May 18, 2025 • 26 mins
Navigating Aging and Masculine Identity: Insights from Adrienne Matei
In this insightful episode of Peaceful Life Radio, hosted by David Lowry and Don Drew, journalist Adrienne Matei delves into the challenges aging men face with changing masculine identities. The conversation explores Adrienne's Guardian article, addressing how older men grapple with shifting roles and self-worth. The discussion covers topics like hegemonic masculinity, the impact of longer lifespans, and the importance of self-compassion and intergenerational communication. Adrienne shares experiences from her interviews and highlights psychologist Karen Skerrett's six tasks for positive aging. The episode concludes with a call for better family conversations and societal representation of elderhood.
00:00 Introduction to Hegemonic Masculinity
00:30 Meet Our Guest: Adrienne Matei
01:38 Discussion on Boomer Men's Identity
04:36 Impact of Longevity and Medical Advances
07:21 Six Tasks for Positive Aging
10:40 Intergenerational Communication
17:58 Jeremy's Story: A Personal Insight
23:57 Concluding Thoughts and Future Work
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adrienne Matei (00:00):
We sometimes hear older men be down on
(00:03):
themselves when they feel likethey're no longer able to
perform certain tasks that theyused to do.
Like I can't drive anymore, so Iam useless.
Hegemonic masculinityessentially tells men that being
worthy means being useful, beingstrong, being self-sufficient,
being in control, and whenability to be productive starts
(00:23):
to change, it can feel liketheir sense of identity is
changing in ways they might notbe happy with.
David Lowry (00:30):
That was Adrienne Matei our guest on today's
program.
Welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
This is David Lowry, and with metoday is my good friend Don
Drew.
Don Drew (00:40):
Hello everyone.
David Lowry (00:41):
Don, I'm really excited about the show today.
Why don't you introduce ourguests and tell us a little bit
about what's ahead.
Don Drew (00:47):
Absolutely David.
We have with us today AdrienneMatei, who is a Vancouver based
journalist with over a decade ofexperience in culture oriented
reporting.
She's a graduate of ColumbiaUniversity's Master of
Journalism Program.
She was awarded the prestigiousPulitzer Fellowship in Arts
Criticism and her work spans awide range of topics including
(01:08):
wellness, technology, andidentity.
You can find her work in majorpublications such as The
Guardian, the Atlantic BusinessInsider, the Wall Street
Journal, and the New York Times,among others.
Adrienne offers her readers afresh perspective on
complexities in modern life.
Today she joins us to discussthe article she wrote in The
Guardian back in Februaryentitled, He kept going until he
(01:30):
couldn't.
Why do Boomer men refuse to slowdown?
Adrienne, welcome to PeacefulLife Radio.
Adrienne Matei (01:36):
Hello.
Thank you so much for having me.
David Lowry (01:38):
Adrienne, I really relate to that title because I
think I'm one of those guys.
Adrienne Matei (01:44):
Well, I'm glad that you relate, David.
You know, had a working titlefor this piece that was a little
bit different.
It was called, It's Entirely Hisidentity to be a doer.
When Aging Men Refuse to slowDown.
So I don't think that this issomething that is limited to
boomer men, exclusively, butthat is the demographic of some
of the sources that I ended upspeaking with for the piece.
Don Drew (02:05):
I'm so glad you opened with that because one of the
things I wanted to ask you aboutis when you talk about identity,
and that really comes out inyour article, how did you
picture that for these, men whoare of boomer age, which, for
our listeners is generally gonnabe roughly over 60 at this
point.
Adrienne Matei (02:21):
Yeah, this is a story about aging and masculine
identities, traditionalmasculine identities, which are
sometimes referred to ashegemonic masculinity.
And that is an approach tomasculinity where men are
defining their self-worththrough these ideals, like
productivity, power, andcontrol.
Hegemonic masculinityessentially tells men that being
(02:44):
worthy means being useful, beingstrong, being self-sufficient,
being in control, and whenability to be productive starts
to change, it can feel liketheir sense of identity is
changing in ways they might notbe happy with.
David Lowry (02:59):
When I hear this, all sorts of things go through
me.
Just so people will know, I cameonto the planet in 1953, so I
definitely qualify for thepeople that you're describing
here.
Career was really important.
The first thing that men wouldsay, Well, what kind of work do
you do?
And as we hit retirement, peoplesay, now that you're retired,
(03:21):
what are you going to do?
And this whole question is like,you gotta have something amazing
ahead for you and I'm sittinghere going, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
Adrienne Matei (03:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There can be this associationwith identity and worthiness and
productivity and achievementrather than a comfortable sense
of value in who you are as aperson.
Don Drew (03:43):
You make a great point, David.
I've always noticed,particularly men who have been
my age throughout my career,when we meet, the first thing we
want to know is what do you do?
And I think one of the reasonswe do that is we're trying to
understand somebody's identitybased upon what they do.
For instance, I have a career inuniversity life, I've been a
professor and that defines a lotof my identity and what I am.
(04:05):
And I retired last year and Iknow that I really struggled
trying to figure out what'snext.
It was only after I began towrestle with the idea that I did
not have to prove something thatI started to relax a little bit
and I'm enjoying retirementfinally.
I'm still very active, but notin a career.
(04:26):
And men like me often strugglewith that.
And that's why when I readAdrienne's article, I was so
impressed with her view of that.
But she also brought in severalother things.
Adrienne.
You brought up for instancerising longevity and advancing
medical care and the fact thatwe're living longer and so
forth.
And how did you interpret thosekinds of things impacting men's
lives?
Adrienne Matei (04:47):
This is a story that's part of a bigger
demographic shift.
The Boomer generation really isentering a longer elderhood than
any of their predecessors, andthat is to do with modern
medicine and all of thesechanges that have happened over
the last century.
But what it hasn't done is setthis generation up with role
(05:10):
models for positive aging intolonger elderhoods, or a sense of
what their elderhoods could looklike.
So, I talked to some older menafter writing this article who
were saying to me like you know,I almost never really realized
that I was going to have so muchtime after retirement or what
that time was gonna look like.
Don Drew (05:29):
You quote in your article from the University of
Alabama Birmingham, a study thatsays this, and this is a quote
says, masculine identity upholdsbeliefs about masculine
enactment.
When you say enactment, what doyou mean by that?
Adrienne Matei (05:41):
Yeah, so that's how we identify ourselves
through what we're able to do.
Like, can you be the doer?
Can you be the guy who fixes thehole on the roof?
Can you be the guy who is ableto drive, protect your family or
do all of these things and howdoes that reflect upon your
identity?
And this study was reallyinteresting because they were
(06:04):
measuring all of these differentideas of how much people
prescribe to hegemonic ideals.
Like are you somebody who isvery much in favor of the idea
that bigger, stronger men aremore attractive to women, and
men shouldn't cry, and it'simportant for men to hide if
they are having any pain?
(06:26):
And what they found through thestudy is that people sorted
themselves into three groups.
People who were very keen onupholding hegemonic ideals,
people who were sort of in themiddle, and then people who
dismissed them and didn't reallyrelate to them.
And the more you wanted touphold these hegemonic ideals,
or the more you believed inthem, the worse health outcomes
(06:47):
you had.
So as men age, the studysuggests that you need to
rethink what it means to bemasculine or suffer poor health
outcomes, which I found reallyinteresting.
David Lowry (06:58):
One of the things that I find interesting about
this conversation is that wehaven't had anyone really tell
us, speaking for my generationwhat a retirement look like,
where you had more years thanthe people before you to live
and explore life in a differentway.
What would that look like?
And I'm curious, as you thinkabout this and did your
(07:18):
research, what do you think thatmight look like?
Adrienne Matei (07:21):
So there was actually somebody who I
interviewed for this piece namedKaren Skerrett, who is a
psychologist, and she proposedthese six tasks to help people
develop what she calls arealistic, accommodating, and
hopeful perception of thefuture.
And those tasks includeacknowledging and accepting the
realities of aging, normalizingangst about the future, active
(07:44):
reminiscence, accommodatingphysical, cognitive and social
changes, searching for newemotionally meaningful goals,
and expanding one's capacity totolerate ambiguity.
I would definitely recommendlooking up at Karen Skerrett and
this research report if you'reinterested in learning more
about that.
I know that she has a book aboutnavigating aging as a couple
(08:08):
that might be really interestingfor people.
But overall, these tasks areaiming to help people
recharacterize aging as atransition that is a phase of
life, that is interesting in itsown right, even though it
requires adaptability andgrowth, and foresight, and to
help people resist this conceptthat she refers to as premature
(08:28):
foreclosure, which is thisnotion that their life stories
have ended or that you are nolonger valuable just because one
thing or some things that youused to do might not be
realistic for you anymore.
I think that we sometimes hearolder men be down on themselves
(08:48):
in ways when they feel likethey're no longer able to
perform certain tasks that theyused to do.
Like I can't drive anymore, so Iam useless.
And the underlyingself-perception of that is cruel
to oneself because you have somuch value as a human being, and
especially in elderhood, thewisdom that you have accrued and
(09:11):
the presence that you havecultivated.
Our elders are so meaningful inour lives, and younger
generations value your presenceand we value you for who you
are.
And sometimes I think insituations when we have older
men, especially who we love, ina position where we feel like we
have to convince them that theyare enough that's a sad and
difficult thing.
David Lowry (09:32):
I'd like to think of the Boomer generation as the
parents of Gen X, Gen Z and allthe other ones that have come
after them.
So this is a personal questionto you, Adrienne, as someone
who's not in this Boomergeneration, how would you like
us to be?
Adrienne Matei (09:48):
I think that millennials and younger
generations are coming of age ordid come of age in a time with a
very different outlook on theemotional inner self than
Boomers did.
I think it was very common forBoomers to be raised with some
very pragmatic, no nonsenseparenthood.
(10:08):
Therapy was not necessarilynormalized when Boomers were
coming of age, especially Boomermen.
And now we have Millennials whoare maybe a little bit more
conversant and used to conceptslike self-awareness,
self-compassion, empathy foryourself, also practicing
certain positive habits, likethe concept of practicing
(10:31):
gratitude and practicinghappiness, and having more aware
and intentional relationshipwith how you feel and your
effect on other people.
Cross demographic communicationis really important.
Cross generational communicationis really important and
maintaining strong relationshipswith our elders, it's like a
(10:51):
kind of diversity that isintegral to people having a
well-rounded sense of societyand being able to imagine our
own futures.
I think young people just wantto love our elders.
We want to feel seen and heard.
In these dynamics with olderpatriarchs in particular, there
(11:12):
can sometimes be tensions thatoccur when somebody is used to
feeling like they are in therole of the protector or the
nurturer and the provider.
And now suddenly, if there is achange in ability, or new
limitations, a sense of, oh, theroles are being reversed, or all
of a sudden my 35-year-old sonthinks he can tell me what to
(11:37):
do, or is telling me to stopdoing something, that can feel
really disturbing and unusual.
When Skerrett talks about acapacity to tolerate ambiguity,
normalizing some angst, thinkcan factor into these more tense
relationships.
Don Drew (11:55):
Adrienne, I appreciate your insight on that and I wanna
talk about some of the examplesthat you give.
Jeremy is one specific example.
But before we go there, I'd liketo go back to the six points for
just a minute and address two ofthose that I think are
particularly salient for ourlisteners.
The first one was acknowledgingand accepting the realities of
aging.
And partially, that's a shift inidentity that you're talking
(12:17):
about.
We have to acknowledge andaccept the realities of aging.
Number two though, isnormalizing angst about the
future.
Now, you used the term a minuteago about to normalize.
And in psychology or in therapy,that is one of the best tools a
therapist has when they'retalking to somebody is help them
normalize what they're feeling,because we all have a tendency
to feel that what we'reexperiencing is unique to us.
(12:39):
And it's a shock.
Right?
And if you were with a goodtherapist, one of the first
things they'll do is to say,well, yeah, it's a shock, but
it's not unusual.
It's not abnormal.
And in many ways that's a greatpsychological lift for people
who are struggling with changesin themselves and in their
identity.
Would you agree with that?
Adrienne Matei (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that you make a greatpoint.
There is so much diversity topeople that you can't really
predict how people are going torespond to new limitations.
You can't generalize how peopleare gonna respond to these
changes.
But it is a universal fact thatwe will all get older and while
(13:18):
age does not necessarily denotedecline, longer lifespans, can
be linked to longer experienceswith changes in our bodies and
our minds and our abilities.
And that is normal.
It doesn't have to be a thingthat you feel down on yourself
about because it is somethingthat is going to happen
(13:38):
inevitably to everyone to someextent.
So the idea of like, well, Ican't do something that I used
to be able to do, and so now I'mnot as valuable as a person, I
think we just need to have asense of self-compassion.
And self-compassion is somethingthat is not always in the
vocabulary or in the culture,even at the family level of
(14:00):
every person.
And I think that is somethingthat can become this pain point.
It can be hard to grapple withthese amorphous or nebulous
concepts like self-compassion inelderhood while you are also
grappling with fear and someanger and some other kind of
more negative emotions aboutyour situation.
David Lowry (14:19):
Cross generational communication is really
important, I think.
Whether it be seniors talking toyounger people, seniors talking
among themselves and so forth,and I don't know that our
society's done a really greatjob of that.
When you interviewed all ofthese people and gathered all of
this data, did you come acrosssome ideas about how we might
(14:40):
have this intergenerationalcommunication?
Adrienne Matei (14:43):
I think that representation matters.
Like I really enjoyed when Ifirst got TikTok, you would find
people at all stages of life.
Like there was a TikTok house,maybe still is, called
Retirement House that showedelder people living their best
life.
I enjoy reading stories aboutolder people who have found fun
and fulfilling ways to co-livewith friends or build strong
(15:06):
community in elderhood or whoare even just sharing and
reflecting their wisdom.
Like, I want stories about olderpeople, and I want to understand
how they feel about their lives.
On the family level, there aresome kind of practical tasks
that, can improveintergenerational communication
and understanding.
(15:28):
Especially things like trying tounderstand what the person in
your family is maybe mostconcerned about with aging, if
they're concerned about losingfreedoms like driving or being
able to tackle housework.
Maybe listening carefully andtrying to offer compromises.
Like, we can do projectstogether or I can assist you
with transportation.
(15:49):
Something else that expertstypically recommend is to have
hard conversations beforesomething has happened, before
there's been a, an illness or achange in ability or an accident
and talk about potential futurepreferences while everybody has
full physical ability and fullcognition and ask, like what
would make you comfortable?
(16:10):
What would make you embarrassed?
How should we think about ourfuture together?
Adult children are adults and wewanna be part of the family and
ensure a mutually fulfillinglife together.
Don Drew (16:24):
it's difficult for anybody in a power difference to
communicate and I think thegeneration before us, David, I
know in my father's case forinstance, and I know this is
true of much of his generation,as his child, I knew almost
nothing about his life.
They didn't share information.
That was adult stuff.
I was a child.
I'm now trying to piece togethermy father's life.
He passed away a number of yearsago.
(16:44):
I'm trying to piece together hislife, right?
And I have hints, little thingshe said.
I have some newspaper articlesand so on, I have some old
letters and I'm trying to piecethis together, but I didn't know
who he was and why, because hewould not talk to me about
certain things that he perceivedwere, he didn't want trouble me
with it.
David Lowry (17:02):
Bingo.
That is a really good point Don.
And I'm hearing you say,Adrienne, that we really need to
share these things and talkabout situations that could
involve all of us together atsome point in the future and be
very be open and transparentabout that.
Adrienne Matei (17:17):
Yeah, and if that doesn't come to you
naturally or if it is not theway that you were raised, it can
be a challenge and somethingthat needs to be developed as a
skill.
Communication is a skill andbeing willing to go there with
yourself and be honest withyourself about how you're
feeling about the situationsthat you're in.
These things are challenging anddifficult and they require a lot
(17:41):
of strength.
And I just even think thatreframing some of these identity
traits can redefine what youvalue about yourself and your
way of expressing value at anypoint in your life.
Don Drew (17:53):
You told me the inspiration for this article was
a fellow by the name of Jeremy,which we mentioned a few minutes
ago.
Can you tell us that story?
Adrienne Matei (18:00):
Absolutely.
So this was an article that wasborn of a relationship that I've
had for a really long time in aconversation that had been
developing over the course ofmany years with a very close
friend of mine whose father,he's now 80 years old and he has
had Parkinson's disease for thelast maybe seven or eight years.
(18:20):
And over the course of thoseyears, I would check in with my
friend and we would talk aboutthe various kind of challenges
coming up in his father's life.
The things that he wanted tostill be able to do, many of
which were very physical.
He did wanna be the guy whofixed the hole in the roof.
He had built their home, andfelt very connected to creating
(18:44):
changes around the house, doingyard work, getting up on a
ladder with a chainsaw andcutting down the wood and, these
things were causing my friendjust so much stress.
Nobody wants to watch theirloved one in a dangerous
situation where it feels likesome very preventable harm is
about to happen.
But that dynamic is difficultbecause if my friend is like,
(19:05):
dad, please get off the ladder,then his father feels very
attacked and feels like don'ttell me what to do.
This is what I've done my wholelife and this is who I am.
And I'm the parent and you'rethe child.
And I was observing this dynamicfor many years and the kind of
anger that was coming from hisfather was quite palpable.
And then, it happened that I washaving dinner with another
(19:27):
friend of mine who happened tomention something about his own
father become more angry andfixated on what he was not able
to do as he aged.
I've had my own experiences withmy grandfather in this regard as
well.
And it clicked for me that thisis a universal situation.
A lot of people have an olderpatriarch who is having trouble
(19:48):
with this transition in theirlife and that it would be an
interesting topic to explore andhear more stories and to talk to
older men about and hear fromthem directly, how does it feel,
what you're going through?
It seems like a pretty intenseplace to be with yourself.
David Lowry (20:03):
I think men have a lot of trouble owning that we're
losing vitality, physicalstrength, endurance, all those
things that defined our earlierlives.
I look at myself sometimes andthink, wow, three years ago, I
was able to do more than rightnow.
It comes at us at the speed oflife, and creates this feeling
(20:23):
of inward consternation, and wedon't know what to do with it.
We don't know whether to confessit and say, oh man, I think I'm
losing strength here, or ignoreit and plow through.
I mean, it is a real thing todeal with.
But being willing to bevulnerable, open, and
transparent with those who loveus is to own who we are in a
very loving and unapologeticway.
(20:43):
And just say, that's where I amright now.
Adrienne Matei (20:46):
I appreciate that you said in a loving way
because I think that beingaffectionate and proud with
ourselves is the hardest thingthat we do, and it only gets
harder.
And we should have tendernessand compassion as we are going
through that process.
Don Drew (20:57):
It's just sort of natural that we want to try and
keep doing the things we'redoing.
I know that Christie and I hikea lot.
and we are more conscious aboutthe risks that we take on
certain hikes.
We still will do certain things,but we're aware that the risk
and reward calculation ischanging with time.
And that does affect ouridentity and how we feel about
ourselves and what we're doing.
Adrienne Matei (21:17):
These things are not unique to any one particular
generation or demographic.
We all have to think about theways that our identity and
reality collide.
Like I think about should I bewearing my headphones on if I'm
going for a walk at night?
Should I be walking alone atnight to begin with?
There are unpleasant andchallenging things about being
any age and in any generation.
(21:39):
There's this aspect whereindependence is a virtue and
then dependence is seen asfailure.
When you are focusing on this asa weakness, you're not really
seeing the people who are thereto care for you and who are
worried about you and who wannahelp you.
You're not really appreciatingthat is like love.
And if you are refusing toacknowledge the people who are
(22:01):
helping you, then it's hard tohave gratitude for them.
Don Drew (22:04):
Masculinity is toxic because it ends up hurting the
person themselves.
It can hurt others, obviously,but it hurts the person
themselves as well.
Right.
Any ideas on other things orapproaches we might take?
Adrienne Matei (22:15):
It's always useful to take stock of how
you're feeling yourself, andthere are a lot of practices
that can be valuable in doingthat, including journaling,
speaking to a therapist, evenjust chatting with friends
openly about these kind ofquestions.
Where do you see yourself in thenext 10 years?
If something happened, whatwould you feel most sensitive
(22:37):
about?
And if you had to have somehelp, how would you want that to
look?
What kind of support would youideally be getting from your
family members?
What kind of support could yousee yourself getting from other
sources?
Just having these hardconversations before they have
to happen, I think is a big oneand maybe even talking about
(22:59):
your own relationship with yourelders.
Like that's something I'm alwaysso curious about with older
people.
I don't really know what mydad's relationship with his dad
was really like, what it feltlike, or my grandfather's
relationship with his father.
I don't really know thosethings.
I think that those earlyexperiences can really inform
your sense of self and yoursense of where you're at in
(23:20):
life.
Self-awareness of how yourbehavior is affecting the people
around you and how your wordsare affecting them, It's really
important.
And an awareness and gratitudethat you are valued for who you
are, not just for what you do.
People can try as hard as theywant to make you feel loved, but
(23:41):
you have to feel worthy of loveyourself to be able to receive
that.
And it just is really sad to methat there are these kind of
forms of masculinity that don'treally teach men to open
themselves up.
Don Drew (23:53):
Adrienne, you wrote this article we've been talking
about February, I believe, forthe Guardian.
What are you working on now?
Adrienne Matei (23:58):
So I just had a pitch meeting actually, with my
desk at The Guardians USWellness Desk and we were
talking about some ideas aboutaging.
No stories assigned quite yet,but I am hoping to maybe look
into and learn a little bit moreabout older gamers, video game
enthusiasts through the ages andmaybe a little bit more about
(24:18):
elder co-living facilities.
It is more common in somecountries as an older person to
have roommates more of afriendship support model, which
I think is really cool andbeautiful.
And I would love to explore howthat looks for people, how
people make it work.
I just had a piece go up lastweek that was about orthorexia,
(24:40):
which is a sort of fixation onthe healthfulness and purity of
food.
So some food fears around thingslike pesticides and demonized
ingredients like seed oils andfood dyes and how those can
really affect our relationshipwith what we eat and our bodies.
Don Drew (24:56):
That's great.
Adrienne, thank you so much forbeing with us on Peaceful Life
Radio.
Adrienne Matei (24:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been wonderful.
We sometimes hear older men be down on
(00:03):
themselves when they feel likethey're no longer able to
perform certain tasks that theyused to do.
Like I can't drive anymore, so Iam useless.
Hegemonic masculinityessentially tells men that being
worthy means being useful, beingstrong, being self-sufficient,
being in control, and whenability to be productive starts
(00:23):
to change, it can feel liketheir sense of identity is
changing in ways they might notbe happy with.
David Lowry (00:30):
That was Adrienne Matei our guest on today's
program.
Welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
This is David Lowry, and with metoday is my good friend Don
Drew.
Don Drew (00:40):
Hello everyone.
David Lowry (00:41):
Don, I'm really excited about the show today.
Why don't you introduce ourguests and tell us a little bit
about what's ahead.
Don Drew (00:47):
Absolutely David.
We have with us today AdrienneMatei, who is a Vancouver based
journalist with over a decade ofexperience in culture oriented
reporting.
She's a graduate of ColumbiaUniversity's Master of
Journalism Program.
She was awarded the prestigiousPulitzer Fellowship in Arts
Criticism and her work spans awide range of topics including
(01:08):
wellness, technology, andidentity.
You can find her work in majorpublications such as The
Guardian, the Atlantic BusinessInsider, the Wall Street
Journal, and the New York Times,among others.
Adrienne offers her readers afresh perspective on
complexities in modern life.
Today she joins us to discussthe article she wrote in The
Guardian back in Februaryentitled, He kept going until he
(01:30):
couldn't.
Why do Boomer men refuse to slowdown?
Adrienne, welcome to PeacefulLife Radio.
Adrienne Matei (01:36):
Hello.
Thank you so much for having me.
David Lowry (01:38):
Adrienne, I really relate to that title because I
think I'm one of those guys.
Adrienne Matei (01:44):
Well, I'm glad that you relate, David.
You know, had a working titlefor this piece that was a little
bit different.
It was called, It's Entirely Hisidentity to be a doer.
When Aging Men Refuse to slowDown.
So I don't think that this issomething that is limited to
boomer men, exclusively, butthat is the demographic of some
of the sources that I ended upspeaking with for the piece.
Don Drew (02:05):
I'm so glad you opened with that because one of the
things I wanted to ask you aboutis when you talk about identity,
and that really comes out inyour article, how did you
picture that for these, men whoare of boomer age, which, for
our listeners is generally gonnabe roughly over 60 at this
point.
Adrienne Matei (02:21):
Yeah, this is a story about aging and masculine
identities, traditionalmasculine identities, which are
sometimes referred to ashegemonic masculinity.
And that is an approach tomasculinity where men are
defining their self-worththrough these ideals, like
productivity, power, andcontrol.
Hegemonic masculinityessentially tells men that being
(02:44):
worthy means being useful, beingstrong, being self-sufficient,
being in control, and whenability to be productive starts
to change, it can feel liketheir sense of identity is
changing in ways they might notbe happy with.
David Lowry (02:59):
When I hear this, all sorts of things go through
me.
Just so people will know, I cameonto the planet in 1953, so I
definitely qualify for thepeople that you're describing
here.
Career was really important.
The first thing that men wouldsay, Well, what kind of work do
you do?
And as we hit retirement, peoplesay, now that you're retired,
(03:21):
what are you going to do?
And this whole question is like,you gotta have something amazing
ahead for you and I'm sittinghere going, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
Adrienne Matei (03:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There can be this associationwith identity and worthiness and
productivity and achievementrather than a comfortable sense
of value in who you are as aperson.
Don Drew (03:43):
You make a great point, David.
I've always noticed,particularly men who have been
my age throughout my career,when we meet, the first thing we
want to know is what do you do?
And I think one of the reasonswe do that is we're trying to
understand somebody's identitybased upon what they do.
For instance, I have a career inuniversity life, I've been a
professor and that defines a lotof my identity and what I am.
(04:05):
And I retired last year and Iknow that I really struggled
trying to figure out what'snext.
It was only after I began towrestle with the idea that I did
not have to prove something thatI started to relax a little bit
and I'm enjoying retirementfinally.
I'm still very active, but notin a career.
(04:26):
And men like me often strugglewith that.
And that's why when I readAdrienne's article, I was so
impressed with her view of that.
But she also brought in severalother things.
Adrienne.
You brought up for instancerising longevity and advancing
medical care and the fact thatwe're living longer and so
forth.
And how did you interpret thosekinds of things impacting men's
lives?
Adrienne Matei (04:47):
This is a story that's part of a bigger
demographic shift.
The Boomer generation really isentering a longer elderhood than
any of their predecessors, andthat is to do with modern
medicine and all of thesechanges that have happened over
the last century.
But what it hasn't done is setthis generation up with role
(05:10):
models for positive aging intolonger elderhoods, or a sense of
what their elderhoods could looklike.
So, I talked to some older menafter writing this article who
were saying to me like you know,I almost never really realized
that I was going to have so muchtime after retirement or what
that time was gonna look like.
Don Drew (05:29):
You quote in your article from the University of
Alabama Birmingham, a study thatsays this, and this is a quote
says, masculine identity upholdsbeliefs about masculine
enactment.
When you say enactment, what doyou mean by that?
Adrienne Matei (05:41):
Yeah, so that's how we identify ourselves
through what we're able to do.
Like, can you be the doer?
Can you be the guy who fixes thehole on the roof?
Can you be the guy who is ableto drive, protect your family or
do all of these things and howdoes that reflect upon your
identity?
And this study was reallyinteresting because they were
(06:04):
measuring all of these differentideas of how much people
prescribe to hegemonic ideals.
Like are you somebody who isvery much in favor of the idea
that bigger, stronger men aremore attractive to women, and
men shouldn't cry, and it'simportant for men to hide if
they are having any pain?
(06:26):
And what they found through thestudy is that people sorted
themselves into three groups.
People who were very keen onupholding hegemonic ideals,
people who were sort of in themiddle, and then people who
dismissed them and didn't reallyrelate to them.
And the more you wanted touphold these hegemonic ideals,
or the more you believed inthem, the worse health outcomes
(06:47):
you had.
So as men age, the studysuggests that you need to
rethink what it means to bemasculine or suffer poor health
outcomes, which I found reallyinteresting.
David Lowry (06:58):
One of the things that I find interesting about
this conversation is that wehaven't had anyone really tell
us, speaking for my generationwhat a retirement look like,
where you had more years thanthe people before you to live
and explore life in a differentway.
What would that look like?
And I'm curious, as you thinkabout this and did your
(07:18):
research, what do you think thatmight look like?
Adrienne Matei (07:21):
So there was actually somebody who I
interviewed for this piece namedKaren Skerrett, who is a
psychologist, and she proposedthese six tasks to help people
develop what she calls arealistic, accommodating, and
hopeful perception of thefuture.
And those tasks includeacknowledging and accepting the
realities of aging, normalizingangst about the future, active
(07:44):
reminiscence, accommodatingphysical, cognitive and social
changes, searching for newemotionally meaningful goals,
and expanding one's capacity totolerate ambiguity.
I would definitely recommendlooking up at Karen Skerrett and
this research report if you'reinterested in learning more
about that.
I know that she has a book aboutnavigating aging as a couple
(08:08):
that might be really interestingfor people.
But overall, these tasks areaiming to help people
recharacterize aging as atransition that is a phase of
life, that is interesting in itsown right, even though it
requires adaptability andgrowth, and foresight, and to
help people resist this conceptthat she refers to as premature
(08:28):
foreclosure, which is thisnotion that their life stories
have ended or that you are nolonger valuable just because one
thing or some things that youused to do might not be
realistic for you anymore.
I think that we sometimes hearolder men be down on themselves
(08:48):
in ways when they feel likethey're no longer able to
perform certain tasks that theyused to do.
Like I can't drive anymore, so Iam useless.
And the underlyingself-perception of that is cruel
to oneself because you have somuch value as a human being, and
especially in elderhood, thewisdom that you have accrued and
(09:11):
the presence that you havecultivated.
Our elders are so meaningful inour lives, and younger
generations value your presenceand we value you for who you
are.
And sometimes I think insituations when we have older
men, especially who we love, ina position where we feel like we
have to convince them that theyare enough that's a sad and
difficult thing.
David Lowry (09:32):
I'd like to think of the Boomer generation as the
parents of Gen X, Gen Z and allthe other ones that have come
after them.
So this is a personal questionto you, Adrienne, as someone
who's not in this Boomergeneration, how would you like
us to be?
Adrienne Matei (09:48):
I think that millennials and younger
generations are coming of age ordid come of age in a time with a
very different outlook on theemotional inner self than
Boomers did.
I think it was very common forBoomers to be raised with some
very pragmatic, no nonsenseparenthood.
(10:08):
Therapy was not necessarilynormalized when Boomers were
coming of age, especially Boomermen.
And now we have Millennials whoare maybe a little bit more
conversant and used to conceptslike self-awareness,
self-compassion, empathy foryourself, also practicing
certain positive habits, likethe concept of practicing
(10:31):
gratitude and practicinghappiness, and having more aware
and intentional relationshipwith how you feel and your
effect on other people.
Cross demographic communicationis really important.
Cross generational communicationis really important and
maintaining strong relationshipswith our elders, it's like a
(10:51):
kind of diversity that isintegral to people having a
well-rounded sense of societyand being able to imagine our
own futures.
I think young people just wantto love our elders.
We want to feel seen and heard.
In these dynamics with olderpatriarchs in particular, there
(11:12):
can sometimes be tensions thatoccur when somebody is used to
feeling like they are in therole of the protector or the
nurturer and the provider.
And now suddenly, if there is achange in ability, or new
limitations, a sense of, oh, theroles are being reversed, or all
of a sudden my 35-year-old sonthinks he can tell me what to
(11:37):
do, or is telling me to stopdoing something, that can feel
really disturbing and unusual.
When Skerrett talks about acapacity to tolerate ambiguity,
normalizing some angst, thinkcan factor into these more tense
relationships.
Don Drew (11:55):
Adrienne, I appreciate your insight on that and I wanna
talk about some of the examplesthat you give.
Jeremy is one specific example.
But before we go there, I'd liketo go back to the six points for
just a minute and address two ofthose that I think are
particularly salient for ourlisteners.
The first one was acknowledgingand accepting the realities of
aging.
And partially, that's a shift inidentity that you're talking
(12:17):
about.
We have to acknowledge andaccept the realities of aging.
Number two though, isnormalizing angst about the
future.
Now, you used the term a minuteago about to normalize.
And in psychology or in therapy,that is one of the best tools a
therapist has when they'retalking to somebody is help them
normalize what they're feeling,because we all have a tendency
to feel that what we'reexperiencing is unique to us.
(12:39):
And it's a shock.
Right?
And if you were with a goodtherapist, one of the first
things they'll do is to say,well, yeah, it's a shock, but
it's not unusual.
It's not abnormal.
And in many ways that's a greatpsychological lift for people
who are struggling with changesin themselves and in their
identity.
Would you agree with that?
Adrienne Matei (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that you make a greatpoint.
There is so much diversity topeople that you can't really
predict how people are going torespond to new limitations.
You can't generalize how peopleare gonna respond to these
changes.
But it is a universal fact thatwe will all get older and while
(13:18):
age does not necessarily denotedecline, longer lifespans, can
be linked to longer experienceswith changes in our bodies and
our minds and our abilities.
And that is normal.
It doesn't have to be a thingthat you feel down on yourself
about because it is somethingthat is going to happen
(13:38):
inevitably to everyone to someextent.
So the idea of like, well, Ican't do something that I used
to be able to do, and so now I'mnot as valuable as a person, I
think we just need to have asense of self-compassion.
And self-compassion is somethingthat is not always in the
vocabulary or in the culture,even at the family level of
(14:00):
every person.
And I think that is somethingthat can become this pain point.
It can be hard to grapple withthese amorphous or nebulous
concepts like self-compassion inelderhood while you are also
grappling with fear and someanger and some other kind of
more negative emotions aboutyour situation.
David Lowry (14:19):
Cross generational communication is really
important, I think.
Whether it be seniors talking toyounger people, seniors talking
among themselves and so forth,and I don't know that our
society's done a really greatjob of that.
When you interviewed all ofthese people and gathered all of
this data, did you come acrosssome ideas about how we might
(14:40):
have this intergenerationalcommunication?
Adrienne Matei (14:43):
I think that representation matters.
Like I really enjoyed when Ifirst got TikTok, you would find
people at all stages of life.
Like there was a TikTok house,maybe still is, called
Retirement House that showedelder people living their best
life.
I enjoy reading stories aboutolder people who have found fun
and fulfilling ways to co-livewith friends or build strong
(15:06):
community in elderhood or whoare even just sharing and
reflecting their wisdom.
Like, I want stories about olderpeople, and I want to understand
how they feel about their lives.
On the family level, there aresome kind of practical tasks
that, can improveintergenerational communication
and understanding.
(15:28):
Especially things like trying tounderstand what the person in
your family is maybe mostconcerned about with aging, if
they're concerned about losingfreedoms like driving or being
able to tackle housework.
Maybe listening carefully andtrying to offer compromises.
Like, we can do projectstogether or I can assist you
with transportation.
(15:49):
Something else that expertstypically recommend is to have
hard conversations beforesomething has happened, before
there's been a, an illness or achange in ability or an accident
and talk about potential futurepreferences while everybody has
full physical ability and fullcognition and ask, like what
would make you comfortable?
(16:10):
What would make you embarrassed?
How should we think about ourfuture together?
Adult children are adults and wewanna be part of the family and
ensure a mutually fulfillinglife together.
Don Drew (16:24):
it's difficult for anybody in a power difference to
communicate and I think thegeneration before us, David, I
know in my father's case forinstance, and I know this is
true of much of his generation,as his child, I knew almost
nothing about his life.
They didn't share information.
That was adult stuff.
I was a child.
I'm now trying to piece togethermy father's life.
He passed away a number of yearsago.
(16:44):
I'm trying to piece together hislife, right?
And I have hints, little thingshe said.
I have some newspaper articlesand so on, I have some old
letters and I'm trying to piecethis together, but I didn't know
who he was and why, because hewould not talk to me about
certain things that he perceivedwere, he didn't want trouble me
with it.
David Lowry (17:02):
Bingo.
That is a really good point Don.
And I'm hearing you say,Adrienne, that we really need to
share these things and talkabout situations that could
involve all of us together atsome point in the future and be
very be open and transparentabout that.
Adrienne Matei (17:17):
Yeah, and if that doesn't come to you
naturally or if it is not theway that you were raised, it can
be a challenge and somethingthat needs to be developed as a
skill.
Communication is a skill andbeing willing to go there with
yourself and be honest withyourself about how you're
feeling about the situationsthat you're in.
These things are challenging anddifficult and they require a lot
(17:41):
of strength.
And I just even think thatreframing some of these identity
traits can redefine what youvalue about yourself and your
way of expressing value at anypoint in your life.
Don Drew (17:53):
You told me the inspiration for this article was
a fellow by the name of Jeremy,which we mentioned a few minutes
ago.
Can you tell us that story?
Adrienne Matei (18:00):
Absolutely.
So this was an article that wasborn of a relationship that I've
had for a really long time in aconversation that had been
developing over the course ofmany years with a very close
friend of mine whose father,he's now 80 years old and he has
had Parkinson's disease for thelast maybe seven or eight years.
(18:20):
And over the course of thoseyears, I would check in with my
friend and we would talk aboutthe various kind of challenges
coming up in his father's life.
The things that he wanted tostill be able to do, many of
which were very physical.
He did wanna be the guy whofixed the hole in the roof.
He had built their home, andfelt very connected to creating
(18:44):
changes around the house, doingyard work, getting up on a
ladder with a chainsaw andcutting down the wood and, these
things were causing my friendjust so much stress.
Nobody wants to watch theirloved one in a dangerous
situation where it feels likesome very preventable harm is
about to happen.
But that dynamic is difficultbecause if my friend is like,
(19:05):
dad, please get off the ladder,then his father feels very
attacked and feels like don'ttell me what to do.
This is what I've done my wholelife and this is who I am.
And I'm the parent and you'rethe child.
And I was observing this dynamicfor many years and the kind of
anger that was coming from hisfather was quite palpable.
And then, it happened that I washaving dinner with another
(19:27):
friend of mine who happened tomention something about his own
father become more angry andfixated on what he was not able
to do as he aged.
I've had my own experiences withmy grandfather in this regard as
well.
And it clicked for me that thisis a universal situation.
A lot of people have an olderpatriarch who is having trouble
(19:48):
with this transition in theirlife and that it would be an
interesting topic to explore andhear more stories and to talk to
older men about and hear fromthem directly, how does it feel,
what you're going through?
It seems like a pretty intenseplace to be with yourself.
David Lowry (20:03):
I think men have a lot of trouble owning that we're
losing vitality, physicalstrength, endurance, all those
things that defined our earlierlives.
I look at myself sometimes andthink, wow, three years ago, I
was able to do more than rightnow.
It comes at us at the speed oflife, and creates this feeling
(20:23):
of inward consternation, and wedon't know what to do with it.
We don't know whether to confessit and say, oh man, I think I'm
losing strength here, or ignoreit and plow through.
I mean, it is a real thing todeal with.
But being willing to bevulnerable, open, and
transparent with those who loveus is to own who we are in a
very loving and unapologeticway.
(20:43):
And just say, that's where I amright now.
Adrienne Matei (20:46):
I appreciate that you said in a loving way
because I think that beingaffectionate and proud with
ourselves is the hardest thingthat we do, and it only gets
harder.
And we should have tendernessand compassion as we are going
through that process.
Don Drew (20:57):
It's just sort of natural that we want to try and
keep doing the things we'redoing.
I know that Christie and I hikea lot.
and we are more conscious aboutthe risks that we take on
certain hikes.
We still will do certain things,but we're aware that the risk
and reward calculation ischanging with time.
And that does affect ouridentity and how we feel about
ourselves and what we're doing.
Adrienne Matei (21:17):
These things are not unique to any one particular
generation or demographic.
We all have to think about theways that our identity and
reality collide.
Like I think about should I bewearing my headphones on if I'm
going for a walk at night?
Should I be walking alone atnight to begin with?
There are unpleasant andchallenging things about being
any age and in any generation.
(21:39):
There's this aspect whereindependence is a virtue and
then dependence is seen asfailure.
When you are focusing on this asa weakness, you're not really
seeing the people who are thereto care for you and who are
worried about you and who wannahelp you.
You're not really appreciatingthat is like love.
And if you are refusing toacknowledge the people who are
(22:01):
helping you, then it's hard tohave gratitude for them.
Don Drew (22:04):
Masculinity is toxic because it ends up hurting the
person themselves.
It can hurt others, obviously,but it hurts the person
themselves as well.
Right.
Any ideas on other things orapproaches we might take?
Adrienne Matei (22:15):
It's always useful to take stock of how
you're feeling yourself, andthere are a lot of practices
that can be valuable in doingthat, including journaling,
speaking to a therapist, evenjust chatting with friends
openly about these kind ofquestions.
Where do you see yourself in thenext 10 years?
If something happened, whatwould you feel most sensitive
(22:37):
about?
And if you had to have somehelp, how would you want that to
look?
What kind of support would youideally be getting from your
family members?
What kind of support could yousee yourself getting from other
sources?
Just having these hardconversations before they have
to happen, I think is a big oneand maybe even talking about
(22:59):
your own relationship with yourelders.
Like that's something I'm alwaysso curious about with older
people.
I don't really know what mydad's relationship with his dad
was really like, what it feltlike, or my grandfather's
relationship with his father.
I don't really know thosethings.
I think that those earlyexperiences can really inform
your sense of self and yoursense of where you're at in
(23:20):
life.
Self-awareness of how yourbehavior is affecting the people
around you and how your wordsare affecting them, It's really
important.
And an awareness and gratitudethat you are valued for who you
are, not just for what you do.
People can try as hard as theywant to make you feel loved, but
(23:41):
you have to feel worthy of loveyourself to be able to receive
that.
And it just is really sad to methat there are these kind of
forms of masculinity that don'treally teach men to open
themselves up.
Don Drew (23:53):
Adrienne, you wrote this article we've been talking
about February, I believe, forthe Guardian.
What are you working on now?
Adrienne Matei (23:58):
So I just had a pitch meeting actually, with my
desk at The Guardians USWellness Desk and we were
talking about some ideas aboutaging.
No stories assigned quite yet,but I am hoping to maybe look
into and learn a little bit moreabout older gamers, video game
enthusiasts through the ages andmaybe a little bit more about
(24:18):
elder co-living facilities.
It is more common in somecountries as an older person to
have roommates more of afriendship support model, which
I think is really cool andbeautiful.
And I would love to explore howthat looks for people, how
people make it work.
I just had a piece go up lastweek that was about orthorexia,
(24:40):
which is a sort of fixation onthe healthfulness and purity of
food.
So some food fears around thingslike pesticides and demonized
ingredients like seed oils andfood dyes and how those can
really affect our relationshipwith what we eat and our bodies.
Don Drew (24:56):
That's great.
Adrienne, thank you so much forbeing with us on Peaceful Life
Radio.
Adrienne Matei (24:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been wonderful.
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