October 30, 2024 • 50 mins
In the first episode of our four-part series, Counting the Cost of Loyalty, we ask some challenging questions: Is your loyalty to a political party truly an expression of your beliefs, or are you following a tradition that may no longer serve you? How often do we align with party lines instead of our values? As America’s political landscape becomes more crowded, diverse, and polarized, it's time to pause and reflect—are we staying loyal for the right reasons or simply out of habit?
We explore how the lure of personalities and the pull of party doctrines can overshadow our convictions. Are we losing sight of what matters most by aligning too closely with labels that may no longer represent us? And how much influence should a political affiliation have over our personal growth and moral compass?
Throughout this episode, we dive into how political tribalism often fuels division and stifles dialogue. Do politicians benefit from keeping us divided? When words like “woke” become weapons to shut down the conversation, who profits and loses? By sharing stories and insights, we highlight how rigid allegiances can limit our potential and even silence us.
We also look at how our values shape our political loyalties. In a world where election cycles breed division and hyperbole, is it possible to focus on issues that transcend financial self-interest, like justice and healthcare? Can we move beyond labels to find common ground and reclaim the true power of our voice?
As you listen, consider this: When was the last time you questioned the cost of your loyalty? Are you ready to break free from the cycle and redefine what it means to be loyal—not to parties, but to the principles that shape who you are and strive to be? Join us as we ask the hard questions, dig deep into the essence of political loyalty, and encourage a perspective beyond partisanship to pursue what truly matters.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tree (00:07):
Good day Perch people.
Thank you for joining us today.
I'm so excited.
I think I mentioned.
What was that.
Toby (00:15):
That's my show of excitement.
Tree (00:17):
Oh, my God, I think I mentioned it's the last podcast,
but if you didn't, this isseason two, season two, episode
two, perch with its new format.
So what I want to do is quicklyjust remind people, first of
all those of you who are new andjoining us for the first time,
(00:39):
thank you, we truly appreciateit.
But Perch is an actionstatement.
It's an acronym.
Perch stands for Pause,evaluate, response to Circumvent
Harm.
So what we're going to do,especially in Season 2, to be
very clear, every show you look,you stare at me like what are
we doing?
I'm waiting to hear this, I'mbated breath.
(01:01):
Oh hush.
Every show is based around thePER, the P-E-R.
So we're going to pause, and wepause when we let you know the
topic and ask you to take amoment before you judge, or you
assume you think you know whatthe show is about Evaluate your
(01:21):
response.
So this is our first everseries and this series is a
four-part series and I'm gonnasay this today's title for last.
But I'll just give, just giveyou a teaser to know what all
the each title of the series is.
So the series title is calledcounting the cost of loyalty.
(01:43):
Why stay true to what hasfailed you, so I'm gonna hop
ahead.
The next episode is about love,when settling becomes a saddle.
The next one is careers and thetitle is it normal to?
Is it normal to commit yourselfto something that doesn't have
(02:04):
the ability to commit to you?
And then religion, when abelief becomes an absolute.
But again, don't dismiss it,don't think it's about religion.
A lot of it is not what youthink it is like.
Today's show, today's topics.
(02:25):
Today is Wednesday, will beexactly less than a week from
voting, and today's topic ispolitical parties.
When the party is over, why areyou sticking around?
This is not listen, listen,listen.
Purge people.
This is not Listen, listen,listen, people.
(02:47):
This is not about what's goingon in our political climate.
I know we're all politics out.
It's not about no, we're notgoing there, toby.
I know we're all politics out.
This is not about RepublicanDemocrat Trump versus Harris.
This is about parties.
So just to make my point, Iwasn't aware of this and maybe
(03:09):
some of you weren't aware.
Did you know that currentlyhere in America, there are 17
active political parties?
Toby (03:17):
And I never miss a party.
Tree (03:18):
So you don't even go to party.
You don't even go Whatever.
There are 17 active politicalparties.
Of course, we only know themajor two parties for the
majority of us, and then thesmaller parties.
But let me just tell you, justfyi, in case you didn't know the
democratic party is the largestparty in america.
It has 45.9 million members andfound and it's the oldest party
(03:44):
in america, founded in 1828.
The republican party is thesecond largest party, is 35.7
members and it was founded in1854.
Now I'm going to put thisinformation.
I'm not going to go down allthe details of the 17 parties,
but I quickly want to mentionthem.
(04:04):
So you like what?
The Libertarian Party,independent party of Oregon, the
Socialist Party, party ofsocialism and liberation, the
Alliance Party, the AmericanSolidarity Party, the
working-class party, the forward, the Vermont Progressive Party,
(04:26):
american Independent Party,green Party, constitutional, no
labels, working families,liberal and natural law parties.
That's 17.
They're all currently activeand, honestly, most of them were
founded in 2000,.
A couple in 1990s.
So that and before I hand thisover to Toby, what I found
(04:50):
fascinating in the two partiesthat are the most recognizable
parties in America each partyhas seven ideologies attached to
them.
So what does that mean?
So I'm going to tell you.
Sobertarian conservativesstress individual freedoms,
(05:26):
minimum government and a freemarket principle.
The Christian conservativesprioritize religions, religion,
moral values and policies.
The fiscally conservativeideologies focus on reducing
government spending.
Am I boring you To death?
Okay, so I'm going to move on,because I don't want Toby to
(05:48):
fall asleep.
The populace and national.
Toby (05:49):
I think I'm just here for eye candy today, so you
definitely are not here for eyecandy.
Tree (05:53):
Matter of fact, go to sleep until.
Toby (05:54):
I wake you back up when it's your turn.
Tree (05:56):
Perfect and the national conservatives.
So the seven.
I won't go into them because Idon't want to bore.
Toby is a progressive, moderateliberal.
Social democracy, blue dogDemocrats, labor Democrats Now
you're barking JesusEnvironmentalists and civil
(06:16):
rights.
I thought it was the time, itwas good to say when we hold
true to such values, do werecognize that a lot has changed
from when we initially enjoyedthe party and the reason I'm
doing this?
In this order, this series.
Trust me, if you guys watch theseries from beginning to end,
(06:41):
every topic is all connected andwe're going to bring it home.
And at the end of each episode,before we end, now we have
Perch Peak, but we'll take amoment to reflect on what we
discussed.
So please, please, please stayto the end.
So that's me Now that you canwake up now.
Toby (06:57):
It's my turn already.
Wow, it seems like it's onlybeen okay.
Hey, good morning.
Good morning, good afternoon,morning good evening we don't
know.
Members of the perch partypower to the people so you woke
up just to say that yeah, youlost me when you started talking
about dinosaur bones okay, sopaleontology isn't that with
(07:20):
dinosaur, dinosaur bones, right?
Tree (07:22):
yeah, so I was.
Yeah, it'll be on the site.
You can Google, you canresearch, you can do whatever
Great.
Toby (07:28):
How are you feeling today?
How are you doing I?
Tree (07:30):
am doing.
Well, I know you're gettingover a bug.
I am the bug.
Toby (07:35):
It was miserable Anyway.
Tree (07:38):
I'm going to break out my violence.
Toby (07:39):
Perfect, that's right.
Plain hurt today.
She figured she could attack meon my political beliefs and
political party and all that.
But anyway, good morning orgood afternoon.
Tree (07:49):
You said that and it could be afternoon.
It could be afternoon.
Good evening.
We're getting ready for thehome.
Guys, it's time.
Toby (07:56):
What a lovely home.
Tree (07:57):
It's time.
Toby (07:57):
Yeah, well, we're closing on Halloween, so this is my
favorite time of the year.
Okay, so this is my favoritetime of the year.
Okay, are we going to talkabout Polly?
I love Jell-O too, by the way.
Oh man, I had to take a littlebit.
We were getting heavy there.
I felt like I was sitting inPolly's side class again.
I was like did I take notes onthis?
But no, I didn't.
(08:18):
I didn't, no.
Tree (08:20):
I really do, because when you throw a topic like that out
there, I really do, because whenyou throw a, topic like that
out there it's good to give somecontext.
And did you know that therewere 17 parties?
Toby (08:29):
Who knew?
No, I'm serious.
No, I actually didn't.
It's funny.
Tree (08:32):
And they're active parties .
These aren't Well active.
Toby (08:35):
The left-handed Ukrainian political party of South Oregon.
Tree (08:38):
Well, most of them have thousands or not hundreds of
thousands, some a million rightand a million members at a
million members progressiveparty of vermont.
That's probably like six guysin a vfw hall, but anyway, I
guess the greater point, too,toby, is when you say this is if
you are a person who subscribeto a party and say and and loyal
, yeah, how do you define whatyou're being loyal?
Toby (08:59):
well, that comes back to what we talked about before is
it's it's really hard to beloyal to something that's not
loyal back to you, right?
I mean, that's the wholepremise behind what we're
talking about and the fact thatso many people look at political
parties and they give them thisblind loyalty, as if somehow
this party is going to love themback.
And it's a fascinating study,and I know we're not going to
(09:22):
use the T-rump word here duringor not during the course of our
conversation, but, um, thatphenomenon in and of itself is
fascinating if you study it andand how it really did create an
upheaval in our politicalstructure.
And there's a lot ofconversation about excuse me,
around things like tribalism andabout blind loyalty and and the
(09:43):
need for people to belong.
So, um, there's someinteresting stuff.
Tree (09:47):
I've got about 600 pages I'll read to you here today oh,
we're not doing that yeah, so um, yeah, but I, but I I do want
to say, with that too, it'sfascinating to me and I think it
is important and I know thismay freak some people out to say
, I think it is important toquestion loyalty.
That's why I did a whole serieson on loyalty, because, um,
(10:10):
that's a high value when you,when you're loyal to something,
what does that mean and what areyou committing to?
And, like you said, how do youcommit to something that
literally, in its existence, hasthe inability to commit back to
you?
That's almost kind of insane, Ithought.
But even within that, I thoughtit was important to say, um,
(10:32):
what we don't know is and Ihaven't seen it, and maybe it's
a work in progress with theseseven ideologies I'm wondering,
from a, a party lens, how itlays out.
Because when you say, like, whatpercentage of democrats you
know are blue dog, whatpercentage of you know?
(10:53):
Uh, and that's because thiscame out, because a lot of them,
the, the, the MAGA movement inpolitical parties, there is no
MAGA ideology, but if you lookat the paleo conservative
definition, it's MAGA.
So when, when you're loyal tosomething, is the total party
(11:16):
being represented by somethingthat you don't support, value or
believe in?
So that's why it's important.
Even though it seems like a lotof conversation is going on, I
don't think people are takingthe time to explain loyalty.
We're just saying well, you'reloyal to a party and I've been a
(11:37):
Republican all my life.
I've been a Democrat and I'mgoing to die that I'm like, but
never when it, when it is nolonger what you knew it to be
when you first joined the party.
Toby (11:46):
You know this as well as I do.
I always kind of I won't evensay criticize, but I always
label Tree as an idealist and wehave conversations, like
everybody does, around politics,especially this time of year,
as it relates to things like whydoes somebody do this?
I mean, we watch the primariesand this person just attacks
(12:08):
this person and then threemonths later, they
wholeheartedly, full-throatedlyendorse them and, without fail,
tree comes to me and says howcan they do that?
How is that possible?
And I'm like it's politicsAgain.
There's no loyalty other than toa brand, to a party, other than
to a brand you know, to a party, and these people know that
their lifeblood, their future,is driven by the fact that they
(12:34):
stay in that party.
That's why so few people moveparties.
That's why when you see a TulsiGabbard or you see, you know
various folks who actuallychange parties, it's very rare
because that's almost committingpolitical suicide.
So there is no loyalty on theirlevel.
It's just well, sorry, let merephrase it there's nothing but
loyalty on their part.
Blindly speaking, they justfollow it and you can look at it
(12:54):
all over the place.
If you want to talk about theTrump phenomenon for two seconds
.
He's not a Republican, he's apopulist.
Tree (13:01):
We don't.
Toby (13:02):
He's a populist that person whose name shall not be
repeated and I'm not talkingabout Valdemort is a populist.
He's not a Republican.
The problem is, that personwhose name we will not talk
about is so popular that theRepublican Party has gone.
Well, shit, I guess we'll hitchour wagons to this guy for the
next four years and then weworry about it after that, and
then you'll get on to the peoplethat are truly Republicans.
(13:24):
We worry about it after that,and then you'll get on to the
people that are trulyrepublicans.
Uh, you know whether that's, uh, the desantis, or a rubio, or,
or you know some of these otherfolks, but he's, he is not so to
go back to the topic, when itcomes down to yes, because?
Tree (13:38):
yes, because we're not talking about individuals.
Toby (13:41):
We're talking about the fact that a populist was put
into a Republican mode becausethat was the most popular choice
at this point, and blindly, theRepublicans gave up a lot of
their values to follow somebodywho was a populist.
So let's talk about so, butthen you.
Tree (13:56):
So I think you are making my point.
You're making my point withsaying so.
So what you're is the.
The loyalty is technically notto a party, and let me explain
why so because I don't knowwhere you're going.
Okay, where am I going?
Toby (14:14):
um, no, please, no, no no, let's do this for the next 45
minutes no, please, no, please,oh, my god.
Tree (14:20):
So all right.
So let me tell you go toby.
Toby (14:26):
All I was going to say is there are a few times in the
history of our country where apersonality has has over uh, has
overcome or surpassed the party.
Normally, the party drives the,the, the agenda, and they drive
the candidates and they drivethe whole mission.
What happened here was wereached a very interesting
(14:46):
critical mass in our countrywhere there was such a high
level of dissatisfaction within,notably, the Republican Party,
but also within the DemocraticParty, where a person came out
of nowhere and said I'm for you,I'm for the small people, we're
going to make America greatagain, we're going to do all
these things and really tappedinto an emotional nationalism
(15:06):
that nobody else had done before.
Now, all of a sudden, theRepublicans are like we don't
want this person.
And I remember when thisparticular person first started
to show up on the scene andeverybody's like this is a
punchline, it's not going tohappen, it's going to go away.
Then, well, we were wrong.
Tree (15:22):
I apologize for a few points.
Well, we were wrong.
I apologize for a few points.
Toby (15:25):
We weren't talking about individuals.
We were talking about a party.
We were talking about anideology, a populist movement.
Tree (15:30):
But my point being which you said you knew what I was
going to say, so I let youfinish my sentence, and you
weren't even in the ballparkShocking you missed it by that
much.
My point being I almost thinkit's lazier of us as society to
even mention party loyalty,because your party is now not
(15:52):
defined.
So what are you loyal to?
So it can't be a party.
It can't If you have sevenideologies.
What is your party?
Toby (16:04):
Do you think most people know those seven ideologies?
Tree (16:05):
that's my whole point right that's what I'm saying.
So we just we've been sayingparty loyalty out of habit, out
of history, out of not out ofdishonesty, so because there is
no party loyalty okay becausewhat?
What is your party before you?
Toby (16:22):
did your research.
If I had asked you a simplequestion in terms of what
differentiates a Republican froma Democrat, what would you say?
One or two punchlines.
If I'm a Democrat, what do Istand for?
If I'm a Republican, what do Istand for?
Tree (16:37):
You're asking the wrong person.
And you know why you're askingthe wrong person it's because
the lines have been blurred forme on both for a long time
Speaker.
1, so I would never consider Iwouldn't, I am not ever going to
put a label on me.
I'm not and I know that, butlet me but let me, but let me.
(16:59):
Can I finish?
But what I know is this is whatwe do, because everyone was
like, well, you're a Democrat,because people know my values,
because I'm a person whoactually lives my values.
I don't.
I, I'm a person who actuallylives my values.
I, I care about my neighbor.
I try to cheat people fairly.
(17:21):
I care about the greater andwe're going to jump to the see.
This is exactly what I'mtalking about.
Why do you?
Why do you feel the need tolabel?
Why do you feel the need tolabel?
Because I was highly offendedthat a party decided to be the
party of Christ.
That that was offensive to me,because God, if you are a
(17:50):
Christian and you believe in God, god is the God of all.
He said that he's the God ofall, so how did you decide that
it's a guard god of your party?
So does that mean that alibertarian, a green and all
this, we?
You have christians in in allparties.
Toby (18:03):
There are four thousand other religions out there for
them to choose from.
Tree (18:06):
They could choose 3999 but that belongs to one party.
But this is my point on all ofit.
And and then on the Democraticside it was like well, what do
you stand for?
And I have an issue with theDemocrats having aversion to say
the with, you know, in areligious environment.
(18:27):
So does that make meconservative?
Toby (18:40):
I don't.
Tree (18:41):
I don't attach that's my point that none of this makes
sense to me.
I don't attach religion topolitics, I don't agree with it.
So I am who I am, I believe whatI believe.
I call strike strikes, I callballs balls, and I and I will.
So when you say values, what doyou believe in?
(19:02):
When it's the majority of yourparty, the loudest voices are
something you're anti, for thesake of loyalty, you can't say
no, you can't say that's not whowe are, or you have to stay
committed, because all of it iswell if you look at other
countries.
Toby (19:22):
There are other countries where they have actually
fragmented their politicalparties to be much more
ideologically specific, if youwill be, if you will, and what
that creates is a real challengeto ever reach a majority for
the government to rule.
So what we've done here is kindof this dummying down.
And you're absolutely right, Ijoke about it and I kid, but the
(19:44):
reality is nobody.
Very few people are true blue,very few people are true red.
We're somewhere in between andwhat you have to do is you have
to kind of make some choicesbased around that.
But there are some ideologicalprinciples that have kind of
changed over the years and younamed a couple of them that the
(20:04):
Democratic Party tends to favora larger government Good or bad,
I'm not putting but a largergovernment and more services for
its people.
Government and more servicesfor its people.
And the assumption is that aDemocratic party would say that
the government should take careof more of the needs of its
citizenry.
There's nothing wrong with thatapproach whatsoever.
(20:26):
And then the Republicans,historically, have said smaller
government, leave more in theprivate sector, allow private
citizens to take care of eachother, requiring obviously a
little bit more stuff to takeplace outside of the government.
But one says, let's do a lotfor you, the other one says, do
less for you.
One tends to be a little bitmore financially or fiscally
(20:48):
conservative, the other onetends to be a little bit more
fiscally aggressive, but afterthat as you said, even at the
surface, that that, that that initself is a fallacy.
Tree (20:59):
And it's a fallacy because it's it's a system of picks and
chooses, meaning one party cansay smaller government, but
they're OK, we'll have thelargest military in the world
because that's one of the thingsthe government is responsible
to do.
Yeah, no, but you did.
I not say picks and chooses andI was like, but because one
(21:22):
party, the other party had saidat one time, well, the
government should be responsibleto make sure that we all have
health care.
And then they say, well, that'snot the government's position,
right, but then it's stilltaking care of its people.
It's picks and chooses is whatI'm saying Right?
Because if you are, if amilitary is set for and everyone
(21:44):
agrees that it's the governmentresponsibility to keep people
safe.
Toby (21:49):
Country safe.
Tree (21:49):
That's why keeping people safe is keeping a country safe.
Correct.
The people make up the country.
Toby (21:55):
Well, but I don't want to pick and choose.
Okay.
Okay, the local government isinvolved with local it's for
local enforcement.
The government only has likefour responsibilities.
Let me finish my point, Okay.
Tree (22:07):
Excuse me, let me just finish my point.
You can go to town.
So if part of the military isto keep the country safe and
keeping a country safe keeps thepeople safe essentially part,
and so that is, just from amilitary perspective, part of
(22:27):
the government, and we saw it.
That's why COVID was a mess foreveryone, because the world was
experiencing something at thesame time.
Part of safety is health.
Health is part of safety and wedecided to pick and choose what
safety looks like.
So you're saying the governmentcan protect us from the enemies
(22:50):
outside of how?
I forgot the exact way theConstitution lays it out in a
detail it's foreign, domestic.
Well then, that's thegovernment's responsibility.
But you know, some of theseepidemics and they're going to
keep happening and these viruses, it's things that aren't
keeping us safe and aren'tkeeping us protected.
(23:11):
And you see, when there's anepidemic, the government had to
step in and try to help.
And we failed.
So I'm just saying it's asystem.
Toby (23:19):
And we failed.
Yes, we failed initially,because that's a church for
another day.
Tree (23:25):
No, but I don't even see how it's debatable, because that
was the one thing we were kindof agreeing on when I said we
failed.
We didn't have an active systemin place and it took us a while
to get it together to getmedicine to people.
We all had this experiencetogether.
Toby (23:41):
I'm not making up something that didn't happen and
I'm not trying to get back ontopic, because that's a topic
for another day right, I'm nottrying to get into.
Tree (23:50):
I'm just saying when these parties say they have values
and they say they stand forsomething, even the values
sometimes these parties say theyhave values and they say they
stand for something even thevalues sometimes these parties
say they stand for arereflective.
That's my point.
So the whole point of this isare you really paying attention
to what you are being loyal toand when in your loyalty?
(24:11):
When do you recognize it change?
That's why I did a series,because I don't want to go into,
because that goes intorelationships, love and
everything else we really needto evaluate.
Don't take anything for granted.
Toby (24:28):
Don't have blind loyalty and be honest when this no
longer represents me well andwhat you're seeing, and I mean
there's a lot of similaritiesbetween the topics you've chosen
here.
But the reason that that therepublican party specifically is
in such turmoil right now isthey.
Many people believe therepublican party has left them.
(24:48):
You know, then, that's whyyou've got these, these spinoffs
, like the constitutionalistswho turn around and say whoa,
whoa, whoa the republican, whoa,whoa.
The Republican Party stood forfour basic values.
You mentioned them.
The government should printmoney, the government should
make sure that the marketplaceis equitable and fair you know,
fair labor and employmentpractices and work environment,
(25:11):
and then protect the country.
And if I'd studied my civics, Icould probably tell you the
fourth one too.
But, by the way, I took thetest to become a citizen and I
almost kind of sort of passed.
Tree (25:22):
He is a citizen, please be clear you can't just say I took
the test.
Toby (25:25):
I took the test.
Yeah, she gave it to meyesterday and some of their
questions were wrong, but I gotthem right.
Tree (25:32):
So Toby is a citizen.
I just brought up a point.
Toby (25:35):
If you took the test, would the average American be
able to pass?
It's not easy.
You ought to try, go online andtake a look.
But anyway, all I'm getting atis there's a large portion of
the Republican Party dare sayyou know citizenry who says wait
a minute, the Republican Partyhas gotten hijacked and this
isn't what we stand for.
But it doesn't really matter,because the Republican Party
just wants to rule, just likethe Democratic Party just wants
(25:59):
to rule.
Tree (26:00):
So what does that say about us?
Toby (26:02):
Well, it says a lot.
Tree (26:03):
But why be loyal to something that you are making my
point?
Toby (26:08):
No, that's what I'm trying to do.
Tree (26:11):
Unloyal to a party who, at its core, focuses on ruling and
leading, opposed to being whatthey.
Toby (26:22):
I'd love to read something to you if I could.
So I'm going to put my glasseson so I can look really smart.
No, really, so I can see Aprofessor of psychiatry at Wayne
State University and I wouldlove to pronounce his name, but
it's really difficult, so I'mjust going to say this
particular professor assistantprofessor wrote this piece and
he attributes it to tribalism,and it's a very interesting
argument.
He says tribalism is thebiological loophole that many
(26:45):
politicians have banked on for along time, tapping into our
fears and tribal instincts.
Some examples are Nazism, theKu Klux Klan, religious wars and
the Dark Ages.
The typical pattern is to givethe other humans a label
different than us and say theyare going to harm us or our
resources, and to turn the othergroup into a concept.
(27:06):
It does not necessarily have tobe race or nationality, which
are used very often.
It can be real or imaginarydifferences Liberals,
conservatives, middle Easterners, white men, the right, the left
, muslim, jews, christians,sikhs the list goes on and on.
When building tribal boundariesbetween us and them, some
(27:28):
politicians have managed verywell to create virtual groups of
people that do not communicateand hate each other without even
knowing each other.
Oh, glass is stuck.
So I I think that's a reallyinteresting statement that says
that they have done a masterfuljob of creating us into these
(27:49):
tribes, as this particularprofessor indicated, and
creating fear and diversityamong us, and and pointing out
where we're different ratherthan where we're the same, so
that they can create anger.
Tree (28:01):
Anger creates action and then action creates well and and
it's and I there's nothing thatthe articles say stated that I
didn't believe in.
But I would add one more umnuance to that that they've so
even weaponizing woke, soliterally to other eyes, to
(28:23):
another category.
Now there's the woke people,and so here's another label, and
so let's put these people overhere.
Essentially, woke came from aterm in the African-American
community we've been usingforever and ever for decades,
and woke meant to to what youshould do, pay attention, be
(28:46):
aware, be informed.
So now they start banning booksand said well, these are woke
books.
They trying to tell you about ahistory you don't know anything
about.
These are.
So the labels continue, thedivision continues, and part of
that is the, the miseducation,and the information is rampant.
(29:06):
Because now if you take asnippet of something that's
shown on a commercial whichsounds like, oh my God, that's
what this person believes, god,that's what this person believes
, and that's what that personbelieves, they take a snippet,
take it out of context and thenthey tell you don't read about
it, just trust what I say.
Don't you know?
This is something that they'recreating, this is the, the woke
(29:30):
people, and don't look into itfor yourself.
And all of this from partyloyalty, all of it.
We need to be students.
If you are loyal to something,I would advise strongly.
You damn sure know what you'rebeing loyal to and what you're
representing.
Toby (29:46):
The other thing, though and I'm not saying it happened
in this particular case,although I would contend it did,
and maybe we'll have a podcaston the woke movement, but what?
Tree (29:56):
tends to happen, I don't know.
Every time I hear that I justget frustrated.
Toby (29:59):
I know, I know but it's not what it started out being,
and one of the examples I'mgoing to give is when I was in
college, I considered myself alibertarian, and the main reason
being is anybody who watchesthese podcasts.
I believe very much inself-regulation.
Whatever I do with my life, aslong as it doesn't impact your,
I should be able to do.
As long as it doesn't break alaw, I should be able to do
(30:21):
whatever I want to do, as longas it doesn't impact on your
ability to do whatever you wantto do within the constraints of
the law.
So I always felt like well,that's exactly what the
Libertarian Party says.
And you start to listen to theplatform and they say things
like that Should I have to weara seatbelt?
Only if I want to?
Now there's a whole argumentabout if I get in an accident,
who's going to pay for it.
But you know, if I ride amotorcycle, should I have to
(30:42):
wear a helmet?
That should be a personaldecision.
Now you can argue that as muchas you like, and I'm good with
that.
I'm going along with this andI'm buying it.
The candidate for theLibertarian Party and he's going
down this road and he's going,and you should have the right to
choose this and you should havethe right to choose this.
And then he gets to the pointwhere he says and if you want to
buy an Abrams tank, you shouldbe able to go do that.
(31:02):
And I was like whoa, we justwent a long way, from my wearing
a bicycle helmet to going tobuy a military grade assault
weapon, you know, and all of asudden we jumped to that level
but can we pause right there?
Tree (31:13):
yeah, this is why perch that is literally the antithesis
of perch.
I don't understand.
Perch is gray.
The, the whole ideology ofperch is great meaning.
There's always nuance.
Nothing is ever black and white.
Toby (31:31):
There's always a shade of gray.
Tree (31:33):
This is why I don't get party loyalty, Because when you
decide well, I once was this,but now I'm this.
And I once was a liberal andnow I'm a Democrat.
And I once was a Democrat, nowI'm a liberal Republican, now
I'm this.
Why, why pick a label?
And Toby, you call me anidealist.
(31:53):
I am one to my core and that'sone label now, I guess.
Toby (31:57):
And it's not a bad thing.
Let me just finish my point,okay.
Tree (32:00):
Because I like a good idea .
I think we, in order for us tobe a society that's ever
evolving, we have to be eternalstudents and always looking for
a better way, a better way.
But if you stay loyal to aparty, the party is trying to
(32:23):
define a way.
The party is trying to define apath and say this is who we are
and that's why people haveproblem with religion and
everything else.
I don't want to get into theother topics because it says, in
order for you to be like me, apart of this group, a part of
this party, this that these arecore principles, this is what we
(32:44):
represent and if you can followthis, I'm like, but I am the
type of person I don't likebuffets for real, like, for real
.
I know there's choices, but youknow I don't like things as
being picked over.
That's just me.
And and how this tie into aparty is saying I like to pick
and choose, I like choice, Ilike to say this works for me,
(33:06):
this doesn't, this work, and I Icannot subscribe to a party
because I am never going toagree with anybody on this
planet.
Even that's why I struggle.
Toby (33:18):
And the only reason I call you an idealist.
Well, first of all you are, andI think it's a wonderful thing.
The challenge is when it comesto governing people.
You know this.
We're members of a homeownersassociation.
We get 10 people in the room.
We have 11 different ideas.
It's really hard to bringpeople together to agree on
almost anything.
The color of cocktail napkins.
I can't agree on.
(33:39):
So now we're trying to run acountry and the complexity
inherently involved with that,and so we dummy down things to
such a great extent.
I don't have a problem withthat as much as I do.
How government has chosenchosen is probably the wrong
word but how government dictatestheir control over people,
Because happy people arequestioning people.
(34:00):
If we're happy, we ask a lot ofquestions.
Why are there no term limits?
Why is it that we allow this tohappen?
Why do we let this occur?
So what?
The government-.
Tree (34:10):
And it's not unpatriotic, it is not.
Toby (34:14):
It is not In fact.
We should all question a lot ofthis, absolutely.
But what the governments willdo and it's very clear,
interesting articles, you'llread it everywhere.
Governments manage by fear.
They have to manage by fearbecause fear is such a strong
emotion.
If you're scared of something,you'll toe the line.
If you're not scared ofsomething, you ask a lot of
questions and Tree and I willhave long conversations on our
(34:37):
drives and we'll say we havemore in common, politically
speaking, than we do apart.
But you'd never know it bylistening to the press, by
reading social media.
We are so far apart, we are sodifferent and that's complete
hogwash, it's absolute garbage.
But what happens is thepolitical parties drive that
stake between us because theywant to create division, they
(34:57):
want to create anger.
They want me to be mad at Treebecause she's liberal and they
want Tree to be mad at mebecause I don't care about the
poor.
And that's a bunch of horseshitand that is a technical term.
You can quote me.
But the idea is that that'swhat happens and there's all
kinds of interesting articles.
I'm not going to get into greatdetail, but there's one here
about how political leadersstrategically manipulate us and
(35:20):
they do it through fear, they doit through divisiveness, they
do it through language, they doit through emotion, and the most
strong emotion is fear, fear.
Tree (35:31):
And I'm always, always going to vote.
My people fought for this right.
It was not freely given to usand I would not allow anyone to
disclose my vote.
So, with me being an idealist,I really have to take time and
one thing I'm grateful for shoutout to my daughters.
(35:51):
They do the same thing.
They take their vote serious.
So when it comes time to vote,we, in advance, go through, try
to say you know, know what'sgoing on locally.
Kind of fell short that wemoved here, but try to say
what's going on locally.
Before I vote for a judge, Ilook at some of the cases
they've tried before I vote foranything, because it has to line
(36:15):
up with what I believe andthat's it.
I need to see your work.
So your your lip service.
It goes in one ear and comesout the other when it comes time
to what have you stood for,what laws have you put for, what
have you supported?
Now I know I agree with you, soI, I more so, agree with you on
that side and that's how I voteand let it go.
(36:37):
Because I can listen to and Tobyknows this, I listen to a lot
of podcasts, a lot ofinformation all day long and I
will agree with people likeJordan Peterson.
Toby cares for him more than Ido, but I listen to him on a lot
of things and I like the waythat he articulated religion.
A lot of religious people maynot, but I'm like, I listen and
(37:01):
I listen for you.
Not soundbites, not.
Does it make sense to me, doesit live up to the values in my
belief system and how I seethings, and that's it.
I don't have to.
I don't know who told us thatwe have to agree.
Yeah, we do not have to agree.
You have every right to feelyour feels, believe what you
(37:22):
believe and eat, and especiallyin things like politics and
religion I'm amazed that peopleare told let's talk about
medicine for a second.
Toby (37:32):
You're told you have to self-advocate.
Nobody's going to worry aboutyour health more than you should
, and I know a number of peoplewho have had tragedies in their
lives and all kinds of issuesand all of a sudden they become
advocates of their own health.
What does my EKG look like?
What is my blood pressure?
Is that good or bad?
And they advocate and then theygo blindly follow a party and
you're like wait a minute, youadvocated for your health.
(37:54):
Why don't you advocate for yourown intelligence?
Tree (37:57):
that is a great but that's a great analogy.
But think about what you justsaid and that's why we're having
a show that actually lovelyties.
Thank you it in.
I know you had no clue, you didthat came from nowhere, pulled
it out absolutely the far crackanyway.
Um, sorry, the far crack, anyway, sorry.
(38:19):
What that says is you hit theneedle on the head Like we go to
the doctor trusting the doctorhas our best interest at heart.
You do what the doctor saysuntil you realize now my health
is failing and I am literallysaying that I know something is
wrong because I know my body soand I am not taking serious.
Now that I'm not taking serious, serious, I have to be my own
(38:41):
advocate because my health isfailing and they don't seem to
care.
Oh, that's so good, that ispolitics, that is what I'm
saying.
So what I'm saying to you is weare seeing this system is
broken and our parties that wesubscribe to believe in are
failing us.
But until it, personally and II kind of have to I'm not gonna
(39:06):
say you, you've kind of appliedthis to you know, when it comes
down to parties like yeah, theysay that, are they really going
to do?
it they say that, but are theyreally going to do it?
But my thing is why are youwaiting for that person to fail
you in a certain manner whentheir actions and their words
are already failing?
That's good.
We can end a podcast, right now.
Toby (39:27):
Look at so many, so many companies right now where, all
of a sudden, the shareholdersare starting to take over.
Why is the ceo making millionsof dollars and the company's
losing money?
You're starting to see a lot ofactivism.
Well that's getting into thecareers All.
I'm getting at is activism isoccurring in the private sector,
why isn't activism occurring inthe public sector?
Why aren't we looking andsaying why have these fat cat
(39:49):
politicians made so much moneyand millions of dollars?
There's no way that they shouldhave made that kind of money,
and yet we elect them over andover again.
So we're the jackasses here.
We are the ones who are beingmade to look the fool, because
we continue to reelect thesepeople who don't represent our
interests, who aren't listeningto us, who don't recognize that
we have more things in commonthan we have apart, and we're
(40:11):
not looking to harmonize, we'relooking to polarize and we're
separating ourselves and, as aresult of that, everything you
read, you go on social media,you go on the press.
You've got CNBC, who's liberal,and you've got Fox, who's
conservative, and we've lost ourcontrol of news.
Tree (40:28):
We now have nothing but opinion, and so until we
self-advocate, we're going tocontinue to get this slop but,
but, but, and I just want to inin that regard, we, we are
self-advocating from a mediaperspective because those big
media, we have now more podcasts, more information than we've
(40:53):
ever had before.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm just saying from a
meter perspective, but so manyof them.
Toby (40:58):
You and I have talked about this Tree and I have
talked about where Perch shouldgo, and we don't want to just
recycle the slop that's outthere.
And I'm going to criticize alot of podcasts right now.
They take a clip from thecurrent presidential debates or
from a current presidentialcandidate and then they just
(41:18):
pile on it.
That's not podcasting.
If all you're doing isparroting a statement that
you've heard some other talkingad put together, that's not
thought leadership, that's notintelligence, that's just
fanning a flame.
So all of you who do that andyou get thousands and millions
of likes you're just an emptyvessel.
I don't care what you guysthink about it, you're worthless
(41:41):
, you're worthless Dead to notsee us taking that turn today.
Turned a little ugly there forsay come back, good, now.
Tree (41:49):
Did you get it out though, cuz I don't know come back.
Toby (41:51):
I hope that's fast Wake up , mummy, you got it Okay, though
, because I don't ever know howto come back.
I hope that's right.
Tree (41:55):
wake up, mummy, you got it okay we're good, I'm gonna
blame it on a cold man's people.
They're kicking it that that'sexactly what I'm gonna say and I
honestly had a point.
And then, when you startslamming other podcasters,
create.
Toby (42:09):
Create good content.
Please Back to you, jim.
Tree (42:19):
Toby, I really had a thought, that one, and you
really shocked me, and youreally, you know I normally
still my toes with you.
Toby (42:28):
I don't know.
Tree (42:29):
But that one just took me.
Toby (42:30):
I forgive.
I'll be over here drinkingwater if you need anything.
Tree (42:35):
Okay, and I was Pause.
Toby (42:38):
Evaluate.
Tree (42:40):
To circumvent harm.
So one thing before we wrap andget towards the end.
Another thing I want to topicis voting in your own interests.
That's a term that's alwaysdrove me crazy as well, because
what I know what the implicationis that that that typically
(43:03):
implies when they say you'revoting against your interests
connotation it's like you know.
So if you make X amount ofmoney and one party is known to
be more partial to someone whomakes less than you, that's how
your interest is.
It's asinine Cause.
(43:24):
First of all, who are you totell me what my interest is?
Number one you have no ideawhat I'm interested in.
Number one.
Number two it's my values,values.
So you're voting your values,and what that tells me is
whoever coined this term and thepeople that use it because I've
heard it used to towards meseveral times their value is
(43:47):
their, their, their pocketbook.
You know their wallet, theirfinances, and that's it I.
And it's so hard for people tofathom that not everyone values
money but it is a personaldecision.
Toby (44:00):
We talked about this a little bit yesterday and and I
believe um and this is going toshock you as a republican, I
believe in universal health care.
I think everybody should havehealth care.
I also believe we should takecare of literally all american
citizens and provide them basichuman rights, and human rights
today are different than theywere in the 1700s, and I think
we need to evolve toward that.
That being said, if thegovernment came and said we are
(44:23):
going to create universal healthcare in this country and the
good news, popular citizens, isit's only going to cost you all
$20,000 a year more, now we'reall going to take a deep breath
and some of us, to Tree's point,will say $20,000, that's a
small price to pay to make sureour country's healthier.
And then other people mightlook at that and go $20,000?
(44:45):
Are you out of your mind?
Why is it going to cost $20,000?
That's absurd.
And now, what's my magic numberversus Tree's magic number?
Probably very different.
Would I pay an extra $1,000 ayear to make sure everybody was
insured?
I think I would.
Would I pay $10,000?
I probably wouldn't.
Now, does that make me a cold,callous person?
It might, but to say thateverybody has the same values or
(45:10):
is driven by the same, as yousaid, is absolutely wrong.
Tree (45:13):
Agreed.
So I'm cheap before I'm silly,before I bring this in any end.
Do you have I?
Have about 63 pages and we'renot doing that, so wrap it up,
put a bowl all right, you wantme to?
Toby (45:32):
well, the only thing that I would say is that obviously
we're we everybody every everyfour years, we talk about this
being the election of allelections and this will change
the world, and the rhetoric andthe vitriol and all that, sorry
guys, I mean for what it's worth.
It's just another election.
It's.
The sun is going to come up onthat Wednesday morning and the
(45:55):
world will go back to normal andyou may have a crazy person in
place, you may not have a crazyperson in place, you may have
somebody who's worthless inplace.
It's, it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, good
people will, will make sure willprevail.
Craziness has happened in thisworld forever and I don't care
what anybody says when they saythis is the first time that
we've ever bullshit.
(46:16):
It's never the first time we'vedone anything in this in this
world before you know, we canovercome any of this stuff.
So these people who want to runoff to canada and never do you
know, please, you know, let'sjust, let's just be realistic
about this.
It's a single election, it's asingle person.
It doesn't, at the end of theday, really matter all righty.
Tree (46:38):
And those are the words of toby and his opinion.
Good toby, all right.
So before we close, I reallywant to get to um today's perch
peak, and it's just a statementof what this particular episode
has meant for me as I reflect onit.
(46:59):
So, as we reach today's PerchPeak, let us pause to consider
what it means to stay loyal tosomething that may no longer
align with who we are, that mayno longer align with who we are.
Political parties Democrat,republican, libertarian and
beyond each carry decades, evencenturies, of history.
(47:21):
They represent ideologies,identities and traditions, but
at the heart of all of it, theydon't fully know us.
They don't know the intricaciesof our lives or our values that
shape our decision.
This reminds me of somethingfrom my own life, a moment that
(47:41):
shaped my views on labels andloyalty.
When I was a kid, someone Itruly loved was labeled by a
teacher in tarot out of the bluethat they were slow.
That broke my heart and justlike that, they accepted the
label and began to embody it.
They start failing, class afterclass, even though they have
(48:03):
never struggled before.
It broke my heart to see thishappen.
So the one day, as we werewalking home from school, I told
them you know the good thingabout labels you can always take
them.
You can take them off anytimeyou get to define yourself.
The only label you should everwear is the one that you choose.
(48:27):
That moment stayed with mebecause it reminds me of how
powerful labels can be and howliberating it is to realize you
have a choice to remove them.
There's a phrase we often hearvoting against our own interests
.
But who defines those interests?
(48:48):
For some, the truest interestisn't financial or material.
It's a matter of principle, ofa vision for a better world,
even if it means sacrificingsomething personal.
It's about standing forsomething greater than ourselves
, even if it doesn't align withwhat society deems is logical or
(49:12):
even practical.
But what if we could take a stepback from part of party loyalty
and ask ourselves why are westill here?
Are we sticking around forhabit, tradition, or because we
believe we have no other optionsI gave you 1717 options or we
(49:35):
truly align with what chosenparty represents today?
Maybe, instead of letting thepolitical label define us, we
can redefine our loyalties toreflect our truest value.
So, as we close the perch Pete,let's make room for new
perspectives.
So, as we close the perch Pete,let's make room for new
(50:01):
perspectives, one that allow usto look beyond party lines and
see ourselves clearly.
Let us consider that ourhighest loyalty might not be to
a party at all, but to the truthwe discover within ourselves,
because from the highestperspective we can truly find
clarity to make choices thatresonate with who we are and who
we aspire to be.
Remember, your perch isn't justa place to sit, it's a place to
(50:25):
seek higher perspective.
Until we meet again, take careBye.
Good day Perch people.
Thank you for joining us today.
I'm so excited.
I think I mentioned.
What was that.
Toby (00:15):
That's my show of excitement.
Tree (00:17):
Oh, my God, I think I mentioned it's the last podcast,
but if you didn't, this isseason two, season two, episode
two, perch with its new format.
So what I want to do is quicklyjust remind people, first of
all those of you who are new andjoining us for the first time,
(00:39):
thank you, we truly appreciateit.
But Perch is an actionstatement.
It's an acronym.
Perch stands for Pause,evaluate, response to Circumvent
Harm.
So what we're going to do,especially in Season 2, to be
very clear, every show you look,you stare at me like what are
we doing?
I'm waiting to hear this, I'mbated breath.
(01:01):
Oh hush.
Every show is based around thePER, the P-E-R.
So we're going to pause, and wepause when we let you know the
topic and ask you to take amoment before you judge, or you
assume you think you know whatthe show is about Evaluate your
(01:21):
response.
So this is our first everseries and this series is a
four-part series and I'm gonnasay this today's title for last.
But I'll just give, just giveyou a teaser to know what all
the each title of the series is.
So the series title is calledcounting the cost of loyalty.
(01:43):
Why stay true to what hasfailed you, so I'm gonna hop
ahead.
The next episode is about love,when settling becomes a saddle.
The next one is careers and thetitle is it normal to?
Is it normal to commit yourselfto something that doesn't have
(02:04):
the ability to commit to you?
And then religion, when abelief becomes an absolute.
But again, don't dismiss it,don't think it's about religion.
A lot of it is not what youthink it is like.
Today's show, today's topics.
(02:25):
Today is Wednesday, will beexactly less than a week from
voting, and today's topic ispolitical parties.
When the party is over, why areyou sticking around?
This is not listen, listen,listen.
Purge people.
This is not Listen, listen,listen, people.
(02:47):
This is not about what's goingon in our political climate.
I know we're all politics out.
It's not about no, we're notgoing there, toby.
I know we're all politics out.
This is not about RepublicanDemocrat Trump versus Harris.
This is about parties.
So just to make my point, Iwasn't aware of this and maybe
(03:09):
some of you weren't aware.
Did you know that currentlyhere in America, there are 17
active political parties?
Toby (03:17):
And I never miss a party.
Tree (03:18):
So you don't even go to party.
You don't even go Whatever.
There are 17 active politicalparties.
Of course, we only know themajor two parties for the
majority of us, and then thesmaller parties.
But let me just tell you, justfyi, in case you didn't know the
democratic party is the largestparty in america.
It has 45.9 million members andfound and it's the oldest party
(03:44):
in america, founded in 1828.
The republican party is thesecond largest party, is 35.7
members and it was founded in1854.
Now I'm going to put thisinformation.
I'm not going to go down allthe details of the 17 parties,
but I quickly want to mentionthem.
(04:04):
So you like what?
The Libertarian Party,independent party of Oregon, the
Socialist Party, party ofsocialism and liberation, the
Alliance Party, the AmericanSolidarity Party, the
working-class party, the forward, the Vermont Progressive Party,
(04:26):
american Independent Party,green Party, constitutional, no
labels, working families,liberal and natural law parties.
That's 17.
They're all currently activeand, honestly, most of them were
founded in 2000,.
A couple in 1990s.
So that and before I hand thisover to Toby, what I found
(04:50):
fascinating in the two partiesthat are the most recognizable
parties in America each partyhas seven ideologies attached to
them.
So what does that mean?
So I'm going to tell you.
Sobertarian conservativesstress individual freedoms,
(05:26):
minimum government and a freemarket principle.
The Christian conservativesprioritize religions, religion,
moral values and policies.
The fiscally conservativeideologies focus on reducing
government spending.
Am I boring you To death?
Okay, so I'm going to move on,because I don't want Toby to
(05:48):
fall asleep.
The populace and national.
Toby (05:49):
I think I'm just here for eye candy today, so you
definitely are not here for eyecandy.
Tree (05:53):
Matter of fact, go to sleep until.
Toby (05:54):
I wake you back up when it's your turn.
Tree (05:56):
Perfect and the national conservatives.
So the seven.
I won't go into them because Idon't want to bore.
Toby is a progressive, moderateliberal.
Social democracy, blue dogDemocrats, labor Democrats Now
you're barking JesusEnvironmentalists and civil
(06:16):
rights.
I thought it was the time, itwas good to say when we hold
true to such values, do werecognize that a lot has changed
from when we initially enjoyedthe party and the reason I'm
doing this?
In this order, this series.
Trust me, if you guys watch theseries from beginning to end,
(06:41):
every topic is all connected andwe're going to bring it home.
And at the end of each episode,before we end, now we have
Perch Peak, but we'll take amoment to reflect on what we
discussed.
So please, please, please stayto the end.
So that's me Now that you canwake up now.
Toby (06:57):
It's my turn already.
Wow, it seems like it's onlybeen okay.
Hey, good morning.
Good morning, good afternoon,morning good evening we don't
know.
Members of the perch partypower to the people so you woke
up just to say that yeah, youlost me when you started talking
about dinosaur bones okay, sopaleontology isn't that with
(07:20):
dinosaur, dinosaur bones, right?
Tree (07:22):
yeah, so I was.
Yeah, it'll be on the site.
You can Google, you canresearch, you can do whatever
Great.
Toby (07:28):
How are you feeling today?
How are you doing I?
Tree (07:30):
am doing.
Well, I know you're gettingover a bug.
I am the bug.
Toby (07:35):
It was miserable Anyway.
Tree (07:38):
I'm going to break out my violence.
Toby (07:39):
Perfect, that's right.
Plain hurt today.
She figured she could attack meon my political beliefs and
political party and all that.
But anyway, good morning orgood afternoon.
Tree (07:49):
You said that and it could be afternoon.
It could be afternoon.
Good evening.
We're getting ready for thehome.
Guys, it's time.
Toby (07:56):
What a lovely home.
Tree (07:57):
It's time.
Toby (07:57):
Yeah, well, we're closing on Halloween, so this is my
favorite time of the year.
Okay, so this is my favoritetime of the year.
Okay, are we going to talkabout Polly?
I love Jell-O too, by the way.
Oh man, I had to take a littlebit.
We were getting heavy there.
I felt like I was sitting inPolly's side class again.
I was like did I take notes onthis?
But no, I didn't.
(08:18):
I didn't, no.
Tree (08:20):
I really do, because when you throw a topic like that out
there, I really do, because whenyou throw a, topic like that
out there it's good to give somecontext.
And did you know that therewere 17 parties?
Toby (08:29):
Who knew?
No, I'm serious.
No, I actually didn't.
It's funny.
Tree (08:32):
And they're active parties .
These aren't Well active.
Toby (08:35):
The left-handed Ukrainian political party of South Oregon.
Tree (08:38):
Well, most of them have thousands or not hundreds of
thousands, some a million rightand a million members at a
million members progressiveparty of vermont.
That's probably like six guysin a vfw hall, but anyway, I
guess the greater point, too,toby, is when you say this is if
you are a person who subscribeto a party and say and and loyal
, yeah, how do you define whatyou're being loyal?
Toby (08:59):
well, that comes back to what we talked about before is
it's it's really hard to beloyal to something that's not
loyal back to you, right?
I mean, that's the wholepremise behind what we're
talking about and the fact thatso many people look at political
parties and they give them thisblind loyalty, as if somehow
this party is going to love themback.
And it's a fascinating study,and I know we're not going to
(09:22):
use the T-rump word here duringor not during the course of our
conversation, but, um, thatphenomenon in and of itself is
fascinating if you study it andand how it really did create an
upheaval in our politicalstructure.
And there's a lot ofconversation about excuse me,
around things like tribalism andabout blind loyalty and and the
(09:43):
need for people to belong.
So, um, there's someinteresting stuff.
Tree (09:47):
I've got about 600 pages I'll read to you here today oh,
we're not doing that yeah, so um, yeah, but I, but I I do want
to say, with that too, it'sfascinating to me and I think it
is important and I know thismay freak some people out to say
, I think it is important toquestion loyalty.
That's why I did a whole serieson on loyalty, because, um,
(10:10):
that's a high value when you,when you're loyal to something,
what does that mean and what areyou committing to?
And, like you said, how do youcommit to something that
literally, in its existence, hasthe inability to commit back to
you?
That's almost kind of insane, Ithought.
But even within that, I thoughtit was important to say, um,
(10:32):
what we don't know is and Ihaven't seen it, and maybe it's
a work in progress with theseseven ideologies I'm wondering,
from a, a party lens, how itlays out.
Because when you say, like, whatpercentage of democrats you
know are blue dog, whatpercentage of you know?
(10:53):
Uh, and that's because thiscame out, because a lot of them,
the, the, the MAGA movement inpolitical parties, there is no
MAGA ideology, but if you lookat the paleo conservative
definition, it's MAGA.
So when, when you're loyal tosomething, is the total party
(11:16):
being represented by somethingthat you don't support, value or
believe in?
So that's why it's important.
Even though it seems like a lotof conversation is going on, I
don't think people are takingthe time to explain loyalty.
We're just saying well, you'reloyal to a party and I've been a
(11:37):
Republican all my life.
I've been a Democrat and I'mgoing to die that I'm like, but
never when it, when it is nolonger what you knew it to be
when you first joined the party.
Toby (11:46):
You know this as well as I do.
I always kind of I won't evensay criticize, but I always
label Tree as an idealist and wehave conversations, like
everybody does, around politics,especially this time of year,
as it relates to things like whydoes somebody do this?
I mean, we watch the primariesand this person just attacks
(12:08):
this person and then threemonths later, they
wholeheartedly, full-throatedlyendorse them and, without fail,
tree comes to me and says howcan they do that?
How is that possible?
And I'm like it's politicsAgain.
There's no loyalty other than toa brand, to a party, other than
to a brand you know, to a party, and these people know that
their lifeblood, their future,is driven by the fact that they
(12:34):
stay in that party.
That's why so few people moveparties.
That's why when you see a TulsiGabbard or you see, you know
various folks who actuallychange parties, it's very rare
because that's almost committingpolitical suicide.
So there is no loyalty on theirlevel.
It's just well, sorry, let merephrase it there's nothing but
loyalty on their part.
Blindly speaking, they justfollow it and you can look at it
(12:54):
all over the place.
If you want to talk about theTrump phenomenon for two seconds
.
He's not a Republican, he's apopulist.
Tree (13:01):
We don't.
Toby (13:02):
He's a populist that person whose name shall not be
repeated and I'm not talkingabout Valdemort is a populist.
He's not a Republican.
The problem is, that personwhose name we will not talk
about is so popular that theRepublican Party has gone.
Well, shit, I guess we'll hitchour wagons to this guy for the
next four years and then weworry about it after that, and
then you'll get on to the peoplethat are truly Republicans.
(13:24):
We worry about it after that,and then you'll get on to the
people that are trulyrepublicans.
Uh, you know whether that's, uh, the desantis, or a rubio, or,
or you know some of these otherfolks, but he's, he is not so to
go back to the topic, when itcomes down to yes, because?
Tree (13:38):
yes, because we're not talking about individuals.
Toby (13:41):
We're talking about the fact that a populist was put
into a Republican mode becausethat was the most popular choice
at this point, and blindly, theRepublicans gave up a lot of
their values to follow somebodywho was a populist.
So let's talk about so, butthen you.
Tree (13:56):
So I think you are making my point.
You're making my point withsaying so.
So what you're is the.
The loyalty is technically notto a party, and let me explain
why so because I don't knowwhere you're going.
Okay, where am I going?
Toby (14:14):
um, no, please, no, no no, let's do this for the next 45
minutes no, please, no, please,oh, my god.
Tree (14:20):
So all right.
So let me tell you go toby.
Toby (14:26):
All I was going to say is there are a few times in the
history of our country where apersonality has has over uh, has
overcome or surpassed the party.
Normally, the party drives the,the, the agenda, and they drive
the candidates and they drivethe whole mission.
What happened here was wereached a very interesting
(14:46):
critical mass in our countrywhere there was such a high
level of dissatisfaction within,notably, the Republican Party,
but also within the DemocraticParty, where a person came out
of nowhere and said I'm for you,I'm for the small people, we're
going to make America greatagain, we're going to do all
these things and really tappedinto an emotional nationalism
(15:06):
that nobody else had done before.
Now, all of a sudden, theRepublicans are like we don't
want this person.
And I remember when thisparticular person first started
to show up on the scene andeverybody's like this is a
punchline, it's not going tohappen, it's going to go away.
Then, well, we were wrong.
Tree (15:22):
I apologize for a few points.
Well, we were wrong.
I apologize for a few points.
Toby (15:25):
We weren't talking about individuals.
We were talking about a party.
We were talking about anideology, a populist movement.
Tree (15:30):
But my point being which you said you knew what I was
going to say, so I let youfinish my sentence, and you
weren't even in the ballparkShocking you missed it by that
much.
My point being I almost thinkit's lazier of us as society to
even mention party loyalty,because your party is now not
(15:52):
defined.
So what are you loyal to?
So it can't be a party.
It can't If you have sevenideologies.
What is your party?
Toby (16:04):
Do you think most people know those seven ideologies?
Tree (16:05):
that's my whole point right that's what I'm saying.
So we just we've been sayingparty loyalty out of habit, out
of history, out of not out ofdishonesty, so because there is
no party loyalty okay becausewhat?
What is your party before you?
Toby (16:22):
did your research.
If I had asked you a simplequestion in terms of what
differentiates a Republican froma Democrat, what would you say?
One or two punchlines.
If I'm a Democrat, what do Istand for?
If I'm a Republican, what do Istand for?
Tree (16:37):
You're asking the wrong person.
And you know why you're askingthe wrong person it's because
the lines have been blurred forme on both for a long time
Speaker.
1, so I would never consider Iwouldn't, I am not ever going to
put a label on me.
I'm not and I know that, butlet me but let me, but let me.
(16:59):
Can I finish?
But what I know is this is whatwe do, because everyone was
like, well, you're a Democrat,because people know my values,
because I'm a person whoactually lives my values.
I don't.
I, I'm a person who actuallylives my values.
I, I care about my neighbor.
I try to cheat people fairly.
(17:21):
I care about the greater andwe're going to jump to the see.
This is exactly what I'mtalking about.
Why do you?
Why do you feel the need tolabel?
Why do you feel the need tolabel?
Because I was highly offendedthat a party decided to be the
party of Christ.
That that was offensive to me,because God, if you are a
(17:50):
Christian and you believe in God, god is the God of all.
He said that he's the God ofall, so how did you decide that
it's a guard god of your party?
So does that mean that alibertarian, a green and all
this, we?
You have christians in in allparties.
Toby (18:03):
There are four thousand other religions out there for
them to choose from.
Tree (18:06):
They could choose 3999 but that belongs to one party.
But this is my point on all ofit.
And and then on the Democraticside it was like well, what do
you stand for?
And I have an issue with theDemocrats having aversion to say
the with, you know, in areligious environment.
(18:27):
So does that make meconservative?
Toby (18:40):
I don't.
Tree (18:41):
I don't attach that's my point that none of this makes
sense to me.
I don't attach religion topolitics, I don't agree with it.
So I am who I am, I believe whatI believe.
I call strike strikes, I callballs balls, and I and I will.
So when you say values, what doyou believe in?
(19:02):
When it's the majority of yourparty, the loudest voices are
something you're anti, for thesake of loyalty, you can't say
no, you can't say that's not whowe are, or you have to stay
committed, because all of it iswell if you look at other
countries.
Toby (19:22):
There are other countries where they have actually
fragmented their politicalparties to be much more
ideologically specific, if youwill be, if you will, and what
that creates is a real challengeto ever reach a majority for
the government to rule.
So what we've done here is kindof this dummying down.
And you're absolutely right, Ijoke about it and I kid, but the
(19:44):
reality is nobody.
Very few people are true blue,very few people are true red.
We're somewhere in between andwhat you have to do is you have
to kind of make some choicesbased around that.
But there are some ideologicalprinciples that have kind of
changed over the years and younamed a couple of them that the
(20:04):
Democratic Party tends to favora larger government Good or bad,
I'm not putting but a largergovernment and more services for
its people.
Government and more servicesfor its people.
And the assumption is that aDemocratic party would say that
the government should take careof more of the needs of its
citizenry.
There's nothing wrong with thatapproach whatsoever.
(20:26):
And then the Republicans,historically, have said smaller
government, leave more in theprivate sector, allow private
citizens to take care of eachother, requiring obviously a
little bit more stuff to takeplace outside of the government.
But one says, let's do a lotfor you, the other one says, do
less for you.
One tends to be a little bitmore financially or fiscally
(20:48):
conservative, the other onetends to be a little bit more
fiscally aggressive, but afterthat as you said, even at the
surface, that that, that that initself is a fallacy.
Tree (20:59):
And it's a fallacy because it's it's a system of picks and
chooses, meaning one party cansay smaller government, but
they're OK, we'll have thelargest military in the world
because that's one of the thingsthe government is responsible
to do.
Yeah, no, but you did.
I not say picks and chooses andI was like, but because one
(21:22):
party, the other party had saidat one time, well, the
government should be responsibleto make sure that we all have
health care.
And then they say, well, that'snot the government's position,
right, but then it's stilltaking care of its people.
It's picks and chooses is whatI'm saying Right?
Because if you are, if amilitary is set for and everyone
(21:44):
agrees that it's the governmentresponsibility to keep people
safe.
Toby (21:49):
Country safe.
Tree (21:49):
That's why keeping people safe is keeping a country safe.
Correct.
The people make up the country.
Toby (21:55):
Well, but I don't want to pick and choose.
Okay.
Okay, the local government isinvolved with local it's for
local enforcement.
The government only has likefour responsibilities.
Let me finish my point, Okay.
Tree (22:07):
Excuse me, let me just finish my point.
You can go to town.
So if part of the military isto keep the country safe and
keeping a country safe keeps thepeople safe essentially part,
and so that is, just from amilitary perspective, part of
(22:27):
the government, and we saw it.
That's why COVID was a mess foreveryone, because the world was
experiencing something at thesame time.
Part of safety is health.
Health is part of safety and wedecided to pick and choose what
safety looks like.
So you're saying the governmentcan protect us from the enemies
(22:50):
outside of how?
I forgot the exact way theConstitution lays it out in a
detail it's foreign, domestic.
Well then, that's thegovernment's responsibility.
But you know, some of theseepidemics and they're going to
keep happening and these viruses, it's things that aren't
keeping us safe and aren'tkeeping us protected.
(23:11):
And you see, when there's anepidemic, the government had to
step in and try to help.
And we failed.
So I'm just saying it's asystem.
Toby (23:19):
And we failed.
Yes, we failed initially,because that's a church for
another day.
Tree (23:25):
No, but I don't even see how it's debatable, because that
was the one thing we were kindof agreeing on when I said we
failed.
We didn't have an active systemin place and it took us a while
to get it together to getmedicine to people.
We all had this experiencetogether.
Toby (23:41):
I'm not making up something that didn't happen and
I'm not trying to get back ontopic, because that's a topic
for another day right, I'm nottrying to get into.
Tree (23:50):
I'm just saying when these parties say they have values
and they say they stand forsomething, even the values
sometimes these parties say theyhave values and they say they
stand for something even thevalues sometimes these parties
say they stand for arereflective.
That's my point.
So the whole point of this isare you really paying attention
to what you are being loyal toand when in your loyalty?
(24:11):
When do you recognize it change?
That's why I did a series,because I don't want to go into,
because that goes intorelationships, love and
everything else we really needto evaluate.
Don't take anything for granted.
Toby (24:28):
Don't have blind loyalty and be honest when this no
longer represents me well andwhat you're seeing, and I mean
there's a lot of similaritiesbetween the topics you've chosen
here.
But the reason that that therepublican party specifically is
in such turmoil right now isthey.
Many people believe therepublican party has left them.
(24:48):
You know, then, that's whyyou've got these, these spinoffs
, like the constitutionalistswho turn around and say whoa,
whoa, whoa the republican, whoa,whoa.
The Republican Party stood forfour basic values.
You mentioned them.
The government should printmoney, the government should
make sure that the marketplaceis equitable and fair you know,
fair labor and employmentpractices and work environment,
(25:11):
and then protect the country.
And if I'd studied my civics, Icould probably tell you the
fourth one too.
But, by the way, I took thetest to become a citizen and I
almost kind of sort of passed.
Tree (25:22):
He is a citizen, please be clear you can't just say I took
the test.
Toby (25:25):
I took the test.
Yeah, she gave it to meyesterday and some of their
questions were wrong, but I gotthem right.
Tree (25:32):
So Toby is a citizen.
I just brought up a point.
Toby (25:35):
If you took the test, would the average American be
able to pass?
It's not easy.
You ought to try, go online andtake a look.
But anyway, all I'm getting atis there's a large portion of
the Republican Party dare sayyou know citizenry who says wait
a minute, the Republican Partyhas gotten hijacked and this
isn't what we stand for.
But it doesn't really matter,because the Republican Party
just wants to rule, just likethe Democratic Party just wants
(25:59):
to rule.
Tree (26:00):
So what does that say about us?
Toby (26:02):
Well, it says a lot.
Tree (26:03):
But why be loyal to something that you are making my
point?
Toby (26:08):
No, that's what I'm trying to do.
Tree (26:11):
Unloyal to a party who, at its core, focuses on ruling and
leading, opposed to being whatthey.
Toby (26:22):
I'd love to read something to you if I could.
So I'm going to put my glasseson so I can look really smart.
No, really, so I can see Aprofessor of psychiatry at Wayne
State University and I wouldlove to pronounce his name, but
it's really difficult, so I'mjust going to say this
particular professor assistantprofessor wrote this piece and
he attributes it to tribalism,and it's a very interesting
argument.
He says tribalism is thebiological loophole that many
(26:45):
politicians have banked on for along time, tapping into our
fears and tribal instincts.
Some examples are Nazism, theKu Klux Klan, religious wars and
the Dark Ages.
The typical pattern is to givethe other humans a label
different than us and say theyare going to harm us or our
resources, and to turn the othergroup into a concept.
(27:06):
It does not necessarily have tobe race or nationality, which
are used very often.
It can be real or imaginarydifferences Liberals,
conservatives, middle Easterners, white men, the right, the left
, muslim, jews, christians,sikhs the list goes on and on.
When building tribal boundariesbetween us and them, some
(27:28):
politicians have managed verywell to create virtual groups of
people that do not communicateand hate each other without even
knowing each other.
Oh, glass is stuck.
So I I think that's a reallyinteresting statement that says
that they have done a masterfuljob of creating us into these
(27:49):
tribes, as this particularprofessor indicated, and
creating fear and diversityamong us, and and pointing out
where we're different ratherthan where we're the same, so
that they can create anger.
Tree (28:01):
Anger creates action and then action creates well and and
it's and I there's nothing thatthe articles say stated that I
didn't believe in.
But I would add one more umnuance to that that they've so
even weaponizing woke, soliterally to other eyes, to
(28:23):
another category.
Now there's the woke people,and so here's another label, and
so let's put these people overhere.
Essentially, woke came from aterm in the African-American
community we've been usingforever and ever for decades,
and woke meant to to what youshould do, pay attention, be
(28:46):
aware, be informed.
So now they start banning booksand said well, these are woke
books.
They trying to tell you about ahistory you don't know anything
about.
These are.
So the labels continue, thedivision continues, and part of
that is the, the miseducation,and the information is rampant.
(29:06):
Because now if you take asnippet of something that's
shown on a commercial whichsounds like, oh my God, that's
what this person believes, god,that's what this person believes
, and that's what that personbelieves, they take a snippet,
take it out of context and thenthey tell you don't read about
it, just trust what I say.
Don't you know?
This is something that they'recreating, this is the, the woke
(29:30):
people, and don't look into itfor yourself.
And all of this from partyloyalty, all of it.
We need to be students.
If you are loyal to something,I would advise strongly.
You damn sure know what you'rebeing loyal to and what you're
representing.
Toby (29:46):
The other thing, though and I'm not saying it happened
in this particular case,although I would contend it did,
and maybe we'll have a podcaston the woke movement, but what?
Tree (29:56):
tends to happen, I don't know.
Every time I hear that I justget frustrated.
Toby (29:59):
I know, I know but it's not what it started out being,
and one of the examples I'mgoing to give is when I was in
college, I considered myself alibertarian, and the main reason
being is anybody who watchesthese podcasts.
I believe very much inself-regulation.
Whatever I do with my life, aslong as it doesn't impact your,
I should be able to do.
As long as it doesn't break alaw, I should be able to do
(30:21):
whatever I want to do, as longas it doesn't impact on your
ability to do whatever you wantto do within the constraints of
the law.
So I always felt like well,that's exactly what the
Libertarian Party says.
And you start to listen to theplatform and they say things
like that Should I have to weara seatbelt?
Only if I want to?
Now there's a whole argumentabout if I get in an accident,
who's going to pay for it.
But you know, if I ride amotorcycle, should I have to
(30:42):
wear a helmet?
That should be a personaldecision.
Now you can argue that as muchas you like, and I'm good with
that.
I'm going along with this andI'm buying it.
The candidate for theLibertarian Party and he's going
down this road and he's going,and you should have the right to
choose this and you should havethe right to choose this.
And then he gets to the pointwhere he says and if you want to
buy an Abrams tank, you shouldbe able to go do that.
(31:02):
And I was like whoa, we justwent a long way, from my wearing
a bicycle helmet to going tobuy a military grade assault
weapon, you know, and all of asudden we jumped to that level
but can we pause right there?
Tree (31:13):
yeah, this is why perch that is literally the antithesis
of perch.
I don't understand.
Perch is gray.
The, the whole ideology ofperch is great meaning.
There's always nuance.
Nothing is ever black and white.
Toby (31:31):
There's always a shade of gray.
Tree (31:33):
This is why I don't get party loyalty, Because when you
decide well, I once was this,but now I'm this.
And I once was a liberal andnow I'm a Democrat.
And I once was a Democrat, nowI'm a liberal Republican, now
I'm this.
Why, why pick a label?
And Toby, you call me anidealist.
(31:53):
I am one to my core and that'sone label now, I guess.
Toby (31:57):
And it's not a bad thing.
Let me just finish my point,okay.
Tree (32:00):
Because I like a good idea .
I think we, in order for us tobe a society that's ever
evolving, we have to be eternalstudents and always looking for
a better way, a better way.
But if you stay loyal to aparty, the party is trying to
(32:23):
define a way.
The party is trying to define apath and say this is who we are
and that's why people haveproblem with religion and
everything else.
I don't want to get into theother topics because it says, in
order for you to be like me, apart of this group, a part of
this party, this that these arecore principles, this is what we
(32:44):
represent and if you can followthis, I'm like, but I am the
type of person I don't likebuffets for real, like, for real
.
I know there's choices, but youknow I don't like things as
being picked over.
That's just me.
And and how this tie into aparty is saying I like to pick
and choose, I like choice, Ilike to say this works for me,
(33:06):
this doesn't, this work, and I Icannot subscribe to a party
because I am never going toagree with anybody on this
planet.
Even that's why I struggle.
Toby (33:18):
And the only reason I call you an idealist.
Well, first of all you are, andI think it's a wonderful thing.
The challenge is when it comesto governing people.
You know this.
We're members of a homeownersassociation.
We get 10 people in the room.
We have 11 different ideas.
It's really hard to bringpeople together to agree on
almost anything.
The color of cocktail napkins.
I can't agree on.
(33:39):
So now we're trying to run acountry and the complexity
inherently involved with that,and so we dummy down things to
such a great extent.
I don't have a problem withthat as much as I do.
How government has chosenchosen is probably the wrong
word but how government dictatestheir control over people,
Because happy people arequestioning people.
(34:00):
If we're happy, we ask a lot ofquestions.
Why are there no term limits?
Why is it that we allow this tohappen?
Why do we let this occur?
So what?
The government-.
Tree (34:10):
And it's not unpatriotic, it is not.
Toby (34:14):
It is not In fact.
We should all question a lot ofthis, absolutely.
But what the governments willdo and it's very clear,
interesting articles, you'llread it everywhere.
Governments manage by fear.
They have to manage by fearbecause fear is such a strong
emotion.
If you're scared of something,you'll toe the line.
If you're not scared ofsomething, you ask a lot of
questions and Tree and I willhave long conversations on our
(34:37):
drives and we'll say we havemore in common, politically
speaking, than we do apart.
But you'd never know it bylistening to the press, by
reading social media.
We are so far apart, we are sodifferent and that's complete
hogwash, it's absolute garbage.
But what happens is thepolitical parties drive that
stake between us because theywant to create division, they
(34:57):
want to create anger.
They want me to be mad at Treebecause she's liberal and they
want Tree to be mad at mebecause I don't care about the
poor.
And that's a bunch of horseshitand that is a technical term.
You can quote me.
But the idea is that that'swhat happens and there's all
kinds of interesting articles.
I'm not going to get into greatdetail, but there's one here
about how political leadersstrategically manipulate us and
(35:20):
they do it through fear, they doit through divisiveness, they
do it through language, they doit through emotion, and the most
strong emotion is fear, fear.
Tree (35:31):
And I'm always, always going to vote.
My people fought for this right.
It was not freely given to usand I would not allow anyone to
disclose my vote.
So, with me being an idealist,I really have to take time and
one thing I'm grateful for shoutout to my daughters.
(35:51):
They do the same thing.
They take their vote serious.
So when it comes time to vote,we, in advance, go through, try
to say you know, know what'sgoing on locally.
Kind of fell short that wemoved here, but try to say
what's going on locally.
Before I vote for a judge, Ilook at some of the cases
they've tried before I vote foranything, because it has to line
(36:15):
up with what I believe andthat's it.
I need to see your work.
So your your lip service.
It goes in one ear and comesout the other when it comes time
to what have you stood for,what laws have you put for, what
have you supported?
Now I know I agree with you, soI, I more so, agree with you on
that side and that's how I voteand let it go.
(36:37):
Because I can listen to and Tobyknows this, I listen to a lot
of podcasts, a lot ofinformation all day long and I
will agree with people likeJordan Peterson.
Toby cares for him more than Ido, but I listen to him on a lot
of things and I like the waythat he articulated religion.
A lot of religious people maynot, but I'm like, I listen and
(37:01):
I listen for you.
Not soundbites, not.
Does it make sense to me, doesit live up to the values in my
belief system and how I seethings, and that's it.
I don't have to.
I don't know who told us thatwe have to agree.
Yeah, we do not have to agree.
You have every right to feelyour feels, believe what you
(37:22):
believe and eat, and especiallyin things like politics and
religion I'm amazed that peopleare told let's talk about
medicine for a second.
Toby (37:32):
You're told you have to self-advocate.
Nobody's going to worry aboutyour health more than you should
, and I know a number of peoplewho have had tragedies in their
lives and all kinds of issuesand all of a sudden they become
advocates of their own health.
What does my EKG look like?
What is my blood pressure?
Is that good or bad?
And they advocate and then theygo blindly follow a party and
you're like wait a minute, youadvocated for your health.
(37:54):
Why don't you advocate for yourown intelligence?
Tree (37:57):
that is a great but that's a great analogy.
But think about what you justsaid and that's why we're having
a show that actually lovelyties.
Thank you it in.
I know you had no clue, you didthat came from nowhere, pulled
it out absolutely the far crackanyway.
Um, sorry, the far crack, anyway, sorry.
(38:19):
What that says is you hit theneedle on the head Like we go to
the doctor trusting the doctorhas our best interest at heart.
You do what the doctor saysuntil you realize now my health
is failing and I am literallysaying that I know something is
wrong because I know my body soand I am not taking serious.
Now that I'm not taking serious, serious, I have to be my own
(38:41):
advocate because my health isfailing and they don't seem to
care.
Oh, that's so good, that ispolitics, that is what I'm
saying.
So what I'm saying to you is weare seeing this system is
broken and our parties that wesubscribe to believe in are
failing us.
But until it, personally and II kind of have to I'm not gonna
(39:06):
say you, you've kind of appliedthis to you know, when it comes
down to parties like yeah, theysay that, are they really going
to do?
it they say that, but are theyreally going to do it?
But my thing is why are youwaiting for that person to fail
you in a certain manner whentheir actions and their words
are already failing?
That's good.
We can end a podcast, right now.
Toby (39:27):
Look at so many, so many companies right now where, all
of a sudden, the shareholdersare starting to take over.
Why is the ceo making millionsof dollars and the company's
losing money?
You're starting to see a lot ofactivism.
Well that's getting into thecareers All.
I'm getting at is activism isoccurring in the private sector,
why isn't activism occurring inthe public sector?
Why aren't we looking andsaying why have these fat cat
(39:49):
politicians made so much moneyand millions of dollars?
There's no way that they shouldhave made that kind of money,
and yet we elect them over andover again.
So we're the jackasses here.
We are the ones who are beingmade to look the fool, because
we continue to reelect thesepeople who don't represent our
interests, who aren't listeningto us, who don't recognize that
we have more things in commonthan we have apart, and we're
(40:11):
not looking to harmonize, we'relooking to polarize and we're
separating ourselves and, as aresult of that, everything you
read, you go on social media,you go on the press.
You've got CNBC, who's liberal,and you've got Fox, who's
conservative, and we've lost ourcontrol of news.
Tree (40:28):
We now have nothing but opinion, and so until we
self-advocate, we're going tocontinue to get this slop but,
but, but, and I just want to inin that regard, we, we are
self-advocating from a mediaperspective because those big
media, we have now more podcasts, more information than we've
(40:53):
ever had before.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm just saying from a
meter perspective, but so manyof them.
Toby (40:58):
You and I have talked about this Tree and I have
talked about where Perch shouldgo, and we don't want to just
recycle the slop that's outthere.
And I'm going to criticize alot of podcasts right now.
They take a clip from thecurrent presidential debates or
from a current presidentialcandidate and then they just
(41:18):
pile on it.
That's not podcasting.
If all you're doing isparroting a statement that
you've heard some other talkingad put together, that's not
thought leadership, that's notintelligence, that's just
fanning a flame.
So all of you who do that andyou get thousands and millions
of likes you're just an emptyvessel.
I don't care what you guysthink about it, you're worthless
(41:41):
, you're worthless Dead to notsee us taking that turn today.
Turned a little ugly there forsay come back, good, now.
Tree (41:49):
Did you get it out though, cuz I don't know come back.
Toby (41:51):
I hope that's fast Wake up , mummy, you got it Okay, though
, because I don't ever know howto come back.
I hope that's right.
Tree (41:55):
wake up, mummy, you got it okay we're good, I'm gonna
blame it on a cold man's people.
They're kicking it that that'sexactly what I'm gonna say and I
honestly had a point.
And then, when you startslamming other podcasters,
create.
Toby (42:09):
Create good content.
Please Back to you, jim.
Tree (42:19):
Toby, I really had a thought, that one, and you
really shocked me, and youreally, you know I normally
still my toes with you.
Toby (42:28):
I don't know.
Tree (42:29):
But that one just took me.
Toby (42:30):
I forgive.
I'll be over here drinkingwater if you need anything.
Tree (42:35):
Okay, and I was Pause.
Toby (42:38):
Evaluate.
Tree (42:40):
To circumvent harm.
So one thing before we wrap andget towards the end.
Another thing I want to topicis voting in your own interests.
That's a term that's alwaysdrove me crazy as well, because
what I know what the implicationis that that that typically
(43:03):
implies when they say you'revoting against your interests
connotation it's like you know.
So if you make X amount ofmoney and one party is known to
be more partial to someone whomakes less than you, that's how
your interest is.
It's asinine Cause.
(43:24):
First of all, who are you totell me what my interest is?
Number one you have no ideawhat I'm interested in.
Number one.
Number two it's my values,values.
So you're voting your values,and what that tells me is
whoever coined this term and thepeople that use it because I've
heard it used to towards meseveral times their value is
(43:47):
their, their, their pocketbook.
You know their wallet, theirfinances, and that's it I.
And it's so hard for people tofathom that not everyone values
money but it is a personaldecision.
Toby (44:00):
We talked about this a little bit yesterday and and I
believe um and this is going toshock you as a republican, I
believe in universal health care.
I think everybody should havehealth care.
I also believe we should takecare of literally all american
citizens and provide them basichuman rights, and human rights
today are different than theywere in the 1700s, and I think
we need to evolve toward that.
That being said, if thegovernment came and said we are
(44:23):
going to create universal healthcare in this country and the
good news, popular citizens, isit's only going to cost you all
$20,000 a year more, now we'reall going to take a deep breath
and some of us, to Tree's point,will say $20,000, that's a
small price to pay to make sureour country's healthier.
And then other people mightlook at that and go $20,000?
(44:45):
Are you out of your mind?
Why is it going to cost $20,000?
That's absurd.
And now, what's my magic numberversus Tree's magic number?
Probably very different.
Would I pay an extra $1,000 ayear to make sure everybody was
insured?
I think I would.
Would I pay $10,000?
I probably wouldn't.
Now, does that make me a cold,callous person?
It might, but to say thateverybody has the same values or
(45:10):
is driven by the same, as yousaid, is absolutely wrong.
Tree (45:13):
Agreed.
So I'm cheap before I'm silly,before I bring this in any end.
Do you have I?
Have about 63 pages and we'renot doing that, so wrap it up,
put a bowl all right, you wantme to?
Toby (45:32):
well, the only thing that I would say is that obviously
we're we everybody every everyfour years, we talk about this
being the election of allelections and this will change
the world, and the rhetoric andthe vitriol and all that, sorry
guys, I mean for what it's worth.
It's just another election.
It's.
The sun is going to come up onthat Wednesday morning and the
(45:55):
world will go back to normal andyou may have a crazy person in
place, you may not have a crazyperson in place, you may have
somebody who's worthless inplace.
It's, it doesn't matter because, at the end of the day, good
people will, will make sure willprevail.
Craziness has happened in thisworld forever and I don't care
what anybody says when they saythis is the first time that
we've ever bullshit.
(46:16):
It's never the first time we'vedone anything in this in this
world before you know, we canovercome any of this stuff.
So these people who want to runoff to canada and never do you
know, please, you know, let'sjust, let's just be realistic
about this.
It's a single election, it's asingle person.
It doesn't, at the end of theday, really matter all righty.
Tree (46:38):
And those are the words of toby and his opinion.
Good toby, all right.
So before we close, I reallywant to get to um today's perch
peak, and it's just a statementof what this particular episode
has meant for me as I reflect onit.
(46:59):
So, as we reach today's PerchPeak, let us pause to consider
what it means to stay loyal tosomething that may no longer
align with who we are, that mayno longer align with who we are.
Political parties Democrat,republican, libertarian and
beyond each carry decades, evencenturies, of history.
(47:21):
They represent ideologies,identities and traditions, but
at the heart of all of it, theydon't fully know us.
They don't know the intricaciesof our lives or our values that
shape our decision.
This reminds me of somethingfrom my own life, a moment that
(47:41):
shaped my views on labels andloyalty.
When I was a kid, someone Itruly loved was labeled by a
teacher in tarot out of the bluethat they were slow.
That broke my heart and justlike that, they accepted the
label and began to embody it.
They start failing, class afterclass, even though they have
(48:03):
never struggled before.
It broke my heart to see thishappen.
So the one day, as we werewalking home from school, I told
them you know the good thingabout labels you can always take
them.
You can take them off anytimeyou get to define yourself.
The only label you should everwear is the one that you choose.
(48:27):
That moment stayed with mebecause it reminds me of how
powerful labels can be and howliberating it is to realize you
have a choice to remove them.
There's a phrase we often hearvoting against our own interests
.
But who defines those interests?
(48:48):
For some, the truest interestisn't financial or material.
It's a matter of principle, ofa vision for a better world,
even if it means sacrificingsomething personal.
It's about standing forsomething greater than ourselves
, even if it doesn't align withwhat society deems is logical or
(49:12):
even practical.
But what if we could take a stepback from part of party loyalty
and ask ourselves why are westill here?
Are we sticking around forhabit, tradition, or because we
believe we have no other optionsI gave you 1717 options or we
(49:35):
truly align with what chosenparty represents today?
Maybe, instead of letting thepolitical label define us, we
can redefine our loyalties toreflect our truest value.
So, as we close the perch Pete,let's make room for new
perspectives.
So, as we close the perch Pete,let's make room for new
(50:01):
perspectives, one that allow usto look beyond party lines and
see ourselves clearly.
Let us consider that ourhighest loyalty might not be to
a party at all, but to the truthwe discover within ourselves,
because from the highestperspective we can truly find
clarity to make choices thatresonate with who we are and who
we aspire to be.
Remember, your perch isn't justa place to sit, it's a place to
(50:25):
seek higher perspective.
Until we meet again, take careBye.
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