May 28, 2024 • 48 mins
🎬 New Video Podcast Episode: The Power of Empathy in Rule-Breaking 🎬
Exploring Gender Stereotypes in Risk-Taking and Career Progression
In this illuminating episode, we explore the transformative role of empathy in challenging gender stereotypes and promoting bold career choices.Â
Inspired by the insightful words of Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, "Well-behaved women seldom make history," we offer a deeper understanding of what it takes to break free from traditional norms and forge a path to success.
Watch now to gain valuable insights into breaking barriers and leading with courage.Â
Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more empowering discussions!
#podcast #empathy #rulebreakers #riskmanagement #careerprogression #genderstereotypes #breakfree #
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Greetings.
First Family Welcome.
Today's show is.
I always get excited, but thisone I'm going to call it.
I'm going to call it before weget started.
I'm going to call this is myfavorite Until next week.
No, no, no, Until now.
So our topic.
(00:28):
Before I get to our topic, justa few housekeeping.
I'll make it quick and short.
This is.
I apologize last time for beinginconsistent.
We've been in transition, sowe're heading back to Michigan.
So this is our last podcast inAlabama until October.
So we'll be saying farewell toour lovely friend Phil here and
his amazing studio until we meetagain.
(00:48):
But, perch, family, I willstart doing and I'm saying it
now and now I'm putting it outthere.
I got to do it small shorts tokeep it consistent.
Small, yeah, I mean not doinglike the full anyway, anyway,
doing shorts, put it out thereand keep it consistent so it'll
probably just be me okay focus,okay focus school.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Is it okay?
We're ready.
Gotta play by the rules yes,speaking of rules.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Today's topic today is rule breaker.
You know, I feel like what'sthis song?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
that's pat benatar.
That's what phil's singingearlier.
Yes, it is, it is indeed.
Yes, it is heartbreaker dreammaker.
Yes, yes, that's that's no.
Phil was singing earlier.
That's not Pat Benatar, isn'tit?
No, it is Pat Benatar.
Yes, it is.
It is indeed Heartbreaker.
Yes, it is Heartbreaker.
Dream Maker.
Dream Maker.
Yes, that's Pat Benatar.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No, it was not a black person.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You can't put that to Luther.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Vandross.
Normally it's a black person.
Exactly, I'm pretty Rulebreaker.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like these socks?
Look at that.
Oh, I agree, rule breaker.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sorry, we do not do.
We don't do drugs at all, Idon't know what's going on with
this show today, but the subjectis rule breaker.
So, with intention, I want totalk about this and typically I
really try, with intention, towalk the line, try to be, when
we talk politics, bipartisan.
(02:06):
We talk about everything.
Try to be in the middle row,not calling anyone out, but on
this particular perch, I'mcalling out women today and it's
really a challenge because I'mcurious.
The first thing and I want toask you guys to ask yourselves,
when we said today's topic wasrule breaker, what was the first
thing that came to your mind?
So, before we get into that, Iwant to let you know I have a
(02:28):
shocking, a different way oflooking at it and before I get
to someone else who kind of well, I'll just say this part and
then I'll kick it to you, tobyBe clear though You're talking
about rules, not laws, right?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Do you have that in your?
How do I have to be?
Did I say law breaker?
Do you have that in your?
How do I have to be?
Did I say lawbreaker?
Well, everybody seems to go tolaws.
They go.
I'm not a rule breaker.
I always do the speed limit andyou're like that's the laws,
not the rules.
Back to you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So he asked me about be clear about something I never
stated.
So I'll be clear that I neverstated lawbreaker, I stated rule
breaker, great call out.
So and I was thinking, I saw Ihave the way that I kind of see
it what it meant to me and I hada divine revelation.
I'll share that towards the end.
But there's a TED Talk by CindyEckert called the DNA of Rule
(03:12):
Breaker and Cindy went on to sayand this is her definition,
give you a little context of whoCindy Eckert is.
Cindy is the woman you givecredit for creating the female
Viagra.
That's her claim to fame.
She actually was one of the 28inventors of the male Viagra.
She was one of that.
(03:32):
She sold that off and shecreated the female.
Don't want to get down therabbit hole, I don't even want
to Call out to.
Cindy, Call out or shout outToby.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Either way.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh my God, I don't even want to go.
You kill me using terms andthen don't apply them.
They work for me Because youdon't follow the rules.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I'm a rebel without a clue.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Without a clue, not a cause.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Stay on topic here.
It's hard Toby because you'relike a toddler.
It's like driving with ablindfold on.
You know how you take a toddlerout of public, but you can't
take your eyes off.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
The really can't enjoy yourself.
Are you out?
exactly oh, my god.
Anyway, the only reason I saidthat?
Because she went on to statethat there's two types of rule
breakers.
Hear me out on this one thosewho break the rules for personal
gain and those who break therules to change the game.
So, with that being said, shewent on also to state and
(04:32):
specifically call out women.
She, she said her research andher study shows that when women
break the rules, typicallytypically their dna is empathy
driven.
So when they break the rules,empathy typically applies and
that means that normally they'redoing it because, like fight
for justice or to speak up forthe little guy or to stand up
(04:54):
for other women.
So that's typically the underthe guys that she stated women
are rule breakers.
I have my own.
I agree with a lot that shesays, but I have my own view.
But before I go there, toby,what say you?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, again, not knowing where this is going to
go.
First of all, shout out to theFlorida Panthers.
It has nothing to do with rules, but Florida Panthers in the
conference finals again, whoop,whoop.
Once they make the conferencefinals, we're going to be
rocking the Panthers jersey Justwish they weren't in Florida.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh, stop it.
Anyway, go go, Stop it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So, anyway, a couple of things that I think are
important.
You've already made thedistinction between rules and
laws.
And rules, everybody says thatrules are made to be broken, and
I would argue rules are made tobe revisited, and in fact I
want to use a sports analogyEvery year, all the major sports
teams revisit their rules.
Rules are not made to be static, they're not made to just be
left out there without beingchallenged.
(05:45):
So every year, the NationalHockey League, the NBA, major
League Baseball changes therules, and not necessarily small
.
I mean Major League Baseball.
You know, put in a pitch clockso you have to pitch faster, so
the game would move faster.
So they set a rule to try tomeet an ends, and then what
they'll do is they'll goevaluate it to see if it works,
and society should be the sameway.
The only other thing I wouldsay is people love to talk about
.
I'm a rule breaker, I'm achange agent, I'm I'm a
(06:11):
disruptor.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I'm a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I put two pieces of cheese on my cheeseburger.
I mean stop it.
You know, I didn't park betweenthe lines, I actually put the
tire on the line because I'm adisruptor.
I mean all of this stuff ishogwash.
I mean there are, there, arethere are people that are
disruptors, and then the other98 of people that are like, I
tied my shoes differently.
I'm a change agent.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh go, anyway, go ahead back to you jim, okay, you
, you sure you got it out,because I don't know, it took me
a little punchy.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
That's why today is sponsored by mountain dew.
So anyway, I wish I wish cokesponsorship.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Um, so I do I.
I I wish it was that simple.
But what?
What I do?
The reason why?
So I'll give you some context.
I've really been struggling withthis because, like you said,
major difference between alawbreaker and a rule breaker.
But there is no definition fora rule breaker.
Let's just start.
There is literally nodefinition for a rule breaker,
(07:02):
so it's some crap that somebodymade up and someone made up and
gave it meaning.
So therefore, when I hear Iwant to get her name right Cindy
Acker, when she says, well,women break the rules for
different reasons, I get thatWorking in corporate America.
You see it all the time.
You see some people, and it'stypically men, it's not women.
(07:23):
You see it all the time, youknow you.
You see some people, and it'stypically me, and it's not women
.
And and and typically, when yousee women who are treacherous
in corporate America, what I'veseen and of course, I haven't
seen all the corporate Americais they bought into that belief.
They bought into the beliefthat I have to have these male
traits in order to succeed.
I can't be authentically whoI'm created to be.
So I, I have to be like a man,you know, to be out there, and
(07:46):
then there's people like me.
So I am the type of person thatI am a rule follower to a
certain extent, meaning I followthe law and then I speed, so
then I don't follow, I don'tfollow, I do, and I know that I
do.
So I can't say, you know, I waslike, well, I'm not a thief, I
don't steal, I don't do allthose things.
(08:07):
But when I do break the rules,from a legal perspective,
normally I'm going a little.
I got a heavy foot, okay,that's still, but where I
realize that one the reason whyI say I'm calling out women
specifically, because what I doaccept the fact that and Cindy
didn't state this level, becauseshe, she call it empathy and
(08:28):
I'm going to call it somethingelse I think we all have a North
Star.
I think we just do.
We all have it and if we chooseto pay attention to our inner
compass, that guides us.
But what I see more thananything and women, that's
listening, challenge yourselfand dig in yourself and see
where this lines up with youwhat I'm about to say.
We have most of the time, ifyou're a woman and you're in
(08:49):
business, especially incorporate america, consistently
we've sat in rooms and didn'tagree what things they say, but
we don't speak up, you know, andif we do speak up, it's
normally after the collectivehave spoken up.
We need two or three otherpeople to speak up before we're
the first one to put ourselvesout there.
I have sat in plenty of roomswhere you know I'm a woman and
(09:09):
other women turn to me and sayyou know, I couldn't have said
that and kept my job.
I couldn't have done that andkept my job.
So the same things men areapplauded for doing, women are
typically sometimes bastardized,you know, for doing it.
So therefore we have beenconditioned to believe that.
You know, being a rule breakeris a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I'm going to challenge that one.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And so before you challenge it, let me just say
this so if there is nodefinition, if it's not in the
dictionary, if Merriam-Websterdidn't say because if you look
up breaker, everything is in adictionary, icebreakeram-webster
didn't say because if you lookup breaker, everything is in a
dictionary.
Ice breaker there was some.
It was some different.
I was like I thought it wasslang and it was all kinds of
breakers in addiction Heartbreaker, house breaker.
(09:54):
I was like what's a housebreaker?
I was like all of these things.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Circuit breaker.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
But not, but not a rule breaker, and that's because
these are man-made rules and ifyou're a woman and I'm going
there if these are man-maderules and you are a woman, the
minute you don't acquiesce,you're a rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My turn.
Yes, okay, I have a lot more tosay.
Oh, I know you do.
No, you do, but we've got tocorrect this first of all.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Correct it, of course , or don't have to correct it.
No, oh, we don't have tocorrect it no, you just have to
make your.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Women are by nature agreeable creatures and men, by
nature are disagreeablecreatures.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I disagree, but anyway Big shot.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And so women prefer to be agreeable.
If you look at the way womenresolve conflict, it's through
less aggressive means than menresolve conflict by and large.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Can I just ask you a question about that, though?
Why do you call it naturethough?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Because I think we are naturally wired that way.
Women are nurturers and men arenot.
So women, by nature, tend to bemore compromising and agreeable
.
It's what I've said from thebeginning.
I think women should be thepoliticians of the world and run
the world because they're, bynature, more agreeable and more
willing to compromise.
Where men are more aggressiveand they're like I have to have
it my way and that's the way itworks.
(11:08):
So where I'm going with this is, for whatever reason American
business covets that, go getthem.
Tiger aggressive nature, bendthe rules if you have to break
them.
Okay, you know that kind ofthing.
And when women are by natureagreeable, it's one of the
reasons, in my humble opinion,that women don't climb the
ladder as quickly as men do,because the trait of being
aggressive and sticking yourneck out there and doing those
(11:30):
things is a coveted trait,whether we like it or not.
In business we look at people,you know.
You look at some of the peoplethat we revere in American
business and they're the onesthat were trailblazers.
They broke this rule and theychanged that, and they did this
and and they changed that andthey did this.
And so I think that, by nature,women don't move up the ladder
as quickly.
One of the reasons.
There are obviously a lot more,but that they tend to be, by
nature, compromisers and moreagreeable, and for whatever
(11:51):
reason, in American business wecovet people that break the
rules.
So, there you have it.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
The only thing I have to say is because it's your
opinion and just like mine.
We're both entitled to it.
Entitled to it, but but where I, where I?
What I have to say is you can'tsay nature because
scientifically, because when yousay nature, nature is tied to
science and it's it's based onscientific evidence.
Scientifically, what we knowfor sure about learned behaviors
, there's only two that wouldcome and we all come here with.
(12:18):
There's no scientific evidence.
There's something in the, the,in the gene of a girl that says
she's going to do this.
As far as traits, charactertraits, there's nothing.
We come here scientificallywith the same two fears, that's,
the fear of falling and thefear of loud noises.
(12:39):
So if you take an infant andyou go like this, you'll see
that infant shape, becausethat's what we came here with,
and loud noises.
If you make a loud noise, anewborn baby is.
If they hearing it.
Just just hear me out for asecond I'm going to ask you one
question just going to jump.
So scientifically, those sheertraits are the only thing we
come here with.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Everything else is learned behavior what
scientifically, when it comesdown to traits?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
and we're not talking about physicality we're talking
about from simply behavior andtrait.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I would ask one simple question if men had to
raise children, how many wouldget past the age of three?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
but that's no.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I'm gonna take the over under about five but we get
past the age of three.
But because men don't have thetolerance, they're aggressive,
they can't.
They don't have the tolerance,they're aggressive, they don't
have that capability.
I believe inherently Now thereare obviously men that are
wonderfully loving and caring.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Tell it to all the single fathers that raise kids
from infancy.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I believe that they have to do their very best and
step outside of their comfortzone to do those things.
In most cases, I would argue,that does not come naturally.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I hate to tell you this Newsflash and women cannot
like it.
You know it's being a motherdoes not necessarily come with
maternal instincts, it's.
I know women personally whoaren't maternal.
They just aren't and they willtell you that.
And again, these are all.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I won't say stereotypes, but for the most
part, if you took a men and 100women and you studied them
intensely, you would find thatmen, by nature, are more prone
to make snap decisions, prone toaggression, prone to more
violent behavior, than women are.
And again, I didn't do anyscientific analysis of that, but
there seem to be enoughscientific things out there that
(14:20):
support that.
And all I'm saying is thatthat's why men, by nature, tend
to be more rule breakers.
And, quite honestly, womencomplain about men being rule
breakers, but they could do itthemselves, but it isn't in
their nature to do so.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No.
So again, because we don'targue, we perch right.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Right.
So perch on this, and I'mperching higher than she is too.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Perch on this.
You know, and I've done another, when I did a talk with other
women before and it was on thethe way we raised typically
depend on society where you live.
You're bringing boys.
I typically, historically it'sgotten a lot better raised,
different from girls.
Girls are raised and it'sgetting better.
(15:00):
But for centuries, to be safe,to be safe, what it is Don't
jump, don't be a lady, bepristine, right, right, and
that's the way they are raised.
Boys were raised to be risktakers, go to the highest point
of the monkey bar and jump off,do all of these things.
So, therefore, when it comesdown to breaking the rules, you
(15:20):
literally and I'm going to statethis and I wrote this down, and
I'm going to state this, and Iwrote this down, and I did not
want to lose this thoughtbecause I know this may be
controversial and that's not mypoint, it's just food for
thought I believe that you aredesigned, we are designed to win
.
This is for women.
I'm speaking to women when Isay this you are designed to win
, but you are programmed to lose.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I would rephrase that to your team, but that's my
phrase.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I know Now.
Don't rephrase my phrase.
Come up with your own phrase.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I would just say, women are not even competing.
Because, they're not willing totake a risk.
When it comes to things likethat, they conform.
By nature, women tend toconform, and that's a challenge,
not all.
Again, you've said it beforeYou've had women come to you and
say why don't you say something?
Why don't you say something?
Because they look at you asmore of an alpha female.
(16:11):
But women, by nature, tend tobe passive and do not challenge
those things as much as men do,and that's why men are
considered go-getters.
And again, this is a stereotypethat we have to get past in
this country, because a man whobreaks the rules is looked at as
a go-getter, a climber, and awoman who breaks the rules is
considered what Difficult.
(16:34):
It's a horrible stereotype, butJordan Peterson did an
interesting piece about thiswhere he said there are like 10
traits that make men moresuccessful than women and they
tend to be traits that are moreaggressive traits and that, by
nature, is why men tend toprogress through organizations
at a higher rate than women.
And you can argue with them.
I think they make a lot ofsense, but they're not, of
(16:56):
course.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh, I am trying not to swear at you, Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, go for it.
Knock yourself out.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Because what?
So?
What we're not going to do isthe fact that.
So let's speak truth to power,because men create these rules,
corporations, men rule the world, they run the world.
That's just a fact.
From a financial standpoint,from a corporate standpoint,
they are the leaders.
So these fake rules werecreated by men.
(17:23):
Now rules are fake.
Yeah, because we just talkedabout it.
Well, okay, I'll do away withthe word fake and I'll meet you
where you are.
You said that rules were meantto be changed.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yes, they are so these changeable rules.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Is that better?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
So these evolving rules?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
whatever makes you happy, Perfect makes me happy.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Because I'm all about making you happy.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's right, because you're the man.
Oh, stop it Anywho.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
What are you making for dinner?
You really don't want to eatanything.
I'm cooking tonight, so are yougoing to trust?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
me, so this will be my last episode.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
It's been great talking to you.
You made me lose my train ofthought.
I was really upset.
No, because so.
Men are the creator of theserules.
Because we've already said onethere's no such thing.
This, there's no definition.
So when you look up and yougoogle rule breaker on the
internet, you get all theseOutlandish reasons of what a
rule rule breaker is, and mostof them were written by men too.
So and then so if you get some,if you're them, if you are the
(18:22):
one in power, that means you getto move the goalposts whenever
you feel like it.
You get to say now, thisapplies, and that's why, all of
a sudden, in business, you know,disruption became a sexy thing.
I'm a disruptor and a false.
I'm a disruptor, and there's adefinition for disruptor.
It was never a positive one, youknow so, but I'm saying you get
(18:50):
to make the rules.
So therefore, comma, if you, inturn, as a man, can't say to a
woman well, the reason womendon't succeed and the reason
women struggle, or the reasonwomen is because they don't
possess these traits, and whatI'm saying is they possess all
of those traits.
I am everlast one of thosethings.
I can be aggressive, I could bedocile, I could be passive, I
could let a lot go.
I can stand firm, I could doall of these things, but one
(19:10):
thing I know is there is a levelof intimidation when women show
up in the same capacity thatmen do.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So then, in turn, if you know that and if you agree
with that, how then do you sayto a woman, to America, to
whoever's listening, you knowthere is a reason why.
And put that on women and notput it on the men that created
these rules.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
No, but there's still a great deal.
There's a great deal a modicumof sexism in a lot of corporate
businesses.
Well, you're in supply chain.
I mean, I can't think of onethat is more dominated by old
white men than supply chain.
And so a message of anaggressive businesswoman pushing
back against the rule orchallenging, you know, the
status quo, is not as wellreceived there as, say, in the
(19:52):
apparel industry, where there'sa lot more dominant female
executives who have done thatand have actually molded that
industry in such a manner.
And that's why, again, you know,I know we're not talking about,
you know, equality here in thisconversation, but more about
rule breaking.
But there are greaterachievements that are made
across different industriesbased on how they're dominated,
(20:13):
and you said it before, most ofthese rules have been made over
the years by men, but there havebeen greater forays into
changing those by women to more,I would say, more sensible in
many cases in those industrieswhere women have been highly
successful in reaching executivelevels.
So there you go, that's mystory and I'm sticking to it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, but where is the accountability?
But this is I don't.
It's not that I'm trying to becombative, this is what I know
for sure.
So let me just let me make itpersonal and put my and I'll
take the hits for this one.
What I know for sure is, evenin business, I've been in
corporate America for 30 yearsand I'm seen in a lot of
(20:53):
different lights, but oneconsistent light is, you know,
sometimes like being aggressive.
I've heard that multiple timesand in each time I have to say
this I said how am I aggressive?
First of all, I'm in business.
I don't yell, I'm not swearing,I'm literally asking questions.
(21:15):
I'm literally looking forclarity in a statement.
I've come with solutions.
Where is the aggression?
But I think you're making mypoint.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You've had a career in supply chain in an industry
dominated by older white men.
So when you act in a way thatanother industry might look at
you as being a change agent, areal change agent but they look
at that as a threat to thestatus quo.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
But when I'm showing up in the same capacity as the
man that you want to make yourleader like, oh you know, he
take charge, he solutions Right.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So when I possess these, same traits.
In that industry.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And I don't come.
And this is the part that Ineed you to see, because when
you make statements about whywomen aren't successful, and
that's just your opinion.
It is, and I want to clean itup, because so be.
I could see a lot of womenpissed off at you right, that's
okay, but no, no, no letterscoming no, and the reason why I
say that is because I know youand I know your character.
(22:15):
But what I do have to say isthat saying is because that
that's what women are often told.
Women are often told well, youknow, you just have to, and
there are some, some data tosupport what you say.
So I'm not going to lie.
There are some data that saywomen are typically less likely
to ask for a raise, they're lesslikely to speak up.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
All of that's factual and true.
So you're not saying thosethings, you're saying are
absolutely fact.
And don't make this sound likeit's a bad thing either Women
are much more empathetic.
They show more empathy than mendo.
They make better depending onthe jobs and the opportunities.
As I said before, I think,politically speaking and we're
not going into politics I thinkwomen are by far more stable
(22:55):
emotionally and in terms ofbeing willing to compromise and
meet halfway than men will everbe, and so this is not, by any
stretch of imagination, a dig onwomen at all.
In fact, a lot of those traitsI covet.
I wish I had that same abilityto be empathetic in cases where
I see other people doing so.
And again, these are not withall men or with all women, but
(23:17):
there are certain industrieswhere women have been highly
successful and they've shownthat they've been capable of
making changes, and otherorganizations and other
industries not so quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's all I'm trying to say of making changes, and
other organizations and otherindustries not so quickly.
That's all I'm trying to sayand you know, and for that,
because we've been on air, Ijust want to call out because
your last statement led me intoanother point I wanted to make
too, because what you said is anabsolute fact Some rules only
apply in certain industries, incertain areas, and there are
certain other industries thattotally break them all.
(23:46):
Perfect example factually,hollywood breaks more rules than
any other industry.
For business and, case in point, what I want to say.
I looked this up so right now,in business, often not only do
they want a bachelor's degree wesay this all the time you see
companies now wanting a master's, even PhD, like for what?
You're not a doctor or lawyer,whatever, and some of our
(24:18):
rescinded, the top, topgo-getters in hollywood are all
high school dropouts.
That's just a fact.
Some of them barely want to,you know, and I and I even, with
all fairness, kind of lookedaround and tried to give you
know more entertainers than justactors or whatever.
Giselle Bundchen dropped out ofschool at 14.
Ryan Gossett 17.
Cameron Diaz 16.
Nicole Kidman 16.
Beyonce, 15.
Jc just said he bounced aroundin a high school.
(24:38):
We don't know what he did.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
That thank god they're not working on the space
for Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Jennifer Lawrence 14.
Rihanna 16.
And it's billionaires in hereRihanna's a billionaire, Jay-Z
is a billionaire, Beyonce closeto a billionaire.
Disney, Walt Disney, 16.
And so when people say you knowthis, and then you look back
and I want to just do a quickcomparison, because Jeff Bezos
graduated summa cum laude fromPrinceton University, while Bill
(25:05):
Gates dropped out of HarvardSlacker, but no, making a
greater point about rulebreakers, and this is important
for us to hear because, first ofall, and for women, in order
for us to grow, we have to.
And my doctor I won't say hername, and I told her I won't say
her name and I'll bring this up.
I just left her and I asked her.
(25:25):
I said, when you hear, and andshe's young and she's smart and
she's just on, it just in herown practice and I said to her
Toby, I hit you in the knee.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I heard you um I said to her.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I said my podcast today is about rule breaker.
When you hear rule breaker, I'mnot with you.
When you hear rule breaker,what do you think?
And she immediately recoiled.
She was like oh.
And she was like and then shewas like you know, if you?
And then she looked at me likeI'm like like first of all, so
I'm not gonna say your name.
Second, if you don't want me tobring this up, I won't even
(25:57):
bring it up.
And she was like well, if youask me that cuz she was like
what a first thing came in mymind.
It's like bad boy, someone thatdoesn't follow the rules, just
okay.
And then I said to her I saidbut you're a rule breaker.
And she said she was like no,you would have been.
You would have thought that Icalled her like oh, my god like
this, you know, just a harlot orsomething?
(26:19):
she was no, no, I followed Idon't, I do.
And she started talking allthese legalities.
I said that's a lawbreaker.
I said the mere, the mere fact.
Just think about it.
And I really women, I reallywant you to hear me on this,
really hear me.
Just think about it.
Less than 50 years ago, itwasn't even you know, for women
to work was something you know.
It was like women.
The rule is you stay home,raise the baby, care for the
(26:42):
house, tender for that.
That was the rule.
So any person, any womanoutside of that, where black
women didn't have that optionwe've been working for that.
We're tired, just by the waybut any woman outside of that
was considered a rule breaker.
So now this is where it'sconfusing and this is where, as
women, we have to get over thesestereotypes and these things
that they put on us for sayingand my thing is your rule is
(27:06):
your, your north star, whateveryour compass is, and and and.
When you go against that, youknow, then you're not being true
to yourself.
So, people, if someone tell youwhere, you know you're not a
good girl and you know you waityour turn, or you speak what's
spoken to, or you know, and evenin business, the study shows
and research said, even whenwomen don't agree with something
(27:26):
before they break the rules,and when they do speak up or
when they're given credit, sayyou say hey, tricia, you won
Employee of the Year, here'syour award.
You know what the rules, thestudies say, women are turned
around and do Give credit to aman that was in it.
Well, I can't take credit forthis, you know.
Thank you, but they have tofind somebody.
I think you're making my casefor me.
No, but I said I agree, I saidsome things.
(27:47):
You said were absolutely Somethings.
Yeah, fact.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, absolutely everything was.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Absolutely not.
And I said you can't put someof these things on women because
when they are the things thatmen are, that successful men are
, it's not well received.
So that part.
So if you say one thing,received, so that part.
So if you say one, thing and soone of the things that we have
(28:12):
to recognize.
So did I get off message.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You talk about truck to tractor tires or something
over there.
But I didn't quite you knowhanding out.
Academy Awards and who went tocollege so that I didn't know
what that had to do.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I was literally making it applying to how
there's different rules fordifferent areas of business.
An actor you have to have twoarms, two legs and be sexy.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I mean, what more than that?
No, but it's not just acting.
I was just saying, I wasagreeing with you.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You said supply chain had more of this, and then
there's different rules forentertainment.
That was, who manages that?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So I don't know who manages Hollywood.
I mean, there is no necessarilyskill sets, I think, other than
I said two arms is too much, Itake my credit back.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I was just trying to get credit for something.
Anyway, go At some point.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It will come back around.
But all I was trying to get atbefore is that rules.
There's a spectrum of rules,right?
So some rules are fairlyserious and some rules are just
quite casual.
But we all live every day.
Everything we do is a rule.
We park between the lines whenwe're at an airline terminal.
We queue up, you know, to gothrough security.
We, you know, we wait patientlybefore our row number is called
(29:14):
, all those kind of things.
And those are just rules andyou know, you always see people
that break them.
The other rules aren't meantfor them.
We joke about it all the time.
The person has to get off theplane first because they're more
important than anybody else.
So people do break the rules.
The question is, some rules aremore egregious than others.
Some rules could potentiallyput people's lives at risk.
You know, if you open the, youknow the door on an aircraft
(29:35):
when it's up in the air, that'sa rule you probably shouldn't
want to break, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But then there are other ones, like you know,
unless you're on a new Boeingand they just automatically come
off.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Exactly, it's a new feature of the Boeing aircraft,
which is the instant parachutingfeature.
Yes, but I mean so.
To me, rules should beconstantly looked at, and you
know, even like an airline'saround the mind because I've
been flying so much recently.
But you know, you look at theway the airline industry works
and Southwest Airlines isrelooking their rules because
they used to have a rule.
(30:02):
In fact they still have a rulethat says, if you call in
advance and say that you needmore time, special assistance to
board the airplane, that youcan get on first.
Well, guess what people aredoing?
People are calling in andsaying you know, I have a
hangnail, I need specialassistance.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I'm sure they didn't say they have a hangnail.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You know, sometimes I see shadows in my eyes so I
need to get on early.
I see shadows in my eyes so Ineed to get on early.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I see dead people.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
You know, I see dead people, I need to get on early,
all these kind of things.
And then they get on the listand all of a sudden, a person
who has followed the rules iswaiting in line and they say all
the people that have specialdisabilities.
And 6,000 people get on theplane.
So what's happened?
People have found ways to breakthe system, break the rules, so
now it's up to Southwest to nowsay okay, how do we put that
(30:47):
back and get to the spirit ofwhat we were trying to do and
make it so that really only thepeople that need to do it do it.
So that's why I said rules areever-changing, they're
evolutionary and we look at thatin all forms of life.
Rules that existed 20 years agodon't exist today, and so to me
there is no problem withchallenging rules, and I think
(31:07):
anybody should be able tochallenge rules.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So I'm going to have a squirrel moment and so I'm
going to call my own stuff outlike squirrel.
I'm going to get off topic.
I think it's funny as F If youguys, if you haven't looked at
it, just Google Southwestairline people, seat holding and
people have come up with themost creative ways to hold seats
.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
To break the rules.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
So what they'll do is they'll pay to get on early.
One person will pay andthere'll be a big party and
they'll put different things ina seat and say and somebody's
sitting there.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I had a hip replacement a while ago and I
was traveling through theairport with a cane and a guy
came up to me and goes that'sbrilliant.
So what do you mean?
It's brilliant, he goes.
You probably get on the planeearly, don't you?
And I said I could.
He goes, I'm going to starttraveling with a cane, I can get
on early and I'm like so peoplefind ways to break rules.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Well, this one lady you got to look for this.
I could not stop laughing whenI saw this.
This one lady wanted to,because you know, Southwest,
that you bring your bags on andthe overhead you should put in
the link for this video.
It's very funny she got up andlaid in the overhead.
So nobody.
First of all, good for you, Icouldn't fit.
(32:13):
Second of all, what the like,seriously.
But anyway, back to the title,To my rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Now back to our show.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
That people go to some crazy ways.
Breaking rules can be fine.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
At times it could be dangerous, but there's never an
issue with challenging the rulesand the status quo, because the
world is constantly changing.
You know, 10 years ago wedidn't have self-driving cars
and so people say don't takeyour hands off the wheel.
And now you watch commercialswhere they're going like this
and watching the car.
So it's like constantly havingto challenge rules in our
(32:44):
workplace and all that.
And you know, I work in therestaurant industry and I'll
walk into a restaurant and saywhy do you do things that way?
Well, we've always done thingsthat way.
It's this tribal knowledge thatjust gets handed down from year
after year and you look at itand say, well, you know, there
are probably easier ways to doit now.
And people just fall into thistrap of following rules.
And sometimes it's healthy tochallenge those, understanding
that at the end of the day youmay leave them the same, but it
(33:06):
never hurts to revisit rules.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But what I'm afraid of and the reason why I chose to
talk about this topic because Idon't see rule breakers as
necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
If you are standing up for justice, if you are
standing up for yourself.
If you don't speak for you, whowill?
If you don't stand up for you,who will?
If you're in a position ofleadership and you're a woman
and you see things that youdon't agree with, your voice is
just as powerful as anyone elsein this room.
But I do have to say and Ireally because I didn't want to
(33:44):
go there, but I wouldn't even beokay in my own spirit if I
didn't go there and the reasonwhy I say I'm really challenging
women, because we are as womenin America, we are watching
things go reverse, back to ourproductive rights, but then DEI
is diversity, equity andinclusion.
Factually, women benefit fromthat more than anything.
(34:07):
And then that's going away.
And so my thing is and theserules were made by men.
So when men in corporationsdecided to make DEI a focus, to
make DEI part of their corporatestance, and then the government
and everything else.
Corporations don't have tofollow the government,
especially if they're a privatecorporation, but they're
choosing to do these thingsbecause, guess what?
(34:29):
We're not speaking up, we'renot using our voices, we're not
making ourselves heard, and ithas to come for us, and so
that's why we really have tolook at this rule breaker in a
more serious light now, becauseit's not a bad thing for if this
is something you really believein, and if this is something
(34:51):
you really want, and if this issomething you really want.
If we don't, it starts withourselves.
If we don't stand up and andnot worry about, um, going
against the grain and not worryabout and, and, because we're
not doing it for the sake of,you know, just being rebel
rousers.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
We're doing it because we believe it's the
right thing to do and the rightthing to say, and I know we
haven't done a podcast on DEIbecause I don't think anybody
and again I don't want to gointo DEI with a great degree,
but I don't think anybodydisagrees with the concept of
DEI.
There may be some questionsabout how it executes, but I
think you're absolutely right bysaying there's no problem with
challenging rules and being thatperson to challenge them and
(35:23):
understand and look at the worldin a manner that says rules are
meant to change and I don'twant to say meant to be broken,
you know, but are meant tochange as we move along.
And so is it right the way weevaluate, you know, scores or
grades coming from high schools?
Is it fair to all people thatthey're evaluated on the same
scale?
Is it fair that the way Harvardaccepts their students?
(35:47):
And what if all of a suddenHarvard says, just to take them
as an example, you know, we'rejust going to take the top 50
scores across the country andthose are not evenly distributed
.
Let's say that 80% of those areAsian, american and 5% are
Caucasian and 15% are black.
Is that good?
Or does that break a rule ofDEI that says no, no, no, you've
(36:07):
got to normalize that, you'vegot to take, you know.
And so all of a sudden, rulescan be challenging because they
tend to sometimes get in the wayof what you're trying to
accomplish, and so I think weall need to be fair and not put
names to programs instead ofsaying what we're trying to
accomplish is we're trying tomake sure that all people have
opportunity equality ofopportunity.
(36:28):
We talked about this equalityof opportunity versus outcome
and not put together programsand rules that hamper that
capability from occurring.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I'm lost.
So you're saying a problem withDEI is that they put a name to
it?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
No, but that it structures a and again.
We're not going to talk aboutit in this program.
You know what?
Let's just get out because it'stoo serious of a topic for us.
Oh, we could talk about thatfor hours.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, but I do before we get out of here.
In my opinion, I made a reallypowerful statement without
giving any context.
So when I said to women youwere designed to win, but you
were programmed to lose, I knowyou could say that could mean a
thousand things.
Why would you say that I'm awoman all day long?
So that applies to me too, 24-7.
Meaning yes.
(37:08):
I don't take a day off.
No, I don't.
So I say you were designed tomean and the reason why I
specifically address women onthis is because we all are the
architects of our own lives.
We just start.
You can choose not to.
We all get to decide.
You know, this is where I wantto be and you can work towards
all of this.
We are the architects of ourown lives.
(37:30):
So, by design, that life is whatyou make of it.
Now, it doesn't mean becauseyou're a woman, you're going to
have extra obstacles.
It doesn't mean you have to bethree times better than men and
do it in heels, going backwards.
All of those factors are true,but still we have a hand in the
design and the creation of whatour world is going to look like
and how it is.
(37:50):
So that means and if you had topick, I hope you pick a winning
hand.
So we are designed to win butprogrammed to lose.
Meaning.
We come here because we'rewomen, you know.
And we come here because we'rewomen, you know.
And we come here at adisadvantage.
We come here with these, youknow, less pay.
We come here, that's just.
These things are already thethe.
(38:11):
The minute you born as a womanis something that that's.
Am I lying?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I mean no, those facts, yes, but we can cover it.
We literally don't have enoughtime to go into.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Don't open pandora's box with five minutes left so
what I mean by saying yourprogram to to lose is because,
as you can see and this is aone-year, we did agree on it we
kind of take on those tropes, wekind of you know, not, don't
speak up.
We kind of like you know, whenwe do do well, we turn around
and give someone else credit.
You know, credit, you know, andso that's a programming.
(38:47):
That programming is at adeficit to us.
So that's what I mean when yousaid, when I say you're designed
to win but programmed to lose.
Because even when you show up asyour authentic self and
speaking your authentic voice,being a woman is off-putting to
some men.
It's like you know to like whoare you to challenge me, or like
you know who are you toquestion me or who are you to
question me.
I've gotten it my entire lifeand I was just saying this to my
sister Monica.
(39:08):
I said you know, I used to sitin church and I couldn't just
sit in Bible study with everyoneelse because in a black church
they like what we call call andresponse.
So when a pastor say something,he expected amen.
And so I think, oh, you're asmaller church and everybody's
saying amen and you're justsitting there.
Then you look like the defiantone, I look like the rule
breaker and I was like I am nottrying to break the rules.
(39:29):
That was not amen worthy.
I did not agree with you.
Maybe an A, but not amen.
I could say amen like, hey,what you talking about?
Because I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Or lowercase amen.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
But the point being, you know, and that's how I am
wired, I was like I just youknow.
And they said, you know, theblack church would tell you when
they, at a certain time inchurch, they'll say stand on
your feet and repeat after me,and I was like I don't even know
what you're about to say, no,I'm not standing to my feet and
I'm not.
And then so naturally I'mconsidered a rule breaker.
I'm like no, it just make itmake sense to me.
(40:01):
You know, when it makes senseto me, I will follow the rules.
Now, in business, this is whatI would say to leadership all
the time.
I am never going to go againstthe final call, and if you're in
charge and it's your call tomake the final call, I am going
to perform whatever it is youtell me to do.
But if I don't agree and Ithink it's a better call, I will
(40:25):
be the one to say you know what.
You have the final say, but notjust for the record.
This is my vision and it's theway I see it, and I know that's
just who I am that's consideredbeing a rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I was like no, Well, but I think there's change about
if you look at organizations ormovements like Conscious
Capital, capitalism and greenerorganizations more friendly
organizations.
I spent several years of mycareer in retail and retail is
dominated by senior executiveswho are women and sadly, and I
mean this most sincerely.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I know where you're going.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Sadly, they act like men and it's horrible because it
really brings to light the factthat women believe that to be
successful, they have to actlike complete assholes, like men
do, and that's just socounterproductive.
And it really taught mesomething and I said you know,
women in retail don't act anydifferently than men in
automotive or in technology orwhatever.
(41:15):
But it just seems so counterbecause we Toby, you know looks
at women as being much moreaccommodating and inclusive and
collaborative and all thosethings.
And what we've taught people isto be successful in business,
you have to be this dog-eat-dog,and I think we need to change
that paradigm because there'snow clearly case studies out
there and data to support youdon't have to behave that way in
(41:37):
business.
You can break rules andrecreate them in a manner that
makes the world and theseorganizations more inclusive,
more collaborative and moresuccessful.
So I push back a little bit onwhat you said, which is women
are geared to fail.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I didn't say geared to fail, I said programmed.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Programmed to fail To me in the current model.
I think you're right.
I think the model is changingand I think there are enough
people that are now tired ofthat paradigm and are saying we
need to change the rules on howwe conduct business, how we
treat people in our business,how we conduct how we, how we
show up in the marketplace andall those things.
And this is this is notrevolutionary, it's evolution.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
It's going to take a long time but but let me just
say this, and I do have, I wantto say this point.
I have one more point and thenwe're out of here.
Um, we're out of here.
I do want to say about that,about it's changing, and it's
changing do you believe it'schanging.
I'm concerned, I do, I think andI hate to say it because it
sounds cliche, but in my mindand my spirit right now I can't
(42:34):
think two steps forward, twosteps back, because we do.
We can't acknowledge the factthat.
How long has the WNBA beenaround?
And it takes someone like youknow you have Asia Wilson, you
have women who have been dynamicand fantastic but it takes
someone like one of the mainleaders, Caitlin Clark, to come
out and outscore the men and putup numbers like that, to, like
(42:57):
you know, maybe we need to lookat it.
It takes at the time and youand I talked about this when a
soccer team will bring in moremoney than the men and filling
the stadiums and winning forthem, to say, well, maybe we
look at it.
So you can't.
I will not applaud a fish forswimming.
To me, that is not change.
To me, that is when thefinancial implications is moving
(43:18):
the needle.
And to me, when change comes iswhen you and I don't get to
make those rules right.
We can say, well, Tricia'schanging, the why it's changing
is irrelevant.
But the problem with that is ifI take that stance and say,
okay, let's just accept the win,let's just accept the fact that
they made progress in that area.
Here is the problem with thatwhen they stop beating the men
(43:40):
and when they stop, and we sawthat, filling the seats in there
and the men and when they stop,and we saw that filling the
seats in there and it goes backto the man get the bigger salary
.
It goes back to the way it was,Because even though when the
women in soccer were killing it,their money went up, you know,
and took a bump, but that'stemporary.
They're nowhere near the manand they won't be, and they will
literally have to play at thelevel or outplay the men just to
(44:01):
get close to their salary.
So when you're saying you'rechanging, when I'm taking a step
forward just to keep going back, when my reproductive rights
are staying back, when DEI isgone or whatever, as a woman I
cannot say we're progressing.
That looks like regression tome.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I just think you're confusing two different things.
One is certainly a financialconversation, which is, you know
, should.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It's a collective body of women.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
But should women have control of their reproductive
rights?
Absolutely, I mean, and thefact that the government never
stepped in was a major overreachby the government.
I'm going to leave that onethere for some other podcasts.
When it comes to the financialaspect of why women athletes are
paid less than male athletes,it's purely a financial
conversation.
I mean, if the day that awomen's WNBA game draws the same
(44:43):
viewership, audience andinterest from sponsors, there
will be parity.
But this idea that because womenplay the same game as a man,
that they should be paid thesame amount, what if it was the
other way around?
What if women's collegebasketball or basketball was
much more successful?
Would a man then turn aroundand say, well, I do the same
sport as a woman, shouldn't I bepaid the same?
It's a financial conversation.
And well, I do the same sportas a woman, shouldn't I be paid
(45:04):
the same?
It's a financial conversation.
And I hope I really do.
I hope, whether it's CaitlinClark or some of the other
people you mentioned, put theWNBA on the same trajectory that
the NBA is on and that parityis achieved, because all of a
sudden, people want to watch thegame, because it's entertaining
.
It's a great game now.
It didn't used to be.
We've got to be fair.
It didn't used to be as just,incredibly talented as these
players are now.
(45:24):
I hope they fill the arenas, Ihope that the television rights
come and I hope the sponsorshipscome and I hope.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
with all of that, the financial model changes.
And I just want to state thisand you're right, before we go,
because this happened today andI told her I would bring it up.
So my daughter, Taylor, shoutout to her she's writing a book
and I'm putting it out in theuniverse.
It's going to be a New YorkTimes bestseller.
Because that's just me, and ifI have the power to put
something in the universe, I'mgoing to put greatness out there
, make it big.
But I told her in this, blessher heart, she's in a writer's
(45:54):
group with a bunch of seniorsand no judgment on seniors at
all, and this is not an attackon seniors, so don't take it
that way.
It was the fact that my pointof bringing this up her her book
, and I had to tell her.
I said, taylor, you're a rulebreaker, so you're in a room
with these, these older women,um, and?
And most of them are jewish,and so they're writing a lot of
(46:16):
things.
That's in that vein and in thatcontext, and and and so they,
they write by, you know,everything is quoted to writer's
style.
I said so.
She said they have this thingwhere they call like tear it,
like rip it up, so that meanslike I'm giving you my work of
art, and so they go around andthey judge it which is fine.
She goes.
Mom, I put myself out there, Iexpect them to judge me, but
(46:42):
they snatch my.
They snatch me bald, like I.
I didn't have something thatkilled me like that and I and
I'm bringing this up I saytaylor, you don't get to be both
meaning you are a rule breaker,that you are.
You are writing a book, butyou're not doing in a typical
writing style so you're writinga period piece but you bring it
in, just like shonda rhimes isthe queen of this.
You don't watch bridgerton, youknow, and that's period piece.
(47:04):
But then you'll look up andyou'll hear modern music over a
classical track.
So they're doing all theseunconventional things.
That's what a rule breaker is.
It's defying convention.
I said.
But so when you step into thatrule breaker circle and you
don't see it, you didn't knowthat's what you were doing.
You have to expect the peoplewho follow the rules Are and you
(47:24):
didn't know that's what youwere doing.
You have to expect the peoplewho follow the rules Are going
to push back and on that note, Ithank you Did you have anything
else you want to add?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Not that I haven't already said, Okay, that's great
.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Well, I just get a lot of food for thought, a lot
of things to think about, andthat's just true when you come
out and you step into the arenaand you take a stance or you
speak up and speaking up isspeaking for yourself Do it and
know that you will get pushedback, but who cares?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Who's?
Speaker 1 (47:52):
going to stand for you, but you.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
The only other thing I would say is that in life
there are drivers and there arepassengers.
You decide every day whetheryou want to take the wheel or if
you want to let somebody elsedrive, and so if somebody else
is driving, don't be upset wherethe car is going.
I think Confucius said that,although I'm not sure he ever
owned an automobile, but justsaying.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
You're not sure if he did what.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Ever owned an automobile?
Have you ever seen a picture ofConfucius in a car?
Speaker 1 (48:14):
But anyway, what Roger Kipling did say is like
when he said I am the master ofmy faith, I am the captain of my
soul, and so that's why I sayyou are the architect.
You get to tell your own story.
And tell your story and beauthentically who you were
created to be.
You may have to break the rules.
Give yourself permission tobreak a rule, as long as it's
for you and you know you'redoing it from a good space of
good intentions.
(48:35):
Until we meet again.
I'll see you on the perch.
Be well, take care, thank you.
Greetings.
First Family Welcome.
Today's show is.
I always get excited, but thisone I'm going to call it.
I'm going to call it before weget started.
I'm going to call this is myfavorite Until next week.
No, no, no, Until now.
So our topic.
(00:28):
Before I get to our topic, justa few housekeeping.
I'll make it quick and short.
This is.
I apologize last time for beinginconsistent.
We've been in transition, sowe're heading back to Michigan.
So this is our last podcast inAlabama until October.
So we'll be saying farewell toour lovely friend Phil here and
his amazing studio until we meetagain.
(00:48):
But, perch, family, I willstart doing and I'm saying it
now and now I'm putting it outthere.
I got to do it small shorts tokeep it consistent.
Small, yeah, I mean not doinglike the full anyway, anyway,
doing shorts, put it out thereand keep it consistent so it'll
probably just be me okay focus,okay focus school.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Is it okay?
We're ready.
Gotta play by the rules yes,speaking of rules.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Today's topic today is rule breaker.
You know, I feel like what'sthis song?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
that's pat benatar.
That's what phil's singingearlier.
Yes, it is, it is indeed.
Yes, it is heartbreaker dreammaker.
Yes, yes, that's that's no.
Phil was singing earlier.
That's not Pat Benatar, isn'tit?
No, it is Pat Benatar.
Yes, it is.
It is indeed Heartbreaker.
Yes, it is Heartbreaker.
Dream Maker.
Dream Maker.
Yes, that's Pat Benatar.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No, it was not a black person.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You can't put that to Luther.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Vandross.
Normally it's a black person.
Exactly, I'm pretty Rulebreaker.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like these socks?
Look at that.
Oh, I agree, rule breaker.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sorry, we do not do.
We don't do drugs at all, Idon't know what's going on with
this show today, but the subjectis rule breaker.
So, with intention, I want totalk about this and typically I
really try, with intention, towalk the line, try to be, when
we talk politics, bipartisan.
(02:06):
We talk about everything.
Try to be in the middle row,not calling anyone out, but on
this particular perch, I'mcalling out women today and it's
really a challenge because I'mcurious.
The first thing and I want toask you guys to ask yourselves,
when we said today's topic wasrule breaker, what was the first
thing that came to your mind?
So, before we get into that, Iwant to let you know I have a
(02:28):
shocking, a different way oflooking at it and before I get
to someone else who kind of well, I'll just say this part and
then I'll kick it to you, tobyBe clear though You're talking
about rules, not laws, right?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Do you have that in your?
How do I have to be?
Did I say law breaker?
Do you have that in your?
How do I have to be?
Did I say lawbreaker?
Well, everybody seems to go tolaws.
They go.
I'm not a rule breaker.
I always do the speed limit andyou're like that's the laws,
not the rules.
Back to you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So he asked me about be clear about something I never
stated.
So I'll be clear that I neverstated lawbreaker, I stated rule
breaker, great call out.
So and I was thinking, I saw Ihave the way that I kind of see
it what it meant to me and I hada divine revelation.
I'll share that towards the end.
But there's a TED Talk by CindyEckert called the DNA of Rule
(03:12):
Breaker and Cindy went on to sayand this is her definition,
give you a little context of whoCindy Eckert is.
Cindy is the woman you givecredit for creating the female
Viagra.
That's her claim to fame.
She actually was one of the 28inventors of the male Viagra.
She was one of that.
(03:32):
She sold that off and shecreated the female.
Don't want to get down therabbit hole, I don't even want
to Call out to.
Cindy, Call out or shout outToby.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Either way.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh my God, I don't even want to go.
You kill me using terms andthen don't apply them.
They work for me Because youdon't follow the rules.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I'm a rebel without a clue.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Without a clue, not a cause.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Stay on topic here.
It's hard Toby because you'relike a toddler.
It's like driving with ablindfold on.
You know how you take a toddlerout of public, but you can't
take your eyes off.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
The really can't enjoy yourself.
Are you out?
exactly oh, my god.
Anyway, the only reason I saidthat?
Because she went on to statethat there's two types of rule
breakers.
Hear me out on this one thosewho break the rules for personal
gain and those who break therules to change the game.
So, with that being said, shewent on also to state and
(04:32):
specifically call out women.
She, she said her research andher study shows that when women
break the rules, typicallytypically their dna is empathy
driven.
So when they break the rules,empathy typically applies and
that means that normally they'redoing it because, like fight
for justice or to speak up forthe little guy or to stand up
(04:54):
for other women.
So that's typically the underthe guys that she stated women
are rule breakers.
I have my own.
I agree with a lot that shesays, but I have my own view.
But before I go there, toby,what say you?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, again, not knowing where this is going to
go.
First of all, shout out to theFlorida Panthers.
It has nothing to do with rules, but Florida Panthers in the
conference finals again, whoop,whoop.
Once they make the conferencefinals, we're going to be
rocking the Panthers jersey Justwish they weren't in Florida.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh, stop it.
Anyway, go go, Stop it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So, anyway, a couple of things that I think are
important.
You've already made thedistinction between rules and
laws.
And rules, everybody says thatrules are made to be broken, and
I would argue rules are made tobe revisited, and in fact I
want to use a sports analogyEvery year, all the major sports
teams revisit their rules.
Rules are not made to be static, they're not made to just be
left out there without beingchallenged.
(05:45):
So every year, the NationalHockey League, the NBA, major
League Baseball changes therules, and not necessarily small
.
I mean Major League Baseball.
You know, put in a pitch clockso you have to pitch faster, so
the game would move faster.
So they set a rule to try tomeet an ends, and then what
they'll do is they'll goevaluate it to see if it works,
and society should be the sameway.
The only other thing I wouldsay is people love to talk about
.
I'm a rule breaker, I'm achange agent, I'm I'm a
(06:11):
disruptor.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I'm a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I put two pieces of cheese on my cheeseburger.
I mean stop it.
You know, I didn't park betweenthe lines, I actually put the
tire on the line because I'm adisruptor.
I mean all of this stuff ishogwash.
I mean there are, there, arethere are people that are
disruptors, and then the other98 of people that are like, I
tied my shoes differently.
I'm a change agent.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh go, anyway, go ahead back to you jim, okay, you
, you sure you got it out,because I don't know, it took me
a little punchy.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
That's why today is sponsored by mountain dew.
So anyway, I wish I wish cokesponsorship.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Um, so I do I.
I I wish it was that simple.
But what?
What I do?
The reason why?
So I'll give you some context.
I've really been struggling withthis because, like you said,
major difference between alawbreaker and a rule breaker.
But there is no definition fora rule breaker.
Let's just start.
There is literally nodefinition for a rule breaker,
(07:02):
so it's some crap that somebodymade up and someone made up and
gave it meaning.
So therefore, when I hear Iwant to get her name right Cindy
Acker, when she says, well,women break the rules for
different reasons, I get thatWorking in corporate America.
You see it all the time.
You see some people, and it'stypically men, it's not women.
(07:23):
You see it all the time, youknow you.
You see some people, and it'stypically me, and it's not women
.
And and and typically, when yousee women who are treacherous
in corporate America, what I'veseen and of course, I haven't
seen all the corporate Americais they bought into that belief.
They bought into the beliefthat I have to have these male
traits in order to succeed.
I can't be authentically whoI'm created to be.
So I, I have to be like a man,you know, to be out there, and
(07:46):
then there's people like me.
So I am the type of person thatI am a rule follower to a
certain extent, meaning I followthe law and then I speed, so
then I don't follow, I don'tfollow, I do, and I know that I
do.
So I can't say, you know, I waslike, well, I'm not a thief, I
don't steal, I don't do allthose things.
(08:07):
But when I do break the rules,from a legal perspective,
normally I'm going a little.
I got a heavy foot, okay,that's still, but where I
realize that one the reason whyI say I'm calling out women
specifically, because what I doaccept the fact that and Cindy
didn't state this level, becauseshe, she call it empathy and
(08:28):
I'm going to call it somethingelse I think we all have a North
Star.
I think we just do.
We all have it and if we chooseto pay attention to our inner
compass, that guides us.
But what I see more thananything and women, that's
listening, challenge yourselfand dig in yourself and see
where this lines up with youwhat I'm about to say.
We have most of the time, ifyou're a woman and you're in
(08:49):
business, especially incorporate america, consistently
we've sat in rooms and didn'tagree what things they say, but
we don't speak up, you know, andif we do speak up, it's
normally after the collectivehave spoken up.
We need two or three otherpeople to speak up before we're
the first one to put ourselvesout there.
I have sat in plenty of roomswhere you know I'm a woman and
(09:09):
other women turn to me and sayyou know, I couldn't have said
that and kept my job.
I couldn't have done that andkept my job.
So the same things men areapplauded for doing, women are
typically sometimes bastardized,you know, for doing it.
So therefore we have beenconditioned to believe that.
You know, being a rule breakeris a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I'm going to challenge that one.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And so before you challenge it, let me just say
this so if there is nodefinition, if it's not in the
dictionary, if Merriam-Websterdidn't say because if you look
up breaker, everything is in adictionary, icebreakeram-webster
didn't say because if you lookup breaker, everything is in a
dictionary.
Ice breaker there was some.
It was some different.
I was like I thought it wasslang and it was all kinds of
breakers in addiction Heartbreaker, house breaker.
(09:54):
I was like what's a housebreaker?
I was like all of these things.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Circuit breaker.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
But not, but not a rule breaker, and that's because
these are man-made rules and ifyou're a woman and I'm going
there if these are man-maderules and you are a woman, the
minute you don't acquiesce,you're a rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My turn.
Yes, okay, I have a lot more tosay.
Oh, I know you do.
No, you do, but we've got tocorrect this first of all.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Correct it, of course , or don't have to correct it.
No, oh, we don't have tocorrect it no, you just have to
make your.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Women are by nature agreeable creatures and men, by
nature are disagreeablecreatures.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I disagree, but anyway Big shot.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And so women prefer to be agreeable.
If you look at the way womenresolve conflict, it's through
less aggressive means than menresolve conflict by and large.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Can I just ask you a question about that, though?
Why do you call it naturethough?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Because I think we are naturally wired that way.
Women are nurturers and men arenot.
So women, by nature, tend to bemore compromising and agreeable
.
It's what I've said from thebeginning.
I think women should be thepoliticians of the world and run
the world because they're, bynature, more agreeable and more
willing to compromise.
Where men are more aggressiveand they're like I have to have
it my way and that's the way itworks.
(11:08):
So where I'm going with this is, for whatever reason American
business covets that, go getthem.
Tiger aggressive nature, bendthe rules if you have to break
them.
Okay, you know that kind ofthing.
And when women are by natureagreeable, it's one of the
reasons, in my humble opinion,that women don't climb the
ladder as quickly as men do,because the trait of being
aggressive and sticking yourneck out there and doing those
(11:30):
things is a coveted trait,whether we like it or not.
In business we look at people,you know.
You look at some of the peoplethat we revere in American
business and they're the onesthat were trailblazers.
They broke this rule and theychanged that, and they did this
and and they changed that andthey did this.
And so I think that, by nature,women don't move up the ladder
as quickly.
One of the reasons.
There are obviously a lot more,but that they tend to be, by
nature, compromisers and moreagreeable, and for whatever
(11:51):
reason, in American business wecovet people that break the
rules.
So, there you have it.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
The only thing I have to say is because it's your
opinion and just like mine.
We're both entitled to it.
Entitled to it, but but where I, where I?
What I have to say is you can'tsay nature because
scientifically, because when yousay nature, nature is tied to
science and it's it's based onscientific evidence.
Scientifically, what we knowfor sure about learned behaviors
, there's only two that wouldcome and we all come here with.
(12:18):
There's no scientific evidence.
There's something in the, the,in the gene of a girl that says
she's going to do this.
As far as traits, charactertraits, there's nothing.
We come here scientificallywith the same two fears, that's,
the fear of falling and thefear of loud noises.
(12:39):
So if you take an infant andyou go like this, you'll see
that infant shape, becausethat's what we came here with,
and loud noises.
If you make a loud noise, anewborn baby is.
If they hearing it.
Just just hear me out for asecond I'm going to ask you one
question just going to jump.
So scientifically, those sheertraits are the only thing we
come here with.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Everything else is learned behavior what
scientifically, when it comesdown to traits?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
and we're not talking about physicality we're talking
about from simply behavior andtrait.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I would ask one simple question if men had to
raise children, how many wouldget past the age of three?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
but that's no.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I'm gonna take the over under about five but we get
past the age of three.
But because men don't have thetolerance, they're aggressive,
they can't.
They don't have the tolerance,they're aggressive, they don't
have that capability.
I believe inherently Now thereare obviously men that are
wonderfully loving and caring.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Tell it to all the single fathers that raise kids
from infancy.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I believe that they have to do their very best and
step outside of their comfortzone to do those things.
In most cases, I would argue,that does not come naturally.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I hate to tell you this Newsflash and women cannot
like it.
You know it's being a motherdoes not necessarily come with
maternal instincts, it's.
I know women personally whoaren't maternal.
They just aren't and they willtell you that.
And again, these are all.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I won't say stereotypes, but for the most
part, if you took a men and 100women and you studied them
intensely, you would find thatmen, by nature, are more prone
to make snap decisions, prone toaggression, prone to more
violent behavior, than women are.
And again, I didn't do anyscientific analysis of that, but
there seem to be enoughscientific things out there that
(14:20):
support that.
And all I'm saying is thatthat's why men, by nature, tend
to be more rule breakers.
And, quite honestly, womencomplain about men being rule
breakers, but they could do itthemselves, but it isn't in
their nature to do so.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No.
So again, because we don'targue, we perch right.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Right.
So perch on this, and I'mperching higher than she is too.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Perch on this.
You know, and I've done another, when I did a talk with other
women before and it was on thethe way we raised typically
depend on society where you live.
You're bringing boys.
I typically, historically it'sgotten a lot better raised,
different from girls.
Girls are raised and it'sgetting better.
(15:00):
But for centuries, to be safe,to be safe, what it is Don't
jump, don't be a lady, bepristine, right, right, and
that's the way they are raised.
Boys were raised to be risktakers, go to the highest point
of the monkey bar and jump off,do all of these things.
So, therefore, when it comesdown to breaking the rules, you
(15:20):
literally and I'm going to statethis and I wrote this down, and
I'm going to state this, and Iwrote this down, and I did not
want to lose this thoughtbecause I know this may be
controversial and that's not mypoint, it's just food for
thought I believe that you aredesigned, we are designed to win
.
This is for women.
I'm speaking to women when Isay this you are designed to win
, but you are programmed to lose.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I would rephrase that to your team, but that's my
phrase.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I know Now.
Don't rephrase my phrase.
Come up with your own phrase.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I would just say, women are not even competing.
Because, they're not willing totake a risk.
When it comes to things likethat, they conform.
By nature, women tend toconform, and that's a challenge,
not all.
Again, you've said it beforeYou've had women come to you and
say why don't you say something?
Why don't you say something?
Because they look at you asmore of an alpha female.
(16:11):
But women, by nature, tend tobe passive and do not challenge
those things as much as men do,and that's why men are
considered go-getters.
And again, this is a stereotypethat we have to get past in
this country, because a man whobreaks the rules is looked at as
a go-getter, a climber, and awoman who breaks the rules is
considered what Difficult.
(16:34):
It's a horrible stereotype, butJordan Peterson did an
interesting piece about thiswhere he said there are like 10
traits that make men moresuccessful than women and they
tend to be traits that are moreaggressive traits and that, by
nature, is why men tend toprogress through organizations
at a higher rate than women.
And you can argue with them.
I think they make a lot ofsense, but they're not, of
(16:56):
course.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh, I am trying not to swear at you, Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, go for it.
Knock yourself out.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Because what?
So?
What we're not going to do isthe fact that.
So let's speak truth to power,because men create these rules,
corporations, men rule the world, they run the world.
That's just a fact.
From a financial standpoint,from a corporate standpoint,
they are the leaders.
So these fake rules werecreated by men.
(17:23):
Now rules are fake.
Yeah, because we just talkedabout it.
Well, okay, I'll do away withthe word fake and I'll meet you
where you are.
You said that rules were meantto be changed.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yes, they are so these changeable rules.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Is that better?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
So these evolving rules?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
whatever makes you happy, Perfect makes me happy.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Because I'm all about making you happy.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's right, because you're the man.
Oh, stop it Anywho.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
What are you making for dinner?
You really don't want to eatanything.
I'm cooking tonight, so are yougoing to trust?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
me, so this will be my last episode.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
It's been great talking to you.
You made me lose my train ofthought.
I was really upset.
No, because so.
Men are the creator of theserules.
Because we've already said onethere's no such thing.
This, there's no definition.
So when you look up and yougoogle rule breaker on the
internet, you get all theseOutlandish reasons of what a
rule rule breaker is, and mostof them were written by men too.
So and then so if you get some,if you're them, if you are the
(18:22):
one in power, that means you getto move the goalposts whenever
you feel like it.
You get to say now, thisapplies, and that's why, all of
a sudden, in business, you know,disruption became a sexy thing.
I'm a disruptor and a false.
I'm a disruptor, and there's adefinition for disruptor.
It was never a positive one, youknow so, but I'm saying you get
(18:50):
to make the rules.
So therefore, comma, if you, inturn, as a man, can't say to a
woman well, the reason womendon't succeed and the reason
women struggle, or the reasonwomen is because they don't
possess these traits, and whatI'm saying is they possess all
of those traits.
I am everlast one of thosethings.
I can be aggressive, I could bedocile, I could be passive, I
could let a lot go.
I can stand firm, I could doall of these things, but one
(19:10):
thing I know is there is a levelof intimidation when women show
up in the same capacity thatmen do.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So then, in turn, if you know that and if you agree
with that, how then do you sayto a woman, to America, to
whoever's listening, you knowthere is a reason why.
And put that on women and notput it on the men that created
these rules.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
No, but there's still a great deal.
There's a great deal a modicumof sexism in a lot of corporate
businesses.
Well, you're in supply chain.
I mean, I can't think of onethat is more dominated by old
white men than supply chain.
And so a message of anaggressive businesswoman pushing
back against the rule orchallenging, you know, the
status quo, is not as wellreceived there as, say, in the
(19:52):
apparel industry, where there'sa lot more dominant female
executives who have done thatand have actually molded that
industry in such a manner.
And that's why, again, you know,I know we're not talking about,
you know, equality here in thisconversation, but more about
rule breaking.
But there are greaterachievements that are made
across different industriesbased on how they're dominated,
(20:13):
and you said it before, most ofthese rules have been made over
the years by men, but there havebeen greater forays into
changing those by women to more,I would say, more sensible in
many cases in those industrieswhere women have been highly
successful in reaching executivelevels.
So there you go, that's mystory and I'm sticking to it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, but where is the accountability?
But this is I don't.
It's not that I'm trying to becombative, this is what I know
for sure.
So let me just let me make itpersonal and put my and I'll
take the hits for this one.
What I know for sure is, evenin business, I've been in
corporate America for 30 yearsand I'm seen in a lot of
(20:53):
different lights, but oneconsistent light is, you know,
sometimes like being aggressive.
I've heard that multiple timesand in each time I have to say
this I said how am I aggressive?
First of all, I'm in business.
I don't yell, I'm not swearing,I'm literally asking questions.
(21:15):
I'm literally looking forclarity in a statement.
I've come with solutions.
Where is the aggression?
But I think you're making mypoint.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You've had a career in supply chain in an industry
dominated by older white men.
So when you act in a way thatanother industry might look at
you as being a change agent, areal change agent but they look
at that as a threat to thestatus quo.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
But when I'm showing up in the same capacity as the
man that you want to make yourleader like, oh you know, he
take charge, he solutions Right.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So when I possess these, same traits.
In that industry.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And I don't come.
And this is the part that Ineed you to see, because when
you make statements about whywomen aren't successful, and
that's just your opinion.
It is, and I want to clean itup, because so be.
I could see a lot of womenpissed off at you right, that's
okay, but no, no, no letterscoming no, and the reason why I
say that is because I know youand I know your character.
(22:15):
But what I do have to say isthat saying is because that
that's what women are often told.
Women are often told well, youknow, you just have to, and
there are some, some data tosupport what you say.
So I'm not going to lie.
There are some data that saywomen are typically less likely
to ask for a raise, they're lesslikely to speak up.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
All of that's factual and true.
So you're not saying thosethings, you're saying are
absolutely fact.
And don't make this sound likeit's a bad thing either Women
are much more empathetic.
They show more empathy than mendo.
They make better depending onthe jobs and the opportunities.
As I said before, I think,politically speaking and we're
not going into politics I thinkwomen are by far more stable
(22:55):
emotionally and in terms ofbeing willing to compromise and
meet halfway than men will everbe, and so this is not, by any
stretch of imagination, a dig onwomen at all.
In fact, a lot of those traitsI covet.
I wish I had that same abilityto be empathetic in cases where
I see other people doing so.
And again, these are not withall men or with all women, but
(23:17):
there are certain industrieswhere women have been highly
successful and they've shownthat they've been capable of
making changes, and otherorganizations and other
industries not so quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's all I'm trying to say of making changes, and
other organizations and otherindustries not so quickly.
That's all I'm trying to sayand you know, and for that,
because we've been on air, Ijust want to call out because
your last statement led me intoanother point I wanted to make
too, because what you said is anabsolute fact Some rules only
apply in certain industries, incertain areas, and there are
certain other industries thattotally break them all.
(23:46):
Perfect example factually,hollywood breaks more rules than
any other industry.
For business and, case in point, what I want to say.
I looked this up so right now,in business, often not only do
they want a bachelor's degree wesay this all the time you see
companies now wanting a master's, even PhD, like for what?
You're not a doctor or lawyer,whatever, and some of our
(24:18):
rescinded, the top, topgo-getters in hollywood are all
high school dropouts.
That's just a fact.
Some of them barely want to,you know, and I and I even, with
all fairness, kind of lookedaround and tried to give you
know more entertainers than justactors or whatever.
Giselle Bundchen dropped out ofschool at 14.
Ryan Gossett 17.
Cameron Diaz 16.
Nicole Kidman 16.
Beyonce, 15.
Jc just said he bounced aroundin a high school.
(24:38):
We don't know what he did.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
That thank god they're not working on the space
for Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Jennifer Lawrence 14.
Rihanna 16.
And it's billionaires in hereRihanna's a billionaire, Jay-Z
is a billionaire, Beyonce closeto a billionaire.
Disney, Walt Disney, 16.
And so when people say you knowthis, and then you look back
and I want to just do a quickcomparison, because Jeff Bezos
graduated summa cum laude fromPrinceton University, while Bill
(25:05):
Gates dropped out of HarvardSlacker, but no, making a
greater point about rulebreakers, and this is important
for us to hear because, first ofall, and for women, in order
for us to grow, we have to.
And my doctor I won't say hername, and I told her I won't say
her name and I'll bring this up.
I just left her and I asked her.
(25:25):
I said, when you hear, and andshe's young and she's smart and
she's just on, it just in herown practice and I said to her
Toby, I hit you in the knee.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I heard you um I said to her.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I said my podcast today is about rule breaker.
When you hear rule breaker, I'mnot with you.
When you hear rule breaker,what do you think?
And she immediately recoiled.
She was like oh.
And she was like and then shewas like you know, if you?
And then she looked at me likeI'm like like first of all, so
I'm not gonna say your name.
Second, if you don't want me tobring this up, I won't even
(25:57):
bring it up.
And she was like well, if youask me that cuz she was like
what a first thing came in mymind.
It's like bad boy, someone thatdoesn't follow the rules, just
okay.
And then I said to her I saidbut you're a rule breaker.
And she said she was like no,you would have been.
You would have thought that Icalled her like oh, my god like
this, you know, just a harlot orsomething?
(26:19):
she was no, no, I followed Idon't, I do.
And she started talking allthese legalities.
I said that's a lawbreaker.
I said the mere, the mere fact.
Just think about it.
And I really women, I reallywant you to hear me on this,
really hear me.
Just think about it.
Less than 50 years ago, itwasn't even you know, for women
to work was something you know.
It was like women.
The rule is you stay home,raise the baby, care for the
(26:42):
house, tender for that.
That was the rule.
So any person, any womanoutside of that, where black
women didn't have that optionwe've been working for that.
We're tired, just by the waybut any woman outside of that
was considered a rule breaker.
So now this is where it'sconfusing and this is where, as
women, we have to get over thesestereotypes and these things
that they put on us for sayingand my thing is your rule is
(27:06):
your, your north star, whateveryour compass is, and and and.
When you go against that, youknow, then you're not being true
to yourself.
So, people, if someone tell youwhere, you know you're not a
good girl and you know you waityour turn, or you speak what's
spoken to, or you know, and evenin business, the study shows
and research said, even whenwomen don't agree with something
(27:26):
before they break the rules,and when they do speak up or
when they're given credit, sayyou say hey, tricia, you won
Employee of the Year, here'syour award.
You know what the rules, thestudies say, women are turned
around and do Give credit to aman that was in it.
Well, I can't take credit forthis, you know.
Thank you, but they have tofind somebody.
I think you're making my casefor me.
No, but I said I agree, I saidsome things.
(27:47):
You said were absolutely Somethings.
Yeah, fact.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, absolutely everything was.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Absolutely not.
And I said you can't put someof these things on women because
when they are the things thatmen are, that successful men are
, it's not well received.
So that part.
So if you say one thing,received, so that part.
So if you say one, thing and soone of the things that we have
(28:12):
to recognize.
So did I get off message.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You talk about truck to tractor tires or something
over there.
But I didn't quite you knowhanding out.
Academy Awards and who went tocollege so that I didn't know
what that had to do.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I was literally making it applying to how
there's different rules fordifferent areas of business.
An actor you have to have twoarms, two legs and be sexy.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I mean, what more than that?
No, but it's not just acting.
I was just saying, I wasagreeing with you.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You said supply chain had more of this, and then
there's different rules forentertainment.
That was, who manages that?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So I don't know who manages Hollywood.
I mean, there is no necessarilyskill sets, I think, other than
I said two arms is too much, Itake my credit back.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I was just trying to get credit for something.
Anyway, go At some point.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
It will come back around.
But all I was trying to get atbefore is that rules.
There's a spectrum of rules,right?
So some rules are fairlyserious and some rules are just
quite casual.
But we all live every day.
Everything we do is a rule.
We park between the lines whenwe're at an airline terminal.
We queue up, you know, to gothrough security.
We, you know, we wait patientlybefore our row number is called
(29:14):
, all those kind of things.
And those are just rules andyou know, you always see people
that break them.
The other rules aren't meantfor them.
We joke about it all the time.
The person has to get off theplane first because they're more
important than anybody else.
So people do break the rules.
The question is, some rules aremore egregious than others.
Some rules could potentiallyput people's lives at risk.
You know, if you open the, youknow the door on an aircraft
(29:35):
when it's up in the air, that'sa rule you probably shouldn't
want to break, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But then there are other ones, like you know,
unless you're on a new Boeingand they just automatically come
off.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Exactly, it's a new feature of the Boeing aircraft,
which is the instant parachutingfeature.
Yes, but I mean so.
To me, rules should beconstantly looked at, and you
know, even like an airline'saround the mind because I've
been flying so much recently.
But you know, you look at theway the airline industry works
and Southwest Airlines isrelooking their rules because
they used to have a rule.
(30:02):
In fact they still have a rulethat says, if you call in
advance and say that you needmore time, special assistance to
board the airplane, that youcan get on first.
Well, guess what people aredoing?
People are calling in andsaying you know, I have a
hangnail, I need specialassistance.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I'm sure they didn't say they have a hangnail.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You know, sometimes I see shadows in my eyes so I
need to get on early.
I see shadows in my eyes so Ineed to get on early.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I see dead people.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
You know, I see dead people, I need to get on early,
all these kind of things.
And then they get on the listand all of a sudden, a person
who has followed the rules iswaiting in line and they say all
the people that have specialdisabilities.
And 6,000 people get on theplane.
So what's happened?
People have found ways to breakthe system, break the rules, so
now it's up to Southwest to nowsay okay, how do we put that
(30:47):
back and get to the spirit ofwhat we were trying to do and
make it so that really only thepeople that need to do it do it.
So that's why I said rules areever-changing, they're
evolutionary and we look at thatin all forms of life.
Rules that existed 20 years agodon't exist today, and so to me
there is no problem withchallenging rules, and I think
(31:07):
anybody should be able tochallenge rules.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So I'm going to have a squirrel moment and so I'm
going to call my own stuff outlike squirrel.
I'm going to get off topic.
I think it's funny as F If youguys, if you haven't looked at
it, just Google Southwestairline people, seat holding and
people have come up with themost creative ways to hold seats
.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
To break the rules.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
So what they'll do is they'll pay to get on early.
One person will pay andthere'll be a big party and
they'll put different things ina seat and say and somebody's
sitting there.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I had a hip replacement a while ago and I
was traveling through theairport with a cane and a guy
came up to me and goes that'sbrilliant.
So what do you mean?
It's brilliant, he goes.
You probably get on the planeearly, don't you?
And I said I could.
He goes, I'm going to starttraveling with a cane, I can get
on early and I'm like so peoplefind ways to break rules.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Well, this one lady you got to look for this.
I could not stop laughing whenI saw this.
This one lady wanted to,because you know, Southwest,
that you bring your bags on andthe overhead you should put in
the link for this video.
It's very funny she got up andlaid in the overhead.
So nobody.
First of all, good for you, Icouldn't fit.
(32:13):
Second of all, what the like,seriously.
But anyway, back to the title,To my rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Now back to our show.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
That people go to some crazy ways.
Breaking rules can be fine.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
At times it could be dangerous, but there's never an
issue with challenging the rulesand the status quo, because the
world is constantly changing.
You know, 10 years ago wedidn't have self-driving cars
and so people say don't takeyour hands off the wheel.
And now you watch commercialswhere they're going like this
and watching the car.
So it's like constantly havingto challenge rules in our
(32:44):
workplace and all that.
And you know, I work in therestaurant industry and I'll
walk into a restaurant and saywhy do you do things that way?
Well, we've always done thingsthat way.
It's this tribal knowledge thatjust gets handed down from year
after year and you look at itand say, well, you know, there
are probably easier ways to doit now.
And people just fall into thistrap of following rules.
And sometimes it's healthy tochallenge those, understanding
that at the end of the day youmay leave them the same, but it
(33:06):
never hurts to revisit rules.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But what I'm afraid of and the reason why I chose to
talk about this topic because Idon't see rule breakers as
necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
If you are standing up for justice, if you are
standing up for yourself.
If you don't speak for you, whowill?
If you don't stand up for you,who will?
If you're in a position ofleadership and you're a woman
and you see things that youdon't agree with, your voice is
just as powerful as anyone elsein this room.
But I do have to say and Ireally because I didn't want to
(33:44):
go there, but I wouldn't even beokay in my own spirit if I
didn't go there and the reasonwhy I say I'm really challenging
women, because we are as womenin America, we are watching
things go reverse, back to ourproductive rights, but then DEI
is diversity, equity andinclusion.
Factually, women benefit fromthat more than anything.
(34:07):
And then that's going away.
And so my thing is and theserules were made by men.
So when men in corporationsdecided to make DEI a focus, to
make DEI part of their corporatestance, and then the government
and everything else.
Corporations don't have tofollow the government,
especially if they're a privatecorporation, but they're
choosing to do these thingsbecause, guess what?
(34:29):
We're not speaking up, we'renot using our voices, we're not
making ourselves heard, and ithas to come for us, and so
that's why we really have tolook at this rule breaker in a
more serious light now, becauseit's not a bad thing for if this
is something you really believein, and if this is something
(34:51):
you really want, and if this issomething you really want.
If we don't, it starts withourselves.
If we don't stand up and andnot worry about, um, going
against the grain and not worryabout and, and, because we're
not doing it for the sake of,you know, just being rebel
rousers.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
We're doing it because we believe it's the
right thing to do and the rightthing to say, and I know we
haven't done a podcast on DEIbecause I don't think anybody
and again I don't want to gointo DEI with a great degree,
but I don't think anybodydisagrees with the concept of
DEI.
There may be some questionsabout how it executes, but I
think you're absolutely right bysaying there's no problem with
challenging rules and being thatperson to challenge them and
(35:23):
understand and look at the worldin a manner that says rules are
meant to change and I don'twant to say meant to be broken,
you know, but are meant tochange as we move along.
And so is it right the way weevaluate, you know, scores or
grades coming from high schools?
Is it fair to all people thatthey're evaluated on the same
scale?
Is it fair that the way Harvardaccepts their students?
(35:47):
And what if all of a suddenHarvard says, just to take them
as an example, you know, we'rejust going to take the top 50
scores across the country andthose are not evenly distributed
.
Let's say that 80% of those areAsian, american and 5% are
Caucasian and 15% are black.
Is that good?
Or does that break a rule ofDEI that says no, no, no, you've
(36:07):
got to normalize that, you'vegot to take, you know.
And so all of a sudden, rulescan be challenging because they
tend to sometimes get in the wayof what you're trying to
accomplish, and so I think weall need to be fair and not put
names to programs instead ofsaying what we're trying to
accomplish is we're trying tomake sure that all people have
opportunity equality ofopportunity.
(36:28):
We talked about this equalityof opportunity versus outcome
and not put together programsand rules that hamper that
capability from occurring.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I'm lost.
So you're saying a problem withDEI is that they put a name to
it?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
No, but that it structures a and again.
We're not going to talk aboutit in this program.
You know what?
Let's just get out because it'stoo serious of a topic for us.
Oh, we could talk about thatfor hours.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, but I do before we get out of here.
In my opinion, I made a reallypowerful statement without
giving any context.
So when I said to women youwere designed to win, but you
were programmed to lose, I knowyou could say that could mean a
thousand things.
Why would you say that I'm awoman all day long?
So that applies to me too, 24-7.
Meaning yes.
(37:08):
I don't take a day off.
No, I don't.
So I say you were designed tomean and the reason why I
specifically address women onthis is because we all are the
architects of our own lives.
We just start.
You can choose not to.
We all get to decide.
You know, this is where I wantto be and you can work towards
all of this.
We are the architects of ourown lives.
(37:30):
So, by design, that life is whatyou make of it.
Now, it doesn't mean becauseyou're a woman, you're going to
have extra obstacles.
It doesn't mean you have to bethree times better than men and
do it in heels, going backwards.
All of those factors are true,but still we have a hand in the
design and the creation of whatour world is going to look like
and how it is.
(37:50):
So that means and if you had topick, I hope you pick a winning
hand.
So we are designed to win butprogrammed to lose.
Meaning.
We come here because we'rewomen, you know.
And we come here because we'rewomen, you know.
And we come here at adisadvantage.
We come here with these, youknow, less pay.
We come here, that's just.
These things are already thethe.
(38:11):
The minute you born as a womanis something that that's.
Am I lying?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I mean no, those facts, yes, but we can cover it.
We literally don't have enoughtime to go into.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Don't open pandora's box with five minutes left so
what I mean by saying yourprogram to to lose is because,
as you can see and this is aone-year, we did agree on it we
kind of take on those tropes, wekind of you know, not, don't
speak up.
We kind of like you know, whenwe do do well, we turn around
and give someone else credit.
You know, credit, you know, andso that's a programming.
(38:47):
That programming is at adeficit to us.
So that's what I mean when yousaid, when I say you're designed
to win but programmed to lose.
Because even when you show up asyour authentic self and
speaking your authentic voice,being a woman is off-putting to
some men.
It's like you know to like whoare you to challenge me, or like
you know who are you toquestion me or who are you to
question me.
I've gotten it my entire lifeand I was just saying this to my
sister Monica.
(39:08):
I said you know, I used to sitin church and I couldn't just
sit in Bible study with everyoneelse because in a black church
they like what we call call andresponse.
So when a pastor say something,he expected amen.
And so I think, oh, you're asmaller church and everybody's
saying amen and you're justsitting there.
Then you look like the defiantone, I look like the rule
breaker and I was like I am nottrying to break the rules.
(39:29):
That was not amen worthy.
I did not agree with you.
Maybe an A, but not amen.
I could say amen like, hey,what you talking about?
Because I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Or lowercase amen.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
But the point being, you know, and that's how I am
wired, I was like I just youknow.
And they said, you know, theblack church would tell you when
they, at a certain time inchurch, they'll say stand on
your feet and repeat after me,and I was like I don't even know
what you're about to say, no,I'm not standing to my feet and
I'm not.
And then so naturally I'mconsidered a rule breaker.
I'm like no, it just make itmake sense to me.
(40:01):
You know, when it makes senseto me, I will follow the rules.
Now, in business, this is whatI would say to leadership all
the time.
I am never going to go againstthe final call, and if you're in
charge and it's your call tomake the final call, I am going
to perform whatever it is youtell me to do.
But if I don't agree and Ithink it's a better call, I will
(40:25):
be the one to say you know what.
You have the final say, but notjust for the record.
This is my vision and it's theway I see it, and I know that's
just who I am that's consideredbeing a rule breaker.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I was like no, Well, but I think there's change about
if you look at organizations ormovements like Conscious
Capital, capitalism and greenerorganizations more friendly
organizations.
I spent several years of mycareer in retail and retail is
dominated by senior executiveswho are women and sadly, and I
mean this most sincerely.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I know where you're going.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Sadly, they act like men and it's horrible because it
really brings to light the factthat women believe that to be
successful, they have to actlike complete assholes, like men
do, and that's just socounterproductive.
And it really taught mesomething and I said you know,
women in retail don't act anydifferently than men in
automotive or in technology orwhatever.
(41:15):
But it just seems so counterbecause we Toby, you know looks
at women as being much moreaccommodating and inclusive and
collaborative and all thosethings.
And what we've taught people isto be successful in business,
you have to be this dog-eat-dog,and I think we need to change
that paradigm because there'snow clearly case studies out
there and data to support youdon't have to behave that way in
(41:37):
business.
You can break rules andrecreate them in a manner that
makes the world and theseorganizations more inclusive,
more collaborative and moresuccessful.
So I push back a little bit onwhat you said, which is women
are geared to fail.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I didn't say geared to fail, I said programmed.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Programmed to fail To me in the current model.
I think you're right.
I think the model is changingand I think there are enough
people that are now tired ofthat paradigm and are saying we
need to change the rules on howwe conduct business, how we
treat people in our business,how we conduct how we, how we
show up in the marketplace andall those things.
And this is this is notrevolutionary, it's evolution.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
It's going to take a long time but but let me just
say this, and I do have, I wantto say this point.
I have one more point and thenwe're out of here.
Um, we're out of here.
I do want to say about that,about it's changing, and it's
changing do you believe it'schanging.
I'm concerned, I do, I think andI hate to say it because it
sounds cliche, but in my mindand my spirit right now I can't
(42:34):
think two steps forward, twosteps back, because we do.
We can't acknowledge the factthat.
How long has the WNBA beenaround?
And it takes someone like youknow you have Asia Wilson, you
have women who have been dynamicand fantastic but it takes
someone like one of the mainleaders, Caitlin Clark, to come
out and outscore the men and putup numbers like that, to, like
(42:57):
you know, maybe we need to lookat it.
It takes at the time and youand I talked about this when a
soccer team will bring in moremoney than the men and filling
the stadiums and winning forthem, to say, well, maybe we
look at it.
So you can't.
I will not applaud a fish forswimming.
To me, that is not change.
To me, that is when thefinancial implications is moving
(43:18):
the needle.
And to me, when change comes iswhen you and I don't get to
make those rules right.
We can say, well, Tricia'schanging, the why it's changing
is irrelevant.
But the problem with that is ifI take that stance and say,
okay, let's just accept the win,let's just accept the fact that
they made progress in that area.
Here is the problem with thatwhen they stop beating the men
(43:40):
and when they stop, and we sawthat, filling the seats in there
and the men and when they stop,and we saw that filling the
seats in there and it goes backto the man get the bigger salary
.
It goes back to the way it was,Because even though when the
women in soccer were killing it,their money went up, you know,
and took a bump, but that'stemporary.
They're nowhere near the manand they won't be, and they will
literally have to play at thelevel or outplay the men just to
(44:01):
get close to their salary.
So when you're saying you'rechanging, when I'm taking a step
forward just to keep going back, when my reproductive rights
are staying back, when DEI isgone or whatever, as a woman I
cannot say we're progressing.
That looks like regression tome.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I just think you're confusing two different things.
One is certainly a financialconversation, which is, you know
, should.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
It's a collective body of women.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
But should women have control of their reproductive
rights?
Absolutely, I mean, and thefact that the government never
stepped in was a major overreachby the government.
I'm going to leave that onethere for some other podcasts.
When it comes to the financialaspect of why women athletes are
paid less than male athletes,it's purely a financial
conversation.
I mean, if the day that awomen's WNBA game draws the same
(44:43):
viewership, audience andinterest from sponsors, there
will be parity.
But this idea that because womenplay the same game as a man,
that they should be paid thesame amount, what if it was the
other way around?
What if women's collegebasketball or basketball was
much more successful?
Would a man then turn aroundand say, well, I do the same
sport as a woman, shouldn't I bepaid the same?
It's a financial conversation.
And well, I do the same sportas a woman, shouldn't I be paid
(45:04):
the same?
It's a financial conversation.
And I hope I really do.
I hope, whether it's CaitlinClark or some of the other
people you mentioned, put theWNBA on the same trajectory that
the NBA is on and that parityis achieved, because all of a
sudden, people want to watch thegame, because it's entertaining
.
It's a great game now.
It didn't used to be.
We've got to be fair.
It didn't used to be as just,incredibly talented as these
players are now.
(45:24):
I hope they fill the arenas, Ihope that the television rights
come and I hope the sponsorshipscome and I hope.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
with all of that, the financial model changes.
And I just want to state thisand you're right, before we go,
because this happened today andI told her I would bring it up.
So my daughter, Taylor, shoutout to her she's writing a book
and I'm putting it out in theuniverse.
It's going to be a New YorkTimes bestseller.
Because that's just me, and ifI have the power to put
something in the universe, I'mgoing to put greatness out there
, make it big.
But I told her in this, blessher heart, she's in a writer's
(45:54):
group with a bunch of seniorsand no judgment on seniors at
all, and this is not an attackon seniors, so don't take it
that way.
It was the fact that my pointof bringing this up her her book
, and I had to tell her.
I said, taylor, you're a rulebreaker, so you're in a room
with these, these older women,um, and?
And most of them are jewish,and so they're writing a lot of
(46:16):
things.
That's in that vein and in thatcontext, and and and so they,
they write by, you know,everything is quoted to writer's
style.
I said so.
She said they have this thingwhere they call like tear it,
like rip it up, so that meanslike I'm giving you my work of
art, and so they go around andthey judge it which is fine.
She goes.
Mom, I put myself out there, Iexpect them to judge me, but
(46:42):
they snatch my.
They snatch me bald, like I.
I didn't have something thatkilled me like that and I and
I'm bringing this up I saytaylor, you don't get to be both
meaning you are a rule breaker,that you are.
You are writing a book, butyou're not doing in a typical
writing style so you're writinga period piece but you bring it
in, just like shonda rhimes isthe queen of this.
You don't watch bridgerton, youknow, and that's period piece.
(47:04):
But then you'll look up andyou'll hear modern music over a
classical track.
So they're doing all theseunconventional things.
That's what a rule breaker is.
It's defying convention.
I said.
But so when you step into thatrule breaker circle and you
don't see it, you didn't knowthat's what you were doing.
You have to expect the peoplewho follow the rules Are and you
(47:24):
didn't know that's what youwere doing.
You have to expect the peoplewho follow the rules Are going
to push back and on that note, Ithank you Did you have anything
else you want to add?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Not that I haven't already said, Okay, that's great
.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Well, I just get a lot of food for thought, a lot
of things to think about, andthat's just true when you come
out and you step into the arenaand you take a stance or you
speak up and speaking up isspeaking for yourself Do it and
know that you will get pushedback, but who cares?
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Who's?
Speaker 1 (47:52):
going to stand for you, but you.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
The only other thing I would say is that in life
there are drivers and there arepassengers.
You decide every day whetheryou want to take the wheel or if
you want to let somebody elsedrive, and so if somebody else
is driving, don't be upset wherethe car is going.
I think Confucius said that,although I'm not sure he ever
owned an automobile, but justsaying.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
You're not sure if he did what.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Ever owned an automobile?
Have you ever seen a picture ofConfucius in a car?
Speaker 1 (48:14):
But anyway, what Roger Kipling did say is like
when he said I am the master ofmy faith, I am the captain of my
soul, and so that's why I sayyou are the architect.
You get to tell your own story.
And tell your story and beauthentically who you were
created to be.
You may have to break the rules.
Give yourself permission tobreak a rule, as long as it's
for you and you know you'redoing it from a good space of
good intentions.
(48:35):
Until we meet again.
I'll see you on the perch.
Be well, take care, thank you.
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