
in the second half of life isface this with resilience and
with integrity and with courage.
Tell us some things you thinkcan help us as we come to these
final chapters of our life andthings our caregivers should
(18:50):
know as well.
Penny Smith (18:51):
Definitely what we're doing right now, and that
is having discussions about it,talking about it.
People have a lot of fear arounddying because we don't talk
about it.
It's unknown.
And so anything that we're notfamiliar with is going to be
scary to us.
It's become such a taboo topic.
Nobody wants to talk about it.
So, really, I think that's partof the key to, getting to a
(19:14):
place of acceptance that we areall going to die, because we
absolutely are, is to be able tohave open conversations around
that.
It also will facilitate, closureand goodbyes at the end of life
to be able to do that.
I really always encouragecaregivers not to be afraid to
have conversations with theperson who's dying.
(19:35):
People, when they first are toldthat they're going on hospice,
oftentimes, the knee jerkreaction is to be terrified and
sad.
And that's, understandable,right?
I always say I'm not afraid ofdying, but if I was told that I
was now qualified for hospice, Iwould be like, oh crap, you
know, like, I'd be sad and I'dbe scared because, darn, I don't
(19:58):
want to lead this life yet, Iwant to live as long as I can
just like anybody else.
And when I get that way, by theway, other people are so
uncomfortable with that, withhow they feel.
They want to fix it.
People will come to me in mycomment section and say, look,
this person who has cancer is onTik TOK and they're crying
because they're dying, helpthem.
I'm like, I can't help that.
(20:20):
They have to come to terms withthis on their own.
And it's fair that they feelthat way.
They need to feel that way.
You need to go through thatgrief process.
You're grieving the inevitableend of your life that you're now
faced with.
So, it's important to allowpeople that grief, but also be
there for them when they'rewilling to finally talk about it
(20:41):
because many, many people whoare dying want to talk about
that with their family and thefamily shuts them down or the
person who's dying is afraid ofbumming their family out.
I just talked to somebody theother day who was saying that
their uncle was very close tothem and they were in the
(21:02):
doctor's office together and thedoctor said, it's metastatic
there's no more treatment.
He's going to die from this andhis reaction to hearing this
news about his uncle was just tolose it and to just really cry
and cry and cry.
And from that point on, hisuncle would never acknowledge to
him that he was dying.
(21:24):
And the nephew thinks, he's indenial.
But really what's probablyhappening is the uncle doesn't
want to have to see that painanymore.
And so he's like, let's not talkabout it.
I don't want to talk about thefact that I'm dying.
Or I'm not dying.
I'm not going to die.
I'm going to live forever.
So, it tends to keep the personwho's dying from talking about
it.
So, the number one thing that Itell people whose person is on
(21:47):
hospice is have conversations.
This is your chance to reallytalk about what's important and
most people who are dying wantto know that life had meaning.
That's the most important thing.
David Lowry (21:58):
Tell me more about that.
I'd like to explore that.
Your life had meaning.
Should we talk about the thingsthey did that made a difference
in our life?
Give us some of the things weshould be putting into them at
this time.
Penny Smith (22:10):
Telling them how the presence of them in their
life or in your life has madeyou a better person.
Or changed how you think aboutthings or just enrich your life
in whatever way, to let themknow that they also want to know
that the things that they, thesurvivors of people that they
(22:31):
loved will be okay.
They want to know that they'regoing to be okay.
So, it's funny because when Ifirst started hospice, it used
to always, the focus was on letthem know you'll be okay.
Let them know you'll be okay.
And, as I grew in my knowledgein hospice and work with more
and more people who areprofessionals and kind of
hospice grows too, because I'vebeen a hospice nurse for 20
(22:53):
years we've grown too with howwe look at things.
Things have changed a lot andrealizing that there are more
things than just, they want toknow that their person's going
to be okay.
They want to know that thethings that they cared about are
going to be taken care of it,whether that's.
People, pets, the house thatthey built, that whatever, but
also fundamentally that theirlife had meaning.
(23:15):
We all want to feel at the endof the day, that there was a
whole reason for us to be hereand go through everything that
we went.
David Lowry (23:21):
Could you describe a situation that you've been
through yourself over the yearsthat sticks in your mind of
maybe the ideal way to gothrough this process.
I think we have so few greatexamples of people who leave
this world that can set anexample for now that's the way I
want to go out!
Don Drew (23:39):
Yeah, so somebody who had a good death.
Penny Smith (23:42):
So, one, I remember was a wildlife photographer and
she was at our hospice carecenter.
So, I've worked in hospice carecenters and this is where people
come when they have symptomsthat can't really be managed at
home.
They come into the hospice carecenter.
And her family brought in theseBeautiful pictures that she had
taken in Africa.
(24:03):
They were all framed and theyput them up in the room.
And she would go in there andtell us all about these pictures
that she had.
She was writing her ownobituary.
She said, I'm the only one whocan really tell my story.
And her sons came to visit andone of her sons was a musician
and he had this electrickeyboard and he would put it in
(24:24):
the hallway and play music forher every night.
It was just absolutelybeautiful.
She was so accepting of the endof her life.
She was just like I've had awonderful life and I'm ready to
go.
I had another patient Who hadcancer when she was a child and
her leg was amputated.
She lived to be in her fortiesand had so many friends and they
(24:47):
were visiting all the time andit was just so wonderful.
She would reminisce with herfriends and she didn't want to
be in a hospital bed.
It's always important to thehospice nurse to get a hospital
bed in the house, even if it'snot something they're going to
sleep in all the time, becausepeople don't usually die really
fast.
They don't just drop dead.
(25:07):
They go through a dying processand part of that time they're
going to be unresponsive and youhave to care for them.
So, if they're in a regular bed,it's really hard to do that.
So, I convinced her to get ahospital bed and she put it in
the living room.
And she said, well, I'm going todie in my own bed, but I'm
willing to have this hospitalbed.
So, during the day.
I can be in the hospital bed.
(25:28):
She went through photo albumswith her sister, and she picked
out the photos that she wantedfor her memorial.
And then when the time came, shemade it to the hospital bed, and
she died in her hospital bed inher husband's arms.
David Lowry (25:41):
That is a love story right there.
I wish our listeners could seePenny as we do and see your face
as you tell these stories ofthese beautiful people you've
known and their last moments inpassing.
Penny Smith (25:54):
I do want to circle back for a minute on the
palliative care and hospicebecause I did bring that up.
So, palliative care, some peoplethink of it as a stepping stone
to hospice.
Palliative care providers don'tnecessarily look at it that way.
But palliative care is forpeople who have a life limiting
disease or a terminal conditionwith any life expectancy, and
(26:14):
that is when they are going tostart focusing on more symptom
management.
So, again, they're looking atthe whole person, not just
treating the disease.
The oncologist is there to treatthe cancer.
Palliative care helps todetermine if there are other
things that are going to help toenrich that person's life and
make that better for them.
And then from palliative care,oftentimes people end up
(26:36):
transitioning into hospice.
The big difference is that withpalliative care, you can
continue the treatment for yourdisease hospice.
You have to stop it.
And hospice does go to people'shomes where palliative care is
really more clinic based orhospital based.
Don Drew (26:50):
Penny, you've written a book and you have a podcast
and I think a number of othersocial media things going on out
there.
Can you tell us what all you'vegot going on?
Penny Smith (26:59):
I am on all the socials facebook, YouTube,
Instagram, and TikTokHospiceNursePenny.
I also have a website,HospiceNursePenny.
com.
I have resources on my website,including an interview guide.
So, if you're calling a hospiceand you want to ask questions
about things that you might wantfrom that agency that can help
guide that.
(27:20):
My podcast is called DeathHappens: An Insider's Guide to
Dying.
I do that with my partner, who'sa hospice social worker.
And that can be found whereverpods are on tube as well.
And then my book InfluencingDeath, Reframing Dying for
Better Living can be foundanywhere books are sold.
online.
There's an audio version.
I did create that myself.
(27:42):
And then links for that are alsoin my website.
My website has all thatinformation.
Don Drew (27:46):
Nurse Penny, thank you very much for being with us
today.
This has just been a greatconversation.
And to our listeners, we hopeyou were able to find perhaps
some comfort and ideas thatmight make your life better.
Thank you for joining us todayon Peaceful Life Radio.
Hello everyone and welcome to the second half of
(00:02):
life you're listening toPeaceful Life Radio I'm David
Lowry and with me today is mygood buddy Don Drew.
Don Drew (00:08):
Hello, everyone.
Good to be here.
David Lowry (00:10):
Don we have a person I bet you've heard of on
social media.
Don Drew (00:14):
I hear we have a very special guest.
Why don't you go ahead andintroduce her?
David Lowry (00:17):
Those of you who pay attention to social media
have no doubt at one time oranother seen Penny Hawkins
Smith, known as Hospice NursePenny.
And the font of all knowledgewas TikTok for me when I first
ran across your videos, but Ialso find them on YouTube,
instagram, all the social mediaoutlets.
Nurse Penny, welcome to theprogram.
Penny Smith (00:38):
All right.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
David Lowry (00:40):
We're glad you're here and we want to talk about
the book you wrote and hear yourstory about how you came into
this world of hospice work.
I've got the book in front of mecalled Influencing Death,
Reframing Dying for BetterLiving.
Penny, tell me why you wrote thebook and what led you into
hospice?
Penny Smith (00:59):
Well, that's a long story.
So, I wrote the book because Istarted writing stories about
hospice patients and I startedin hospice 20 years ago, I
started writing stories.
I found that my experiences wereamazing and I wanted to document
them and I've always lovedwriting things down.
And I started writing thestories shortly before I learned
(01:21):
of TikTok before the pandemic,probably about 2018 actually.
I found a website that Amazonhad published where you could go
in and write a screenplay and ithad the formatting and
everything in there and I wasreally disappointed with the way
that death and dying and hospicewere portrayed on television in
(01:43):
the movies and I thought, weneed a television show that's
realistic about death and dying.
So, I started putting my storiesin there and kind of developing
what I hope would be selected byAmazon to be a screenplay.
But after about a year or so ofputting things in there, Amazon.
got rid of the website anddidn't do that anymore.
(02:04):
So, I shelved it for a while.
Then I got on TikTok and startedhearing people telling me that I
should write a book.
And once I had, significantamount of followers, I thought,
Hmm, maybe I really should writea book.
And that is how my book came tobe.
It is a memoir.
It's not just a, how to be ahospice patient or what it's
(02:27):
like to be a hospice patient.
It's about my life growing up,what led me to be a hospice
nurse and my experiences workingin hospice and with the dying
that really changed my life.
And that's a good segue into thenext part of your question,
which is what led me to be ahospice nurse.
So, I didn't go to nursingschool until I was 40.
(02:47):
I was getting divorced from mysecond husband and I needed a
career.
I had been a stay at homehomeschooling mom for 10 years.
And prior to that marriage, Ihad been a bartender and
cashier, store stocker and stufflike that.
I didn't really have a career.
So, I wanted to do nursing.
In my earlier life, in mytwenties, had a real rocky
(03:13):
pathway.
I was a drug addict.
I went to jail.
I gave my son to his dad toraise because I wanted to party.
So, as I was choosing the areaof nursing that I wanted to go
into, in the back of my mind,kept thinking, I really want to
do something that I wouldconsider service work.
All nursing is service work.
(03:34):
All nursing is meaningful andimportant.
But I felt like I needed to dosomething above and beyond to
make up for the transgressionsof my youth.
There's lots of layers to this.
You guys are going to get thewhole deal here.
So, I had also had experiencewith hospice because my soon to
be ex husband at the time, hisstepmother had died a year
(03:56):
before on hospice.
And I recognized that what thosenurses were doing really was
service work.
It was just sacred.
And I just thought how that'ssomething I would really be
interested in pursuing becausethat just seems to fit what I'm
trying to achieve.
I also had severe death anxiety.
So, I had a bit of a morbidcuriosity and thought, you know
(04:18):
what, maybe if I do this work,it will help me not be so afraid
of death and dying.
And that did turn out to be thecase, by the way.
So, that's really what led me tobeing a hospice nurse.
Don Drew (04:31):
So, Penny, what is exactly hospice?
Penny Smith (04:35):
Hospice is end of life care.
The hospice is for people whohave a terminal condition with a
life expectancy of six months orless.
Now people can live longer thanthat or shorter than that.
That's why the or less.
And we don't kick people offwhen they hit six months, if
they're still alive, we have arecertification process.
And as long as they still meetthat requirement of six months
(04:58):
or less life expectancy, then wecan keep them on.
Sometimes people stay on for ayear, two years, even three
years.
It is really focused on caringfor people at the end of life.
We provide a lot of education tothe caregivers.
So, we don't do 24 seven care.
We do in some circumstanceswhere there's acute symptom
management need.
(05:19):
But for the most part, peopledie in their own home or
wherever they call home withfamily or hired caregivers.
And we do a lot of educationwith them.
The person is choosing to nolonger receive treatment for
their illness.
So, if they have cancer andthey've been doing chemo, they
have to stop the chemo.
It's really end of life focused.
(05:41):
There's a whole team.
We take care of people throughan interdisciplinary team.
It's very unique from otherhealth care providers.
We have a doctor, we have socialworkers, nurses, chaplains
hospice aides.
We have a lot of volunteers.
It's very, very person centric.
It's very whole person care.
It's not just we're going totreat your disease.
(06:03):
We are treating you as a personwho has this disease that's
going to end your life.
So, it's really, focused aroundmeeting the person's end of life
goals, making sure that they'recomfortable.
Making sure that their family isokay with caring for them.
And then once the person dies,we actually provide grief
support services for the family.
So, our care extends through theperson into their family as
(06:27):
well.
David Lowry (06:28):
So many people are fearful of the hospice process.
Can you talk to us about thisfear of hospice by telling us
why hospice is so necessary inthis day and time?
Penny Smith (06:37):
Well, I'll talk about why it's so necessary
first.
So, it's so necessary becauseallowing people to acknowledge
the end of their life is thebest way for them to have a good
death experience.
When people are not accepting ofthe fact that they're dying, and
that happens a lot if hospice isnot involved, they keep going to
(06:59):
the ER, they keep going to thehospital and then they end up
ultimately dying in thehospital.
And it's just not the best deathexperience to die in the
hospital.
Being at home with your lovedones present is just all the way
around going to be a betterexperience for that person.
Hospice does also keep peopleout of the ER and it keeps them
out of the hospital because nowwe are going to the home and we
(07:22):
are helping provide that care athome so that they don't have to
call 911 and get an ambulancewhen they're dying and waste
that time.
People who have a limited lifeexpectancy want to use their
time for the things that theyenjoy doing.
They want to be with theirfamily and friends.
They want to check off thatbucket list.
They don't want to end up in thehospital, in a clinic waiting
(07:45):
room.
I don't even like sitting in aclinic waiting room and I'm
healthy.
It's just, it feels like a wasteof time.
Right.
And so it helps to facilitatethem using their time more
wisely.
So, that's why it's soimportant.
Also when you're talking aboutwhy people are afraid of
hospice.
It's almost like a viciouscycle.
People are afraid of hospice, sothey don't enroll until the very
(08:06):
last minute, and then they diesoon after that.
And so people equate going onhospice with immediate death.
Or they misunderstand hospice,and they think that you have to
be really close to death to goon hospice, and you don't.
So, they associate hospice withimmediate death.
If I go on hospice, it means I'mgoing to die faster.
This is one of the things wehear the most often.
(08:28):
Like, I'm not ready to go onhospice, I'm not ready to die
yet.
You're going to die with orwithout hospice.
And in fact, studies have shownyou have a better chance of
living longer if you go onhospice.
There are two studies that weredone that prove that if you go
on hospice, you have a betterchance of living longer.
Don Drew (08:49):
Penny, my first wife, Marsha, passed away after being
in hospice for about two months.
And during that time, we hadwhat I would describe as a
really great experience with thenurses.
But there's more to hospice.
We had a woman that came in oncea week that washed hair.
That was part of hospice care.
I remember a chaplain calledjust to check on us and so
(09:09):
forth.
That's all part of hospice aswell.
Is it not?
Penny Smith (09:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
The hospice aid can come once aweek, twice a week.
Sometimes we send them everyday.
The social worker who providesgrief counseling.
They help with figuring outfuneral home arrangements,
financial paperwork.
If somebody is, trying to figureout how to do their advanced
(09:32):
directives.
Social work helps with that.
The chaplain or the spiritualcare advisor or spiritual care
counselor provides spiritualcare to meet people where
they're at with their religiousneeds or their spiritual needs.
And then volunteers.
So, we have to have volunteerswith our program.
It's a requirement from medicarethat we use volunteers.
(09:55):
Oftentimes if somebody doesn'thave a whole lot of family or
friends coming around.
Maybe they're by themselves orthey just want some company.
We can have volunteers that goand put puzzles together with
them, take them to do errands,help clean up around the house.
We had volunteers that helpedpatients who were moving from
(10:15):
one place to another, box up alltheir belongings.
Volunteers can do a number ofthings for patients.
So, yeah, there's so many thingsthat we do for people.
David Lowry (10:25):
So, my knowledge of hospice didn't start until
several family members foundthemselves at the end of life.
And at that point they were sofar along in the process that
the hospital called comfortcare.
But it was really their ownversion of hospice.
And I feel like it would havebeen so helpful if I had known
about this earlier and couldhave given much more
(10:48):
compassionate care.
It was like you mentioned.
You would be sick.
You would go to the hospital.
Maybe you'd get a lot oftransfusions.
You'd be good for, I don't know,four weeks or so.
And then you'd be hurting again.
And then you might go back.
In the case of our stepdaughter,the last year was really
horrendous.
The doctors wouldn't give up.
They would just keep doing onething for her cancer and
another.
And she was in such discomfortand I remember feeling so
(11:12):
frustrated in talking to thedoctor on duty at the final
hospital she was in.
I said, she has stage fourcancer.
It's not going to get better.
We've been here so many times.
Isn't there something we can doto make her comfortable and
peaceful and let her have somedignity here?
And he says, Oh, are you sayingwe should just stop?
(11:32):
And I said, Well, I don't thinkshe's going to get any better.
It was a hopeless situation.
So, I'm going to leave the storythere for just a moment.
Penny, what could we have beendoing instead of this going back
and forth?
Penny Smith (11:46):
Yeah, what she could have been doing is being
at home and having her symptomsmanaged for the optimal.
Comfort at the end of life andhaving her family with her and
having open visiting hours,people could come and go as they
please.
She could have been enjoying thelast bites of food that she
wanted to have instead ofhospital food.
(12:08):
She could have been not beingwoken up in the middle of the
night to get her vital signstaken.
I mean, so, so many things.
And I want to touch on comfortcare versus hospice.
So, comfort care is what thehospital does.
I like that.
It's not the same it's basicallyThey are providing comfort
they're going to usually stopthe vital signs or maybe not do
(12:31):
them as frequently, and they'regoing to be more liberal with
the medications, so that theycan be comfortable that's
comfort care.
Hospice is a whole program, likeit's, that's where you get your
social worker, your spiritualcare counselor, your grief
support after the death of theperson, the nurse who's
visiting, you get so much more,it's an actual program, it's an
insurance.
(12:51):
Benefit is what it is, a hospicebenefit, and so that's really
two different things.
Comfort care is usuallysomething that's done, like,
that's your last ditch effort,you're in the hospital, and now,
like you said, can we stop this?
And I have to say, that is sodistressing to me, because I
know that happens all the time.
And this is why we have peoplewho are referred to hospice so
(13:14):
late, is because our doctors areso reticent to accept the fact
that the person is not going toget better from the treatment
they've been giving to them forhowever long.
And in their defense, they don'tlearn about that in, in medical
school.
They learn to do everything.
They learn to try to savepeople's life or to prevent
(13:35):
illness.
They don't learn about How totake care of somebody who's
dying and it's really sadbecause everybody's going to die
someday But every oncologistwho's treating a cancer patient
should always be saying this isnot your only option Right and
they tend to do that.
They said this is all we can doThis is all we can do and it's
(13:57):
not there's always anotheroption and that is to not do
that treatment and I've had manypatients who regretted doing
that treatment because it didnot only it impacted their life
so negatively because they werehaving to spend so much time in
the hospital.
A lot of times those treatmentsmake them ill or cause them
worse harm in the end than thecancer did.
(14:20):
I know somebody personally whohad colon cancer and one day she
told me I'm not going to diefrom the colon cancer anymore,
I'm going to die from heartfailure because the chemotherapy
ruined her heart.
So, it's sad to me that youactually, as the non medical
professional, had to go to themedical professional and say,
Isn't there something else wecan do?
(14:41):
And their response was, well, Iguess, do you want us to stop?
Like, yeah! Yes! And then again,that was the option he gave you
was, well, do you want us tostop?
He didn't say, do you, would youlike to stop?
We could do hospice instead.
Like.
That was it.
Do you want us to stop?
And somebody else might havesaid, well, I don't know.
(15:01):
What does that mean?
If you stop, then what happened?
You know what I mean?
David Lowry (15:04):
Yes, exactly.
Wow.
Penny Smith (15:07):
So, if they're in the hospital, you can certainly
talk to the hospitalist aboutit, the doctor who's caring for,
but if you're not getting a goodresponse, or if you're getting
somebody who's saying, well, Ithink we should keep doing this,
you can self-refer to hospice.
Anybody can self refer tohospice.
You can call hospice.
You can choose your own hospice.
(15:28):
You do not have to go to the onethat a doctor refers you to.
You get to choose.
My dad was in the hospital witha terminal condition and I was a
hospice nurse for five years.
And I kept going to thehospitalist and saying I'm a
hospice nurse and I need you tolevel with me because things
don't look great right now.
(15:49):
Now this was before palliativecare came along.
So, now we have palliative careand we can talk about that too.
But this was before palliativecare.
And they kept, Oh no, it's fine.
We think it's, we think we knowwhat's going on.
We're going to, we're going totreat with this.
It's going to be fine.
Then he was just not doing well,and I went to them again, and I
said, he's just not doing well.
(16:10):
No, we thought it was this, butit's actually this, and we're
going to treat this instead.
And what it was, waspneumocystis carinii, which is a
fungal infection in the lungs,and my dad had a lung disease,
that was his terminal condition.
So, I did some research on it,and I'm like, oh, okay, well,
people who have a compromisedimmune system, which he did
(16:30):
because they had convinced himto do chemo earlier on They had
like a 50 chance of recoveryfrom this.
So, this is not looking good atall and my dad is not looking
good at all And so again, I goto them like should we be
thinking hospice?
No, no, it's fine.
It's fine.
We got the right, he's going todo fine.
My dad ended up in a BiPAP inthe ICU, which is a machine that
(16:53):
helps him breathe.
I walked into the room and hesaid, well, it's not looking
good.
They think maybe I have a yearleft and they're talking about
hospice.
And I said, well, that doesn'teven make sense because hospice
requires a life expectancy ofsix months or less, not a year.
And my mom just threw her handsup and said, we're so confused.
Can you call the pulmonologist?
(17:13):
So, I called the pulmonologistand I said, is it time for a
hospice consult?
And he said, yes, I believe itis.
If your dad has another eventlike that, he's going to end up
on a ventilator and I don'tthink he wants that.
And I said, I know he doesn'twant that.
So, yes, we need a hospiceconsult.
My dad was on a fluidrestriction.
He was on a diabetic diet, whichhe hated.
(17:36):
My dad was a big guy from theSouth who loved to eat.
He loved his massive ventiStarbucks.
He was so thirsty all the timeand eating terrible diabetic
hospital food.
So, as soon as we got thathospice console, we went out and
we got him a massive plate ofmeat from the Golden Corral.
(17:57):
They call it a meat buffet.
We got him a huge ventiStarbucks.
We all spent a little bit oftime with them.
The plan was to take him homethe next day.
I would be his nurse.
And we were so thankful that wedid all that for him because he
died that night! He was onhospice for less than 12 hours.
I'm a hospice nurse.
I'm pushing these doctors everysingle day and they're pushing
(18:19):
back.
So, you can imagine how hard itis for somebody who's trying to
advocate for their person whenyou've got doctors who think
that they can cure anything.
David Lowry (18:28):
You've seen a lot of people come to their final
moments and one of the thingsthat I hope our program can do
in the second half of life isface this with resilience and
with integrity and with courage.
Tell us some things you thinkcan help us as we come to these
final chapters of our life andthings our caregivers should
(18:50):
know as well.
Penny Smith (18:51):
Definitely what we're doing right now, and that
is having discussions about it,talking about it.
People have a lot of fear arounddying because we don't talk
about it.
It's unknown.
And so anything that we're notfamiliar with is going to be
scary to us.
It's become such a taboo topic.
Nobody wants to talk about it.
So, really, I think that's partof the key to, getting to a
(19:14):
place of acceptance that we areall going to die, because we
absolutely are, is to be able tohave open conversations around
that.
It also will facilitate, closureand goodbyes at the end of life
to be able to do that.
I really always encouragecaregivers not to be afraid to
have conversations with theperson who's dying.
(19:35):
People, when they first are toldthat they're going on hospice,
oftentimes, the knee jerkreaction is to be terrified and
sad.
And that's, understandable,right?
I always say I'm not afraid ofdying, but if I was told that I
was now qualified for hospice, Iwould be like, oh crap, you
know, like, I'd be sad and I'dbe scared because, darn, I don't
(19:58):
want to lead this life yet, Iwant to live as long as I can
just like anybody else.
And when I get that way, by theway, other people are so
uncomfortable with that, withhow they feel.
They want to fix it.
People will come to me in mycomment section and say, look,
this person who has cancer is onTik TOK and they're crying
because they're dying, helpthem.
I'm like, I can't help that.
(20:20):
They have to come to terms withthis on their own.
And it's fair that they feelthat way.
They need to feel that way.
You need to go through thatgrief process.
You're grieving the inevitableend of your life that you're now
faced with.
So, it's important to allowpeople that grief, but also be
there for them when they'rewilling to finally talk about it
(20:41):
because many, many people whoare dying want to talk about
that with their family and thefamily shuts them down or the
person who's dying is afraid ofbumming their family out.
I just talked to somebody theother day who was saying that
their uncle was very close tothem and they were in the
(21:02):
doctor's office together and thedoctor said, it's metastatic
there's no more treatment.
He's going to die from this andhis reaction to hearing this
news about his uncle was just tolose it and to just really cry
and cry and cry.
And from that point on, hisuncle would never acknowledge to
him that he was dying.
(21:24):
And the nephew thinks, he's indenial.
But really what's probablyhappening is the uncle doesn't
want to have to see that painanymore.
And so he's like, let's not talkabout it.
I don't want to talk about thefact that I'm dying.
Or I'm not dying.
I'm not going to die.
I'm going to live forever.
So, it tends to keep the personwho's dying from talking about
it.
So, the number one thing that Itell people whose person is on
(21:47):
hospice is have conversations.
This is your chance to reallytalk about what's important and
most people who are dying wantto know that life had meaning.
That's the most important thing.
David Lowry (21:58):
Tell me more about that.
I'd like to explore that.
Your life had meaning.
Should we talk about the thingsthey did that made a difference
in our life?
Give us some of the things weshould be putting into them at
this time.
Penny Smith (22:10):
Telling them how the presence of them in their
life or in your life has madeyou a better person.
Or changed how you think aboutthings or just enrich your life
in whatever way, to let themknow that they also want to know
that the things that they, thesurvivors of people that they
(22:31):
loved will be okay.
They want to know that they'regoing to be okay.
So, it's funny because when Ifirst started hospice, it used
to always, the focus was on letthem know you'll be okay.
Let them know you'll be okay.
And, as I grew in my knowledgein hospice and work with more
and more people who areprofessionals and kind of
hospice grows too, because I'vebeen a hospice nurse for 20
(22:53):
years we've grown too with howwe look at things.
Things have changed a lot andrealizing that there are more
things than just, they want toknow that their person's going
to be okay.
They want to know that thethings that they cared about are
going to be taken care of it,whether that's.
People, pets, the house thatthey built, that whatever, but
also fundamentally that theirlife had meaning.
(23:15):
We all want to feel at the endof the day, that there was a
whole reason for us to be hereand go through everything that
we went.
David Lowry (23:21):
Could you describe a situation that you've been
through yourself over the yearsthat sticks in your mind of
maybe the ideal way to gothrough this process.
I think we have so few greatexamples of people who leave
this world that can set anexample for now that's the way I
want to go out!
Don Drew (23:39):
Yeah, so somebody who had a good death.
Penny Smith (23:42):
So, one, I remember was a wildlife photographer and
she was at our hospice carecenter.
So, I've worked in hospice carecenters and this is where people
come when they have symptomsthat can't really be managed at
home.
They come into the hospice carecenter.
And her family brought in theseBeautiful pictures that she had
taken in Africa.
(24:03):
They were all framed and theyput them up in the room.
And she would go in there andtell us all about these pictures
that she had.
She was writing her ownobituary.
She said, I'm the only one whocan really tell my story.
And her sons came to visit andone of her sons was a musician
and he had this electrickeyboard and he would put it in
(24:24):
the hallway and play music forher every night.
It was just absolutelybeautiful.
She was so accepting of the endof her life.
She was just like I've had awonderful life and I'm ready to
go.
I had another patient Who hadcancer when she was a child and
her leg was amputated.
She lived to be in her fortiesand had so many friends and they
(24:47):
were visiting all the time andit was just so wonderful.
She would reminisce with herfriends and she didn't want to
be in a hospital bed.
It's always important to thehospice nurse to get a hospital
bed in the house, even if it'snot something they're going to
sleep in all the time, becausepeople don't usually die really
fast.
They don't just drop dead.
(25:07):
They go through a dying processand part of that time they're
going to be unresponsive and youhave to care for them.
So, if they're in a regular bed,it's really hard to do that.
So, I convinced her to get ahospital bed and she put it in
the living room.
And she said, well, I'm going todie in my own bed, but I'm
willing to have this hospitalbed.
So, during the day.
I can be in the hospital bed.
(25:28):
She went through photo albumswith her sister, and she picked
out the photos that she wantedfor her memorial.
And then when the time came, shemade it to the hospital bed, and
she died in her hospital bed inher husband's arms.
David Lowry (25:41):
That is a love story right there.
I wish our listeners could seePenny as we do and see your face
as you tell these stories ofthese beautiful people you've
known and their last moments inpassing.
Penny Smith (25:54):
I do want to circle back for a minute on the
palliative care and hospicebecause I did bring that up.
So, palliative care, some peoplethink of it as a stepping stone
to hospice.
Palliative care providers don'tnecessarily look at it that way.
But palliative care is forpeople who have a life limiting
disease or a terminal conditionwith any life expectancy, and
(26:14):
that is when they are going tostart focusing on more symptom
management.
So, again, they're looking atthe whole person, not just
treating the disease.
The oncologist is there to treatthe cancer.
Palliative care helps todetermine if there are other
things that are going to help toenrich that person's life and
make that better for them.
And then from palliative care,oftentimes people end up
(26:36):
transitioning into hospice.
The big difference is that withpalliative care, you can
continue the treatment for yourdisease hospice.
You have to stop it.
And hospice does go to people'shomes where palliative care is
really more clinic based orhospital based.
Don Drew (26:50):
Penny, you've written a book and you have a podcast
and I think a number of othersocial media things going on out
there.
Can you tell us what all you'vegot going on?
Penny Smith (26:59):
I am on all the socials facebook, YouTube,
Instagram, and TikTokHospiceNursePenny.
I also have a website,HospiceNursePenny.
com.
I have resources on my website,including an interview guide.
So, if you're calling a hospiceand you want to ask questions
about things that you might wantfrom that agency that can help
guide that.
(27:20):
My podcast is called DeathHappens: An Insider's Guide to
Dying.
I do that with my partner, who'sa hospice social worker.
And that can be found whereverpods are on tube as well.
And then my book InfluencingDeath, Reframing Dying for
Better Living can be foundanywhere books are sold.
online.
There's an audio version.
I did create that myself.
(27:42):
And then links for that are alsoin my website.
My website has all thatinformation.
Don Drew (27:46):
Nurse Penny, thank you very much for being with us
today.
This has just been a greatconversation.
And to our listeners, we hopeyou were able to find perhaps
some comfort and ideas thatmight make your life better.
Thank you for joining us todayon Peaceful Life Radio.
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