Intimacy, Sex and Connection with 25 year relationship and Intimacy coach Ken Blackman

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Joining the Perch is Ken Blackman, a former Apple engineer turned international relationship and intimacy expert. Ken is in his 25th year of helping couples co-create a thriving partnership and an exquisite love life.  

Ken's unique perspective on intimacy has caught the attention of major publications like Business Insider, Cosmopolitan, and Playboy. He's also been a part of the conversations sparked by Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour series. A regular and featured contributor to The Good Men Project, Better Humans, and Sexography, Ken brings a wealth of knowledge, and today, he's here to share his insights with us. On top of that, he curates his wisdom in his Medium publication, "The Craft of Intimate Coupledom." 

So, whether you want to deepen your connection or ignite a new spark in your relationship, sit back as we unfold the secrets to a fulfilling partnership with Ken Blackman. Let's get started.
https://kenblackman.com

Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well, good day fellow perchers and welcome to the
perch.
Before we get started, and Tobyis going to do today's
introduction, I just want to sayI am so I feel like I say this
all the time, but I am reallyexcited about this one.
I have asked for this guest tograce our presence.
I think can I reach out to youback in October.

(00:28):
If I'm not, I had to go backand check my email, so I've been
wanting this for a while.
Perch, we've talked about a lotof subjects.
There's no subject.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Nothing we dodge.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
We don't dodge anything.
Maybe, we should.
Maybe we haven't, but we don't.
But this one is my, has been,will be my pleasure to talk
about this subject, becausetoday we are talking about sex
and intimacy, and here on aperch.
The whole purpose of perch isfor you.
So whatever you feel about asubject or whatever your thought

(00:58):
process is, we ask you when youjoin a perch, you know we try
to elevate the discussion, tryto get you to see it from
different perspectives.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
And so for Nat Toby, you can take it away with your
introduction yeah, and Tree saysI have to act like an adult
today.
Try, I'm going to do my best.
It's not always the easiestthing in the world, so let me
excuse me.
So let me read a quick introfor our guest today.
So a former Apple engineerturned international
relationship and intimacy expert, ken, is in his 20th year

(01:27):
helping couples co-create athriving life partnership and an
exquisite love life.
His work has garnered mentionsin Business Insider,
cosmopolitan Playboy, timFerrita's 4-Hour Series and
elsewhere Our Series andelsewhere.
He's a regular featuredcontributor to the Good Men
Project, better HumansSexography and his own medium

(01:49):
publication, the Craft ofIntimate Coupledom, and
hopefully I didn't make anymistakes in that, ken.
That's not Tim Ferriss, butwe're good, okay, all right, so
that's it.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
So welcome, though I do have an update that's five
years old.
I'm celebrating my 25th yeardoing this full-time.
Oh my, goodness.
Well happy anniversary.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yes yes, what's the 25-year anniversary?
I guess that would be a Nevermind.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Don't use your hands.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Whatever, it is yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
But yes, I want to start Thank you.
Thank you for joining our usagain With all sincerity.
I mean I appreciate you workingus in.
Before we get too deep in here,Thank you so much for inviting
me.
Absolutely.
I went in your intro.
It's something I want to starton right off the bat.
What's exquisite?
How did you describe it?

(02:38):
Exquisite, exquisite.
What was I have?

Speaker 2 (02:42):
to go back to the type it's it's love life,
exquisite love life yeah, soplease help me with that yes
that's an exquisite love, yeahyeah, it's a.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's a good question.
I used to have right in thatspot.
I used to say gourmet, um, andso here's how I think about
gourmet you know like delectableyeah, gour, gourmet sex life,
because you like so many, somany of us approach our sex life
, you know, like it's fast food,you know what's what's going to
be, what's going to be fast,what's going to be like like you

(03:15):
know how, like Doritos areintensely flavored and you know.
Or, or junk food is very, veryintensely flavored, but it's not
very nourishing.
And sex and connection andintimacy all of those things are
nutrients that we, as humans,hunger for, and so you know, in
the same way, like you know,there's not much more basic

(03:39):
biological than sex.
I mean, there's breathing,there's eating, you know, but
breathing is kind of boring, buteating is, is something that
you can actually, you know,spend a lot of time learning how
to cook delicious meals.
You can go and have a, have adelicious meal you would spend
hundreds of dollars to have andtalk about for months afterwards
, and so I think sex can be likethat, and I also feel, like you

(04:04):
know, it can get better overtime with your partner.
It doesn't have to be like youknow, you keep looking for new
partners and then it goesdownhill.
No, the best sex, in my opinion, is the sex that you cultivate
with your partner over time.
So you know you can elevate itto a gourmet experience for sure

(04:26):
.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
And, unlike a gourmet meal, you actually lose weight.
You don't gain weight.
If you do it correctly, I'msure so that's that's right,
that's right.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
So it's funny because and it's ironic that you use in
the comparison with food andrelation and sex, and you went
from gourmet because I've doneit multiple times I've used food
as a reference for evendiversity in culture, I would
say, because with a meal youknow the more seasonings, which

(04:56):
is a lot of peppers and colorsand spices.
So the more diversity you knowyou have in it, the better it is
.
But I find it interesting thatwhat you're saying is opposite
to what society believes because, with all due respect, that's
why it's not.
The numbers have always beenstaggering between older men and

(05:17):
younger women.
The whole purpose of that iswell, she's younger, you know,
and you know not only looks butas far as stamina and people
think when you're older, sexbecomes more taxing, um, and
some people physically difficultand hard to do.
So you're saying that from thereverse of the way that society

(05:38):
sees it.
Like you know you got a goodcouple.
You know your 20s and 30s Getit in because, because after
that it's all downhill.
And that's just honest, honestand true about society and the
way society reflects on it.
But your, your, your viewpointis different.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, and it's funny, we don't think that way about
food, I mean.
So here's the analogy that Igive, that way about food, I
mean.
So here's the analogy that Igive.
So imagine that you're a coupleand imagine that you cook
dinner together I don't know acouple times a week, right and
you cook it together and you eatit together.
So the first thing you have tofigure out is you know you have

(06:18):
different tastes in food, so youhave to figure out how to make
a meal where both of you aregetting you know the stuff that
you like to eat and avoidinglike, oh, one person doesn't
like spicy food, the otherperson has an allergy to
so-and-so.
So the first thing you have todo is figure out how are we
going to make a meal where bothpeople get what they want and

(06:40):
neither of them has to have eatsomething that they don't enjoy.
Same thing with sex.
Like how can we both get upfrom the bedroom, you know,
gratified, without having to dosomething that we don't enjoy
doing?
Totally doable, that's likethat is completely doable, and
that's step one.

(07:00):
So now you're cooking thesemeals.
You kind of have a basic ideaof how to cook meals for each
other.
Um, then you start, you know,you start playing with, with
different cuisines.
Oh, you know, let's, I, I'dlike to learn how to cook
mexican food.
Oh, here's an herb or a spiceor a cooking utensil.
That that, I think, what you Iwanted, I want to try playing

(07:21):
with.
Oh, you can start trying outrecipes and, and you know, like,
like, you start, you start outfollowing the recipe and then
pretty soon, you make it yourown thing.
Well, if a couple is doing that, it's like with, with very
little drama, with very littleeffort, with a very little, you
know, fighting or anything.
Five years from now, thosemeals are going to be dialed in.

(07:56):
They're going to be like, oh,be like, oh, we're making better
meals for ourselves than whatyou could get at a restaurant,
and it wasn't that hard.
We talk about it every day andput time and energy and
attention on it.
So I think our sex life can bethat way too.
It can get better over time.
Just doing it very simply,putting your attention on each
other's bodies, what feels good,you know, and getting it dialed

(08:20):
into you as individuals.
That's how.
I feel, about it and you canhave sex it's you can have.
So I'll I feel about it and youcan have sex, it's you can have
.
So I'll say one more thing youcan have sex.
It's better than you can findif you're with a partner over
time that's my say that one moretime for me.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
You can have say that the last yeah so.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
So instead of keep like you, keep finding the new
partner.
You know we need some kind ofvariety.
No, you can actually craft anexquisite sex life with a
partner that gets to a placewhere it's so good.
You're not you're not enviousof what's out there.
You're not looking forsomething out there.
It's like you.
You like what you got at home.

(08:58):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (08:59):
So a couple of things .
I grabbed my phone because itwas a couple of statistics that
I wanted to bring up and address, but but I do have to to say,
piggyback off what you just said, I think the fact that and Toby
and I had this, we try not totalk about the subjects because
I don't want to know hisviewpoint and I have mine, his

(09:21):
viewpoint and I have mine, but Ithink it's interesting that
even this is 2024.
And a lot of times, just themere fact of talking about sex,
talking about intimacy, has tobe put in terms where it's
palatable, literally, you know,for people to digest, because we

(09:41):
want them to get the lesson,and sex is still so taboo, no
matter what age.
So that's one thing, and Iguess I should have started this
show off by saying you knowthis is an adult conversation
and we are having an adultconversation.
We probably should have saidthat before.
So you know if people arelistening with their children,
please don't because I really Ireally want to talk and get into

(10:03):
this.
But, with that being said, Ithink that I hear you.
You said it very simplistically.
That makes sense.
Here is the what my version ofkind of some truth behind it,
and I think you may agree withme or not, and you don't have to
.
It sounds easy when you, whenyou compare it to a meal and say

(10:26):
, okay, you know, well, we hadItalian, now, let's try, you
know a Mexican and let's trythis.
You're saying let's mix it up,let's let's, you know, take it
to another level, and you'reusing food and taking on
different menus.
But, to be honest, in mostrelationships it's not uncommon.
I think you know where I'mgoing.

(10:47):
If you want to start changingthings in a bare room, one mate
will say well, where did thatcome from and was that not good
enough?
And how do you get the ego out?
Because what you're saying isto experiment, to keep trying to
keep things fresh.
How do you teach people in yourcoaching to remove the ego?
Because that's saying because alot of times people will hear

(11:08):
something is broken andsomething's not working, so you
need to try something new,because I don't cook like that.
So who taught you how to cooklike that you know so.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you bring up some very, somevery valid points and I totally
agree with you.
Like my, my very simple tip ofthe iceberg that I gave is
sitting on top of a huge,gigantic iceberg of other things
that need to be in place.
Like you know, you're right,Like it helps if you have a
relationship where you can talkabout stuff in general.

(11:37):
Right, Like it, that that iskind of a that is kind of a
necessary prerequisite if youwant to have a great sex life
with someone.
You have to be able to sayuncomfortable things to your
partner and be able to talkthrough it and stay connected
through the conversation to getto a place where you actually
can hear each other and get tosome sort of agreement or some

(12:01):
sort of consensus about it andfeel closer afterwards.
That's one thing.
The other thing is, you'reright, there's a lot of ego
involved and if one partner hasbeen, shall we say, either
silent, like not talking aboutoh, I don't really like, I'm
more doing this for them thanfor myself, or maybe just not

(12:26):
talking about what they actuallylike and what they don't, or
maybe even putting on a littlebit of a show because they like
it.
And then there's ego involved.
When you start deciding, youknow what.
I have an uncomfortable truthto share with you.
That's not going to feel good.
I've kind of been, you know,maybe exaggerating, Faking

(12:50):
faking.
You know, I've been, I've beenfaking it and I but you know.
So that is an uncomfortableconversation to have.
That's like you know.
But if this is a committedcouple, I would like to think
that it's 51%.
You know, 49% Wow, that reallystings.

(13:13):
I can't believe it.
I have to like take a minute totake this in.
And 51%, I'm actually gladwe're talking about this If
that's been the truth the wholetime, like I'm actually glad
that you brought it up and youknow so.
So one person could be sayingyou know the the thing, if, if
I'm, if I'm having theexperience for real that I've

(13:50):
been pretending to have, Ipromise you you will feel the
difference, you will notice thedifference if I'm actually
enjoying it as much as I've beenpretending to enjoy it, and
that's the territory I want toget us into.
So it could be could be afraidthat makes sense.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
But outside of a sexual relationship, you know,
confidence is important at allat all aspects of life, right?
So, yeah, a person who isn'tnecessarily confident in their
day to day life or in theirbusiness life, it's unrealistic
to believe that all of a suddenthey're going to go into the
bedroom, take their clothes off,perhaps with light on, and
somehow feel confident.
So is there some aspect thatyou can say look, I want you to

(14:31):
feel comfortable, I want you tounderstand that we're all
literally exposed when thishappens, and to get past that,
because I feel like mostrelationships have a dominant
person and then the other personwho kind of goes along for the
ride.
How do you level thatrelationship out better?

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah.
So that's a very it's a veryastute question.
It's a very it's kind of acomplicated question and there's
multiple answers to thatquestion.
So I'm just going to kind ofpluck one and we can look at it
and, you know, go from there.
But part of it is being able tosay, you know, because it's

(15:13):
either going to sound likecriticism or it's going to sound
like a request, and so you knowall the places where you might
be tempted to say you know whatI don't really like, that there,
another way to another way tosay the same thing is what would
feel really good for me is ifwould you, would you touch me

(15:34):
this way, or can I teach yousomething about my body?
That will?
That will be really that I willenjoy immensely.
Like.
Point them towards what youlike and what you want, as
opposed to criticizing them forwhat they're doing wrong, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
I don't know if that answers your question, but it's
going in the right direction.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
Well, just the idea that I think that in many cases,
the largest sex organ we haveis the brain, right?
I mean, if we feel in the moodto be sexual, we can be sexual,
and I think sometimes people getin their own way, as opposed to
just saying this should be anenjoyable time, a wonderful
experience.
You know two people in the mostultimately intimate way

(16:17):
possible, and somehow your braingets in the way.
Am I too fat?
You know?
Should I put this on?
You know, oh, that that lightmakes me look bad, all of those
things.
How do you get past all thatyou know to really get to the
true pleasurable experience thatit can be?

Speaker 3 (16:32):
I mean my wife and I both deal with all the issues
that you're talking about.
It's not like it goes away.
You know, I have body issues,my wife has body issues.
We're getting older and we'renoticing the changes in our
bodies.
You know, I'm 60.
I'm noticing how mytestosterone levels are changing
.
So all of these things you'retalking about and I don't think

(16:55):
there's a simple way around itLike you're going to have
feelings and those feelings aregoing, you're right, they are
going to affect your capacity tofeel turned on and it's
experience, and feel your libido, feel your desire and feel the
desire to have sex.
All those things come into play, um, where, where you can turn

(17:15):
your attention, is what feelsgood to your body right now.
What kind of touch feels goodto your body right now?
Like, turn, like, let your bodyand and how it likes to be, how
it likes to be touched, be, bea kind of a beacon, because
every, every body, every body,um, there's some kind of touch

(17:41):
that is going to feel good.
And so you know there, you'reright that the brain is, is, is
the, the biggest sex organ.
But we can get so far into,like, all the, all the, the, the
conditions or the thoughts orall that stuff that is in the
way of you having just like bodypleasure.

(18:03):
And so if you turn yourattention a little bit towards
body, bodily pleasure, somaticpleasure, which is really what
sex should be about, and focuson that and say, say I actually
don't know what feels good,would you touch me this way?
Oh, I actually don't like that,would you lighten up a little
bit, would you move a little bitto the left, you know, and get

(18:24):
to know your own body that waywith your partner, and get to
know your partner's body, andfrom that place a lot of that
other stuff falls away, it doesnot like, it doesn't come up.
Oh, I'm feeling really.
I'm feeling really conscious ofmy weight today.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
How does this, how does thisfeel when I touch you?
It's good, you know.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I hear you, but I have to.
I have to step in and Iliterally had to pull out my
glasses because I didn't want toscrew this up, One of the main
reasons that I was so adamantabout perch addressing this
subject.
I had been hearing this and Ikind of got this early on and I
tried to and I'll put the linkson the website below, but this
is very important.

(19:06):
It says and this is me I am nota man, have never been a man,
so I will, I will, I will.
Thank you for vouching.
I will leave the male talk toexplain the male body.
But what I am here for womenand what I have to say is in
these studies, like 10 to 15% ofwomen have never had an orgasm

(19:27):
Ever, and this was byMedlinePlusgov on orgasmic
dysfunction.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
The government website is doing this survey
about that.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Why would they not?
It's body, it's health?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
I don't know what the government's getting involved
with my business.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Oh, you and your government.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, let's get the government out of my bedroom.
Way off of it anyhow.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
And then next the next one.
It says up to 10 of women havenever had an orgasm.
But it went on to say, um, that59 have faked an orgasm and
nearly 82 cannot reach an orgasmthrough just intercourse.
They need stimulation, clitoralstimulation, toys, all of that.

(20:06):
And it went on to say that.
And I remember about 20 yearsago.
It was life-changing for me.
But I was watching Oprah and DrLaura Berman, who was a doctor
and a health psychologist.
I forgot her exact title, soforgive me if I got it wrong.
I remember her wrong.
Yeah, she said something thatforever changed the way I look

(20:28):
at sex and approach it, becauseshe said something so simplistic
.
She says, as a society, boysare allowed to go in their room
and you don't go in their door.
Like when a boy is in his roomand his door closed, they say
you don't want to walk intosomething, so don't just
surprise, knock before you go in, because that's our society way

(20:50):
of giving boys the freedom tomasturbate.
Well, girls don't have thatfreedom, you know.
So that that's something that'sgiven a boys.
And so she said what happenswhen, when you're a young girl,
the first boy that touch you orrub up against you, you, you
give him so much power becauseyou think the boy did that to

(21:11):
your body.
When it's your body, that's anylittle boy to come.
Anybody came along, boy, girl,anyone came on.
What comes along that touchingyour body will have that
reaction, will have thatreaction.
So I'm saying all that to sayhow do we have the conversation
Because that's what Toby wastalking about when we can have
communication and we can havethese things when girls are

(21:32):
raised not to talk about it fromday one.
So now your relationships andnow you marry.
Now you're telling me well,let's have adult conversations
about honesty when, according tothese statistics, we haven't
been honest from day one that'sright, and let me add some
statistics to what you'vealready said.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Yeah, so I don't know how true this is now, but a
decade ago what they, you knowthey were noticing A decade ago
what they, you know they werenoticing ratings, movie ratings.
You know the MPAA ratings likeis it G, p, d, r?
You know NC-17.
What they noticed was therecould be some pretty graphic sex

(22:23):
scenes in a pleasure, like awoman masturbating or someone
going down on a woman, you know,and that's the primary sex act
that they do in the scene.
That's when it gets an NC-17 oran X rating.
And so, like, all of our mediais oriented towards sex being

(22:44):
for male pleasure more so thanwomen.
Like women don't even have,they can't even turn on the
movies and see, not real, youknow, like a well acted, so to
speak.
You know something thatactually shows them having
pleasure, something thatactually shows them having

(23:04):
pleasure.
And you're right, there's thishuge gap between how often women
have an orgasm in sex and howoften men do.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Well, even in R-rated movies, right to your point,
it's much more common to seewomen naked than it is to see
men fully naked.
I mean, it's very rare to seethat.
So again, it's a male-dominatedsociety and, sexually speaking,
it seems to be very muchtargeted towards the male
audience.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, women are the object of sex.
They're not the experiencer ofpleasurable sex, right?
That's just how.
So you're right, women don'teven, aren't even given messages
that tell them that it's okayto have a healthy libido, that
it's okay to enjoy sex, it'sokay to want sex, it's okay to

(23:52):
know what your body likes and toask for it.
And I used to teach.
Mostly these days I have beenfocused more on relationships.
But for the first maybe 10, 12years of my work, my
professional work, I was focusedon on what happens in the
bedroom and I was teaching menhow to put full attention on a

(24:15):
woman's body.
And so we would set it up that,ok, you're going to go home,
you're going to, you're going toput your attention on her body.
She doesn't have to do anything, she's not going to owe you
anything, she's there's no.
Like you're going to, like allshe has to do is relax and, uh,
give you a little bit ofinstruction like how, how, how

(24:36):
to touch her, you know, like, if, if it feels too hard, she can
tell you to soften up a littlebit.
Oh, would you speed up?
Like that's, all she has to dois relax.
You give you some adjustmentsas you go and and enjoy it, and
and then you get up and you say,okay, so that's the setup.
You would be amazed how manywomen struggle even with that,

(24:58):
like their mind is racing, likehow am I going to tell him what
you know?
Like, am I, am I breathing,right?
Should I be moaning right now?
Like is what we're doingpleasurable for him?
Right?
Because that's how deep, uhacclimated women are to to
thinking that sex is for thepartner, like empathetic sex,

(25:21):
rather than for their enjoyment,even when it's set up for that.
So you're right, there's thishuge barrier, right?

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Can I just, can I just can I just use one more
analogy?
So this happened and I think somany people can women can
relate to this.
So this happened I was out todinner with some friends and the
waiter was so um, the server Isay waiter, he liked to, but the

(25:48):
server was so um, aiming toplease me, he was, so he wanted
to get it right.
We ordered a drink and hewanted to get it right and he
was so pleased with himself.
He was bragging about thisdrink and he sat it down and I
didn't like it.
And so I was with a bunch ofwomen and and everything was oh,

(26:09):
tree, tell him you like it,because and this is a metaphor
for what you're saying andeverything is he he's trying to
please just tell him.
I said I am not going to lie tohim, and the table was upset
with me because I have a habitof saying I don't really say I
don't like things, but I don't,I don't, I don't lie, I'm not
going to lie to make you feelgood.

(26:30):
So I was like when they know,when I say it's okay it's not
okay, it's mediocre, it's likeit's not bad.
If it's bad, I'll say it's bad,but the whole point of it is
this is at the root of why womenstruggle because it goes to the
barrel.
And her thing was, when he cameback again, he goes, let me fix

(26:51):
it.
I said, let it go.
And he goes, let me fix it foryou.
So he fixed the drink.
He comes back again and he setsit down.
And she was adamant, one friend.
And she was like you are goingto tell him you like it, you are
not.
And I was like no, I'm not.
So when he got, when he said,so what do you think of the
drink?
And before I could say anything, she stopped me and said it was
great.
But that's the psyche, and womenneed to hear that, because we

(27:12):
are conditioned to please, weare conditioned to not rock the
boat, take it, swallow it.
It goes into the bedroom.
And that's why I said to you itsounds great, it sounds like
you're.
You're're not stating, you'renot requiring much from couples.
But with that many layers ofyears of lying before you about

(27:34):
honesty, about how you feelabout something, how do you
remove all of those layers whenit comes into the sex when
that's our most vulnerablesacred place, when it comes into
the sex when that's our mostvulnerable sacred place.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough, and so I'll
tell you what I say to men, andthen I'll tell you what I say to
women, okay, so, first of all,it's useful to know that we men
have no idea that all this isgoing on Right Like we're we're,
we are clueless to it, we don'tknow, we have no clue to help
me.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Help me with that.
What do you mean?
The?

Speaker 3 (28:07):
gap, the gap between what I'm experiencing in the
bedroom and what what a womanmight be experiencing.
That like she's, you know, ifshe's oriented, if she is, like
many women, is oriented towardsnot asking for what she wants,
not not telling me, but justgoing along with it in the way
that we've been talking aboutright Women are trained to be
that way.

(28:27):
I don't know that she's notenjoying it as much as I am.
So I have no idea how big thegap is and I have no idea.
Like I say to men, first of all, I hate to break it.
I tend to be pretty blunt.
So if I've got the guy and I'vegot a relationship with him, a

(28:50):
coaching relationship where Ican actually be straight with
him, I say the sex that you arelike, he's asking for more sex.
She's asking for better sex andI say the sex that you are
trying to have with her ismediocre.
I say the sex that you aretrying to have with her is
mediocre and the sex that youcould be having with her is so
much better than what you'redoing.

(29:11):
But what it's going to requirein order for her to be having as
much fun with it as you are,you're going to have to put 10
times the amount of attention onher body than what you have
been.
And he's like 10 times.
And I was like, no, that's notan exaggeration, you're going's
like that 10 times.
And I was like, no, I, that'snot an exaggeration.
You're going to have to put 10times the amount of attention on
her body than what you've doneup till now.
And but and the sex that youwill be having with this woman

(29:36):
in this situation is, is thatmuch better that you will be
grateful, you will be, you willbe grateful, you will be, you
will be, you will be obsessedwith pleasuring her.
You know, once you experiencewhat it's like to have a woman
who's who's actually enjoying tothis to the degree that that is
possible isn't part of thechallenge.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
I'm sorry, go ahead, finish your thought, and then I
want to ask you another questionwell, no, ask your question and
then I'll talk about what I sayit seems to me like there's an
inherent disconnect that Godgave us when he created man and
woman, and that is that a manlooks at sex as a physical act
of release Okay, I'm horny, Ineed to have sex, I've just

(30:16):
gotten my release, now I need apizza Whereas women look at it
and say sex is a relationship,it's intimacy, it's feeling
comfortable, it's being withsomebody that I love.
The word love doesn't alwayscome up when a man is thinking
about sex, but it seems toalways come up when a woman is
thinking about I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
No, no, no, no.
Not always connection.
Say connect not love love.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Am I missing that, or or do you?
Is that an element also thatgets in the way of that making
sure that both sides of therelationship are equal?

Speaker 3 (30:48):
a.
Based on my experience, thephenomenon you're describing is
cultural, not not physiologicalor evolutionary, like men, when,
when we really get, when wereally get, get deep into it.
Well, I'll give you an exampleof myself.
So I thought so.

(31:11):
Mind you, your audience doesn'tknow this, but I'm 5'0".
I'm not a tall man.
When I was younger, I didn'tconsider like I wasn't wealthy,
I wasn't athletic, I was veryshy, I wasn't charming, I didn't
know how to talk to a woman.
You know, I wasn't tall, Iwasn't very shy, I wasn't
charming, I didn't know how totalk to a woman.
I, you know, I wasn't tall, Iwasn't wealthy, I didn't have
any of these things that Ithought were necessary, and I

(31:41):
had been acculturated to thinkwhat I could feel, this deep,
deep, deep, deep, deep hunger,and what I thought I was hungry
for, was a hot young chick thatadores me and has lots and lots
of delicious sex with me.
That's what I thought, that I,that I, that that was the, that
was the thing, that if I hadthat, I would be completely

(32:03):
fulfilled, until I had anopportunity to have as much of
that as I wanted.
And then I realized, oh, that'snot actually the thing that I'm
hungry for the best part ofthose experiences.
After I had gotten over, likemy initial starvation was filled
very, very quickly withabundance, and what I realized

(32:28):
was the best part of this is theconversations I have with this
woman after we've had sex, and Istarted to get actually to the
real hunger of connection thatsex represented in my mind so
strongly and I had to, like,rewrite what it is I think I
want, and, and so I've had asmany, I've had as many women who

(32:50):
want physical pleasure and thephysical pleasure of sex as want
the connection, and I've had asmany men say they want the
connection as if they'resatisfied by by the physical
pleasure, and so I think, goahead.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
No, I think it's important and, to whatever
extent you are comfortable withsharing, I think it's important
to to to share a little more ofyour evolutionary journey from,
like you said when you wereyounger, how you cause.
You said I'm five foot nothing.
And then something happened andI know a little cause.
I Googled you some of yourstory where you got immersed

(33:24):
into this and because I thinkit's important to say not only
did I read about this in a book,this is lived experience and
I've experienced the evolutionof that.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah.
So there were a few things Ineeded to work on.
I needed to work on my like.
What I realized I realized wasI had I had issues of low
self-esteem.
I had a lot of misconceptionsabout what women want in a
partner and I had a ton ofmisconceptions about what I

(33:57):
actually was hungry for.
So I had to do the work toactually do things I would feel
good about.
I had to do the work ofdismantling why I put so much of
my self-esteem in the hands ofwomen Like, oh, if a woman loves
me, I'm great.
If I'm lonely and alone, I'mshit of rewriting internally

(34:25):
that I needed to do.
And then there was a lot of timethat I spent learning, like my
way of relating with women wasto get good at women's bodies.
And then I ended up in acommunity where a man who knew
how to pleasure a woman wasvalued right.
I was in a community wherewomen spoke the truth about the
fact that they enjoyed sex, thatthey liked it I had never heard

(34:46):
a woman say that before and whowas willing to tell me what
they liked.
So I had the benefit of havingwomen talk straight to me and
hit me up.
So there was a period of timeduring which I still struggled
for a long time to look a womanin the face and have a
conversation, but I could lookat her body and know what to do.

(35:09):
And so there was this period oftime where, yeah, he's great in
bed.
He can't talk to women for shit.
But that process sorry if Idon't know how your audience
feels about it.
You're fine, okay, great knowhow your audience feels about

(35:29):
you're fine, okay, great.
But then the conversations Ihad with this human being who I
had been like, like I, I hadbeen treating women like a video
game, like, oh, tell me thesequence of moves I need to do
in order to get the reward.
I didn't see this person as a,as a fellow human being like
myself, like the way I relatewith men, and so to have women
who were willing to share withme the things that either men

(35:51):
never get to hear about from awoman her actual lived
experience that's so differentfrom mine and I had no idea or
the men, who don't care, or theydon't listen to women don't
care.
Oh, they don't listen to women.
And so it was through thoseexperiences that I realized oh
no, this is actually the thingthat I've been hungering for,
that the whole time, and sex islives inside of that kind of

(36:14):
thing, rather than, rather than,oh, I'm just gonna go, you know
, eat, eat, doritos.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
And so it was out of that that I I started to really
change how I relate with myself,change how I relate with women
and actually be able to havelike healthy, long-term
relationships, with a long-termrelationship with anyone, it's
funny you say that because whenI went to school, there was a

(36:41):
woman that I, a fellow studentwho was very at the time, I
would have called her sexuallyliberated, and she was very
honest about her sexuality andshe talked very openly about her
sexuality and I found it veryrefreshing because mostly, let's
face it the stigma is alwaysguys can go talk about that
stuff but, god forbid, womencan't.
And a guy who has a lot of sexpartners is, you know, is a dude

(37:04):
, and a woman who does it's aslut, and so there was always
this stigma against it A slutwas kind of aggressive.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
I'm just saying Slut, you just didn't say slut.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Well.
So to me it was veryinformational, because it did
give me that insight into howwomen looked at sexuality and I
always felt like even in datingwe talked about this.
I used to enjoy dating when Iwas younger, but the one thing I
really couldn't stand was thatwhole dialogue of hey, let's go
out tonight.
Okay, what do you feel like?

(37:32):
I don't know.
What do you want to do?
How about Chinese?
No, I don't want Chinese.
How about Mexican?
No, I don't want Chinese.
How about Mexican?
No, I don't want Mexican.
And it was always a one-wayconversation where I threw
something over the transom and Igot a no back, or I got a no
back or I got a yes back, andthen when we finally went to
some place, then they would sayI knew we should have gone out
for steak and it's like thiswasn't a two-way conversation.
If you're not getting thatfeedback, I don't like this.

(37:58):
That's really wonderful.
I thought this was great andboth parties have enough of a
thick skin, if that's the rightword to take that and those
criticisms if they landcorrectly, I could see why the
challenges you are talking aboutcontinue to exist about

(38:21):
continued exist.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Great.
So women listening to this here, listen to two men saying we
actually want to know like it'sgonna sting, like like crazy and
our ego, we're gonna tastegonna be a big blow to our ego,
but but if we care about you, weactually care more to know the
truth and actually be connectedto you, with you in that way.
Then then then for you to keepfeeding us this, the, the

(38:42):
fakeness, even though obviouslywe do.
We have been enjoying it uptill now.
But there's this other thingthat's actually the deeper
nutrient of what we're actuallyhungry for as men, that that
that will be there.
Be there if we can do it in anhonest, clear way, where you

(39:03):
feel like you can trust usenough to tell us the truth.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
But I think also too and I just want to say this for
women, and again, this is myphilosophy of life, that's why
you shouldn't fake it.
I like seriously, because justand I'm almost tired of these
food metaphors, but I feel likehere we go again.
Here's another one.
You know, it was like ifsomebody I have my ex-brother in

(39:31):
law couldn't stand cabbage buthis wife cooked it all the time
and he goes, well, I just feellike she cooks it, I have to eat
it.
I'm like, if I don't likecabbage, I'm not eating cabbage,
and so it's the same way in afood manner.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
But the reality, is that that's sex?

Speaker 1 (40:01):
And people like tend to be, especially after time,
one trick ponies, you know it'sthe same room, the same
positions, the same thing.
And then it's like well, Idon't want to hurt anybody's
feelings, because if I want togo out in the great outdoors and
it was what happened to tree,you know, but serious, but I'm

(40:22):
joking, but I'm totally seriousand I say but this is why you
shouldn't fake it, because youget upset when someone thinks
that they're pleasing you, thenif that person is a pleaser,
they're going to continue to doit because they think they make
you happy.
You make me coffee everymorning.
I mean I coffee, but if I gettired of it I have to say to you
babe, I can't take another cupof coffee.

(40:43):
But making a point peoplestruggle to say, to be honest,
and say that doesn't work for me.
And if a woman is lying in abed and we're in an act of
intimacy, the staggering need tosay something, to show some
kind of emotion is there,because then you, you know, a

(41:04):
man will be like, well, she'sjust a dead fish.
But how do you do that?
And be honest is I feel likewe're just saying the same
things over and over, indifferent ways.
But yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
So I mean, I, I was that guy, I was very, I was very
accommodating.
You know I, I was like I pridedmyself on like, yeah, you know,
like water under the bridge.
You know what I mean.
Like some, if something bothersme, you know, like I just I
just let it go.
You know, like whatever, Iprided myself on that until I

(41:37):
found out from the gottmaninstitute I don't know if your
audience has heard of them, butthey do actual research.
They're probably the mostresearch oriented uh
organization on on how whatactually happens in
relationships and marriage andwhat makes them work.
And I found out from, actually,that skill of letting things go

(41:59):
and not making it a big deal isnot the skill that makes
relationships thrive.
What makes relationships thriveis your willingness to say the
thing that you haven't said andto stand up.
Actually, you know, take astand, even if it's something
that you know that they disagreeabout.
But to actually bring up thosethings that bothered you, bring
up those things that irritated.

(42:20):
You bring up those things andthat blew my mind because I
thought I was, I thought I was ayou know doing, doing the right
thing by by, by being soaccommodating.
No, the skill of relationshipis being being capable of
speaking up and then having theskill of having the conversation
go all the way through to theend so and, and I'm sorry, I was

(42:40):
gonna, I was gonna actuallychange topics, unless you wanted
to stay on this one.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
I wanted to talk about kind of the, the routine
and cadence.
You hear people, as they getolder, talk about hey, let's put
it on our calendar.
Hey, let's, you know, let'sschedule it every Tuesday,
sunday morning magic, you know.
Sunday morning to me thatsounds like institutionalizing
intimacy.
Does that work, or is it reallythe the best sex is is

(43:10):
spontaneous.
It's all of a sudden, it's arainy Wednesday afternoon and I
mean what, what?
What do you find in terms ofwhat?

Speaker 1 (43:18):
your studies, tell you today, wednesday.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, anyway, fancy that um, you know it's.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
It can be when, when we're young and we have all
those hormones coursing throughour veins and there is desire
for sex all the time, um, thenthen that can be a driving
factor.
But there's a lot ofpleasurable sex that gets left
on the table.
If you're waiting for your,your, your desire to, to be your

(43:53):
guy, like it can.
It can totally be that you setaside time.
You know where you're, justyou're.
There's no pressure Like we're,like the.
The worst thing you can do isset set aside that time and have
an expectation of what'ssupposed to happen and then
judge what actually happened.
Open, open ended.
We're just going to have somesensual time together and

(44:15):
anything that happens there's noway to do it wrong anything
that happens is the right thing.
Um, then what happens is youget in, you get in into, you
know you get, you get togetherand you, you just explore and
see what's there and there's asome of the best sex that you
that you've ever had comes fromthose times when you did nothing

(44:36):
more than just make space forit to happen.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, I wanted to say because to me I remember I
forgot where I heard this whensomeone explained intimacy is
into me, I see, and I was likethat's good, I like that because
that's part of that, becausepeople don't know the difference
between sex and intimacy.
You know, and it's a hugedifference and a lot of times

(45:06):
what my, my, my issue that Ihave with the scenario Toby
brought up with the timing, isit's an expectation to, like you
said, deliver something in theend.
An expectation to, like yousaid, deliver something in the
end.
You know, if it's our Wednesdayhump day, whatever you want to

(45:26):
call it, whatever you designatethat to be, a lot of times it is
on a man, the expectation iscompletion, because that's it.
We started a job and we need tofinish, as opposed to having a
day of intimacy and what comesfrom it comes from that, and I
think that that's a fundamentaldifference between men and women
, because we can have all ofthese very intimate and and and
not look for a happy ending, ifI may say.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
I was actually going to ask that in your definition
of intimacy, does it includeintercourse, or could intimacy
actually not have anything to dowith intercourse?

Speaker 3 (46:00):
You know, we're making this distinction between
sex and intimacy, which I thinkis valuable.
I think of intimacy as justlike the open sharing, whether
it has to do with sex or not.
But I want to even go a stepfurther and give my definition
of what sex is, because, youknow, if you go down partner,

(46:22):
you know like, uh, I was goingto talk about bill clinton and
not that.
Well, I won't go.
Whatever you need, whatever weneed to get it out, and get it
out toby

Speaker 1 (46:30):
yeah, I knew toby's gonna do this fake bill clinton.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
He's so proud of his impersonation of bill clinton.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
I did not have sex with that idiot, I just had to
let him he like a toddler he hasto get out his system, and then
you can.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
He's so proud of his impersonation of Bill Clinton.
I did not have sex with thatwoman Anywho, I just had to let
him.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
He's like a toddler, he has to get it out of his
system, and then you can go on.
Good Thank you.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
So since we've gone there, I shouldn't have said
anything.
But since we've gone there,people think that his claim was
that it wasn't sex because itwasn't intercourse, right, it
wasn't sex because she went downon him.
That's what people think.
That's not what he was saying.
He actually read this verycomplicated legalese definition
of sex.

(47:06):
Read it again and again andagain and again and again, and
he's a lawyer.
This definition is you're havingsex if you're the doer of the

(47:26):
act, but if you're on thereceiving end of the act, you're
not having sex.
And so, thankfully, that wasthrown out.
Like what are you crazy?
Like how can you have sex withyou but you're not having sex
with her right?
Like that doesn't make sense,right?
But there is this question likewhat is, is sex?
So I'll give you my definition.
So if there's, uh, likephysically pleasurable touch, um

(47:48):
with with sexual arousalbecause there's lots of, there's
lots of pleasurable touch thatisn't sexual.
So sexual arousal, physicaltouch, that that's pleasurable.
And connection, connectionbetween the two people, because
two people can be rubbing theirbodies, they can be rubbing
genitals, but they're notconnected, they're really just

(48:09):
masturbating on each other.
So my definition of sexincludes all three.
It's connection, pleasurablebody contact and sexual arousal.
If you've got that, whateveryou're doing, you're having sex,
in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Have you ever heard of this?
I watch, you ever watch.
I think it's Goop.
It's Gwyneth Paltrow show onNetflix and she did a sex and
intimacy one and she had thesesex therapists and doctors and
this man was brought to arousalby just um, the, the intimacy

(48:47):
coach, I think he, she was justgoing over his body, like with
her hands, but she didn'tphysically touch him and he
orgasmed, yeah, just from that,and there was no touch.
Do you consider that as sex orno?
You have to touch it's a validquestion.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
I would.
I would call that sex becauseshe was doing something like you
know, if you, if you considerlike pressing hard or touching
really light or touching likefrom a couple inches away, you
know like he was experiencingsomething.
What was amazing to me aboutthat whole episode?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
oh, you saw that he was.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
Yeah, he was so convinced that he wasn't going
to be into right, it was apartner who was into that, that
kind of energetic sex right hewas.
He was so convinced that thatwas not his thing until until he
had it experienced.
You know, he got a chance toexperience it and it was like
right, oh man, this is amazing.

(49:48):
That was what was surprising tome about that, about that
that's a good that.
That's a good point people haveto discover what they like.
They have to discover whatfeels good.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Speaking of discovering what they like, I do
want to bring up the fact thatand I think this is very
important because we can't lookaway from it Sorry, excuse me
One of the links that I'm goingto put out granted, it's over 10
years old and I'm pretty surethe data has probably been
refreshed since then.
10 years old and I'm prettysure the data has probably been
refreshed since then.

(50:20):
But it was concerning to mewhen I saw 85% of women, you
know, did not receive, could notbe aroused with just
intercourse.
They needed, you know, other,you know stimulations.
With that being said, how do weas women and I know the answer,
but I'm not the specialist, I'mgoing to leave it up to you so

(50:41):
how do women, when there's a lotof times, some men are
intimidated by toys, you know,some men think that a toy is a
replacement for you.
It's saying I'm not good enough, and all of these hangups.
So if it takes 85% of women tohave things like that, to have a
full orgasm, how do we havethat conversation and and that

(51:04):
transition and to to bringwhatever it takes to have the
ultimate pleasurable experiencefor all to the bedroom Right?

Speaker 3 (51:13):
This is great because we've come full circle.
So I said earlier, like, thething I say to men is you know,
the sex that you're going for,that you're trying to convince
her to have with you, isn't verygood sex and the sex that you
could be having is so muchbetter than what you're having.
And, believe me, you know, ifyou put the time and effort into
like having it be aspleasurable for her as it is for

(51:34):
you, you will enjoy it so muchmore than you even can imagine.
So that's the thing I say tomen.
And I also have to say yeah it'sgoing to take about 10 times as
much attention on her as whatyou're putting in.
The thing I say to her is keepin mind that you're not just,

(51:58):
yes, you are being an advocatefor you and your pleasure, and
that's important, that isabsolutely important and you
need to do that.
But it's not you against him.
You are advocating for sex.
That's going to be better forboth of you.
You're actually making him avery pleasurable offer.
It's not like you know hedoesn't know it, but the ask

(52:23):
that you're making of him isgoing to be of service to both
of you.
It's going to get both of youinto the territory.
That is as much better for himas it is for you.
And if you can keep that in mindwhen you're facing the
discomfort of saying the thing,and also keep in mind what
you've heard on on this, thisepisode of at least two men

(52:45):
saying no, actually, we actuallywant to know, and at least,
like we don't know, I don't know, like I don't know you're you
know.
So this random audiencemember's I don't know what he's
going to do, but at least takethe chance of like, given the,
the, what society has told you,the way to behave you know.

(53:10):
At least give it a chance ofleaning into the discomfort of
saying stuff that you've beentold not to say and actually,
and actually make a stand foryourself to see if you actually
are with someone who is at least51%.
I'm really glad you're talkingabout this and, yes, I do want
to learn how your body works.

(53:30):
At least test it instead ofassuming that you're doing the
right thing by protecting hisego.
So, as a woman, is what I saidhelpful?
I'd like to know Is thathelpful?

Speaker 1 (53:49):
I really have to be fair in this because I don't
want to say I'm not an ordinarywoman, but I'm a little more
vocal than most, so I'm hopingthat it helps.
I just to be honest, I knowwomen and I know it's all
connected.
We've just been so deeplyingrained to.

(54:09):
You know it's hard for us tospeak up for pay, it's hard for
us to speak up for everything.
And now, with this intimacy, ifwe see, I think it's helpful if
we say that it's all connected.
It's all connected with usloving ourselves.
Part of loving ourselves isloving our body, and a healthy
body is a sexually active bodybecause it's a part of our

(54:30):
physical health and I think, ifwe keep looking at that and put
that in a more of a light forwomen to see it from, this is
this is part of you owning whoyou are and and and you in your
womanhood.
Yes, and for men, I think it hasto be where, if you really want

(54:51):
a pleasurable experience, youhave to be open for feedback on
both sides.
You know, a man should be ableto say to his partner this is
how I please me, and a woman nottake offense to it, because we
say it.
Everyone speak in love andkindness, Because what one
person's body needed you couldbe Toby and I were both married
for a long period of time whatour partners needed, then we may

(55:14):
not need but to be able to,with love and kindness, show up
as our full self and say this isme, this is my body, all of it.
Take it or leave it, but thisis what my body needs.
And for him.
For me, because I love him andI want the ultimate expression
leave that Because I'm honestand transparent.
Then now he's comfortable andtransparent and he knows.

(55:36):
I won't use it against him.
This is not a power dynamic.
This is about us really andtruly loving each other.
I want to have the bestexperience.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
So much of this comes back to just the ultimate need
for self-confidence, right?
I mean and we talk aboutself-confidence in the workplace
, we talk about self-confidencein relationships you have to
feel confident enough that innot only your own self, but to
allow somebody else to give youfeedback that, as you said 49,
you might not like and you mighthave to recognize that.

(56:05):
Hey, you know this isn'tnecessarily just about about me,
so, but what I wanted to askyou because there's obviously is
a physiological piece to this.
Men's sex drives and women'ssex drives are, from what I can
tell from research, quitedifferent.
So as men age, you know we seethere's a decrease.

(56:26):
I think you even mentioned toyourself I'm 60 as well.
You said you were 60.
You know our sex drives tendsto decrease.
Women's sex drive tends to doall kinds of various things
during the course of their lives.
We hear all kinds of jokesabout nursing homes and how
crazy women are, the old ladiesare at nursing homes and all
that kind of stuff.
What you really haven't heardabout that?

(56:46):
No, okay, we're going to do aperch on crazy women in nursing
homes, okay.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
What does it have to do with sex and intimacy at the
nurse's home?

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Because there's a drive difference.
Physiologically, people change.
Men as they get older, slowdown Women as they get older.
Maybe pick up a little bit, andI was going to ask about that.
Oh, I didn't know.
Yeah, you talked about cabbage.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
I can't talk about physiological.
No, I didn't know if you hadsome nursing home data.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Well, let me tell you home stories that make your
hair curl.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
I'm sorry I was lost Go.
Don't worry, I'm sorry, it'sall right.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
So, is physiological issues, an issue to deal with as
well.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
There are.
But I have this rule and myrule is like your body is always
right.
Like your body trumpseverything else.
Everything else like it.
Like.
If a woman, if a woman isjudging her body about, like she
, she, she, she wants to have anorgasm through interperson, it

(57:45):
just what.
It isn't.
No, this is no the body.
The body is like ground truth.
That's like.
That's like your body never,never gets it wrong.
And so you know, as we age,maybe we have.
You know, we don't get erect asoften.
We better know how to havedelicious sex that doesn't
require me to have an erection,or else that's going to be a

(58:06):
gating factor.
I don't really know thestatistics on whether men's
sexual libido drops off morethan women.
I don't know those statistics.
I can tell you for me,something kind of interesting
and amazing, like having mytestosterone drop off hasn't

(58:29):
been a bad thing for me.
It's actually been.
I actually like it, and I'lltell you why.
That might sound crazy, butI'll tell you why.
First of all, the background isI don't have a lot of judgment
about whether I get hard or not.
I'm happy with the amount thatI get hard.
I'm happy with how long ittakes for me to ejaculate.
I don't have judgments aboutthat.
Occasionally I don't have anerection when my partner would

(58:53):
like me to be inside of her, butit's not a big deal.
So that's the background.
But I used to have this likeambient, like when I was next to
a woman or talking to a woman,there was this screaming in my
voice about sexual you know.
Like my body would just lightup and I had to like ignore that

(59:15):
and that little screaming in myvoice, enough to actually put
my attention on this human beingand connect with her in ways
that did.
That weren't about me trying toget into her pants.
That was going on for most ofmy life.
As my, as my testosterone hasdropped off all these skills I
had to quote unquote work on asa man to actually be able to

(59:37):
connect with a woman, a humanbeing to human being, became
natural.
I didn't have that screaming inmy voice and what's happened
with my sex drive is that it isnow responsive.
So when my wife is turned on, Iget turned on.
Like her turn on stokes my turnon on, like when, like her turn

(01:00:02):
on stokes my turn on, and sothere isn't any like, there may
be a like I said there may be alittle bit of.
There may be occasionally likeshe, she, we were both, we both
kind of quote unquote, hoped Iwould get hard and I didn't, and
so it was like, okay, well, Iguess we're done because I trust
my body.
My body is saying no, it doesn'twant to be inside of her today,
and I'm like, okay, my bodydoesn't want to be inside of you
today and I'm like, okay, mybody doesn't want to be inside
of you, that's all we know,there's no arguing with that.

(01:00:22):
And so my sex now is much moreresponsive to her sex.
So when she's lit up, I get litup.
That's my new.
Where my sex drive comes fromis from her.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
That's my personal experience, right my sex drive
comes from is from her.
That's my, that's my personalexperience, right?
So a couple that listens tothis and it kind of piques their
interest, what are some stepsthat they can take to to improve
their, their intimacy, to takethe next step to rekindle that
relationship?

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Okay, have the conversation before the
conversation.
So say hey, I listened to thisepisode.
It got me thinking.
I'd like to talk to you abouthow our sex has been and how it
could be.
Are you interested in havingthat conversation?

(01:01:15):
Sure, I'd love to.
So that's step one have theconversation before the
conversation.
To just open the topic.
Open the conversation, Thenthere might be things that you
know like something you're goingto have to say to your partner
that isn't going to be fun foryou to say and isn't going to be

(01:01:37):
fun for them to hear.
Or, if you're a guy, you knowit might be.
I've been really enjoying oursex and I've been trying to get
you to have more sex with me andyou've been like and I know
you're, you've been kind ofresistant.
I'd like to actually take thepressure off of you and start

(01:02:00):
asking you questions about whatyou like and what you don't like
.
And we're only gonna.
I I made this rule with my,with my wife.
I said from now on, we're onlygoing to do things that feel
good to your body.
I don't care whether I don'tcare whether we're having sex
and I'm like 10 seconds awayfrom from climaxing.

(01:02:20):
If it doesn't feel good to you,we stop.
That's how, that's howdedicated I was, that's how
dedicated I was to let's findout what your body likes.
So as a man, you can say I'mactually interested in in
slowing down a little bit andfinding out what you actually
like.
I have a feeling if we weredoing things you liked, you
might want to do it, and as awoman you can.

(01:02:41):
You can say there's some thingsthat I haven't been totally
honest with you or that I'vebeen kind of keeping to myself.
I know it's probably going tosting, it's not going to feel
good to me either to say it, butcan we have this conversation?
Can we have a conversationthat's more honest than we've
ever had before?
Can we do that and then justsee where it goes?

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, I think it's, and I don't know if it's part of
the climate where people seemto be very hung up about sex in
general.
I mean, I've lived in Europefor several years, I travel back
and forth.
There seems to be a verydifferent stigma here in the
United States when it comes tosex and and and I don't know
what that is and I don't knowwhether we can, you know, trace

(01:03:27):
that back to cultural things.
But but is there?
Is there?
I don't know, and I don't knowif you've had any experience
from an internationalperspective.
Are we just a culture that'shung up about sex?

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
we just a culture that's hung up about sex?
Yeah, yes, the answer to thatis yes, we're we.
We in america are, have allkinds of hang-ups that that are
that like.
I've been to, to parts ofeurope too.
Now I don't want to makeblanket statements, but there is
more kind of mature and relaxedattitude to sex that we could
benefit from if we took some ofthat on.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
For sure, Another point too, because it didn't
even cross my mind until I heardthis.
So, especially for the longest,America was a predominantly
Christian society, you know, butwe still more predominant
religious based society.
With that being said, what youhear and it connect with me when

(01:04:27):
a young lady said this is onanother talk show once she was
like well, if you spend yourwhole life being told sex is bad
, it's the bad, it's the devil,you're not supposed to do it,
it's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad andall of these negative
connotations about sex.
And then they tell you butafter you get married, all
things are lawful.

(01:04:47):
So but no, I think we need tothink about that as society.
I think we really need to thinkabout that.
Because she goes now.
I didn't get married till my40s, so if I remained a virgin
and this particular woman had,how do I turn off 40 years of
this magic snake is gonna killme and that's what the penis was

(01:05:09):
.
It's like oh my god, oh, thesnake stay away from me and then
now all of a sudden, I say I do, and in the middle of the night
you come with this.
You know this serpent and it'strying to attack me and it's
like how do?
I tell my brain and I think wedismiss that and I'm joking, but
I'm being totally serious whenyou know when we wrong something

(01:05:30):
for so long how do you make itright?
how do you then, overnight, likethat I said I do, or whatever
the case may be, and let go ofall of that?
And and now?
Not only is the thing I wastaught to fear, now you're
telling me, as an intimacy coachor a husband or a wife or
whatever relationship is, Ishould enjoy it.
That's psychologically fuckedup.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
I can't think of another word to say yeah, yeah,
this isn't overnight, this isn'tovernight like.
This is.
This is we're going to startthe conversation.
Well, I, I, I tend to work withlong-term committed couples.
That's my favorite.
That's my favorite to work withis people who have real skin in

(01:06:14):
the game and their goal is toactually have their relationship
be good long term.
So this is the start of aconversation.
We are going to spend the restof our lives having this
conversation and and having itget progressively better over
time.
But we're just going to startthe conversation because, oh my

(01:06:43):
god, think about that same thatall for experimentation, you
know, pre-experiment experiment.
I think people should be havingsex like I.
I think that's the only way toreally learn.
But that woman that youdescribed, who has that
deep-seated stuff, is going totake a long, a long time with a
partner who is caring andattentive, and so she can

(01:07:05):
confront that, that snake that'sgoing to attack her over time,
and discover, no, it's not scarylike that, that that's not
going to get healed, that has,or I'll say this that has the
best chance of getting healedover time with a long-term
partner where she actuallycultivates something different.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
And speaking of long-term, if I could add one
more thing I think that that's ahuge relationship issue too is
because we take longevity forgranted.
Meaning when you're in arelationship it was like, oh,
I've been with him five years,10 years, 20.
I know him, I know this womanlike the back of my hand, I know

(01:07:47):
this man like the back of myhand.
That is a lie, because ourbodies are changing through all
of this my body in my 20s, notmy body my 30s, and not my body
and my 40.
And I think if we approach itfrom that saying, let your ego
go and saying you don't know mybody, you know my spirit and you

(01:08:09):
may know my heart, but my bodyand your body like you just
talked about libido and thingsis ever-changing.
So if we can see it from thatperspective, let our egos go and
keep checking in and dowellness check to say and stop
assuming perspective.
Let our egos go and keepchecking in and do wellness
check to say and stop assumingthat you know, oh, I know her, I
know him.
No you don't you know, andthat's when people start faking

(01:08:30):
too, so I think that's a goodway to look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
For the people that I want to get as we start to wrap
up here.
You know I just wanted to talk.
If somebody wants to kind ofstart to self-educate, are there
?
Are there good publications?
You mentioned us an institute.
Are there good websites forpeople to go to to start kind of
?

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
I'll go to ken.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
He does intimacy yeah , but to just start to kind of
do some self-reflection what,what are some of the good tools
or resources out there that areat disposal for either a man or
a woman to start that innerreflection before they have that
difficult question?

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
Yeah, so check out.
I'll name a few places orpeople that I love and learn
from myself.
So check out the GottmanInstitute, g-o-t-t-m-a-n
Institute they're great.
Check out Esther PerelP-O-T-T-M-A-N Institute they're
great.
Check out Esther PerelP-E-R-E-L.
She's amazing in this topic.

(01:09:28):
Check out my blog.
Go to mediumcom and look upCraft of Intimate Coupledom.
You can read all the stuff thatI've been writing about.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
You can read all the stuff that I've been writing
about, so you know there'sdefinitely resources out there
where you can start to learnmore and discover Excellent.
I think it's important, justlike we're now talking about
mental health like never before,and it's a great thing.
I think our physical health has, you know, always been at the
forefront, and this is part ofour physical health too.

(01:10:10):
And reach out to you.
You have great coaching.
I've seen your testimonies.
I went through your stories.
I think you know it's myunderstanding we only get one go
around in this thing calledlife, and so I can't speak to
the afterlife and all that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
I've never been there , if I have I, you know, maybe I
am.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
I know Right, but while we're here, I think we owe
it to ourselves, we owe it toour bodies, we owe it to our
partners to be the best us thatwe can be while we're here.
So you know, we get one ride onthis train.
Let's ride it till the wheelsfall off there you go.
Again thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I appreciate it.
It was a pleasure getting achance to talk to you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Absolutely, absolutely Best of wishes, best
of luck and take care.
Good chatting, yeah, all right,take care.
Good chatting, yeah, all right.
So we perch again.
Take care.
Thanks everybody, bye, be well.