November 13, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode of Counting the Cost of Loyalty, we uncover the high emotional cost of settling in love and the true meaning of loyalty in relationships that no longer uplift us. Hosts Tree and Toby explore why so many remain loyal out of fear of loneliness, societal pressures, and financial dependence—forces that often turn love into an “unbreakable saddle” rather than a source of true happiness and growth.
"Settling in love is like trading your dreams for comfort—when what you truly deserve is a love that ignites, not one that merely sustains."
Tree and Toby dive into how personal insecurities, learned patterns, and societal expectations shape our capacity for self-worth and authentic connections. Drawing from Dr. John Gottman’s relationship insights, they discuss how true loyalty should elevate rather than diminish us.
With heartfelt wisdom and humor, Tree and Toby invite listeners to reflect: Is my loyalty lifting me up, or holding me down? This episode speaks to anyone ready to question what a healthy, fulfilling relationship truly means.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Good day, first people.
For those of you who joined usfor the first time, welcome.
For those of you who havesubscribed, thank you.
And for those of you whohaven't, hopefully after this
you will.
So we're going to start out.
What was the thumbs down?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
for people who didn't subscribe.
Oh, we love everyone.
They're watching.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So we love you.
If you don't subscribe, westill love you, toby, so you're
joining us on episode two, ifyou did not see episode one of
season two.
Don't make it sound like we'relike well I was, before I was so
rudely interrupted.
It's episode two of our series.
(00:48):
Okay, counting the cost ofloyalty.
Why stay true to what hasfailed you?
Why, why, why Stay true to whathas failed you?
So the last episode it aged.
Interestingly, I can't say itdidn't age well, it was about
politics and party loyalty.
(01:09):
But we've got to move rightalong Well.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The good news is my email box is now empty, Liquor
stores are now busy and the TVcompanies no longer have any
advertising, so it's all good.
Good job.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So we've got to move right past that subject and
typically I would say if youmissed it, go back.
Don't go back, just stay awayfrom politics for a while Can't
go back On to this, today'sepisode in Perch.
In Perch is where we pause,evaluate responses to circumvent
harm.
(01:42):
So we're going to ask you topause on today's topic, which is
love.
When settling becomes yoursaddle, pause on that.
So is your horse broke?
Why are you riding like that?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We're just trotting, we haven't galloped yet You're
trotting, we're trotting, okay.
We'll trot on this.
There's trotting, galloping,galloped, yet you're trotting,
we're trotting.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, we'll try on this there's trotting galloping,
yes, okay, back to the subjectlet's go over my cowboy hat.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You know that, but I left it up north.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That's where my cowboy boots you are like the
little toddler I am with, likeall kind of disorders, the thing
in front of the walmart I geton that thing and go around and
normally I will give you, likeany good parent nowadays, an
iPad to play with.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There we go, why the adults are talking, but you're
part of the conversation.
Sadly, I'm an adult.
Here we go, here we go.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
When selling becomes your saddle.
And let's evaluate this.
It's a lot to consider in this,so let go of it If you have any
perceived notions.
No telling where this is going.
So let's evaluate.
We're going to start with thefirst area of evaluation.
One thing that was brought upis the reason why people settle
(02:52):
and love is a fear of loneliness.
So studies indicate that nearly50% of people stay in
relationships due to fear ofbeing alone or perceived
difficulty of starting over.
This fear often outweighs thedissatisfaction they feel within
a relationship.
The American PsychologyAssociation found that those
fears fear of being alone aremore likely to remain in
(03:17):
relationships even if they'reunfulfilled.
So people stay, even when theyare happy, for fear of being
alone.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So that's our starting point.
Great Well greetings, perchSapiens.
Good to see you all again.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Not as Sapiens.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, perch Sapiens?
Yes, that's correct.
So I think it was interestingwhen we were talking about
having this particular topicright after Halloween, because I
thought about the fact that weall dress up for Halloween and
we all pretend to be somethingthat we're not for Halloween.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So love the, I'm going to go there.
Just stick with me.
Within 20 minutes it's allgoing to make sense.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
All right.
So for Halloween we all getdressed up and pretend to be
something we're not, and manytimes in relationships some
people every day dress up andpretend to be something that
they're not because they don'twant to be lonely, that's good
you did connect the dots.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Good for you, toby, drop the mic, we're done.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I didn't say drop the mic, so the reality is that a
lot of people, for fear ofloneliness, for fear of never
finding a person, will put on amask every day and pretend to be
something that they're not andthey get into relationships and
they believe that they can makeit work.
Or the other way around theyput a mask on the other person
and pretend that they'resomething that they're not, and
(04:28):
that's really not a good guideto any successful relationship.
And I would contend thatthere's a very big difference
between adapting to somebodywithin a relationship, and what
I mean by that is I normally eatdinner at 6, treats at 6.30.
Okay, we can meet, we can havedinner at 6.30.
But if she's a vegan, that'schange.
And that kind of change isfairly radical.
And people that set go intorelationships and you hear it
(04:50):
all the time.
Your friends will say, as shedoes this or he does that, but
but I think I can get used tothat, or you know, I'm sure they
will change is a big red flag.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Can I just when you said that that was that I'll
give you credit.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That was a good every now and then you don't tie
things back to the subject.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But good job you did.
But I think there's a for me.
What I hear is a third caveatto that is I don't know if we
necessarily realize that we'rewearing a mask Meaning a lot of
times, especially when you startoff really young in
relationships and things are new, sometimes we unconsciously
(05:32):
morph into something and itreally takes.
That's why I thought it was soimportant to do this show and
have this many layers.
It really takes someone topoint out to you sometime that
not only have you changed,because people quick to tell you
when you change but not quickto say you know, to ask you have
you really taken time toconsider how you are showing up?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
and if.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Are you showing up just for the sake of being a
relationship, or are you showingup as your true, authentic self
when you are still learning?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
especially when you're young.
Learning is the interestingpoint, because I think that as
you grow up in a family, all youhave to look at as role models
are either your family or yourfriends.
So if you're growing up in ahouse, you may have a single
parent or a relationship whereyour parents don't show each
other very much affection.
Then you're in a situationwhere you're not learning a lot
of social cues.
(06:24):
So while all of a sudden nowyou get out on your own and now
you're in a relationship, youdon't really know whether you're
changing or not, because youdon't know what the rules of the
game are.
So I would even contend it's a.
It's probably a lofty statement, but most people don't even
know what love is until they'veactually experienced a lot of
rejection and a lot of hurt andloss and then they recognized oh
(06:47):
, I bet that's what love was,because I would contend for that
for the longest time in myrelationships early on and my
parents I had.
I grew up in what I would calla traditional family environment
, but my parents wereparticularly affectionate.
They were very businesslike witheach other.
Should we do this, should we dothat?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
but so it's transactional.
Is that what you're saying?
Not necessarily emotional,right, but I knew that they
cared for each other.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
My dad became terminally ill.
My mother cared for him to hisvery end and loved him until the
day she died, but showed it ina very controlled, reserved way.
So I would say that many peopleprobably grow up in an
environment where they have tokind of learn on their own what
the difference is between likeor being compatible and truly
(07:32):
loving.
And that's why I worry a littlebit when people get married too
young, because I sometimeswonder if they've really
experienced the gamut ofemotions and feelings and really
understand what it means to bein love and what that
relationship is going to involveand how much at times you have
to fight for it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think the only problem and this is what I've
learned about the age thing inlove there is no clock, because
it's so a lot of times we arequick to judge young people for,
you know, getting too seriouswhat we say too soon or marrying
too soon, Because we think wesaid things by our own personal
(08:12):
clock.
So we look at it, it took methis long to know myself, this
long to mature this, so we comeup with our own personal
barometer, pretty much to say Ididn't know myself until then
and therefore, because I didn'tknow myself until this point,
then you shouldn't be lovinganyone until you're of a certain
(08:34):
age.
But what people don't realizeis love and knowledge kind of go
hand in hand, and so somepeople are very knowledgeable.
They have a deep understandingof love because they've had to
care and be providers early onin their life and caregivers, so
(08:55):
they have gone through a lot ofthe stages early on.
Well, some people have neverhad to care about anybody but
themselves and that's why whenyou see people marry late in
life, and therefore what weconsider late 40s and 50s, they
still don't get it because theywere like not to pick on only
children.
But what I'm saying issometimes people have only had
(09:16):
me, myself and I to focus on, sothey, from a knowledge
perspective, are no more maturefrom a relationship and
emotional perspective thananybody.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So I get concerned.
It's almost a sine curve too ifyou think about it.
I don't want to get toomathematical, but I think early
on you don't know enough to loveand then later on you're so set
in your ways that you don'twant to adapt to somebody else
to love.
So there's a lot of primeground in there where you're
like no-transcript.
(09:51):
To me, loneliness is abyproduct of confidence and it's
interesting because you knowtruth and disclosure here.
I've been married twice,divorced twice, and the first
after I divorced the first timearound I found myself lonely and
I thought you know, I reallywant to get back into a
relationship.
(10:11):
Fast forward 10 years later andI divorced for the second time
completely different vibe.
I was not in that place at all.
I was like I'm perfectly good,I have no problem If I never
find somebody else again, if Inever enter into a relationship,
that's fine.
But I was in a different placebecause, from a confidence
standpoint, I just felt morecomfortable with myself.
(10:32):
So I think some of theloneliness issue is I feel like
somebody else needs to completeme, and I didn't think I needed
by that time anybody else tocomplete me.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But here's something to consider.
It's so much power.
It goes back to my knowledgeand I'm going to hold that off
to an end and a deeperunderstanding.
But that's a knowledge, it'sstill a learning.
So you had your experience thefirst marriage and you said the
second marriage.
You are more knowledgeable ofyourself of who you are, and so
(11:03):
it's the level of yourself, ofwho you are, and so it's the
level.
And I think, and and until I'mgoing to reference a book later
on for you guys not a sponsor,not promoting it, but I found a
lot of it very insightful.
As far as relationships inmarriage is concerned, the power
of knowledge is something else,is knowledge of self, and once
you, you are aware of who youare, it's it's it.
(11:25):
And it goes back to peopledismissed as saying you know,
you can't love someone until youlove yourself.
Your first love should be youand people like oh, that's
impossible, I've loved animals,I've loved this, whatever.
No love relationship, true love, it has to, because you are
morphing into what everyonewants you to be instead of being
(11:48):
authentically who you werecreated to be.
But, if I can, it ties into mysecond point.
You touched on it.
The other thing that theybought up, as far as why people
settle, is social pressures andexpectations.
I struggle with the socialpressures.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's just not me, I'm changed a lot, but yeah, go
ahead but this is how theyexplain it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It says societal norms and family expectations.
I get family expectations, butsocietal norms and family
expectations play a significantrole.
In a survey by the pew research, over 60% of respondents
admitted feeling pressure to bein a committed relationship or
marriage by a certain age.
Cultural expectations ofteninfluence people to settle down
(12:36):
sooner, even if it meanscompromising personal happiness.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I hear that I think that was probably more
prevalent before than today.
I mean, we've talked about thisbefore.
The number of friends that wehave who are in partnerships and
it's not a case where will theyget married at some point?
I don't know.
A very, very close friend ofmine who just recently passed
was in a partnership for 60years and he and his partner
(13:04):
were committed to each other atthe same level.
Just because, in the eyes ofgod, they weren't married didn't
mean that they weren'tcommitted to each other.
So I sometimes think that thatwas a more parochial way of
looking at things.
Okay, you got out of highschool, then you have your first
girlfriend, and then you haveyour second girlfriend, and then
it's you get out of college andthen you get married and then
you have kids, lather, rinse,repeat and repeat, and I think
(13:24):
some of that has changed.
You know, we all know friendsof ours.
Now they're having childrenthat aren't married.
It's become a more appropriateway to do things.
So I'm not sure the socialpressures parents definitely,
but the whole social pressure.
I don't think I would go to afriend of mine and say, oh, you
got a girl pregnant, you got tomarry her.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
No, but what I this is, I do agree.
I think that's more antiquated,but this is what, if we can
consider, has changed in oursociety.
The social pressure now is whatwe factually see is that in
society, in our society,everything is advertised, post,
(14:00):
put out, that we celebrateeverything, and so that's a
different pressure.
We celebrate, you know, allbaby announcements, what's the
color, what's the gender,something opposed and something
to see, and I, and especiallyall the young people in my life
I hear it it was like they go toso many weddings now like a
wedding for a wedding for awedding, because it becomes more
(14:22):
about the event then about therelationship.
So I think it's that pressurewhen you, if you're a young
person, and you're on wedding.
I literally had someone in mylife that was in six weddings in
one year.
I think that's a lot, and sothen, when you're not that
person like and you look likeeveryone around.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
That's the societal pressure, when everyone around
you is doing it and I think weshould all agree that if you go
to a wedding and you give anexpensive gift and the wedding
doesn't last at least five years, you get some money back we're
going back to love we're goingback to love, but anyway,
somebody must have nothingnothing go back to the societal
(15:01):
um.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Did you want to add anything to that topic?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
only that.
I think that one's probablyless or so than it has been in
the past.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
But but it's another.
But that's maybe that's becauseyou're looking at its surface,
because expectations have somany levels or maybe religious I
was about to say obviouslywe're down here in alabama.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I think there's a lot more traditional values in the
south.
Perhaps just having been bornin the northeast and grown up in
the midwest, uh, maybe it's alittle bit less traditional than
than here.
But okay, I'll give you thatone.
I didn't ask for it, I was just.
If you don't agree or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
No purchase, not about being in agreement, it's
just things to consider.
So then the next um subjectthat bought up, and this has
been, and I don't have thenumbers how long in our society
has this been the number onefactor?
But it's finance.
Yes, it's the number one causefor divorces in America.
So, financial dependence,financial interdependence.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
This is why people stay together, or why people
actually split up.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
This is why they stay together Settling.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
You're saddle, settle they.
They're settled, they settlefor.
Financial interdependence canalso create a saddle effect.
Um, as many couples areintertwined economically.
According to 2023 bank ratesurvey, around 42 percent of
people reported staying in arelationship longer than they
wanted to due to the dependenceor shared financial goals which
can add a weight to staying.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Absolutely.
I mean, you know, and it'sbecome a much bigger problem.
I mean, I think back to myparents.
My mother, in my entirelifetime, never worked, was it?
That was a time when you couldlive on one salary, and today I
don't know how most couples cansurvive without both couples,
(16:53):
but both people working.
So, yeah, it becomes a realchallenge when you can't do the
right thing for the rightreasons, which is, you know,
financially I can't afford to dothis and then it creates all
kinds of challenges around.
You know, obviously, we knowthere's things like alimony and
there's child support, whichobviously put a burden on both
(17:15):
sides as well.
So, and all that tends to do isjust drive us, drive a wedge
into the relationship evenfurther.
But at some point you wonderwhether there's people out there
and I don't wonder.
I know, I know a number of myfriends that have actually
shared this.
They live in and in the samehouse and share expenses, but
the relationship isn't isn'tmuch anymore and they've, so
(17:37):
they've just kind of gotten intowhat a marriage of financial
convenience so it's funnybecause when you say that I know
that for a fact and I know,like you said, friends and
family, that's like that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Then people have an issue with titles and labels,
because in this instance I thinkit's warranted and I'm not a
big label and title person,because I think it needs to be
some honesty in there, becausewhat happens is when people are
now roommates that's essentiallywhat you are.
When you sit and decide forfinancial reasons, I don't like
(18:14):
you, you don't like me, but wehave to live together you are
now officially a roommate.
The problem with that is, ifyou don't acknowledge that, it
really muddies the muddies thewater for everyone, because if
you happen to have children,it's confusing because, is it?
Is that an image you want, amodel?
(18:35):
If you were and I and I tellpeople all the time when they
judge people who divorce and andI myself was married for a long
time in divorce it was like Iam I modeling the
characteristics of what I willbe grateful to have my children
in Meaning.
Would I want this marriage to beokay for my children?
(18:57):
If I don't like it, if it willbreak my heart to see my
daughters living in a marriagethe way I am, then why do I want
?
that for myself.
So I think a lot of times whatwe do is this is why and people
probably have an issue with whatI'm about to say I don't
applaud people for being marriedlong periods of time, and let
(19:17):
me just put a caveat behind thatI appreciate marriage, I
applaud marriage.
I am not anti-marriage, butit's a.
It's a fallacy when you saywhen we hear people say we've
been married 40 years andimmediately we go good for you.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
How many of those were happy Right, not only happy
, it can be extremely toxic.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So what are we celebrating?
So I'm the one I'm the queen of.
I don't applaud a fish forswimming, you know.
I don't celebrate things when Idon't know what I'm celebrating
, you know.
And so if I know somebody and Ido know couples who are truly
happy and married or whatever Iapplaud them, you know, from the
back.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
If I could do a cartwheel, I would.
As I was just saying a minuteago, we don't always give our
kids credit for actuallyobserving what's going on.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's because a lot of times we're not honest of
what's going on and then we say,well, I think we think we can
hide these things from our kids.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And I mean, I remember growing up again.
My parents were friendly toeach other, rarely showed
affection to each other.
So I came out, you know, when Iwas in high school and college
same kind of thing.
I was friendly to a lot ofpeople, rarely affectionate.
And then when I got divorcedthe first time around, when I
had kids, I felt like theydidn't see what I saw.
(20:31):
And when we actually divorced,it was fascinating because they
thought that that was a goodmove for me and I didn't give
them anywhere near enough credit.
And when friends of mine wouldcome to me and they'd say I hear
you're getting divorced, whathappened?
And I just said three words.
I said I'm not happy.
And it was like poof with thesepeople.
(20:53):
They're like you mean you coulddivorce over that.
And it was the most simple duhstatement.
And it's like yes, you can getdivorced if you're not happy.
It doesn't have to be somethingcataclysmic, it doesn't have to
be financial challenges orfidelity issues or any number of
other things.
You could just say at somepoint hey look, I'm just not
(21:13):
happy.
And what that tends to do ispermeates into everything.
It permeates into the way youbehave and the way you manage
your friendship, sometimes howyou manage your finances, what
you do with your life, howdecisions get made.
So I don't give my, I didn'tgive my kids enough credit that
they saw that and they said dadisn't happy, he's now divorced
(21:33):
and he's happy, and that's not.
That's again not a dig on myex-wife or me, it just I wasn't
happy and I didn't feel like Icould solve it.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I just want to step in on that part, because the
minute you said three words, Iwasn't happy In my spirit.
I felt people judgment andjudge away.
I do want to give something foryou to perch on.
Though it's so, the happinessis a spectrum and only you can
(22:08):
define what that means for you.
Because someone else here happy.
I remember my ex-husband sayinghe wasn't happy and I laughed
in his face and that was wrong.
Don't get me wrong.
That was wrong, but in the time, because in my head and that's
why I felt the need to call itout, Because in my head I'm like
marriage is ebbs and flows.
(22:28):
It's not always sunshine andrainbows, but we dismiss people
because we don't know whathappiness means for them,
Meaning I'm not always happy.
So what?
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well and again, if you wake up one day, you're not
happy, that's one thing Right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
But that's one thing, but if it's a right, but that's
why I'm making a point, I saidbecause we get to define it,
because sometimes what peopleunhappiness needs a full
breakdown of everything else.
You know, it's like if I'mwaking up and and unhappiness to
one person is miserable, miseryto someone else that's a big
difference, and so that's why weshouldn't judge, we shouldn't
tell people you know how theyshould be and what that's
important.
Marriage and relationships isso personal and it's so
(23:13):
situational and no one owes youtheir story.
So when people are strugglingor going through relationships
or whatever, it's better to comefrom the perspective of just
listen and try to do like we'redoing in this podcast give
people tools to do some of thework.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I guess the other thing, too, is that there are
periods of time in your lifethat you have to think about
somebody other than yourself,and then there are times in your
life this may again not landwell where you have to worry
about yourself, and early on,when my children were young, I
felt like I had an obligation totake care of them, and the
family.
And then, as that moved on andthey got older and they were
(23:56):
more capable of beingindependent, I looked at myself
and I was closing in on 50 yearsold and I said to myself the
most simple statement that Iever.
I said I'm 50 years old, Do Iwant to live this?
The most simple statement thatI ever.
I said I'm 50 years old, Do Iwant to live this way for the
next 30 years of my life?
And I just couldn't bringmyself to that.
I just said you know, thisperson doesn't deserve to live
with me for the next 30 yearsliving like this.
(24:18):
I don't deserve to live in thislifestyle for the next 30 years
of my life.
And that's what I mean by Iwasn't happy, happy not that.
One day I woke up and it's likethe breakfast cereal stale and
I'm like not happy, I'm out ofhere.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But I think that that's a perfect segue into the
next topic, that um.
The reason why people settle intheir saddle is, um comfort and
fear of change.
Before I get to this subject,can I just say we're gonna have
to do a full perch podcast oncomfort zone I that's one of the
.
I wish we get rid of that wordand I have to say it in here
(24:53):
because it's referenced, butit's.
It's such an oxymoronicstatement to me.
People only say it's theircomfort zone and places where
they don't want to be.
So you literally are makingyourself comfortable in a
situation you don't want to bein Fascinating.
Nevertheless, back to thesubject Comfort and fear change.
Neuroscience shows that thebrain favors familiarity and
(25:16):
routine, which leads to settlingbecause it feels safe.
This comfort zone oftendiscourages people from pursuing
new relationships.
According to the 2021 studyfrom Northwestern University,
individuals frequently choosepredictability over possibility
(25:37):
of emotional growth, often toavoid emotional risk.
So they like people.
Naturally a human, you know thehuman condition is to fear
change.
I get that.
But if on the other side ofchange, I look at it this way,
right, A rainbow, right.
So on this side of the rainbowis all of the things that make
(26:01):
you uncomfortable angst, anxiety, all of that.
So we know what.
The opposite of that.
But in order for you to get tothat, to get to the other side,
you have to move, you have tochange, you have to to do the
work, and people find it easiercomfort to stay in a place that
(26:24):
they're uncomfortable in,because it's more comfort in
what's predictable than unknownand we'll talk about it.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's heavy.
It sounds light, but that'sheavy.
We did a podcast about work andwe did one a while ago.
If you haven't seen it, it wasamazing called why Stay?
Watch that podcast.
But there's a very interestingarticle in Inc that talks
exactly to what you were justsaying, that science says this
is why you fear change.
And there's a really there's avery interesting study that was
(26:55):
done.
Think about this.
They took a group of people andthey showed them this painting
the initial people.
They said this painting wasdone in 1905.
They took another group ofpeople.
They showed them the exact samepainting and said it was done
last year.
Which one do you think by farand away people like better?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The one that was done last year.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
No, 1905.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh yeah, the painting More familiarity and it's older
, it's, older, it's more andthey found it much more.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Same picture, fascinating study.
So what they say is thatneuroscience research teaches us
that uncertainty registers inour brain much like an error
registers in our brain.
It needs to be corrected beforewe can feel comfortable again.
So we'd rather not have thathanging out there.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Say that one more time for me.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Neuroscience research teaches that uncertainty
registers in our brain like anerror does, like something we
have to fix.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Okay, Uncertainty, yes so we don't like uncertainty
.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It drives us into this uncomfortable place.
Now this article I don't havetime to get into it, but talks
about how you can deal withthings that you know, and it
talks about the four C's, ittalks about career, it talks
about competence.
Anyway, it's a great article.
I'll post it on the Perchpodcast.
But it really talks about how,once you understand why your
(28:17):
brain is doing these things, youcan start to create coping
mechanisms to recognize thatchange.
While it is fearful, if theoutcome in your mind is greater
than where you are today, it'sworth the risk.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
If the outcome in your mind is greater than where
you are today, it's worth therisk.
And that's why, with intention,I've said to Toby, even as part
of PERCH, and what PERCH standsfor.
You're going to hear me saythis often, almost every episode
, you want to get away with mesaying consider, and the power
of consideration, considerationis for you to consider another
(28:48):
thought, but considering anotherthought is connected to change,
and that's it.
So, people, to considersomething being a different way,
or to consider somethinggreater, or to consider means,
if I consider that that may betrue, means if I consider that
that may be true, but that Iwill have to change the way I
(29:10):
look at something, or the way Imove, or my environment, and so
a lot of times, that's why wedismiss the conversation, the
consideration.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
The one thing that just came to me as you were
talking about that and I meanthe last thing.
I think either you or I want tosit up here and do is suggest
to people go back and findreasons to get out of your
relationships.
In fact, the corollary may betrue, or the opposite may be
true, which is, go back and findout how to stay in your
relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Literally.
That's where I'm going, because, at the heart of this, it's
only because, at the end of theday, I would hope that every
human being on this planet has adesire to be better, a desire
and I know that Tree gets upsetwith me when I do this, but I'm
a big photographer, I love totake pictures and I can see it's
(29:57):
almost.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It is depressing.
I can see through pictures thetime when my relationships began
to die.
The smiles are replaced.
The number of pictures I haveof that person, just the tone
and demeanor.
It's unbelievable.
I can almost set it to the timeand the date when it all starts
to change.
And to me I'm like whathappened?
(30:20):
Where did that go wrong?
And part of it I absolutely putsquarely at my feet.
It's communication, it's theability to express your feelings
.
I'm not happy.
I'm not happy because of this,or we really need to spend more
time with that.
Um, and and I think far toooften and I'll again put it at
my feet um, I, I just let it gettoo far where it became just
(30:41):
irreconcilable Can.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I tell you this is the first podcast that we are
totally connected on becausethat literally, even down to the
imagery and the pictures, isstated in my next statement in
here.
So if you, before I step on,you will you finish with that.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, please.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So that really leads me to.
I could have done a show onthis book by itself, and maybe
we should in the future.
But the next and the last topicis emotional and psychological
impact.
I really found this amazing.
So, Dr John Gottman if you guysdon't know who he is, he has a
(31:23):
New York Times bestsellingauthor.
The book he sold over a millioncopies.
It's called the SevenPrinciples of Making Marriage
Work.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
He's not divorced is he?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I honestly didn't vet that part out, but what I do
know for sure thank you forcalling it out, Toby, but what I
do know for sure he's been inthe industry 40 years.
He's a renowned psychologist inrelationships research and part
of the research is what youjust said in the actual looking
at the marriage and it showssigns if you are paying
(31:59):
attention.
So good for you, Toby.
I got two other boys this weekand he's best known for his work
in marriage stability anddivorce predictions and he has a
love lab in Washington andSeattle, not that kind of love.
They're doing real work, nothey.
Toby, let it go.
They're doing realpsychological research studies
(32:25):
and actually studies at theUniversity of Washington where
he predicts and he's been doingthis for 40 years he predicts a
couple's marriage will end indivorce within a 30 within a 91
percent accuracy rate where washe when the elections were
taking place?
you know what I say?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
we're dealing with politics.
But Okay, yes, but you knowwhat.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's so much and it's so good because what he
discovered, too, it's not aboutwhat you're saying, because a
lot of psychologists andmarriage therapists look at
what's going wrong and he said,like for the first 10 years
that's where he started.
Then he realized he was gettingit wrong.
They start searching whatmarriages work and what did they
(33:08):
do right and how can we?
Is there any way for us to takethis and make it applicable to
helping people making theirmarriage whole, but also putting
up a red flag quickly and sayyou know, like Whoopi Goldberg
said in Ghost, you're in danger,girl.
I think we should have him onthe podcast and he can tell us.
Whoopi Goldberg said in Ghostyou endanger girl.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think we should have him on the podcast and he
can tell us Whoopi.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Goldberg, oh, no, the doctor, I think he's above our
pay grade.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
You never know.
We should have him on thepodcast and decide whether or
not.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
This man sold a million copies over a million
copies of one book.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
We've got over a million Lies.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
But anyway, I just want to talk about two.
It's a really good workshopbook and honestly I would
strongly suggest everyone that'sin a relationship or marriage.
It could not hurt for you andyour partner to do some of these
exercises together.
So one of the one of his mainpoints it's called the magic
ratio.
One of his main points it'scalled the magic ratio and the
(34:10):
magic ratio is five to one, oneof Gottman's most notable
findings.
In the magic ratio hediscovered that for a
relationship to be stable andhealthy, there should be at
least five positive interactionsfor every negative one.
Five to one, okay, so what doesthat look like?
And the next one, because again, we could do a whole podcast on
(34:33):
this.
So you get the positive andnegative.
I think that's kind ofself-explanatory, but I bought
this one up just because itsounds odd and goofy and I like
odd and goofy.
The next area where he doesresearch and breakdown it's
called the Four Horsemen of theApocalypse.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That sounds pretty heavy.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I know.
That's why I like it.
It said Gottman identifies fourcommunication patterns that are
strong predictors ofrelationship breakdown.
So I just want to give it toyou.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Bringing up nasty stuff from the past.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
No, but when you throw a rock in a dark room, a
hit dog a holler.
So if any of this hits you, I'mjust saying.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Hey, I'm in Alabama now.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So if you're a hit dog, then try to be silent.
Number one criticism Attackinga partner's character rather
than addressing specificbehavior.
Number two contentmentDisplaying disrespect.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Contentment or contempt Contentment?
Did I say content?
Yeah, I was going to say I'msorry, being happy, thank you
for catching me on that.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
No contempt.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Contempt.
Okay, gotcha Not content.
I was going to say if I'm happy, I'm in trouble.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Thank, you for catching me on that.
Yeah, you know you're held incontempt, that's right.
But contempt meant displayingdisrespect.
Sarcasm what Sarcasm?
Stop it.
Or disdain which erodesprotection.
Number four defensiveness.
(36:08):
I don't know why you say that.
Right Responded to a conflictwith self protection instead of
openness.
And I like this one.
I kind of really did, doug.
I says I'm just gonna bring itup.
Um, mention it, it's calledstonewalling, and stonewalling
just to FYI, before I read, thisis typically done.
Um, when stonewalling shows upin a relationship, 91% of the
time it's in men.
Just saying that's what theresearch said now I'm
(36:30):
stonewalling.
I'm gonna read what stonewall itis stonewalling, withdrawing
from interaction or shuttingdown emotionally, which creates
disconnect.
That's what the research says.
I'm just so humble servantsharing information that the
research says.
So it's what I mean.
(36:51):
I bought this up.
This has nothing to do withanything, but but got Barry.
I'll state the last statementfrom Godman, because he's not
paying me to sell his books andI'm not trying to sell his when
we have an amount him on.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Did you say?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Godman Works emphasized that relationships
should not just avoid negativeinteraction but actively
cultivate positive ones tomaintain emotional health.
Voila, that's what I said, allof this.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Voila.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and I think one of the and I don't disagree
with anything there, and I wasthinking about it as you went
through it and that again again,men and women tend to be wired
very differently.
Guys can get in a bar fight andthen go enjoy a beer together,
whereas women tend to be muchmore keep kind of the baggage
(37:41):
kind of stays along.
And I remember one of thethings that really used to
bother me you and I have talkedabout this is when, when we have
an argument I want to get itresolved.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Okay, move on.
Toby, you don't have to be thatdramatic.
You could have did a subtlepause, subtle pause Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Anyway.
So the reality is, when we havean argument, I want to get to a
point where we're both goodwith that topic and then we're
like are we good?
We're good, okay, and what Imean in my mind, we're good
means it's not going to comeback six months later as part of
baggage from another situation,because the last thing I want
to do is get into an argumentsix months from now and say and
(38:21):
remember the time back in 1812that you've got to leave that
stuff behind.
And it's not always that easyto do, because if, if the bags
just pile up, you can't fightsomething that you either don't
remember to happen three yearsago or that you thought was
resolved that time ago.
Now to the same point, and youbrought this up it's not my job
to tell you when you're over it,so it's your job to repeat that
(38:44):
again, because I bought that upand I said yes, and that's very
true, it's your job to decide.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Repeat that again, because I bought that up and I
said what?
And that's very true, it wasbrilliant.
So I just want you to say itagain.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Brilliant may be a bit strong I taught you what?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What did I teach you?
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Not much.
Anyway, it really is up to theperson who is offended to decide
when they're no longer offendedor when something bothers them
and no longer bothers them, butit's also their responsibility
to work very hard to get to thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
And that's going to tie into the very last point
that I made as far as I startedit on this note and I'm going to
end it on this note isknowledge is knowing.
I think the problem in a lot ofrelationships and even in the
situation you gave that waspersonal to us is saying people
think because they discuss asubject, because we talked about
(39:27):
it, we talked about that.
You hear a couple sit all thetime.
We didn't, we just talk aboutthat last night.
Why are we talking about thatagain?
Talking about something andcoming to some kind of resolve
is two different things.
Discussing something is justairing away like a fart.
It's just out there and thatmeans nothing.
I did not fart.
I said stop looking at me likeI passed gas in the wind.
Like a fart.
It's just out there and thatmeans nothing.
I did not fart.
(39:47):
I said stop looking at me likeI passed that was like no, I'm
just.
That was like out of nowhereit's a fart in the wind, just
wow, because people put theregoes our peachy relationships
put so much, you know, energy on.
Well, we talked about it already.
We discussed that we coulddiscuss something until the cows
come home, until I'm blue inthe face, but do we discuss it
(40:11):
and come to some kind of resolveor some kind of agreement of?
This is how I see it and thisis how you see it.
A lot of times what happens ispeople just say I'm over it
Because we keep talking about itand I'm over this conversation.
The last thing, gottman dear it, reference this back to
knowledge.
I thought was was powerful andhe used this quote and I had to
(40:33):
look it up and think about it.
He says even a Bible.
He said Bible.
The term to know is often usedas a Euphemism of sexual
relations.
Yes, so in it means yada.
So I think it goes back toNoah's knowledge and he was
saying in a relationship, hegives you a lot of these steps
(40:53):
to do the work because we thinkwe know people, because we were
married or we live with them andday to day or whatever.
So what we tend to know istheir routine, but we don't know
that people like he come, andespecially if you're in a
relationship with somebody who'syou know very routine and
predictable.
You know he comes in at acertain time.
You're going to eat this.
(41:14):
Do this fall asleep on thecouch?
I know I'm like the back of myhand.
No, you know that person'sroutine like the back of your
hand.
But do you know their hopes,their dreams, their fears?
Do you really know theincontroversies of how this
person got to be and to care todo that work?
Because there's power in thatknowledge.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
So one of the things we didn't really talk about but
I had in my notes is how dopeople find themselves?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Maybe we did talk about it but how do they find
themselves picking the wrongperson to spend their time with?
How do they find?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
themselves.
Picking the wrong person,picking the wrong.
Okay, explain that for me.
Why do people match up withother folks?
So I guess one of the thingsI'd say is we talked about
broken bird syndrome.
So I guess one of the thingsI'd say is we talked about
broken bird syndrome.
So sometimes people believethey're in love with somebody
because they think they can fixthem.
So they get into theserelationships and they're, like
(42:15):
this person's, unhappy I canmake them happy.
Or they don't understand what agreat person they are.
I'm going to show them what agreat person they are.
So it becomes a very one-sidedrelationship.
It comes back again toself-confidence.
I mean it's really hard to givesomebody else self-confidence.
In fact, by definition youcan't give somebody else
self-confidence.
The other thing is, if we don'tsee, as I said before, in our
(42:39):
early relationships what lovereally is, we get into a
relationship and then finally wesay let's really not love.
And I mean one of the thingsthat I've said to you before is
when you and I have an argument.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
We don't argue, okay when you and I go at it and get
really angry with each other,you're really angry.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
It bothers me, it affects me, and that, to me, is
a byproduct of my care for you.
If I didn't really care, I'd belike you know, and then the
final thing I would say is lovedoesn't mean you have to spend
every minute of every day withthe person.
You have to understand aperson's ability to spend time
together and the ability tospend time apart, and I think
(43:17):
you know, speaking personally,we love to do stuff together and
then we love to do stuff apart,and so that's part of
understanding the nature of theperson that you, hopefully, are
going to spend the rest of yourlife with.
Not everybody likes to be, youknow, just smothered.
Um, you know, you may find thata person wants a little time to
themselves.
That doesn't mean that they'renot loyal or that they don't
(43:39):
love.
They just need time tothemselves, and so I just think,
but that goes back to yet againwhat he was saying.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's a, it's about that knowledge, because you have
to care enough to want to knowhow to communicate.
So if you have a, if you areproclivity in our words are a
little reverse well, I'm the onethat shuts down, you know.
So if I, if I'm more apt toshut down and you want to your
(44:07):
desire to truly make sure thatI'm OK, how do we acknowledge
that and respect each otherboundaries and what systems do
we set up to make sure we arerespecting each other's
boundaries and yet still gettingwhat we need?
But that's care enough to know.
And he used an example and Ithought this was really profound
.
But that's care enough to know.
And he used an example and Ithought this was really profound
(44:27):
.
He said it was a doctor and hisresearch lab.
Of course a doctor, chances are, he's highly educated and very
smart, but he didn't knowanything about his wife or his
family because his, his care,his passion, concern was going
to his job, so he would comehome.
He was like he didn't evenrealize, when they started doing
(44:49):
his research, the dog's name.
Like how do you not know he hada dog?
He knew he had a dog, but hedidn't care enough to get
involved.
When they got the dog he wasworking.
When he did this.
He's working.
So time passed on and that'sthe dog and that's what he
called him.
But one day they they gave astory where the wife decided she
kept doing all these things tosave her relationship and her
(45:09):
marriage and she went to hiswork and, surprised, packed a
lunch and took the kids.
I thought this was aninfidelity story, like, oh, you
did.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
She's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I thought, that's what.
I was doing Research said thatshe just decided to surprise him
.
At work I was like I don't knowgirl, this is going to end
poorly.
I'm going to go work out for you.
But what changed for her is?
She showed up and yet again hewas checking his pager you know
it's an old story Checking hispager and his beeper waiting,
you know, looking for calls andseeing what's important.
(45:41):
And even though his family wasthere and surprised him, he did
not make time.
But his phone rang again.
I thought it was an infidelitystory because people, that's
what we think.
When you, when you're not lovingme, you love someone.
If you're not showing meattention, you show attention.
So technically, he was showingattention someone else.
It was his work and when it came, his demeanor changed, his tone
(46:06):
changed.
He was like, oh you know, andfor the first time in his wife's
life she realized he did havethe capacity to care about what
he cared about.
So he clearly didn't care aboutyou what he cared about.
But I'm sharing a story to saysometimes that's how it is and a
lot of times we go toinfidelity because when we see
(46:28):
traits that are made to havecapacity to do things, they just
don't do it with us.
Then a lot of times it takes todo the work and have that
knowledge of where it's goingand how how can we balance that?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
so, yeah, I guess the my final thought and you and I
have talked about this is to me,a relationship and love and
being in a long-term healthyrelationship is about little
things, and it's little thingsthat you do that the other
person appreciates and this isme.
But I can't continue to dolittle things that I find that I
(47:04):
do out of love or affection andnot have them be reciprocated.
I know you disagree with that.
You believe that love can beone way, but to me it's like
Well, don't say it like that.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I don't want people to think you could be a love and
it's just totally one-sided.
Exactly, that's not it, butanyway.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
So to me it's like if you do little things and
they're appreciated, you doanother little thing that's
appreciated and you do somethingelse and what that does is it
just continues that type of youknow, that type of healthy,
meaningful, and it doesn't haveto be anything big.
You know, guys, you know buysome flowers every now and then,
you know, make your partner acup of coffee.
(47:40):
You know, take them out todinner, Go to a concert.
I mean just little things, Notbecause you have to, Not because
it's February 14th, but becauseit's just kind of fun and
because you want to spend timeand because your partner's been
busy lately or because you guyshave been kind of distant.
Just do those things.
It's kind of like that surpriseand delight and what you'll
(48:03):
find especially and I'll saythis from a man's perspective
women and delight and whatyou'll find especially and I'll
say this from a man'sperspective women appreciate
those types of things because itdoesn't mean that it has to
cost a lot to mean a lot.
And so I think if you care, youneed to fight for your
relationship and you need toshow that you care through
little actions and things thatyou do and before I feel, like
I've said before, I close likefive times but for this very
(48:26):
last time, because you just saidsomething, because you
specifically address men, andjust not in a bad way.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
You called out things for me.
Now this is me giving myopinion, but I'm still going to
ask you to consider my opinion.
Consider a stop.
With a happy wife, happy lifethat when I hear it, it's
cringeworthy for me.
And let me tell you it'scringeworthy for me and let me
tell you why it's cringeworthyfor me.
It's a relationship.
A relationship is two.
(48:53):
If you're in a relationshipwith yourself, you really need
help.
But a relationship is twopeople.
So it should never be happywife, happy life.
And I, I know the intention,whoever created that had great
intentions.
But if that was reversed and itwas saying you know, happy man,
(49:13):
the family stands, whatevercrazy thing, what women will be
ticked like.
You know we would.
You know it was like it can't.
But it shouldn't be a, itshould be us.
It's a happy home and it takesboth of us to be happy.
My needs are no greater thanyours and your needs are no
greater than mine.
Is loving each other enough tocare about?
(49:34):
How do we have a happy life?
And a happy life equals a happyhome.
Now on it I am ending, andtoday on the perch peak.
Loyalty is powerful.
It has the potential to stretchus or shrink us, to lift us up
(49:59):
or hold us down.
But when loyalty becomes aweight, a saddle that binds us
rather than to free us, maybeit's time to ask ourselves some
hard questions.
Loyalty is a choice andsometimes it requires sacrifice.
But have we ever truly pausedto ask what am I sacrificing?
(50:20):
Have I given so much of myselfthat I've lost pieces that I
could never get back?
Think about it.
After years of giving andholding on, have you ever done
the math and realized thatsomewhere along the way, you
lost the essence of who you are?
(50:42):
And in return, what did youtruly gain?
If all that is left is aversion of you that feels hollow
, a shell of love you hope for,is it worth the price of loyalty
?
Loyalty should be a force thatpreserves the best of us, that
(51:05):
nurtures and strengthens us.
It should never erode who weare.
So I leave you with this thoughtConsider if you've been pouring
into, if you been pouringyourself out until there's
nothing, almost nothing left.
Until there's nothing, almostnothing left.
(51:27):
Maybe it's time to ask who youreally.
Who are you really being loyalto?
Because, in the end, trueloyalty should never come at a
price of losing yourself.
Let your loyalty uplift andaffirm you, not diminish you.
You deserve that as much.
And remember your perch isn'tjust a place to sit, it's a
(51:51):
place to seek higher perspective.
Yet again, thank you guys foranother perch Great episode for
me.
I'm excited about this episodejust because, energetically, I
think this is the first time,like literally.
For those of you don't knowwhen we do Perch, toby doesn't
know where I'm going.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Because normally she's wrong.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
He doesn't know where I'm going.
We just know the topic and keepour opinions to ourselves and
to the show.
But a great show, great episode.
Thanks, partner.
Again, I'm Tree and this isToby.
Thank you for joining us onApproach.
Until we meet again, take care.
Good day, first people.
For those of you who joined usfor the first time, welcome.
For those of you who havesubscribed, thank you.
And for those of you whohaven't, hopefully after this
you will.
So we're going to start out.
What was the thumbs down?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
for people who didn't subscribe.
Oh, we love everyone.
They're watching.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So we love you.
If you don't subscribe, westill love you, toby, so you're
joining us on episode two, ifyou did not see episode one of
season two.
Don't make it sound like we'relike well I was, before I was so
rudely interrupted.
It's episode two of our series.
(00:48):
Okay, counting the cost ofloyalty.
Why stay true to what hasfailed you?
Why, why, why Stay true to whathas failed you?
So the last episode it aged.
Interestingly, I can't say itdidn't age well, it was about
politics and party loyalty.
(01:09):
But we've got to move rightalong Well.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The good news is my email box is now empty, Liquor
stores are now busy and the TVcompanies no longer have any
advertising, so it's all good.
Good job.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So we've got to move right past that subject and
typically I would say if youmissed it, go back.
Don't go back, just stay awayfrom politics for a while Can't
go back On to this, today'sepisode in Perch.
In Perch is where we pause,evaluate responses to circumvent
harm.
(01:42):
So we're going to ask you topause on today's topic, which is
love.
When settling becomes yoursaddle, pause on that.
So is your horse broke?
Why are you riding like that?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We're just trotting, we haven't galloped yet You're
trotting, we're trotting, okay.
We'll trot on this.
There's trotting, galloping,galloped, yet you're trotting,
we're trotting.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, we'll try on this there's trotting galloping,
yes, okay, back to the subjectlet's go over my cowboy hat.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You know that, but I left it up north.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That's where my cowboy boots you are like the
little toddler I am with, likeall kind of disorders, the thing
in front of the walmart I geton that thing and go around and
normally I will give you, likeany good parent nowadays, an
iPad to play with.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There we go, why the adults are talking, but you're
part of the conversation.
Sadly, I'm an adult.
Here we go, here we go.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
When selling becomes your saddle.
And let's evaluate this.
It's a lot to consider in this,so let go of it If you have any
perceived notions.
No telling where this is going.
So let's evaluate.
We're going to start with thefirst area of evaluation.
One thing that was brought upis the reason why people settle
(02:52):
and love is a fear of loneliness.
So studies indicate that nearly50% of people stay in
relationships due to fear ofbeing alone or perceived
difficulty of starting over.
This fear often outweighs thedissatisfaction they feel within
a relationship.
The American PsychologyAssociation found that those
fears fear of being alone aremore likely to remain in
(03:17):
relationships even if they'reunfulfilled.
So people stay, even when theyare happy, for fear of being
alone.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So that's our starting point.
Great Well greetings, perchSapiens.
Good to see you all again.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Not as Sapiens.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, perch Sapiens?
Yes, that's correct.
So I think it was interestingwhen we were talking about
having this particular topicright after Halloween, because I
thought about the fact that weall dress up for Halloween and
we all pretend to be somethingthat we're not for Halloween.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So love the, I'm going to go there.
Just stick with me.
Within 20 minutes it's allgoing to make sense.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
All right.
So for Halloween we all getdressed up and pretend to be
something we're not, and manytimes in relationships some
people every day dress up andpretend to be something that
they're not because they don'twant to be lonely, that's good
you did connect the dots.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Good for you, toby, drop the mic, we're done.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I didn't say drop the mic, so the reality is that a
lot of people, for fear ofloneliness, for fear of never
finding a person, will put on amask every day and pretend to be
something that they're not andthey get into relationships and
they believe that they can makeit work.
Or the other way around theyput a mask on the other person
and pretend that they'resomething that they're not, and
(04:28):
that's really not a good guideto any successful relationship.
And I would contend thatthere's a very big difference
between adapting to somebodywithin a relationship, and what
I mean by that is I normally eatdinner at 6, treats at 6.30.
Okay, we can meet, we can havedinner at 6.30.
But if she's a vegan, that'schange.
And that kind of change isfairly radical.
And people that set go intorelationships and you hear it
(04:50):
all the time.
Your friends will say, as shedoes this or he does that, but
but I think I can get used tothat, or you know, I'm sure they
will change is a big red flag.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Can I just when you said that that was that I'll
give you credit.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That was a good every now and then you don't tie
things back to the subject.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But good job you did.
But I think there's a for me.
What I hear is a third caveatto that is I don't know if we
necessarily realize that we'rewearing a mask Meaning a lot of
times, especially when you startoff really young in
relationships and things are new, sometimes we unconsciously
(05:32):
morph into something and itreally takes.
That's why I thought it was soimportant to do this show and
have this many layers.
It really takes someone topoint out to you sometime that
not only have you changed,because people quick to tell you
when you change but not quickto say you know, to ask you have
you really taken time toconsider how you are showing up?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
and if.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Are you showing up just for the sake of being a
relationship, or are you showingup as your true, authentic self
when you are still learning?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
especially when you're young.
Learning is the interestingpoint, because I think that as
you grow up in a family, all youhave to look at as role models
are either your family or yourfriends.
So if you're growing up in ahouse, you may have a single
parent or a relationship whereyour parents don't show each
other very much affection.
Then you're in a situationwhere you're not learning a lot
of social cues.
(06:24):
So while all of a sudden nowyou get out on your own and now
you're in a relationship, youdon't really know whether you're
changing or not, because youdon't know what the rules of the
game are.
So I would even contend it's a.
It's probably a lofty statement, but most people don't even
know what love is until they'veactually experienced a lot of
rejection and a lot of hurt andloss and then they recognized oh
(06:47):
, I bet that's what love was,because I would contend for that
for the longest time in myrelationships early on and my
parents I had.
I grew up in what I would calla traditional family environment
, but my parents wereparticularly affectionate.
They were very businesslike witheach other.
Should we do this, should we dothat?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
but so it's transactional.
Is that what you're saying?
Not necessarily emotional,right, but I knew that they
cared for each other.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
My dad became terminally ill.
My mother cared for him to hisvery end and loved him until the
day she died, but showed it ina very controlled, reserved way.
So I would say that many peopleprobably grow up in an
environment where they have tokind of learn on their own what
the difference is between likeor being compatible and truly
(07:32):
loving.
And that's why I worry a littlebit when people get married too
young, because I sometimeswonder if they've really
experienced the gamut ofemotions and feelings and really
understand what it means to bein love and what that
relationship is going to involveand how much at times you have
to fight for it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think the only problem and this is what I've
learned about the age thing inlove there is no clock, because
it's so a lot of times we arequick to judge young people for,
you know, getting too seriouswhat we say too soon or marrying
too soon, Because we think wesaid things by our own personal
(08:12):
clock.
So we look at it, it took methis long to know myself, this
long to mature this, so we comeup with our own personal
barometer, pretty much to say Ididn't know myself until then
and therefore, because I didn'tknow myself until this point,
then you shouldn't be lovinganyone until you're of a certain
(08:34):
age.
But what people don't realizeis love and knowledge kind of go
hand in hand, and so somepeople are very knowledgeable.
They have a deep understandingof love because they've had to
care and be providers early onin their life and caregivers, so
(08:55):
they have gone through a lot ofthe stages early on.
Well, some people have neverhad to care about anybody but
themselves and that's why whenyou see people marry late in
life, and therefore what weconsider late 40s and 50s, they
still don't get it because theywere like not to pick on only
children.
But what I'm saying issometimes people have only had
(09:16):
me, myself and I to focus on, sothey, from a knowledge
perspective, are no more maturefrom a relationship and
emotional perspective thananybody.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So I get concerned.
It's almost a sine curve too ifyou think about it.
I don't want to get toomathematical, but I think early
on you don't know enough to loveand then later on you're so set
in your ways that you don'twant to adapt to somebody else
to love.
So there's a lot of primeground in there where you're
like no-transcript.
(09:51):
To me, loneliness is abyproduct of confidence and it's
interesting because you knowtruth and disclosure here.
I've been married twice,divorced twice, and the first
after I divorced the first timearound I found myself lonely and
I thought you know, I reallywant to get back into a
relationship.
(10:11):
Fast forward 10 years later andI divorced for the second time
completely different vibe.
I was not in that place at all.
I was like I'm perfectly good,I have no problem If I never
find somebody else again, if Inever enter into a relationship,
that's fine.
But I was in a different placebecause, from a confidence
standpoint, I just felt morecomfortable with myself.
(10:32):
So I think some of theloneliness issue is I feel like
somebody else needs to completeme, and I didn't think I needed
by that time anybody else tocomplete me.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But here's something to consider.
It's so much power.
It goes back to my knowledgeand I'm going to hold that off
to an end and a deeperunderstanding.
But that's a knowledge, it'sstill a learning.
So you had your experience thefirst marriage and you said the
second marriage.
You are more knowledgeable ofyourself of who you are, and so
(11:03):
it's the level of yourself, ofwho you are, and so it's the
level.
And I think, and and until I'mgoing to reference a book later
on for you guys not a sponsor,not promoting it, but I found a
lot of it very insightful.
As far as relationships inmarriage is concerned, the power
of knowledge is something else,is knowledge of self, and once
you, you are aware of who youare, it's it's it.
(11:25):
And it goes back to peopledismissed as saying you know,
you can't love someone until youlove yourself.
Your first love should be youand people like oh, that's
impossible, I've loved animals,I've loved this, whatever.
No love relationship, true love, it has to, because you are
morphing into what everyonewants you to be instead of being
(11:48):
authentically who you werecreated to be.
But, if I can, it ties into mysecond point.
You touched on it.
The other thing that theybought up, as far as why people
settle, is social pressures andexpectations.
I struggle with the socialpressures.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's just not me, I'm changed a lot, but yeah, go
ahead but this is how theyexplain it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It says societal norms and family expectations.
I get family expectations, butsocietal norms and family
expectations play a significantrole.
In a survey by the pew research, over 60% of respondents
admitted feeling pressure to bein a committed relationship or
marriage by a certain age.
Cultural expectations ofteninfluence people to settle down
(12:36):
sooner, even if it meanscompromising personal happiness.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I hear that I think that was probably more
prevalent before than today.
I mean, we've talked about thisbefore.
The number of friends that wehave who are in partnerships and
it's not a case where will theyget married at some point?
I don't know.
A very, very close friend ofmine who just recently passed
was in a partnership for 60years and he and his partner
(13:04):
were committed to each other atthe same level.
Just because, in the eyes ofgod, they weren't married didn't
mean that they weren'tcommitted to each other.
So I sometimes think that thatwas a more parochial way of
looking at things.
Okay, you got out of highschool, then you have your first
girlfriend, and then you haveyour second girlfriend, and then
it's you get out of college andthen you get married and then
you have kids, lather, rinse,repeat and repeat, and I think
(13:24):
some of that has changed.
You know, we all know friendsof ours.
Now they're having childrenthat aren't married.
It's become a more appropriateway to do things.
So I'm not sure the socialpressures parents definitely,
but the whole social pressure.
I don't think I would go to afriend of mine and say, oh, you
got a girl pregnant, you got tomarry her.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
No, but what I this is, I do agree.
I think that's more antiquated,but this is what, if we can
consider, has changed in oursociety.
The social pressure now is whatwe factually see is that in
society, in our society,everything is advertised, post,
(14:00):
put out, that we celebrateeverything, and so that's a
different pressure.
We celebrate, you know, allbaby announcements, what's the
color, what's the gender,something opposed and something
to see, and I, and especiallyall the young people in my life
I hear it it was like they go toso many weddings now like a
wedding for a wedding for awedding, because it becomes more
(14:22):
about the event then about therelationship.
So I think it's that pressurewhen you, if you're a young
person, and you're on wedding.
I literally had someone in mylife that was in six weddings in
one year.
I think that's a lot, and sothen, when you're not that
person like and you look likeeveryone around.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
That's the societal pressure, when everyone around
you is doing it and I think weshould all agree that if you go
to a wedding and you give anexpensive gift and the wedding
doesn't last at least five years, you get some money back we're
going back to love we're goingback to love, but anyway,
somebody must have nothingnothing go back to the societal
(15:01):
um.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Did you want to add anything to that topic?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
only that.
I think that one's probablyless or so than it has been in
the past.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
But but it's another.
But that's maybe that's becauseyou're looking at its surface,
because expectations have somany levels or maybe religious I
was about to say obviouslywe're down here in alabama.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I think there's a lot more traditional values in the
south.
Perhaps just having been bornin the northeast and grown up in
the midwest, uh, maybe it's alittle bit less traditional than
than here.
But okay, I'll give you thatone.
I didn't ask for it, I was just.
If you don't agree or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
No purchase, not about being in agreement, it's
just things to consider.
So then the next um subjectthat bought up, and this has
been, and I don't have thenumbers how long in our society
has this been the number onefactor?
But it's finance.
Yes, it's the number one causefor divorces in America.
So, financial dependence,financial interdependence.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
This is why people stay together, or why people
actually split up.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
This is why they stay together Settling.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
You're saddle, settle they.
They're settled, they settlefor.
Financial interdependence canalso create a saddle effect.
Um, as many couples areintertwined economically.
According to 2023 bank ratesurvey, around 42 percent of
people reported staying in arelationship longer than they
wanted to due to the dependenceor shared financial goals which
can add a weight to staying.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Absolutely.
I mean, you know, and it'sbecome a much bigger problem.
I mean, I think back to myparents.
My mother, in my entirelifetime, never worked, was it?
That was a time when you couldlive on one salary, and today I
don't know how most couples cansurvive without both couples,
(16:53):
but both people working.
So, yeah, it becomes a realchallenge when you can't do the
right thing for the rightreasons, which is, you know,
financially I can't afford to dothis and then it creates all
kinds of challenges around.
You know, obviously, we knowthere's things like alimony and
there's child support, whichobviously put a burden on both
(17:15):
sides as well.
So, and all that tends to do isjust drive us, drive a wedge
into the relationship evenfurther.
But at some point you wonderwhether there's people out there
and I don't wonder.
I know, I know a number of myfriends that have actually
shared this.
They live in and in the samehouse and share expenses, but
the relationship isn't isn'tmuch anymore and they've, so
(17:37):
they've just kind of gotten intowhat a marriage of financial
convenience so it's funnybecause when you say that I know
that for a fact and I know,like you said, friends and
family, that's like that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Then people have an issue with titles and labels,
because in this instance I thinkit's warranted and I'm not a
big label and title person,because I think it needs to be
some honesty in there, becausewhat happens is when people are
now roommates that's essentiallywhat you are.
When you sit and decide forfinancial reasons, I don't like
(18:14):
you, you don't like me, but wehave to live together you are
now officially a roommate.
The problem with that is, ifyou don't acknowledge that, it
really muddies the muddies thewater for everyone, because if
you happen to have children,it's confusing because, is it?
Is that an image you want, amodel?
(18:35):
If you were and I and I tellpeople all the time when they
judge people who divorce and andI myself was married for a long
time in divorce it was like Iam I modeling the
characteristics of what I willbe grateful to have my children
in Meaning.
Would I want this marriage to beokay for my children?
(18:57):
If I don't like it, if it willbreak my heart to see my
daughters living in a marriagethe way I am, then why do I want
?
that for myself.
So I think a lot of times whatwe do is this is why and people
probably have an issue with whatI'm about to say I don't
applaud people for being marriedlong periods of time, and let
(19:17):
me just put a caveat behind thatI appreciate marriage, I
applaud marriage.
I am not anti-marriage, butit's a.
It's a fallacy when you saywhen we hear people say we've
been married 40 years andimmediately we go good for you.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
How many of those were happy Right, not only happy
, it can be extremely toxic.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So what are we celebrating?
So I'm the one I'm the queen of.
I don't applaud a fish forswimming, you know.
I don't celebrate things when Idon't know what I'm celebrating
, you know.
And so if I know somebody and Ido know couples who are truly
happy and married or whatever Iapplaud them, you know, from the
back.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
If I could do a cartwheel, I would.
As I was just saying a minuteago, we don't always give our
kids credit for actuallyobserving what's going on.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's because a lot of times we're not honest of
what's going on and then we say,well, I think we think we can
hide these things from our kids.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And I mean, I remember growing up again.
My parents were friendly toeach other, rarely showed
affection to each other.
So I came out, you know, when Iwas in high school and college
same kind of thing.
I was friendly to a lot ofpeople, rarely affectionate.
And then when I got divorcedthe first time around, when I
had kids, I felt like theydidn't see what I saw.
(20:31):
And when we actually divorced,it was fascinating because they
thought that that was a goodmove for me and I didn't give
them anywhere near enough credit.
And when friends of mine wouldcome to me and they'd say I hear
you're getting divorced, whathappened?
And I just said three words.
I said I'm not happy.
And it was like poof with thesepeople.
(20:53):
They're like you mean you coulddivorce over that.
And it was the most simple duhstatement.
And it's like yes, you can getdivorced if you're not happy.
It doesn't have to be somethingcataclysmic, it doesn't have to
be financial challenges orfidelity issues or any number of
other things.
You could just say at somepoint hey look, I'm just not
(21:13):
happy.
And what that tends to do ispermeates into everything.
It permeates into the way youbehave and the way you manage
your friendship, sometimes howyou manage your finances, what
you do with your life, howdecisions get made.
So I don't give my, I didn'tgive my kids enough credit that
they saw that and they said dadisn't happy, he's now divorced
(21:33):
and he's happy, and that's not.
That's again not a dig on myex-wife or me, it just I wasn't
happy and I didn't feel like Icould solve it.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I just want to step in on that part, because the
minute you said three words, Iwasn't happy In my spirit.
I felt people judgment andjudge away.
I do want to give something foryou to perch on.
Though it's so, the happinessis a spectrum and only you can
(22:08):
define what that means for you.
Because someone else here happy.
I remember my ex-husband sayinghe wasn't happy and I laughed
in his face and that was wrong.
Don't get me wrong.
That was wrong, but in the time, because in my head and that's
why I felt the need to call itout, Because in my head I'm like
marriage is ebbs and flows.
(22:28):
It's not always sunshine andrainbows, but we dismiss people
because we don't know whathappiness means for them,
Meaning I'm not always happy.
So what?
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well and again, if you wake up one day, you're not
happy, that's one thing Right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
But that's one thing, but if it's a right, but that's
why I'm making a point, I saidbecause we get to define it,
because sometimes what peopleunhappiness needs a full
breakdown of everything else.
You know, it's like if I'mwaking up and and unhappiness to
one person is miserable, miseryto someone else that's a big
difference, and so that's why weshouldn't judge, we shouldn't
tell people you know how theyshould be and what that's
important.
Marriage and relationships isso personal and it's so
(23:13):
situational and no one owes youtheir story.
So when people are strugglingor going through relationships
or whatever, it's better to comefrom the perspective of just
listen and try to do like we'redoing in this podcast give
people tools to do some of thework.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I guess the other thing, too, is that there are
periods of time in your lifethat you have to think about
somebody other than yourself,and then there are times in your
life this may again not landwell where you have to worry
about yourself, and early on,when my children were young, I
felt like I had an obligation totake care of them, and the
family.
And then, as that moved on andthey got older and they were
(23:56):
more capable of beingindependent, I looked at myself
and I was closing in on 50 yearsold and I said to myself the
most simple statement that Iever.
I said I'm 50 years old, Do Iwant to live this?
The most simple statement thatI ever.
I said I'm 50 years old, Do Iwant to live this way for the
next 30 years of my life?
And I just couldn't bringmyself to that.
I just said you know, thisperson doesn't deserve to live
with me for the next 30 yearsliving like this.
(24:18):
I don't deserve to live in thislifestyle for the next 30 years
of my life.
And that's what I mean by Iwasn't happy, happy not that.
One day I woke up and it's likethe breakfast cereal stale and
I'm like not happy, I'm out ofhere.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But I think that that's a perfect segue into the
next topic, that um.
The reason why people settle intheir saddle is, um comfort and
fear of change.
Before I get to this subject,can I just say we're gonna have
to do a full perch podcast oncomfort zone I that's one of the
.
I wish we get rid of that wordand I have to say it in here
(24:53):
because it's referenced, butit's.
It's such an oxymoronicstatement to me.
People only say it's theircomfort zone and places where
they don't want to be.
So you literally are makingyourself comfortable in a
situation you don't want to bein Fascinating.
Nevertheless, back to thesubject Comfort and fear change.
Neuroscience shows that thebrain favors familiarity and
(25:16):
routine, which leads to settlingbecause it feels safe.
This comfort zone oftendiscourages people from pursuing
new relationships.
According to the 2021 studyfrom Northwestern University,
individuals frequently choosepredictability over possibility
(25:37):
of emotional growth, often toavoid emotional risk.
So they like people.
Naturally a human, you know thehuman condition is to fear
change.
I get that.
But if on the other side ofchange, I look at it this way,
right, A rainbow, right.
So on this side of the rainbowis all of the things that make
(26:01):
you uncomfortable angst, anxiety, all of that.
So we know what.
The opposite of that.
But in order for you to get tothat, to get to the other side,
you have to move, you have tochange, you have to to do the
work, and people find it easiercomfort to stay in a place that
(26:24):
they're uncomfortable in,because it's more comfort in
what's predictable than unknownand we'll talk about it.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's heavy.
It sounds light, but that'sheavy.
We did a podcast about work andwe did one a while ago.
If you haven't seen it, it wasamazing called why Stay?
Watch that podcast.
But there's a very interestingarticle in Inc that talks
exactly to what you were justsaying, that science says this
is why you fear change.
And there's a really there's avery interesting study that was
(26:55):
done.
Think about this.
They took a group of people andthey showed them this painting
the initial people.
They said this painting wasdone in 1905.
They took another group ofpeople.
They showed them the exact samepainting and said it was done
last year.
Which one do you think by farand away people like better?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The one that was done last year.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
No, 1905.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh yeah, the painting More familiarity and it's older
, it's, older, it's more andthey found it much more.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Same picture, fascinating study.
So what they say is thatneuroscience research teaches us
that uncertainty registers inour brain much like an error
registers in our brain.
It needs to be corrected beforewe can feel comfortable again.
So we'd rather not have thathanging out there.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Say that one more time for me.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Neuroscience research teaches that uncertainty
registers in our brain like anerror does, like something we
have to fix.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Okay, Uncertainty, yes so we don't like uncertainty
.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It drives us into this uncomfortable place.
Now this article I don't havetime to get into it, but talks
about how you can deal withthings that you know, and it
talks about the four C's, ittalks about career, it talks
about competence.
Anyway, it's a great article.
I'll post it on the Perchpodcast.
But it really talks about how,once you understand why your
(28:17):
brain is doing these things, youcan start to create coping
mechanisms to recognize thatchange.
While it is fearful, if theoutcome in your mind is greater
than where you are today, it'sworth the risk.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
If the outcome in your mind is greater than where
you are today, it's worth therisk.
And that's why, with intention,I've said to Toby, even as part
of PERCH, and what PERCH standsfor.
You're going to hear me saythis often, almost every episode
, you want to get away with mesaying consider, and the power
of consideration, considerationis for you to consider another
(28:48):
thought, but considering anotherthought is connected to change,
and that's it.
So, people, to considersomething being a different way,
or to consider somethinggreater, or to consider means,
if I consider that that may betrue, means if I consider that
that may be true, but that Iwill have to change the way I
(29:10):
look at something, or the way Imove, or my environment, and so
a lot of times, that's why wedismiss the conversation, the
consideration.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
The one thing that just came to me as you were
talking about that and I meanthe last thing.
I think either you or I want tosit up here and do is suggest
to people go back and findreasons to get out of your
relationships.
In fact, the corollary may betrue, or the opposite may be
true, which is, go back and findout how to stay in your
relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Literally.
That's where I'm going, because, at the heart of this, it's
only because, at the end of theday, I would hope that every
human being on this planet has adesire to be better, a desire
and I know that Tree gets upsetwith me when I do this, but I'm
a big photographer, I love totake pictures and I can see it's
(29:57):
almost.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It is depressing.
I can see through pictures thetime when my relationships began
to die.
The smiles are replaced.
The number of pictures I haveof that person, just the tone
and demeanor.
It's unbelievable.
I can almost set it to the timeand the date when it all starts
to change.
And to me I'm like whathappened?
(30:20):
Where did that go wrong?
And part of it I absolutely putsquarely at my feet.
It's communication, it's theability to express your feelings
.
I'm not happy.
I'm not happy because of this,or we really need to spend more
time with that.
Um, and and I think far toooften and I'll again put it at
my feet um, I, I just let it gettoo far where it became just
(30:41):
irreconcilable Can.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I tell you this is the first podcast that we are
totally connected on becausethat literally, even down to the
imagery and the pictures, isstated in my next statement in
here.
So if you, before I step on,you will you finish with that.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, please.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So that really leads me to.
I could have done a show onthis book by itself, and maybe
we should in the future.
But the next and the last topicis emotional and psychological
impact.
I really found this amazing.
So, Dr John Gottman if you guysdon't know who he is, he has a
(31:23):
New York Times bestsellingauthor.
The book he sold over a millioncopies.
It's called the SevenPrinciples of Making Marriage
Work.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
He's not divorced is he?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I honestly didn't vet that part out, but what I do
know for sure thank you forcalling it out, Toby, but what I
do know for sure he's been inthe industry 40 years.
He's a renowned psychologist inrelationships research and part
of the research is what youjust said in the actual looking
at the marriage and it showssigns if you are paying
(31:59):
attention.
So good for you, Toby.
I got two other boys this weekand he's best known for his work
in marriage stability anddivorce predictions and he has a
love lab in Washington andSeattle, not that kind of love.
They're doing real work, nothey.
Toby, let it go.
They're doing realpsychological research studies
(32:25):
and actually studies at theUniversity of Washington where
he predicts and he's been doingthis for 40 years he predicts a
couple's marriage will end indivorce within a 30 within a 91
percent accuracy rate where washe when the elections were
taking place?
you know what I say?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
we're dealing with politics.
But Okay, yes, but you knowwhat.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's so much and it's so good because what he
discovered, too, it's not aboutwhat you're saying, because a
lot of psychologists andmarriage therapists look at
what's going wrong and he said,like for the first 10 years
that's where he started.
Then he realized he was gettingit wrong.
They start searching whatmarriages work and what did they
(33:08):
do right and how can we?
Is there any way for us to takethis and make it applicable to
helping people making theirmarriage whole, but also putting
up a red flag quickly and sayyou know, like Whoopi Goldberg
said in Ghost, you're in danger,girl.
I think we should have him onthe podcast and he can tell us.
Whoopi Goldberg said in Ghostyou endanger girl.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think we should have him on the podcast and he
can tell us Whoopi.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Goldberg, oh, no, the doctor, I think he's above our
pay grade.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
You never know.
We should have him on thepodcast and decide whether or
not.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
This man sold a million copies over a million
copies of one book.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
We've got over a million Lies.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
But anyway, I just want to talk about two.
It's a really good workshopbook and honestly I would
strongly suggest everyone that'sin a relationship or marriage.
It could not hurt for you andyour partner to do some of these
exercises together.
So one of the one of his mainpoints it's called the magic
ratio.
One of his main points it'scalled the magic ratio and the
(34:10):
magic ratio is five to one, oneof Gottman's most notable
findings.
In the magic ratio hediscovered that for a
relationship to be stable andhealthy, there should be at
least five positive interactionsfor every negative one.
Five to one, okay, so what doesthat look like?
And the next one, because again, we could do a whole podcast on
(34:33):
this.
So you get the positive andnegative.
I think that's kind ofself-explanatory, but I bought
this one up just because itsounds odd and goofy and I like
odd and goofy.
The next area where he doesresearch and breakdown it's
called the Four Horsemen of theApocalypse.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That sounds pretty heavy.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I know.
That's why I like it.
It said Gottman identifies fourcommunication patterns that are
strong predictors ofrelationship breakdown.
So I just want to give it toyou.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Bringing up nasty stuff from the past.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
No, but when you throw a rock in a dark room, a
hit dog a holler.
So if any of this hits you, I'mjust saying.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Hey, I'm in Alabama now.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So if you're a hit dog, then try to be silent.
Number one criticism Attackinga partner's character rather
than addressing specificbehavior.
Number two contentmentDisplaying disrespect.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Contentment or contempt Contentment?
Did I say content?
Yeah, I was going to say I'msorry, being happy, thank you
for catching me on that.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
No contempt.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Contempt.
Okay, gotcha Not content.
I was going to say if I'm happy, I'm in trouble.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Thank, you for catching me on that.
Yeah, you know you're held incontempt, that's right.
But contempt meant displayingdisrespect.
Sarcasm what Sarcasm?
Stop it.
Or disdain which erodesprotection.
Number four defensiveness.
(36:08):
I don't know why you say that.
Right Responded to a conflictwith self protection instead of
openness.
And I like this one.
I kind of really did, doug.
I says I'm just gonna bring itup.
Um, mention it, it's calledstonewalling, and stonewalling
just to FYI, before I read, thisis typically done.
Um, when stonewalling shows upin a relationship, 91% of the
time it's in men.
Just saying that's what theresearch said now I'm
(36:30):
stonewalling.
I'm gonna read what stonewall itis stonewalling, withdrawing
from interaction or shuttingdown emotionally, which creates
disconnect.
That's what the research says.
I'm just so humble servantsharing information that the
research says.
So it's what I mean.
(36:51):
I bought this up.
This has nothing to do withanything, but but got Barry.
I'll state the last statementfrom Godman, because he's not
paying me to sell his books andI'm not trying to sell his when
we have an amount him on.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Did you say?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Godman Works emphasized that relationships
should not just avoid negativeinteraction but actively
cultivate positive ones tomaintain emotional health.
Voila, that's what I said, allof this.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Voila.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and I think one of the and I don't disagree
with anything there, and I wasthinking about it as you went
through it and that again again,men and women tend to be wired
very differently.
Guys can get in a bar fight andthen go enjoy a beer together,
whereas women tend to be muchmore keep kind of the baggage
(37:41):
kind of stays along.
And I remember one of thethings that really used to
bother me you and I have talkedabout this is when, when we have
an argument I want to get itresolved.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Okay, move on.
Toby, you don't have to be thatdramatic.
You could have did a subtlepause, subtle pause Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Anyway.
So the reality is, when we havean argument, I want to get to a
point where we're both goodwith that topic and then we're
like are we good?
We're good, okay, and what Imean in my mind, we're good
means it's not going to comeback six months later as part of
baggage from another situation,because the last thing I want
to do is get into an argumentsix months from now and say and
(38:21):
remember the time back in 1812that you've got to leave that
stuff behind.
And it's not always that easyto do, because if, if the bags
just pile up, you can't fightsomething that you either don't
remember to happen three yearsago or that you thought was
resolved that time ago.
Now to the same point, and youbrought this up it's not my job
to tell you when you're over it,so it's your job to repeat that
(38:44):
again, because I bought that upand I said yes, and that's very
true, it's your job to decide.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Repeat that again, because I bought that up and I
said what?
And that's very true, it wasbrilliant.
So I just want you to say itagain.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Brilliant may be a bit strong I taught you what?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
What did I teach you?
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Not much.
Anyway, it really is up to theperson who is offended to decide
when they're no longer offendedor when something bothers them
and no longer bothers them, butit's also their responsibility
to work very hard to get to thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
And that's going to tie into the very last point
that I made as far as I startedit on this note and I'm going to
end it on this note isknowledge is knowing.
I think the problem in a lot ofrelationships and even in the
situation you gave that waspersonal to us is saying people
think because they discuss asubject, because we talked about
(39:27):
it, we talked about that.
You hear a couple sit all thetime.
We didn't, we just talk aboutthat last night.
Why are we talking about thatagain?
Talking about something andcoming to some kind of resolve
is two different things.
Discussing something is justairing away like a fart.
It's just out there and thatmeans nothing.
I did not fart.
I said stop looking at me likeI passed gas in the wind.
Like a fart.
It's just out there and thatmeans nothing.
I did not fart.
(39:47):
I said stop looking at me likeI passed that was like no, I'm
just.
That was like out of nowhereit's a fart in the wind, just
wow, because people put theregoes our peachy relationships
put so much, you know, energy on.
Well, we talked about it already.
We discussed that we coulddiscuss something until the cows
come home, until I'm blue inthe face, but do we discuss it
(40:11):
and come to some kind of resolveor some kind of agreement of?
This is how I see it and thisis how you see it.
A lot of times what happens ispeople just say I'm over it
Because we keep talking about itand I'm over this conversation.
The last thing, gottman dear it, reference this back to
knowledge.
I thought was was powerful andhe used this quote and I had to
(40:33):
look it up and think about it.
He says even a Bible.
He said Bible.
The term to know is often usedas a Euphemism of sexual
relations.
Yes, so in it means yada.
So I think it goes back toNoah's knowledge and he was
saying in a relationship, hegives you a lot of these steps
(40:53):
to do the work because we thinkwe know people, because we were
married or we live with them andday to day or whatever.
So what we tend to know istheir routine, but we don't know
that people like he come, andespecially if you're in a
relationship with somebody who'syou know very routine and
predictable.
You know he comes in at acertain time.
You're going to eat this.
(41:14):
Do this fall asleep on thecouch?
I know I'm like the back of myhand.
No, you know that person'sroutine like the back of your
hand.
But do you know their hopes,their dreams, their fears?
Do you really know theincontroversies of how this
person got to be and to care todo that work?
Because there's power in thatknowledge.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
So one of the things we didn't really talk about but
I had in my notes is how dopeople find themselves?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Maybe we did talk about it but how do they find
themselves picking the wrongperson to spend their time with?
How do they find?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
themselves.
Picking the wrong person,picking the wrong.
Okay, explain that for me.
Why do people match up withother folks?
So I guess one of the thingsI'd say is we talked about
broken bird syndrome.
So I guess one of the thingsI'd say is we talked about
broken bird syndrome.
So sometimes people believethey're in love with somebody
because they think they can fixthem.
So they get into theserelationships and they're, like
(42:15):
this person's, unhappy I canmake them happy.
Or they don't understand what agreat person they are.
I'm going to show them what agreat person they are.
So it becomes a very one-sidedrelationship.
It comes back again toself-confidence.
I mean it's really hard to givesomebody else self-confidence.
In fact, by definition youcan't give somebody else
self-confidence.
The other thing is, if we don'tsee, as I said before, in our
(42:39):
early relationships what lovereally is, we get into a
relationship and then finally wesay let's really not love.
And I mean one of the thingsthat I've said to you before is
when you and I have an argument.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
We don't argue, okay when you and I go at it and get
really angry with each other,you're really angry.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
It bothers me, it affects me, and that, to me, is
a byproduct of my care for you.
If I didn't really care, I'd belike you know, and then the
final thing I would say is lovedoesn't mean you have to spend
every minute of every day withthe person.
You have to understand aperson's ability to spend time
together and the ability tospend time apart, and I think
(43:17):
you know, speaking personally,we love to do stuff together and
then we love to do stuff apart,and so that's part of
understanding the nature of theperson that you, hopefully, are
going to spend the rest of yourlife with.
Not everybody likes to be, youknow, just smothered.
Um, you know, you may find thata person wants a little time to
themselves.
That doesn't mean that they'renot loyal or that they don't
(43:39):
love.
They just need time tothemselves, and so I just think,
but that goes back to yet againwhat he was saying.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's a, it's about that knowledge, because you have
to care enough to want to knowhow to communicate.
So if you have a, if you areproclivity in our words are a
little reverse well, I'm the onethat shuts down, you know.
So if I, if I'm more apt toshut down and you want to your
(44:07):
desire to truly make sure thatI'm OK, how do we acknowledge
that and respect each otherboundaries and what systems do
we set up to make sure we arerespecting each other's
boundaries and yet still gettingwhat we need?
But that's care enough to know.
And he used an example and Ithought this was really profound
.
But that's care enough to know.
And he used an example and Ithought this was really profound
(44:27):
.
He said it was a doctor and hisresearch lab.
Of course a doctor, chances are, he's highly educated and very
smart, but he didn't knowanything about his wife or his
family because his, his care,his passion, concern was going
to his job, so he would comehome.
He was like he didn't evenrealize, when they started doing
(44:49):
his research, the dog's name.
Like how do you not know he hada dog?
He knew he had a dog, but hedidn't care enough to get
involved.
When they got the dog he wasworking.
When he did this.
He's working.
So time passed on and that'sthe dog and that's what he
called him.
But one day they they gave astory where the wife decided she
kept doing all these things tosave her relationship and her
(45:09):
marriage and she went to hiswork and, surprised, packed a
lunch and took the kids.
I thought this was aninfidelity story, like, oh, you
did.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
She's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I thought, that's what.
I was doing Research said thatshe just decided to surprise him
.
At work I was like I don't knowgirl, this is going to end
poorly.
I'm going to go work out for you.
But what changed for her is?
She showed up and yet again hewas checking his pager you know
it's an old story Checking hispager and his beeper waiting,
you know, looking for calls andseeing what's important.
(45:41):
And even though his family wasthere and surprised him, he did
not make time.
But his phone rang again.
I thought it was an infidelitystory because people, that's
what we think.
When you, when you're not lovingme, you love someone.
If you're not showing meattention, you show attention.
So technically, he was showingattention someone else.
It was his work and when it came, his demeanor changed, his tone
(46:06):
changed.
He was like, oh you know, andfor the first time in his wife's
life she realized he did havethe capacity to care about what
he cared about.
So he clearly didn't care aboutyou what he cared about.
But I'm sharing a story to saysometimes that's how it is and a
lot of times we go toinfidelity because when we see
(46:28):
traits that are made to havecapacity to do things, they just
don't do it with us.
Then a lot of times it takes todo the work and have that
knowledge of where it's goingand how how can we balance that?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
so, yeah, I guess the my final thought and you and I
have talked about this is to me,a relationship and love and
being in a long-term healthyrelationship is about little
things, and it's little thingsthat you do that the other
person appreciates and this isme.
But I can't continue to dolittle things that I find that I
(47:04):
do out of love or affection andnot have them be reciprocated.
I know you disagree with that.
You believe that love can beone way, but to me it's like
Well, don't say it like that.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I don't want people to think you could be a love and
it's just totally one-sided.
Exactly, that's not it, butanyway.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
So to me it's like if you do little things and
they're appreciated, you doanother little thing that's
appreciated and you do somethingelse and what that does is it
just continues that type of youknow, that type of healthy,
meaningful, and it doesn't haveto be anything big.
You know, guys, you know buysome flowers every now and then,
you know, make your partner acup of coffee.
(47:40):
You know, take them out todinner, Go to a concert.
I mean just little things, Notbecause you have to, Not because
it's February 14th, but becauseit's just kind of fun and
because you want to spend timeand because your partner's been
busy lately or because you guyshave been kind of distant.
Just do those things.
It's kind of like that surpriseand delight and what you'll
(48:03):
find especially and I'll saythis from a man's perspective
women and delight and whatyou'll find especially and I'll
say this from a man'sperspective women appreciate
those types of things because itdoesn't mean that it has to
cost a lot to mean a lot.
And so I think if you care, youneed to fight for your
relationship and you need toshow that you care through
little actions and things thatyou do and before I feel, like
I've said before, I close likefive times but for this very
(48:26):
last time, because you just saidsomething, because you
specifically address men, andjust not in a bad way.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
You called out things for me.
Now this is me giving myopinion, but I'm still going to
ask you to consider my opinion.
Consider a stop.
With a happy wife, happy lifethat when I hear it, it's
cringeworthy for me.
And let me tell you it'scringeworthy for me and let me
tell you why it's cringeworthyfor me.
It's a relationship.
A relationship is two.
(48:53):
If you're in a relationshipwith yourself, you really need
help.
But a relationship is twopeople.
So it should never be happywife, happy life.
And I, I know the intention,whoever created that had great
intentions.
But if that was reversed and itwas saying you know, happy man,
(49:13):
the family stands, whatevercrazy thing, what women will be
ticked like.
You know we would.
You know it was like it can't.
But it shouldn't be a, itshould be us.
It's a happy home and it takesboth of us to be happy.
My needs are no greater thanyours and your needs are no
greater than mine.
Is loving each other enough tocare about?
(49:34):
How do we have a happy life?
And a happy life equals a happyhome.
Now on it I am ending, andtoday on the perch peak.
Loyalty is powerful.
It has the potential to stretchus or shrink us, to lift us up
(49:59):
or hold us down.
But when loyalty becomes aweight, a saddle that binds us
rather than to free us, maybeit's time to ask ourselves some
hard questions.
Loyalty is a choice andsometimes it requires sacrifice.
But have we ever truly pausedto ask what am I sacrificing?
(50:20):
Have I given so much of myselfthat I've lost pieces that I
could never get back?
Think about it.
After years of giving andholding on, have you ever done
the math and realized thatsomewhere along the way, you
lost the essence of who you are?
(50:42):
And in return, what did youtruly gain?
If all that is left is aversion of you that feels hollow
, a shell of love you hope for,is it worth the price of loyalty
?
Loyalty should be a force thatpreserves the best of us, that
(51:05):
nurtures and strengthens us.
It should never erode who weare.
So I leave you with this thoughtConsider if you've been pouring
into, if you been pouringyourself out until there's
nothing, almost nothing left.
Until there's nothing, almostnothing left.
(51:27):
Maybe it's time to ask who youreally.
Who are you really being loyalto?
Because, in the end, trueloyalty should never come at a
price of losing yourself.
Let your loyalty uplift andaffirm you, not diminish you.
You deserve that as much.
And remember your perch isn'tjust a place to sit, it's a
(51:51):
place to seek higher perspective.
Yet again, thank you guys foranother perch Great episode for
me.
I'm excited about this episodejust because, energetically, I
think this is the first time,like literally.
For those of you don't knowwhen we do Perch, toby doesn't
know where I'm going.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Because normally she's wrong.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
He doesn't know where I'm going.
We just know the topic and keepour opinions to ourselves and
to the show.
But a great show, great episode.
Thanks, partner.
Again, I'm Tree and this isToby.
Thank you for joining us onApproach.
Until we meet again, take care.
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