April 20, 2025 • 21 mins
Maximizing Volunteer Impact: Insights from Jonathan Malm
In this engaging episode of Peaceful Life Radio, hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome entrepreneur and author Jonathan Malm. Jonathan shares his insights on creating meaningful volunteer experiences, stressing the importance of community, setting healthy boundaries, and maintaining a sense of humility. He discusses challenges unique to older volunteers, the significance of mental and emotional rest, and how to avoid burnout. Jonathan also introduces his books, 'Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright' and 'The Volunteer Survival Guide,' offering practical advice for volunteers and leaders. Tune in to learn how to contribute effectively and joyfully in your volunteer roles.
00:00 Introduction to Peaceful Life Radio
00:31 Meet Jonathan Malm, Entrepreneur and Author
01:00 Creating an Excellent Volunteer Experience
01:59 Volunteering in the Second Half of Life
05:19 Avoiding Burnout: Healthy Boundaries and Rest
06:34 The Volunteer Survival Guide
09:33 Leadership and Volunteer Management
12:01 Tools and Resources for Volunteers
13:02 Recognizing and Addressing Burnout
15:29 The Importance of Teamwork in Volunteering
18:29 Jonathan Malm's Latest Works and Digital Opportunities
20:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Visit the Peaceful Life Radio website for more information. Peaceful Life Productions LLP produces this podcast, which helps nonprofits and small businesses share their stories and expertise through accessible and cost-effective podcasts and websites. For more information, please contact us at info@peacefullifeproductions.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan Malm (00:00):
A lot of times leaders of volunteers are so
(00:02):
focused on, checking off theto-do list items and making sure
all the volunteers do all thethings and they don't reinforce
the community aspect, the funaspect, the am I doing work to
do work or does it actuallymatter?
David Lowry (00:15):
Hello everyone and welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
That was Jonathan Malm just now.
He's our guest on our programtoday, and it's a very exciting
show.
I'm David Lowry, and with me isDon Drew.
Don, how are you doing?
Don Drew (00:27):
I'm doing great, David, and we want to welcome
all our listeners today.
Jonathan is an entrepreneur andauthor, helping churches figure
out how to best treat andutilize volunteers, provide
hospitality, avoid burnout, anduse social media effectively.
He lives in San Antonio, Texaswith his wife and two young
boys.
And he has a very interestingwebsite, by the way.
I was able to find that he hasobsessions.
(00:50):
Amongst his obsessions are Nitrocold brew and Cajun food.
So, Hey Jonathan.
Welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
We're glad to have you heretoday.
Jonathan Malm (00:59):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Don Drew (01:00):
I want to start with what does it take to have an
excellent volunteer experience?
Jonathan Malm (01:06):
Yeah, depending on your situation, sometimes you
can be a little overenthusiastic and you can get
into burnout.
Or sometimes the person who'sleading you can be a little over
enthusiastic and try to get morefrom you than maybe you wanna
give.
So, I found that one of the bestthings, both from a volunteer
perspective and from a leaderperspective, is healthy
boundaries.
(01:26):
When I volunteer at my church,one of the things that I tell
them is while I'm here you haveme a hundred percent of the
time.
It's like you have all of me, ahundred percent whatever you
need I'm there for it.
But I'm not always gonna bethere.
Right?
I'm not always volunteering.
So, the boundaries, let me sayyes joyfully and let me say no
and not feel guilty about it,right?
(01:46):
I can say yes.
Happily, yes, I would love to dothat.
And then whenever I have to sayno, it's because, no, I really
shouldn't do that.
And yeah, it's very intentionalabout setting boundaries.
I think that's one of the bestways to really have a good
volunteer experience.
David Lowry (01:59):
Jonathan, when we think of volunteering in the
second half of life, so many ofus are hoping to give back.
We've had a rich life.
We've experienced many thingsand we wanna leave a legacy of
service, use that spare timeinstead of sitting down and
watching TV or being bored orsomething like that.
We wanna use our livesproductively.
(02:20):
Talk to us about some of theexperiences that could be
available for somebody who wantsto volunteer and do something
meaningful with their life whilethey're in their golden years.
Jonathan Malm (02:31):
I find that one of the problems with a volunteer
leader working with people whoare older is there's a lot of
insecurity.
If you're a young leader workingwith an older person.
The older person has a lot ofyears of experience, a lot of
wisdom, and sometimes that canfeel threatening for a leader.
One of the best things I wouldencourage anyone older to do is
(02:54):
lead with a sense of humility.
Obviously you have wisdom,obviously you have that, but
there's this sort of thing thatneeds to happen where you
approach it almost asking.
It's like this kind of thiswisdom thing you do whenever
you're, you, it's almost likeleading from the bottom right?
You ask questions to get themwhere you want them to go,
right?
Not in a manipulative way, butunderstanding that there's a lot
of insecurity that can sometimesbe involved with leaders.
(03:17):
Because otherwise, I thinksometimes what happens is you
get relegated to a lessinfluential role.
Like, oh yeah, we want you to bea nice greeter.
We want you to smile and wavebecause it's easy to dismiss
people's wisdom and what theyhave to offer if you feel
threatened by them.
So there are a lot ofopportunities.
All that said, don't just Settlefor being the smiling greeter
(03:39):
that is so often, especially inchurch roles.
You can have real influence.
You can really have an impact,but it often takes that kind of
humility that, teachteachability.
But it's even just a posture ofhumility toward people that
don't know as much as you.
Never lead the way with answers.
Lead the way with questions andthat gives the opportunity to
(04:00):
have a lot of influence.
Don Drew (04:00):
In my case, I volunteer at the local zoo quite
a bit.
And I went in there with theattitude that I was going to try
to consciously not take aleadership position, which was
actually challenging for me.
I was working almost exclusivelywith a bunch of young people,
and I wanted to make sure thatthey had a chance to find their
(04:21):
own way to lead and so forthwithout me necessarily jumping
in and trying to do something,even though sometimes I could
see a better way to do it.
Jonathan Malm (04:28):
If you have years of experience of having climbed
corporate ladders or have dealtwith people that, like I've seen
the situation 50 different ways.
And I have the solution.
And that can feel threatening toyounger people because it's a
lot of insecurity.
I've noticed that arrogance orbravado, or whatever you wanna
call it, is usually coming froma place of insecurity.
(04:50):
The almost ironic thing aboutleadership is sometimes when you
encourage insecure people, theybecome less insecure and give
you more input into their lives.
I've experienced that so manytimes where you know what I
thought I should kind of hammerthem down.
As a leader, I thought I shouldconfront that arrogance head on
and realizing that they actuallyneeded encouragement to grow
(05:10):
into a role of leadership.
David Lowry (05:12):
So many volunteers are driven by passion, and
sometimes that can lead to overcommitment.
You mentioned earlier that youhave boundaries, but I also
think it's good for volunteersto know their boundaries.
You have another book calledDon't Burn Out, burn Bright that
I think might have a littlesomething to do as well about
our work as volunteers.
Jonathan Malm (05:33):
Most definitely.
Me and my co-writer, we've found10 things, 10 pillars of health
that will keep you from burningout, right?
One of those is rest, obviously.
But in our modern world,whenever you're a farmer and you
were working the fields, youneeded rest for your body
because you were activelyengaged in physical labor and
you needed rest.
We are not doing as muchphysical labor nowadays, so we
(05:57):
don't need as much rest for ourbodies.
In fact, we should probably beworking out a little bit more.
We should probably activate ourbodies a little bit more.
But what we need instead ismental, emotional rest.
A way to rest our minds.
And unfortunately some things inour lives can simulate rest, but
not actually provide rest.
Social media for me is one ofthose where I can spend two
(06:19):
hours scrolling on social media.
It's downtime.
It's unwinding time.
But I don't feel rested.
I don't feel any more energized.
That's not rest to me.
So it's very important that wechoose our rest carefully.
How are we resting?
Are you getting your rest timeand real rest?
Don Drew (06:34):
Jonathan, the book called The Volunteer Survival
Guide (06:36):
your question and answer resource for volunteering, by
Baker Books, and in there youtalk about different reasons why
people volunteer and almostalways we gravitate toward the
idea of wanting to make adifference, have an impact, do
something like that.
You specifically mention wantingto serve God since you, you work
(06:56):
a lot with churches and so on.
But then also people have othermotivations for volunteering,
making friends, or having funjust getting out of the house.
So is it possible that sometimeswe assume what somebody really
wants from a voluntaryexperience is different than
their own reality?
Jonathan Malm (07:13):
I think a lot of times in churches our goal is to
accomplish tasks.
And this person signed up tovolunteer because they wanna
accomplish tasks.
And honestly, that's not reallythe case.
We don't just wanna accomplishtasks.
We wanna do work that matters,but there is that friendship
element too, that I want to beinvolved with people doing
something that matters.
(07:34):
It's the community aspect of it.
And it's unfortunate that a lotof times leaders of volunteers
don't recognize that fact.
They are so focused on, checkingoff the to-do list items and
making sure all the volunteersdo all the things and they don't
reinforce the community aspect,the fun aspect, the am I doing
work to do work or does itactually matter?
(07:55):
Is there something significantto what I'm doing?
David Lowry (07:57):
I think it's possible for volunteers to fall
into this trap of findinganother job.
And and for people in the secondhalf of life, they're not really
looking for another job so muchas they are something that's
meaningful, they feel thatthey're contributing to.
But I really appreciate youpointing out that sometimes
people in paid positions have agreat temptation sometimes to
(08:21):
think of volunteers as, oh,these are the people that are
gonna help me get all this stuffdone, like an hourly employee or
something like that.
And that might not be theexperience you were going for at
all.
One of the things I spent a lotof time with many years ago,
Jonathan, was Habitat forHumanity.
I remember a lot of volunteerscoming through the organization.
(08:42):
Some of them wanted to visitwith people hoping to receive a
home from Habitat for Humanity.
Others wanted to sling a hammeror paint a room, and feel they
had contributed to building it.
Still others wanted to be in onthe planning and fundraising.
Jonathan Malm (08:55):
Sometimes as a volunteer you can't rely on the
leader getting it,unfortunately.
So sometimes you might need toget that encouragement or get
that significance for yourself.
A lot of roles are a little bitmore background.
They're maybe not directlyrelating to people.
So ask for stories.
(09:15):
Hey, I worked on that project.
What came of that?
Sometimes you have to gatherthat.
Significance for yourself.
Because unfortunately, again theleader is worried about getting
their tasks done and they're notalways realizing, oh, my
volunteers need something.
They need a little boost fromme.
They need a littleencouragement.
They need that significance bumpfrom me.
Don Drew (09:33):
Yeah, you bring up an interesting dynamic here, and
that is that the leader, ofwhatever the organization is,
the leader needs certain thingsdone.
And quite often the volunteerhas perhaps skills that they
want to use that they feel likethey're really good at and so
forth.
And would it do leadershipbetter to spend more time asking
volunteers a few more questionsabout what is most important to
(09:55):
them, what they want to do?
Jonathan Malm (09:56):
A hundred percent.
A again, I think most people arewilling to do whatever it takes.
Like whatever you want me to do,as long as it's not something
dreadful, something that's just.
mind numbing, right?
But I wanna feel like what I domatters.
I wanna feel like I'm succeedingin the role.
People wanna feel like they'relike, do I matter?
Do I have value?
Do am I successful?
Is it, am I doing a good job?
(10:17):
I.
And yeah it's worth knowing yourvolunteers well enough to know
what is significant to them.
Knowing how a volunteer feelsappreciated is really important.
David Lowry (10:29):
Another thing that's important is training.
Sometimes when organizations askfor volunteers, they forget that
really ought to be a part of theformula.
If you're going to actually askpeople to come in and do stuff,
you ought to train them.
Years ago I ran a volunteerradio station in Oklahoma City.
And it was a lot of fun ininviting local volunteers to
(10:50):
come in and host radio programsand shows and that was part of
the draw of the radio station.
But you have to train them.
Very few people coming to yourradio station oh yeah, I know
exactly how to run an audioboard and how to entertain
people on this sort of thing.
And so many other organizationstoo shouldn't forget the fact
people need to be trained.
That's an important thing, youowe it to them.
Jonathan Malm (11:10):
One of the things that often happens is people who
are good doers, are thenpromoted to leadership.
But the problem is you need tostart shifting.
What you do when you go toleadership.
You're no longer the one doing,you're the one encouraging and
equipping the people doing.
And it's a hard shift to makefor a lot of people where I like
(11:31):
doing stuff.
I'm successful at this job.
I like getting my hands dirty,but now I'm in charge of the
people that are supposed to bedoing that.
And if we're not careful, we canspend 20% of our time
encouraging people and 80% ofour time doing tasks.
And we really need to flip thatwhere it's 80% of the time
encouraging, equipping, and only20% doing tasks right?
You have to work with people.
I would encourage leaders tospend 80% of your time working
(11:53):
with people, encouraging thepeople, knowing your people,
texting your people, writing,encouraging handwritten notes to
your people, stuff like that.
David Lowry (12:01):
What are some of the tools and resources you've
found in working with volunteersthat could help other people in
their work either as a volunteeror people who are leading
volunteers?
Jonathan Malm (12:11):
There's not a lot unfortunately so that's what
I've been trying to make thoseresources.
I made a a book called Love YourVolunteers.
That's a cheat sheet on how todo that.
It gives people, note promptsthat you can text people during
the week.
Prayer prompts, again, if you'rea, if you're a Christian, to
pray for your volunteers.
Huddle ideas.
That thing before you do thething where you get together and
everyone gets on the same page.
Some ideas on how to hold avolunteer huddle.
(12:33):
Just a lot of differentresources, a lot of different
tools to help leaders do thatwell.
But it's tough.
There aren't a lot of resourcesout there.
The goal for the VolunteerSurvival Guide was something
that we wrote more for leadersto be able to give their
volunteers to say, Hey, here'show you're going to thrive here.
Here's how you're going toreally get the most from this
experience.
Because you should it's not allgiving.
(12:54):
There is a value in when youvolunteer, you get.
You get that boost.
It feels good.
It feels exciting.
And it's okay to look for that.
Don Drew (13:02):
I did a little research on burnout before this
program, and I was looking atone person's ideas about how you
look for burnout in volunteers.
And there were four things theyhighlighted.
One was a lack of energy and lowmood.
The second was irritability thatcould be attributed to many
different things.
So as a leader, you're notnecessarily gonna be able to
attribute that to theirvolunteerism.
(13:23):
But the last two I thought wereinteresting.
It was difficulty focusing andprocrastination.
And I thought about how inworking with volunteers in the
past, how sometimes somebodyyou've been able to count on
them to do things when they saythey will all of a sudden you
find that they're not followingthrough, not completing their
task and so on.
That's probably a pretty goodsign of burnout to look for.
(13:46):
Would you agree?
Jonathan Malm (13:47):
Burnout is one of those tough things.
I equate it to anxiety ordepression, right?
There are times in life where Ifeel depressed or I feel
anxiety.
Does that mean that I have acycle or a clinical diagnosis of
anxiety or depression?
There's instances or there'scycles, there's downward
spirals.
And with burnout, there areseasons of life where I'm burnt
out.
I'm in a crazy season right witha toddler and a baby where I
(14:08):
feel exhausted regularly.
There are probably some timesthat I drop the ball and that
doesn't necessarily mean I'mgoing to burnout, right?
I am burnt out, but I'm not in acycle of burnout.
But then there are times whenI've been going down this road
for too long.
So, one of the best things youcan do is talk to your
volunteers, say, Hey, here'swhat I'm sensing, what's going
on, not assuming, not castingjudgment on anything.
(14:31):
One of the things in Don't BurnOut, Burn Bright we talk about
is you no longer feel brilliantat the basics.
The things that you used to belike, I can always deliver on
this, I can always kill it withthis one thing that I do really
well.
But suddenly it doesn't feellike I'm brilliant at it.
It feels like it's a strugglefor me.
That's one of those things forsure.
But again it's, there's seasonswhere that's normal or then
there's actually burnout and wehave to be able to distinguish
(14:52):
that.
David Lowry (14:53):
When you have people volunteering I think
there's this initial surge of, Iwanna help out any way I can.
I wanna be there for you, and Iwanna give all my talents and
abilities.
I've got so much to offer.
And then there's this coolingoff period where it's like, Hey,
this is, there's a lot of stuffto do here.
Jonathan Malm (15:11):
The honeymoon is over.
David Lowry (15:12):
Yeah, the honeymoon is over.
I don't know if I signed up forall of that.
Let's see if we can create a fewreasonable rules for volunteers.
You mentioned one of them, comein humbly.
Don't assume you knoweverything.
Don't assume you know more thanthe people who are doing the job
every day for a living and youmay have done other things
similar to that.
Jonathan Malm (15:29):
Honestly, one of the things that I tell people
that maybe feel a little bitdiscouraged in their role is
often we look for tasks that areof interest to us.
And that can work.
That can work really well.
But another thing that Iencourage people is, if you're
not loving your role, even ifit's something you enjoy doing,
I would almost recommend you,get to know the leadership team
(15:49):
or the people in charge and findsomeone that you love and that
you respect or find a team that,wow, that team sounds fun.
Even though I might notnecessarily be skilled in that
area, or that might not normallybe the type of thing that I'm
drawn to.
I would look for the leadershipand team that I wanna join
because again, I mean they sayteamwork makes the dream work,
right?
That teamwork aspect can makeyou feel alive.
(16:11):
My wife works as a physicaltherapist and she likes the work
at some hospitals better thanothers.
But I find that she comes backmore energized from the place
where she doesn't enjoy the workas much, but she enjoys the team
more.
She enjoys her boss, she enjoysthe people she works with.
It's the same thing withvolunteering, right?
If you can get on a team where,man, I love these people.
I look forward to being aroundthem.
(16:31):
Even if we're not doinganything, I just look forward to
being around them.
That's huge.
Don Drew (16:34):
One of the things I really love about my volunteer
experience is that I am able touse certain skills I already
have, which is nice.
But I also on a daily basis areI am able to learn new things,
and I like that combination.
And of course, not everybody'sgonna be like me.
But taking charge, if you willof your own volunteer
experience, I think is part ofwhat you're saying is that take
charge of it, figure out what itis that means something to you
(16:57):
and work towards that end.
And if it's working as part of ateam, that can be a very
important motivator.
Jonathan Malm (17:02):
Yeah, usually the reason we volunteer is because
we're drawn to something thathappened to us in our past,
right?
Somebody made us feel important.
Or somebody somebody camethrough for us when we felt
like, things were impossible andthey did something for us.
So, there's a very specialmoment usually that happens in
our past that we're hoping torepeat for someone else.
And so really staying keyed inwith why do I volunteer?
(17:24):
What moment am I trying torecreate for other people?
Then look for ways to do that.
Again the role that is given toyou in a church for instance,
you might be tasked with parkingcars, right?
Like it's not a very excitingrole, especially in Texas heat
to, to tell a car where to park,right?
But that's not really whatyou're giving people when you're
parking cars.
Instead, what you're doing isyou're the first welcoming face
(17:45):
when people drive onto a parkinglot.
David Lowry (17:47):
Another thing to keep in mind is, if you're going
to volunteer, be consistent.
People count on you.
If you decide to volunteer atchurch, they ought to be able to
count on you to be there.
The people gotta be able todepend on you.
If you're teaching a kid to readat the local school they really
need you to be there when theyhave those reading periods.
Because they're really countingon you.
(18:09):
So, take it seriously and showup and don't volunteer for more
than can actually do.
And don't be afraid to go slowin the beginning.
Jonathan Malm (18:17):
I think it goes back to that idea of tell them
when you can be there and thenwhen you're there, be there,
like a hundred percent.
When I'm volunteering at mychurch, they're like, Hey,
Jonathan, I know you're doingthis right now, that's your role
this morning, but you could youdo this for us too?
And I'm like, yes!
Don Drew (18:29):
Jonathan, people can find out about
you@wwwjonathanmalm.com.
That's M A L M dot com.
They can find about you and yourbooks.
Can you tell us about yourlatest work?
Jonathan Malm (18:41):
So, I have a new book coming out may 1st.
I don't know when this will golive, called Likable Leader.
It's primarily, for leaders.
It's how to become a leader thatpeople love to follow.
My most recent book that I cameout with was Don't Burn Out,
burn Bright focusing more on theleadership aspect, but we made
sure that there was a lot ofgood nuggets there for anyone
involved in any, to any sort ofleadership.
(19:02):
But Yeah, then this, theVolunteer Survival Guide is one
that I think for this audiencewould make a lot of sense to
pick up.
It's on Amazon.
It's very inexpensive.
It's a very short, read.
It's meant to be verydigestible, very highlightable.
Not a lot of fluff.
So I encourage you to pick thatup.
David Lowry (19:16):
Do you have any digital opportunities at your
church?
Are there other organizationsthat you know of that have
digital opportunities?
Jonathan Malm (19:22):
Yeah, there are a ton of opportunities digitally,
and it's fun.
It's kind of crazy, but it'skind of fun too the new
landscape of digital that wehave in this world.
My church has a whole mediateam.
It's probably like 20 peoplethat are doing photography,
coming up with ideas for postson social media, a ton of
things.
We're in a digital world rightnow and a lot of people are
trying to figure out how wereach people in these spaces.
(19:46):
The fun thing is that everysocial media platform has its
own demographic.
Facebook is a little bit more ofthe older crowd.
Instagram is the millennialcrowd.
TikTok is the Gen Z crowd.
So you can find the social mediaplatform that you love and
thrive in.
And, there's need for moderatorsto make sure that the content is
in line with, the standards fora group.
There are tons of opportunitieslike that.
(20:07):
Yeah.
David Lowry (20:07):
So many opportunities to volunteer.
Whatever it is you're interestedin, I assure you there is
somebody out there who needs ahelping hand and if you are
willing to make a difference inyour life you should do it.
Don Drew (20:20):
Jonathan Malm, author of the Volunteer Survival Guide,
your Question and AnswerResource for Volunteering and
other books related tovolunteerism and volunteer
leadership.
Thank you for being with us hereon Peaceful Life Radio.
We so appreciate you.
Jonathan Malm (20:34):
Glad to be here.
A lot of times leaders of volunteers are so
(00:02):
focused on, checking off theto-do list items and making sure
all the volunteers do all thethings and they don't reinforce
the community aspect, the funaspect, the am I doing work to
do work or does it actuallymatter?
David Lowry (00:15):
Hello everyone and welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
That was Jonathan Malm just now.
He's our guest on our programtoday, and it's a very exciting
show.
I'm David Lowry, and with me isDon Drew.
Don, how are you doing?
Don Drew (00:27):
I'm doing great, David, and we want to welcome
all our listeners today.
Jonathan is an entrepreneur andauthor, helping churches figure
out how to best treat andutilize volunteers, provide
hospitality, avoid burnout, anduse social media effectively.
He lives in San Antonio, Texaswith his wife and two young
boys.
And he has a very interestingwebsite, by the way.
I was able to find that he hasobsessions.
(00:50):
Amongst his obsessions are Nitrocold brew and Cajun food.
So, Hey Jonathan.
Welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
We're glad to have you heretoday.
Jonathan Malm (00:59):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Don Drew (01:00):
I want to start with what does it take to have an
excellent volunteer experience?
Jonathan Malm (01:06):
Yeah, depending on your situation, sometimes you
can be a little overenthusiastic and you can get
into burnout.
Or sometimes the person who'sleading you can be a little over
enthusiastic and try to get morefrom you than maybe you wanna
give.
So, I found that one of the bestthings, both from a volunteer
perspective and from a leaderperspective, is healthy
boundaries.
(01:26):
When I volunteer at my church,one of the things that I tell
them is while I'm here you haveme a hundred percent of the
time.
It's like you have all of me, ahundred percent whatever you
need I'm there for it.
But I'm not always gonna bethere.
Right?
I'm not always volunteering.
So, the boundaries, let me sayyes joyfully and let me say no
and not feel guilty about it,right?
(01:46):
I can say yes.
Happily, yes, I would love to dothat.
And then whenever I have to sayno, it's because, no, I really
shouldn't do that.
And yeah, it's very intentionalabout setting boundaries.
I think that's one of the bestways to really have a good
volunteer experience.
David Lowry (01:59):
Jonathan, when we think of volunteering in the
second half of life, so many ofus are hoping to give back.
We've had a rich life.
We've experienced many thingsand we wanna leave a legacy of
service, use that spare timeinstead of sitting down and
watching TV or being bored orsomething like that.
We wanna use our livesproductively.
(02:20):
Talk to us about some of theexperiences that could be
available for somebody who wantsto volunteer and do something
meaningful with their life whilethey're in their golden years.
Jonathan Malm (02:31):
I find that one of the problems with a volunteer
leader working with people whoare older is there's a lot of
insecurity.
If you're a young leader workingwith an older person.
The older person has a lot ofyears of experience, a lot of
wisdom, and sometimes that canfeel threatening for a leader.
One of the best things I wouldencourage anyone older to do is
(02:54):
lead with a sense of humility.
Obviously you have wisdom,obviously you have that, but
there's this sort of thing thatneeds to happen where you
approach it almost asking.
It's like this kind of thiswisdom thing you do whenever
you're, you, it's almost likeleading from the bottom right?
You ask questions to get themwhere you want them to go,
right?
Not in a manipulative way, butunderstanding that there's a lot
of insecurity that can sometimesbe involved with leaders.
(03:17):
Because otherwise, I thinksometimes what happens is you
get relegated to a lessinfluential role.
Like, oh yeah, we want you to bea nice greeter.
We want you to smile and wavebecause it's easy to dismiss
people's wisdom and what theyhave to offer if you feel
threatened by them.
So there are a lot ofopportunities.
All that said, don't just Settlefor being the smiling greeter
(03:39):
that is so often, especially inchurch roles.
You can have real influence.
You can really have an impact,but it often takes that kind of
humility that, teachteachability.
But it's even just a posture ofhumility toward people that
don't know as much as you.
Never lead the way with answers.
Lead the way with questions andthat gives the opportunity to
(04:00):
have a lot of influence.
Don Drew (04:00):
In my case, I volunteer at the local zoo quite
a bit.
And I went in there with theattitude that I was going to try
to consciously not take aleadership position, which was
actually challenging for me.
I was working almost exclusivelywith a bunch of young people,
and I wanted to make sure thatthey had a chance to find their
(04:21):
own way to lead and so forthwithout me necessarily jumping
in and trying to do something,even though sometimes I could
see a better way to do it.
Jonathan Malm (04:28):
If you have years of experience of having climbed
corporate ladders or have dealtwith people that, like I've seen
the situation 50 different ways.
And I have the solution.
And that can feel threatening toyounger people because it's a
lot of insecurity.
I've noticed that arrogance orbravado, or whatever you wanna
call it, is usually coming froma place of insecurity.
(04:50):
The almost ironic thing aboutleadership is sometimes when you
encourage insecure people, theybecome less insecure and give
you more input into their lives.
I've experienced that so manytimes where you know what I
thought I should kind of hammerthem down.
As a leader, I thought I shouldconfront that arrogance head on
and realizing that they actuallyneeded encouragement to grow
(05:10):
into a role of leadership.
David Lowry (05:12):
So many volunteers are driven by passion, and
sometimes that can lead to overcommitment.
You mentioned earlier that youhave boundaries, but I also
think it's good for volunteersto know their boundaries.
You have another book calledDon't Burn Out, burn Bright that
I think might have a littlesomething to do as well about
our work as volunteers.
Jonathan Malm (05:33):
Most definitely.
Me and my co-writer, we've found10 things, 10 pillars of health
that will keep you from burningout, right?
One of those is rest, obviously.
But in our modern world,whenever you're a farmer and you
were working the fields, youneeded rest for your body
because you were activelyengaged in physical labor and
you needed rest.
We are not doing as muchphysical labor nowadays, so we
(05:57):
don't need as much rest for ourbodies.
In fact, we should probably beworking out a little bit more.
We should probably activate ourbodies a little bit more.
But what we need instead ismental, emotional rest.
A way to rest our minds.
And unfortunately some things inour lives can simulate rest, but
not actually provide rest.
Social media for me is one ofthose where I can spend two
(06:19):
hours scrolling on social media.
It's downtime.
It's unwinding time.
But I don't feel rested.
I don't feel any more energized.
That's not rest to me.
So it's very important that wechoose our rest carefully.
How are we resting?
Are you getting your rest timeand real rest?
Don Drew (06:34):
Jonathan, the book called The Volunteer Survival
Guide (06:36):
your question and answer resource for volunteering, by
Baker Books, and in there youtalk about different reasons why
people volunteer and almostalways we gravitate toward the
idea of wanting to make adifference, have an impact, do
something like that.
You specifically mention wantingto serve God since you, you work
(06:56):
a lot with churches and so on.
But then also people have othermotivations for volunteering,
making friends, or having funjust getting out of the house.
So is it possible that sometimeswe assume what somebody really
wants from a voluntaryexperience is different than
their own reality?
Jonathan Malm (07:13):
I think a lot of times in churches our goal is to
accomplish tasks.
And this person signed up tovolunteer because they wanna
accomplish tasks.
And honestly, that's not reallythe case.
We don't just wanna accomplishtasks.
We wanna do work that matters,but there is that friendship
element too, that I want to beinvolved with people doing
something that matters.
(07:34):
It's the community aspect of it.
And it's unfortunate that a lotof times leaders of volunteers
don't recognize that fact.
They are so focused on, checkingoff the to-do list items and
making sure all the volunteersdo all the things and they don't
reinforce the community aspect,the fun aspect, the am I doing
work to do work or does itactually matter?
(07:55):
Is there something significantto what I'm doing?
David Lowry (07:57):
I think it's possible for volunteers to fall
into this trap of findinganother job.
And and for people in the secondhalf of life, they're not really
looking for another job so muchas they are something that's
meaningful, they feel thatthey're contributing to.
But I really appreciate youpointing out that sometimes
people in paid positions have agreat temptation sometimes to
(08:21):
think of volunteers as, oh,these are the people that are
gonna help me get all this stuffdone, like an hourly employee or
something like that.
And that might not be theexperience you were going for at
all.
One of the things I spent a lotof time with many years ago,
Jonathan, was Habitat forHumanity.
I remember a lot of volunteerscoming through the organization.
(08:42):
Some of them wanted to visitwith people hoping to receive a
home from Habitat for Humanity.
Others wanted to sling a hammeror paint a room, and feel they
had contributed to building it.
Still others wanted to be in onthe planning and fundraising.
Jonathan Malm (08:55):
Sometimes as a volunteer you can't rely on the
leader getting it,unfortunately.
So sometimes you might need toget that encouragement or get
that significance for yourself.
A lot of roles are a little bitmore background.
They're maybe not directlyrelating to people.
So ask for stories.
(09:15):
Hey, I worked on that project.
What came of that?
Sometimes you have to gatherthat.
Significance for yourself.
Because unfortunately, again theleader is worried about getting
their tasks done and they're notalways realizing, oh, my
volunteers need something.
They need a little boost fromme.
They need a littleencouragement.
They need that significance bumpfrom me.
Don Drew (09:33):
Yeah, you bring up an interesting dynamic here, and
that is that the leader, ofwhatever the organization is,
the leader needs certain thingsdone.
And quite often the volunteerhas perhaps skills that they
want to use that they feel likethey're really good at and so
forth.
And would it do leadershipbetter to spend more time asking
volunteers a few more questionsabout what is most important to
(09:55):
them, what they want to do?
Jonathan Malm (09:56):
A hundred percent.
A again, I think most people arewilling to do whatever it takes.
Like whatever you want me to do,as long as it's not something
dreadful, something that's just.
mind numbing, right?
But I wanna feel like what I domatters.
I wanna feel like I'm succeedingin the role.
People wanna feel like they'relike, do I matter?
Do I have value?
Do am I successful?
Is it, am I doing a good job?
(10:17):
I.
And yeah it's worth knowing yourvolunteers well enough to know
what is significant to them.
Knowing how a volunteer feelsappreciated is really important.
David Lowry (10:29):
Another thing that's important is training.
Sometimes when organizations askfor volunteers, they forget that
really ought to be a part of theformula.
If you're going to actually askpeople to come in and do stuff,
you ought to train them.
Years ago I ran a volunteerradio station in Oklahoma City.
And it was a lot of fun ininviting local volunteers to
(10:50):
come in and host radio programsand shows and that was part of
the draw of the radio station.
But you have to train them.
Very few people coming to yourradio station oh yeah, I know
exactly how to run an audioboard and how to entertain
people on this sort of thing.
And so many other organizationstoo shouldn't forget the fact
people need to be trained.
That's an important thing, youowe it to them.
Jonathan Malm (11:10):
One of the things that often happens is people who
are good doers, are thenpromoted to leadership.
But the problem is you need tostart shifting.
What you do when you go toleadership.
You're no longer the one doing,you're the one encouraging and
equipping the people doing.
And it's a hard shift to makefor a lot of people where I like
(11:31):
doing stuff.
I'm successful at this job.
I like getting my hands dirty,but now I'm in charge of the
people that are supposed to bedoing that.
And if we're not careful, we canspend 20% of our time
encouraging people and 80% ofour time doing tasks.
And we really need to flip thatwhere it's 80% of the time
encouraging, equipping, and only20% doing tasks right?
You have to work with people.
I would encourage leaders tospend 80% of your time working
(11:53):
with people, encouraging thepeople, knowing your people,
texting your people, writing,encouraging handwritten notes to
your people, stuff like that.
David Lowry (12:01):
What are some of the tools and resources you've
found in working with volunteersthat could help other people in
their work either as a volunteeror people who are leading
volunteers?
Jonathan Malm (12:11):
There's not a lot unfortunately so that's what
I've been trying to make thoseresources.
I made a a book called Love YourVolunteers.
That's a cheat sheet on how todo that.
It gives people, note promptsthat you can text people during
the week.
Prayer prompts, again, if you'rea, if you're a Christian, to
pray for your volunteers.
Huddle ideas.
That thing before you do thething where you get together and
everyone gets on the same page.
Some ideas on how to hold avolunteer huddle.
(12:33):
Just a lot of differentresources, a lot of different
tools to help leaders do thatwell.
But it's tough.
There aren't a lot of resourcesout there.
The goal for the VolunteerSurvival Guide was something
that we wrote more for leadersto be able to give their
volunteers to say, Hey, here'show you're going to thrive here.
Here's how you're going toreally get the most from this
experience.
Because you should it's not allgiving.
(12:54):
There is a value in when youvolunteer, you get.
You get that boost.
It feels good.
It feels exciting.
And it's okay to look for that.
Don Drew (13:02):
I did a little research on burnout before this
program, and I was looking atone person's ideas about how you
look for burnout in volunteers.
And there were four things theyhighlighted.
One was a lack of energy and lowmood.
The second was irritability thatcould be attributed to many
different things.
So as a leader, you're notnecessarily gonna be able to
attribute that to theirvolunteerism.
(13:23):
But the last two I thought wereinteresting.
It was difficulty focusing andprocrastination.
And I thought about how inworking with volunteers in the
past, how sometimes somebodyyou've been able to count on
them to do things when they saythey will all of a sudden you
find that they're not followingthrough, not completing their
task and so on.
That's probably a pretty goodsign of burnout to look for.
(13:46):
Would you agree?
Jonathan Malm (13:47):
Burnout is one of those tough things.
I equate it to anxiety ordepression, right?
There are times in life where Ifeel depressed or I feel
anxiety.
Does that mean that I have acycle or a clinical diagnosis of
anxiety or depression?
There's instances or there'scycles, there's downward
spirals.
And with burnout, there areseasons of life where I'm burnt
out.
I'm in a crazy season right witha toddler and a baby where I
(14:08):
feel exhausted regularly.
There are probably some timesthat I drop the ball and that
doesn't necessarily mean I'mgoing to burnout, right?
I am burnt out, but I'm not in acycle of burnout.
But then there are times whenI've been going down this road
for too long.
So, one of the best things youcan do is talk to your
volunteers, say, Hey, here'swhat I'm sensing, what's going
on, not assuming, not castingjudgment on anything.
(14:31):
One of the things in Don't BurnOut, Burn Bright we talk about
is you no longer feel brilliantat the basics.
The things that you used to belike, I can always deliver on
this, I can always kill it withthis one thing that I do really
well.
But suddenly it doesn't feellike I'm brilliant at it.
It feels like it's a strugglefor me.
That's one of those things forsure.
But again it's, there's seasonswhere that's normal or then
there's actually burnout and wehave to be able to distinguish
(14:52):
that.
David Lowry (14:53):
When you have people volunteering I think
there's this initial surge of, Iwanna help out any way I can.
I wanna be there for you, and Iwanna give all my talents and
abilities.
I've got so much to offer.
And then there's this coolingoff period where it's like, Hey,
this is, there's a lot of stuffto do here.
Jonathan Malm (15:11):
The honeymoon is over.
David Lowry (15:12):
Yeah, the honeymoon is over.
I don't know if I signed up forall of that.
Let's see if we can create a fewreasonable rules for volunteers.
You mentioned one of them, comein humbly.
Don't assume you knoweverything.
Don't assume you know more thanthe people who are doing the job
every day for a living and youmay have done other things
similar to that.
Jonathan Malm (15:29):
Honestly, one of the things that I tell people
that maybe feel a little bitdiscouraged in their role is
often we look for tasks that areof interest to us.
And that can work.
That can work really well.
But another thing that Iencourage people is, if you're
not loving your role, even ifit's something you enjoy doing,
I would almost recommend you,get to know the leadership team
(15:49):
or the people in charge and findsomeone that you love and that
you respect or find a team that,wow, that team sounds fun.
Even though I might notnecessarily be skilled in that
area, or that might not normallybe the type of thing that I'm
drawn to.
I would look for the leadershipand team that I wanna join
because again, I mean they sayteamwork makes the dream work,
right?
That teamwork aspect can makeyou feel alive.
(16:11):
My wife works as a physicaltherapist and she likes the work
at some hospitals better thanothers.
But I find that she comes backmore energized from the place
where she doesn't enjoy the workas much, but she enjoys the team
more.
She enjoys her boss, she enjoysthe people she works with.
It's the same thing withvolunteering, right?
If you can get on a team where,man, I love these people.
I look forward to being aroundthem.
(16:31):
Even if we're not doinganything, I just look forward to
being around them.
That's huge.
Don Drew (16:34):
One of the things I really love about my volunteer
experience is that I am able touse certain skills I already
have, which is nice.
But I also on a daily basis areI am able to learn new things,
and I like that combination.
And of course, not everybody'sgonna be like me.
But taking charge, if you willof your own volunteer
experience, I think is part ofwhat you're saying is that take
charge of it, figure out what itis that means something to you
(16:57):
and work towards that end.
And if it's working as part of ateam, that can be a very
important motivator.
Jonathan Malm (17:02):
Yeah, usually the reason we volunteer is because
we're drawn to something thathappened to us in our past,
right?
Somebody made us feel important.
Or somebody somebody camethrough for us when we felt
like, things were impossible andthey did something for us.
So, there's a very specialmoment usually that happens in
our past that we're hoping torepeat for someone else.
And so really staying keyed inwith why do I volunteer?
(17:24):
What moment am I trying torecreate for other people?
Then look for ways to do that.
Again the role that is given toyou in a church for instance,
you might be tasked with parkingcars, right?
Like it's not a very excitingrole, especially in Texas heat
to, to tell a car where to park,right?
But that's not really whatyou're giving people when you're
parking cars.
Instead, what you're doing isyou're the first welcoming face
(17:45):
when people drive onto a parkinglot.
David Lowry (17:47):
Another thing to keep in mind is, if you're going
to volunteer, be consistent.
People count on you.
If you decide to volunteer atchurch, they ought to be able to
count on you to be there.
The people gotta be able todepend on you.
If you're teaching a kid to readat the local school they really
need you to be there when theyhave those reading periods.
Because they're really countingon you.
(18:09):
So, take it seriously and showup and don't volunteer for more
than can actually do.
And don't be afraid to go slowin the beginning.
Jonathan Malm (18:17):
I think it goes back to that idea of tell them
when you can be there and thenwhen you're there, be there,
like a hundred percent.
When I'm volunteering at mychurch, they're like, Hey,
Jonathan, I know you're doingthis right now, that's your role
this morning, but you could youdo this for us too?
And I'm like, yes!
Don Drew (18:29):
Jonathan, people can find out about
you@wwwjonathanmalm.com.
That's M A L M dot com.
They can find about you and yourbooks.
Can you tell us about yourlatest work?
Jonathan Malm (18:41):
So, I have a new book coming out may 1st.
I don't know when this will golive, called Likable Leader.
It's primarily, for leaders.
It's how to become a leader thatpeople love to follow.
My most recent book that I cameout with was Don't Burn Out,
burn Bright focusing more on theleadership aspect, but we made
sure that there was a lot ofgood nuggets there for anyone
involved in any, to any sort ofleadership.
(19:02):
But Yeah, then this, theVolunteer Survival Guide is one
that I think for this audiencewould make a lot of sense to
pick up.
It's on Amazon.
It's very inexpensive.
It's a very short, read.
It's meant to be verydigestible, very highlightable.
Not a lot of fluff.
So I encourage you to pick thatup.
David Lowry (19:16):
Do you have any digital opportunities at your
church?
Are there other organizationsthat you know of that have
digital opportunities?
Jonathan Malm (19:22):
Yeah, there are a ton of opportunities digitally,
and it's fun.
It's kind of crazy, but it'skind of fun too the new
landscape of digital that wehave in this world.
My church has a whole mediateam.
It's probably like 20 peoplethat are doing photography,
coming up with ideas for postson social media, a ton of
things.
We're in a digital world rightnow and a lot of people are
trying to figure out how wereach people in these spaces.
(19:46):
The fun thing is that everysocial media platform has its
own demographic.
Facebook is a little bit more ofthe older crowd.
Instagram is the millennialcrowd.
TikTok is the Gen Z crowd.
So you can find the social mediaplatform that you love and
thrive in.
And, there's need for moderatorsto make sure that the content is
in line with, the standards fora group.
There are tons of opportunitieslike that.
(20:07):
Yeah.
David Lowry (20:07):
So many opportunities to volunteer.
Whatever it is you're interestedin, I assure you there is
somebody out there who needs ahelping hand and if you are
willing to make a difference inyour life you should do it.
Don Drew (20:20):
Jonathan Malm, author of the Volunteer Survival Guide,
your Question and AnswerResource for Volunteering and
other books related tovolunteerism and volunteer
leadership.
Thank you for being with us hereon Peaceful Life Radio.
We so appreciate you.
Jonathan Malm (20:34):
Glad to be here.
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