Episode Transcript
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Cameron Huddleston (00:00):
The Federal
Trade Commission estimates that
(00:02):
adults 60 and older lost anestimated$61.5 billion to fraud
and scams in 2023 alone.
That's billion with a B, notmillion, not thousand, but$61.5
billion in one year.
Scammers think, Hey, thesepeople are sitting on a big
(00:25):
retirement nest egg.
They're getting a regular incomefrom a pension or from social
security.
And they're going where themoney is, and they see older
adults as that big cash cow thatthey wanna target.
David Lowry (00:37):
That was Cameron
Huddleston, an award-winning
personal finance journalist anda person who's gonna teach us a
lot about how to avoid beingscammed.
She's our guest today onPeaceful Life Radio.
I'm David Lowry.
With me today is my good friendDon Drew.
Don, how are you doing?
Don Drew (00:54):
I'm doing great today,
David, and I'm ready to get to
it.
David Lowry (00:56):
Me too, and I'm
really excited about the guest,
we have today.
I know that you and Cameron havebeen talking to each other and
sending emails.
Tell us about our guest todayand let's get started.
Don Drew (01:06):
Sure, David.
Cameron Huddleston is anaward-winning personal finance
journalist and author of Mom andDad, We Need to Talk: How to
have essential ConversationsWith Your Parents About Their
Finances.
Her work has appeared in AARP,Forbes, Kiplinger Personal
Finance, and many more onlinepublications.
She was a caregiver for morethan 12 years for her mom who
(01:28):
had Alzheimer's disease.
She is currently the editor atlarge at Careful, a financial
safety service built to protectolder adults' finances from
fraud scams, and money mistakes.
Cameron Huddleston, welcome toPeaceful Life Radio.
Cameron Huddleston (01:42):
Thank you so
much for having me.
Don Drew (01:44):
We're really glad to
have you with us today.
Let's get started with yourbook.
Now your book covers how to talkto mom and dad about a lot of
different topics and one ofthose chapters in there is
particularly about scams, fraudsand how to talk to your parents
about those kinds of things.
Why is this an importantconversation to have?
Cameron Huddleston (02:02):
Well, let me
throw some figures out there for
you.
The Federal Trade Commissionestimates that adults 60 and
older lost an estimated$61.5billion to fraud and scams in
2023 alone.
And those are the latest figuresthat they have.
(02:24):
That's billion with a B, notmillion, not thousand, but$61.5
billion in one year.
And I use the word estimatebecause, reported losses are
lower, but they're estimatingthis based on the fact that a
lot of people don't even reportthey've been scammed.
And so they can look at thereports they have and get an
(02:44):
estimate of how many people areactually being scammed, not
reporting their losses.
And so it's a huge number andit's a huge problem.
So obviously we're talking aboutolder adults and parents.
Anyone can become a victim of ascam, but scammers love to
target older adults because theysee them as a source of cash.
David Lowry (03:06):
Some people think I
would never be caught in a scam.
I'm too smart for that.
But my aunt, as she got older,was scammed out of$30,000.
And this woman worked for theAtomic Energy Commission.
She was a brilliant lady.
So when you have all of yourfaculties with you and
everything's clicking, of courseyou're not gonna fall for a lot
(03:27):
of these things.
But as you get older, you mightbe surprised that a brilliant
woman like this could be easilyscammed out of$30,000.
So I'm with you on that.
Don Drew (03:37):
Are older adults, more
vulnerable to scams?
Cameron Huddleston (03:39):
The answer
is yes and no.
They are more vulnerable, butnot necessarily for the reasons
you might think now.
Yes, dementia and cognitivedecline, those things can
increase vulnerability.
But one of the key reasons olderadults are more vulnerable, as I
mentioned, is that scammers seethem as a source of cash.
(04:03):
They think, Hey, these peopleare sitting on a big retirement
nest egg.
They are thinking that they'regetting a regular income from a
pension or from social security.
And so they're going where themoney is, and they see older
adults as that big cash cow thatthey wanna target.
Now, there are some factors thatcan make someone more vulnerable
(04:24):
as they age.
Like I mentioned, the cognitivedecline, isolation.
If you are alone, then you getthat phone call and you're
desperate for socialinteraction, you're more likely
to stay on the phone with ascammer.
And even those of us who are notexperiencing any sort of
cognitive decline in the senseof dementia or Alzheimer's, as
(04:45):
we age, our financial decisionmaking ability is impacted.
Our risk tolerance is impacted,and those red flags that would
normally go up for us, they'renot going up so quickly as we
age.
And this happens to all of us.
And so when you combine thelarge amount of money that
(05:05):
scammers think that older peoplehave with some of these risk
factors, then yes, older adultscan be more vulnerable Now
statistics show that actuallyyounger adults are more likely
to report being victims ofscams, but when older adults are
victims, they lose more money.
Again, it goes back to the factthat they often have more money
than younger adults.
David Lowry (05:23):
So I know that the
scams are getting more
sophisticated, our emails aremore suspicious.
All kinds of things happening tous today.
Texts coming into your phone.
People claiming to be familymembers who are caught somewhere
in a foreign country and needinghelp to get home.
I mean, they're everywhere.
What sort of scam should you bewarning your parents about?
Cameron Huddleston (05:46):
There are so
many scams that you have to be
aware of and again, researchshows that the more aware you
are of a particular scam, theless likely you are going to be
to interact with that scam andto lose money with it.
But the problem is becausescammers are always coming up
with new stories, your beststrategy is to warn your parents
(06:07):
about red flags because allscams have common red flags.
Here's a big one.
If you get a call or a textmessage or an email from a
government agency, it's a scam.
100% it's a scam becausegovernment agencies, they're not
gonna email you.
They're not gonna call you.
(06:27):
And certainly now with all thecuts to government agencies and
the lower staffing, the IRS isnot gonna call you up.
It will communicate with you bymail.
So warn your parents if they'regetting a call or an email or a
text message or a direct messageon social media from someone
claiming to be with a governmentagency.
It's a scam.
Do not interact.
(06:48):
So that's a big one.
Another red flag if there's asense of urgency.
So you get that email or textmessage warning you that
something bad is gonna happen ifyou don't act now, or you're
gonna miss out on an opportunityto win a big prize, get some
money, even get a freebie.
Scammers like to use a sense ofurgency so that you're not
(07:11):
thinking rationally, so thatyou're thinking emotionally.
So if you're getting a messagetelling you something bad is
gonna happen, step back and say,Hey, huh, is there something
really wrong going on with myaccount?
If it is, don't respond to thattext message or the email.
Warn your parents to reach outdirectly to the company that is
(07:32):
supposedly trying to contactthem.
If they're getting a messagefrom their bank, don't click on
the link in the message.
Don't call it back.
Get on the phone and call yourbank directly.
So sense of urgency, Another redflag, if you're being asked to
make an unusual form of payment.
Scammers are gonna tell you topurchase a gift card to make a
(07:53):
payment.
They're gonna tell you to wiremoney.
They're gonna tell you to go toa cryptocurrency ATM and send
them Bitcoin.
If you're being asked to make anunusual form of payment, it is
most likely a scam.
So these are some of the reallybig red flags that are out
there.
If anyone is telling you thatyou need to give them remote
access to your computer, likeyou get a popup on your computer
(08:16):
that says virus warning, viruswarning, call this number right
now or click on this link andwe're gonna help you.
Don't do it.
Scammers will pretend to be withMicrosoft or antivirus
companies.
They're gonna call, they'regonna put popups on your
computer and they're gonna tryto get remote access.
Once they have access to yourcomputer, it is game over.
(08:38):
They can do so much damage.
So warn your parents, never giveanyone remote access to your
computer.
Again, if they think they have aproblem, tell them to call you.
Tell them to go to Best Buydirectly.
But never give anyone remoteaccess to your computer.
I do happen to have on mywebsite, which is cameron
huddleston.com, if you go toresources, I've got this free
(09:01):
scam red flags sheet that youcan download and print out and
give to your parents.
Tell'em to put it up by thephone, put it on the
refrigerator, and it's gonna belike a warning.
Anytime they get that call oremail or text message, they can
look at it and say, Hey, is thisone of those scam red flags that
I should be aware of?
Don Drew (09:18):
You mentioned that
there's a lot of scams out there
and of course the red flags helpidentify them, but there's no
way that we can list all ofthose.
A big recommendation of yours inyour book is to stay on top of
the latest scams.
What are some of the otherreliable resources for staying
on top so that they can advisetheir parents?
Cameron Huddleston (09:35):
Sure.
So AARP, aarp.org, is a greatresource.
They have a fraud watch, so youcan go to the website, find out
what some of the latest scamsare.
Better Business Bureau trackscams.
You can even sign up to receiveemails from the Better Business
Bureau when they get alertsabout the latest scams.
(09:55):
The company that I that I writefor called Careful and it's the
website is Get Careful,G-E-T-C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L.com.
I put up scam alerts on our blogall of the time.
I just wrote one today about afake PayPal invoice scam, and so
you can get alerts that way.
(10:16):
There are lots of resources outthere where you can get
information about the latestscams that are circulating.
David Lowry (10:21):
There are so many
scams out there, like you said,
and you can't possibly keeptrack of all of them.
What are some signs that yourparents are being victimized?
Cameron Huddleston (10:31):
Here's a big
one.
If you have a parent who issingle, perhaps divorced, or one
of your parents passed away, andyour parent is talking about a
new friend or a new loveinterest.
You need to ask questions, justlike your parents would've asked
you questions if you starteddating someone in high school,
(10:52):
who is this guy?
Who is this girl?
You need to do the same withyour parents.
You wanna say, Oh, well that'sgreat that you've met someone.
How did you meet this person?
You wanna find out if yourparent met someone online.
That's the first red flag.
And of course, people are usingdating sites, that's very normal
(11:13):
now.
But then you wanna say, Okay,you met online.
Have you met in person?
And if your parents say, Well,this person is working overseas.
They're living overseas, so wehaven't met in person yet.
Another red flag, becausescammers will go onto dating
sites and create fake profiles.
They will go onto social media.
(11:34):
And they will interact withpeople's posts and say, Oh my
gosh, I loved your picture ofyour cat.
I love cats.
You seem like a really niceperson.
And they're trying to strike upa friendship with you online.
And they're gonna pay attentionto your social media profiles.
Does it say single?
Does it say, divorce?
'cause people will put that intheir Facebook profile.
(11:54):
You know that they're single orthey're married or they're in a
relationship.
So they're looking for thosesort of things, and they're
looking for someone who isrecently divorced or recently
widowed, because that's a reallyeasy way to manipulate someone
emotionally.
They know that they're lookingfor love and connection.
And so you're gonna ask thesequestions about your parents and
find out like, have they met theperson?
(12:16):
Are they overseas?
Are they asking for money?
And warn your parents.
Look, if you're, if you've metsomeone online and they start
asking for money, please, pleasecome to me.
Let's have a conversation first.
Don Drew (12:29):
These can't be easy
conversations either.
I just re remind everybody, thetitle of your book is Mom and
Dad.
We need to Talk, how to HaveEssential Conversations with
your parents about theirfinances and in this case, scams
and fraud and things of thatnature.
How difficult are theseconversations?
Cameron Huddleston (12:44):
I think the
scam conversation is a lot
easier than some of the otherconversations that people need
to be having with their parentsbecause any of us can become a
victim of a scam at any time.
And so you can say, Hey, I justsaw this article about a scam.
Let me share it with you.
Or I just got a call fromsomeone claiming to be with the
IRS, or I got a call fromsomeone claiming to be a sheriff
(13:05):
saying that I didn't show up forjury duty and that I had to pay
a fine.
It's really easy.
To have that sort ofconversation, in my opinion,
because you can use your ownexperience or you can share
articles you've read with yourparents and say, Oh my gosh, I
almost fell for this.
I wanted to warn you.
So, here's some information.
David Lowry (13:25):
Wow, Cameron,
there's a lot of things we have
to be aware of as we go into thesecond half of life.
What should you do if yourparent is the victim of a scam
or a fraud?
Cameron Huddleston (13:35):
The most
important thing that you should
not do is blame your parents.
You do not wanna say somethinglike, Oh my gosh, mom, I cannot
believe you fell for this scam.
It's so obvious.
You want your parent to feelcomfortable coming to you and
letting you know that you're avictim.
(13:56):
And if they feel like you aregoing to blame them, they're not
gonna come to you.
And if you do blame them, thenof course they're gonna shut
down.
They're embarrassed, and so whatyou wanna do is say, Okay.
Tell me what information youshared with the scammer, or what
did you give them?
A credit card number?
Did you make a payment?
Let's act quickly to limit thedamage.
(14:17):
And so for example, let's sayyour parents said, Well, the
scammer talked me into sharingmy credit card number.
Okay.
What we're gonna do is we'regonna call the credit card
company and we're gonna cancelthat credit card right away.
Or we're gonna call the bank andask them to cancel that
transaction or alert the bankthat there was a fraudulent
transaction made.
(14:38):
If your parents shared personalinformation, like a social
security number, what you wannado is help them go place a
freeze on all of their creditreports at each of the three
credit bureaus, Experian,Equifax, and TransUnion, because
scammers can use thatinformation to open up new lines
(14:59):
of credit, new accounts in yourparents' names.
So once you put that creditfreeze on their credit reports,
these new accounts can't beopened in their name.
And you want to use identitymonitoring to get alerts if your
parents personal information isbeing misused or sold on the
dark web.
You wanna set up creditmonitoring.
There is a great website thatyou can direct your parents to.
(15:22):
It's identity theft.gov.
And this is gonna allow them toreport if their identity has
been stolen.
It's gonna give them actionsteps to use.
And so what you wanna do reallyis help them limit that damage
as quick as possible.
Also, help them go to the policeand fire file a report.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat the police are gonna catch
(15:43):
the scammer, but it's importantto have that police report
because they might need it downthe road again if their identity
was stolen and it's used to openfraudulent accounts, make
fraudulent charges, or stealtheir identity, and then go
commit crimes.
Don Drew (15:59):
You make a great point
there, and I was just thinking
to myself, okay, so credit cardnumbers, that's serious, it's
immediate, it's quick.
But what are some of thecritical pieces of information?
We all have bits and pieces ofinformation about ourselves.
But what are some of the morecritical pieces, like for
instance, social securitynumbers, birth dates, things of
that nature.
Cameron Huddleston (16:18):
Your social
security number is a big one.
If someone gets that number,they can do a whole lot of
damage, and so you want toencourage your parents to keep
that number safe.
Make sure they're not carryingtheir social security card in
their wallet.
Encourage them never to give itout on the phone.
(16:39):
If you get an unsolicited call,don't give it out over email or
a text message.
Even if they're going to thedoctor's office and the doctor
asks, or they're asking at thereception desk to fill it in,
ask them, do I really have toprovide it?
Oftentimes you don't.
Your social security number canbe stolen off those forms that
you fill out.
So warn your parents to guardthat social security number with
(17:04):
their lives.
Birthdays.
That's another important pieceof information.
Don't put it on Facebook.
If you really want people towish you happy birthday, don't
put the year at least, put thatyou were born in 1900 because
the more information scammershave about you, the easier it is
for them to steal your identity.
(17:25):
Sharing your maiden name onsocial media, sharing your
children's names, because as youmentioned earlier, those person
in need scams.
You get a call from someoneclaiming to be your kids or your
grandkids.
Scammers are now using AI tocopy people's voices.
So if you are sharing picturesof your grandkids on social
(17:48):
media and their names, oh mygosh, I'm so excited that Sally
just graduated from such andsuch university.
So there's her name, herpicture.
A lot of younger people are onsocial media, on Instagram, on
TikTok, and scammer can go trackthem down, get a snippet of
their voice, and then copy it.
And the next thing you know,you're getting a call from
(18:10):
supposedly your grandkidclaiming that they're in trouble
and they need you to send money.
So the less information you putout there on public spaces, the
better off you're going to be.
David Lowry (18:20):
I noticed in
chapter 11 you talk about your
parents and scammers, but yourbook is also aimed at helping
adult children with agingparents about any number of
issues, and would love for youto talk about some of those.
Cameron Huddleston (18:30):
Sure.
So the reason I wrote this bookwas because I did not have
financial conversations with myparents soon enough.
My father actually passed awayat the age of 61, and even
though he was an attorney, hedied without a will and he was
in a second marriage.
So of course I can look back andthink, well gee, if only I had
(18:53):
had a conversation with him'cause my mother had encouraged
me to.
When my father was still livingand they were divorced, she
said, you need to talk to yourdad and ask him what his final
wishes are because he wouldalways jokingly say, sharpen my
toes and hammer me into theground.
And I didn't listen to her.
I was like, well, but I'm in mytwenties, I, why do I need to
have this conversation with mydad now?
(19:14):
And I wish I had, because itcould have led to conversations
like, of course you have a will,don't you dad?
And turned out he didn't.
And then, my mother wasdiagnosed at 65 with Alzheimer's
disease.
I had some conversations withher, but not enough.
And suddenly I found myselfscrambling to get the
information I needed.
So I wanted to help peoplerealize they need to have these
(19:36):
conversations sooner rather thanlater.
You need to find out, do yourparents have those essential
estate planning documents?
A will?
A power of attorney that namessomeone to make financial
decisions for them if theycan't?
Healthcare power of attorneys,someone to make medical
decisions for them if theycan't?
A living will that spells outwhat sort of end of life medical
(19:57):
care they do or do not want?
These documents have to be inplace and signed while you're
still mentally competent.
If mom has Alzheimer's and she'sin the middle stage of
Alzheimer's, it's too late atthat point.
You're needing to get involvedand make financial transactions
for mom but you can't becauseyou're not named her power of
attorney.
(20:17):
You wanna find out some otherthings.
What are their plans forretirement?
Do they have enough money tolive comfortably in retirement?
What are their plans forlong-term care?
How would they pay for it ifthey need it?
Are they expecting you to carefor them?
Lots of conversations need to behad before an emergency strikes.
David Lowry (20:35):
I want to agree
with you about those documents
you need to have from yourparents about living wills and
about conservator guardianshipand who makes decisions in
certain cases.
I recently had to assume theguardianship and conservatorship
of my sister who had no suchpapers.
$40,000 later to go throughcourt cost.
It's an elaborate process.
(20:56):
The courts do not just hand thatover to you.
And then once you get it done,you'll find that many agencies
still won't talk to you.
You can have the papers signedby judges.
You can send them in to pensioncompanies and things like that
and they have their own processfor going through these things.
It's a real hassle.
And I'm not kidding you.
So I'm with you on that one.
Cameron Huddleston (21:17):
Sure, and
they would only have to spend,
depending on where they live,maybe a thousand,$2,000 to get a
full suite of estate planningdocuments.
The will.
Powers of attorney.
The living will or advanceddirective.
That's a lot cheaper than whatyou would force your children or
family members to spend to gothrough the court process to be
(21:38):
named conservator or guardian.
Don Drew (21:40):
Cameron, one of the
chapters in your book is a
step-by-step approach to havinga successful conversation about
a lot of these very, challengingor difficult financial questions
and issues.
Can you give us some tips on howto do that right?
Cameron Huddleston (21:54):
Sure.
A lot of times people think thatthe best time to have these
conversations is during theholidays because they think,
Well, we're all here together.
My siblings are here, my parentsare here.
So pass the Turkey, and let'stalk about your will, mom and
dad, or let's talk about yourplans for long-term care.
This is not the right time tohave a conversation.
(22:16):
You want to find a time whenpeople aren't in a rush.
People aren't stressed, whereyou can sit down and actually
have a series of conversations.
You don't wanna grill yourparents for hours about this.
But you actually wanna talk toyour siblings first, if you have
siblings, so that all of you canget on the same page and decide
(22:38):
who's gonna initiate theconversation, whether it's one
of you or all of you, whenyou're gonna do it again, not at
a holiday meal.
And then, when you have yourplan for talking to your
parents, there are a variety ofways that you can have the
conversation naturally.
If money has been a topic ofconversation in your family and
(23:00):
you don't shy away from it,there's nothing wrong with
taking a direct approach.
Saying something like, Mom anddad, you always took such good
care of us.
As you get older, we wanna makesure that we are there to help
care for you, if you ever needour help.
To do that, though we need someinformation.
We need some information aboutyour finances.
We need to know about yourwishes so that we are managing
(23:24):
your money in a way that youwould wanna manage so that we
can follow your wishes.
If money is not a taboo topic inyour family.
If it is, then, you might haveto be a little sneakier about
it.
And I don't mean underhanded.
I just mean you might have tosay something like telling them
a story about a friend or acolleague who had to get
(23:46):
involved with their parents'finances.
It can be a story about howthings went well because the
parent had done a lot ofplanning and had conversations,
or it could be a cautionary taleabout how there had been no
conversations, the kids wereleft wondering what to do, or
maybe the kids ended up in courtfighting over who was gonna get
what because the parents didn'thave a will.
So you can use a story.
(24:07):
If you're still relativelyyoung, you can ask your parents
for financial advice becausewhat do parents love to do?
Give their kids advice.
And so it avoids that rolereversal.
Mom and dad, I just got married.
Does that mean that I need tohave a will now?
Should I have life insurance?
And their answers are gonna giveyou clues about what sort of
planning they've done.
(24:27):
You could share your ownexperience with meeting with a
financial advisor or an estateplanning attorney.
You know, Hey, I just, my spouseand I, we just updated all of
our estate planning documents.
I want you to know where theyare in case something happens.
By the way.
Where could we find your estateplanning documents if something
happened to you?
And if they don't have them,then you need to encourage them
(24:50):
to get them and explain to themwhy they need them.
So lots of different approachesthat you can take.
Again, you don't want to becondescending.
You don't want them to feelashamed, and so you don't wanna
start by choosing a topic thatmight make them feel
uncomfortable, like talkingabout retirement savings if you
know they have none.
(25:11):
Choose an approach they're mostlikely going to respond to
that's not going to make themfeel uncomfortable.
Maybe it is talking about scamsto get them comfortable talking
about that sort of money matter.
Maybe it's offering tips orshowing them how to download the
app for their grocery stores sothey can get coupons.
I did this recently with anolder relative of mine.
(25:33):
It's a great way to open thedoor to those money
conversations.
David Lowry (25:37):
Cameron, those are
really great ideas.
Do you have any other pieces ofadvice we might talk to our
parents about avoiding some ofthese troubles?
Cameron Huddleston (25:44):
I think it's
a good idea if you can, to
encourage your parents to takesome proactive steps to protect
them against scams and toprotect their finances and
information if they do become avictim.
So encourage your parents tofreeze their credit reports
proactively.
Do not wait until they are avictim of fraud.
(26:06):
It's free and easy to do.
You just go to the website ofall three of the credit bureaus,
Experian, Equifax, andTransUnion, and then look for
the security freeze.
You go in, freeze your creditreports, and that means no one
can open lines of credit in yourname.
You can lift that freeze at anytime if you need to apply for
(26:28):
credit so encourage them to dothat.
Encourage them to sign up forcredit and identity monitoring
so they can get alerts if theirchanges to their credit report
or if their identity is beingmisused.
Encourage them to use accountmonitoring.
They can set up alerts for theirfinancial accounts to be
notified anytime there's atransaction made.
(26:48):
So if there is a fraudulenttransaction, they're gonna know
or they're gonna get that alert,then they can call their bank or
credit card.
They could use a service such asCareful, which provides account
credit and identity monitoring.
They'll get alerts anytime theirunusual transactions spotted,
even money mistakes.
(27:08):
For example, if you forgot topay a pill, you're gonna get an
alert telling you that, Hey, youmight have missed a bill.
So that's a service they coulduse.
Encourage your parents to name afinancial power of attorney if
they haven't done so already'cause this lets them choose
someone they trust to makefinancial decisions for them.
Because if something doeshappen, there's cognitive
(27:31):
decline and they don't have thisdocument, then someone they
might not trust might step upand petition the court to become
their current conservator.
So you want them to put theseprotections in place before
something happens and that'sgonna help limit the damage.
Don Drew (27:47):
So Cameron, what's
next on the horizon for you?
Cameron Huddleston (27:49):
Well, I
would probably say writing a lot
more articles, which is what Itypically do on a daily basis.
I do write articles for Careful,A-A-R-P.
I write for Kiplinger PersonalFinance Magazine.
And that's what I am typicallydoing.
Getting on social media andsharing tips for people on how
(28:10):
to have family money talks, howto protect themselves from
scams, trying to educate peopleon how to be money smart.
Don Drew (28:18):
We wanna thank Cameron
Huddleston for being with us
today.
She's helped us understand thatwhether we're concerned about
our aging parents finances, ortrying to protect ourselves, we
need to pay attention to what'sgoing on out there in the world.
There's a lot of folks that aretrying to take our money, trying
to steal our identity, and soit's very important we pay
attention to this.
Cameron Huddleston, thank youfor being on Peaceful Life
(28:40):
Radio.
Cameron Huddleston (28:40):
Thank you so
much for having me.