November 11, 2025 • 45 mins
We’re at a tipping point. The promise of AI to amplify human judgment and creativity is here—but too many organizations are instead using it as a surveillance tool, and in doing so, they’re sending a message: “We don’t trust you.” Amy Centers walks us through what’s really at stake when leaders outsource tough decisions to algorithms, when productivity becomes presence, when brain‑states and nervous systems are treated as afterthoughts. If you’re leading people right now, this episode is your wake‑up call: you can’t just automate the work—you have to humanize it.
We dig into the trust gap between organizations and workers, the erosion of judgment when AI becomes a crutch, and what a next‑generation model of work looks like when it’s built around energy cycles, meaning and human capacity—not over‑attendance and endless context‑switching.
Related Links:
- Join the People Managing People community forum
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- Check out this episode’s sponsor: Intuit QuickBooks Payroll
- Connect with Amy on LinkedIn
- Check out SmartWorks Lab
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Rice (00:00):
How is that trust gap shaping the way AI or
even basic work practices atthis point are being adopted?
Amy Centers (00:07):
When organizations don't trust their people, and
some of the AI they roll outare things like productivity
tools and surveillance, itjust magnifies the problem.
It requires agency, right?
And it requires time andcreative energy to really
figure out how to useit to build capability.
David Rice (00:28):
So for leaders in particular, what's
really at stake if theystart letting algorithms
make tough calls for them?
Amy Centers (00:33):
We're at real risk for atrophy.
And it's a little bitlike how GPS has eroded
our sense of direction.
Over time, outsourcing judgment,I think is gonna start to erode
on leaders' internal compassand their intuition, and
there's a real danger there.
The more we outsource hardcalls, the more we risk
building leaders who can'tlead without a prompt.
David Rice (00:55):
Instead of using AI to unlock human judgment and
creativity, we're using it topolice how people spend their
time and what their output is.
And it sort of just feels like abig misuse of the medium, right?
Amy Centers (01:06):
We were always needing to have stability
for survival, and our brainsare still wired that way.
There has to be awarenessaround people's nervous
systems, frankly.
We have to startthinking about..
David Rice (01:22):
Welcome to the People Managing People
Podcast — the show wherewe help leaders keep work
human in the era of AI.
My guest today is Amy Centers.
She is an organizationalpsychologist and the
founder of SmartWorks Lab.
We're gonna be talking aboutAI's impact on people in the
workplace and how we're managingwhat we're outsourcing to AI.
Amy, welcome!
Amy Centers (01:43):
Aw.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
Looking forward to theconversation with you, David.
David Rice (01:47):
Yeah.
This is gonna be a good one.
Well, when we were talkingbefore this, we were talking
about how like we're in thisweird sort of moment where
like, organizations don'ttrust their people and people
don't trust the organizations.
How is that trust gap sortof shaping the way AI or
even basic work practices atthis point are being adopted?
Amy Centers (02:07):
Yeah.
Well, I think on the mostfundamental level, not only
is it impacting how people areusing AI, in a lot of ways, it's
impacting what they're using.
And so when organizationsdon't trust their people, and
some of the AI they roll outare things like productivity
tools and surveillance, it justmagnifies the problem, right?
(02:28):
So that's one piece of it.
And the other thing aboutnot trusting their people is.
What I'm seeing a lot areorganizations trying to dictate
how people should use AI.
But I mean, you use it a lot.
I use it a lot.
It requires agency, right?
And it requires time andlike creative energy to
(02:49):
really figure out how touse it to build capability.
And I feel like it's a journeythat you sort of have to.
Go on your own.
So if an organization sort ofdictating that experience or
putting so many guardrails orguidelines in place, like you're
not gonna get the value, right?
You're not gonna get the value.
And then I've been doing alot of research with Gartner
(03:12):
and they keep showing datathat says that productivity
isn't like productivity.
A little bit canbe enhanced by AI.
Organizations far and wideare missing the mark in terms
of how they actually couldbe getting value, and I think
it's because of that lack oftrust and the need to control,
which is what I really thinkis a theme for kind of this
business season right now.
(03:33):
Organizations are trying tocontrol people and it ultimately
doesn't work that well.
David Rice (03:39):
No.
It's, well, I alwaysthink like when leadership
doesn't trust employees.
Something like AI, it'sgonna start to feel like
surveillance, right?
Like that's what they'regonna use it for.
Everything's like aconspiracy to you when you
don't trust leadership.
And then when leadershipdoesn't trust employees,
AI does, like you said,it's all about control.
It becomes another control tool.
It's not like anempowerment layer.
(04:01):
And so instead of using AIto unlock all these things
that we keep saying are thebig promise of it, right?
Human judgment and creativity,we're using it to police,
have people spend their timeand what their output is.
It sort of just feels like abig misuse of the medium, right?
Like AI adoption.
It's not like anormal tech rollout.
It's basically, in some ways itfeels like a referendum on how
(04:24):
much you trust your people toact with autonomy and freedom.
Amy Centers (04:28):
It does, and then we're seeing, it feels like
everything is constrained,right, and that's the
opposite of what AI can be.
I mean, again, I'm goingback to the two of us.
We use it, right?
We know that it can expandcapacity in really powerful
ways, but if you're notgiving people agency
and you're not trusting.
Your fundamental belief systemhas to be that people are
(04:51):
committed and they're passionateand they wanna do a good job.
If you don't have that asa fundamental belief, it's
going to reverberate througheverything you say and do.
And that happens at theorganizational level too,
and it feels like that's themessage that we're getting.
Right.
Especially around.
I get the need for guardrailsand protecting company data
and all that stuff, but Ithink that there's so many now
(05:13):
guardrails and restrictionsin place that people are just
going and doing everything ontheir private ChatGPT-5 anyway.
David Rice (05:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've gotta adapt toa new way of doing things.
And this is always hard, right?
There's alwaysgonna be glitches.
It's gonna feellike a bumpy road.
But it was interesting when wewere speaking before this, you
said to me it's sort of gotsome parallels between today's
work models and sort of likethe 1950s housewife economy.
(05:39):
Right?
But like why do you thinkthat we're still clinging
to outdated structures whenthe rest of society and like
technology and everything hasjust changed so dramatically.
Amy Centers (05:49):
I think it's a different chapter, same book.
I think it's aboutcontrol, right?
I think this return to office,there's a lot of studies
that show that people aremore productive at work,
especially with deep thinking.
I mean, we know people sit inthin walled office environments
and they're trying to docomplex work, and they've got
people popping in and they'regoing to the coffee cart and
(06:11):
they're doing this and that.
I think, and we can talk aboutthis later too, but I think some
of it is gonna come down to.
Where people are in their brainstates if they're creative or if
they're more an automatic pilot.
But I think that these modelsare in place to control people,
and I think that the pendulum.
Rightfully swung too farin one direction post
(06:31):
COVID and employees havea responsibility as well.
You can't do all your Zoom callswith your camera off and not
interact with people and, youknow, with the depth and breadth
of and all of those things, and.
Be taking hours outtayour day to do laundry.
I don't think people do that,but I do think that there has
to be some responsibility bothways, but I think that this is
(06:51):
the pendulum swinging reallyfar in the other direction
and people, you know, we'vetalked about it before.
People are not onlyquiet cracking, they're
loudly cracking.
Not to gender it,but especially women.
You know, we talk aboutthe 996 work week.
Who's doing that?
If you have kids, and Iknow from a capitalistic
perspective, it's like, well,I didn't have your kids.
(07:12):
It's not gonna get meshareholder value, but there's
gotta be some balance, right?
The future, it's gonna betech confused, but if it's not
human, if we can't actuallyoperate in this space.
It's not gonna work.
It's not gonna be sustainable.
David Rice (07:26):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that lack ofcommunal thinking, right?
Like I didn't have your kidslike yeah, but that doesn't
mean anybody should be punishedfor the fact that they did.
You know?
Like that's sort of likea cultural thing and like,
you know, when I think aboutlike how that is, I mean
what I think's interestingabout what we were just
kinda mentioning there islike when you brought up the
1950s like housewife thing.
(07:47):
I've thought of, it'scomforting when you can have
like really defined roles.
So in that case, it's likesomebody's the breadwinner
and then somebody's athome structuring and
creating a household.
Well, like we even wantthat at work, right?
We all want this role thatI understand and that I know
what I'm supposed to do andthat I have clear goals with
my leaders, and my leadersare they're doing this.
(08:08):
So it's all clear roles, butwhat we're finding though is
like a lot of roles are justgetting muddied and everything's
becoming really messy, andthen leaders don't know what
to essentially tell anybody.
And so like that divisionof labor is weird.
Predictable jobs are gone.
And then we still reward thingslike presence over impact
(08:29):
or like we structure hours,like productivity is like the
conveyor belt productivity,but really everything
runs now on adaptability.
Your ability to do contextswitching, the ability to like
absorb insights and apply them,but in a way, the system, the
way it's set up is kind of setup to punish those exact skills.
So it's like, whatdo we do with that?
Amy Centers (08:51):
Yeah.
You know, just takethis back a second.
Just to give any listenerssome additional context.
When I talk about the 1950smodels and having a housewife
is I, when we were talkingpreviously, I was saying, you
know, Jamie Dimon the head ofJP Morgan, I think you know.
David Rice (09:08):
Oh, Jamie Dimon.
Yeah.
Amy Centers (09:09):
Dimon, yeah.
He was in the newsseveral months ago
saying, return to office.
People aren't working.
All these things,and I was saying.
He's probably have never hadto like pick up a sick kid
from school 'cause he is gota wife to do all the stuff.
So this model really worksfor people who have the
1950s housewife, which mostpeople don't have anymore.
It was probably really helpfulto have back in the day, but
(09:32):
we don't have that anymore.
We have everybodytrying to do it all.
And the model is stillbuilt or predicated on this
idea that you can just.
Go to work from nine tonine, six days a week
or whatever, you know?
I mean, and I think the startof that conversation that you
and I were having and thatI was giving an example of
(09:52):
somebody who said we're aboutto do redundancies, and it's
sad to say we're starting tolook at the people who leave
at five or six or whatever, andI said, who are those people?
They're the people that haveto pick up their kids from
school and get dinner and dothe sports and do all the things
that are part of having a life.
And again, all that worksif you've got somebody home
running all this stuff.
(10:13):
But if you're that personand you're trying to do it
all, it's just not working.
And so to your point withagency and creative thinking
and all those things we keeptelling people they're gonna
have to employ to be in thistech infused environment
and still provide value.
How are you doing all the stuff?
David Rice (10:30):
It could even be something as simple as the
person doesn't see that well atnight, and so they just wanna
drive home while it's light.
Like that personshouldn't be punished.
You know what I mean?
Amy Centers (10:40):
And we can get into this now or later, but we have
about what, maybe five hours maxon a good day of our prefrontal
cortex, our deep thinking.
And then we go toautomatic pilot anyway.
So you know what I think ofthe future of work is gonna
be less of that time in frontof a computer with that little
green Microsoft light showingthat you're there, right?
(11:03):
You're there, who knows whatyou're doing, but you're there.
And really about how wecan manage our brains in
ways that are going to.
Maximize the deep thinking,the creative thinking, the
creative problem solving, andthen move to automatic pilot
when our brain does and dothose kinds of activities.
Maybe later in the day whenwe've got that dip or something.
(11:25):
But right now we get to work.
We're going through our emails,we're going to back Zoom calls.
Probably a large percentageof the meetings either could
be an email or we don't needto be in them, and we're
wasting the best part of ourbrain doing all that stuff.
And then again, you know, 11o'clock in the after or in
the morning, or two o'clockin the afternoon, when we
have to work on a project,we find ourselves going for
(11:48):
our fifth cup of coffee andwe can't focus because we
squandered it all, right.
So it's like, it'sa weird thing.
David Rice (11:55):
That's an interesting point that you
bring up there about the wholeprefrontal cortex, like the
way the work is structuredright now, you know, we sort
of burned through it on, likeyou said, all this stuff that
quite frankly, probably isnot high value or, you know,
we're not making the mostof ourselves to sit down and
do some complex thinking.
So, how does brain statemanagement become like sort of
(12:18):
the next frontier of leadership?
Because I think if you tolda lot of leaders that they
gotta understand people'sbrains, the first thing they
think is like, this is notwhat I got into this for.
Amy Centers (12:29):
Totally.
I, and I think we have tomake it simpler for people.
We have to havedifferent language.
I was talking to somebody acouple weeks ago and he is
like, you start talking aboutyour brain at work, people
are gonna just tune out.
Like people don't wannahear about it, but it's
the reality of our biology.
Right.
Just to kind of hark backto something you'd said a
few minutes ago, you weretalking about we're in this
constant state of change andhow people are managing it
(12:52):
and how they can actuallybe productive in this space.
It's really challengingbecause our biology is
for constancy, right?
Think about when we were cavepeople and you were out hunting,
and I guess I was gatheringsomething, I don't know.
But we were always needingto have stability for
survival, and our brainsare still wired that way.
(13:12):
So we are in this spacewhere day to day, moment
to moment, second tosecond, these are in flux.
People are strugglingwith that as well.
And so I think thatthere has to be some
awareness around systems.
There has to be awarenessaround people's nervous
systems, frankly.
And then the brainstate on top of it all.
It's like, I guess the cherryon the Sunday or something,
(13:32):
or probably the whole Sunday.
But my point is,what happens is.
We have to start thinkingabout, or managers especially,
start thinking abouthow to optimize people.
Like that's what's gonnaactually outperform.
So I think when you say,how are you gonna get people
to adapt to that or want tothink about it, I think it's
(13:52):
gonna be showing that peoplewho do have some awareness
will outperform leaders andtheir teams will outperform.
They'll know how to work withthe rhythms, like bursts of
deep focus, built in recovery,meaningful connection.
They're gonna havebetter outcomes.
And what do we know?
Outcomes are pretty muchthe only thing that matters
other than the performativetheater that a lot of people
(14:14):
spend doing during the day.
So there's like both, right?
David Rice (14:17):
Yeah.
No.
Well, it's like we talk aboutproductivity, like it's a
software problem or something.
But like you said, we're runningon fried hardware, a lot of us.
By the time you get done withall that stuff, all the catching
up on emails, the meetings,the context switching, right?
Your best ideas, they're notgonna magically appear at
4 (14:34):
00 PM and then you pick 'em up the next morning.
It doesn't work like that.
And great leaders I think,are gonna be kind of brain
state technicians in a way.
And I know that sounds like.
Maybe overly complicated tosome people, but I think you're
gonna have to curate your team'senvironment like a gardener,
because AIS can allow peopleto do a lot of things fast.
(14:57):
The problem is that it can allowthem to do a lot of things,
and that in and of itself is adanger because they will start
to do all kinds of things.
We're not trained nowto focus on one task.
We all have a million screens.
We're constantly switchingeven when we're not at work.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm watching TV and thenI'm on social media and then I'm
(15:18):
over here, and then I'm helpingmy kid with his video games.
And so we're constantly justsort of like engaging in all
these different brain onlythings throughout the day.
And so like if you wantmaximum productivity outta
your people, I think you'vegotta start thinking about
it like cultivating this.
I mean, I'm calling it likea metaphorical garden, but
like they're brain garden.
(15:39):
You cannot be atask master anymore.
It just doesn't work that way.
You gotta design workflows.
Then just let the deliverables,sort of like your people, if
the workflows are right, thedeliverables will follow.
Obviously there's still somework to be done there, but
like I think that's kindawhere you wanna start.
It's gonna mean protectingthinking time, like you
(15:59):
protect a financial budget.
It's gonna mean recognizingthat like burnout is
just part of the problem.
You know what I mean?
It's system failure, notsomething to be like proud
of and put on your LinkedIn.
Amy Centers (16:12):
Totally.
And it's system failure,and we're calling it
human failure, right?
We get performance reviews.
You know, right now we'reall about optimizing and
commoditizing people.
I think the pendulum willeventually swing, and that's
probably when this brainstate conversation will
start to get some tractionbecause to your point.
People aren't ableto sustain it.
You're just having to workwith biology and the more
(16:36):
we infuse with technology,I think the more this
is gonna come to light.
Right?
David Rice (16:42):
Yeah.
Amy Centers (16:42):
Again, talking about the 996 who's doing
their best work at eight 30at night after being like in
front of a computer from ninein the morning, or probably
even earlier than that.
Like literally no one.
David Rice (16:55):
Most people are barely present at that point.
Amy Centers (16:58):
You know mean, I mean, you weren't barely
present by 11 (16:59):
30 in the morning when they're starting at seven
and they've had their commuteand you know, when you were
talking about task switching.
And I do think that's somethingpeople, and I try to be more
conscious of it too, becauseevery time you do it, it's
like if you think about yourbrain as a battery, you're
losing your battery powerevery time you task switch.
And we do it so quickly,we're glancing at our phone.
(17:22):
Checking an email, we'retalking to somebody who
just walked in the door andour brain needs about 20
seconds between all that.
So there's all this lagtime, which also causes
it to drink faster.
So it's like, you'reright, people and leaders
especially are gonna haveto be cognizant of that.
And I do think though,that another piece of this
is it has to root in whatpeople's fundamental beliefs
(17:44):
are about their people.
And that people can managetheir own brains and their
own energy and their ownthe best of themselves.
And if they can't, if you.
Verifiable truth that youcan't trust your people, then
that's its own issue, right?
You shouldn't haveteams full of people.
I say sometimes one of the mostpowerful things that a former
leader said to me, and I'venot been working there that
(18:06):
long, but I was trying to kindof, you know, CYA something.
She's like, stop.
I totally trust you.
And it was like, ask how wait.
You trust me?
You trust my judgment.
You trust my decision making.
You trust that I'm gonnado the right thing.
Are you kidding?
Okay.
David Rice (18:21):
It's always a big relief.
Amy Centers (18:23):
And then you rise to the occasion.
That doesn't always happen,but it happens more times
than the surveillance cultureand the command and control
and the position authoritythat we're currently trying
to use to motivate people.
And we wonder why, I mean,I would love if there was a
study on like how people wastetheir time at work because it's
gotta be massive chunks of it.
David Rice (18:46):
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(19:26):
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There's a part of me thatthinks the 996 thing is
really just a way to createmore work time so that you
can compensate, so to speak,for the amount of time people
spend on their phone, on, youknow, socializing and whatever.
(19:48):
I would argue that like youjust need some policies in
place around certain types of,you know, activity or like in
terms of the phone and all that.
But also like the socializingis maybe don't think of it as
a waste 'cause it's probablya good thing for your team.
It's good thing for everybody'sbrains involved to make a
little time for connection.
It's okay if they just sitdown and talk for a bit.
(20:10):
There's value in that.
It's gonna help themwork together better.
It's gonna help them workmore efficiently on their own.
And yeah, I think about,you know, like what are
we outsourcing to AI?
One of the things that'shappening right now is we're
outsourcing social time.
We're talking to it.
Why don't we just talk to,you should be outsourcing,
like things that you haveto do for work to it.
(20:31):
Sure.
But the connection, thetalking, the connecting with
people, that's meant to bethe part that you're freed up
to do, or at least in theory.
Amy Centers (20:41):
It's a very dangerous slope to be honest
with you about the connectivitywith AI because generally
speaking, it's nicer thana lot of people we know.
Yeah, that's a more empathetic,it beautifully frames things
for us, so it can, I think,be a little bit like a drug
(21:02):
where we're getting a lot ofvalidation and it makes us
feel good about ourselves tobe interfacing with this LLM.
Not really intelligence,right, but it mimics it.
And so to your point, isthere gonna be, you know, I
always feel like every timethere's this new sort of thing
with humans, we do it reallybadly before we do it better.
And I do think that there'sgonna be more social isolation
(21:25):
and prioritizing AI over humans.
I think we'll go throughall of that, but then we'll
come back, I think, toreally valuing what's human.
Because our brainsactually want that.
You know, we talkedabout this before.
I'm now already craving amessy, individualized LinkedIn
post versus a beautifullypolished bU with all the
(21:47):
end of emojis AI post.
I'm glad.
David Rice (21:49):
But here's the thing.
No, I'm just.
Amy Centers (21:52):
Exactly.
So I think we'll get there,but we probably will have
a bit of messiness aroundthe humanity of it all.
But you know, going back tothat nine to nine, allowing
for people to do things duringthe day, that's, again, taking
agency away from people andit's like creating a symptom
rather than solving the problem.
Right.
David Rice (22:09):
So for leaders in particular though, I'm curious.
When it comes to likeoutsourcing your intuition
to AI a little bit, becausethis is something that I think
we'll be at risk of as moreleaders start to experiment
and find ways to use it.
Like what's really at stake ifthey start letting algorithms
make tough calls for them?
Amy Centers (22:27):
Yeah, I think we're at real risk for
atrophy, and it's a littlebit like how GPS has eroded
our sense of direction.
And so over time, outsourcingjudgment I think is gonna start
to erode on leaders' internalcompass and their intuition.
And there's a real danger therethat, because then organizations
might become technicallyefficient but morally hollow.
(22:49):
So the more we outsourcehard calls, the more we
risk building leaders whocan't lead without a prompt.
So I think that there's a realrisk there that is gonna need
some attention because again,our brains like to shortcut.
They're very efficient.
So some things easier.
Oh, I have to have thisdifficult conversation
(23:10):
with my employee.
Here's what happened.
What should I say?
It's a really easy thing to do.
If you keep doing itover time, I think we're
gonna lose that ability.
David Rice (23:20):
Yeah.
I think the thing thatconcerns me about this is
sort of like the erosionof discernment leaders.
If you start handing overhard calls to AI, you're sort
of stepping out of that zoneof discomfort where quite
frankly, leadership lives.
That's kind of whatthe point of it is.
In a lot of ways, it's notlike intuition isn't like
(23:42):
vibe coding or somethinglike it's pattern recognition
that you've honed throughexperience most of the time.
Right.
And yeah, AI can give youlike patterns to follow,
but it's not gonna be ableto weigh up things like
ethics, context, consequencein like a really human way.
And I just feel like ifwe just let algorithms
take the wheel, you know.
(24:02):
It's like you're avoidingresponsibility in the same way
people who are avoiding work.
You know what I mean?
Like everybody's just doing itnow, but you're also weakening
your own capacity to lead.
And there will be aprice tag at some point.
The chickens always comehome to roost, right, so.
Amy Centers (24:18):
I think that leadership will shift a lot.
And potentially a distinguishingfeature of leaders who do
leadership well will behow they manage for sure.
People's like productivitythrough like brain optimization,
the stuff that we talked about,but also like a little bit
(24:39):
like nervous system regulation.
I mean, have you ever had acall with a leader or a meeting
with a leader and you leaveand go jump on LinkedIn to
see if there's any jobs open.
David Rice (24:50):
Or you immediately start doing the breath
work to steady yourself?
Amy Centers (24:53):
Yeah.
You go into parasympatheticor there's so many things
where leaders can get awaykind of right now with
some really bad behavior.
You know, publicly humiliating,even if they don't mean to
people on their team or theway that their fundamental
belief system shifts,how they lead people.
There's a lot of stuffthat's happening.
Leaders struggle right now.
(25:15):
They're generally not supported.
We know that people getpromoted 'cause they
do really well at theirindividual contributor job.
And then it's like, oh,do that less, but do it
through other people.
Like you don't havenecessarily the tools.
There's a lot of personalityissues and ego, I think
that erode leadership,so it's really messy.
There's a lot of things, butI think in the future where
we are kind of, intelligenceis flattened and language is
(25:36):
flattened and we're seekingindividuality, I think the
leaders who are gonna thriveare one, the ones who have
a distinctive voice and apoint of view that is gonna
separate them from the AIslop that we're gonna see.
Also those leaders thatcreate, and I hate to use
this term 'cause it's sooverused and really out of
fashion, but psychologicalsafety with their people.
(25:58):
Where people feel like theyhave control over their day
and their time, and that theycan do their best work and
that someone believes in them,and that when they do have
problems, that there's trust.
One of the things about trustin work is I think it cannot
be overrated because whattrust does is it shortcuts
relationships, right?
Like if we have trust.
(26:19):
I do or say something that'smessy to you, you're gonna step
over it faster because you know,we have a fundamental trust.
It just shortcuts everything.
When trust erodes, it makeseverything more bureaucratic
and difficult and you don'treally like look through the
lens of positive intent andall kinds of stuff, right?
So I think that ability tocultivate trusted relationships
(26:42):
and partnerships with people.
It's gonna be probably themost important leadership
quality, and that's the hardestone, because it requires
emotional intelligence, notjust in theory, but in the
moment when you're triggered.
But you have to begraceful, right?
Or you're stressed, or you'vegot all this burnout or you're
fatigued, but you have toactually show up really present.
(27:05):
That stuff's gonna be hard,but I think that's gonna be the
future of effective leadership.
David Rice (27:10):
I would agree.
We're seeing people crack undersort of the current models, and
yet as you've said, you know,in this conversation right
here, like we still have peoplepushing this 996 idea, right?
For those who are bad at math,that's a 72 hour work week.
That's to me absurd.
But I'm curious from yourperspective, like what does
(27:30):
the healthy middle ground forproductivity really look like?
Amy Centers (27:34):
Yeah, so I think the middle ground
isn't about hours.
It's about energy cycles, right?
So productivity thrives inorganizations when work is
aligned with human rhythms,kind of all the stuff
that we're talking about.
So again, going back to thatburst of deep focus, built in
recovery, meaningful connection,like all those things are
really gonna optimize work.
(27:54):
I think what we're gonna realizeis we're gonna have to shift
to some biology awarenessor brain state awareness.
That's why I createdmy BQ model, right?
Like knowing kind ofhow we are in the day.
I think we're gonna be forcedto do it because we already
feel like our nervous systemsin general are on edge.
I don't know if I said thisto you when we talked before,
but from 1990 to 2019, anxietyincreased 50% and then went
(28:19):
up another 25 during COVID.
I mean, you talk to anybody.
Now everybody hassome level of anxiety.
It's because we're working insystems that aren't in harmony
with who we are as humansand the pace of technological
changes, this is the slowestpace we're ever gonna encounter.
It's only gonna get faster.
(28:40):
Right.
I've said to you before,we're at the edge of the
shore, there's a tsunami.
It's looking at us.
We can see it hasn't come to,you know, wash over us yet, but
are we gonna go for high ground?
I don't know.
We might get washed away,but my whole point is.
We don't even knowwhere we're gonna be in
two years, five years.
Right.
With the pace of change, theinstability of everything, and
(29:01):
people are having to try to findsome level of constancy so that
they can just exhale and relax.
It's really hard.
Right.
So I think we're gonna kindof be forced to carve out
that awareness in ways thatmaybe we haven't had to
think about in the past.
David Rice (29:17):
Yeah.
And I think to add to that,I'd say like, you've gotta
have purpose built into it.
It's not about grindingless or grinding more
necessarily, but like whatare people grinding for?
What is the point of all this?
A healthy model for productivitybalances, output with
meaning and recovery, right?
(29:37):
So enough cognitive rest,some clear prioritization.
And then I think what we'retalking about to the part of
the theme of this episode isthe freedom to solve problems
with creativity, not just speed.
So all of those things combined,I think we'll see people
not working less, but justworking more in rhythm with
one another, more in rhythmwith what makes sense for them.
(30:00):
And then you can have likemore intense sprints of
productivity followed by somedecompression, not just this
like endless linear pressurethat just never goes away.
I don't think thatis ever productive.
Amy Centers (30:16):
No, and I, you know, I've seen the model work.
Kind of going back to thatleader who said, you know,
that she trusted me outthe gate explicitly, like
implicitly or whatever,it was like full trust.
You know, that was a companywhere sometimes I had to get
up and be in full makeup anddeliver a webinar to hundreds
of people at two in the morningbecause it was a global company.
And I would happily do itbecause there were times
(30:39):
when I needed some downtimeto do X, Y, Z, and I had it
because my leader managedfor results, not time.
Right?
Managed for time.
People will give you it.
Why are they gonna giveyou the best at themselves?
I mean, you know, Gallup'sbeen measuring engagement for
what, I don't know, 50 years.
I think it just keepsdeclining, right?
(31:01):
Does engagement ultimatelyis discretionary effort.
Am I gonna give you theminimum of my day or am I
gonna give you the best of me?
Or a big chunk ofthe best of me.
People only do thatwhen they really love
working for their leader.
They feel like they're trusted.
They're giving agency intheir day and their work,
and they're valued, right?
(31:21):
If that's not clear to anemployee, you're probably
gonna get their timebegrudgingly, but you're not
gonna get the best of 'em.
We know this, but I don't know.
We keep doing thesame, same thing.
David Rice (31:32):
When you brought up the APAC webinars at
four o'clock in the morning,I was triggered 'cause I
do not miss that at all.
Amy Centers (31:39):
You know?
But again, you get the jobdone when you're, when purpose
and meaning and all of thethings that are in alignment.
David Rice (31:47):
I wanna go back to something you said before.
You were talking about how theterm psychological safety is
overused and I want to bring upanother sort of like overused.
Not a term, but maybe inan axiom, so to speak.
Right?
We keep saying the mostsuccessful leaders in
the future, they'llbe the most human.
What does that mean in anage where communication and
(32:09):
ideas are in some ways beingflattened or you know, at
least put through the pressof an AI output, right?
Everybody's evenusing it for emails.
What does it mean tobe human in this era?
Amy Centers (32:24):
Yeah.
Well, I think we have to startby realizing that it can't just
be empathy or vulnerability,because AI is already
mimicking that language, right?
What it can't replicateis embodied presence.
How a, you know, going backto what I had earlier said,
how a leader's nervoussystem regulates the room.
How they noticesubtle cues, right?
(32:47):
How they create truepsychological safety.
So being human isn't about theright words 'cause AI can come
up with much better praising,but it's about how your
nervous system lands on others.
And you know, I used tofacilitate a lot of EQ sessions
and I would say like, and thisis true, the higher you go up,
the bigger the splash, but like.
(33:07):
The metaphor I like is if you'rea ship in the ocean and it's
really wavy and it's a badstorm, if you're not anchored,
you're gonna go whereverthe waves are taking you.
That boat's gonna rockall over the place, right?
And everybody on boardis gonna get seasick.
And that's why I think it'sso important that leaders
center themselves, becausethere's all kinds of incoming
(33:29):
stimuli all day that'sgonna trigger people, right?
But if you can find ways tostay in grace and be centered
and not be at the mercy of allthese external impacts, you
can really show up for peoplein a way that inspires trust.
And I think that's thestuff that is gonna
be really important.
People can get away withsaying really beautiful things.
(33:51):
There's all kinds of leadershipwisdom that's on LinkedIn
and it's all AI generated,but how people are actually
showing up in real life momentto moment, working through
difficult situations withother humans and interfacing
with complex work that'sgonna be the work of a leader.
David Rice (34:08):
Yeah I would agree with that.
And I also say like, it used toalways seem like being a leader
was about having the answers.
I don't think that'sthe case anymore.
Right?
Like we just published recentlyan interview and in it, the
gentleman we interviewed, hewas talking about your ability
to ask better questions.
And I think that is somethingthat's gonna be increasingly
(34:28):
important because it can mimicknowledge, but it doesn't
have a sense of instinct orlike the nuanced understanding
of something, right?
And it doesn't know how toactually lead with empathy.
Like it can give youempathetic phrasing.
Like you said, it can giveyou a nice order of words, but
like it doesn't have a nervoussystem to regulate the room,
(34:48):
so this is part of what you'redoing is like mastering this
so that you can get the resultsthat your team is looking for.
And I think it meansleaning into ambiguity,
being okay with discomfort.
And you know what?
I think it's also gonna bemaking room for some creativity
that's just not that efficient.
Amy Centers (35:06):
Totally.
Which is why it kind ofgoes back to the original
conversation about AI worksreally well if you let people
experiment and be messy andmake mistakes and do different
things and gets it into arhythm of how it actually can
work for them specifically.
Right.
And I think that'strue for work as well.
I think that's one ofthe things, you know.
(35:27):
I saw a post about this morning.
I've been seeing aconversation more and
more start to form around.
The idea of artificialintelligence is such a misnomer,
and it, I think, really can setpeople on the wrong path because
you have to look at the toolas an LLM, you have to look at
it as a large language model.
All it's doing is piecingtogether words that it
(35:49):
thinks people wanna hear.
So when you look at itthrough that lens, I think
you treat it differently.
Right.
And if people are thinkingit's actual intelligence that
it's gonna, I've had, youknow, it generate mistakes
for me in a question that Iasked somebody that didn't
really work for the contextand, you know, shame on me.
(36:11):
Right.
Critical.
Well, the other.
David Rice (36:14):
Well, the thing is like if you're trying
to move fast, it's gonnahappen at some point.
You know what I mean, like.
Amy Centers (36:19):
That, the implications when you look
like an idiot asking a questionfor context or something.
Critical thinking.
We talk a lot about what skillsare people gonna need and we
banter it around so much thatit all becomes buzzwordy, right?
And then we ignore it.
But I really think ability tothink critically is gonna be one
of the most important things.
And unfortunately,I haven't seen great
(36:39):
displays about thus far.
Like if you just go on Facebookand people are putting, like,
I don't own the rights to thismusic, that somehow it dismisses
any kind of copyright law or.
The P were in a baseballcap, so was that good or bad?
Like people aren'teven looking to see if
things are AI generated.
They're just buyingthings wholesale.
So I really think that criticalthinking is struggling.
(37:01):
And it's gonna besomething that's really
important moving forward.
David Rice (37:05):
Well, one of my concerns about nuanced
understanding is I'm like, we'realso getting worse at nuance.
So I'm like, how manyof us are fit to lead?
You know what I mean?
Like that's.
Amy Centers (37:16):
Yeah.
David Rice (37:16):
It is gonna be an issue.
Amy Centers (37:18):
Wow.
We're gonna have to, aspeople dig deep and find some
discipline for ourselves.
You know, when we were talkingabout leader behaviors, one
of the things that's difficultis I think all of us as
humans have a tendency to belike, but I'm not like that.
You talk about EQ and it'slike very few people wake up
(37:38):
every day, get their coffeeand think, I'm gonna go into
work and terrorize people.
It's not their intent,but it happens, right?
It does happen.
And so people tend to dismisstheir own behavior, right?
We filter for our intent.
And other people's visiblebehavior and that gap can
be really problematic interms of how we show up.
(37:59):
Right?
David Rice (37:59):
No, absolutely.
We're gonna wrap up here.
But before we go, I want toask you one last question and
it's, if you were to burn it alldown, what's the first pillar of
work you'd rebuild differently?
Amy Centers (38:10):
I would start with manager accountability.
I think that most dysfunctioncascades from managers.
They're too oftenunsupported, underdeveloped.
They're not held accountablefor how they lead.
If you don't fix that hingelayer, every other reform
like engagement skills, AIadoption, it all collapses.
(38:33):
So if I were to burn itall down, which is my book
title, I started rebuildingthe manager role and 'cause
it's the hinge between likestrategy and human experience.
David Rice (38:44):
Yeah.
Amy Centers (38:44):
They need support, but they, I think
the accountability thingis also really important.
I mean, how many times havewe seen entire teams cycle
out of a company before themanager behavior gets addressed?
David Rice (38:55):
Absolutely.
I was thinking about thisas I was creating that
question, like I was sittingthere, right, typing it into
the email and I thought.
What would I rebuild?
And I think I'd wanna startwith how we define value
because we treat visibilityas value right now.
Like if I see you online,I see you in the office
or in meetings, I assumeyou're contributing.
We know that remoteemployees are having a
(39:16):
different experience fromin-office employees, right?
I think I'd want to try toflip that a little bit and
build a work model that'smore like, depth is visible.
So contribution is measured bythings like clarity, creativity,
obviously impact, but notcalendar Invites are, you know,
things attended essentially.
(39:36):
Because I feel like if weget the foundation right,
all the rest of it has a muchbetter chance of aligning,
but it's gotta be about.
Finally moving away.
I mean, we, I just sawanother big return to
office announcement and I'mthinking to myself, and this
is a company that's heavilysaying that it's using AI.
AI is inherently, youdon't need to be together.
Like, what are you doing?
(39:58):
Like, it's like get everybodytogether so that they can sit in
cubicles and talk to this thing.
Like, it doesn't make any sense.
So I just feel like, yeah, we'vejust gotta redefine value a
little bit differently, I just.
Amy Centers (40:12):
I love that.
I think that's thecrux of it all, right?
So many thingsrevolve around that.
Even a leader has a stereotypeof what kind of style they have.
Like we've gotta look deeperto your point, which I think
might take a while, but Ithink we'll get there and
I think we'll be forcedto, you know, to get there.
Because again,this isn't working.
(40:32):
This 1950s industrial facetime, nine to five, to seven
to nine, six days a week,it's not sustainable and it's
the most important thing.
It's not gettingthe best of people.
That's it, right?
It's not gettingthe best of people.
It's getting people who areover caffeinated, unders,
(40:53):
slept undernourished, checkingtheir phone every five seconds
because they're so distracted.
There's so many things thatare creating productivity
impacts that have nothingto do with where you're
actually doing your work.
David Rice (41:08):
And I was thinking about like for everybody
that's working in the 996thing and some people are
like, yeah, you know, we'regetting all this done.
First thing I think is, A,it's not sustainable and b, I
wouldn't hold it up or boastabout it because if you think
that 996 is gonna get tough.
Wait till they want 797,you know what I mean?
(41:29):
Like wait till they want sevenday work weeks or whatever.
Like you've got to startdrawing lines and forcing the
fact that like the promiseof this was for us to do
more with less, and that lesswasn't just less people, it
was less time consumption.
On all these kind ofmid-level things, right?
Like value things toget us on high value.
(41:50):
That's where we need tostill be concentrating.
It can't just be, we'vealways focused on so far is
efficiency and productivity.
There has to be more promiseto enza that, or if this is
just gonna be like anothertool and eventually it's
gonna not have as much value.
Because everybody'sgonna find it.
Amy Centers (42:06):
Yeah, and I mean, I think that's kind of
the season that we're in, onecontrol, but two, this weird
use of AI that actually isn'thaving that much of an impact.
I mean, if I can summarize ameeting and say five minutes
and maybe do that threetimes and say 15 minutes,
and I use that 15 minutesto go walk to the coffee
cart with a friend of mine.
(42:26):
Right.
It's like we're not askingthe right questions and we're
not really, I think thatit feels so much of work.
I know I've said this toyou before, but so much
of what bothers me aboutour 1950s work models is.
There's so muchperformative, right?
It's all performativetheater, and I feel like
that's what a lot ofcompanies are doing with AI.
(42:48):
They wanna say they'reusing it, they've gotta
kind of report it out.
They've gotta seem likethey're on point in putting
AI out there, but it'snot actually being used
in any meaningful ways.
So.
Your inputs affectyour outputs, right?
So they're gonna getwhat they are giving.
David Rice (43:05):
We're gonna get there.
Amy Centers (43:05):
Eventually.
It'll get there.
It'll be interesting to see.
It's a really fun time.
It's a super exciting time,and I do think that there's
some energy around, Hey, canwe modernize how we work?
Can we do this differently?
I hear conversationsstarting to.
Form in that direction.
And I think that's reallyexciting because it can
(43:26):
impact people and workand outcomes and value in
really significant ways.
So I love that we're eventalking about this right now.
You know, I think that partof the first step is like
just bringing these kind ofissues to the surface, and.
David Rice (43:41):
I think a lot of folks are maybe don't think
that they have the answersor they're uncomfortable
talking about it, but like forleaders, I think that this is.
This kind of stuff is,the stuff that's gonna be
long term is what's gonnabe on your plate, right?
Today it's AItransformation, but as you.
Figure that out.
The next piece is gonnabe what's the impact
of this on your people?
And like, what doyou have them doing?
(44:02):
How are you extracting themost value that you can out of
those people that you've got?
So yeah, I think this isgonna be a very interesting
next couple of years withall this on our plate and
seeing what develops as thetechnology's changing so fast.
Amy Centers (44:15):
Yeah.
Well, we'll get togetherperiodically and kind of,
you know, talk about it.
David Rice (44:20):
Absolutely.
Well, thank you forcoming on today.
I really appreciate it.
If you're looking toconnect with Amy, you
can find her on LinkedIn.
Until next time, get signedup for the newsletter
if you haven't already.
Just gonna say, Hey, stay human.
Figure out what it means to behuman in your role right now.
How is that trust gap shaping the way AI or
even basic work practices atthis point are being adopted?
Amy Centers (00:07):
When organizations don't trust their people, and
some of the AI they roll outare things like productivity
tools and surveillance, itjust magnifies the problem.
It requires agency, right?
And it requires time andcreative energy to really
figure out how to useit to build capability.
David Rice (00:28):
So for leaders in particular, what's
really at stake if theystart letting algorithms
make tough calls for them?
Amy Centers (00:33):
We're at real risk for atrophy.
And it's a little bitlike how GPS has eroded
our sense of direction.
Over time, outsourcing judgment,I think is gonna start to erode
on leaders' internal compassand their intuition, and
there's a real danger there.
The more we outsource hardcalls, the more we risk
building leaders who can'tlead without a prompt.
David Rice (00:55):
Instead of using AI to unlock human judgment and
creativity, we're using it topolice how people spend their
time and what their output is.
And it sort of just feels like abig misuse of the medium, right?
Amy Centers (01:06):
We were always needing to have stability
for survival, and our brainsare still wired that way.
There has to be awarenessaround people's nervous
systems, frankly.
We have to startthinking about..
David Rice (01:22):
Welcome to the People Managing People
Podcast — the show wherewe help leaders keep work
human in the era of AI.
My guest today is Amy Centers.
She is an organizationalpsychologist and the
founder of SmartWorks Lab.
We're gonna be talking aboutAI's impact on people in the
workplace and how we're managingwhat we're outsourcing to AI.
Amy, welcome!
Amy Centers (01:43):
Aw.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
Looking forward to theconversation with you, David.
David Rice (01:47):
Yeah.
This is gonna be a good one.
Well, when we were talkingbefore this, we were talking
about how like we're in thisweird sort of moment where
like, organizations don'ttrust their people and people
don't trust the organizations.
How is that trust gap sortof shaping the way AI or
even basic work practices atthis point are being adopted?
Amy Centers (02:07):
Yeah.
Well, I think on the mostfundamental level, not only
is it impacting how people areusing AI, in a lot of ways, it's
impacting what they're using.
And so when organizationsdon't trust their people, and
some of the AI they roll outare things like productivity
tools and surveillance, it justmagnifies the problem, right?
(02:28):
So that's one piece of it.
And the other thing aboutnot trusting their people is.
What I'm seeing a lot areorganizations trying to dictate
how people should use AI.
But I mean, you use it a lot.
I use it a lot.
It requires agency, right?
And it requires time andlike creative energy to
(02:49):
really figure out how touse it to build capability.
And I feel like it's a journeythat you sort of have to.
Go on your own.
So if an organization sort ofdictating that experience or
putting so many guardrails orguidelines in place, like you're
not gonna get the value, right?
You're not gonna get the value.
And then I've been doing alot of research with Gartner
(03:12):
and they keep showing datathat says that productivity
isn't like productivity.
A little bit canbe enhanced by AI.
Organizations far and wideare missing the mark in terms
of how they actually couldbe getting value, and I think
it's because of that lack oftrust and the need to control,
which is what I really thinkis a theme for kind of this
business season right now.
(03:33):
Organizations are trying tocontrol people and it ultimately
doesn't work that well.
David Rice (03:39):
No.
It's, well, I alwaysthink like when leadership
doesn't trust employees.
Something like AI, it'sgonna start to feel like
surveillance, right?
Like that's what they'regonna use it for.
Everything's like aconspiracy to you when you
don't trust leadership.
And then when leadershipdoesn't trust employees,
AI does, like you said,it's all about control.
It becomes another control tool.
It's not like anempowerment layer.
(04:01):
And so instead of using AIto unlock all these things
that we keep saying are thebig promise of it, right?
Human judgment and creativity,we're using it to police,
have people spend their timeand what their output is.
It sort of just feels like abig misuse of the medium, right?
Like AI adoption.
It's not like anormal tech rollout.
It's basically, in some ways itfeels like a referendum on how
(04:24):
much you trust your people toact with autonomy and freedom.
Amy Centers (04:28):
It does, and then we're seeing, it feels like
everything is constrained,right, and that's the
opposite of what AI can be.
I mean, again, I'm goingback to the two of us.
We use it, right?
We know that it can expandcapacity in really powerful
ways, but if you're notgiving people agency
and you're not trusting.
Your fundamental belief systemhas to be that people are
(04:51):
committed and they're passionateand they wanna do a good job.
If you don't have that asa fundamental belief, it's
going to reverberate througheverything you say and do.
And that happens at theorganizational level too,
and it feels like that's themessage that we're getting.
Right.
Especially around.
I get the need for guardrailsand protecting company data
and all that stuff, but Ithink that there's so many now
(05:13):
guardrails and restrictionsin place that people are just
going and doing everything ontheir private ChatGPT-5 anyway.
David Rice (05:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've gotta adapt toa new way of doing things.
And this is always hard, right?
There's alwaysgonna be glitches.
It's gonna feellike a bumpy road.
But it was interesting when wewere speaking before this, you
said to me it's sort of gotsome parallels between today's
work models and sort of likethe 1950s housewife economy.
(05:39):
Right?
But like why do you thinkthat we're still clinging
to outdated structures whenthe rest of society and like
technology and everything hasjust changed so dramatically.
Amy Centers (05:49):
I think it's a different chapter, same book.
I think it's aboutcontrol, right?
I think this return to office,there's a lot of studies
that show that people aremore productive at work,
especially with deep thinking.
I mean, we know people sit inthin walled office environments
and they're trying to docomplex work, and they've got
people popping in and they'regoing to the coffee cart and
(06:11):
they're doing this and that.
I think, and we can talk aboutthis later too, but I think some
of it is gonna come down to.
Where people are in their brainstates if they're creative or if
they're more an automatic pilot.
But I think that these modelsare in place to control people,
and I think that the pendulum.
Rightfully swung too farin one direction post
(06:31):
COVID and employees havea responsibility as well.
You can't do all your Zoom callswith your camera off and not
interact with people and, youknow, with the depth and breadth
of and all of those things, and.
Be taking hours outtayour day to do laundry.
I don't think people do that,but I do think that there has
to be some responsibility bothways, but I think that this is
(06:51):
the pendulum swinging reallyfar in the other direction
and people, you know, we'vetalked about it before.
People are not onlyquiet cracking, they're
loudly cracking.
Not to gender it,but especially women.
You know, we talk aboutthe 996 work week.
Who's doing that?
If you have kids, and Iknow from a capitalistic
perspective, it's like, well,I didn't have your kids.
(07:12):
It's not gonna get meshareholder value, but there's
gotta be some balance, right?
The future, it's gonna betech confused, but if it's not
human, if we can't actuallyoperate in this space.
It's not gonna work.
It's not gonna be sustainable.
David Rice (07:26):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that lack ofcommunal thinking, right?
Like I didn't have your kidslike yeah, but that doesn't
mean anybody should be punishedfor the fact that they did.
You know?
Like that's sort of likea cultural thing and like,
you know, when I think aboutlike how that is, I mean
what I think's interestingabout what we were just
kinda mentioning there islike when you brought up the
1950s like housewife thing.
(07:47):
I've thought of, it'scomforting when you can have
like really defined roles.
So in that case, it's likesomebody's the breadwinner
and then somebody's athome structuring and
creating a household.
Well, like we even wantthat at work, right?
We all want this role thatI understand and that I know
what I'm supposed to do andthat I have clear goals with
my leaders, and my leadersare they're doing this.
(08:08):
So it's all clear roles, butwhat we're finding though is
like a lot of roles are justgetting muddied and everything's
becoming really messy, andthen leaders don't know what
to essentially tell anybody.
And so like that divisionof labor is weird.
Predictable jobs are gone.
And then we still reward thingslike presence over impact
(08:29):
or like we structure hours,like productivity is like the
conveyor belt productivity,but really everything
runs now on adaptability.
Your ability to do contextswitching, the ability to like
absorb insights and apply them,but in a way, the system, the
way it's set up is kind of setup to punish those exact skills.
So it's like, whatdo we do with that?
Amy Centers (08:51):
Yeah.
You know, just takethis back a second.
Just to give any listenerssome additional context.
When I talk about the 1950smodels and having a housewife
is I, when we were talkingpreviously, I was saying, you
know, Jamie Dimon the head ofJP Morgan, I think you know.
David Rice (09:08):
Oh, Jamie Dimon.
Yeah.
Amy Centers (09:09):
Dimon, yeah.
He was in the newsseveral months ago
saying, return to office.
People aren't working.
All these things,and I was saying.
He's probably have never hadto like pick up a sick kid
from school 'cause he is gota wife to do all the stuff.
So this model really worksfor people who have the
1950s housewife, which mostpeople don't have anymore.
It was probably really helpfulto have back in the day, but
(09:32):
we don't have that anymore.
We have everybodytrying to do it all.
And the model is stillbuilt or predicated on this
idea that you can just.
Go to work from nine tonine, six days a week
or whatever, you know?
I mean, and I think the startof that conversation that you
and I were having and thatI was giving an example of
(09:52):
somebody who said we're aboutto do redundancies, and it's
sad to say we're starting tolook at the people who leave
at five or six or whatever, andI said, who are those people?
They're the people that haveto pick up their kids from
school and get dinner and dothe sports and do all the things
that are part of having a life.
And again, all that worksif you've got somebody home
running all this stuff.
(10:13):
But if you're that personand you're trying to do it
all, it's just not working.
And so to your point withagency and creative thinking
and all those things we keeptelling people they're gonna
have to employ to be in thistech infused environment
and still provide value.
How are you doing all the stuff?
David Rice (10:30):
It could even be something as simple as the
person doesn't see that well atnight, and so they just wanna
drive home while it's light.
Like that personshouldn't be punished.
You know what I mean?
Amy Centers (10:40):
And we can get into this now or later, but we have
about what, maybe five hours maxon a good day of our prefrontal
cortex, our deep thinking.
And then we go toautomatic pilot anyway.
So you know what I think ofthe future of work is gonna
be less of that time in frontof a computer with that little
green Microsoft light showingthat you're there, right?
(11:03):
You're there, who knows whatyou're doing, but you're there.
And really about how wecan manage our brains in
ways that are going to.
Maximize the deep thinking,the creative thinking, the
creative problem solving, andthen move to automatic pilot
when our brain does and dothose kinds of activities.
Maybe later in the day whenwe've got that dip or something.
(11:25):
But right now we get to work.
We're going through our emails,we're going to back Zoom calls.
Probably a large percentageof the meetings either could
be an email or we don't needto be in them, and we're
wasting the best part of ourbrain doing all that stuff.
And then again, you know, 11o'clock in the after or in
the morning, or two o'clockin the afternoon, when we
have to work on a project,we find ourselves going for
(11:48):
our fifth cup of coffee andwe can't focus because we
squandered it all, right.
So it's like, it'sa weird thing.
David Rice (11:55):
That's an interesting point that you
bring up there about the wholeprefrontal cortex, like the
way the work is structuredright now, you know, we sort
of burned through it on, likeyou said, all this stuff that
quite frankly, probably isnot high value or, you know,
we're not making the mostof ourselves to sit down and
do some complex thinking.
So, how does brain statemanagement become like sort of
(12:18):
the next frontier of leadership?
Because I think if you tolda lot of leaders that they
gotta understand people'sbrains, the first thing they
think is like, this is notwhat I got into this for.
Amy Centers (12:29):
Totally.
I, and I think we have tomake it simpler for people.
We have to havedifferent language.
I was talking to somebody acouple weeks ago and he is
like, you start talking aboutyour brain at work, people
are gonna just tune out.
Like people don't wannahear about it, but it's
the reality of our biology.
Right.
Just to kind of hark backto something you'd said a
few minutes ago, you weretalking about we're in this
constant state of change andhow people are managing it
(12:52):
and how they can actuallybe productive in this space.
It's really challengingbecause our biology is
for constancy, right?
Think about when we were cavepeople and you were out hunting,
and I guess I was gatheringsomething, I don't know.
But we were always needingto have stability for
survival, and our brainsare still wired that way.
(13:12):
So we are in this spacewhere day to day, moment
to moment, second tosecond, these are in flux.
People are strugglingwith that as well.
And so I think thatthere has to be some
awareness around systems.
There has to be awarenessaround people's nervous
systems, frankly.
And then the brainstate on top of it all.
It's like, I guess the cherryon the Sunday or something,
(13:32):
or probably the whole Sunday.
But my point is,what happens is.
We have to start thinkingabout, or managers especially,
start thinking abouthow to optimize people.
Like that's what's gonnaactually outperform.
So I think when you say,how are you gonna get people
to adapt to that or want tothink about it, I think it's
(13:52):
gonna be showing that peoplewho do have some awareness
will outperform leaders andtheir teams will outperform.
They'll know how to work withthe rhythms, like bursts of
deep focus, built in recovery,meaningful connection.
They're gonna havebetter outcomes.
And what do we know?
Outcomes are pretty muchthe only thing that matters
other than the performativetheater that a lot of people
(14:14):
spend doing during the day.
So there's like both, right?
David Rice (14:17):
Yeah.
No.
Well, it's like we talk aboutproductivity, like it's a
software problem or something.
But like you said, we're runningon fried hardware, a lot of us.
By the time you get done withall that stuff, all the catching
up on emails, the meetings,the context switching, right?
Your best ideas, they're notgonna magically appear at
4 (14:34):
00 PM and then you pick 'em up the next morning.
It doesn't work like that.
And great leaders I think,are gonna be kind of brain
state technicians in a way.
And I know that sounds like.
Maybe overly complicated tosome people, but I think you're
gonna have to curate your team'senvironment like a gardener,
because AIS can allow peopleto do a lot of things fast.
(14:57):
The problem is that it can allowthem to do a lot of things,
and that in and of itself is adanger because they will start
to do all kinds of things.
We're not trained nowto focus on one task.
We all have a million screens.
We're constantly switchingeven when we're not at work.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm watching TV and thenI'm on social media and then I'm
(15:18):
over here, and then I'm helpingmy kid with his video games.
And so we're constantly justsort of like engaging in all
these different brain onlythings throughout the day.
And so like if you wantmaximum productivity outta
your people, I think you'vegotta start thinking about
it like cultivating this.
I mean, I'm calling it likea metaphorical garden, but
like they're brain garden.
(15:39):
You cannot be atask master anymore.
It just doesn't work that way.
You gotta design workflows.
Then just let the deliverables,sort of like your people, if
the workflows are right, thedeliverables will follow.
Obviously there's still somework to be done there, but
like I think that's kindawhere you wanna start.
It's gonna mean protectingthinking time, like you
(15:59):
protect a financial budget.
It's gonna mean recognizingthat like burnout is
just part of the problem.
You know what I mean?
It's system failure, notsomething to be like proud
of and put on your LinkedIn.
Amy Centers (16:12):
Totally.
And it's system failure,and we're calling it
human failure, right?
We get performance reviews.
You know, right now we'reall about optimizing and
commoditizing people.
I think the pendulum willeventually swing, and that's
probably when this brainstate conversation will
start to get some tractionbecause to your point.
People aren't ableto sustain it.
You're just having to workwith biology and the more
(16:36):
we infuse with technology,I think the more this
is gonna come to light.
Right?
David Rice (16:42):
Yeah.
Amy Centers (16:42):
Again, talking about the 996 who's doing
their best work at eight 30at night after being like in
front of a computer from ninein the morning, or probably
even earlier than that.
Like literally no one.
David Rice (16:55):
Most people are barely present at that point.
Amy Centers (16:58):
You know mean, I mean, you weren't barely
present by 11 (16:59):
30 in the morning when they're starting at seven
and they've had their commuteand you know, when you were
talking about task switching.
And I do think that's somethingpeople, and I try to be more
conscious of it too, becauseevery time you do it, it's
like if you think about yourbrain as a battery, you're
losing your battery powerevery time you task switch.
And we do it so quickly,we're glancing at our phone.
(17:22):
Checking an email, we'retalking to somebody who
just walked in the door andour brain needs about 20
seconds between all that.
So there's all this lagtime, which also causes
it to drink faster.
So it's like, you'reright, people and leaders
especially are gonna haveto be cognizant of that.
And I do think though,that another piece of this
is it has to root in whatpeople's fundamental beliefs
(17:44):
are about their people.
And that people can managetheir own brains and their
own energy and their ownthe best of themselves.
And if they can't, if you.
Verifiable truth that youcan't trust your people, then
that's its own issue, right?
You shouldn't haveteams full of people.
I say sometimes one of the mostpowerful things that a former
leader said to me, and I'venot been working there that
(18:06):
long, but I was trying to kindof, you know, CYA something.
She's like, stop.
I totally trust you.
And it was like, ask how wait.
You trust me?
You trust my judgment.
You trust my decision making.
You trust that I'm gonnado the right thing.
Are you kidding?
Okay.
David Rice (18:21):
It's always a big relief.
Amy Centers (18:23):
And then you rise to the occasion.
That doesn't always happen,but it happens more times
than the surveillance cultureand the command and control
and the position authoritythat we're currently trying
to use to motivate people.
And we wonder why, I mean,I would love if there was a
study on like how people wastetheir time at work because it's
gotta be massive chunks of it.
David Rice (18:46):
Managing people means managing
complexity, payroll,time tracking, finances.
And when your tools don'ttalk to each other, that
complexity multiplies.
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This isn't just for accounting.
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It brings everything together.
Payroll, time tracking,HR, and accounting.
(19:06):
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(19:26):
That's quickbooks.com/payroll.
There's a part of me thatthinks the 996 thing is
really just a way to createmore work time so that you
can compensate, so to speak,for the amount of time people
spend on their phone, on, youknow, socializing and whatever.
(19:48):
I would argue that like youjust need some policies in
place around certain types of,you know, activity or like in
terms of the phone and all that.
But also like the socializingis maybe don't think of it as
a waste 'cause it's probablya good thing for your team.
It's good thing for everybody'sbrains involved to make a
little time for connection.
It's okay if they just sitdown and talk for a bit.
(20:10):
There's value in that.
It's gonna help themwork together better.
It's gonna help them workmore efficiently on their own.
And yeah, I think about,you know, like what are
we outsourcing to AI?
One of the things that'shappening right now is we're
outsourcing social time.
We're talking to it.
Why don't we just talk to,you should be outsourcing,
like things that you haveto do for work to it.
(20:31):
Sure.
But the connection, thetalking, the connecting with
people, that's meant to bethe part that you're freed up
to do, or at least in theory.
Amy Centers (20:41):
It's a very dangerous slope to be honest
with you about the connectivitywith AI because generally
speaking, it's nicer thana lot of people we know.
Yeah, that's a more empathetic,it beautifully frames things
for us, so it can, I think,be a little bit like a drug
(21:02):
where we're getting a lot ofvalidation and it makes us
feel good about ourselves tobe interfacing with this LLM.
Not really intelligence,right, but it mimics it.
And so to your point, isthere gonna be, you know, I
always feel like every timethere's this new sort of thing
with humans, we do it reallybadly before we do it better.
And I do think that there'sgonna be more social isolation
(21:25):
and prioritizing AI over humans.
I think we'll go throughall of that, but then we'll
come back, I think, toreally valuing what's human.
Because our brainsactually want that.
You know, we talkedabout this before.
I'm now already craving amessy, individualized LinkedIn
post versus a beautifullypolished bU with all the
(21:47):
end of emojis AI post.
I'm glad.
David Rice (21:49):
But here's the thing.
No, I'm just.
Amy Centers (21:52):
Exactly.
So I think we'll get there,but we probably will have
a bit of messiness aroundthe humanity of it all.
But you know, going back tothat nine to nine, allowing
for people to do things duringthe day, that's, again, taking
agency away from people andit's like creating a symptom
rather than solving the problem.
Right.
David Rice (22:09):
So for leaders in particular though, I'm curious.
When it comes to likeoutsourcing your intuition
to AI a little bit, becausethis is something that I think
we'll be at risk of as moreleaders start to experiment
and find ways to use it.
Like what's really at stake ifthey start letting algorithms
make tough calls for them?
Amy Centers (22:27):
Yeah, I think we're at real risk for
atrophy, and it's a littlebit like how GPS has eroded
our sense of direction.
And so over time, outsourcingjudgment I think is gonna start
to erode on leaders' internalcompass and their intuition.
And there's a real danger therethat, because then organizations
might become technicallyefficient but morally hollow.
(22:49):
So the more we outsourcehard calls, the more we
risk building leaders whocan't lead without a prompt.
So I think that there's a realrisk there that is gonna need
some attention because again,our brains like to shortcut.
They're very efficient.
So some things easier.
Oh, I have to have thisdifficult conversation
(23:10):
with my employee.
Here's what happened.
What should I say?
It's a really easy thing to do.
If you keep doing itover time, I think we're
gonna lose that ability.
David Rice (23:20):
Yeah.
I think the thing thatconcerns me about this is
sort of like the erosionof discernment leaders.
If you start handing overhard calls to AI, you're sort
of stepping out of that zoneof discomfort where quite
frankly, leadership lives.
That's kind of whatthe point of it is.
In a lot of ways, it's notlike intuition isn't like
(23:42):
vibe coding or somethinglike it's pattern recognition
that you've honed throughexperience most of the time.
Right.
And yeah, AI can give youlike patterns to follow,
but it's not gonna be ableto weigh up things like
ethics, context, consequencein like a really human way.
And I just feel like ifwe just let algorithms
take the wheel, you know.
(24:02):
It's like you're avoidingresponsibility in the same way
people who are avoiding work.
You know what I mean?
Like everybody's just doing itnow, but you're also weakening
your own capacity to lead.
And there will be aprice tag at some point.
The chickens always comehome to roost, right, so.
Amy Centers (24:18):
I think that leadership will shift a lot.
And potentially a distinguishingfeature of leaders who do
leadership well will behow they manage for sure.
People's like productivitythrough like brain optimization,
the stuff that we talked about,but also like a little bit
(24:39):
like nervous system regulation.
I mean, have you ever had acall with a leader or a meeting
with a leader and you leaveand go jump on LinkedIn to
see if there's any jobs open.
David Rice (24:50):
Or you immediately start doing the breath
work to steady yourself?
Amy Centers (24:53):
Yeah.
You go into parasympatheticor there's so many things
where leaders can get awaykind of right now with
some really bad behavior.
You know, publicly humiliating,even if they don't mean to
people on their team or theway that their fundamental
belief system shifts,how they lead people.
There's a lot of stuffthat's happening.
Leaders struggle right now.
(25:15):
They're generally not supported.
We know that people getpromoted 'cause they
do really well at theirindividual contributor job.
And then it's like, oh,do that less, but do it
through other people.
Like you don't havenecessarily the tools.
There's a lot of personalityissues and ego, I think
that erode leadership,so it's really messy.
There's a lot of things, butI think in the future where
we are kind of, intelligenceis flattened and language is
(25:36):
flattened and we're seekingindividuality, I think the
leaders who are gonna thriveare one, the ones who have
a distinctive voice and apoint of view that is gonna
separate them from the AIslop that we're gonna see.
Also those leaders thatcreate, and I hate to use
this term 'cause it's sooverused and really out of
fashion, but psychologicalsafety with their people.
(25:58):
Where people feel like theyhave control over their day
and their time, and that theycan do their best work and
that someone believes in them,and that when they do have
problems, that there's trust.
One of the things about trustin work is I think it cannot
be overrated because whattrust does is it shortcuts
relationships, right?
Like if we have trust.
(26:19):
I do or say something that'smessy to you, you're gonna step
over it faster because you know,we have a fundamental trust.
It just shortcuts everything.
When trust erodes, it makeseverything more bureaucratic
and difficult and you don'treally like look through the
lens of positive intent andall kinds of stuff, right?
So I think that ability tocultivate trusted relationships
(26:42):
and partnerships with people.
It's gonna be probably themost important leadership
quality, and that's the hardestone, because it requires
emotional intelligence, notjust in theory, but in the
moment when you're triggered.
But you have to begraceful, right?
Or you're stressed, or you'vegot all this burnout or you're
fatigued, but you have toactually show up really present.
(27:05):
That stuff's gonna be hard,but I think that's gonna be the
future of effective leadership.
David Rice (27:10):
I would agree.
We're seeing people crack undersort of the current models, and
yet as you've said, you know,in this conversation right
here, like we still have peoplepushing this 996 idea, right?
For those who are bad at math,that's a 72 hour work week.
That's to me absurd.
But I'm curious from yourperspective, like what does
(27:30):
the healthy middle ground forproductivity really look like?
Amy Centers (27:34):
Yeah, so I think the middle ground
isn't about hours.
It's about energy cycles, right?
So productivity thrives inorganizations when work is
aligned with human rhythms,kind of all the stuff
that we're talking about.
So again, going back to thatburst of deep focus, built in
recovery, meaningful connection,like all those things are
really gonna optimize work.
(27:54):
I think what we're gonna realizeis we're gonna have to shift
to some biology awarenessor brain state awareness.
That's why I createdmy BQ model, right?
Like knowing kind ofhow we are in the day.
I think we're gonna be forcedto do it because we already
feel like our nervous systemsin general are on edge.
I don't know if I said thisto you when we talked before,
but from 1990 to 2019, anxietyincreased 50% and then went
(28:19):
up another 25 during COVID.
I mean, you talk to anybody.
Now everybody hassome level of anxiety.
It's because we're working insystems that aren't in harmony
with who we are as humansand the pace of technological
changes, this is the slowestpace we're ever gonna encounter.
It's only gonna get faster.
(28:40):
Right.
I've said to you before,we're at the edge of the
shore, there's a tsunami.
It's looking at us.
We can see it hasn't come to,you know, wash over us yet, but
are we gonna go for high ground?
I don't know.
We might get washed away,but my whole point is.
We don't even knowwhere we're gonna be in
two years, five years.
Right.
With the pace of change, theinstability of everything, and
(29:01):
people are having to try to findsome level of constancy so that
they can just exhale and relax.
It's really hard.
Right.
So I think we're gonna kindof be forced to carve out
that awareness in ways thatmaybe we haven't had to
think about in the past.
David Rice (29:17):
Yeah.
And I think to add to that,I'd say like, you've gotta
have purpose built into it.
It's not about grindingless or grinding more
necessarily, but like whatare people grinding for?
What is the point of all this?
A healthy model for productivitybalances, output with
meaning and recovery, right?
(29:37):
So enough cognitive rest,some clear prioritization.
And then I think what we'retalking about to the part of
the theme of this episode isthe freedom to solve problems
with creativity, not just speed.
So all of those things combined,I think we'll see people
not working less, but justworking more in rhythm with
one another, more in rhythmwith what makes sense for them.
(30:00):
And then you can have likemore intense sprints of
productivity followed by somedecompression, not just this
like endless linear pressurethat just never goes away.
I don't think thatis ever productive.
Amy Centers (30:16):
No, and I, you know, I've seen the model work.
Kind of going back to thatleader who said, you know,
that she trusted me outthe gate explicitly, like
implicitly or whatever,it was like full trust.
You know, that was a companywhere sometimes I had to get
up and be in full makeup anddeliver a webinar to hundreds
of people at two in the morningbecause it was a global company.
And I would happily do itbecause there were times
(30:39):
when I needed some downtimeto do X, Y, Z, and I had it
because my leader managedfor results, not time.
Right?
Managed for time.
People will give you it.
Why are they gonna giveyou the best at themselves?
I mean, you know, Gallup'sbeen measuring engagement for
what, I don't know, 50 years.
I think it just keepsdeclining, right?
(31:01):
Does engagement ultimatelyis discretionary effort.
Am I gonna give you theminimum of my day or am I
gonna give you the best of me?
Or a big chunk ofthe best of me.
People only do thatwhen they really love
working for their leader.
They feel like they're trusted.
They're giving agency intheir day and their work,
and they're valued, right?
(31:21):
If that's not clear to anemployee, you're probably
gonna get their timebegrudgingly, but you're not
gonna get the best of 'em.
We know this, but I don't know.
We keep doing thesame, same thing.
David Rice (31:32):
When you brought up the APAC webinars at
four o'clock in the morning,I was triggered 'cause I
do not miss that at all.
Amy Centers (31:39):
You know?
But again, you get the jobdone when you're, when purpose
and meaning and all of thethings that are in alignment.
David Rice (31:47):
I wanna go back to something you said before.
You were talking about how theterm psychological safety is
overused and I want to bring upanother sort of like overused.
Not a term, but maybe inan axiom, so to speak.
Right?
We keep saying the mostsuccessful leaders in
the future, they'llbe the most human.
What does that mean in anage where communication and
(32:09):
ideas are in some ways beingflattened or you know, at
least put through the pressof an AI output, right?
Everybody's evenusing it for emails.
What does it mean tobe human in this era?
Amy Centers (32:24):
Yeah.
Well, I think we have to startby realizing that it can't just
be empathy or vulnerability,because AI is already
mimicking that language, right?
What it can't replicateis embodied presence.
How a, you know, going backto what I had earlier said,
how a leader's nervoussystem regulates the room.
How they noticesubtle cues, right?
(32:47):
How they create truepsychological safety.
So being human isn't about theright words 'cause AI can come
up with much better praising,but it's about how your
nervous system lands on others.
And you know, I used tofacilitate a lot of EQ sessions
and I would say like, and thisis true, the higher you go up,
the bigger the splash, but like.
(33:07):
The metaphor I like is if you'rea ship in the ocean and it's
really wavy and it's a badstorm, if you're not anchored,
you're gonna go whereverthe waves are taking you.
That boat's gonna rockall over the place, right?
And everybody on boardis gonna get seasick.
And that's why I think it'sso important that leaders
center themselves, becausethere's all kinds of incoming
(33:29):
stimuli all day that'sgonna trigger people, right?
But if you can find ways tostay in grace and be centered
and not be at the mercy of allthese external impacts, you
can really show up for peoplein a way that inspires trust.
And I think that's thestuff that is gonna
be really important.
People can get away withsaying really beautiful things.
(33:51):
There's all kinds of leadershipwisdom that's on LinkedIn
and it's all AI generated,but how people are actually
showing up in real life momentto moment, working through
difficult situations withother humans and interfacing
with complex work that'sgonna be the work of a leader.
David Rice (34:08):
Yeah I would agree with that.
And I also say like, it used toalways seem like being a leader
was about having the answers.
I don't think that'sthe case anymore.
Right?
Like we just published recentlyan interview and in it, the
gentleman we interviewed, hewas talking about your ability
to ask better questions.
And I think that is somethingthat's gonna be increasingly
(34:28):
important because it can mimicknowledge, but it doesn't
have a sense of instinct orlike the nuanced understanding
of something, right?
And it doesn't know how toactually lead with empathy.
Like it can give youempathetic phrasing.
Like you said, it can giveyou a nice order of words, but
like it doesn't have a nervoussystem to regulate the room,
(34:48):
so this is part of what you'redoing is like mastering this
so that you can get the resultsthat your team is looking for.
And I think it meansleaning into ambiguity,
being okay with discomfort.
And you know what?
I think it's also gonna bemaking room for some creativity
that's just not that efficient.
Amy Centers (35:06):
Totally.
Which is why it kind ofgoes back to the original
conversation about AI worksreally well if you let people
experiment and be messy andmake mistakes and do different
things and gets it into arhythm of how it actually can
work for them specifically.
Right.
And I think that'strue for work as well.
I think that's one ofthe things, you know.
(35:27):
I saw a post about this morning.
I've been seeing aconversation more and
more start to form around.
The idea of artificialintelligence is such a misnomer,
and it, I think, really can setpeople on the wrong path because
you have to look at the toolas an LLM, you have to look at
it as a large language model.
All it's doing is piecingtogether words that it
(35:49):
thinks people wanna hear.
So when you look at itthrough that lens, I think
you treat it differently.
Right.
And if people are thinkingit's actual intelligence that
it's gonna, I've had, youknow, it generate mistakes
for me in a question that Iasked somebody that didn't
really work for the contextand, you know, shame on me.
(36:11):
Right.
Critical.
Well, the other.
David Rice (36:14):
Well, the thing is like if you're trying
to move fast, it's gonnahappen at some point.
You know what I mean, like.
Amy Centers (36:19):
That, the implications when you look
like an idiot asking a questionfor context or something.
Critical thinking.
We talk a lot about what skillsare people gonna need and we
banter it around so much thatit all becomes buzzwordy, right?
And then we ignore it.
But I really think ability tothink critically is gonna be one
of the most important things.
And unfortunately,I haven't seen great
(36:39):
displays about thus far.
Like if you just go on Facebookand people are putting, like,
I don't own the rights to thismusic, that somehow it dismisses
any kind of copyright law or.
The P were in a baseballcap, so was that good or bad?
Like people aren'teven looking to see if
things are AI generated.
They're just buyingthings wholesale.
So I really think that criticalthinking is struggling.
(37:01):
And it's gonna besomething that's really
important moving forward.
David Rice (37:05):
Well, one of my concerns about nuanced
understanding is I'm like, we'realso getting worse at nuance.
So I'm like, how manyof us are fit to lead?
You know what I mean?
Like that's.
Amy Centers (37:16):
Yeah.
David Rice (37:16):
It is gonna be an issue.
Amy Centers (37:18):
Wow.
We're gonna have to, aspeople dig deep and find some
discipline for ourselves.
You know, when we were talkingabout leader behaviors, one
of the things that's difficultis I think all of us as
humans have a tendency to belike, but I'm not like that.
You talk about EQ and it'slike very few people wake up
(37:38):
every day, get their coffeeand think, I'm gonna go into
work and terrorize people.
It's not their intent,but it happens, right?
It does happen.
And so people tend to dismisstheir own behavior, right?
We filter for our intent.
And other people's visiblebehavior and that gap can
be really problematic interms of how we show up.
(37:59):
Right?
David Rice (37:59):
No, absolutely.
We're gonna wrap up here.
But before we go, I want toask you one last question and
it's, if you were to burn it alldown, what's the first pillar of
work you'd rebuild differently?
Amy Centers (38:10):
I would start with manager accountability.
I think that most dysfunctioncascades from managers.
They're too oftenunsupported, underdeveloped.
They're not held accountablefor how they lead.
If you don't fix that hingelayer, every other reform
like engagement skills, AIadoption, it all collapses.
(38:33):
So if I were to burn itall down, which is my book
title, I started rebuildingthe manager role and 'cause
it's the hinge between likestrategy and human experience.
David Rice (38:44):
Yeah.
Amy Centers (38:44):
They need support, but they, I think
the accountability thingis also really important.
I mean, how many times havewe seen entire teams cycle
out of a company before themanager behavior gets addressed?
David Rice (38:55):
Absolutely.
I was thinking about thisas I was creating that
question, like I was sittingthere, right, typing it into
the email and I thought.
What would I rebuild?
And I think I'd wanna startwith how we define value
because we treat visibilityas value right now.
Like if I see you online,I see you in the office
or in meetings, I assumeyou're contributing.
We know that remoteemployees are having a
(39:16):
different experience fromin-office employees, right?
I think I'd want to try toflip that a little bit and
build a work model that'smore like, depth is visible.
So contribution is measured bythings like clarity, creativity,
obviously impact, but notcalendar Invites are, you know,
things attended essentially.
(39:36):
Because I feel like if weget the foundation right,
all the rest of it has a muchbetter chance of aligning,
but it's gotta be about.
Finally moving away.
I mean, we, I just sawanother big return to
office announcement and I'mthinking to myself, and this
is a company that's heavilysaying that it's using AI.
AI is inherently, youdon't need to be together.
Like, what are you doing?
(39:58):
Like, it's like get everybodytogether so that they can sit in
cubicles and talk to this thing.
Like, it doesn't make any sense.
So I just feel like, yeah, we'vejust gotta redefine value a
little bit differently, I just.
Amy Centers (40:12):
I love that.
I think that's thecrux of it all, right?
So many thingsrevolve around that.
Even a leader has a stereotypeof what kind of style they have.
Like we've gotta look deeperto your point, which I think
might take a while, but Ithink we'll get there and
I think we'll be forcedto, you know, to get there.
Because again,this isn't working.
(40:32):
This 1950s industrial facetime, nine to five, to seven
to nine, six days a week,it's not sustainable and it's
the most important thing.
It's not gettingthe best of people.
That's it, right?
It's not gettingthe best of people.
It's getting people who areover caffeinated, unders,
(40:53):
slept undernourished, checkingtheir phone every five seconds
because they're so distracted.
There's so many things thatare creating productivity
impacts that have nothingto do with where you're
actually doing your work.
David Rice (41:08):
And I was thinking about like for everybody
that's working in the 996thing and some people are
like, yeah, you know, we'regetting all this done.
First thing I think is, A,it's not sustainable and b, I
wouldn't hold it up or boastabout it because if you think
that 996 is gonna get tough.
Wait till they want 797,you know what I mean?
(41:29):
Like wait till they want sevenday work weeks or whatever.
Like you've got to startdrawing lines and forcing the
fact that like the promiseof this was for us to do
more with less, and that lesswasn't just less people, it
was less time consumption.
On all these kind ofmid-level things, right?
Like value things toget us on high value.
(41:50):
That's where we need tostill be concentrating.
It can't just be, we'vealways focused on so far is
efficiency and productivity.
There has to be more promiseto enza that, or if this is
just gonna be like anothertool and eventually it's
gonna not have as much value.
Because everybody'sgonna find it.
Amy Centers (42:06):
Yeah, and I mean, I think that's kind of
the season that we're in, onecontrol, but two, this weird
use of AI that actually isn'thaving that much of an impact.
I mean, if I can summarize ameeting and say five minutes
and maybe do that threetimes and say 15 minutes,
and I use that 15 minutesto go walk to the coffee
cart with a friend of mine.
(42:26):
Right.
It's like we're not askingthe right questions and we're
not really, I think thatit feels so much of work.
I know I've said this toyou before, but so much
of what bothers me aboutour 1950s work models is.
There's so muchperformative, right?
It's all performativetheater, and I feel like
that's what a lot ofcompanies are doing with AI.
(42:48):
They wanna say they'reusing it, they've gotta
kind of report it out.
They've gotta seem likethey're on point in putting
AI out there, but it'snot actually being used
in any meaningful ways.
So.
Your inputs affectyour outputs, right?
So they're gonna getwhat they are giving.
David Rice (43:05):
We're gonna get there.
Amy Centers (43:05):
Eventually.
It'll get there.
It'll be interesting to see.
It's a really fun time.
It's a super exciting time,and I do think that there's
some energy around, Hey, canwe modernize how we work?
Can we do this differently?
I hear conversationsstarting to.
Form in that direction.
And I think that's reallyexciting because it can
(43:26):
impact people and workand outcomes and value in
really significant ways.
So I love that we're eventalking about this right now.
You know, I think that partof the first step is like
just bringing these kind ofissues to the surface, and.
David Rice (43:41):
I think a lot of folks are maybe don't think
that they have the answersor they're uncomfortable
talking about it, but like forleaders, I think that this is.
This kind of stuff is,the stuff that's gonna be
long term is what's gonnabe on your plate, right?
Today it's AItransformation, but as you.
Figure that out.
The next piece is gonnabe what's the impact
of this on your people?
And like, what doyou have them doing?
(44:02):
How are you extracting themost value that you can out of
those people that you've got?
So yeah, I think this isgonna be a very interesting
next couple of years withall this on our plate and
seeing what develops as thetechnology's changing so fast.
Amy Centers (44:15):
Yeah.
Well, we'll get togetherperiodically and kind of,
you know, talk about it.
David Rice (44:20):
Absolutely.
Well, thank you forcoming on today.
I really appreciate it.
If you're looking toconnect with Amy, you
can find her on LinkedIn.
Until next time, get signedup for the newsletter
if you haven't already.
Just gonna say, Hey, stay human.
Figure out what it means to behuman in your role right now.
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