June 1, 2025 • 30 mins
Professor Karlos Hill on Healing History
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, host David Lowry and Don Drew interview Dr. Karlos Hill, Regents Professor at the University of Oklahoma, about his work as a Black studies historian. Dr. Hill discusses the importance of understanding and healing from the Black past, particularly focusing on the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre. He elaborates on myths, suppressed narratives, and the profound impact of the massacre on the Black community. Dr. Hill emphasizes the critical need for racial dialogue and transformational education to foster compassion, knowledge, and healing. During the discussion, he also shares insights on his books and community initiatives dedicated to racial justice.
00:00 Introduction to the Black Past
00:43 Meet Professor Karlos Hill
01:01 Dr. Hill's Work and Mission
03:22 The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre
13:56 Understanding Difficult Histories
17:21 Healing Through Dialogue
24:45 Current and Future Projects
28:10 Final Thoughts and Farewell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karlos Hill (00:00):
I would say that my greatest growth as a Black
studies historian is to not onlyrealize that I have a
relationship, but to own myrelationship to the Black past.
And I would say to everyonelistening, we all, every one of
us, White, Black, Brown, have arelationship to the Black past.
(00:23):
The only question is whether wecare about that relationship or
not.
If there's no healing, there'sno future.
And so healing is essential toprogress.
Without it, we're doomed to bestuck in these antagonisms that
don't have to be.
David Lowry (00:43):
That was Professor Karlos Hill on today's Peaceful
Life Radio.
Welcome.
I'm David Lowry.
With me today is our good friendDon Drew.
Don, how are you?
Don Drew (00:53):
Hello, David.
I'm really excited about today'sprogram.
David Lowry (00:56):
I want you to introduce our very special
guest, Professor Karlos Hill.
Don Drew (00:59):
I'm looking forward to it.
Dr.
Hill is the Regents Professor ofthe Clara Luper, department of
African and African AmericanStudies at the University of
Oklahoma.
Dr.
Hill is the author of threebooks Beyond the Rope: The
Impact of Lynching on BlackCulture and Memory.
The Murder of Emmett Till (01:16):
A Graphic History, and his latest
work the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre: A Photographic
History.
Dr.
Hill founded the Tulsa RaceMassacre Oklahoma Teachers
Institute to support teachingthe history of the race massacre
to thousands of middle schooland high school students.
He also serves on the boards ofthe Freedom Center Planning
(01:38):
Committee, the Clara LuperLegacy Committee, and the Board
of Scholars for Facing Historyand Ourselves, and is actively
engaged in other communityinitiatives working towards
racial justice.
Dr.
Hill, welcome to Peaceful LifeRadio.
Karlos Hill (01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Don Drew (01:54):
Let's start with your books.
Dr.
Hill, your books highlighttragedies and murders,
perpetrated by racial hatred.
Why do you think telling thesestories are important and what
do you hope to accomplish?
Karlos Hill (02:05):
I usually begin talks that I have explaining to
people why I bear witness to thehistories of lynching and racial
violence.
I can tell you in a phrase,Healing history, healing
history, healing history.
I truly believe we can heal fromour painful, traumatic past.
(02:26):
I teach students not just toknow, I teach students to care
about these histories because Ibelieve knowledge is a pathway
to caring.
Right?
Knowledge is a pathway to caringand being compassionate towards
histories and not just thehistories, that the histories
have impacted, knowledge is apathway to caring.
(02:49):
And if we can position people toauthentically know and care
about these histories, I thinkat that intersection of
compassion, and knowledge istransformation.
And so my mission and purpose isalways to teach students to care
about these histories oflynching and racial violence
(03:09):
that I write about.
Don Drew (03:10):
Your statement, "knowledge being a pathway to
caring," is such a beautifulsentiment has a lot to do with
what we want to accomplishtoday.
But your primary expertise is inthe Tulsa Race Massacre.
We don't have a long program,but I do think that it would be
good for our listeners to hear alittle about what happened on
May 31st and June 1st, 1921.
Karlos Hill (03:31):
So I'm a Black studies historian of lynching
and racial violence.
But the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacreis what I'm most known for
because of the community workand the commission's work to
shift the nation's understandingof what happened from a riot to
a massacre.
That was profound, and I wasblessed to be a part of it.
(03:54):
What we need to understand aboutthe 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre,
what happened on May 31st, June1st, 1921 is that it was the
deadliest attack on an Americancommunity, right, in this
country's history.
Some would call what happened inTulsa, the largest disturbance
after the Civil War, thedeadliest attack on a Black
(04:15):
community in American history,or an American community.
That's the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre.
What does that really mean?
That means between 16 and 18hours, a community estimated
about 11,000 Black people, Blacksouls, with a 40 block area was
destroyed in a matter of hours,I want to say 14 to 16 hours.
(04:39):
The only buildings leftstanding, or intact, were Booker
T Washington School.
But other than Booker TWashington, every significant
building in that community,homes, schools, hospitals, all
manner of businesses destroyedby a violent mob numbering in
(05:01):
the thousands.
So when we talk about the racemassacre, we have to put it into
proper perspective.
It's not just an attack on aBlack community.
It's not just the destruction ofbusinesses and homes.
It's the deadliest attack on aBlack community., An American
community in our nation'shistory.
And it's not only the deadliest,I would say it's one of our most
(05:24):
defining histories.
So when we talk about Greenwood,when we talk about Black Wall
Street, when we talk about theTulsa Race Massacre, it carries
a heaviness because it is suchan important history.
David Lowry (05:38):
Dr.
Hill, I'm ashamed to say, but itis the truth, I've lived in
Oklahoma since 2005.
I did not even know about thisuntil about five years ago.
Never heard a word about this,but of course, nothing about
lynchings either.
There's so much history I'venever heard about.
But a question I have is, whatare some of the myths and
(06:00):
discoveries about this massacrethat challenges our previous
understandings of all of this?
Karlos Hill (06:06):
I think I suggested it earlier.
When the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre was mentioned, it was
often mentioned as a riot, as aconflict, or a racial conflict
between Blacks and Whites thatspilled over into the Black
community and resulted in thatcommunity being destroyed.
(06:30):
But essentially when it'sunderstood as a race riot, it's
a history that centers Blackpeople as the perpetrators,
Black people, as the reason forwhy it occurred.
And when it was referenced, itwas always referenced as a riot.
But the deeper history of themassacre was a history of
(06:52):
suppression.
Following June 1st.
There was never a systematicinvestigation of the causes.
Who was to blame?
Why did this quote unquote riotturn into destruction of the
Black community?
Those questions, were neveranswered, were never even
explored, in part because of theracism and the White supremacy
(07:17):
of the era.
It simply was never going to bean option for the White men who
were responsible for thedestruction, to be held
culpable, or accountable forthat destruction.
That ran counter to the time,right?
I studied the lynching era.
And the lynching era is allabout the ways in which White
(07:39):
people, could pretty much treatBlack people with impunity, and
without the risk of any kind of,punishment or ramifications for
their behavior.
And that was the same withGreenwood.
And so the Whites who, beginningat 5:00 AM on June 1st, and
(08:00):
numbering in the thousandsagain, who entered Greenwood
simultaneously, and began tosystematically destroy homes,
businesses, and kill innocentpeople, those individuals did
that with the knowledge theywould never be held responsible.
And I was able, as a historian,document what happened a hundred
(08:23):
years ago, 103 years ago now,because the members of the mob
who participated in the violencetook pictures of the
destruction, knowing full wellthat it would never be held
responsible for that violence,even when they were pictured in
the photographs.
So for so many reasons, Iunderstand the 19 21 Tulsa Race
(08:45):
Massacre as a part of lynchingculture, the culture of
lynching.
And in fact, an allegation ofsexual assault, is what
precipitated the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre and the calls to lynch
Dick Roland, the man who wassupposed to have sexually
(09:05):
assaulted a White woman inTulsa, Sarah Page.
It was those allegations thatbrought White men downtown,
calling for the lynching of DickRoland, but ultimately it was
the Black men who came downtownto defend Dick Roland who became
ensnared with White members ofthe mob and led to the melee
(09:28):
that led to the eruption ofviolence.
So the start of that violencewas this allegation of sexual
assault, something that issynonymous with lynching and
lynching culture.
That is what precipitated the1921 Race massacre and led to it
becoming a massacre, an assaulton the Black community.
(09:53):
That angle, that part of thehistory has been the most
suppressed.
And I have argued it's been themost suppressed because that's
the story that survivors andvictims told about what
happened.
Don Drew (10:06):
Dr.
Hill, just for our listeners, alittle additional background.
When you refer to Greenwood,that is the Black district where
the massacre took place oftenreferred to as Black Wall
Street, indicating that area wasa very, financially successful
venture for the Black community.
David Lowry (10:22):
Do you think that played into this massacre
mentality as well?
Karlos Hill (10:27):
Greenwood, is a part of Tulsa, at 1921, a city
of a hundred thousand,Greenwood, about 11,000
residents in that neighborhood,that 40 block area.
What I can say from reallycarefully studying the photos,
the individuals who snapped thepictures of the destruction who
were likely a part of theviolence, when they left
(10:51):
annotations on the photographs,some of which became postcards
that they sent through the mailof the destruction and the loss
of life, I noticed, and notedthat there were notations that
referenced Greenwood orGreenwood Black Wall Street.
Instead of referring to it inthat way, it was referred on
(11:12):
those photographs as Dark Town.
Not only as Dark Town but AfricaTown.
And if you know anything aboutthe early 20th century, those
were racial epithets.
Those were meant to disparageGreenwood not honor it, not give
(11:33):
it respect, its due.
Those photographs helped me tounderstand the deep resentment
there was to the affluence ofGreenwood.
We have to remember in 1921,Greenwood was a symbol of what
was economically possible inBlack America.
(11:53):
Black America at this time,particularly in the South, by
and large, Black people arelandless sharecroppers.
All that to say Greenwood was asymbol of what was possible in
an urban context.
Part of the reason why it wasknown as Black Wall Street
(12:13):
wasn't because there were banksor financial institutions of
note, it was because, Greenwoodwas the home of some of the most
respected Black businesses inthe country, like the Dreamland
Theater owned by the Williamsfamily, John and Lula Williams,
(12:36):
who migrated to Tulsa in theearly 19 hundreds.
Black entrepreneurs, who madethe Dream land into a national
theater with national cachet.
There was a Stratford hotelknown as one of the finest Black
hotels in the country.
Because of the reputation ofthose businesses and the support
(12:57):
from the community, there wereat least six millionaires in
Greenwood by 1921.
There were other Blackcommunities, and there were
other Black wall streets.
I'm actually writing a bookright now on the Black Wall
Streets of America.
There's a Black Wall Street inRichmond, Virginia, in Durham,
North Carolina, Atlanta,Chicago.
(13:19):
We can name a few.
So there were other communitieswhere Black people were
prosperous, but in the Jim CrowSouth, Greenwood was a symbol
and Booker T Washington, invisiting Oklahoma, labeled
Greenwood the Negro Wall Streetof America because the promise
it represented.
(13:40):
And the resentment of WhiteTulsan's was, how could this
community gather up so muchwealth, so much resources?
It was affront to the Whitesupremacy of that day, and the
photographs helped to reveal it.
David Lowry (13:56):
This is sometimes called difficult history.
Do you find special challengesas you tell these stories and
make your students aware ofwhat's happened in our past?
Karlos Hill (14:08):
These histories are difficult because we're afraid
to confront them.
We're afraid to talk about them.
We don't quite know how to talkabout them with compassion and
sensitivity.
And when that is the case itcreates a reticence to want to
engage to want to talk aboutthese histories.
(14:31):
The way in which I try to makestudents and audiences
comfortable in talking aboutthese difficult pasts that are
really emotionally charged,politically charged, is to say
to them that we can heal.
Healing is possible for our mosttraumatic histories, right?
(14:52):
And the pathway to that isunderstanding those histories
authentically.
Understanding those histories oflynching and racial violence,
racial massacres, the hardhistory of slavery, the hard
history of this country.
How do you authenticallyunderstand those histories?
I believe having studied andserved in the capacity that I
(15:16):
have, the 1921 Race Massacre,the best way to position people
to authentically understand thedifficult past is to center
victims and survivors in thetelling of those histories.
That positions contemporaryaudiences to understand where
the grievances are, where thepain and suffering is, where the
(15:40):
debates about restitution are,and what those communities are
owed or deserve today.
When we center thosecommunities, we understand those
histories better and why theyare difficult pasts today.
When we suppress the authentichistories of lynching and racial
(16:02):
violence, we remove from itthose individuals, those
communities, as if they didn'texist, as if they weren't
crucial to it.
And I would argue that in themoment that we have right now
where we see our histories, thedesire to discuss the difficult
histories of slavery and the1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, we are
(16:27):
doing to the next generationwhat was done to your
generation.
We're suppressing thosehistories and making it possible
that a hundred years from nowthere will be people who say,
Wow, I never learned about The1921 Race Massacre.
I didn't hear about that until Iwas into my forties or fifties.
(16:47):
That is what our politic ispositioning the next generations
to say if we don't speak up,because that's what happened in
the 1920s and thirties as itrelates to the race massacre.
So we're at a real inflectionpoint in terms of these
histories and whether or not wewill continue to be honest about
(17:09):
them.
Don Drew (17:10):
Despite your work in this dark history that you're
talking about, the murder ofEmett Till, the lynchings, the
massacre, despite all that, Ifind you to be positive in your
approach.
And one of the things I believeyou advocate is racial dialogue.
How can we as people in a secondhalf of life, reengage, if you
will, in history and opendialogue in positive and
(17:33):
effective ways?
Karlos Hill (17:34):
I would say that my greatest growth as a Black
studies historian is to not onlyrealize that I have a
relationship, but to own myrelationship to the Black past.
And I would say to everyonelistening, we all, every one of
us, White, Black, Brown, have arelationship to the Black past.
(17:57):
The only question is whether wecare about that relationship or
not.
I truly believe everyone canhave a healing relationship with
the Black past, centered on adeep compassion for not just the
history, but the peopleconnected to that history.
(18:18):
I think it's available to all ofus.
And it really takes anindividual who wants to grow in
this part of their life, toreally recognize that they have
a relationship with that past.
And that if they can figure outwhy they care, that is where the
(18:40):
transformation happens.
Individuals, communitiesrealizing, coming to realize,
not individually, but together,why they care about these
histories and how thesehistories show up today, I think
you can't grow and transform inyour head.
You have to dialogue, engagewith people around these
(19:03):
histories, and in the process ofdoing that, we grow, we
transform.
But I believe it starts withknowing and believing that we
can have a relationship with theBlack past.
And there's a process by whichone does this.
It's not just willy-nilly now.
Healing history is amethodology, but I'm saying
(19:26):
people have to believe that theycan have a relationship and they
have to understand that reallytruly caring about that
relationship is what will helpthem to grow in it.
David Lowry (19:36):
I know there's so much more that needs to be done
and certainly something I needto know more about.
But do you have any other ideasor suggestions that we could
start to do to bring abouthealing and taking our part in
Black history as well?
I love how you include all of usin that.
Karlos Hill (19:53):
These processes are difficult.
They're hard, they're notlinear.
What I'm really trying tosuggest is realizing a personal
relationship with the Black pastis something really amorphous to
people.
Oftentimes when we talk aboutrelationships to the past,
individuals think about directrelationships, ancestral
(20:17):
relationships, familialrelationships, direct ties, and
I'm suggesting that is a part ofit.
But there's something bigger,right?
And we can have an effectiverelationship to the Black past,
an understanding about the Blackpast in terms of why we care
(20:38):
about it.
Dialoguing with ourselves and incommunity around histories like
the race massacre, help toreveal the why we care as
individuals and communities.
And where we care is where wecan engage and where we can get
(20:58):
active and where we can dothings together to confront the
ways in which the history showsup today.
In Tulsa, how does the racemassacre show up today?
Where are the dialogueshappening about how the history
shows up today that we need toconfront and deal with?
It's around the history ofrestitution and repair.
(21:19):
It's around the history and thesearch for mass graves.
And it's also around whether ornot the last two survivors of
the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacrewill receive restitution.
I've mentioned there are twoliving survivors.
Not only are there two livingsurvivors who were alive in 1921
(21:43):
who experienced the violence,Greenwood was a survivor.
It survived the attack.
And the community deservesrepair.
These are large issues forpeople in the community to care
about, have compassion for, andto learn about.
These things cannot be done inisolation.
One cannot grow just by readingor by knowing.
(22:05):
One has to grow by knowing andcaring.
And by caring, get involved andget activated.
That's where transformation is.
It's no different for me thenfor you.
I could not talk the way that Italk about the race massacre,
just because I'm a historianlistening and racial violence.
I talk the way I talk about itbecause I've been deeply engaged
in these struggles and beentransformed by them.
(22:26):
If people truly are aftertransformation and growth, that
is the path.
You can't do it from thesidelines.
You can't do it by reading aboutit in isolation.
Growth in terms of having ahealing relationship with these
paths is rooted in dialogue,discussion, understanding, and
(22:46):
ultimately how we can cometogether to do something about
how these history show up.
I would be remiss if I didn'tmention, the most important
thing that I'm working on rightnow is really figuring out how I
can develop and perfect ahealing history curriculum for
(23:07):
students and adults.
I really want to perfect how wetake people who perhaps may not
have a lot of knowledge aboutthe Black past.
Help them to understand thatthey have a relationship to it.
And to understand thatcompassion is a key component to
an effective relationship withthe Black past.
(23:29):
And then dialoguing with themabout their personal
relationship, getting into theiridentity'cause you can't talk
about one's relationships tohistory without talking about
one's identity.
All those things I'm trying toperfect in my classroom so that
I'm assured when students takemy class, I've positioned them
(23:51):
to care.
I've positioned them to not justto know about the history, but
to care about the history andthe people today connected to
the communities connected tothose histories.
That is my role as a Blackstudies historian who not just
teaches about the Black past, Ibear witness to the Black past,
(24:13):
and because of that, I have toposition others to bear witness
too.
And so I really care about myhealing history, pedagogy,
methodology, and really,transforming students in the
process.
Don Drew (24:29):
Dr Hill, your Passion is evident here.
I just wanna let you know howmuch we appreciate you.
You have j ust recently writtenthe 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, a
Photographic history, it's outthere as well as your other
books.
What are you planning on workingon now?
You mentioned a book project.
What else are you working on?
Karlos Hill (24:48):
Thank you for that question.
In 2023, I had the opportunityto edit Clara Luper's.
Behold the Wall Clara Luper forthe audience is often referred
to as the mother of the OklahomaCivil Rights Movement.
For the last seven years or so,I have been a member of the
(25:08):
Clara Luper Legacy Committee, acommittee that is tasked with
honoring Clara Luper's Life andLegacy.
That's a project that stemmedfrom my work on the Legacy
Committee.
I would really encourage theaudience to take a look at
Behold the Walls.
It is a memoir of the OklahomaCity civil Rights Movement.
(25:28):
The good news of that book isthat a second edition, actually
a soft copy, will be availablebeginning in the fall of 2025.
So the book will be republished'cause of the success of the
first.
The two books that I'm workingon right now have to do with
Greenwood and Clara Luper.
So the Clara Luper book will bea graphic history of the Katz
(25:53):
drug store sit-in.
I'm working with a fabulousgraphic artist to render it.
I'm really behind.
I promised Marilyn Luper, thedaughter of Clara Luper about
two years ago that I would beworking feverishly on this book
and get it out in a timelyfashion.
That has not happened.
(26:13):
The reason why she's waiting forthis with bated breath is I
promised that she would be thenarrator of the graphic history.
It would be told in her voiceand her aesthetic.
The name of that book will betitled Freedoms Classroom
because Clara Luper turned herclassroom into a freedoms
(26:36):
classroom were taught ageneration of students how to be
democratic citizens, how tofight for democracy how to fight
for justice.
And we're gonna talk how shelived at the intersection of
education and activism.
She led a movement from there.
King led a movement from thepulpit.
Malcolm X led a movement from,we can say from a pulpit.
(27:00):
You had Asa Randolph as a laboractivist.
You had James Baldwin as anintellectual.
Clara Lupa was a teacher whomobilized students as young as
seven to be activists.
And so Clara Luper is a hero ofmine.
I've learned to revere her as aheroine because of my service on
(27:21):
the Legacy committee and seeinghow 65 years later her students
are as passionate about her, inher absence as she was when she
was living.
I'm writing a book with CarlaSlocum, a great anthropologist
historian of Oklahoma, but alsoof the African diaspora.
(27:43):
She's at University of NorthCarolina, Capitol Hill.
I'm working with her on thisbook on the Long Black Wall
Street Movement.
There were multiple Black WallStreets.
Don Drew (27:57):
Some of us can't go back to school but we can
continue to grow, to know andthen care as a byproduct of
that, and hopefully findpositive ways to bring greater
racial peace and harmony tothose around us.
Karlos Hill (28:10):
I've been talking about healing, healing, healing,
healing, healing.
And I just wanna say veryquickly, the reason why I center
healing is because I believe ifthere's no healing, there's no
future.
And so healing is essential toprogress.
Without it, we're doomed to bestuck in these antagonisms that
(28:32):
don't have to be.
So healing for me is so crucial,and that's why I talk about
healing history versus difficulthistories.
David Lowry (28:41):
You've been listening to Dr.
Carlos Hill, Professor ofAfrican and African American
Studies at the University ofOklahoma.
He's the author of three books.
Professor, thank you foreverything you've said today and
for challenging us to understandour relationship to Black
History and Healing Dialogue.
Thank you for being our guesttoday on Peaceful Life Radio.
Karlos Hill (29:04):
Thank you for having me..
I would say that my greatest growth as a Black
studies historian is to not onlyrealize that I have a
relationship, but to own myrelationship to the Black past.
And I would say to everyonelistening, we all, every one of
us, White, Black, Brown, have arelationship to the Black past.
(00:23):
The only question is whether wecare about that relationship or
not.
If there's no healing, there'sno future.
And so healing is essential toprogress.
Without it, we're doomed to bestuck in these antagonisms that
don't have to be.
David Lowry (00:43):
That was Professor Karlos Hill on today's Peaceful
Life Radio.
Welcome.
I'm David Lowry.
With me today is our good friendDon Drew.
Don, how are you?
Don Drew (00:53):
Hello, David.
I'm really excited about today'sprogram.
David Lowry (00:56):
I want you to introduce our very special
guest, Professor Karlos Hill.
Don Drew (00:59):
I'm looking forward to it.
Dr.
Hill is the Regents Professor ofthe Clara Luper, department of
African and African AmericanStudies at the University of
Oklahoma.
Dr.
Hill is the author of threebooks Beyond the Rope: The
Impact of Lynching on BlackCulture and Memory.
The Murder of Emmett Till (01:16):
A Graphic History, and his latest
work the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre: A Photographic
History.
Dr.
Hill founded the Tulsa RaceMassacre Oklahoma Teachers
Institute to support teachingthe history of the race massacre
to thousands of middle schooland high school students.
He also serves on the boards ofthe Freedom Center Planning
(01:38):
Committee, the Clara LuperLegacy Committee, and the Board
of Scholars for Facing Historyand Ourselves, and is actively
engaged in other communityinitiatives working towards
racial justice.
Dr.
Hill, welcome to Peaceful LifeRadio.
Karlos Hill (01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Don Drew (01:54):
Let's start with your books.
Dr.
Hill, your books highlighttragedies and murders,
perpetrated by racial hatred.
Why do you think telling thesestories are important and what
do you hope to accomplish?
Karlos Hill (02:05):
I usually begin talks that I have explaining to
people why I bear witness to thehistories of lynching and racial
violence.
I can tell you in a phrase,Healing history, healing
history, healing history.
I truly believe we can heal fromour painful, traumatic past.
(02:26):
I teach students not just toknow, I teach students to care
about these histories because Ibelieve knowledge is a pathway
to caring.
Right?
Knowledge is a pathway to caringand being compassionate towards
histories and not just thehistories, that the histories
have impacted, knowledge is apathway to caring.
(02:49):
And if we can position people toauthentically know and care
about these histories, I thinkat that intersection of
compassion, and knowledge istransformation.
And so my mission and purpose isalways to teach students to care
about these histories oflynching and racial violence
(03:09):
that I write about.
Don Drew (03:10):
Your statement, "knowledge being a pathway to
caring," is such a beautifulsentiment has a lot to do with
what we want to accomplishtoday.
But your primary expertise is inthe Tulsa Race Massacre.
We don't have a long program,but I do think that it would be
good for our listeners to hear alittle about what happened on
May 31st and June 1st, 1921.
Karlos Hill (03:31):
So I'm a Black studies historian of lynching
and racial violence.
But the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacreis what I'm most known for
because of the community workand the commission's work to
shift the nation's understandingof what happened from a riot to
a massacre.
That was profound, and I wasblessed to be a part of it.
(03:54):
What we need to understand aboutthe 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre,
what happened on May 31st, June1st, 1921 is that it was the
deadliest attack on an Americancommunity, right, in this
country's history.
Some would call what happened inTulsa, the largest disturbance
after the Civil War, thedeadliest attack on a Black
(04:15):
community in American history,or an American community.
That's the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre.
What does that really mean?
That means between 16 and 18hours, a community estimated
about 11,000 Black people, Blacksouls, with a 40 block area was
destroyed in a matter of hours,I want to say 14 to 16 hours.
(04:39):
The only buildings leftstanding, or intact, were Booker
T Washington School.
But other than Booker TWashington, every significant
building in that community,homes, schools, hospitals, all
manner of businesses destroyedby a violent mob numbering in
(05:01):
the thousands.
So when we talk about the racemassacre, we have to put it into
proper perspective.
It's not just an attack on aBlack community.
It's not just the destruction ofbusinesses and homes.
It's the deadliest attack on aBlack community., An American
community in our nation'shistory.
And it's not only the deadliest,I would say it's one of our most
(05:24):
defining histories.
So when we talk about Greenwood,when we talk about Black Wall
Street, when we talk about theTulsa Race Massacre, it carries
a heaviness because it is suchan important history.
David Lowry (05:38):
Dr.
Hill, I'm ashamed to say, but itis the truth, I've lived in
Oklahoma since 2005.
I did not even know about thisuntil about five years ago.
Never heard a word about this,but of course, nothing about
lynchings either.
There's so much history I'venever heard about.
But a question I have is, whatare some of the myths and
(06:00):
discoveries about this massacrethat challenges our previous
understandings of all of this?
Karlos Hill (06:06):
I think I suggested it earlier.
When the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre was mentioned, it was
often mentioned as a riot, as aconflict, or a racial conflict
between Blacks and Whites thatspilled over into the Black
community and resulted in thatcommunity being destroyed.
(06:30):
But essentially when it'sunderstood as a race riot, it's
a history that centers Blackpeople as the perpetrators,
Black people, as the reason forwhy it occurred.
And when it was referenced, itwas always referenced as a riot.
But the deeper history of themassacre was a history of
(06:52):
suppression.
Following June 1st.
There was never a systematicinvestigation of the causes.
Who was to blame?
Why did this quote unquote riotturn into destruction of the
Black community?
Those questions, were neveranswered, were never even
explored, in part because of theracism and the White supremacy
(07:17):
of the era.
It simply was never going to bean option for the White men who
were responsible for thedestruction, to be held
culpable, or accountable forthat destruction.
That ran counter to the time,right?
I studied the lynching era.
And the lynching era is allabout the ways in which White
(07:39):
people, could pretty much treatBlack people with impunity, and
without the risk of any kind of,punishment or ramifications for
their behavior.
And that was the same withGreenwood.
And so the Whites who, beginningat 5:00 AM on June 1st, and
(08:00):
numbering in the thousandsagain, who entered Greenwood
simultaneously, and began tosystematically destroy homes,
businesses, and kill innocentpeople, those individuals did
that with the knowledge theywould never be held responsible.
And I was able, as a historian,document what happened a hundred
(08:23):
years ago, 103 years ago now,because the members of the mob
who participated in the violencetook pictures of the
destruction, knowing full wellthat it would never be held
responsible for that violence,even when they were pictured in
the photographs.
So for so many reasons, Iunderstand the 19 21 Tulsa Race
(08:45):
Massacre as a part of lynchingculture, the culture of
lynching.
And in fact, an allegation ofsexual assault, is what
precipitated the 1921 Tulsa RaceMassacre and the calls to lynch
Dick Roland, the man who wassupposed to have sexually
(09:05):
assaulted a White woman inTulsa, Sarah Page.
It was those allegations thatbrought White men downtown,
calling for the lynching of DickRoland, but ultimately it was
the Black men who came downtownto defend Dick Roland who became
ensnared with White members ofthe mob and led to the melee
(09:28):
that led to the eruption ofviolence.
So the start of that violencewas this allegation of sexual
assault, something that issynonymous with lynching and
lynching culture.
That is what precipitated the1921 Race massacre and led to it
becoming a massacre, an assaulton the Black community.
(09:53):
That angle, that part of thehistory has been the most
suppressed.
And I have argued it's been themost suppressed because that's
the story that survivors andvictims told about what
happened.
Don Drew (10:06):
Dr.
Hill, just for our listeners, alittle additional background.
When you refer to Greenwood,that is the Black district where
the massacre took place oftenreferred to as Black Wall
Street, indicating that area wasa very, financially successful
venture for the Black community.
David Lowry (10:22):
Do you think that played into this massacre
mentality as well?
Karlos Hill (10:27):
Greenwood, is a part of Tulsa, at 1921, a city
of a hundred thousand,Greenwood, about 11,000
residents in that neighborhood,that 40 block area.
What I can say from reallycarefully studying the photos,
the individuals who snapped thepictures of the destruction who
were likely a part of theviolence, when they left
(10:51):
annotations on the photographs,some of which became postcards
that they sent through the mailof the destruction and the loss
of life, I noticed, and notedthat there were notations that
referenced Greenwood orGreenwood Black Wall Street.
Instead of referring to it inthat way, it was referred on
(11:12):
those photographs as Dark Town.
Not only as Dark Town but AfricaTown.
And if you know anything aboutthe early 20th century, those
were racial epithets.
Those were meant to disparageGreenwood not honor it, not give
(11:33):
it respect, its due.
Those photographs helped me tounderstand the deep resentment
there was to the affluence ofGreenwood.
We have to remember in 1921,Greenwood was a symbol of what
was economically possible inBlack America.
(11:53):
Black America at this time,particularly in the South, by
and large, Black people arelandless sharecroppers.
All that to say Greenwood was asymbol of what was possible in
an urban context.
Part of the reason why it wasknown as Black Wall Street
(12:13):
wasn't because there were banksor financial institutions of
note, it was because, Greenwoodwas the home of some of the most
respected Black businesses inthe country, like the Dreamland
Theater owned by the Williamsfamily, John and Lula Williams,
(12:36):
who migrated to Tulsa in theearly 19 hundreds.
Black entrepreneurs, who madethe Dream land into a national
theater with national cachet.
There was a Stratford hotelknown as one of the finest Black
hotels in the country.
Because of the reputation ofthose businesses and the support
(12:57):
from the community, there wereat least six millionaires in
Greenwood by 1921.
There were other Blackcommunities, and there were
other Black wall streets.
I'm actually writing a bookright now on the Black Wall
Streets of America.
There's a Black Wall Street inRichmond, Virginia, in Durham,
North Carolina, Atlanta,Chicago.
(13:19):
We can name a few.
So there were other communitieswhere Black people were
prosperous, but in the Jim CrowSouth, Greenwood was a symbol
and Booker T Washington, invisiting Oklahoma, labeled
Greenwood the Negro Wall Streetof America because the promise
it represented.
(13:40):
And the resentment of WhiteTulsan's was, how could this
community gather up so muchwealth, so much resources?
It was affront to the Whitesupremacy of that day, and the
photographs helped to reveal it.
David Lowry (13:56):
This is sometimes called difficult history.
Do you find special challengesas you tell these stories and
make your students aware ofwhat's happened in our past?
Karlos Hill (14:08):
These histories are difficult because we're afraid
to confront them.
We're afraid to talk about them.
We don't quite know how to talkabout them with compassion and
sensitivity.
And when that is the case itcreates a reticence to want to
engage to want to talk aboutthese histories.
(14:31):
The way in which I try to makestudents and audiences
comfortable in talking aboutthese difficult pasts that are
really emotionally charged,politically charged, is to say
to them that we can heal.
Healing is possible for our mosttraumatic histories, right?
(14:52):
And the pathway to that isunderstanding those histories
authentically.
Understanding those histories oflynching and racial violence,
racial massacres, the hardhistory of slavery, the hard
history of this country.
How do you authenticallyunderstand those histories?
I believe having studied andserved in the capacity that I
(15:16):
have, the 1921 Race Massacre,the best way to position people
to authentically understand thedifficult past is to center
victims and survivors in thetelling of those histories.
That positions contemporaryaudiences to understand where
the grievances are, where thepain and suffering is, where the
(15:40):
debates about restitution are,and what those communities are
owed or deserve today.
When we center thosecommunities, we understand those
histories better and why theyare difficult pasts today.
When we suppress the authentichistories of lynching and racial
(16:02):
violence, we remove from itthose individuals, those
communities, as if they didn'texist, as if they weren't
crucial to it.
And I would argue that in themoment that we have right now
where we see our histories, thedesire to discuss the difficult
histories of slavery and the1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, we are
(16:27):
doing to the next generationwhat was done to your
generation.
We're suppressing thosehistories and making it possible
that a hundred years from nowthere will be people who say,
Wow, I never learned about The1921 Race Massacre.
I didn't hear about that until Iwas into my forties or fifties.
(16:47):
That is what our politic ispositioning the next generations
to say if we don't speak up,because that's what happened in
the 1920s and thirties as itrelates to the race massacre.
So we're at a real inflectionpoint in terms of these
histories and whether or not wewill continue to be honest about
(17:09):
them.
Don Drew (17:10):
Despite your work in this dark history that you're
talking about, the murder ofEmett Till, the lynchings, the
massacre, despite all that, Ifind you to be positive in your
approach.
And one of the things I believeyou advocate is racial dialogue.
How can we as people in a secondhalf of life, reengage, if you
will, in history and opendialogue in positive and
(17:33):
effective ways?
Karlos Hill (17:34):
I would say that my greatest growth as a Black
studies historian is to not onlyrealize that I have a
relationship, but to own myrelationship to the Black past.
And I would say to everyonelistening, we all, every one of
us, White, Black, Brown, have arelationship to the Black past.
(17:57):
The only question is whether wecare about that relationship or
not.
I truly believe everyone canhave a healing relationship with
the Black past, centered on adeep compassion for not just the
history, but the peopleconnected to that history.
(18:18):
I think it's available to all ofus.
And it really takes anindividual who wants to grow in
this part of their life, toreally recognize that they have
a relationship with that past.
And that if they can figure outwhy they care, that is where the
(18:40):
transformation happens.
Individuals, communitiesrealizing, coming to realize,
not individually, but together,why they care about these
histories and how thesehistories show up today, I think
you can't grow and transform inyour head.
You have to dialogue, engagewith people around these
(19:03):
histories, and in the process ofdoing that, we grow, we
transform.
But I believe it starts withknowing and believing that we
can have a relationship with theBlack past.
And there's a process by whichone does this.
It's not just willy-nilly now.
Healing history is amethodology, but I'm saying
(19:26):
people have to believe that theycan have a relationship and they
have to understand that reallytruly caring about that
relationship is what will helpthem to grow in it.
David Lowry (19:36):
I know there's so much more that needs to be done
and certainly something I needto know more about.
But do you have any other ideasor suggestions that we could
start to do to bring abouthealing and taking our part in
Black history as well?
I love how you include all of usin that.
Karlos Hill (19:53):
These processes are difficult.
They're hard, they're notlinear.
What I'm really trying tosuggest is realizing a personal
relationship with the Black pastis something really amorphous to
people.
Oftentimes when we talk aboutrelationships to the past,
individuals think about directrelationships, ancestral
(20:17):
relationships, familialrelationships, direct ties, and
I'm suggesting that is a part ofit.
But there's something bigger,right?
And we can have an effectiverelationship to the Black past,
an understanding about the Blackpast in terms of why we care
(20:38):
about it.
Dialoguing with ourselves and incommunity around histories like
the race massacre, help toreveal the why we care as
individuals and communities.
And where we care is where wecan engage and where we can get
(20:58):
active and where we can dothings together to confront the
ways in which the history showsup today.
In Tulsa, how does the racemassacre show up today?
Where are the dialogueshappening about how the history
shows up today that we need toconfront and deal with?
It's around the history ofrestitution and repair.
(21:19):
It's around the history and thesearch for mass graves.
And it's also around whether ornot the last two survivors of
the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacrewill receive restitution.
I've mentioned there are twoliving survivors.
Not only are there two livingsurvivors who were alive in 1921
(21:43):
who experienced the violence,Greenwood was a survivor.
It survived the attack.
And the community deservesrepair.
These are large issues forpeople in the community to care
about, have compassion for, andto learn about.
These things cannot be done inisolation.
One cannot grow just by readingor by knowing.
(22:05):
One has to grow by knowing andcaring.
And by caring, get involved andget activated.
That's where transformation is.
It's no different for me thenfor you.
I could not talk the way that Italk about the race massacre,
just because I'm a historianlistening and racial violence.
I talk the way I talk about itbecause I've been deeply engaged
in these struggles and beentransformed by them.
(22:26):
If people truly are aftertransformation and growth, that
is the path.
You can't do it from thesidelines.
You can't do it by reading aboutit in isolation.
Growth in terms of having ahealing relationship with these
paths is rooted in dialogue,discussion, understanding, and
(22:46):
ultimately how we can cometogether to do something about
how these history show up.
I would be remiss if I didn'tmention, the most important
thing that I'm working on rightnow is really figuring out how I
can develop and perfect ahealing history curriculum for
(23:07):
students and adults.
I really want to perfect how wetake people who perhaps may not
have a lot of knowledge aboutthe Black past.
Help them to understand thatthey have a relationship to it.
And to understand thatcompassion is a key component to
an effective relationship withthe Black past.
(23:29):
And then dialoguing with themabout their personal
relationship, getting into theiridentity'cause you can't talk
about one's relationships tohistory without talking about
one's identity.
All those things I'm trying toperfect in my classroom so that
I'm assured when students takemy class, I've positioned them
(23:51):
to care.
I've positioned them to not justto know about the history, but
to care about the history andthe people today connected to
the communities connected tothose histories.
That is my role as a Blackstudies historian who not just
teaches about the Black past, Ibear witness to the Black past,
(24:13):
and because of that, I have toposition others to bear witness
too.
And so I really care about myhealing history, pedagogy,
methodology, and really,transforming students in the
process.
Don Drew (24:29):
Dr Hill, your Passion is evident here.
I just wanna let you know howmuch we appreciate you.
You have j ust recently writtenthe 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, a
Photographic history, it's outthere as well as your other
books.
What are you planning on workingon now?
You mentioned a book project.
What else are you working on?
Karlos Hill (24:48):
Thank you for that question.
In 2023, I had the opportunityto edit Clara Luper's.
Behold the Wall Clara Luper forthe audience is often referred
to as the mother of the OklahomaCivil Rights Movement.
For the last seven years or so,I have been a member of the
(25:08):
Clara Luper Legacy Committee, acommittee that is tasked with
honoring Clara Luper's Life andLegacy.
That's a project that stemmedfrom my work on the Legacy
Committee.
I would really encourage theaudience to take a look at
Behold the Walls.
It is a memoir of the OklahomaCity civil Rights Movement.
(25:28):
The good news of that book isthat a second edition, actually
a soft copy, will be availablebeginning in the fall of 2025.
So the book will be republished'cause of the success of the
first.
The two books that I'm workingon right now have to do with
Greenwood and Clara Luper.
So the Clara Luper book will bea graphic history of the Katz
(25:53):
drug store sit-in.
I'm working with a fabulousgraphic artist to render it.
I'm really behind.
I promised Marilyn Luper, thedaughter of Clara Luper about
two years ago that I would beworking feverishly on this book
and get it out in a timelyfashion.
That has not happened.
(26:13):
The reason why she's waiting forthis with bated breath is I
promised that she would be thenarrator of the graphic history.
It would be told in her voiceand her aesthetic.
The name of that book will betitled Freedoms Classroom
because Clara Luper turned herclassroom into a freedoms
(26:36):
classroom were taught ageneration of students how to be
democratic citizens, how tofight for democracy how to fight
for justice.
And we're gonna talk how shelived at the intersection of
education and activism.
She led a movement from there.
King led a movement from thepulpit.
Malcolm X led a movement from,we can say from a pulpit.
(27:00):
You had Asa Randolph as a laboractivist.
You had James Baldwin as anintellectual.
Clara Lupa was a teacher whomobilized students as young as
seven to be activists.
And so Clara Luper is a hero ofmine.
I've learned to revere her as aheroine because of my service on
(27:21):
the Legacy committee and seeinghow 65 years later her students
are as passionate about her, inher absence as she was when she
was living.
I'm writing a book with CarlaSlocum, a great anthropologist
historian of Oklahoma, but alsoof the African diaspora.
(27:43):
She's at University of NorthCarolina, Capitol Hill.
I'm working with her on thisbook on the Long Black Wall
Street Movement.
There were multiple Black WallStreets.
Don Drew (27:57):
Some of us can't go back to school but we can
continue to grow, to know andthen care as a byproduct of
that, and hopefully findpositive ways to bring greater
racial peace and harmony tothose around us.
Karlos Hill (28:10):
I've been talking about healing, healing, healing,
healing, healing.
And I just wanna say veryquickly, the reason why I center
healing is because I believe ifthere's no healing, there's no
future.
And so healing is essential toprogress.
Without it, we're doomed to bestuck in these antagonisms that
(28:32):
don't have to be.
So healing for me is so crucial,and that's why I talk about
healing history versus difficulthistories.
David Lowry (28:41):
You've been listening to Dr.
Carlos Hill, Professor ofAfrican and African American
Studies at the University ofOklahoma.
He's the author of three books.
Professor, thank you foreverything you've said today and
for challenging us to understandour relationship to Black
History and Healing Dialogue.
Thank you for being our guesttoday on Peaceful Life Radio.
Karlos Hill (29:04):
Thank you for having me..
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