May 11, 2025 • 26 mins
Love Over Religion: Dr. Thomas Oord's Journey Through Faith and Belief
Join us on this episode of Peaceful Life Radio as we delve into an enlightening conversation with Dr. Thomas J. Oord, a theologian, scholar, and author. Dr. Oord discusses his evolution from a traditional evangelical upbringing to his current stance on open and relational theology, emphasizing love as the cornerstone of his life. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Dr. Oord explores faith, belief systems, and the complexities of spiritual development. Tune in for a thought-provoking dialogue about love, spirituality, and navigating the challenges of shifting beliefs.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:31 Dr. Oord's Personal Journey
02:35 Stages of Spiritual Development
05:32 Challenges and Changes in Faith
06:58 Navigating Differences and Acceptance
09:21 Big Questions and Rethinking God
12:37 Spirituality vs. Religion
22:39 Love and Legacy
24:26 Conclusion and Farewell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Oord (00:00):
I'm a lover first and a member of Christianity second,
(00:04):
as important as Christianbeliefs are to me.
Because in my way of thinking,love is greater than any
religion.
I am first and foremostcommitted to live a life of
love.
And that orients the way I thinkabout my days and my life and my
career and my family, and how Ithink about the current
(00:25):
political administration and allkinds of things.
I think I'd be willing to diefor love as well.
David Lowry (00:31):
That was Dr.
Thomas J Oord, our guest todayon Peaceful Life Radio.
Welcome everybody.
This is David Lowry, and I'mhere with my co-host Don Drew.
Don, how are you today?
Don Drew (00:42):
I'm doing great, David.
David Lowry (00:43):
We're thrilled to have Dr.
Thomas Oord as our guest.
Dr.
Oord is a theologian, scholar,and an author who has profound
insights having to do withfaith, shifting beliefs, and
navigating challenges to hisfaith.
Don, tell us more about Thomas,your personal friend?
Don Drew (00:59):
Well, his personal journey of confronting shifting
beliefs and navigatingchallenges within his faith
background offers some valuablelessons for anyone reflecting on
their own spiritual path.
Together we'll explore questionsof faith, belief systems, and
how to approach moments ofchange with openness and
authenticity.
Whether you're firm in your longheld beliefs or wrestling with
(01:19):
new perspectives, thisconversation promises to be
thought provoking andmeaningful.
So, let's dive in.
Welcome, Tom.
Tom Oord (01:26):
Looking forward to this conversation with you two.
Don Drew (01:28):
Great.
I got a question for you.
Can you share about yourpersonal journey and how your
beliefs have evolved over time?
Tom Oord (01:36):
My beliefs seem to be always in process.
Every time I think I've come toa place where they're all
settled, something else emergesand it turns out that I don't
know God after all.
I don't know life after all, asif I had it all figured out..
So, I think it'd be safe to saythat I'm always on a journey.
I'm not certain about too much,but my faith has shifted from
(02:02):
growing up as a committedevangelical in a traditional
country church to today being atheologian who directs doctoral
students in a way of thinkingcalled open and relational
theology.
David Lowry (02:16):
Tom you rocked along doing all the things that
professors do, also being apastor.
You knew what you were doing inlife.
Then, as you begin to grow anddevelop, you developed some new
ideas and ways of thinking andthey come into conflict.
And this is something we thinkhappens to people in the second
half of life.
Do you see stages of spiritualdevelopment in people's lives?
(02:38):
Has that been studied?
Do we know how that works?
Tom Oord (02:41):
Yeah, there's quite a few models actually.
If we're talking about howpeople move from different ways
of thinking about truth, life,God, to new ways.
Often people start with a fairlyclear cut black and white, we
can amass the right amount ofdata and facts to get the truth
(03:02):
about reality or God orwhatever, and they begin then to
ask questions.
When those truths, those facts,don't match up with life as it's
been lived, or sometimes it's atragedy or some unusual thing
that happens that makes themquestion the kinds of things
they originally thought wererock solid and every thinking
(03:23):
person would of course, affirm.
That then usually pushes peopleinto a time of life that some
call deconstruction orskepticism.
They begin to throw out thesebig ideas.
And for some people they stay inthat mode.
They stay in a mode in whichthey can never really construct
(03:43):
or affirm anything with apositive effect.
But I think it's healthy to moveto another stage.
And that third stage is not areturn to having rigid belief
systems, but it's a way ofthinking about life that
incorporates what seems to betrue about the way we live our
lives, the things that work inthe world, but is humble.
(04:07):
It's open to change.
We hold onto our ideas loosely,even if they're incredibly
important to us.
Let me illustrate that with themost important thing in my life.
I am first and foremostcommitted to live a life of
love.
And that orients the way I thinkabout my days and my life and my
(04:31):
career and my family, and how Ithink about the current
political administration and allkinds of things.
It's at the center of whom I am.
And yet, I probably couldn't sayI'm absolutely certain about
love because I've been wrongabout so many things in my life.
But my confidence in love is atsuch a level that I'm not only
(04:54):
willing to live for love.
I think I'd be willing to diefor love as well.
So, this third stage is a way ofhaving real true convictions,
but still being humble about howcertain we can be about their
truthfulness.
Don Drew (05:09):
Let me bring up a quote here from Falling Upward,
A Spirituality for the TwoHalves of Life by Richard Rohr.
I love this line.
He says, what passes formorality or spirituality in the
vast majority of people's livesis the way everybody they grew
up with thinks.
And that kind of speaks to howwe get the origin of our belief
system before we begin tochange.
(05:31):
You've undergone quite atransition in your life and you
talk about love.
This is from your book, entitledOpen and Relational Theology.
You wrote, God loves everyone,every creature, and all
creation, no exceptions.
That position in itself is kindof what got you in some
difficulty with your church andcreated a crisis in your life,
(05:51):
right?
Tom Oord (05:53):
Yeah.
In fact, several difficulties.
Yeah.
The way I understand what loverequires and means pushed me to
rethink my fundamental ideasabout God and my fundamental
ideas about gender andsexuality.
In fact, this last year, Iunderwent a church trial that
(06:16):
meant that I not only had mycredentials as a minister
removed, my membership from inthe Church of the Nazarene was
taken from me.
And the reason for this is thatI really believe that
Christians, and reallyeverybody, but especially
Christians, ought to be fullyaffirming of LGBTQ plus people
or queer people.
(06:37):
But the denomination I was apart of understood that
differently.
And so, I went to trial and theypushed me out.
David Lowry (06:45):
At times.
I feel like wow, I've grownapart from mainline thinking in
my own religious tradition, butI love those people.
I understand those people.
I don't want to leave thosepeople.
And so there's a conundrum.
How much do I allow?
How much do I keep to myself?
How do you recommend that peoplein the second half of life
navigate these differencesbetween their culture at large
(07:08):
or their religious organizationsand so forth, and what they've
become in life?
Tom Oord (07:13):
If I had the magic formula on how to navigate that
successfully and always stay inthe groups you wanna stay in, my
life would be a lot differentbecause I'm not in a group that
I wanted to stay in.
But I have learned a few tricksover the years and one of them
is that if I remain humble aboutI think is important, that can
(07:37):
go a long ways toward helping meto accept people who think
differently from me.
Sometimes I have strongconvictions and I have to remind
myself that there was a timewhen I thought differently.
I remember that Tom as a youngperson who had the exact
opposite view on, let's say thequeer issue that I brought up
(07:58):
earlier.
And I try to imagine who I oncewas and then give grace to
people who think differently.
But I think fundamentally Idon't have control over whether
or not groups keep me, andthat's scary.
It doesn't provide security.
I happen to be a person whowants to be liked by other
(08:19):
people.
I think all healthy mindedpeople wanna be liked by folks.
And it hurts when I get pushedoutta groups that I want to be a
part of.
But at the end of the day, ifI'm gonna stay true to what I
think is most important, and tome, the ways of love, then, I
don't always have much controlover whether or not groups wanna
(08:43):
keep me.
Don Drew (08:44):
Tom, you're a theologian.
You have studied your craft formany years now.
This shift you've gone through,and this new understanding of
love and humility, all thesethings have happened over time.
And I think some of ourlisteners at this point in their
life just essentially say, well,I don't believe that anymore.
They're in a place of stasiswhere nothing is happening.
(09:06):
What are some things thatsomebody might think about or do
to reengage with love ofunderstanding for God, search
for spirituality, or search formeaning however that is
interpreted.
What do you think people mightdo?
Tom Oord (09:19):
For me at least, the thing that continually recharges
my quest for spirituality,knowledge of God, these kinds of
issues.
What continually recharges isthe big questions of life.
And probably the biggestquestion, at least for those who
(09:39):
believe in God, and I'm a personwho does believe in God, the
biggest question has been ifthis God exists and this God is
perfectly loving and perfectlypowerful, in fact, all powerful,
as most people would say.
Why doesn't this God prevent,stop the genuine evils of the
(09:59):
world, the pointless pain, theunnecessary suffering?
In fact, the polls that I'veseen say that this is the number
one reason people who don'tbelieve in God, atheist or
agnostics, the number one reasonthey say they can't believe in
God.
And my conversations withbelievers point me to say it's
the number one question theyhave too.
(10:22):
And for me the usual answerspeople gave to that kind of
question were far fromsatisfying.
Things like your uncle diedbecause heaven needs another
choir.
Or you were sexually abusedbecause God's trying to teach
you a lesson.
Or you had this tragedy happenbecause you have hidden sin.
Whatever.
(10:43):
Those things just never madegood sense to me, even when I
was younger.
And I finally came to the placein my life when I had to decide,
or I came to decide, that I hadto rethink the idea that God was
all powerful, God as omnipotentto use the classic word.
And I've given up that view now.
(11:04):
I don't think God can controlanyone or anything in creation
at any time.
And I think God can't do thosethings because God is a God of
love, and I think love isinherently uncontrolling.
So, while God is still in my wayof thinking, the strongest.
(11:24):
Even the strongest, can'tcontrol others because the
strongest in this case, God, isuncontrolling love.
So, for me, in rethinking myideas and revitalizing my quest
for spirituality, it was lookingat the big questions of life and
asking, Okay, can I come to aresolution to those questions
(11:47):
that really makes sense to meand fits the way life seems to
be lived?
David Lowry (11:52):
So, that was a journey for you.
How long was that journey fromGod being absolutely in charge
of everything, to there's somethings God can't do?
Tom Oord (12:02):
At least a decade.
I came to that view in thenineties, but I was in a
religious institution that Ididn't feel completely free to
share it in all the ways that Ido today.
So, part of it gets back to yourpre previous question.
I was worried the group wouldkick me out if I had that view.
(12:24):
And it took me a while to getthere.
And then once I got there, ittook another while for me to
find the right language toexpress what I wanted to say.
David Lowry (12:35):
Tom, a very Oordinary statement people make
these days is, I'm spiritual,not religious.
what do you think about that?
Tom Oord (12:42):
I think most people who make that claim want to
distance themselves frominstitutionalized religion and
the idea that you have toascribe to a particular set of
doctrines.
In reality, all spiritual peopleare religious.
It's just a different kind ofreligion than what they're used
to.
And so they use that language totry to distinguish this new way
(13:05):
of looking from what most peoplethink of as religious.
I'm fine with people sayingthey're spiritual but not
religious.
What I'm most interested in, asI've already mentioned, is how
this spirituality promotes theways of love.
I'm a part of what's called theopen and Relational Theological
(13:25):
community.
It's a community that thinksthat God is really influencing
us and being influenced by us.
So, our choices actually make adifference to God.
And it thinks about God movingthrough time with us moment by
moment into a future that isn'tpredestined, isn't
(13:45):
predetermined, but is actually,coming to fruition by the
choices that we and others inGod make moment by moment.
And what's compelling about thatvision of God is that it's not
restricted just to people whoare Christians.
There are Muslims and Hindus andMormons and Jews, folks of
(14:08):
various religious traditions wholike that general shape of God.
And the strange thing is, David,is that there are some of my
fellow Christians who have aradically different view of God
than some of my Muslim friendswho are open and relational
theists.
And so this way of thinkingabout God, the thing that I
(14:29):
think is most important as itpoints toward love, is something
that can transcend the typicalboundaries that people raise up
when they talk about religion.
David Lowry (14:39):
As we move into senior years, seniors have a
reputation for being ratherblunt.
Putting it out there, not caringabout what anybody thinks or how
they take them or something likethat.
But one of the beautiful thingsabout being a senior is that we
use wisdom in the way that weexpress ourselves.
How do we share matters of faithand be authentic and upfront
(15:01):
about who we are withoutapology, without being such a
turnoff to so many people?
Any suggestions on that?
Tom Oord (15:08):
I now have grandkids and they're still fairly young.
But I've been thinking about theideas they have and I'm sure
there going to move into a timein their teens where they're
gonna think differently than meand their parents.
And as a grandparent, I love mygrandkids so much.
I want what's best for them.
(15:30):
And I know that wisdom says Ineed to let them find their way
and not foist or impose all ofmy ideas on them.
They're not going to agree withme in everything.
And my care for them, myrelationship with them, is far
more important to me than makingsure they line up having the
(15:54):
right beliefs about certainthings.
So, I privilege relationshipover correct beliefs.
I privilege love and affectionover memorizing the rules and I
think my experience, in thelimited life I've had, is that
is wiser.
(16:15):
I have a child who doesn'tbelieve in God anymore, who
doesn't attend church and thatsort of thing.
And I've tried to be very openand have genuine heartfelt
dialogues in ways that are, atleast my attempt is to not be
threatening.
And one of the questions sheasked me is, can you accept me
(16:40):
for who I am?
And my answer to her is that Ican accept you the way you are
because I have a particular viewof God who accepts me the way I
am.
That doesn't mean that Godagrees with all my views and is
always pleased with what I do.
(17:00):
Just like I might not agree withall the views of my daughter or
am happy with all the choicesshe makes, but I am committed to
be a loving presence in her lifeto the degree that she would
like me to be.
And that strategy has beenhelpful for our relationship.
I would say we have a goodrelationship.
(17:21):
And it's been helpful in termsof me wrestling with my own
issues through life.
For me, I still believe in Godand a God of love.
And that gives me a kind ofassurance that the depth of
divine love and that I am lovedgives me an assurance that if I
have the wrong ideas or make badchoices, I don't leave that
(17:43):
loving presence of God.
God is always there forgivingand accepting and calling me.
David Lowry (17:49):
Back in the day I was a member of a 12 step group
for about five years.
And there was a saying in thisgroup, I fired that God.
We had these ideas about God andwe said, I'm firing that God.
Alright Tom, what kind of Godhave you fired over the years?
Tom Oord (18:09):
I have fired the God who's in control or even could
control anyone or anything.
That's a big God who's dead tome now.
I fired the God who only likesthe elect or the chosen and
sends other people to hell.
That God's dead to me.
I've fired the God who has foreknown everything standing
(18:32):
outside of time and somehowknows the future.
I think God learns moment bymoment like we do.
So, that old God is dead to me.
I've fired the God who has noneeds and no relation.
He's isolated like an iceberg,unaffected by anything.
That God is dead to me now.
(18:53):
I've fired the God who thinksthere's only two kinds of
genders and only one propersexual orientation.
Well, I could go for quite awhile here, David.
David Lowry (19:03):
You have fired a lot of Gods in your time and
strangely I fired a lot of thosegods too.
Tom Oord (19:10):
I remember thinking when I was younger that my tribe
was christianity, team Jesus.
I was on team, Jesus and all theother teams were out there.
They were the wrong team and wewere in competition to them.
And it just so happened thatbeing on team Jesus, I was
supposed to be a loving person'cause that was one of the team
rules.
(19:31):
But ultimately, being on theright team mattered more than
loving.
And that's changed in my life.
Today, I'm a lover first and amember of Christianity second,
as important as Christianbeliefs are to me.
Because in my way of thinking,love is greater than any
religion.
(19:51):
And it's greater thanaffiliation or allegiance to any
particular team.
And this means that I sometimeshave to stand as a prophet
against the people whom I ammost closely identified.
And that's uncomfortable.
I sometimes question myself,like maybe I'm wrong about this.
(20:16):
But I think if love requires usto promote the flourishing of
others, all others, evenenemies, then, we have to
sometimes be open to cuttingties with the people who have
been so important to us in thepast.
Don Drew (20:32):
Tom, you've spent the last 60 years a part of a church
that has now said that it nolonger wants you to be a part of
that, right?
That just happened last year.
So, here's the big question.
What now?
Tom Oord (20:43):
Well, I made a decision before I went to the
trial that I wasn't gonnaquickly move to another
denomination.
So, I've had lots of people fromvarious traditions say, Hey,
you'd fit really well here.
We'd love to have you, andthat's very kind of them.
But I wasn't going through thetrial because I wanted to burn
(21:03):
my bridges with the Church toNazarene and go somewhere else
and say, tough luck for youguys.
That wasn't my purpose.
And I don't want to put all ofthe, blame's not the right word.
I don't wanna say that thechurch was aggressively going
after me and I was just standingby passively saying, what have I
done?
Because I was being very boldand public about my support for
(21:27):
queer issues, about my viewsabout a loving God.
And I had come to a place in mylife where I felt like if I had
to choose between remaining inthis particular group, this
church and denomination, orsaying what I thought needed to
be said about love for queerpeople.
I was gonna choose queer peopleover the church.
(21:50):
And if that meant me gettingpushed out, well that would be
painful but it's sort of this,here I stand, I can do no other
kind of a thing.
Strangely enough, I still attendthe Church of the Nazarene.
I just can't be a member there.
So, I haven't even technicallyleft.
But I still attend a littlechurch that's supportive and I
have friends.
(22:10):
And I've got 60 years offriendships, you just don't walk
away from those, especially whenso many of those friends
supported and encouraged andagreed with my stand.
So, I'm in a weird place, Don.
I'm kind of trying to figurewhat my identity is and it's
awkward cause I don't know quitehow I fit.
David Lowry (22:31):
You have, from my viewpoint, made it very clear
what your identity is.
It's love first.
You are love first.
And how you are going torelationally hang out with
people that's still to bedecided, but it's always gonna
be based in love first.
And yeah.
I see you as having made a veryclear decision there.
Tom Oord (22:53):
Oh, definitely that.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Don Drew (22:55):
Tom, in all these years you've been dedicated to
theology, to the concepts oflove, to your students and to so
many other things.
What about the legacy you wantto leave?
Tom Oord (23:06):
People identify me in a number of ways.
Many people think I'm atheologian.
I've been a professor to lots ofpeople.
Of course, I'm a father and ahusband.
I'm an artist.
I do a lot of photography.
Some people know me as aspeaker.
I have all these hats that Iwear.
And I was thinking the other daythat when I die, I think what I
(23:31):
would most like put on mytombstone or whatever form I'm
remembered not, Tom was a, animportant theologian, or Tom was
an artist or whatever.
All those are important.
I want something like he triedto live a life of love.
That, to me, sums up my primaryaim and purpose in life.
(23:53):
And it's the thing that I wantto hand on to those who come
after me.
Because for me, the focus oflove is central not only to my
spirituality, but is central towhat I think life should be all
about.
I think whoever said love is theanswer actually had that right.
(24:15):
And, as I come to my laterstages of life, that's what I
care about most.
David Lowry (24:22):
We've been speaking with Dr.
Thomas Oord, who is many thingsto many people.
He's an author of more than 30books, a pastor, a theologian,
he studies relational theology.
You can follow him on Substack.
Tom, tell us some of the waysthat we can follow you and learn
more about the work you do.
Tom Oord (24:39):
Yeah, thanks.
I have a personal website that'smy full name, Thomas J Oord.
My last name is spelled with twoo's, O O R D, and so you can
find a lot of information there.
If you're interested in open andrelational theology, I direct
the Center for Open andRelational Theology.
And that website is C, thenumber four, O R T dot com.
(25:01):
But you can find me other socialmedia platforms.
David Lowry (25:04):
Tom, we're so glad you've been on our program
today.
Thank you for agreeing to bewith us.
I hope that we can get with youagain sometime.
Tom Oord (25:11):
Thanks for the invitation.
David Lowry (25:12):
Here on Peaceful Life Radio, we want to help you
navigate the second half of lifewith grace, growth,
self-awareness and purpose, andan opportunity to live with
intention.
Don Drew (25:23):
If you've enjoyed today's episode, we'd love you
to subscribe, leave a review,and share it with the others who
might benefit from ourdiscussions.
And as always, we're here toinspire you to make this journey
your very best.
Until next time, take care andstay peaceful.
I'm a lover first and a member of Christianity second,
(00:04):
as important as Christianbeliefs are to me.
Because in my way of thinking,love is greater than any
religion.
I am first and foremostcommitted to live a life of
love.
And that orients the way I thinkabout my days and my life and my
career and my family, and how Ithink about the current
(00:25):
political administration and allkinds of things.
I think I'd be willing to diefor love as well.
David Lowry (00:31):
That was Dr.
Thomas J Oord, our guest todayon Peaceful Life Radio.
Welcome everybody.
This is David Lowry, and I'mhere with my co-host Don Drew.
Don, how are you today?
Don Drew (00:42):
I'm doing great, David.
David Lowry (00:43):
We're thrilled to have Dr.
Thomas Oord as our guest.
Dr.
Oord is a theologian, scholar,and an author who has profound
insights having to do withfaith, shifting beliefs, and
navigating challenges to hisfaith.
Don, tell us more about Thomas,your personal friend?
Don Drew (00:59):
Well, his personal journey of confronting shifting
beliefs and navigatingchallenges within his faith
background offers some valuablelessons for anyone reflecting on
their own spiritual path.
Together we'll explore questionsof faith, belief systems, and
how to approach moments ofchange with openness and
authenticity.
Whether you're firm in your longheld beliefs or wrestling with
(01:19):
new perspectives, thisconversation promises to be
thought provoking andmeaningful.
So, let's dive in.
Welcome, Tom.
Tom Oord (01:26):
Looking forward to this conversation with you two.
Don Drew (01:28):
Great.
I got a question for you.
Can you share about yourpersonal journey and how your
beliefs have evolved over time?
Tom Oord (01:36):
My beliefs seem to be always in process.
Every time I think I've come toa place where they're all
settled, something else emergesand it turns out that I don't
know God after all.
I don't know life after all, asif I had it all figured out..
So, I think it'd be safe to saythat I'm always on a journey.
I'm not certain about too much,but my faith has shifted from
(02:02):
growing up as a committedevangelical in a traditional
country church to today being atheologian who directs doctoral
students in a way of thinkingcalled open and relational
theology.
David Lowry (02:16):
Tom you rocked along doing all the things that
professors do, also being apastor.
You knew what you were doing inlife.
Then, as you begin to grow anddevelop, you developed some new
ideas and ways of thinking andthey come into conflict.
And this is something we thinkhappens to people in the second
half of life.
Do you see stages of spiritualdevelopment in people's lives?
(02:38):
Has that been studied?
Do we know how that works?
Tom Oord (02:41):
Yeah, there's quite a few models actually.
If we're talking about howpeople move from different ways
of thinking about truth, life,God, to new ways.
Often people start with a fairlyclear cut black and white, we
can amass the right amount ofdata and facts to get the truth
(03:02):
about reality or God orwhatever, and they begin then to
ask questions.
When those truths, those facts,don't match up with life as it's
been lived, or sometimes it's atragedy or some unusual thing
that happens that makes themquestion the kinds of things
they originally thought wererock solid and every thinking
(03:23):
person would of course, affirm.
That then usually pushes peopleinto a time of life that some
call deconstruction orskepticism.
They begin to throw out thesebig ideas.
And for some people they stay inthat mode.
They stay in a mode in whichthey can never really construct
(03:43):
or affirm anything with apositive effect.
But I think it's healthy to moveto another stage.
And that third stage is not areturn to having rigid belief
systems, but it's a way ofthinking about life that
incorporates what seems to betrue about the way we live our
lives, the things that work inthe world, but is humble.
(04:07):
It's open to change.
We hold onto our ideas loosely,even if they're incredibly
important to us.
Let me illustrate that with themost important thing in my life.
I am first and foremostcommitted to live a life of
love.
And that orients the way I thinkabout my days and my life and my
(04:31):
career and my family, and how Ithink about the current
political administration and allkinds of things.
It's at the center of whom I am.
And yet, I probably couldn't sayI'm absolutely certain about
love because I've been wrongabout so many things in my life.
But my confidence in love is atsuch a level that I'm not only
(04:54):
willing to live for love.
I think I'd be willing to diefor love as well.
So, this third stage is a way ofhaving real true convictions,
but still being humble about howcertain we can be about their
truthfulness.
Don Drew (05:09):
Let me bring up a quote here from Falling Upward,
A Spirituality for the TwoHalves of Life by Richard Rohr.
I love this line.
He says, what passes formorality or spirituality in the
vast majority of people's livesis the way everybody they grew
up with thinks.
And that kind of speaks to howwe get the origin of our belief
system before we begin tochange.
(05:31):
You've undergone quite atransition in your life and you
talk about love.
This is from your book, entitledOpen and Relational Theology.
You wrote, God loves everyone,every creature, and all
creation, no exceptions.
That position in itself is kindof what got you in some
difficulty with your church andcreated a crisis in your life,
(05:51):
right?
Tom Oord (05:53):
Yeah.
In fact, several difficulties.
Yeah.
The way I understand what loverequires and means pushed me to
rethink my fundamental ideasabout God and my fundamental
ideas about gender andsexuality.
In fact, this last year, Iunderwent a church trial that
(06:16):
meant that I not only had mycredentials as a minister
removed, my membership from inthe Church of the Nazarene was
taken from me.
And the reason for this is thatI really believe that
Christians, and reallyeverybody, but especially
Christians, ought to be fullyaffirming of LGBTQ plus people
or queer people.
(06:37):
But the denomination I was apart of understood that
differently.
And so, I went to trial and theypushed me out.
David Lowry (06:45):
At times.
I feel like wow, I've grownapart from mainline thinking in
my own religious tradition, butI love those people.
I understand those people.
I don't want to leave thosepeople.
And so there's a conundrum.
How much do I allow?
How much do I keep to myself?
How do you recommend that peoplein the second half of life
navigate these differencesbetween their culture at large
(07:08):
or their religious organizationsand so forth, and what they've
become in life?
Tom Oord (07:13):
If I had the magic formula on how to navigate that
successfully and always stay inthe groups you wanna stay in, my
life would be a lot differentbecause I'm not in a group that
I wanted to stay in.
But I have learned a few tricksover the years and one of them
is that if I remain humble aboutI think is important, that can
(07:37):
go a long ways toward helping meto accept people who think
differently from me.
Sometimes I have strongconvictions and I have to remind
myself that there was a timewhen I thought differently.
I remember that Tom as a youngperson who had the exact
opposite view on, let's say thequeer issue that I brought up
(07:58):
earlier.
And I try to imagine who I oncewas and then give grace to
people who think differently.
But I think fundamentally Idon't have control over whether
or not groups keep me, andthat's scary.
It doesn't provide security.
I happen to be a person whowants to be liked by other
(08:19):
people.
I think all healthy mindedpeople wanna be liked by folks.
And it hurts when I get pushedoutta groups that I want to be a
part of.
But at the end of the day, ifI'm gonna stay true to what I
think is most important, and tome, the ways of love, then, I
don't always have much controlover whether or not groups wanna
(08:43):
keep me.
Don Drew (08:44):
Tom, you're a theologian.
You have studied your craft formany years now.
This shift you've gone through,and this new understanding of
love and humility, all thesethings have happened over time.
And I think some of ourlisteners at this point in their
life just essentially say, well,I don't believe that anymore.
They're in a place of stasiswhere nothing is happening.
(09:06):
What are some things thatsomebody might think about or do
to reengage with love ofunderstanding for God, search
for spirituality, or search formeaning however that is
interpreted.
What do you think people mightdo?
Tom Oord (09:19):
For me at least, the thing that continually recharges
my quest for spirituality,knowledge of God, these kinds of
issues.
What continually recharges isthe big questions of life.
And probably the biggestquestion, at least for those who
(09:39):
believe in God, and I'm a personwho does believe in God, the
biggest question has been ifthis God exists and this God is
perfectly loving and perfectlypowerful, in fact, all powerful,
as most people would say.
Why doesn't this God prevent,stop the genuine evils of the
(09:59):
world, the pointless pain, theunnecessary suffering?
In fact, the polls that I'veseen say that this is the number
one reason people who don'tbelieve in God, atheist or
agnostics, the number one reasonthey say they can't believe in
God.
And my conversations withbelievers point me to say it's
the number one question theyhave too.
(10:22):
And for me the usual answerspeople gave to that kind of
question were far fromsatisfying.
Things like your uncle diedbecause heaven needs another
choir.
Or you were sexually abusedbecause God's trying to teach
you a lesson.
Or you had this tragedy happenbecause you have hidden sin.
Whatever.
(10:43):
Those things just never madegood sense to me, even when I
was younger.
And I finally came to the placein my life when I had to decide,
or I came to decide, that I hadto rethink the idea that God was
all powerful, God as omnipotentto use the classic word.
And I've given up that view now.
(11:04):
I don't think God can controlanyone or anything in creation
at any time.
And I think God can't do thosethings because God is a God of
love, and I think love isinherently uncontrolling.
So, while God is still in my wayof thinking, the strongest.
(11:24):
Even the strongest, can'tcontrol others because the
strongest in this case, God, isuncontrolling love.
So, for me, in rethinking myideas and revitalizing my quest
for spirituality, it was lookingat the big questions of life and
asking, Okay, can I come to aresolution to those questions
(11:47):
that really makes sense to meand fits the way life seems to
be lived?
David Lowry (11:52):
So, that was a journey for you.
How long was that journey fromGod being absolutely in charge
of everything, to there's somethings God can't do?
Tom Oord (12:02):
At least a decade.
I came to that view in thenineties, but I was in a
religious institution that Ididn't feel completely free to
share it in all the ways that Ido today.
So, part of it gets back to yourpre previous question.
I was worried the group wouldkick me out if I had that view.
(12:24):
And it took me a while to getthere.
And then once I got there, ittook another while for me to
find the right language toexpress what I wanted to say.
David Lowry (12:35):
Tom, a very Oordinary statement people make
these days is, I'm spiritual,not religious.
what do you think about that?
Tom Oord (12:42):
I think most people who make that claim want to
distance themselves frominstitutionalized religion and
the idea that you have toascribe to a particular set of
doctrines.
In reality, all spiritual peopleare religious.
It's just a different kind ofreligion than what they're used
to.
And so they use that language totry to distinguish this new way
(13:05):
of looking from what most peoplethink of as religious.
I'm fine with people sayingthey're spiritual but not
religious.
What I'm most interested in, asI've already mentioned, is how
this spirituality promotes theways of love.
I'm a part of what's called theopen and Relational Theological
(13:25):
community.
It's a community that thinksthat God is really influencing
us and being influenced by us.
So, our choices actually make adifference to God.
And it thinks about God movingthrough time with us moment by
moment into a future that isn'tpredestined, isn't
(13:45):
predetermined, but is actually,coming to fruition by the
choices that we and others inGod make moment by moment.
And what's compelling about thatvision of God is that it's not
restricted just to people whoare Christians.
There are Muslims and Hindus andMormons and Jews, folks of
(14:08):
various religious traditions wholike that general shape of God.
And the strange thing is, David,is that there are some of my
fellow Christians who have aradically different view of God
than some of my Muslim friendswho are open and relational
theists.
And so this way of thinkingabout God, the thing that I
(14:29):
think is most important as itpoints toward love, is something
that can transcend the typicalboundaries that people raise up
when they talk about religion.
David Lowry (14:39):
As we move into senior years, seniors have a
reputation for being ratherblunt.
Putting it out there, not caringabout what anybody thinks or how
they take them or something likethat.
But one of the beautiful thingsabout being a senior is that we
use wisdom in the way that weexpress ourselves.
How do we share matters of faithand be authentic and upfront
(15:01):
about who we are withoutapology, without being such a
turnoff to so many people?
Any suggestions on that?
Tom Oord (15:08):
I now have grandkids and they're still fairly young.
But I've been thinking about theideas they have and I'm sure
there going to move into a timein their teens where they're
gonna think differently than meand their parents.
And as a grandparent, I love mygrandkids so much.
I want what's best for them.
(15:30):
And I know that wisdom says Ineed to let them find their way
and not foist or impose all ofmy ideas on them.
They're not going to agree withme in everything.
And my care for them, myrelationship with them, is far
more important to me than makingsure they line up having the
(15:54):
right beliefs about certainthings.
So, I privilege relationshipover correct beliefs.
I privilege love and affectionover memorizing the rules and I
think my experience, in thelimited life I've had, is that
is wiser.
(16:15):
I have a child who doesn'tbelieve in God anymore, who
doesn't attend church and thatsort of thing.
And I've tried to be very openand have genuine heartfelt
dialogues in ways that are, atleast my attempt is to not be
threatening.
And one of the questions sheasked me is, can you accept me
(16:40):
for who I am?
And my answer to her is that Ican accept you the way you are
because I have a particular viewof God who accepts me the way I
am.
That doesn't mean that Godagrees with all my views and is
always pleased with what I do.
(17:00):
Just like I might not agree withall the views of my daughter or
am happy with all the choicesshe makes, but I am committed to
be a loving presence in her lifeto the degree that she would
like me to be.
And that strategy has beenhelpful for our relationship.
I would say we have a goodrelationship.
(17:21):
And it's been helpful in termsof me wrestling with my own
issues through life.
For me, I still believe in Godand a God of love.
And that gives me a kind ofassurance that the depth of
divine love and that I am lovedgives me an assurance that if I
have the wrong ideas or make badchoices, I don't leave that
(17:43):
loving presence of God.
God is always there forgivingand accepting and calling me.
David Lowry (17:49):
Back in the day I was a member of a 12 step group
for about five years.
And there was a saying in thisgroup, I fired that God.
We had these ideas about God andwe said, I'm firing that God.
Alright Tom, what kind of Godhave you fired over the years?
Tom Oord (18:09):
I have fired the God who's in control or even could
control anyone or anything.
That's a big God who's dead tome now.
I fired the God who only likesthe elect or the chosen and
sends other people to hell.
That God's dead to me.
I've fired the God who has foreknown everything standing
(18:32):
outside of time and somehowknows the future.
I think God learns moment bymoment like we do.
So, that old God is dead to me.
I've fired the God who has noneeds and no relation.
He's isolated like an iceberg,unaffected by anything.
That God is dead to me now.
(18:53):
I've fired the God who thinksthere's only two kinds of
genders and only one propersexual orientation.
Well, I could go for quite awhile here, David.
David Lowry (19:03):
You have fired a lot of Gods in your time and
strangely I fired a lot of thosegods too.
Tom Oord (19:10):
I remember thinking when I was younger that my tribe
was christianity, team Jesus.
I was on team, Jesus and all theother teams were out there.
They were the wrong team and wewere in competition to them.
And it just so happened thatbeing on team Jesus, I was
supposed to be a loving person'cause that was one of the team
rules.
(19:31):
But ultimately, being on theright team mattered more than
loving.
And that's changed in my life.
Today, I'm a lover first and amember of Christianity second,
as important as Christianbeliefs are to me.
Because in my way of thinking,love is greater than any
religion.
(19:51):
And it's greater thanaffiliation or allegiance to any
particular team.
And this means that I sometimeshave to stand as a prophet
against the people whom I ammost closely identified.
And that's uncomfortable.
I sometimes question myself,like maybe I'm wrong about this.
(20:16):
But I think if love requires usto promote the flourishing of
others, all others, evenenemies, then, we have to
sometimes be open to cuttingties with the people who have
been so important to us in thepast.
Don Drew (20:32):
Tom, you've spent the last 60 years a part of a church
that has now said that it nolonger wants you to be a part of
that, right?
That just happened last year.
So, here's the big question.
What now?
Tom Oord (20:43):
Well, I made a decision before I went to the
trial that I wasn't gonnaquickly move to another
denomination.
So, I've had lots of people fromvarious traditions say, Hey,
you'd fit really well here.
We'd love to have you, andthat's very kind of them.
But I wasn't going through thetrial because I wanted to burn
(21:03):
my bridges with the Church toNazarene and go somewhere else
and say, tough luck for youguys.
That wasn't my purpose.
And I don't want to put all ofthe, blame's not the right word.
I don't wanna say that thechurch was aggressively going
after me and I was just standingby passively saying, what have I
done?
Because I was being very boldand public about my support for
(21:27):
queer issues, about my viewsabout a loving God.
And I had come to a place in mylife where I felt like if I had
to choose between remaining inthis particular group, this
church and denomination, orsaying what I thought needed to
be said about love for queerpeople.
I was gonna choose queer peopleover the church.
(21:50):
And if that meant me gettingpushed out, well that would be
painful but it's sort of this,here I stand, I can do no other
kind of a thing.
Strangely enough, I still attendthe Church of the Nazarene.
I just can't be a member there.
So, I haven't even technicallyleft.
But I still attend a littlechurch that's supportive and I
have friends.
(22:10):
And I've got 60 years offriendships, you just don't walk
away from those, especially whenso many of those friends
supported and encouraged andagreed with my stand.
So, I'm in a weird place, Don.
I'm kind of trying to figurewhat my identity is and it's
awkward cause I don't know quitehow I fit.
David Lowry (22:31):
You have, from my viewpoint, made it very clear
what your identity is.
It's love first.
You are love first.
And how you are going torelationally hang out with
people that's still to bedecided, but it's always gonna
be based in love first.
And yeah.
I see you as having made a veryclear decision there.
Tom Oord (22:53):
Oh, definitely that.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Don Drew (22:55):
Tom, in all these years you've been dedicated to
theology, to the concepts oflove, to your students and to so
many other things.
What about the legacy you wantto leave?
Tom Oord (23:06):
People identify me in a number of ways.
Many people think I'm atheologian.
I've been a professor to lots ofpeople.
Of course, I'm a father and ahusband.
I'm an artist.
I do a lot of photography.
Some people know me as aspeaker.
I have all these hats that Iwear.
And I was thinking the other daythat when I die, I think what I
(23:31):
would most like put on mytombstone or whatever form I'm
remembered not, Tom was a, animportant theologian, or Tom was
an artist or whatever.
All those are important.
I want something like he triedto live a life of love.
That, to me, sums up my primaryaim and purpose in life.
(23:53):
And it's the thing that I wantto hand on to those who come
after me.
Because for me, the focus oflove is central not only to my
spirituality, but is central towhat I think life should be all
about.
I think whoever said love is theanswer actually had that right.
(24:15):
And, as I come to my laterstages of life, that's what I
care about most.
David Lowry (24:22):
We've been speaking with Dr.
Thomas Oord, who is many thingsto many people.
He's an author of more than 30books, a pastor, a theologian,
he studies relational theology.
You can follow him on Substack.
Tom, tell us some of the waysthat we can follow you and learn
more about the work you do.
Tom Oord (24:39):
Yeah, thanks.
I have a personal website that'smy full name, Thomas J Oord.
My last name is spelled with twoo's, O O R D, and so you can
find a lot of information there.
If you're interested in open andrelational theology, I direct
the Center for Open andRelational Theology.
And that website is C, thenumber four, O R T dot com.
(25:01):
But you can find me other socialmedia platforms.
David Lowry (25:04):
Tom, we're so glad you've been on our program
today.
Thank you for agreeing to bewith us.
I hope that we can get with youagain sometime.
Tom Oord (25:11):
Thanks for the invitation.
David Lowry (25:12):
Here on Peaceful Life Radio, we want to help you
navigate the second half of lifewith grace, growth,
self-awareness and purpose, andan opportunity to live with
intention.
Don Drew (25:23):
If you've enjoyed today's episode, we'd love you
to subscribe, leave a review,and share it with the others who
might benefit from ourdiscussions.
And as always, we're here toinspire you to make this journey
your very best.
Until next time, take care andstay peaceful.
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