September 11, 2020 • 56 mins
Let us know what you think about the podcast!
Words can be fun. In fact, some of us use them everyday! In this episode we interview photography copywriter extraordinaire Kimberley Anderson. A veteran of the grueling wedding photography wars, Kimberley pivoted pre-Covid to focus on her other passion: crafting the right words for photographers. In this episode you will learn what should be in your bio (and what should NOT be -- I'm looking at you, coffee and yoga), and what common mistakes most photographers make when they attempt to write more gooder. Along the way you'll learn the secret to making a Russian Margarita, how to make a bride's shadow look fat, and why Kimberley won't pay for your gelato bar.
You can learn more about Kimberley Anderson at www.redcurlcreative.com. You can also join her Facebook group "Write Better Words" at https://www.facebook.com/groups/writebetterwords.
Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play". And don't forget to subscribe!
Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com
Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com
Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner. Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Mowbray (00:06):
Recorded live from the liquor department at
Piggly Wiggly. It's the photohappy hour podcast.
Hey, and welcome everybody comeon in and grab a seat. I'm your
photo happy hour. bartenderMichael Mowbray and I'm pouring
two for one shots of photographyknow how today. Joining me
(00:29):
behind the bar are Dan Frievaltand Carl Caylor. Say Hey, guys.
Dan Frievalt (00:32):
Hey guys, what's up, everyone?
Michael Mowbray (00:33):
So what do you guys drinking? What's on your
happy hour agenda?
Dan Frievalt (00:38):
I have whiskey, a whiskey. Well, I was gonna I did
pour a red wine but it went holdwent went bad on me. It's like
vinegar. So I had to switch toChardonnay, so I would be here
on time.
Michael Mowbray (00:53):
That's got enough sugar. That'll last for a
while too.
Dan Frievalt (00:56):
Yes.
Michael Mowbray (00:57):
Yeah. The Tennessee whiskey girl.
Carl Caylor (01:00):
I do. Tennessee whiskey.
Michael Mowbray (01:03):
The watermelon.
Nice. Sour. No balls are what Icouldn't. This is the Sour Patch
Kid whiskey.
Carl Caylor (01:14):
Yeah, that's the one.
Michael Mowbray (01:17):
Anyway. Wow, we're just like rolling right
along today, aren't we?
Carl Caylor (01:24):
Well, let's drink and we got an unreleased drink.
Michael Mowbray (01:26):
Well, I got to introduce her. Nobody knows
she's here yet. So anyway. Hey,right. I
Carl Caylor (01:30):
don't I won't spill the beans and I'm sorry.
Michael Mowbray (01:33):
Okay. Hang on.
I gotta pull up her bio here.
But I'm gonna I'm going to doyou know?
Dan Frievalt (01:41):
Was that stuff?
Boy, this is fine. fine tuned.
Here we go. Like the firstrecord. I didn't have like a
well oiled machine.
Kimberley (01:50):
I'm feeling right at home right now.
Michael Mowbray (01:52):
Yeah, well, I blame you because you threw us
all off. Okay, well, we'll editall this out, obviously.
Carl Caylor (01:57):
No, leave it just leave it. This is good stuff.
Michael Mowbray (02:02):
All right, if you're joining us for the first
time or the 22nd time, thepremise of this podcast is we
are three professionalphotographers who have been
around for a while, and we mightknow a thing or two. And the
important thing is we drink andthe more we drink, the more we
know. So and every week we havea topic, except for the weeks
(02:23):
where we don't. And this is aweek where we don't we've
actually got a guest. We have aninterview. Yes, yes. And who is
our interview? This is Yeah,she's interviewing for a job
this we're representing thestate of Wisconsin and you're on
you're applying forunemployment.
Kimberley (02:46):
No.
Hear me throw now triggered youtriggered already trigger me a
bride DWT.
Michael Mowbray (03:00):
Today, our guest is Kimberly Anderson. She
is she's been a photographer formany, many years, cut her teeth
in the wedding industry startingas a waitress at the age of 16.
at weddings at a country club,and I'm assuming over in the
Milwaukee area. So you've doneall kinds of things. You've
photographed all kinds ofthings, but a few years back you
(03:20):
said screw that and you shiftedand now you're into like the
word side you're tapping backinto your your Stephen UW
Stevens Point roots in was anEnglish degree. Is that
Kimberley (03:36):
good? Yeah, I actually got a degree in English
that I never used until now. Mymother's super proud. Well,
Nobody. Nobody ever uses theirEnglish. Seriously. Sure.
Dan Frievalt (03:46):
Especially in Wisconsin there.
Kimberley (03:49):
Don't need it, don't you? No. No. So tell
Michael Mowbray (03:58):
us a little bit about about this transition into
wording why wire wire words?
What Why? Why do words beimportant?
Unknown (04:06):
Why do why words. So so you know, I was I was a
photographer for 20 years, I wasa wedding photographer
primarily. And yeah, and one dayI just didn't want to be
anymore. And I did. You know,and I was like, okay, so yeah,
what next? Like, what do I do?
And one of my friends was like,well, you're always the person
(04:26):
that people go to when they wantto know how to say things like
what they want to answer anangry email, or they want to
know how to word, you know, wordsomething on their pricing. And
I was like, Oh, yeah, people dodo that. Will they pay me for
that? And she's like, Oh, no.
And I was like, Well, let metry. And so I just started
Googling. And I'm like, Oh, sonow I'm a copywriter. And I
(04:48):
literally went on Facebook andI'm like, So hey, I'm a
copywriter now. And that'sreally how I did it. I had set a
goal for myself to transitionout of photography within 18
months, because I had weddings Ihad to finish up. So in 2014, I
decided in 2016, I was done withweddings, and I just stopped
taking them and told people Iwas something else and started
(05:11):
writing things.
Michael Mowbray (05:13):
Isn't that amazing how you can do that?
Now?
Unknown (05:15):
You can. And you can do it, especially now with, you
know, with COVID and everything.
Now, some, some people may needto do that. And, you know, have
you asked me a year ago, if thatwas the smartest move I've ever
made? I probably would have toldyou no, because I didn't really
have a backup plan. But now, youknow, nobody needs a backup
plan. backup plans are just noteven a thing anymore. So
Michael Mowbray (05:38):
Well, sometimes in business, that it's good to
not have a backup plan becausethat puts more emphasis on
making whatever your primarything is you're doing. You have
to make it work, right.
Unknown (05:50):
Yeah. I mean, I didn't have to learn things just
because I knew how to writedidn't mean that I knew how to
do persuasive sales, copy andinbound marketing and things
like that. So I did I didactually take a bunch of classes
and courses and masterclassesand stuff so that I could learn
that because just because youknow how to string a few words
together doesn't mean it sellsthings for people.
Michael Mowbray (06:11):
Well, I can string a lot of good swear words
together, but
Unknown (06:15):
I can I can attest to that. You're real good.
Especially.
Dan Frievalt (06:19):
Especially when you like stub your toe.
Michael Mowbray (06:22):
Oh, yeah.
Carl Caylor (06:23):
It's when you step on the Legos. That's what does
it good. Now?
Dan Frievalt (06:28):
I don't have kids.
I don't have Legos. So I justhave beds that jump on me out of
nowhere.
Carl Caylor (06:34):
Legos for your dog dog adventure. Love it.
Dan Frievalt (06:37):
Well, yeah, I have stepped on his like toys and
then said similar to a Lego likethat's like,
Unknown (06:44):
son of
Carl Caylor (06:47):
a stream together in a grammatical fashion. Hey, I
have a question for ya. This isthis is really kind of more
curiosity than anything. Butwhen you had said that, you just
at one point said, I'm not gonnado weddings anymore. Did you say
it during a wedding? Oh, yeah,of course. Oh.
Unknown (07:07):
Well, actually, I'm probably not. And Michael
Michael knows the in depthversion of the story. But
basically, I had a bride whotried to sue me because she was
nine months pregnant at the timeof her wedding, and there were
all sorts of terrible thingsthat happened before her
wedding. Her wedding just didnot go like she wanted it to at
(07:28):
all. And the third time was thecharm for the wedding. And it
was in February during when wehad one of those minus 40 degree
days. And half of the peopledidn't show up to her wedding
because family drama, and thebig line that she said to me is
that I used a wide lens to makeeveryone look to make it look
(07:49):
like there was no one at herwedding. And then I managed to
even make her shadow look fat.
So she became shadow, thatshadow that shadow kind of
pushed me over the edge. I was Iwas thinking about it. And when
that happened, I was like, andI'm out, you know? And it was
also it was also you know, Imean, being photographer, you
(08:11):
guys know this. It's a superphysical job, you know? And
yeah, my knees were going and Iwas starting to be the same age
as my as my clients mom's youknow, I you know, I remember
walking into a wedding. And thiswoman's like, you look so
familiar. And I was like, you donot look familiar at all. And we
came to find out that we are wegraduated from high school The
(08:31):
same year, and I only had 93people in my class. And I was
like, if I look like that, thenI got it. I gotta go. So it
wasn't just that it just was aculmination of things. And it
was, you know, knowing thatsince really, I mostly did
weddings, I was like 95%weddings. So I just was like, I
(08:51):
do not want to be 60 years oldand chasing these these girls in
these white dresses around likeI needed an exit plan.
Michael Mowbray (09:00):
Most brides be crazy.
Dan Frievalt (09:03):
Speaking of, can we address Karl's incident after
our podcast last week when wetalked about Oh, no injuries and
being in shape for weddings andthings like that? And yeah, how
many days later? Was it carnal?
And this isn't the curry?
Carl Caylor (09:20):
Yeah, how ironic was that? Hey, you know, most
people that know me have havehad class with me know that. I'm
a big advocate of the 7200millimeter lens. And because it
narrows things down Of course,there you can find little nooks
and crannies. However, everyonce in a while there's a time
(09:40):
and a place for a wide anglelens. And I thought, because
there was this great big stormbrewing around us that the sky
looked really cool and thissoccer player kicking the ball
the more thunderous and andothers
Kimberley (09:55):
around the thigh here are
Carl Caylor (09:58):
no there was thunderous clouds. Going around
to show that part of the story.
It was magnificent. However,that means he wanted he wanted
to be kicking the soccer ball.
And to get him to kind of fill aframe. I was only maybe eight or
nine feet from him. And when hehaul up and kicked it, he might
(10:20):
have slipped off his foot alittle bit and square ups nailed
the the camera right in thelampshade on my 24 to 70. And
pretty much embedded the camerain the into my forehead.
Michael Mowbray (10:35):
Give you a black guy.
Carl Caylor (10:37):
I bled all over there all over their soccer
field. But we got some prettyamazing say did you get the shot
though? Right. And we did twomore outfits after that.
Michael Mowbray (10:54):
There was like, literally the our next podcast
episode that's posting that.
Well, this is after that's whenthey'll be able to hear this.
Well anyway. Go back and listento the podcast before this.
Because it's all about
Carl Caylor (11:07):
to add one thing to that story. And I felt so bad.
Maybe the poor kid. I mean, hefelt like he felt so bad about
it. And he kept going oh my god.
So I'm like I told you to kickthe ball. The next day,
Saturday, this is this happenedon Friday, Saturday. He he was
in Green Bay shopping. Mydaughter and my wife were in
Green Bay shopping. They happento run into each other places
(11:28):
are 100 miles away from here,run into each other and my
daughter knew him from school.
You're behind her in school.
He's like, see, you look whatyou did to my dad. And he was
just like, oh my god, I'm sosorry. He's fine. Don't worry
about it takes more than thatshop is no joke.
Dan Frievalt (11:47):
No. So they casually casually ran into each
other or like they rewrite No.
Yeah, correct. Okay, about theshopping mall. Oh, that's good.
Okay, right over there. If theygot an accident, then it'd be
like that really be ironic.
Unknown (12:03):
would be? Yes.
Carl Caylor (12:07):
So I got a follow up question. Kimberly. If I
actually looked at your at yourwebsite today, which is pretty
cool. By the way, Carl cameprepared today. I don't I did.
So I just just so you just wantto know if I find if I found a
typo. Should I tell you about ornot? Yeah, I'm kidding. I'm
kidding.
Unknown (12:27):
I'm the first to admit, I'm first of all, like, I do
typos every once in a while, youknow, because I even say that in
one of my things. It's like, ifI get something new for you will
be completely grammaticallycorrect and free of typos. And
I'm like, No, cuz I'm a humanbeing. You know.
Michael Mowbray (12:45):
We once we once ran an ad when I worked at the
ad agency, we were looking for aproofreader. And we purposely,
we, first of all, the title ofthe ad was proofreader. The ad
we told we asked people to findall the mistakes and correct
them. Admit it back. Yeah. So inthe in the Wisconsin State
(13:08):
Journal looking for aproofreader.
Dan Frievalt (13:14):
I can wrote that ad for you.
Michael Mowbray (13:18):
easily without even thinking, because it's
really important in especiallyin advertising, because you
don't want to misspell publicrelations as we've done before,
too. And leave the Yeah, yeah,yeah, you get weird applications
for that. Anyway. Um, what is,in your opinion? What is the
(13:42):
major or the biggest mistakethat most photographers make
when it comes to using language?
Dan Frievalt (13:48):
Ah, you took my question?
Unknown (13:50):
Oh, when using Legos.
So when writing things copy,that's your speaking, you know,
right. Okay. Yeah. I thinkprobably the biggest thing for
them is they have this real hangup on being salesy. You know,
that's really hard for them. Andit is for most people, but I
think it's even harder forcreatives, because it's so
personal. And they want peopleto hire them and like them
(14:12):
because of the work that theydo. And my job is to shatter
those dreams, and tell themthat, you know, part of your job
is sales, whether or not you'redoing it an in person sales
session, or on your website,part of your job is to ask
people to let you work withthem. And you know, and then and
then you've got SEO in the mix.
(14:34):
So there's all these differentelements to it. And they tend to
really want to take out all theparts where they're appealing to
people to work with them. Andthat's something that you know,
eventually they get there andsometimes it just as changing
the tone of the language fromsomething a little less moral to
something a little more casual.
Sometimes that works. But thatis that is probably the one
(14:55):
thing I bought up against themost
Michael Mowbray (14:59):
and you Using the passive voice,
Unknown (15:02):
and I am fine with the passive voice. I don't know why
that's a role. Fine. I havenothing disabled on grammerly.
I'm like, stop it with thepassive voice, you know?
Michael Mowbray (15:16):
What about Oxford commas? I mean, we here's
your answer to this is whetheror not we can stay friends. Are
you for? Or are you again? TheOxford comma?
Unknown (15:30):
I know.
Kimberley (15:31):
I am for
Unknown (15:36):
you and I are the same age. That's because we're
Dan Frievalt (15:38):
dinosaurs. I'm not sure what that means. I did
about what about the doublespace after a period?
Unknown (15:45):
Oh, no happened that, you know, literally, I have
every document I write I have acommand to go and look for that.
Because I cannot. I can't, Ican't. I can't quit it. I can't.
And so now I'm just it's justbecome part of my process that I
just go through and take it out.
Because I literally had aneditor say to me, I will fire
yousubmit one more document with
(16:06):
double spacing. Andso yeah, it's
Michael Mowbray (16:12):
back to that do expect the college where you had
to fill like four pages on anessay is like, oh, double. Yeah,
after the
Unknown (16:22):
word processor. Yeah, I mean, with typewriter, you had
to double space. So yeah, yeah,he tried to beat 40 years out of
me here. So, you know, but yeah,it's it every time I bring it
up. It's so funny to see peopleargue about it on Facebook or
whatever. And it's always, it'salways like, if you're over 50
you definitely like the doublespace. You know,
Michael Mowbray (16:45):
I've managed to train myself to not do it. So I
don't do it anymore. justmagically happen. See?
Carl Caylor (16:51):
No, but here's the thing. Here's the problem with
that. If you are like if you hitdouble tap, tap your space
space, it puts the period therefor you. If you don't tap tap,
it doesn't so which way is it?
You know, make it one way or theother. But don't make our phones
work. Tap Tap? Yeah, give me aperiod.
Unknown (17:12):
See, I know I don't worry about anything on a phone.
That's that's fine, anyhow. No,no. I used to be really
particular about thatcapitalizing everything. And
then finally one day I was like,You just lost your damn mind.
You need to just leave let thatgo. You know, life's too short.
Michael Mowbray (17:31):
I still punctuate all my texts. I'm
sorry.
Dan Frievalt (17:38):
I mean, I don't know it's either that or just
straight gifts. You know, one orthe other. Like, I see.
Michael Mowbray (17:44):
I fit I think I'm, I'm turning Egyptian. I
speak only an hiral hieroglyphs.
Carl Caylor (17:51):
hieroglyphics.
Unknown (17:53):
You are your gifts, you are gifted, you're gifted at the
gift you give to that the gift.
Carl Caylor (17:59):
He's quick. He's very quick. He's quick on the
draw with gifts.
Dan Frievalt (18:04):
So along the tangent of taboo or questions or
hit you up with things that youfeel are right to wrong, or
maybe not right or wrong. Butokay, let's talk about BIOS. And
oh, yeah, like your, yourthoughts on especially
photographer buyers buyersbecause we're in the
photographer. space. So yeah, Isaw you post something on this
(18:28):
recently. And so that's whatkind of triggered this question,
I guess.
Unknown (18:32):
Is it the one where I said that if I was an alien and
came down to the planet Earthand read 50 photographers
websites and didn't know what aphotographer was, all I would be
able to tell you is that theylove light and coffee and yoga.
Yes.
Dan Frievalt (18:46):
It wasn't done in depth. I like this better. But
yeah, yeah, please stop with thecoffee and yoga or something
along those Yeah. wide open.
Unknown (18:55):
Yeah. And, and and do you love photography? Since you
picked up a camera at age, youknow, insert 612 nine, whatever.
Yeah, and you know, and it'sthat that is mostly just because
I mean, BIOS are really hard.
They are. And it's even worsewhen you're writing about
yourself. Of all the things thatI write BIOS are the hardest,
because even so now they have tobe shorter than they ever were.
(19:18):
They have to be relatable. Andwe all when we don't know what
to say go to Whatever's easiest.
And whatever is true, right? Imean, I believe all those
photographers do love light andcoffee and yoga. But the problem
is, so does every otherphotographer in the state of
Wisconsin. So if someone'scoming into your website, and
(19:39):
they're reading these BIOS, andthey all sound the same, well,
who are you going to pick? Imean, I would pick the person
who sounded most interesting,because in a sea of
photographers, unless you'reunless you're really crappy
photographer, they are going tosee you know, a different work
but it's all going to be aboutthe same if they're looking in a
certain price range. One wouldhope
Kimberley (20:02):
the quality of photographs and looking
Unknown (20:04):
at are about the same, right, you know?
So that's the thing then thenwhat's the qualifier? You know,
what's the qualifier? What Whatelse are they going to look for?
They're gonna look for someonewho sounds like, they're cool to
hang out with, right, but theyhave common interests and
photographers also tend to startat the beginning of the story.
Like, you know, like, you know,in my bio, I talk a little bit
(20:25):
about how I grew up. I literallygrew up in weddings. I started
out as a waitress in a countryclub, you know, at weddings. And
I go on from there, but soundslike a country club.
Kimberley (20:55):
sassy, sassy chicken.
Always.
Carl Caylor (20:58):
Yeah. I was trying to think of the saucy chicken I
will always get deep friedstuff.
Unknown (21:03):
Yeah, I gotta get
Kimberley (21:05):
roasted.
Michael Mowbray (21:09):
In pictures of milk on the table, too.
Unknown (21:12):
Yeah, down here, down here at the Milwaukee we get the
saucy chicken and beef tipssaying Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah,
I mean, it's just, it's a matterof, you know, finding the right
balance and saying, telling methings that are interesting
about you that don't sound likeeverybody else. And that that is
hard. Because you do havesimilar likes and dislikes. But
(21:33):
you have to look at it from kindof like a client's point of
view, and about you, is aboutyou. But it's more about the
relationship of working with theclient, like what they're going
to get when they work with you.
So it's kind of a delicatebalance between that and
revealing yourself to being aninteresting human being. Right,
well, so
Carl Caylor (21:51):
Kimberly, how do I how do you do that? When you
don't really know? I mean, howdo you write a bio for somebody
else? And what questions do youask them to get you started? I
mean, what do I have to give?
Unknown (22:04):
So it starts with a discovery form. And I have a
bunch of questions on there thatI asked, just to kind of
uncover, you know, what yourlike, what you what you like,
what you what you don't like,who you like working with, who
you don't like working with. AndI have clients fill that out. If
they don't fill it out, whereit's pretty meaty, I will send
(22:24):
it back and be like, try harder,you know, I mean, I need more
information. And then we have,we actually have a zoom call.
And it usually takes about 45minutes to an hour, where I dig
into their questions, ask themmore questions, get them to talk
about themselves a little bitmore. In between the discovery
call and the zoom call, I go Igo deep, I go searching through
(22:46):
their profiles. I read all thecomments people say, I go into,
you know, any little tiny bit ofinformation I can mine on them
on the internet, I find outbecause I can weave that into
the questions. Sometimes theythey realize I do it. Most of
the time they don't. And theyjust start answering my
question. Reviews are superrevealing to me. So if they're
(23:10):
if they're one of the few peoplewho actually asked for reviews,
and has testimonials, I can geta really good idea of how they
work and ask them more questionsabout that. And then we talk a
little bit about the tone, youknow, how formal Do you want it
to be? How irreverent Do youwant it to be like who are your
clients, if you're working withthe Country Club, set, your bio
(23:34):
is going to sound very differentif you're, you know, wimzie in
light doing outdoor barnweddings, so we have to be sure
that it matches that and a lotof people get very hung up on
that as well. Like they reallythey you know, I'll read their
I'll read their bio, and I'll belike, this is not at all like
what you do. Well, and theythink well, and or they'll write
(23:54):
it in, you know, they will writeit in the first person. Like,
you know, the Michael Mowbray isan award winning, you know, and
I'm like, Where did that comefrom? Like, why are you this is
not LinkedIn. So why are youwriting like that?
You just like the award winningthing?
(24:16):
Yes, actually.
Kimberley (24:26):
Any minute now.
Michael Mowbray (24:29):
I don't even know where it is right now.
Dan Frievalt (24:32):
Here's my award.
Michael Mowbray (24:37):
Girl you'll like this. I got like my fujis
and my codecs over here. You cansee they're off camera. They're
holding up my my Sonics phone.
Carl Caylor (24:49):
Yeah. Hey, wait a minute. I just occurred to me.
Wait, we don't know what you'redrinking. Kimberly. What are you
drinking?
Unknown (24:55):
Oh, I have right here.
I have a Russian Margarita. Oh,this would be awesome. A child
of the 70s. So this would be avodka fresca, because that's
what. It's a Russian Margarita.
Carl Caylor (25:05):
That's Russian.
Unknown (25:08):
That's what my mother calls it. Oh, at least it's at
least it's Tito's, though. Soit's Hi.
Michael Mowbray (25:15):
Nice. Actually, I I didn't say what I'm having.
I'm having some aberfeldiescotch. It's a 12 year old
Island single malt Scotch. Huh.
First off, that is pretty good.
Huh? doesn't suck on our localliquor store. We got we got a
new one like last year and bigone. And they have I swear, it's
(25:37):
probably 50 different types ofscotch in there. Usually you go
into a liquor store andWisconsin is like they got
Johnnie Walker red JohnnieWalker black, maybe Glenfiddich.
These guys had like, mindblowing,
Unknown (25:53):
well, then I didn't even need to go to Scotland to
get you that that was no, thatwas lovely. I appreciated
Michael Mowbray (25:58):
that. But yeah, I went the other day and walked
out. $400 later. Oops.
Carl Caylor (26:06):
I made a nice photograph, though. I just gotta
say,
Michael Mowbray (26:09):
I got some wine too.
Dan Frievalt (26:12):
Is that why I got an email about the MoLight?
sale?
Unknown (26:20):
You need to sell some flashes.
Dan Frievalt (26:25):
I need to pay my liquor bill.
Michael Mowbray (26:31):
Amex is I plan to photograph all those bottles?
So there you go.
Carl Caylor (26:36):
lead in that's a good lead into my next question,
actually, is when, when we asphotographers are going to do a
sale? What? What? What kind ofwork? I mean, what, what do you
do for that? I mean, you dowrite things for a sale?
Unknown (26:52):
Sure. Usually, that's an email series, one email is
not going to get you much. It'salso going to depend on how warm
your list is, if you haven'tbeen emailing your lists
consistently. Your open rateisn't going to be as good is if
you've been consistently sendinggood
Dan Frievalt (27:10):
backup backup we have to talk to about people
actually starting a list and
Kimberley (27:20):
they forget, like professionals.
Carl Caylor (27:23):
What's that? Why, why?
Dan Frievalt (27:26):
What what we should explain what a list is
first, before we get carriedaway. I do
Carl Caylor (27:31):
have a check off.
So I know what I did for
Kimberley (27:33):
Yeah.
Michael Mowbray (27:35):
I've got I've got a list, but I put people on
it.
Unknown (27:41):
And you don't worry, be honest. Yes. You don't get the
poop emoji list.
Carl Caylor (27:46):
No, it's it. It is a different letter. Yeah,
Dan Frievalt (27:49):
no, it's called the rose the rose list. That's
what success word calls it. Youyou label clients that are kind
of troublesome though you givehim a rose label? Because it
sounds nice. But it's the thornin your side? Oh,
Unknown (28:09):
God. Yeah. So we have a good, I mean, you're right
there. Yeah, there you guys havelists. But you know, other
photographers may not havelists, they may have more like
client lists, where you guys domore of education part. So, you
know, it would depend on whoexactly you're writing to. But
usually one email shot off intothe ether is not gonna not gonna
get you a whole lot. You have tohave a relationship with the
(28:31):
people you're emailing, you haveto give them good content, you
have to have given themsomething for free, because
hashtag photographers, and thenyou have to appeal to just to
sell to them, you have to have,you know, it's it's a reciprocal
relationship. It's the givingback. It's the 80% giving in the
20% selling that they that Ialways advise. It's the same
(28:53):
when you're writing a salesemail, and not putting the word
sale in the subject line,because that'll get you flagged
for spam. And people will click
Michael Mowbray (29:01):
right off unless you're trying to sell
flashes to pay for your scotchbill.
Unknown (29:08):
Now, if you put that in the subject line, Daddy needs a
daddy needs this guy. I think Iwould want to see you. I want to
see you AB test that
Carl Caylor (29:19):
tension. I swear.
Michael Mowbray (29:22):
I've got something coming up in about two
weeks. I may be testing, okay.
And by the way, people who don'tunderstand what a B testing is,
by the way, make notes when youlisten to our podcasts and go
look it up. Because we ain'tyour damn Google. Anyway.
Carl Caylor (29:38):
Write that down.
Michael Mowbray (29:40):
AV testing is you you create one headline and
a second alternative headline,and you send it to each one to
half of your list and see whichone pulls better. And you'll
learn about the behavior habitsof your list and how you need to
tailor copy that sells to them.
There you go.
Unknown (29:59):
Exactly. Just
Dan Frievalt (30:00):
like science man, Mr. Moe, but you can also do
with Facebook ads as well have abe testing them, like graphics,
creative wording works best. Andyeah, there's a lot that goes
into it. And, you know, wetalked a while back about
outsourcing and I am not goodwith my words, if you've
listened to this podcast morethan 15 minutes, you will know
(30:22):
that we haven't hit a word yetalways correcting me or helping
me with my words. And so Iactually hired Kimberly a few
times to write things for mebecause it is not my strong
point. So I always say hire foryour weaknesses. And it is a
great experience. And oh, Carl,you asked earlier like, Well,
you know, what, how does thatwork? And it is great working
(30:45):
with Kimberly, where you we dida zoom call, or it's like,
here's kind of what I'mthinking. And if you know me as
a creative person, the mostcreative people, it's like,
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,like, ideas are firing, and
things are firing all over. Soit's like, okay, wrangle this
in. And so it's not only justwording, it's like wrangling and
get your message clear. Becausesomeone else reading this, it
(31:07):
knows nothing about you needs aclear message, you know, with
words, but also with themessage. So, yeah, highly
recommend, if you
Unknown (31:16):
that is hard, it's it.
It's hard. It's really hard totake your own thoughts. And I
mean, it's so much nicer whensomeone else does that for you.
Carl Caylor (31:24):
Well, it's nice that you've been in the
industry, too. I mean, that's, Imean, especially by for
photography. That's huge. Yeah.
I mean, I've worked with othermarketing people that they don't
have a clue what we do, and it'sa struggle.
Michael Mowbray (31:38):
Yeah, they don't.
Unknown (31:40):
Yeah, and I was taking a little bit of a risk when I
did that, because I thought, whoI'm really niching down, you
know, but I that was quicklyameliorated. When I, when I
first started, I pretty muchwould write for anybody, you
know, and I ended up readingblogs about mold. And I had to
write 16 blogs a month aboutmold, and every single one of
(32:04):
them had to be different
Carl Caylor (32:05):
to the spores. Oh, sorry.
Unknown (32:14):
For and I did that for I don't know, maybe a year and a
half my gosh, because it waslike it was it wasn't that hard.
I could write them. I could bangthem out in like, 15 minutes,
you know. And finally, one day,I'm like, I just I can't write
about mold anymore. And Ithought I you know, what could
be worse?
Michael Mowbray (32:32):
Right. 70 blogs about mold. I just did the math.
Kimberley (32:35):
Yes, you are. Right.
Carl Caylor (32:38):
I'm just saying.
Unknown (32:41):
Yeah, yeah. I know a lot about mold. Yeah. Yeah.
So so that's when I decided,well, I'm just going to niche
down because I know a button andI know the industry. And then I
expanded it beyond photographersso I do have a pretty big
clientele that is also likewedding planners and a lot of
wedding planners. Some DJs acouple florists. So anything
(33:06):
that's kind of in the weddingsphere I feel comfortable with
and you know, even photographythat I didn't do a lot of like
goodwill, I think I did oneboudoir session and I went
so you know,
Michael Mowbray (33:18):
but I do it goes back on.
Dan Frievalt (33:20):
So can you Yeah, you may have answered a
different debate we've had onthis this podcast in the past
and is it niche or niche? How do
Unknown (33:35):
I say niche niche?
Dan Frievalt (33:42):
I've tried to switch to saying nice, but it's
it's, you know? It's liketeaching my grandmother it's a
unthaw, you know.
Unknown (33:56):
Thought is totally a word. I did not honestly the
first time someone challenged meon that. I was like, that's
totally a word. And then I foundout No, that's just
Carl Caylor (34:04):
like you can really get in trouble with that.
Michael Mowbray (34:09):
Yeah, come on, either fight, or doesn't flam
Kimberley (34:12):
words are
Dan Frievalt (34:17):
good stuff.
Michael Mowbray (34:18):
So I tell people where to get a
confession. Oh, go ahead. No,no, no. You go.
Carl Caylor (34:25):
My father just so you know, my dad is an English
teacher. So I grew up Ah, withthis. And it's interesting
because I can't spell where thecrap. I mean, I understand. It's
kind of beat into me over theyears. But I cannot for the life
of me spell. And so where's itlike, do with it? Cuz I can't be
(34:48):
the only one.
Unknown (34:50):
So, no, I'm not a terrifically great speller. But
Carl Caylor (34:53):
even even grammar.
How do you deal with I mean,most photographers, like you
said are creatives and yeah,there's a whole whole different
world in the English language,as far as creativity, and how
hard is it to deal with that?
That disconnect?
Unknown (35:13):
It depends, you know, I am very much a proponent of
you're not trying to win aPulitzer here, right? At least
not for your words, yet. I mean,there's a difference between
being grammatically correct. Andgetting your point across and
simple and direct wins out everytime over AP grammar. You know,
obviously, if it's horrificallybad if it's really a huge full
(35:38):
pot, no, but it's okay to usecommon words instead of fancy
words. And there's very fewphotographers who sites, I'll
look at that, I'll be like, Oh,this is just fat, you know, it
may not be particularlycreative, it may be redundant,
it may be kind of boring. Butmost people have at least a
(35:58):
concept of what to what towrite. But again, they usually
are kind of missing that call toaction. You know, they don't,
they don't follow all the waythrough, they just sort of word
vomit, and then just back awayfrom it and think, oh, I don't
want to do this anymore. Youknow, I want to do everything.
Dan Frievalt (36:19):
Well, you bring up a lot of good points, because
you know, as creatives andphotographers, we we feel like,
Oh, I want to get my websiterolling. And the first thing
that comes to mind is imagery,like I need strong imagery and
strong imagery, but following itthrough with the details of
wording and call to action andall those things will, you know,
just take it and SEO, as youmentioned, will just take it to
(36:43):
the next level. And it's onething I think we as creators,
kind of overlook, or don't putas much emphasis on?
Unknown (36:51):
Yeah, well, if Imagine you're, you know, Suzy, whoever
looking for a photographer, andyou got two sites pulled up. And
they're both greatphotographers, as far as you can
tell. And one's got pretty goodwords, and one's got great
words, the great words is goingto get is going to get the thing
if they're both kind of greatphotos and kind of crappy words.
(37:13):
Where do you think that personis going to go next? Where do
you think their minds gonnaglitter one
Michael Mowbray (37:18):
the most? Well,
Unknown (37:19):
they're gonna choose whoever is cheaper. Because they
don't, they don't see they don'tsee any difference, right? They
say good photos. They seeaverage words, right? This one's
$500. Cheaper. Ah, so I get it.
So if your words, your words,don't put your price on your
website. I see what you'resaying.
Kimberley (37:38):
That's a man.
That actually isn't too bad.
Unknown (37:46):
So what
Carl Caylor (37:47):
I got one thing again,
Michael Mowbray (37:49):
yeah, well, that's that's actually one of
the things I'm going to be doingin the kind of the offseason is
I just rebuilt my website andrelaunched it month and a half
ago or so. But it was seriouslyword vomit. I mean, a halfway
decent writer. So I was like,but I was writing it as I was
building it. So I got to go backand go through it all and go,
whoo, whoo, whoo. But yeah,that's something everybody
(38:12):
should be doing in theoffseasons go through all your
marketing communications. Yeah,go through your website, go
through everything on yourFacebook page, wherever and
refine it, and re hone it and,and make it better make it more
gooder. So it's the most, most
Unknown (38:30):
photographers are really great about updating,
updating their images, but theytend to not do it with their
word, right pricing. And youshould be doing it just about as
up because especially now, Imean, I'm sure you have
different offerings than you hadsix months ago, at least you
should, you know, we've all hadto pivot and find other things
to offer. So go back through,add things in take out what
(38:52):
doesn't apply anymore. You know,talk about being socially
distance, whatever you have todo to bring your website up to
date, otherwise, it's gonnalook,
Michael Mowbray (39:02):
that's that's a good point. Do you have for
folks who are listening? Do youhave a stated COVID-19 policy on
your website? Or how you'rehandling COVID-19?
Unknown (39:16):
I do not because I
Michael Mowbray (39:20):
for people listening. You can answer
personally cuz you're a personand you're here. So
Unknown (39:27):
I don't because I work remotely. You know, I don't ever
see people but I have written alot of statements for people and
an awful lot of blogs about itabout micro weddings, and you
know, and COVID you know, if youwant something for your
contract, then you need to go tolike a lawyer but but yeah, you
should have you absolutelyshould have like how do you if
(39:48):
you're a newborn photographer,heck yeah. I'm gonna want to
know how you
Michael Mowbray (39:51):
always wondered how they could handle the
camera. They don't even havehand eye coordination yet?
Unknown (39:56):
No, not at all. Yeah.
Kimberley (40:00):
posable you totally got me there. Wow.
Wow, I cannot believe I fell forthat happened during
Carl Caylor (40:09):
that Russian lady.
lately. We haven't had areference drink yet. Oh
Dan Frievalt (40:24):
wow, we talked about journey, I mean
Kimberley (40:28):
housing journey.
Michael Mowbray (40:33):
Alright, so what one thing we'd like to do.
It's a tradition here at thephoto happy hour. Whenever we
have a guest we play wordassociation. You're our second
guest. So I guess it is atradition now.
Kimberley (40:49):
Southern
Michael Mowbray (40:52):
with Dan McClanahan, and it was
incredible.
Dan Frievalt (40:55):
Oh, we got,
Michael Mowbray (40:57):
but I'm gonna throw words at you. Okay, and
just tell us you know, tell uswhat it means. unicorn. Okay.
Very much so. And I actually Ihave to say, I have shadow on my
list.
Kimberley (41:17):
You're gonna get me to tell that story.
Michael Mowbray (41:19):
Absolutely. I still remember that. Made my
shadow look fat. That soundslike that sounds like a mama
joke. Your mama so fat. Hershadows even fat?
Unknown (41:31):
Yeah, except she used it for her face.
Michael Mowbray (41:35):
Buddy. Okay.
Wow. You talked a lot aboutgrammar. Let's talk about
grammar.
Kimberley (41:41):
grandpere you got nothing. Is that? Is that an
issue? I don't know.
Michael Mowbray (41:47):
My grammar and my grandpa. I mean, then you
know
Dan Frievalt (41:54):
that. That's like the more so worse dad jokes, I
think.
Carl Caylor (42:00):
Yeah, that's pretty good. Dan. Roll laughing though.
I'm just saying that's true.
Michael Mowbray (42:05):
About Key West.
Unknown (42:08):
Oh, I love it there.
Michael Mowbray (42:09):
What do you love about Key West
Unknown (42:11):
Move, move.
What do I love Key West. It'sjust like, it's another world.
It's not like Florida. It'slike, it's like the tropics,
except not as far to go. So Ijust love the vibe there.
Michael Mowbray (42:25):
have chickens in the streets?
Dan Frievalt (42:28):
Just like they do have chickens. How about gazebo?
Unknown (42:32):
Ah,
Kimberley (42:34):
no,
Carl Caylor (42:36):
no, right? Just say no. No, no aliens.
Unknown (42:42):
Seriously, what is it?
The thing is ebos. Why do peoplewrite so much? actly? What?
Carl Caylor (42:50):
Right? You see right through there transparent?
Unknown (42:55):
Yeah, one of the girls in a group that we're in, you
know, knows very well. We allknow very well in our group
about how much we don't likegazebos. But her heard the
mother of the bride kept callingit a desirable dance.
Kimberley (43:10):
That makes right and then it's it's right. I mean, if
you need a picture, like isabeau
Carl Caylor (43:16):
bizzabo
Michael Mowbray (43:17):
right along the lines with that gelato bar.
Unknown (43:22):
Yes, I won't pay for it. That's
Kimberley (43:29):
okay. So
Unknown (43:31):
this was probably near again, near the point where I
probably should have beenthinking about my exit from
weddings. I had a client who wastalked to her met with them.
They were fantastic. I lovethem. I really wanted them to
hire me. And she called me acouple days later, and she's
like, we really want to hireyou. But I have a question. So
okay, she goes, we really wantto have a gelato bar at our
(43:54):
wedding because I'm Italian andblah, blah, blah. And this is
when the whole this whole gelatothing started. I said, Oh, that
sounds really cool. Yeah, Ithink she was gonna ask me like,
well, how would How would youtake photos to the glass and
blah, blah, blah. And she said,so I'm wondering. She said, The
only problem is the gelato barcost $250 to rent. So I'm
wondering if you could take thatoff the package if you would be
(44:15):
willing to go down $250 andliterally without like, it was
like, came out of my mouth.
Didn't think I said, I'm sorry.
Are you asking me to pay foryour gelato bar?
Carl Caylor (44:28):
Exactly.
Unknown (44:30):
She is. It was not the right thing to say. But it felt
really
Michael Mowbray (44:36):
that you had to say it
Kimberley (44:38):
felt real good.
Dan Frievalt (44:40):
But think of the exposure she didn't. I guess
Carl Caylor (44:47):
they'll tell all their friends. Yeah,
Kimberley (44:50):
gelato bar.
Michael Mowbray (44:52):
It's all how you position it because then you
could go out there and say, freegelato bar with every wedding
package.
Unknown (45:01):
I used to this life lesson later in my group saying,
you know, an appropriate answerwould have been I'm sorry, I
can't do that. But I would havethrown in something that cost me
very little value, you know, aparent album or you know,
something cheap like that, orgive her an extra hour of the
day or throne or a couple extrafiles or whatever. But at that
point, I was just I wasdisengaged enough for to say
(45:25):
that I was not going to pay forher gelato bar. Love it.
cautionary tale cautionary tale,my friends. If you start saying
that to your clients, you mightwant to think about
transitioning out.
Carl Caylor (45:38):
Oh, man, that could be a whole webinar. I mean, a
whole podcast. thought processis things you want to say. But
really shouldn't.
Kimberley (45:51):
That would entertain me. That would be all right.
Carl Caylor (45:54):
This one time I wanted to say. But I really
said, Yeah,
Michael Mowbray (45:59):
you know, this is total aside, and I sent I
sent this to you guys earliertoday. But we are in the top 12%
of all podcasts on buzzsprout,which is one of the biggest
podcast, wow publishers outthere. So that kind of blew me
away. podcasts out there.
Dan Frievalt (46:23):
I was just thinking, it's kind of like, you
know, hey, I'm in the top 10 ofmy class and I, you know, went
to a small school, it was like20 people in my class.
Kimberley (46:35):
Wow.
Unknown (46:36):
So
Carl Caylor (46:37):
it's still 12% dang it.
Michael Mowbray (46:40):
So what are the things, photographers or other
people in related industriesknow about the words they use
any tips you can give them?
Unknown (46:50):
Sure. Probably one of the easiest way to get free
words, is to ask fortestimonials from your clients.
They are gold. And people don'task for them enough. They, you
know, there's lots of hang upsabout them. A lot of people feel
like, Well, why would I put thaton my website or use it on
(47:12):
social media because of course,I'm only going to show the good
things, but people know thatthey're not looking for it when
they see when when a potentialclient sees a testimonial, what
they're looking for is an answerto their problem. So if you have
a testimonial, where someonesays, on my wedding day, my
formal portraits went so fast,she handled it so great. You
(47:34):
know, we got to we got to enjoyour cocktail hour, if that's
something a potential bride isworried about, or her mother has
expressed to her or whatever.
You just answered that question.
Because it wasn't you sayingDon't worry, don't worry, I'll
take care of that it was anotherclient saying that. So it's
great for backing up things onyour website, you can repurpose
them on social media. And youknow, I just think there, if
(47:58):
you're struggling for words, thefirst place you should go is
with clients that you've workedwith eat that love you, and that
you've had a great experience ofbecause it only makes sense that
cool people know cool people,right? So if you have a bride,
that's super fun to work with,you can fairly bad. I'm not
gonna say totally, but then herfriends are going to have a
(48:19):
similar personality as her. So Ithink everyone should build it
into their, their process, youknow, it should be kind of the
last touch, make it easy forthem, send them direct links to
Facebook or Google or whatever,and just say, you know what, if
you enjoyed working with me, Icould just say a few nice things
here on my site. 80% of peoplewill do it, the other 20% don't
(48:41):
do it either. Because they don'twant to, or they forget, they
put it off and they know they'reembarrassed. But if you would,
or they would anyway.
Anyway, right? So I just thinkit's I think it's a little piece
that people miss out on becauseit can be that little bit of
social proof and again, it'sit's free copy man, it's like
(49:04):
all the best stuff.
Michael Mowbray (49:05):
So if people need help word of tising where
should they go?
Unknown (49:11):
Well if you want to if you want me to write your words
you can go to red curl creativecalm. That's my done for you
service where I will write foryou for monies. I also have a
course called write betterwords. And you can if you type
that into Facebook, look forwrite better words with Kim
Anderson. You'll find me I havea free group and then there's
(49:31):
also a paid group. So if likeyou're the kind of like, DIY
HGTV kind of person who likeswho likes to take courses and
learn how to do things. I haveone awesome too. So read curl.
That's what the K right?
Carl Caylor (49:45):
Yeah, CH h aside Yeah.
Kimberley (49:49):
And z at the
Michael Mowbray (49:51):
rug, curl creative. Just want to make sure
everybody got that rug curlcreative. So anybody got parting
shots?
Carl Caylor (49:58):
Hey, I have one question from Note, radio versus
website versus newspaper anydifference?
Unknown (50:07):
Yes, I am not a radio person. So when someone comes to
me and they need radio copy, Isend them to someone who
specializes in that because itis so different, like my friend,
Michael Mowbray, it is such adifferent medium, because you're
not only dealing with I mean,there's timing involved, right?
Like a website is just like, youknow, it's static. But when it
comes to anything like thatnewspaper, I don't do a ton with
(50:30):
newspaper either other thanpress releases, some people
still do those. That's mostly mycorporate kind of clients. They
do press releases. So if I'mwriting for Marcus Corporation,
or something, they'll do it. ButBut yeah, they're very
different. And even when peoplecome to me, and they want me to
write, like, you know, Facebookads, I'll do it. But it's like,
(50:50):
that's not my expertise. Sowhile I'm happy to write the
copy for them, I tell them, youneed to take this to an ad
expert, you know, who knows whatthey're doing in terms of
putting it out into theuniverse? Because it's sort of
like, you know, everyone thinksyou're your photographer, you
have a camera, you can doproduct photography. Well,
that's not true. Right? Youknow. So I had to learn that
early on to say no to thingsthat I'm like, I don't know a
(51:12):
thing about this. And also, Idon't really want to learn.
Carl Caylor (51:17):
What's your favorite thing to do? Then? What
do you what do you want peopleto call you to do?
Unknown (51:24):
I really like BIOS, because they are so challenging.
And there's nothing moregratifying when I get one,
right, especially for someonewho has a really hard time
writing about themselves, eventhough they take me the longest,
because they I really have toput a lot of thought into them.
And they often have rewrites. Sothose are probably my favorites.
I like doing sales copy quite alot. If if the product is, you
(51:48):
know, interesting in the personis, is passionate about what
they do. And website copy, Ienjoy that as well. You know,
digging in and kind of findingthe right voice. Probably,
that's what it all comes back tofor me is if I can capture my
client's voice for them,especially if they have trouble
doing that themselves. That'sreally exciting.
(52:10):
Cool.
Michael Mowbray (52:11):
Awesome. Thanks for joining us. We have a
sponsor every week. And thisweek's sponsor is circumcision
ale from shmaltz brewing in NewYork City. Just because it's in
bad taste doesn't mean it tastesbad. circum session ale it's a
cut above the rest.
Unknown (52:31):
Oh.
Wow. You see
Carl Caylor (52:41):
they're all real.
Wow. Michael, I'm not gonnadrink
Kimberley (52:45):
all right.
Unknown (52:48):
craps happy writer.
Wow.
Michael Mowbray (52:53):
I don't know that was a big seller. Somebody
should just nip that in the bud.
Oh, anyway. Oh, yeah. For thisweek. And cheers to you guys.
Cheers. Cheers.
Unknown (53:09):
Cheers. Thanks, guys.
Fun. Last call.
Michael Mowbray (53:14):
You've been listening to the photo happy
hour podcast. Be sure to hitthat subscribe button to not
miss a single action packedepisode. And join our photo
happy hour Facebook group wherewe'll post links to the stuff we
all talk about. You can find mymo like gear online at www dot
gomo life.com. That's geo mo Ligh t.com You can find the
(53:36):
Facebook page under MoLightstore and I also run the Godox
flash help group on Facebook.
You can find Dan SR on locwebsite at www dot seniors
unlocked.com that's seniors withan S at the end unlocked.com and
the Facebook group under seniorsunlocked and you can find Carl's
coaching corner@www.cc photocoach comm cc photo coach.com
(53:58):
Till next time, cheers to you.
Liam (54:20):
I don't know who you are.
I don't know what you want. Ifyou want me to pay you to
subscribe, I can tell you Idon't have money. But what I do
have a very particular set ofskills, skills I have acquired
over a very long career skillsthat make me a nightmare for
people like you and if yousubscribe now, that will be the
(54:42):
end of it. I will not look foryou. I will not pursue you. But
if you don't I will look foryou. I will find you and I will
annoy you
Recorded live from the liquor department at
Piggly Wiggly. It's the photohappy hour podcast.
Hey, and welcome everybody comeon in and grab a seat. I'm your
photo happy hour. bartenderMichael Mowbray and I'm pouring
two for one shots of photographyknow how today. Joining me
(00:29):
behind the bar are Dan Frievaltand Carl Caylor. Say Hey, guys.
Dan Frievalt (00:32):
Hey guys, what's up, everyone?
Michael Mowbray (00:33):
So what do you guys drinking? What's on your
happy hour agenda?
Dan Frievalt (00:38):
I have whiskey, a whiskey. Well, I was gonna I did
pour a red wine but it went holdwent went bad on me. It's like
vinegar. So I had to switch toChardonnay, so I would be here
on time.
Michael Mowbray (00:53):
That's got enough sugar. That'll last for a
while too.
Dan Frievalt (00:56):
Yes.
Michael Mowbray (00:57):
Yeah. The Tennessee whiskey girl.
Carl Caylor (01:00):
I do. Tennessee whiskey.
Michael Mowbray (01:03):
The watermelon.
Nice. Sour. No balls are what Icouldn't. This is the Sour Patch
Kid whiskey.
Carl Caylor (01:14):
Yeah, that's the one.
Michael Mowbray (01:17):
Anyway. Wow, we're just like rolling right
along today, aren't we?
Carl Caylor (01:24):
Well, let's drink and we got an unreleased drink.
Michael Mowbray (01:26):
Well, I got to introduce her. Nobody knows
she's here yet. So anyway. Hey,right. I
Carl Caylor (01:30):
don't I won't spill the beans and I'm sorry.
Michael Mowbray (01:33):
Okay. Hang on.
I gotta pull up her bio here.
But I'm gonna I'm going to doyou know?
Dan Frievalt (01:41):
Was that stuff?
Boy, this is fine. fine tuned.
Here we go. Like the firstrecord. I didn't have like a
well oiled machine.
Kimberley (01:50):
I'm feeling right at home right now.
Michael Mowbray (01:52):
Yeah, well, I blame you because you threw us
all off. Okay, well, we'll editall this out, obviously.
Carl Caylor (01:57):
No, leave it just leave it. This is good stuff.
Michael Mowbray (02:02):
All right, if you're joining us for the first
time or the 22nd time, thepremise of this podcast is we
are three professionalphotographers who have been
around for a while, and we mightknow a thing or two. And the
important thing is we drink andthe more we drink, the more we
know. So and every week we havea topic, except for the weeks
(02:23):
where we don't. And this is aweek where we don't we've
actually got a guest. We have aninterview. Yes, yes. And who is
our interview? This is Yeah,she's interviewing for a job
this we're representing thestate of Wisconsin and you're on
you're applying forunemployment.
Kimberley (02:46):
No.
Hear me throw now triggered youtriggered already trigger me a
bride DWT.
Michael Mowbray (03:00):
Today, our guest is Kimberly Anderson. She
is she's been a photographer formany, many years, cut her teeth
in the wedding industry startingas a waitress at the age of 16.
at weddings at a country club,and I'm assuming over in the
Milwaukee area. So you've doneall kinds of things. You've
photographed all kinds ofthings, but a few years back you
(03:20):
said screw that and you shiftedand now you're into like the
word side you're tapping backinto your your Stephen UW
Stevens Point roots in was anEnglish degree. Is that
Kimberley (03:36):
good? Yeah, I actually got a degree in English
that I never used until now. Mymother's super proud. Well,
Nobody. Nobody ever uses theirEnglish. Seriously. Sure.
Dan Frievalt (03:46):
Especially in Wisconsin there.
Kimberley (03:49):
Don't need it, don't you? No. No. So tell
Michael Mowbray (03:58):
us a little bit about about this transition into
wording why wire wire words?
What Why? Why do words beimportant?
Unknown (04:06):
Why do why words. So so you know, I was I was a
photographer for 20 years, I wasa wedding photographer
primarily. And yeah, and one dayI just didn't want to be
anymore. And I did. You know,and I was like, okay, so yeah,
what next? Like, what do I do?
And one of my friends was like,well, you're always the person
(04:26):
that people go to when they wantto know how to say things like
what they want to answer anangry email, or they want to
know how to word, you know, wordsomething on their pricing. And
I was like, Oh, yeah, people dodo that. Will they pay me for
that? And she's like, Oh, no.
And I was like, Well, let metry. And so I just started
Googling. And I'm like, Oh, sonow I'm a copywriter. And I
(04:48):
literally went on Facebook andI'm like, So hey, I'm a
copywriter now. And that'sreally how I did it. I had set a
goal for myself to transitionout of photography within 18
months, because I had weddings Ihad to finish up. So in 2014, I
decided in 2016, I was done withweddings, and I just stopped
taking them and told people Iwas something else and started
(05:11):
writing things.
Michael Mowbray (05:13):
Isn't that amazing how you can do that?
Now?
Unknown (05:15):
You can. And you can do it, especially now with, you
know, with COVID and everything.
Now, some, some people may needto do that. And, you know, have
you asked me a year ago, if thatwas the smartest move I've ever
made? I probably would have toldyou no, because I didn't really
have a backup plan. But now, youknow, nobody needs a backup
plan. backup plans are just noteven a thing anymore. So
Michael Mowbray (05:38):
Well, sometimes in business, that it's good to
not have a backup plan becausethat puts more emphasis on
making whatever your primarything is you're doing. You have
to make it work, right.
Unknown (05:50):
Yeah. I mean, I didn't have to learn things just
because I knew how to writedidn't mean that I knew how to
do persuasive sales, copy andinbound marketing and things
like that. So I did I didactually take a bunch of classes
and courses and masterclassesand stuff so that I could learn
that because just because youknow how to string a few words
together doesn't mean it sellsthings for people.
Michael Mowbray (06:11):
Well, I can string a lot of good swear words
together, but
Unknown (06:15):
I can I can attest to that. You're real good.
Especially.
Dan Frievalt (06:19):
Especially when you like stub your toe.
Michael Mowbray (06:22):
Oh, yeah.
Carl Caylor (06:23):
It's when you step on the Legos. That's what does
it good. Now?
Dan Frievalt (06:28):
I don't have kids.
I don't have Legos. So I justhave beds that jump on me out of
nowhere.
Carl Caylor (06:34):
Legos for your dog dog adventure. Love it.
Dan Frievalt (06:37):
Well, yeah, I have stepped on his like toys and
then said similar to a Lego likethat's like,
Unknown (06:44):
son of
Carl Caylor (06:47):
a stream together in a grammatical fashion. Hey, I
have a question for ya. This isthis is really kind of more
curiosity than anything. Butwhen you had said that, you just
at one point said, I'm not gonnado weddings anymore. Did you say
it during a wedding? Oh, yeah,of course. Oh.
Unknown (07:07):
Well, actually, I'm probably not. And Michael
Michael knows the in depthversion of the story. But
basically, I had a bride whotried to sue me because she was
nine months pregnant at the timeof her wedding, and there were
all sorts of terrible thingsthat happened before her
wedding. Her wedding just didnot go like she wanted it to at
(07:28):
all. And the third time was thecharm for the wedding. And it
was in February during when wehad one of those minus 40 degree
days. And half of the peopledidn't show up to her wedding
because family drama, and thebig line that she said to me is
that I used a wide lens to makeeveryone look to make it look
(07:49):
like there was no one at herwedding. And then I managed to
even make her shadow look fat.
So she became shadow, thatshadow that shadow kind of
pushed me over the edge. I was Iwas thinking about it. And when
that happened, I was like, andI'm out, you know? And it was
also it was also you know, Imean, being photographer, you
(08:11):
guys know this. It's a superphysical job, you know? And
yeah, my knees were going and Iwas starting to be the same age
as my as my clients mom's youknow, I you know, I remember
walking into a wedding. And thiswoman's like, you look so
familiar. And I was like, you donot look familiar at all. And we
came to find out that we are wegraduated from high school The
(08:31):
same year, and I only had 93people in my class. And I was
like, if I look like that, thenI got it. I gotta go. So it
wasn't just that it just was aculmination of things. And it
was, you know, knowing thatsince really, I mostly did
weddings, I was like 95%weddings. So I just was like, I
(08:51):
do not want to be 60 years oldand chasing these these girls in
these white dresses around likeI needed an exit plan.
Michael Mowbray (09:00):
Most brides be crazy.
Dan Frievalt (09:03):
Speaking of, can we address Karl's incident after
our podcast last week when wetalked about Oh, no injuries and
being in shape for weddings andthings like that? And yeah, how
many days later? Was it carnal?
And this isn't the curry?
Carl Caylor (09:20):
Yeah, how ironic was that? Hey, you know, most
people that know me have havehad class with me know that. I'm
a big advocate of the 7200millimeter lens. And because it
narrows things down Of course,there you can find little nooks
and crannies. However, everyonce in a while there's a time
(09:40):
and a place for a wide anglelens. And I thought, because
there was this great big stormbrewing around us that the sky
looked really cool and thissoccer player kicking the ball
the more thunderous and andothers
Kimberley (09:55):
around the thigh here are
Carl Caylor (09:58):
no there was thunderous clouds. Going around
to show that part of the story.
It was magnificent. However,that means he wanted he wanted
to be kicking the soccer ball.
And to get him to kind of fill aframe. I was only maybe eight or
nine feet from him. And when hehaul up and kicked it, he might
(10:20):
have slipped off his foot alittle bit and square ups nailed
the the camera right in thelampshade on my 24 to 70. And
pretty much embedded the camerain the into my forehead.
Michael Mowbray (10:35):
Give you a black guy.
Carl Caylor (10:37):
I bled all over there all over their soccer
field. But we got some prettyamazing say did you get the shot
though? Right. And we did twomore outfits after that.
Michael Mowbray (10:54):
There was like, literally the our next podcast
episode that's posting that.
Well, this is after that's whenthey'll be able to hear this.
Well anyway. Go back and listento the podcast before this.
Because it's all about
Carl Caylor (11:07):
to add one thing to that story. And I felt so bad.
Maybe the poor kid. I mean, hefelt like he felt so bad about
it. And he kept going oh my god.
So I'm like I told you to kickthe ball. The next day,
Saturday, this is this happenedon Friday, Saturday. He he was
in Green Bay shopping. Mydaughter and my wife were in
Green Bay shopping. They happento run into each other places
(11:28):
are 100 miles away from here,run into each other and my
daughter knew him from school.
You're behind her in school.
He's like, see, you look whatyou did to my dad. And he was
just like, oh my god, I'm sosorry. He's fine. Don't worry
about it takes more than thatshop is no joke.
Dan Frievalt (11:47):
No. So they casually casually ran into each
other or like they rewrite No.
Yeah, correct. Okay, about theshopping mall. Oh, that's good.
Okay, right over there. If theygot an accident, then it'd be
like that really be ironic.
Unknown (12:03):
would be? Yes.
Carl Caylor (12:07):
So I got a follow up question. Kimberly. If I
actually looked at your at yourwebsite today, which is pretty
cool. By the way, Carl cameprepared today. I don't I did.
So I just just so you just wantto know if I find if I found a
typo. Should I tell you about ornot? Yeah, I'm kidding. I'm
kidding.
Unknown (12:27):
I'm the first to admit, I'm first of all, like, I do
typos every once in a while, youknow, because I even say that in
one of my things. It's like, ifI get something new for you will
be completely grammaticallycorrect and free of typos. And
I'm like, No, cuz I'm a humanbeing. You know.
Michael Mowbray (12:45):
We once we once ran an ad when I worked at the
ad agency, we were looking for aproofreader. And we purposely,
we, first of all, the title ofthe ad was proofreader. The ad
we told we asked people to findall the mistakes and correct
them. Admit it back. Yeah. So inthe in the Wisconsin State
(13:08):
Journal looking for aproofreader.
Dan Frievalt (13:14):
I can wrote that ad for you.
Michael Mowbray (13:18):
easily without even thinking, because it's
really important in especiallyin advertising, because you
don't want to misspell publicrelations as we've done before,
too. And leave the Yeah, yeah,yeah, you get weird applications
for that. Anyway. Um, what is,in your opinion? What is the
(13:42):
major or the biggest mistakethat most photographers make
when it comes to using language?
Dan Frievalt (13:48):
Ah, you took my question?
Unknown (13:50):
Oh, when using Legos.
So when writing things copy,that's your speaking, you know,
right. Okay. Yeah. I thinkprobably the biggest thing for
them is they have this real hangup on being salesy. You know,
that's really hard for them. Andit is for most people, but I
think it's even harder forcreatives, because it's so
personal. And they want peopleto hire them and like them
(14:12):
because of the work that theydo. And my job is to shatter
those dreams, and tell themthat, you know, part of your job
is sales, whether or not you'redoing it an in person sales
session, or on your website,part of your job is to ask
people to let you work withthem. And you know, and then and
then you've got SEO in the mix.
(14:34):
So there's all these differentelements to it. And they tend to
really want to take out all theparts where they're appealing to
people to work with them. Andthat's something that you know,
eventually they get there andsometimes it just as changing
the tone of the language fromsomething a little less moral to
something a little more casual.
Sometimes that works. But thatis that is probably the one
(14:55):
thing I bought up against themost
Michael Mowbray (14:59):
and you Using the passive voice,
Unknown (15:02):
and I am fine with the passive voice. I don't know why
that's a role. Fine. I havenothing disabled on grammerly.
I'm like, stop it with thepassive voice, you know?
Michael Mowbray (15:16):
What about Oxford commas? I mean, we here's
your answer to this is whetheror not we can stay friends. Are
you for? Or are you again? TheOxford comma?
Unknown (15:30):
I know.
Kimberley (15:31):
I am for
Unknown (15:36):
you and I are the same age. That's because we're
Dan Frievalt (15:38):
dinosaurs. I'm not sure what that means. I did
about what about the doublespace after a period?
Unknown (15:45):
Oh, no happened that, you know, literally, I have
every document I write I have acommand to go and look for that.
Because I cannot. I can't, Ican't. I can't quit it. I can't.
And so now I'm just it's justbecome part of my process that I
just go through and take it out.
Because I literally had aneditor say to me, I will fire
yousubmit one more document with
(16:06):
double spacing. Andso yeah, it's
Michael Mowbray (16:12):
back to that do expect the college where you had
to fill like four pages on anessay is like, oh, double. Yeah,
after the
Unknown (16:22):
word processor. Yeah, I mean, with typewriter, you had
to double space. So yeah, yeah,he tried to beat 40 years out of
me here. So, you know, but yeah,it's it every time I bring it
up. It's so funny to see peopleargue about it on Facebook or
whatever. And it's always, it'salways like, if you're over 50
you definitely like the doublespace. You know,
Michael Mowbray (16:45):
I've managed to train myself to not do it. So I
don't do it anymore. justmagically happen. See?
Carl Caylor (16:51):
No, but here's the thing. Here's the problem with
that. If you are like if you hitdouble tap, tap your space
space, it puts the period therefor you. If you don't tap tap,
it doesn't so which way is it?
You know, make it one way or theother. But don't make our phones
work. Tap Tap? Yeah, give me aperiod.
Unknown (17:12):
See, I know I don't worry about anything on a phone.
That's that's fine, anyhow. No,no. I used to be really
particular about thatcapitalizing everything. And
then finally one day I was like,You just lost your damn mind.
You need to just leave let thatgo. You know, life's too short.
Michael Mowbray (17:31):
I still punctuate all my texts. I'm
sorry.
Dan Frievalt (17:38):
I mean, I don't know it's either that or just
straight gifts. You know, one orthe other. Like, I see.
Michael Mowbray (17:44):
I fit I think I'm, I'm turning Egyptian. I
speak only an hiral hieroglyphs.
Carl Caylor (17:51):
hieroglyphics.
Unknown (17:53):
You are your gifts, you are gifted, you're gifted at the
gift you give to that the gift.
Carl Caylor (17:59):
He's quick. He's very quick. He's quick on the
draw with gifts.
Dan Frievalt (18:04):
So along the tangent of taboo or questions or
hit you up with things that youfeel are right to wrong, or
maybe not right or wrong. Butokay, let's talk about BIOS. And
oh, yeah, like your, yourthoughts on especially
photographer buyers buyersbecause we're in the
photographer. space. So yeah, Isaw you post something on this
(18:28):
recently. And so that's whatkind of triggered this question,
I guess.
Unknown (18:32):
Is it the one where I said that if I was an alien and
came down to the planet Earthand read 50 photographers
websites and didn't know what aphotographer was, all I would be
able to tell you is that theylove light and coffee and yoga.
Yes.
Dan Frievalt (18:46):
It wasn't done in depth. I like this better. But
yeah, yeah, please stop with thecoffee and yoga or something
along those Yeah. wide open.
Unknown (18:55):
Yeah. And, and and do you love photography? Since you
picked up a camera at age, youknow, insert 612 nine, whatever.
Yeah, and you know, and it'sthat that is mostly just because
I mean, BIOS are really hard.
They are. And it's even worsewhen you're writing about
yourself. Of all the things thatI write BIOS are the hardest,
because even so now they have tobe shorter than they ever were.
(19:18):
They have to be relatable. Andwe all when we don't know what
to say go to Whatever's easiest.
And whatever is true, right? Imean, I believe all those
photographers do love light andcoffee and yoga. But the problem
is, so does every otherphotographer in the state of
Wisconsin. So if someone'scoming into your website, and
(19:39):
they're reading these BIOS, andthey all sound the same, well,
who are you going to pick? Imean, I would pick the person
who sounded most interesting,because in a sea of
photographers, unless you'reunless you're really crappy
photographer, they are going tosee you know, a different work
but it's all going to be aboutthe same if they're looking in a
certain price range. One wouldhope
Kimberley (20:02):
the quality of photographs and looking
Unknown (20:04):
at are about the same, right, you know?
So that's the thing then thenwhat's the qualifier? You know,
what's the qualifier? What Whatelse are they going to look for?
They're gonna look for someonewho sounds like, they're cool to
hang out with, right, but theyhave common interests and
photographers also tend to startat the beginning of the story.
Like, you know, like, you know,in my bio, I talk a little bit
(20:25):
about how I grew up. I literallygrew up in weddings. I started
out as a waitress in a countryclub, you know, at weddings. And
I go on from there, but soundslike a country club.
Kimberley (20:55):
sassy, sassy chicken.
Always.
Carl Caylor (20:58):
Yeah. I was trying to think of the saucy chicken I
will always get deep friedstuff.
Unknown (21:03):
Yeah, I gotta get
Kimberley (21:05):
roasted.
Michael Mowbray (21:09):
In pictures of milk on the table, too.
Unknown (21:12):
Yeah, down here, down here at the Milwaukee we get the
saucy chicken and beef tipssaying Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah,
I mean, it's just, it's a matterof, you know, finding the right
balance and saying, telling methings that are interesting
about you that don't sound likeeverybody else. And that that is
hard. Because you do havesimilar likes and dislikes. But
(21:33):
you have to look at it from kindof like a client's point of
view, and about you, is aboutyou. But it's more about the
relationship of working with theclient, like what they're going
to get when they work with you.
So it's kind of a delicatebalance between that and
revealing yourself to being aninteresting human being. Right,
well, so
Carl Caylor (21:51):
Kimberly, how do I how do you do that? When you
don't really know? I mean, howdo you write a bio for somebody
else? And what questions do youask them to get you started? I
mean, what do I have to give?
Unknown (22:04):
So it starts with a discovery form. And I have a
bunch of questions on there thatI asked, just to kind of
uncover, you know, what yourlike, what you what you like,
what you what you don't like,who you like working with, who
you don't like working with. AndI have clients fill that out. If
they don't fill it out, whereit's pretty meaty, I will send
(22:24):
it back and be like, try harder,you know, I mean, I need more
information. And then we have,we actually have a zoom call.
And it usually takes about 45minutes to an hour, where I dig
into their questions, ask themmore questions, get them to talk
about themselves a little bitmore. In between the discovery
call and the zoom call, I go Igo deep, I go searching through
(22:46):
their profiles. I read all thecomments people say, I go into,
you know, any little tiny bit ofinformation I can mine on them
on the internet, I find outbecause I can weave that into
the questions. Sometimes theythey realize I do it. Most of
the time they don't. And theyjust start answering my
question. Reviews are superrevealing to me. So if they're
(23:10):
if they're one of the few peoplewho actually asked for reviews,
and has testimonials, I can geta really good idea of how they
work and ask them more questionsabout that. And then we talk a
little bit about the tone, youknow, how formal Do you want it
to be? How irreverent Do youwant it to be like who are your
clients, if you're working withthe Country Club, set, your bio
(23:34):
is going to sound very differentif you're, you know, wimzie in
light doing outdoor barnweddings, so we have to be sure
that it matches that and a lotof people get very hung up on
that as well. Like they reallythey you know, I'll read their
I'll read their bio, and I'll belike, this is not at all like
what you do. Well, and theythink well, and or they'll write
(23:54):
it in, you know, they will writeit in the first person. Like,
you know, the Michael Mowbray isan award winning, you know, and
I'm like, Where did that comefrom? Like, why are you this is
not LinkedIn. So why are youwriting like that?
You just like the award winningthing?
(24:16):
Yes, actually.
Kimberley (24:26):
Any minute now.
Michael Mowbray (24:29):
I don't even know where it is right now.
Dan Frievalt (24:32):
Here's my award.
Michael Mowbray (24:37):
Girl you'll like this. I got like my fujis
and my codecs over here. You cansee they're off camera. They're
holding up my my Sonics phone.
Carl Caylor (24:49):
Yeah. Hey, wait a minute. I just occurred to me.
Wait, we don't know what you'redrinking. Kimberly. What are you
drinking?
Unknown (24:55):
Oh, I have right here.
I have a Russian Margarita. Oh,this would be awesome. A child
of the 70s. So this would be avodka fresca, because that's
what. It's a Russian Margarita.
Carl Caylor (25:05):
That's Russian.
Unknown (25:08):
That's what my mother calls it. Oh, at least it's at
least it's Tito's, though. Soit's Hi.
Michael Mowbray (25:15):
Nice. Actually, I I didn't say what I'm having.
I'm having some aberfeldiescotch. It's a 12 year old
Island single malt Scotch. Huh.
First off, that is pretty good.
Huh? doesn't suck on our localliquor store. We got we got a
new one like last year and bigone. And they have I swear, it's
(25:37):
probably 50 different types ofscotch in there. Usually you go
into a liquor store andWisconsin is like they got
Johnnie Walker red JohnnieWalker black, maybe Glenfiddich.
These guys had like, mindblowing,
Unknown (25:53):
well, then I didn't even need to go to Scotland to
get you that that was no, thatwas lovely. I appreciated
Michael Mowbray (25:58):
that. But yeah, I went the other day and walked
out. $400 later. Oops.
Carl Caylor (26:06):
I made a nice photograph, though. I just gotta
say,
Michael Mowbray (26:09):
I got some wine too.
Dan Frievalt (26:12):
Is that why I got an email about the MoLight?
sale?
Unknown (26:20):
You need to sell some flashes.
Dan Frievalt (26:25):
I need to pay my liquor bill.
Michael Mowbray (26:31):
Amex is I plan to photograph all those bottles?
So there you go.
Carl Caylor (26:36):
lead in that's a good lead into my next question,
actually, is when, when we asphotographers are going to do a
sale? What? What? What kind ofwork? I mean, what, what do you
do for that? I mean, you dowrite things for a sale?
Unknown (26:52):
Sure. Usually, that's an email series, one email is
not going to get you much. It'salso going to depend on how warm
your list is, if you haven'tbeen emailing your lists
consistently. Your open rateisn't going to be as good is if
you've been consistently sendinggood
Dan Frievalt (27:10):
backup backup we have to talk to about people
actually starting a list and
Kimberley (27:20):
they forget, like professionals.
Carl Caylor (27:23):
What's that? Why, why?
Dan Frievalt (27:26):
What what we should explain what a list is
first, before we get carriedaway. I do
Carl Caylor (27:31):
have a check off.
So I know what I did for
Kimberley (27:33):
Yeah.
Michael Mowbray (27:35):
I've got I've got a list, but I put people on
it.
Unknown (27:41):
And you don't worry, be honest. Yes. You don't get the
poop emoji list.
Carl Caylor (27:46):
No, it's it. It is a different letter. Yeah,
Dan Frievalt (27:49):
no, it's called the rose the rose list. That's
what success word calls it. Youyou label clients that are kind
of troublesome though you givehim a rose label? Because it
sounds nice. But it's the thornin your side? Oh,
Unknown (28:09):
God. Yeah. So we have a good, I mean, you're right
there. Yeah, there you guys havelists. But you know, other
photographers may not havelists, they may have more like
client lists, where you guys domore of education part. So, you
know, it would depend on whoexactly you're writing to. But
usually one email shot off intothe ether is not gonna not gonna
get you a whole lot. You have tohave a relationship with the
(28:31):
people you're emailing, you haveto give them good content, you
have to have given themsomething for free, because
hashtag photographers, and thenyou have to appeal to just to
sell to them, you have to have,you know, it's it's a reciprocal
relationship. It's the givingback. It's the 80% giving in the
20% selling that they that Ialways advise. It's the same
(28:53):
when you're writing a salesemail, and not putting the word
sale in the subject line,because that'll get you flagged
for spam. And people will click
Michael Mowbray (29:01):
right off unless you're trying to sell
flashes to pay for your scotchbill.
Unknown (29:08):
Now, if you put that in the subject line, Daddy needs a
daddy needs this guy. I think Iwould want to see you. I want to
see you AB test that
Carl Caylor (29:19):
tension. I swear.
Michael Mowbray (29:22):
I've got something coming up in about two
weeks. I may be testing, okay.
And by the way, people who don'tunderstand what a B testing is,
by the way, make notes when youlisten to our podcasts and go
look it up. Because we ain'tyour damn Google. Anyway.
Carl Caylor (29:38):
Write that down.
Michael Mowbray (29:40):
AV testing is you you create one headline and
a second alternative headline,and you send it to each one to
half of your list and see whichone pulls better. And you'll
learn about the behavior habitsof your list and how you need to
tailor copy that sells to them.
There you go.
Unknown (29:59):
Exactly. Just
Dan Frievalt (30:00):
like science man, Mr. Moe, but you can also do
with Facebook ads as well have abe testing them, like graphics,
creative wording works best. Andyeah, there's a lot that goes
into it. And, you know, wetalked a while back about
outsourcing and I am not goodwith my words, if you've
listened to this podcast morethan 15 minutes, you will know
(30:22):
that we haven't hit a word yetalways correcting me or helping
me with my words. And so Iactually hired Kimberly a few
times to write things for mebecause it is not my strong
point. So I always say hire foryour weaknesses. And it is a
great experience. And oh, Carl,you asked earlier like, Well,
you know, what, how does thatwork? And it is great working
(30:45):
with Kimberly, where you we dida zoom call, or it's like,
here's kind of what I'mthinking. And if you know me as
a creative person, the mostcreative people, it's like,
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,like, ideas are firing, and
things are firing all over. Soit's like, okay, wrangle this
in. And so it's not only justwording, it's like wrangling and
get your message clear. Becausesomeone else reading this, it
(31:07):
knows nothing about you needs aclear message, you know, with
words, but also with themessage. So, yeah, highly
recommend, if you
Unknown (31:16):
that is hard, it's it.
It's hard. It's really hard totake your own thoughts. And I
mean, it's so much nicer whensomeone else does that for you.
Carl Caylor (31:24):
Well, it's nice that you've been in the
industry, too. I mean, that's, Imean, especially by for
photography. That's huge. Yeah.
I mean, I've worked with othermarketing people that they don't
have a clue what we do, and it'sa struggle.
Michael Mowbray (31:38):
Yeah, they don't.
Unknown (31:40):
Yeah, and I was taking a little bit of a risk when I
did that, because I thought, whoI'm really niching down, you
know, but I that was quicklyameliorated. When I, when I
first started, I pretty muchwould write for anybody, you
know, and I ended up readingblogs about mold. And I had to
write 16 blogs a month aboutmold, and every single one of
(32:04):
them had to be different
Carl Caylor (32:05):
to the spores. Oh, sorry.
Unknown (32:14):
For and I did that for I don't know, maybe a year and a
half my gosh, because it waslike it was it wasn't that hard.
I could write them. I could bangthem out in like, 15 minutes,
you know. And finally, one day,I'm like, I just I can't write
about mold anymore. And Ithought I you know, what could
be worse?
Michael Mowbray (32:32):
Right. 70 blogs about mold. I just did the math.
Kimberley (32:35):
Yes, you are. Right.
Carl Caylor (32:38):
I'm just saying.
Unknown (32:41):
Yeah, yeah. I know a lot about mold. Yeah. Yeah.
So so that's when I decided,well, I'm just going to niche
down because I know a button andI know the industry. And then I
expanded it beyond photographersso I do have a pretty big
clientele that is also likewedding planners and a lot of
wedding planners. Some DJs acouple florists. So anything
(33:06):
that's kind of in the weddingsphere I feel comfortable with
and you know, even photographythat I didn't do a lot of like
goodwill, I think I did oneboudoir session and I went
so you know,
Michael Mowbray (33:18):
but I do it goes back on.
Dan Frievalt (33:20):
So can you Yeah, you may have answered a
different debate we've had onthis this podcast in the past
and is it niche or niche? How do
Unknown (33:35):
I say niche niche?
Dan Frievalt (33:42):
I've tried to switch to saying nice, but it's
it's, you know? It's liketeaching my grandmother it's a
unthaw, you know.
Unknown (33:56):
Thought is totally a word. I did not honestly the
first time someone challenged meon that. I was like, that's
totally a word. And then I foundout No, that's just
Carl Caylor (34:04):
like you can really get in trouble with that.
Michael Mowbray (34:09):
Yeah, come on, either fight, or doesn't flam
Kimberley (34:12):
words are
Dan Frievalt (34:17):
good stuff.
Michael Mowbray (34:18):
So I tell people where to get a
confession. Oh, go ahead. No,no, no. You go.
Carl Caylor (34:25):
My father just so you know, my dad is an English
teacher. So I grew up Ah, withthis. And it's interesting
because I can't spell where thecrap. I mean, I understand. It's
kind of beat into me over theyears. But I cannot for the life
of me spell. And so where's itlike, do with it? Cuz I can't be
(34:48):
the only one.
Unknown (34:50):
So, no, I'm not a terrifically great speller. But
Carl Caylor (34:53):
even even grammar.
How do you deal with I mean,most photographers, like you
said are creatives and yeah,there's a whole whole different
world in the English language,as far as creativity, and how
hard is it to deal with that?
That disconnect?
Unknown (35:13):
It depends, you know, I am very much a proponent of
you're not trying to win aPulitzer here, right? At least
not for your words, yet. I mean,there's a difference between
being grammatically correct. Andgetting your point across and
simple and direct wins out everytime over AP grammar. You know,
obviously, if it's horrificallybad if it's really a huge full
(35:38):
pot, no, but it's okay to usecommon words instead of fancy
words. And there's very fewphotographers who sites, I'll
look at that, I'll be like, Oh,this is just fat, you know, it
may not be particularlycreative, it may be redundant,
it may be kind of boring. Butmost people have at least a
(35:58):
concept of what to what towrite. But again, they usually
are kind of missing that call toaction. You know, they don't,
they don't follow all the waythrough, they just sort of word
vomit, and then just back awayfrom it and think, oh, I don't
want to do this anymore. Youknow, I want to do everything.
Dan Frievalt (36:19):
Well, you bring up a lot of good points, because
you know, as creatives andphotographers, we we feel like,
Oh, I want to get my websiterolling. And the first thing
that comes to mind is imagery,like I need strong imagery and
strong imagery, but following itthrough with the details of
wording and call to action andall those things will, you know,
just take it and SEO, as youmentioned, will just take it to
(36:43):
the next level. And it's onething I think we as creators,
kind of overlook, or don't putas much emphasis on?
Unknown (36:51):
Yeah, well, if Imagine you're, you know, Suzy, whoever
looking for a photographer, andyou got two sites pulled up. And
they're both greatphotographers, as far as you can
tell. And one's got pretty goodwords, and one's got great
words, the great words is goingto get is going to get the thing
if they're both kind of greatphotos and kind of crappy words.
(37:13):
Where do you think that personis going to go next? Where do
you think their minds gonnaglitter one
Michael Mowbray (37:18):
the most? Well,
Unknown (37:19):
they're gonna choose whoever is cheaper. Because they
don't, they don't see they don'tsee any difference, right? They
say good photos. They seeaverage words, right? This one's
$500. Cheaper. Ah, so I get it.
So if your words, your words,don't put your price on your
website. I see what you'resaying.
Kimberley (37:38):
That's a man.
That actually isn't too bad.
Unknown (37:46):
So what
Carl Caylor (37:47):
I got one thing again,
Michael Mowbray (37:49):
yeah, well, that's that's actually one of
the things I'm going to be doingin the kind of the offseason is
I just rebuilt my website andrelaunched it month and a half
ago or so. But it was seriouslyword vomit. I mean, a halfway
decent writer. So I was like,but I was writing it as I was
building it. So I got to go backand go through it all and go,
whoo, whoo, whoo. But yeah,that's something everybody
(38:12):
should be doing in theoffseasons go through all your
marketing communications. Yeah,go through your website, go
through everything on yourFacebook page, wherever and
refine it, and re hone it and,and make it better make it more
gooder. So it's the most, most
Unknown (38:30):
photographers are really great about updating,
updating their images, but theytend to not do it with their
word, right pricing. And youshould be doing it just about as
up because especially now, Imean, I'm sure you have
different offerings than you hadsix months ago, at least you
should, you know, we've all hadto pivot and find other things
to offer. So go back through,add things in take out what
(38:52):
doesn't apply anymore. You know,talk about being socially
distance, whatever you have todo to bring your website up to
date, otherwise, it's gonnalook,
Michael Mowbray (39:02):
that's that's a good point. Do you have for
folks who are listening? Do youhave a stated COVID-19 policy on
your website? Or how you'rehandling COVID-19?
Unknown (39:16):
I do not because I
Michael Mowbray (39:20):
for people listening. You can answer
personally cuz you're a personand you're here. So
Unknown (39:27):
I don't because I work remotely. You know, I don't ever
see people but I have written alot of statements for people and
an awful lot of blogs about itabout micro weddings, and you
know, and COVID you know, if youwant something for your
contract, then you need to go tolike a lawyer but but yeah, you
should have you absolutelyshould have like how do you if
(39:48):
you're a newborn photographer,heck yeah. I'm gonna want to
know how you
Michael Mowbray (39:51):
always wondered how they could handle the
camera. They don't even havehand eye coordination yet?
Unknown (39:56):
No, not at all. Yeah.
Kimberley (40:00):
posable you totally got me there. Wow.
Wow, I cannot believe I fell forthat happened during
Carl Caylor (40:09):
that Russian lady.
lately. We haven't had areference drink yet. Oh
Dan Frievalt (40:24):
wow, we talked about journey, I mean
Kimberley (40:28):
housing journey.
Michael Mowbray (40:33):
Alright, so what one thing we'd like to do.
It's a tradition here at thephoto happy hour. Whenever we
have a guest we play wordassociation. You're our second
guest. So I guess it is atradition now.
Kimberley (40:49):
Southern
Michael Mowbray (40:52):
with Dan McClanahan, and it was
incredible.
Dan Frievalt (40:55):
Oh, we got,
Michael Mowbray (40:57):
but I'm gonna throw words at you. Okay, and
just tell us you know, tell uswhat it means. unicorn. Okay.
Very much so. And I actually Ihave to say, I have shadow on my
list.
Kimberley (41:17):
You're gonna get me to tell that story.
Michael Mowbray (41:19):
Absolutely. I still remember that. Made my
shadow look fat. That soundslike that sounds like a mama
joke. Your mama so fat. Hershadows even fat?
Unknown (41:31):
Yeah, except she used it for her face.
Michael Mowbray (41:35):
Buddy. Okay.
Wow. You talked a lot aboutgrammar. Let's talk about
grammar.
Kimberley (41:41):
grandpere you got nothing. Is that? Is that an
issue? I don't know.
Michael Mowbray (41:47):
My grammar and my grandpa. I mean, then you
know
Dan Frievalt (41:54):
that. That's like the more so worse dad jokes, I
think.
Carl Caylor (42:00):
Yeah, that's pretty good. Dan. Roll laughing though.
I'm just saying that's true.
Michael Mowbray (42:05):
About Key West.
Unknown (42:08):
Oh, I love it there.
Michael Mowbray (42:09):
What do you love about Key West
Unknown (42:11):
Move, move.
What do I love Key West. It'sjust like, it's another world.
It's not like Florida. It'slike, it's like the tropics,
except not as far to go. So Ijust love the vibe there.
Michael Mowbray (42:25):
have chickens in the streets?
Dan Frievalt (42:28):
Just like they do have chickens. How about gazebo?
Unknown (42:32):
Ah,
Kimberley (42:34):
no,
Carl Caylor (42:36):
no, right? Just say no. No, no aliens.
Unknown (42:42):
Seriously, what is it?
The thing is ebos. Why do peoplewrite so much? actly? What?
Carl Caylor (42:50):
Right? You see right through there transparent?
Unknown (42:55):
Yeah, one of the girls in a group that we're in, you
know, knows very well. We allknow very well in our group
about how much we don't likegazebos. But her heard the
mother of the bride kept callingit a desirable dance.
Kimberley (43:10):
That makes right and then it's it's right. I mean, if
you need a picture, like isabeau
Carl Caylor (43:16):
bizzabo
Michael Mowbray (43:17):
right along the lines with that gelato bar.
Unknown (43:22):
Yes, I won't pay for it. That's
Kimberley (43:29):
okay. So
Unknown (43:31):
this was probably near again, near the point where I
probably should have beenthinking about my exit from
weddings. I had a client who wastalked to her met with them.
They were fantastic. I lovethem. I really wanted them to
hire me. And she called me acouple days later, and she's
like, we really want to hireyou. But I have a question. So
okay, she goes, we really wantto have a gelato bar at our
(43:54):
wedding because I'm Italian andblah, blah, blah. And this is
when the whole this whole gelatothing started. I said, Oh, that
sounds really cool. Yeah, Ithink she was gonna ask me like,
well, how would How would youtake photos to the glass and
blah, blah, blah. And she said,so I'm wondering. She said, The
only problem is the gelato barcost $250 to rent. So I'm
wondering if you could take thatoff the package if you would be
(44:15):
willing to go down $250 andliterally without like, it was
like, came out of my mouth.
Didn't think I said, I'm sorry.
Are you asking me to pay foryour gelato bar?
Carl Caylor (44:28):
Exactly.
Unknown (44:30):
She is. It was not the right thing to say. But it felt
really
Michael Mowbray (44:36):
that you had to say it
Kimberley (44:38):
felt real good.
Dan Frievalt (44:40):
But think of the exposure she didn't. I guess
Carl Caylor (44:47):
they'll tell all their friends. Yeah,
Kimberley (44:50):
gelato bar.
Michael Mowbray (44:52):
It's all how you position it because then you
could go out there and say, freegelato bar with every wedding
package.
Unknown (45:01):
I used to this life lesson later in my group saying,
you know, an appropriate answerwould have been I'm sorry, I
can't do that. But I would havethrown in something that cost me
very little value, you know, aparent album or you know,
something cheap like that, orgive her an extra hour of the
day or throne or a couple extrafiles or whatever. But at that
point, I was just I wasdisengaged enough for to say
(45:25):
that I was not going to pay forher gelato bar. Love it.
cautionary tale cautionary tale,my friends. If you start saying
that to your clients, you mightwant to think about
transitioning out.
Carl Caylor (45:38):
Oh, man, that could be a whole webinar. I mean, a
whole podcast. thought processis things you want to say. But
really shouldn't.
Kimberley (45:51):
That would entertain me. That would be all right.
Carl Caylor (45:54):
This one time I wanted to say. But I really
said, Yeah,
Michael Mowbray (45:59):
you know, this is total aside, and I sent I
sent this to you guys earliertoday. But we are in the top 12%
of all podcasts on buzzsprout,which is one of the biggest
podcast, wow publishers outthere. So that kind of blew me
away. podcasts out there.
Dan Frievalt (46:23):
I was just thinking, it's kind of like, you
know, hey, I'm in the top 10 ofmy class and I, you know, went
to a small school, it was like20 people in my class.
Kimberley (46:35):
Wow.
Unknown (46:36):
So
Carl Caylor (46:37):
it's still 12% dang it.
Michael Mowbray (46:40):
So what are the things, photographers or other
people in related industriesknow about the words they use
any tips you can give them?
Unknown (46:50):
Sure. Probably one of the easiest way to get free
words, is to ask fortestimonials from your clients.
They are gold. And people don'task for them enough. They, you
know, there's lots of hang upsabout them. A lot of people feel
like, Well, why would I put thaton my website or use it on
(47:12):
social media because of course,I'm only going to show the good
things, but people know thatthey're not looking for it when
they see when when a potentialclient sees a testimonial, what
they're looking for is an answerto their problem. So if you have
a testimonial, where someonesays, on my wedding day, my
formal portraits went so fast,she handled it so great. You
(47:34):
know, we got to we got to enjoyour cocktail hour, if that's
something a potential bride isworried about, or her mother has
expressed to her or whatever.
You just answered that question.
Because it wasn't you sayingDon't worry, don't worry, I'll
take care of that it was anotherclient saying that. So it's
great for backing up things onyour website, you can repurpose
them on social media. And youknow, I just think there, if
(47:58):
you're struggling for words, thefirst place you should go is
with clients that you've workedwith eat that love you, and that
you've had a great experience ofbecause it only makes sense that
cool people know cool people,right? So if you have a bride,
that's super fun to work with,you can fairly bad. I'm not
gonna say totally, but then herfriends are going to have a
(48:19):
similar personality as her. So Ithink everyone should build it
into their, their process, youknow, it should be kind of the
last touch, make it easy forthem, send them direct links to
Facebook or Google or whatever,and just say, you know what, if
you enjoyed working with me, Icould just say a few nice things
here on my site. 80% of peoplewill do it, the other 20% don't
(48:41):
do it either. Because they don'twant to, or they forget, they
put it off and they know they'reembarrassed. But if you would,
or they would anyway.
Anyway, right? So I just thinkit's I think it's a little piece
that people miss out on becauseit can be that little bit of
social proof and again, it'sit's free copy man, it's like
(49:04):
all the best stuff.
Michael Mowbray (49:05):
So if people need help word of tising where
should they go?
Unknown (49:11):
Well if you want to if you want me to write your words
you can go to red curl creativecalm. That's my done for you
service where I will write foryou for monies. I also have a
course called write betterwords. And you can if you type
that into Facebook, look forwrite better words with Kim
Anderson. You'll find me I havea free group and then there's
(49:31):
also a paid group. So if likeyou're the kind of like, DIY
HGTV kind of person who likeswho likes to take courses and
learn how to do things. I haveone awesome too. So read curl.
That's what the K right?
Carl Caylor (49:45):
Yeah, CH h aside Yeah.
Kimberley (49:49):
And z at the
Michael Mowbray (49:51):
rug, curl creative. Just want to make sure
everybody got that rug curlcreative. So anybody got parting
shots?
Carl Caylor (49:58):
Hey, I have one question from Note, radio versus
website versus newspaper anydifference?
Unknown (50:07):
Yes, I am not a radio person. So when someone comes to
me and they need radio copy, Isend them to someone who
specializes in that because itis so different, like my friend,
Michael Mowbray, it is such adifferent medium, because you're
not only dealing with I mean,there's timing involved, right?
Like a website is just like, youknow, it's static. But when it
comes to anything like thatnewspaper, I don't do a ton with
(50:30):
newspaper either other thanpress releases, some people
still do those. That's mostly mycorporate kind of clients. They
do press releases. So if I'mwriting for Marcus Corporation,
or something, they'll do it. ButBut yeah, they're very
different. And even when peoplecome to me, and they want me to
write, like, you know, Facebookads, I'll do it. But it's like,
(50:50):
that's not my expertise. Sowhile I'm happy to write the
copy for them, I tell them, youneed to take this to an ad
expert, you know, who knows whatthey're doing in terms of
putting it out into theuniverse? Because it's sort of
like, you know, everyone thinksyou're your photographer, you
have a camera, you can doproduct photography. Well,
that's not true. Right? Youknow. So I had to learn that
early on to say no to thingsthat I'm like, I don't know a
(51:12):
thing about this. And also, Idon't really want to learn.
Carl Caylor (51:17):
What's your favorite thing to do? Then? What
do you what do you want peopleto call you to do?
Unknown (51:24):
I really like BIOS, because they are so challenging.
And there's nothing moregratifying when I get one,
right, especially for someonewho has a really hard time
writing about themselves, eventhough they take me the longest,
because they I really have toput a lot of thought into them.
And they often have rewrites. Sothose are probably my favorites.
I like doing sales copy quite alot. If if the product is, you
(51:48):
know, interesting in the personis, is passionate about what
they do. And website copy, Ienjoy that as well. You know,
digging in and kind of findingthe right voice. Probably,
that's what it all comes back tofor me is if I can capture my
client's voice for them,especially if they have trouble
doing that themselves. That'sreally exciting.
(52:10):
Cool.
Michael Mowbray (52:11):
Awesome. Thanks for joining us. We have a
sponsor every week. And thisweek's sponsor is circumcision
ale from shmaltz brewing in NewYork City. Just because it's in
bad taste doesn't mean it tastesbad. circum session ale it's a
cut above the rest.
Unknown (52:31):
Oh.
Wow. You see
Carl Caylor (52:41):
they're all real.
Wow. Michael, I'm not gonnadrink
Kimberley (52:45):
all right.
Unknown (52:48):
craps happy writer.
Wow.
Michael Mowbray (52:53):
I don't know that was a big seller. Somebody
should just nip that in the bud.
Oh, anyway. Oh, yeah. For thisweek. And cheers to you guys.
Cheers. Cheers.
Unknown (53:09):
Cheers. Thanks, guys.
Fun. Last call.
Michael Mowbray (53:14):
You've been listening to the photo happy
hour podcast. Be sure to hitthat subscribe button to not
miss a single action packedepisode. And join our photo
happy hour Facebook group wherewe'll post links to the stuff we
all talk about. You can find mymo like gear online at www dot
gomo life.com. That's geo mo Ligh t.com You can find the
(53:36):
Facebook page under MoLightstore and I also run the Godox
flash help group on Facebook.
You can find Dan SR on locwebsite at www dot seniors
unlocked.com that's seniors withan S at the end unlocked.com and
the Facebook group under seniorsunlocked and you can find Carl's
coaching corner@www.cc photocoach comm cc photo coach.com
(53:58):
Till next time, cheers to you.
Liam (54:20):
I don't know who you are.
I don't know what you want. Ifyou want me to pay you to
subscribe, I can tell you Idon't have money. But what I do
have a very particular set ofskills, skills I have acquired
over a very long career skillsthat make me a nightmare for
people like you and if yousubscribe now, that will be the
(54:42):
end of it. I will not look foryou. I will not pursue you. But
if you don't I will look foryou. I will find you and I will
annoy you
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