November 27, 2024 • 38 mins
Workplace Loyalty: Is It Still Relevant in Today’s Shifting Culture?
In a world where workplace loyalty often feels one-sided, can we still find meaning in being committed to employers who may not always return the favor? As modern work culture evolves, we’re faced with uncomfortable truths about what it means to dedicate ourselves to our jobs truly and whether doing so is even worth it. Social media platforms like LinkedIn and Facebook have blurred the lines between professional identity and personal expression, adding complexity to our sense of belonging at work.
This episode challenges you to think deeply: Is loyalty a relic of the past, or can it adapt to a world where boundaries between work and life are increasingly fluid? Together, we explore the cost of allegiance, the power of setting boundaries, and how redefining commitment might allow us to reclaim our time, energy, and purpose.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Good day Perch people .
Thank you for joining.
For those of you new, thank youand welcome.
What are those marks that youare making?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You know the way the president will get up and
there's a guy who does like.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Presidents, don't that's like court gestures.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Anyway, welcome, not court gestures, hand signal,
sign language Can we focus?
I'm doing sign language.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Okay, good job.
So good job, toby.
I'm going to give him a sockpuppet and just put him in a
corner and leave him over there.
That's what we're going to do,I'm sorry, welcome.
Thank you for joining this showAgain.
For those of you who haven'tfollowed, we're in a
four-episode series.
This is episode three and it'sbeen a series about loyalty, so
(00:50):
in this episode it's aboutcareers and the topic question
for today is it normal to commityourself to something that
doesn't have the ability tocommit to you?
Where, say you, you want me tostart Fire away, doesn't have
the ability to commit to you?
Waste to you.
You want me to start.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Fire away.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So this is what I have to say and this came up for
various reasons.
It's almost similar to a showwe had about a year ago this
time, but this came out in aseries, so it was, you know, par
for the course.
The question came up in aconversation that Toby and I was
(01:30):
having because a lot's going onon LinkedIn.
I don't know if anybody is onLinkedIn.
For those of you on it,linkedin used to be a space
where networking forprofessionals and a lot of the
Facebook comments and posts andand political things that kind
of cross it over into LinkedIn.
But the question became you see, a lot of people who are making
(01:53):
their purse their professional,like personal and they're
taking everything personal andand they're venting out in
public.
Personally, you know, I thinkit's some.
Some things are healthy.
Everyone is entitled to dowhatever we have to do.
But Toby brought up the pointand I thought it was worth
discussing.
Like you know, why do peoplefeel like companies should be
(02:16):
loyal?
And they're not people, it'sorganizations, it's companies.
So that led to a lengthydiscussion.
Companies so that led to alengthy discussion.
Ie led us to this topic.
It's difficult, so I'm justgoing to say my two cents.
Shocking, I'm in the middle.
I get both sides because it isa network and it is a social
(02:37):
network.
It is, but it's also the placenow that it's common for most
companies to go to vet newemployees, check your background
and really look up on you.
And one could perch we don'targue, we perch.
One could perch and say that itshould be a safe space to to
(02:58):
help people who are having, youknow, personal issues with
corporations on how to cope, howto handle it.
It's a support system.
It's a network of like-mindedindividuals who sometimes felt
silenced.
They didn't have the voice, thesupport to speak up.
And if it's for the betterment,which essentially will make you
(03:20):
a better candidate or employee.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
No harm, no foul, yeah and this is going to
surprise anybody who's listenedto us before I tend to be pretty
old school about this.
The two social media channelsthat I use most exclusively is
Facebook and LinkedIn.
Again, for the demographic thatI fit in, those seem to be the
most common.
But I really distinguishbetween Facebook being my
(03:44):
friends and I'm very selectiveof who I let into that circle
because it's a personal network.
It's personal things about meor my family or things like that
, and I covet that.
That's not just any jamoke thatcomes along that goes into that
grouping.
Linkedin is different To me.
Linkedin is a professionalnetwork and anybody who wants to
(04:05):
network with me I'm good withit.
So anybody who tries to connectwith me short of you know, a
rug salesman in Baghdad, I'mpretty sure it's probably not in
my corporate circle.
You know I'm going to invite oraccept their invitation.
But to your point, there seemsto have been a change that went
on recently where Facebook wasalways full of crazy shit, where
(04:27):
people would post all kinds ofstuff and obviously we had the
political banter and if you havea friend who's a little bit
fringe left or fringe right orwhatever, you got used to that
and you saw it and you eitherturned them off for a little
while or you clicked past it andthat was good.
Now we're starting to see thisin LinkedIn and I was really
shocked because my perspectivehas always been LinkedIn is a
(04:48):
professional network and youkind of keep your personal
feelings out of that.
It's this is what I do for aliving.
This is what I believe.
Oh, here's an interestingarticle I saw about, you know,
supply side economics, or?
Hey, I just saw that Wendy's issigning up with Shake Shack to
offer cheeseburgers on airplanesand something that fits into my
lane.
(05:08):
But now you're seeing peoplereally weigh in on things that
are opinionated and there's ableed there.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
But I understand what you're saying.
Two things.
One, I've got to go back toFacebook, and Facebook to me and
this is just me, it isn't it.
I find it funny and you said itso I'm gonna call it out that
people call a place for yourfriends.
It's your friend, real friendsaren't on Facebook, meaning your
friends.
You, you should be talking to,communicating and seeing.
(05:39):
So if you have a Facebookfriendship relationship, I for
me, I just think that's weird,but that that's just me, because
I mean, if I call you my friend, I'm talking well, but there
are friends and their friends.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I mean, we talked about it this morning.
There's there's a gentlemanthat I went to school with that
literally I haven't seen in 30years.
I would still consider him afriend.
We went to high school together, we were best of buds, and I
follow him through Facebook.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
But back on the topic ofcareers.
This goes back to our.
I'm noticing a theme throughoutall of these podcasts and a lot
of it at the root, core of themis flexibility, and we've been
so rigid on, I'm just going tosay, old school versus new
(06:27):
school.
So, as far as corporate America, what its corporations look
like, what its corporateaccountability, what its
corporate responsibility, it isevolving and every time there's
evolution comes in.
You know, resistance comesWhenever evolution like
resistance, it's evil is is onthe other side of that.
(06:48):
So I think I hear it, I see ita lot.
I see all the comments.
I hear people say this is not aplace for this and this is not
a place for that.
I get the differentiation whenit's like politics or something,
politics or something, butwhenever it's in the vein of a
(07:09):
career, a job, a corporation,there is an emotional element to
it, there is a connection to itand there's expectations.
And what I'm seeing now, andthe data shows, those
expectations are generational.
We talked about this in aprevious podcast that you know
older people think theexpectation is you should have
no expectations.
Your expectations you expect toget paid and expect to go home.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I do work, you pay me .
Lather, rinse, repeat, right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that has evolved and there is an expectation is I
expect to do work and I expectto get paid, but I also don't
expect to get treated like asecond class citizen.
I don't expect to have a toxic,hostile environment and because
there's such a push to get ridof the level of toxicity in
(07:56):
corporations, that's theresidual of it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
But I always and again old school believe that
your job was not a place for youto spout your own personal
beliefs.
It's a place to come in andwork and do work.
And I'm not saying you come inand you're an automaton.
But I am shocked by and I'llleave it after this but I'm
shocked by the fact that peopleshare such visceral responses to
(08:23):
things on LinkedIn.
I was doing some work onLinkedIn earlier today and
somebody posted an acquisition.
So company A is acquiringcompany B.
And five years ago you wouldhave seen, oh, congratulations,
or I hope it works out.
This was they're going to drivethem into the ground.
These guys are bloodsuckers.
(08:44):
You know, bye-bye restaurant,you'll never make money again.
And I'm like holy cow, theseare attacks.
And the first thing I do when Isee somebody who writes
something very incendiary is Ilook at what their title is.
So I see if they're like CEO ofMcDonald's or the IT manager at
.
You know, and most of the timethese people have very now
(09:05):
nebulous titles.
You know, thought leader, blah,something like that.
Or you know, disruptor orchange agent.
So now they're kind of hidingbehind that as well, Although
presumably their name is thereand presumably it's them.
But I'm surprised at howvisceral their response was as
opposed to and you know, I havethe philosophy if I have an
(09:27):
emotional reaction I'll tell myfriends and colleagues, maybe,
but I'm not going to post it onLinkedIn, where thousands of
people could see it and judge me.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I get that and people will judge and people do, and
we have no control of that.
But I find it interesting thatand this is is I'm not trying to
whitewash anything, but it'salways so easy to pick on a
little guy, it's always so easyto blame people and not
(09:57):
companies or people in ourprocesses.
My point what happens whencorporations are have some
responsibility in this change oftone and conversation and they
just wipe their hands from it,meaning corporation decide have
decided to.
When we went to the M&A, themergers and acquisitions Society
(10:21):
of America, and everybody ismerging and acquisitions galore
what corporations did is say nowwe have to, and with social
media, we have to brand, we haveto market, we have to make
visible what we stand for.
Follow me just for a minute.
So corporations said okay.
(10:41):
So they all came up and in thebackground I used to be in your
business plan where nobodybesides you know C-suite knew
your business model, what yourplan was, what your mission
statement was.
They start singing it to gloryCorporations, we are leading the
way of this and that and thisand that, and so people raise
their hand and say but it'stoxic, but it's not, because now
(11:04):
you have clearly articulatedwhat you stand for.
You have clearly took marketingstance, you took branding
stance and said you all thesethings.
So the people are saying, butit doesn't work for me, but it's
toxic.
But it's this because that'sthe visceral response, for when
you say you are something and Isee you are not, you didn't get
(11:28):
this, so you can say, well, wedidn't have social media, but
people didn't know it.
But when you put that S on yourchest corporations and say this
I am baby, you better you talkthe talk, you better walk the
walk, because people will inturn.
That's why we have a views,reviews and people.
Now, when they look for a job,they go to your site and say who
(11:48):
you are, because loyalty.
Now, that's why we're havingthis conversation.
What is it?
Because corporations aren'tloyal and employees don't feel
the need to be loyal.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And I wanted to key on that because this four-part
series has been very interestingbecause loyalty in each of
these categories means somethingentirely different.
It does we use the word the same.
We use loyalty whether we'retalking about a marriage or a
relationship.
We talk about loyalty to acompany or loyalty to a cause,
or I think on our next one we'regoing to talk about loyalty to
(12:22):
religion or other organizedsocial areas, but loyalty when
it comes to a company haschanged over the years, and I
think that's what makes it sofascinating.
When you told me we were goingto do this topic, I started with
a couple of theories, and oneof them was people are more
loyal back then than they aretoday.
(12:42):
The facts don't bear that out,and so I want to talk about that
for a second.
The other thing was I just feltlike loyalty today was
non-existent, and everything Iread led me to believe that it's
not that loyalty doesn't exist,but that loyalty to your point
exactly there has changed, andthe contract has changed.
(13:03):
The loyalty contract has changed.
The other thing I wanted totalk about is loyalty to
companies, two things Loyalty toa company you work for, we'll
talk about in a minute.
But loyalty to a brand, forinstance, I would argue to a
great extent is non-existent.
And let me tell you why.
I work in the restaurantindustry.
Tria works in the supply chainin the restaurant industry as
(13:25):
well.
What's prevalent in therestaurant industry?
Tree works in the supply chainin the restaurant industry as
well.
What's prevalent in therestaurant industry is loyalty
programs.
Right by name, they call themloyalty programs.
So starbucks has a loyaltyprogram and wendy's has a
loyalty program and a lot of thefast food brands have loyalty
programs.
And what do they do?
Do they just say come see usbecause you love us?
No, they say come see us andwe'll give you free shit.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
But that makes a great.
I don't know if this is whereyou're going, but it didn't even
dawn on me to say that I'm agenius.
You're not a genius, calm down.
So what that says, though, itliterally is the antithesis of
where we are, because evenloyalty programs aren't loyal.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No, all you hear is I'm buying you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I am buying you, but even when you buy me, you use me
like a old rubber shoe andthrow me away.
Because what you hearconstantly is every time, almost
every corporation out therethat has a loyal program change
it.
They make it difficult, harderand harder, harder and harder
same thing.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
50 000 miles, and it's 75 000 miles and that's
where I was going is thatloyalty programs do not espouse
loyalty.
They actually teach badbehavior.
What they say is I'm going togive you free stuff as long as
you do this.
So come in three times, I'llgive you this.
Spend $100, I'll give you this,oh, and then next time you
spend 150 and I'll give you this.
It doesn't espouse loyalty,because what happens is when I
(14:43):
get to that level and I get thefree stuff, I then have to
reevaluate Is it worth climbingthat mountain again to get that
free cheeseburger, or is itreally worth climbing that
mountain again and getting freeupgrades on an airline?
And what they do is you know, Ifly American Airlines almost
exclusively.
Why?
Because that's where my milesare.
(15:03):
Am I loyal to them?
No, I'm loyal to the fact thatthey will treat me differently
than Delta, because I havecardboard status on Delta and I
have executive platinum statuson another airline and they
treat me better.
So my loyalty is to who's goingto pay me off, who's going to
buy me.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And I hate it because the last podcast I actually had
the definition and I don't haveit with me.
This is what I need to look at.
When it comes down to loyalty,I'm a person that's a firm
believer that words have power.
I think we should stop sayingloyal because it shouldn't be a
loyalty, and I remember havingthis conversation and got a lot
(15:44):
of pushback in leadership.
I said, like you know, and Iwas called.
I was like Patricia, you aren'tloyal to this company.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I said no, I'm gonna talk about.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I said I am a hard-working, I am committed, I
am loyal to myself and mybeliefs, or whatever.
Whoever gets me is gonna getsomeone who's gonna give a
hundred and twenty percent.
That's my character, that's mynature but, that's my loyalty
and commitment to myself.
But I don't owe a companyloyalty.
I owe them to show up and dothe best job.
(16:14):
Put a pin in that because Iwant to come back to that one.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I just want to finish one more thing, and then we'll
go in that direction.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I'm putting a pin in it.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Put a pin in that one Back to you In my world and we
consult in restaurant business.
I try to get our clients to getaway from the loyalty word and
use the word recognition.
Recognize that your people,that your customers, are unique,
and if you treat them as uniquepeople, they will become fans,
they will become fanatical.
You know what fan means, right?
(16:40):
So if you treat somebodydifferently, they will pay more,
they will go further, they willcross the street, they will
make changes in their plansbecause they are now loyal to
you.
A loyalty program does not makeyou loyal.
A recognition program does.
So let's go back to what youwere talking about, which is how
(17:04):
you define loyalty.
When you work for a company andall companies will say to your
point you're not loyal, you'renot a loyal employee.
So go ahead and start.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
and then I want to know what I was saying because
we were having it.
It's the word you know and andpeople say things naturally
because it feels good and that'sjust not in my dna.
If it's not truthful, I'm notsaying it.
It's not truthful meaning.
Let's let's look at thedefinition, even in loyalty, in
order for you to say you areloyal to something, even in a
(17:32):
definition.
I don't have the exact answerin front of me.
Part of that is you will giveand commit and do, even when you
know it's not reciprocated,right?
So that's what loyalty in adefinition is.
So tell me you're loyal to acompany that decide one day you
work 40 hours that they're notgoing to pay.
You are you going?
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Let's be honest, so I started down the same road that
you did, ironically enough andthe first thing I said how would
you define loyalty?
So do we define loyalty bytenure, right?
If you stay with a company for30 years, are you loyal to them,
you know?
Or are you just so lazy youdidn't want to go find another
job?
Or do you realize that you'recoasting and nobody else will
(18:12):
pay you for it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I said that this was.
There was someone that workedfor me and I said to this person
this person was you could setyour clock by this person.
They came in, you could setyour clock this person.
They came in, you could set theplot your clock that they were
gonna leave late and it was anhourly person and they were
gonna come in and they weregonna leave late and they were
(18:35):
committed to timing.
But I said to that person andthey wanted to be rewarded as
such, because I'm loyal, that'swhat that person pretty much
said to me.
I was like being loyal to thechair that you sit your behind
in I didn't use those exactwords and actually coming in and
looking out and doing your bestand helping your team out.
(18:55):
There's rules to this loyaltything, but a lot of people think
because of tenure and I noticedwhere you go, like how dare you
?
Let me go and I've been withyou.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
30 companies in general.
I mean, we hand out goldwatches for somebody's been
there for 30, 40 years and thepresumption is you've been loyal
to the company.
So my theory that I went atwhen I started this is I think
we're gonna find that people areless loyal today than they were
before if we use the definitionof loyal being tenure.
So, I said, I just Googlized andsaid, you know, are people's
(19:29):
tenures going down as the yearsgo on.
So my dad worked for IBM for agazillion years.
You know are tenures as a wholegoing down, and this is what I
found.
According to the EmployeeBenefit Research Institute, or
the EBRI, for those you like toname drop, over the past 40 or
nearly 40 years, the mediumtenure of all waged and salary
(19:50):
employees aged 25 years or olderhas.
Has it gone up, gone down orremained about the same?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
One more time.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Over the past 40 or so years, the medium tenure of
all wage and salary employeesover 25 years old has it gotten
longer, has it gotten shorter?
Has it stayed about?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
the same, it stayed about the same it has stayed
about the same.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
It has stayed about the same in about five years.
So whether you go back 40 yearsago or now, people are staying,
on average, about five years.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I kept digging because I saw different data
points too, and I have some too.
I have a problem with that dataand I and I have a problem with
the data because data can bemanipulated, that's just.
I'm gonna go to put that on mytombstone.
Um, it can't, because I find ithard to believe, because we all
know people that senior andmajority of those people stay
with the same company.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I guess for every one of those there's somebody who
stays for a year, becauseliterally it says that the
median tenure has stayed aboutthe same.
Now what's interesting hashappened is that the overall
trend masks a small butsignificant decrease in tenure
among men, but an offsettingincrease in tenure among women,
(20:58):
and I have some data here too,but this is one this is my own
data point that I'm going tocreate and throw out there.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I have no facts to support what I'm about to say.
I'm just going to throw out ahypothetical.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So you're just spitballing.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, I'm not going to put a number, but I'm just
saying the reason why I strugglewith this.
I'm making a point because weknow factually, for forever I
would even besides IT, ventureto say the last 20 years,
outside of IT American workersworked locally in their
(21:31):
community.
They just did so.
Whatever the big plant was.
Whatever it was, that planttypically fed most of the town.
Through a historical lens,that's how America work has been
and small towns and small townsfor the most part.
But my point being and it wasn'tuntil even remote work started
(21:55):
in IT over 20 years ago.
But when remote work started itstarted changing the landscape
so people didn't have to commit.
But it's hard when you're insmall towns or even, you know,
sometimes even big cities.
You don't have the luxury,where it's far sometimes to get
around.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I don't know, I just struggle with that.
I don't buy that and thenumbers don't bear out what
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Right, if you say so.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I know that's what it is, so that to me was shocking
too because I expected that thetenure 20, 30 years ago would
have been 10 years and now it'sfive years and we would have
seen this decline.
And that's not what the numberssay.
But what is interesting, is thatmen's tenure is getting shorter
, so it's clear that men arelooking to move faster and women
are staying longer, which tellsme or at least my conclusion is
(22:41):
they covet security and justthe comfort of being in the job
rather than chasing somethingelse, and that probably speaks
more to the nature of men versuswomen, but that shocked me.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It really did.
But I find it fascinating too,because I have the data too on,
you know, retention andcompanies spend so much money to
retain because they know they.
It's like the the old saying.
The song goes it's cheaper tokeep her, you know they it ain't
, but that's okay, but it is.
That's why that's why corporatecorporations rather and they
(23:15):
know this it's it's retention.
So 20% of HR managersprioritize employees' retention
as their top concern.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't believe that for a second.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I believe it, I know it because that's what I've
experienced in every corporationI have.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You think they spend more money trying to retain
people than hire people?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
No, no, to retain them and not to lose them.
No Meaning, I don't believethat for a second.
I mean, look at how much if youtalk and this is a good thing
to do.
Yeah, hr, people are doingcartwheels right now.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
They won't tell you this, but if you find a company
spends more time and effort andmoney on hiring people than it
does retaining people, movealong and I think you're going
to find that a lot in companies,and sometimes just innocuously.
You can ask an hr managerwhat's your primary role here,
and if they don't tell you theirprimary role is to grow the,
(24:07):
the knowledge base and thepeople that they have, but it's
to hire and fire move along.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Well, we'll have a whole different.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm gonna get off this subject because that's a
whole another hr nightmareconversation right there.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But it says supportive culture.
Um, according to Zappa, 79% ofemployees, 79% of employees
reported they they would staylonger yeah to a job where they
feel supported, care for howoften does that?
Happen.
But the funny thing is, 79%said I would they didn't say
(24:39):
they weren't.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I am like yeah, I would say if they'd actually
walk the walk cares about meyeah, you know, we've all worked
at companies that that say youknow, we're for employee first
and all that.
And companies that really doreward their employees or make
for a healthy work environmentbenefit you see the tenure in
those organizations.
And you know, again, I work inrestaurants, you know, and I'll
(25:03):
go visit a restaurant companyand this guy's got 17 years of
tenure and this young lady has12 years of tenure and this one
has four, and then I'll go thenext day or the next week to
another one.
It's like I've been here sixweeks and I'm the longest
tenured person.
You're like, oh, okay, well,that tells me a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I just want to add this one thing, and I don't
want to have an HR back andforth, but I do have to add and
this is of course, it's a speakapp the financial implications.
The cost of replacing anemployee can be substantial,
often amounting to twice theirannual salary.
(25:39):
That translates from $25,000 to$100,000 to replace one.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
But that's common sense talking.
How many times have we seen acompany lay off 5,000 people and
two weeks later what do we see?
They're hiring.
So they haven't walked the walk.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But that's a whole other show and that's a reason
for that, even though it seems alot.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's asinine, it's unbelievable.
So I absolutely agree that theHR's primary role is to help
create if we want to use the Lword loyal employees.
So I want to share something.
Forbes magazine did aninteresting survey and they
surveyed 2,000 employees.
Actually, they didn't do thesurvey West Monroe did.
(26:27):
2,000 employees conducted aconsulting firm.
West Monroe revealed somesurprising numbers.
The survey found that 82% ofemployees felt a sense of
loyalty to their currentemployer.
82%.
That's pretty good.
Now, that's impressive.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
but there is a problem, but the key word is a
sense of loyalty.
They didn't say they were loyal.
It gets much better.
They felt.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Even though 82% felt the sense of loyalty, 59% said
they'd leave the current job fora more appealing offer.
So what the hell is loyaltyRight?
So yeah, I'm loyal to thecompany.
Oh, you got a better offer.
Slam.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Well, at least they felt a sense of it.
We want to boo you.
It's like when I put on mySpanx I feel the sense that my
stomach is flatter than it isuntil I take it off.
So it's not real.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I mean, but they just felt the sense of it.
I can't loyalty.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Hey, we know how I feel you put it on and address
it straight.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I don't have a problem with my Spanx, so I felt
a sense of curse, but then,when I took it off, it was a
life raft.
Six out of ten would be likeloyal schmoyle, See ya.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Loyal schmoyle, loyal schmoyle.
That's a Joe Biden right there.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I'm sorry, let me do my, joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
No, please, no, no, no, please.
Let's get back on it.
You know people listen to thisaudio.
They're not going to see howridiculous you're doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I like jelly beans.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Stop it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I'm sorry Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
We're back.
I'm sorry for the people that'swatching on listening on
Spotify.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I apologize, see what you miss if you don't do the
video.
Yes, right, you are disturbed.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Disturbed, no Disturbed.
Oh my God, you made me losetrain of thought, my voice is
gone.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Oh well, God shot.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Excuse me, I'm back.
Okay, you're back I just wantto do a quick.
This is from the US Chamber ofCommerce and I find tell you why
I find it funny after I read it.
A significant number ofemployees leave their position
due to dissatisfaction of pay.
A Pew Research Center studysaid that 63% of workers who
(28:30):
quit cited low pay.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Everybody.
Tell me anybody, but I promiseyou, tell me anybody who
believes they're paidappropriately.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I promise you.
I have heard this and I knowsome people just laugh when I
say this.
Most HR would say people don'tleave because of pay, they leave
because of management.
That's what HR will tellleaders in the organization and
leaders will say to HR no, Iwould defy you to find two
(28:58):
people in your organization.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
There's always one, so two people in your
organization that go.
One, so two people in yourorganizations go.
No, I'm fairly paid and mostlikely, if those people are the
case, it means they do jacknothing.
What's my favorite expression?
Well, we can't say we can't saythat one that would.
That would take our r ratingabove itself, so they don't do
anything.
I don't know of any employeethat's ever worked with me, for
(29:20):
me around me, who would say,yeah, I'm fairly, fairly
compensated.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So yes, we all leave.
Well, I will be.
I will be a liar and ahypocrite if I didn't say I I
have, and it's one of the surveyquestions and we asked and a
lot, of, a lot of people haveworked for me said you know they
are, you know.
Okay, again, just like thatsense of loyalty um a sense of
comfortability.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
We all believe we're worth more right, I think
everybody would want more money.
We all believe that we reallyour value is greater than we get
.
But we do that equation.
We say you know what?
I believe I'm worth X, but I'mwilling to work for X minus.
I don't know if we all feelthat.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I'm sure the majority do, but I have known some
people, even personally in mylife, said that they felt like
they were kind of overpaid,meaning I want to do more and
they're not giving me more to doso.
For the work that I've beengiven, I'm fairly compensated.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I've heard people say I'd like to take on more
responsibility, but I never hearthem say since I have less
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
You could pay me before no say.
They felt like they were fairlycompensated is what I said
because of they're not givingenough to stretch them.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So one of the things that came out of this article
from Forbes and also another onethat came out in March 2023 I
want to go real quick is it saidas a manager, what's your role
in terms of loyalty?
And and it said one of thethings it said was interesting
said it's your job to showloyalty to your employee.
First, show them that you'llhelp them become their best,
(30:49):
show them that they can trustyou, show them that you support
them and presumably loyalty willcome over time and typically
loyalty will be to you as theirmanager and not necessarily to
the company.
And then then the other onethey said, which is really
interesting they said you, as aleader, can only control your
loyalty to them.
You can't control their loyaltyto you.
They said we've personally seenso many managers get trapped in
(31:12):
trying to fix employee behavior.
That seems like the job of aboss, but it's not.
Your job as a leader is tofocus on what you can do to
bring the best out of people andin return, at some point
perhaps they will show loyalty,but you can't control their side
.
The other piece I wanted to hitreally quick is this article in
Forbes, march 2023, that saidEmployee loyalty isn't dead,
(31:34):
it's just changing.
And I want to read this realquick.
It says unlike some of ourolder colleagues, gen Zers are
comfortable in the rapidlychanging web of variables in the
world we live in.
Uncertainty is their naturalhabitat.
You've never known the worldany other way.
So constant change means youcan count on nothing to stay the
same.
Thus, young people today areless likely to trust the system
(31:56):
or the organization to take careof them for an indefinite
period of time.
And that means they're lesslikely, less likely to make
short-term sacrifices forpromises of long-term rewards,
because they don't think they'regoing to be around.
And then, finally, young peopletoday look at the large,
established organization andthink, and I'm sorry, don't look
at the large organization andsay I wonder where I fit in
their picture.
(32:17):
What they say is I wonder howyou fit in mine.
So loyalty is now personal.
It's like what can you do forme?
Oh, you can do that for me.
Yeah, I'll be loyal.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I'm good with that, but not.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I'm going to have to wait a year or two years, or how
many times have we heard youknow through our career, you're
too young for that advancement,or you need three more years
before you go.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Eh, that don't float anymore.
And I really want to be clearwhen I say this.
This is not to knock anyone intheir perception and the way
they see things.
I am one who willwholeheartedly say and direct
that Logistics has been good tome and I was like so you won't
have me.
I was like and I say theindustry itself, I don't give
(33:00):
even, I'll work for.
You know different companies andmy tenure has been long and
most of those companies, but Ithink logistics and I think if
you're in a medical profession,if you're in restaurant and
hospitality, whatever we are,it's been stress, there's been
strife, ups and downs, badeconomies and all of that, but
at the end of the day, these,the industry itself, is how
(33:25):
we've been able to take care andprovide our families.
And so I think for me I wouldalways say it's great to you
know, we call it bless theblesser.
So it's great to bless what youknow.
We call it bless the blesser,so it's it's great to to to
bless what has blessed you.
So I think it's good to say youknow, cause I don't want to
leave with a sour note Like thisis bad and that's bad.
I'm saying whatever, if, if youhave been fortunate to be in
(33:50):
the same industry and sometimesit's been hard people you change
jobs, you've been downsized,acquisitions bought out, let go,
all of that, get it.
But if you have been in thatsame mortgage industry, whatever
you've done, and look back atthe positive, on what you've
gained from and how, in the end,it has been a provider, it may
(34:12):
have been rough and and it hadits patches, so so I just want
to end on that positive note.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Well, what I was going to say too, and I want to
wrap the two pieces that I hadtogether.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You're going to take us higher.
You're not going to bring usdown, are you no?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I believe today's loyalty is really good, because
I think if you're loyal toyourself, then ultimately you
will be the best you can be.
Being loyal to some companythat doesn't have your best
interest in mind whether theysay they are or not is not
correct.
You don't have to be conceitedand self-serving to be loyal to
yourself.
And the last thing I wanted tosay and it wraps together the
(34:44):
loyalty that we talked aboutbefore with loyalty to a brand
and loyalty to a company andthis was again this came out of
psychology today.
Loyalty to an organization todayis kind of the loyalty you give
to a customer.
An organization gets exactly asmuch loyalty as they are
willing to pay for, and it lastsas long as they keep paying.
The real question for employeesnow is what kind of payment is
(35:07):
valuable enough for me to remainloyal to your organization?
So remain loyal to yourself.
In this particular case,loyalty to a company, I believe
is a mirage, and I believe thatit may have existed at one point
in time, and it's now loyaltyto ourselves and we bet on
ourselves every day.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And while you were talking, this came to me because
it's like I can hear peopletalking, that's watching this
and saying what's wrong withbeing loyal?
What's wrong with being loyal?
If that's the word you chooseand that's what you choose to do
, then do you.
But here is something I askeveryone to consider.
The reason why it's concerningwhen you're loyal to a company
(35:48):
or corporation is loyalty goeshand in hand with personal, and
so you're making somethingthat's transactional, because
that's what our pay is, that'swhat our work.
It's transactional.
You're making it personal.
So when we make it personal, ithurts all the more.
It's harder to heal.
You know, it's like I've beenloyal, I've been faithful and
(36:10):
you did this to me and it's notpersonal, even though it's
happening to us.
Corporations do whatcorporations are going to do,
and they're always going to dowhat's in their best interest.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
The other thing is you can still be loyal and leave
a company.
You see, there seems to be afallacy where people say, of all
the things I've done for youand now you leave, and where's
your loyalty?
They're not the same thing.
So if you're out there saying,do I leave this company, I have
(36:41):
a great opportunity, but thiscompany's been so great, Loyalty
is not defined by whether youleave a company or not.
You could be loyal to the dayyou leave and after that you're
loyal to yourself and a companyshould understand that and in a
company that's mature andprofessional might say wow, Tree
had a great opportunity.
We understand why she left andwe hope one day she'll come back
because she was a greatemployee and we loved having her
here and the door is alwaysopen.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Now, how dare they leave me Right?
And on that end, I'll leavewith these amazing words to
thyself be true, no paycheck ortitle will ever sit at your
bedside in your final moments,but your family, your
relationships and the memoriesyou've created with them.
That's your legacy.
(37:23):
If you feel stuck because youthink I can't afford to leave,
ask yourself can you afford tolose more time?
Time is the ultimate investment.
Spend it wisely.
Your perch isn't just a placeto sit.
It's a place to arrive aboveand to gain perspective.
(37:46):
Take the time to evaluate whereyour loyalty is leading you and
whether it's worth the cost.
Until next time, honor yourtime and this the most valuable
thing you'll ever own Until wemeet again.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
We'll talk again soon .
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Be well, see you guys in Perch, thank you.
Good day Perch people .
Thank you for joining.
For those of you new, thank youand welcome.
What are those marks that youare making?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You know the way the president will get up and
there's a guy who does like.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Presidents, don't that's like court gestures.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Anyway, welcome, not court gestures, hand signal,
sign language Can we focus?
I'm doing sign language.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Okay, good job.
So good job, toby.
I'm going to give him a sockpuppet and just put him in a
corner and leave him over there.
That's what we're going to do,I'm sorry, welcome.
Thank you for joining this showAgain.
For those of you who haven'tfollowed, we're in a
four-episode series.
This is episode three and it'sbeen a series about loyalty, so
(00:50):
in this episode it's aboutcareers and the topic question
for today is it normal to commityourself to something that
doesn't have the ability tocommit to you?
Where, say you, you want me tostart Fire away, doesn't have
the ability to commit to you?
Waste to you.
You want me to start.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Fire away.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So this is what I have to say and this came up for
various reasons.
It's almost similar to a showwe had about a year ago this
time, but this came out in aseries, so it was, you know, par
for the course.
The question came up in aconversation that Toby and I was
(01:30):
having because a lot's going onon LinkedIn.
I don't know if anybody is onLinkedIn.
For those of you on it,linkedin used to be a space
where networking forprofessionals and a lot of the
Facebook comments and posts andand political things that kind
of cross it over into LinkedIn.
But the question became you see, a lot of people who are making
(01:53):
their purse their professional,like personal and they're
taking everything personal andand they're venting out in
public.
Personally, you know, I thinkit's some.
Some things are healthy.
Everyone is entitled to dowhatever we have to do.
But Toby brought up the pointand I thought it was worth
discussing.
Like you know, why do peoplefeel like companies should be
(02:16):
loyal?
And they're not people, it'sorganizations, it's companies.
So that led to a lengthydiscussion.
Companies so that led to alengthy discussion.
Ie led us to this topic.
It's difficult, so I'm justgoing to say my two cents.
Shocking, I'm in the middle.
I get both sides because it isa network and it is a social
(02:37):
network.
It is, but it's also the placenow that it's common for most
companies to go to vet newemployees, check your background
and really look up on you.
And one could perch we don'targue, we perch.
One could perch and say that itshould be a safe space to to
(02:58):
help people who are having, youknow, personal issues with
corporations on how to cope, howto handle it.
It's a support system.
It's a network of like-mindedindividuals who sometimes felt
silenced.
They didn't have the voice, thesupport to speak up.
And if it's for the betterment,which essentially will make you
(03:20):
a better candidate or employee.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
No harm, no foul, yeah and this is going to
surprise anybody who's listenedto us before I tend to be pretty
old school about this.
The two social media channelsthat I use most exclusively is
Facebook and LinkedIn.
Again, for the demographic thatI fit in, those seem to be the
most common.
But I really distinguishbetween Facebook being my
(03:44):
friends and I'm very selectiveof who I let into that circle
because it's a personal network.
It's personal things about meor my family or things like that
, and I covet that.
That's not just any jamoke thatcomes along that goes into that
grouping.
Linkedin is different To me.
Linkedin is a professionalnetwork and anybody who wants to
(04:05):
network with me I'm good withit.
So anybody who tries to connectwith me short of you know, a
rug salesman in Baghdad, I'mpretty sure it's probably not in
my corporate circle.
You know I'm going to invite oraccept their invitation.
But to your point, there seemsto have been a change that went
on recently where Facebook wasalways full of crazy shit, where
(04:27):
people would post all kinds ofstuff and obviously we had the
political banter and if you havea friend who's a little bit
fringe left or fringe right orwhatever, you got used to that
and you saw it and you eitherturned them off for a little
while or you clicked past it andthat was good.
Now we're starting to see thisin LinkedIn and I was really
shocked because my perspectivehas always been LinkedIn is a
(04:48):
professional network and youkind of keep your personal
feelings out of that.
It's this is what I do for aliving.
This is what I believe.
Oh, here's an interestingarticle I saw about, you know,
supply side economics, or?
Hey, I just saw that Wendy's issigning up with Shake Shack to
offer cheeseburgers on airplanesand something that fits into my
lane.
(05:08):
But now you're seeing peoplereally weigh in on things that
are opinionated and there's ableed there.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
But I understand what you're saying.
Two things.
One, I've got to go back toFacebook, and Facebook to me and
this is just me, it isn't it.
I find it funny and you said itso I'm gonna call it out that
people call a place for yourfriends.
It's your friend, real friendsaren't on Facebook, meaning your
friends.
You, you should be talking to,communicating and seeing.
(05:39):
So if you have a Facebookfriendship relationship, I for
me, I just think that's weird,but that that's just me, because
I mean, if I call you my friend, I'm talking well, but there
are friends and their friends.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I mean, we talked about it this morning.
There's there's a gentlemanthat I went to school with that
literally I haven't seen in 30years.
I would still consider him afriend.
We went to high school together, we were best of buds, and I
follow him through Facebook.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
But back on the topic ofcareers.
This goes back to our.
I'm noticing a theme throughoutall of these podcasts and a lot
of it at the root, core of themis flexibility, and we've been
so rigid on, I'm just going tosay, old school versus new
(06:27):
school.
So, as far as corporate America, what its corporations look
like, what its corporateaccountability, what its
corporate responsibility, it isevolving and every time there's
evolution comes in.
You know, resistance comesWhenever evolution like
resistance, it's evil is is onthe other side of that.
(06:48):
So I think I hear it, I see ita lot.
I see all the comments.
I hear people say this is not aplace for this and this is not
a place for that.
I get the differentiation whenit's like politics or something,
politics or something, butwhenever it's in the vein of a
(07:09):
career, a job, a corporation,there is an emotional element to
it, there is a connection to itand there's expectations.
And what I'm seeing now, andthe data shows, those
expectations are generational.
We talked about this in aprevious podcast that you know
older people think theexpectation is you should have
no expectations.
Your expectations you expect toget paid and expect to go home.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I do work, you pay me .
Lather, rinse, repeat, right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that has evolved and there is an expectation is I
expect to do work and I expectto get paid, but I also don't
expect to get treated like asecond class citizen.
I don't expect to have a toxic,hostile environment and because
there's such a push to get ridof the level of toxicity in
(07:56):
corporations, that's theresidual of it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
But I always and again old school believe that
your job was not a place for youto spout your own personal
beliefs.
It's a place to come in andwork and do work.
And I'm not saying you come inand you're an automaton.
But I am shocked by and I'llleave it after this but I'm
shocked by the fact that peopleshare such visceral responses to
(08:23):
things on LinkedIn.
I was doing some work onLinkedIn earlier today and
somebody posted an acquisition.
So company A is acquiringcompany B.
And five years ago you wouldhave seen, oh, congratulations,
or I hope it works out.
This was they're going to drivethem into the ground.
These guys are bloodsuckers.
(08:44):
You know, bye-bye restaurant,you'll never make money again.
And I'm like holy cow, theseare attacks.
And the first thing I do when Isee somebody who writes
something very incendiary is Ilook at what their title is.
So I see if they're like CEO ofMcDonald's or the IT manager at
.
You know, and most of the timethese people have very now
(09:05):
nebulous titles.
You know, thought leader, blah,something like that.
Or you know, disruptor orchange agent.
So now they're kind of hidingbehind that as well, Although
presumably their name is thereand presumably it's them.
But I'm surprised at howvisceral their response was as
opposed to and you know, I havethe philosophy if I have an
(09:27):
emotional reaction I'll tell myfriends and colleagues, maybe,
but I'm not going to post it onLinkedIn, where thousands of
people could see it and judge me.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I get that and people will judge and people do, and
we have no control of that.
But I find it interesting thatand this is is I'm not trying to
whitewash anything, but it'salways so easy to pick on a
little guy, it's always so easyto blame people and not
(09:57):
companies or people in ourprocesses.
My point what happens whencorporations are have some
responsibility in this change oftone and conversation and they
just wipe their hands from it,meaning corporation decide have
decided to.
When we went to the M&A, themergers and acquisitions Society
(10:21):
of America, and everybody ismerging and acquisitions galore
what corporations did is say nowwe have to, and with social
media, we have to brand, we haveto market, we have to make
visible what we stand for.
Follow me just for a minute.
So corporations said okay.
(10:41):
So they all came up and in thebackground I used to be in your
business plan where nobodybesides you know C-suite knew
your business model, what yourplan was, what your mission
statement was.
They start singing it to gloryCorporations, we are leading the
way of this and that and thisand that, and so people raise
their hand and say but it'stoxic, but it's not, because now
(11:04):
you have clearly articulatedwhat you stand for.
You have clearly took marketingstance, you took branding
stance and said you all thesethings.
So the people are saying, butit doesn't work for me, but it's
toxic.
But it's this because that'sthe visceral response, for when
you say you are something and Isee you are not, you didn't get
(11:28):
this, so you can say, well, wedidn't have social media, but
people didn't know it.
But when you put that S on yourchest corporations and say this
I am baby, you better you talkthe talk, you better walk the
walk, because people will inturn.
That's why we have a views,reviews and people.
Now, when they look for a job,they go to your site and say who
(11:48):
you are, because loyalty.
Now, that's why we're havingthis conversation.
What is it?
Because corporations aren'tloyal and employees don't feel
the need to be loyal.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And I wanted to key on that because this four-part
series has been very interestingbecause loyalty in each of
these categories means somethingentirely different.
It does we use the word the same.
We use loyalty whether we'retalking about a marriage or a
relationship.
We talk about loyalty to acompany or loyalty to a cause,
or I think on our next one we'regoing to talk about loyalty to
(12:22):
religion or other organizedsocial areas, but loyalty when
it comes to a company haschanged over the years, and I
think that's what makes it sofascinating.
When you told me we were goingto do this topic, I started with
a couple of theories, and oneof them was people are more
loyal back then than they aretoday.
(12:42):
The facts don't bear that out,and so I want to talk about that
for a second.
The other thing was I just feltlike loyalty today was
non-existent, and everything Iread led me to believe that it's
not that loyalty doesn't exist,but that loyalty to your point
exactly there has changed, andthe contract has changed.
(13:03):
The loyalty contract has changed.
The other thing I wanted totalk about is loyalty to
companies, two things Loyalty toa company you work for, we'll
talk about in a minute.
But loyalty to a brand, forinstance, I would argue to a
great extent is non-existent.
And let me tell you why.
I work in the restaurantindustry.
Tria works in the supply chainin the restaurant industry as
(13:25):
well.
What's prevalent in therestaurant industry?
Tree works in the supply chainin the restaurant industry as
well.
What's prevalent in therestaurant industry is loyalty
programs.
Right by name, they call themloyalty programs.
So starbucks has a loyaltyprogram and wendy's has a
loyalty program and a lot of thefast food brands have loyalty
programs.
And what do they do?
Do they just say come see usbecause you love us?
No, they say come see us andwe'll give you free shit.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
But that makes a great.
I don't know if this is whereyou're going, but it didn't even
dawn on me to say that I'm agenius.
You're not a genius, calm down.
So what that says, though, itliterally is the antithesis of
where we are, because evenloyalty programs aren't loyal.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No, all you hear is I'm buying you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I am buying you, but even when you buy me, you use me
like a old rubber shoe andthrow me away.
Because what you hearconstantly is every time, almost
every corporation out therethat has a loyal program change
it.
They make it difficult, harderand harder, harder and harder
same thing.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
50 000 miles, and it's 75 000 miles and that's
where I was going is thatloyalty programs do not espouse
loyalty.
They actually teach badbehavior.
What they say is I'm going togive you free stuff as long as
you do this.
So come in three times, I'llgive you this.
Spend $100, I'll give you this,oh, and then next time you
spend 150 and I'll give you this.
It doesn't espouse loyalty,because what happens is when I
(14:43):
get to that level and I get thefree stuff, I then have to
reevaluate Is it worth climbingthat mountain again to get that
free cheeseburger, or is itreally worth climbing that
mountain again and getting freeupgrades on an airline?
And what they do is you know, Ifly American Airlines almost
exclusively.
Why?
Because that's where my milesare.
(15:03):
Am I loyal to them?
No, I'm loyal to the fact thatthey will treat me differently
than Delta, because I havecardboard status on Delta and I
have executive platinum statuson another airline and they
treat me better.
So my loyalty is to who's goingto pay me off, who's going to
buy me.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And I hate it because the last podcast I actually had
the definition and I don't haveit with me.
This is what I need to look at.
When it comes down to loyalty,I'm a person that's a firm
believer that words have power.
I think we should stop sayingloyal because it shouldn't be a
loyalty, and I remember havingthis conversation and got a lot
(15:44):
of pushback in leadership.
I said, like you know, and Iwas called.
I was like Patricia, you aren'tloyal to this company.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I said no, I'm gonna talk about.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I said I am a hard-working, I am committed, I
am loyal to myself and mybeliefs, or whatever.
Whoever gets me is gonna getsomeone who's gonna give a
hundred and twenty percent.
That's my character, that's mynature but, that's my loyalty
and commitment to myself.
But I don't owe a companyloyalty.
I owe them to show up and dothe best job.
(16:14):
Put a pin in that because Iwant to come back to that one.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I just want to finish one more thing, and then we'll
go in that direction.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I'm putting a pin in it.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Put a pin in that one Back to you In my world and we
consult in restaurant business.
I try to get our clients to getaway from the loyalty word and
use the word recognition.
Recognize that your people,that your customers, are unique,
and if you treat them as uniquepeople, they will become fans,
they will become fanatical.
You know what fan means, right?
(16:40):
So if you treat somebodydifferently, they will pay more,
they will go further, they willcross the street, they will
make changes in their plansbecause they are now loyal to
you.
A loyalty program does not makeyou loyal.
A recognition program does.
So let's go back to what youwere talking about, which is how
(17:04):
you define loyalty.
When you work for a company andall companies will say to your
point you're not loyal, you'renot a loyal employee.
So go ahead and start.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
and then I want to know what I was saying because
we were having it.
It's the word you know and andpeople say things naturally
because it feels good and that'sjust not in my dna.
If it's not truthful, I'm notsaying it.
It's not truthful meaning.
Let's let's look at thedefinition, even in loyalty, in
order for you to say you areloyal to something, even in a
(17:32):
definition.
I don't have the exact answerin front of me.
Part of that is you will giveand commit and do, even when you
know it's not reciprocated,right?
So that's what loyalty in adefinition is.
So tell me you're loyal to acompany that decide one day you
work 40 hours that they're notgoing to pay.
You are you going?
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Let's be honest, so I started down the same road that
you did, ironically enough andthe first thing I said how would
you define loyalty?
So do we define loyalty bytenure, right?
If you stay with a company for30 years, are you loyal to them,
you know?
Or are you just so lazy youdidn't want to go find another
job?
Or do you realize that you'recoasting and nobody else will
(18:12):
pay you for it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I said that this was.
There was someone that workedfor me and I said to this person
this person was you could setyour clock by this person.
They came in, you could setyour clock this person.
They came in, you could set theplot your clock that they were
gonna leave late and it was anhourly person and they were
gonna come in and they weregonna leave late and they were
(18:35):
committed to timing.
But I said to that person andthey wanted to be rewarded as
such, because I'm loyal, that'swhat that person pretty much
said to me.
I was like being loyal to thechair that you sit your behind
in I didn't use those exactwords and actually coming in and
looking out and doing your bestand helping your team out.
(18:55):
There's rules to this loyaltything, but a lot of people think
because of tenure and I noticedwhere you go, like how dare you
?
Let me go and I've been withyou.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
30 companies in general.
I mean, we hand out goldwatches for somebody's been
there for 30, 40 years and thepresumption is you've been loyal
to the company.
So my theory that I went atwhen I started this is I think
we're gonna find that people areless loyal today than they were
before if we use the definitionof loyal being tenure.
So, I said, I just Googlized andsaid, you know, are people's
(19:29):
tenures going down as the yearsgo on.
So my dad worked for IBM for agazillion years.
You know are tenures as a wholegoing down, and this is what I
found.
According to the EmployeeBenefit Research Institute, or
the EBRI, for those you like toname drop, over the past 40 or
nearly 40 years, the mediumtenure of all waged and salary
(19:50):
employees aged 25 years or olderhas.
Has it gone up, gone down orremained about the same?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
One more time.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Over the past 40 or so years, the medium tenure of
all wage and salary employeesover 25 years old has it gotten
longer, has it gotten shorter?
Has it stayed about?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
the same, it stayed about the same it has stayed
about the same.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
It has stayed about the same in about five years.
So whether you go back 40 yearsago or now, people are staying,
on average, about five years.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I kept digging because I saw different data
points too, and I have some too.
I have a problem with that dataand I and I have a problem with
the data because data can bemanipulated, that's just.
I'm gonna go to put that on mytombstone.
Um, it can't, because I find ithard to believe, because we all
know people that senior andmajority of those people stay
with the same company.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I guess for every one of those there's somebody who
stays for a year, becauseliterally it says that the
median tenure has stayed aboutthe same.
Now what's interesting hashappened is that the overall
trend masks a small butsignificant decrease in tenure
among men, but an offsettingincrease in tenure among women,
(20:58):
and I have some data here too,but this is one this is my own
data point that I'm going tocreate and throw out there.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I have no facts to support what I'm about to say.
I'm just going to throw out ahypothetical.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So you're just spitballing.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, I'm not going to put a number, but I'm just
saying the reason why I strugglewith this.
I'm making a point because weknow factually, for forever I
would even besides IT, ventureto say the last 20 years,
outside of IT American workersworked locally in their
(21:31):
community.
They just did so.
Whatever the big plant was.
Whatever it was, that planttypically fed most of the town.
Through a historical lens,that's how America work has been
and small towns and small townsfor the most part.
But my point being and it wasn'tuntil even remote work started
(21:55):
in IT over 20 years ago.
But when remote work started itstarted changing the landscape
so people didn't have to commit.
But it's hard when you're insmall towns or even, you know,
sometimes even big cities.
You don't have the luxury,where it's far sometimes to get
around.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I don't know, I just struggle with that.
I don't buy that and thenumbers don't bear out what
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Right, if you say so.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I know that's what it is, so that to me was shocking
too because I expected that thetenure 20, 30 years ago would
have been 10 years and now it'sfive years and we would have
seen this decline.
And that's not what the numberssay.
But what is interesting, is thatmen's tenure is getting shorter
, so it's clear that men arelooking to move faster and women
are staying longer, which tellsme or at least my conclusion is
(22:41):
they covet security and justthe comfort of being in the job
rather than chasing somethingelse, and that probably speaks
more to the nature of men versuswomen, but that shocked me.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It really did.
But I find it fascinating too,because I have the data too on,
you know, retention andcompanies spend so much money to
retain because they know they.
It's like the the old saying.
The song goes it's cheaper tokeep her, you know they it ain't
, but that's okay, but it is.
That's why that's why corporatecorporations rather and they
(23:15):
know this it's it's retention.
So 20% of HR managersprioritize employees' retention
as their top concern.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't believe that for a second.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I believe it, I know it because that's what I've
experienced in every corporationI have.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You think they spend more money trying to retain
people than hire people?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
No, no, to retain them and not to lose them.
No Meaning, I don't believethat for a second.
I mean, look at how much if youtalk and this is a good thing
to do.
Yeah, hr, people are doingcartwheels right now.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
They won't tell you this, but if you find a company
spends more time and effort andmoney on hiring people than it
does retaining people, movealong and I think you're going
to find that a lot in companies,and sometimes just innocuously.
You can ask an hr managerwhat's your primary role here,
and if they don't tell you theirprimary role is to grow the,
(24:07):
the knowledge base and thepeople that they have, but it's
to hire and fire move along.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Well, we'll have a whole different.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm gonna get off this subject because that's a
whole another hr nightmareconversation right there.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But it says supportive culture.
Um, according to Zappa, 79% ofemployees, 79% of employees
reported they they would staylonger yeah to a job where they
feel supported, care for howoften does that?
Happen.
But the funny thing is, 79%said I would they didn't say
(24:39):
they weren't.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I am like yeah, I would say if they'd actually
walk the walk cares about meyeah, you know, we've all worked
at companies that that say youknow, we're for employee first
and all that.
And companies that really doreward their employees or make
for a healthy work environmentbenefit you see the tenure in
those organizations.
And you know, again, I work inrestaurants, you know, and I'll
(25:03):
go visit a restaurant companyand this guy's got 17 years of
tenure and this young lady has12 years of tenure and this one
has four, and then I'll go thenext day or the next week to
another one.
It's like I've been here sixweeks and I'm the longest
tenured person.
You're like, oh, okay, well,that tells me a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I just want to add this one thing, and I don't
want to have an HR back andforth, but I do have to add and
this is of course, it's a speakapp the financial implications.
The cost of replacing anemployee can be substantial,
often amounting to twice theirannual salary.
(25:39):
That translates from $25,000 to$100,000 to replace one.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
But that's common sense talking.
How many times have we seen acompany lay off 5,000 people and
two weeks later what do we see?
They're hiring.
So they haven't walked the walk.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But that's a whole other show and that's a reason
for that, even though it seems alot.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's asinine, it's unbelievable.
So I absolutely agree that theHR's primary role is to help
create if we want to use the Lword loyal employees.
So I want to share something.
Forbes magazine did aninteresting survey and they
surveyed 2,000 employees.
Actually, they didn't do thesurvey West Monroe did.
(26:27):
2,000 employees conducted aconsulting firm.
West Monroe revealed somesurprising numbers.
The survey found that 82% ofemployees felt a sense of
loyalty to their currentemployer.
82%.
That's pretty good.
Now, that's impressive.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
but there is a problem, but the key word is a
sense of loyalty.
They didn't say they were loyal.
It gets much better.
They felt.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Even though 82% felt the sense of loyalty, 59% said
they'd leave the current job fora more appealing offer.
So what the hell is loyaltyRight?
So yeah, I'm loyal to thecompany.
Oh, you got a better offer.
Slam.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Well, at least they felt a sense of it.
We want to boo you.
It's like when I put on mySpanx I feel the sense that my
stomach is flatter than it isuntil I take it off.
So it's not real.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I mean, but they just felt the sense of it.
I can't loyalty.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Hey, we know how I feel you put it on and address
it straight.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I don't have a problem with my Spanx, so I felt
a sense of curse, but then,when I took it off, it was a
life raft.
Six out of ten would be likeloyal schmoyle, See ya.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Loyal schmoyle, loyal schmoyle.
That's a Joe Biden right there.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I'm sorry, let me do my, joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
No, please, no, no, no, please.
Let's get back on it.
You know people listen to thisaudio.
They're not going to see howridiculous you're doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I like jelly beans.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Stop it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I'm sorry Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
We're back.
I'm sorry for the people that'swatching on listening on
Spotify.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I apologize, see what you miss if you don't do the
video.
Yes, right, you are disturbed.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Disturbed, no Disturbed.
Oh my God, you made me losetrain of thought, my voice is
gone.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Oh well, God shot.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Excuse me, I'm back.
Okay, you're back I just wantto do a quick.
This is from the US Chamber ofCommerce and I find tell you why
I find it funny after I read it.
A significant number ofemployees leave their position
due to dissatisfaction of pay.
A Pew Research Center studysaid that 63% of workers who
(28:30):
quit cited low pay.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Everybody.
Tell me anybody, but I promiseyou, tell me anybody who
believes they're paidappropriately.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I promise you.
I have heard this and I knowsome people just laugh when I
say this.
Most HR would say people don'tleave because of pay, they leave
because of management.
That's what HR will tellleaders in the organization and
leaders will say to HR no, Iwould defy you to find two
(28:58):
people in your organization.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
There's always one, so two people in your
organization that go.
One, so two people in yourorganizations go.
No, I'm fairly paid and mostlikely, if those people are the
case, it means they do jacknothing.
What's my favorite expression?
Well, we can't say we can't saythat one that would.
That would take our r ratingabove itself, so they don't do
anything.
I don't know of any employeethat's ever worked with me, for
(29:20):
me around me, who would say,yeah, I'm fairly, fairly
compensated.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So yes, we all leave.
Well, I will be.
I will be a liar and ahypocrite if I didn't say I I
have, and it's one of the surveyquestions and we asked and a
lot, of, a lot of people haveworked for me said you know they
are, you know.
Okay, again, just like thatsense of loyalty um a sense of
comfortability.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
We all believe we're worth more right, I think
everybody would want more money.
We all believe that we reallyour value is greater than we get
.
But we do that equation.
We say you know what?
I believe I'm worth X, but I'mwilling to work for X minus.
I don't know if we all feelthat.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I'm sure the majority do, but I have known some
people, even personally in mylife, said that they felt like
they were kind of overpaid,meaning I want to do more and
they're not giving me more to doso.
For the work that I've beengiven, I'm fairly compensated.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I've heard people say I'd like to take on more
responsibility, but I never hearthem say since I have less
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
You could pay me before no say.
They felt like they were fairlycompensated is what I said
because of they're not givingenough to stretch them.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So one of the things that came out of this article
from Forbes and also another onethat came out in March 2023 I
want to go real quick is it saidas a manager, what's your role
in terms of loyalty?
And and it said one of thethings it said was interesting
said it's your job to showloyalty to your employee.
First, show them that you'llhelp them become their best,
(30:49):
show them that they can trustyou, show them that you support
them and presumably loyalty willcome over time and typically
loyalty will be to you as theirmanager and not necessarily to
the company.
And then then the other onethey said, which is really
interesting they said you, as aleader, can only control your
loyalty to them.
You can't control their loyaltyto you.
They said we've personally seenso many managers get trapped in
(31:12):
trying to fix employee behavior.
That seems like the job of aboss, but it's not.
Your job as a leader is tofocus on what you can do to
bring the best out of people andin return, at some point
perhaps they will show loyalty,but you can't control their side
.
The other piece I wanted to hitreally quick is this article in
Forbes, march 2023, that saidEmployee loyalty isn't dead,
(31:34):
it's just changing.
And I want to read this realquick.
It says unlike some of ourolder colleagues, gen Zers are
comfortable in the rapidlychanging web of variables in the
world we live in.
Uncertainty is their naturalhabitat.
You've never known the worldany other way.
So constant change means youcan count on nothing to stay the
same.
Thus, young people today areless likely to trust the system
(31:56):
or the organization to take careof them for an indefinite
period of time.
And that means they're lesslikely, less likely to make
short-term sacrifices forpromises of long-term rewards,
because they don't think they'regoing to be around.
And then, finally, young peopletoday look at the large,
established organization andthink, and I'm sorry, don't look
at the large organization andsay I wonder where I fit in
their picture.
(32:17):
What they say is I wonder howyou fit in mine.
So loyalty is now personal.
It's like what can you do forme?
Oh, you can do that for me.
Yeah, I'll be loyal.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I'm good with that, but not.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I'm going to have to wait a year or two years, or how
many times have we heard youknow through our career, you're
too young for that advancement,or you need three more years
before you go.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Eh, that don't float anymore.
And I really want to be clearwhen I say this.
This is not to knock anyone intheir perception and the way
they see things.
I am one who willwholeheartedly say and direct
that Logistics has been good tome and I was like so you won't
have me.
I was like and I say theindustry itself, I don't give
(33:00):
even, I'll work for.
You know different companies andmy tenure has been long and
most of those companies, but Ithink logistics and I think if
you're in a medical profession,if you're in restaurant and
hospitality, whatever we are,it's been stress, there's been
strife, ups and downs, badeconomies and all of that, but
at the end of the day, these,the industry itself, is how
(33:25):
we've been able to take care andprovide our families.
And so I think for me I wouldalways say it's great to you
know, we call it bless theblesser.
So it's great to bless what youknow.
We call it bless the blesser,so it's it's great to to to
bless what has blessed you.
So I think it's good to say youknow, cause I don't want to
leave with a sour note Like thisis bad and that's bad.
I'm saying whatever, if, if youhave been fortunate to be in
(33:50):
the same industry and sometimesit's been hard people you change
jobs, you've been downsized,acquisitions bought out, let go,
all of that, get it.
But if you have been in thatsame mortgage industry, whatever
you've done, and look back atthe positive, on what you've
gained from and how, in the end,it has been a provider, it may
(34:12):
have been rough and and it hadits patches, so so I just want
to end on that positive note.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Well, what I was going to say too, and I want to
wrap the two pieces that I hadtogether.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You're going to take us higher.
You're not going to bring usdown, are you no?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I believe today's loyalty is really good, because
I think if you're loyal toyourself, then ultimately you
will be the best you can be.
Being loyal to some companythat doesn't have your best
interest in mind whether theysay they are or not is not
correct.
You don't have to be conceitedand self-serving to be loyal to
yourself.
And the last thing I wanted tosay and it wraps together the
(34:44):
loyalty that we talked aboutbefore with loyalty to a brand
and loyalty to a company andthis was again this came out of
psychology today.
Loyalty to an organization todayis kind of the loyalty you give
to a customer.
An organization gets exactly asmuch loyalty as they are
willing to pay for, and it lastsas long as they keep paying.
The real question for employeesnow is what kind of payment is
(35:07):
valuable enough for me to remainloyal to your organization?
So remain loyal to yourself.
In this particular case,loyalty to a company, I believe
is a mirage, and I believe thatit may have existed at one point
in time, and it's now loyaltyto ourselves and we bet on
ourselves every day.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And while you were talking, this came to me because
it's like I can hear peopletalking, that's watching this
and saying what's wrong withbeing loyal?
What's wrong with being loyal?
If that's the word you chooseand that's what you choose to do
, then do you.
But here is something I askeveryone to consider.
The reason why it's concerningwhen you're loyal to a company
(35:48):
or corporation is loyalty goeshand in hand with personal, and
so you're making somethingthat's transactional, because
that's what our pay is, that'swhat our work.
It's transactional.
You're making it personal.
So when we make it personal, ithurts all the more.
It's harder to heal.
You know, it's like I've beenloyal, I've been faithful and
(36:10):
you did this to me and it's notpersonal, even though it's
happening to us.
Corporations do whatcorporations are going to do,
and they're always going to dowhat's in their best interest.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
The other thing is you can still be loyal and leave
a company.
You see, there seems to be afallacy where people say, of all
the things I've done for youand now you leave, and where's
your loyalty?
They're not the same thing.
So if you're out there saying,do I leave this company, I have
(36:41):
a great opportunity, but thiscompany's been so great, Loyalty
is not defined by whether youleave a company or not.
You could be loyal to the dayyou leave and after that you're
loyal to yourself and a companyshould understand that and in a
company that's mature andprofessional might say wow, Tree
had a great opportunity.
We understand why she left andwe hope one day she'll come back
because she was a greatemployee and we loved having her
here and the door is alwaysopen.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Now, how dare they leave me Right?
And on that end, I'll leavewith these amazing words to
thyself be true, no paycheck ortitle will ever sit at your
bedside in your final moments,but your family, your
relationships and the memoriesyou've created with them.
That's your legacy.
(37:23):
If you feel stuck because youthink I can't afford to leave,
ask yourself can you afford tolose more time?
Time is the ultimate investment.
Spend it wisely.
Your perch isn't just a placeto sit.
It's a place to arrive aboveand to gain perspective.
(37:46):
Take the time to evaluate whereyour loyalty is leading you and
whether it's worth the cost.
Until next time, honor yourtime and this the most valuable
thing you'll ever own Until wemeet again.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
We'll talk again soon .
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Be well, see you guys in Perch, thank you.
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