March 28, 2025 • 34 mins
Today's Play: Coach Keenan Hickton shares his journey from multi-sport athlete in Pittsburgh to Emory University standout, and eventually to coaching one of the top-ranked Division III golf teams in the country. Keenan talks about what he looks for in recruits—highlighting the rare but powerful combination of confidence and humility—and why rankings don’t always tell the full story. He offers valuable advice to parents on how to support their young athletes through the emotional highs and lows of competitive sports, urging families to stay process-focused, trust the coach, and avoid overreacting to short-term results.
Today's Coach: Keenan Hickton is the newly appointed Head Men’s Golf Coach at The University of the South, Sewanee. He spent the last six years as assistant coach at Emory University, where the team achieved a No. 1 national ranking, placed in the top 5 nationally for most of his tenure, and won 22 tournaments—including three UAA championships. As a student-athlete at Emory, Keenan was a three-time UAA team champion, Tournament MVP, and two-time All-Scholar Team honoree, graduating in 2018 with a degree in Business Administration.
To learn more about Bryant College Coaching, and download our new e-book, click here or go to www.bryantcollegecoaching.com
Picking Teams: A Playbook for Parents is produced by: Amy Bryant and Sasha Melamud
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Bryant (00:00):
Music. Welcome to picking teams. Thanks so much
(00:06):
for being here, Keenan. We'rereally glad to have you. And
congratulations on your newposition up at the University of
the South in Sewanee, Tennessee.
Is it in Sewanee, Tennessee?
That's the name of the town,right,
Keenan Hickton (00:18):
pretty much right in Sewanee, Tennessee,
yeah, it's two and a half hoursfrom Atlanta, an hour and a half
from Nashville, right in themiddle. Essentially, if you're
driving, you're gonna pass rightthrough it, and you got to go up
a mountain to get there, prettymuch at the top of the mountain.
Yeah. What I love about swan isthat the athletic director is
the mayor of Suwannee. He ispretty much one of the most
incredible people I've met sofar. I mean, I think you know
(00:40):
that already, 33 years coachingtennis, a very, wildly
successful tennis program here,and he just knows everybody
here. I mean, it's incredible towatch him work. He just knows
every single person here, and heknows how to move people. And
I'd say maybe the mostincredible thing about him is
(01:00):
there are so many people nowthat know him, former players,
former opposing players, formercoaches, athletic directors, and
Overwhelmingly, people will saypositive things about him. You
know, a lot of people, at leasthave a couple enemies out there.
I really don't know anyone thatat least doesn't respect him or
have a positive opinion abouttheir experiences with him.
Amy Bryant (01:20):
Yeah, he's, he's, he's a pretty incredible person.
I used to call him Mayor beforehe was actually the mayor. So
that's how impactful he is, andthe people that he meets, the
impressions that he makes. Sowe're talking about John
Shackelford, for anyone who iswondering, the athletic director
of the University of the Southand the mayor of Suwannee,
(01:43):
anyways, but today, let's we'retalking to Keenan hicken, who
was the golf coach at Emory fora few years. He was also a
standout golfer at EmoryUniversity, and is now the head
men's golf coach at theUniversity of the South. So
Keenan, to start off, why don'tyou tell us a little bit about
your journey to your positionthere, and please fill us in on
(02:04):
your youth sports journey allthe way up through college and
now to where you are.
Keenan Hickton (02:09):
Yeah, sure. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
and I have five brothers andsisters. I was a middle child
four out of six, and I was luckyto be a part of an athletics
family. So my dad played collegetennis. My mom was a college
swimmer. We all played a lot ofsports growing up, from swim
team to hockey to soccer,eventually I settled on
(02:31):
basketball and then golf. So Iplayed a ton of basketball from
like seventh grade throughjunior year of high school, and
was playing golf at the sametime, and was lucky to have an
athletic director and basketballgolf coach who really cared
about his students and theplayers he was coaching. So he
kind of directed me towards mylove of golf, which was rapidly
(02:52):
developing, and I think part ofthat was related to a career
ceiling in basketball, but Golfwas something that had just
gotten into sophomore, junioryear. So eventually that led to
me connecting with EmoryUniversity, as well as a ton of
other universities, and veryfortunate to find Emory. I don't
think I had a junior career ornumbers based on some of the
(03:15):
kids we've been recruiting overthe last five, six years at
Emory. It's really incredible,but I was fortunate where
Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh Golfwas just at a high level at the
time my junior and senior year.
So I was competing against somejunior golfers who ended up
going to Notre Dame and libertyand Penn State, and just being
able to play the sametournament, you know, have the
(03:36):
same scoreboard on the samecourse, and post some very
competitive results Coachschoberg, who obviously was an
influential figure in my life,was able to take a chance on me
with that. So one of the thingsI'm definitely passionate about
with recruiting is I am sojealous of how much juniors and
seniors in high school knowabout college sports now. Met
with Recruits this week, andthey know our Sewanee golf
(03:58):
schedule for next year. Theyknow our results for the season.
They come prepared with thenames of the best players on our
team. They know where I camefrom and how long I've been
here. And I mean, it's kind offunny to say I'm really
hopefully not that old, but 10years I did just get invited to
my 10 year high school reunion,so apparently I'm getting old,
(04:18):
but I had no idea what an Emorygolf schedule looked like. I
signed up kind of blindlybecause I loved Emory
University. I just walked aroundit and fell in love with the
school, and I knew that it was agood school. So if golf didn't
work out, the school would workout. But I had no idea that it
was going to fulfill so many ofthe things that I wanted it to
fulfill. I was so happy when Ifound out we had morning
(04:39):
workouts, and I was so happywhen I found out we played golf
six days a week and playedqualifying on the weekends and
traveled around the southeast toplay tournaments. And so happy
that the level of Golf was kindof a perfect level where I could
be a good player on the team,but also be incredibly
challenged when we hadoutstanding teammates or players
from other teams to competeagainst. So, you know, that's my
(05:01):
simple athletics career aftercollege coach COVID wife was
actually going to have a baby,and he asked me if I would be
the volunteer interim coach forour first tournament. At that
point, I think I'd been to 42straight Emory golf tournaments.
I kind of knew the drill andtook the team to a tournament. I
wasn't going to start my jobuntil January, so I took the
(05:22):
team to the first tournament,and we just had a really amazing
week. The team won the fallpreview, and just it was just
fun, very lucky that theybasically were able to figure
out how to have an assistantvolunteer assistant coach while
I was working. So I was a crazyperson who was working at a
consulting firm Monday throughFriday in Atlanta. And instead
(05:42):
of flying out on Saturday to dosomething other people might
consider more fun, I was flyingto wherever Emory Golf was
playing an event to be anassisting golf coach, because I
just loved it that much, andeffectively did that for four
and a half years. I mean, Iworked at a consulting firm from
January to 2019 through May of2023 before Emory made it a full
(06:03):
time assistant coachingposition, which is when I made a
crazier decision that was builton the love and passion for golf
and coaching to go be a fulltime assistant coach at Emory
and also teach private lessonsand in private coaching on the
side and leave the consultingfirm. So it's a decision I'm
very happy I made, obviously,but that was basically a year
(06:24):
and change of full timeassistant coaching, although it
certainly feels like I was afull time assistant coach for
five and a half, six years. ,
Amy Bryant (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, one of our previous guests on the show
is talking about how littlecoaches get paid, and the fact
that you were a volunteer coachfor four and a half years, it
sounds like and sometimesfulfilling head coaching
responsibilities without evergetting paid is just proof that
we as coaches, we don't do itfor the money. Y ou definitely,
no,
Keenan Hickton (06:53):
I don't think anyone necessarily doing these
roles for the money. I mean,there's certainly perks. I
definitely enjoyed some golf Ienjoyed some range balls that I
might not have been able to hitand and mostly, I mean, I just
love it. I mean, the the networkand connections I made, you
know, connecting, basically, Ifelt like I basically had nine
years of Emory teammatesstraight I had when I was a
(07:14):
freshman, I had seniors, juniorsand sophomores, and then we had
kids that started at Emory threeyears after I left, who I feel
like being each other's weddingsomeday or something. So I feel
like I was an Emory golferalmost for nine years. I really
got to benefit from that. But,yeah, absolutely. I mean, I
think it takes a certain type ofperson that's built for it, and
that has the desire to do theharder parts of things, where
(07:37):
maybe in a van ride on aTuesday, quite a late hour
coming from a quite a lonelycity, but it's not so lonely in
golf when you got friends andpeople that are chasing their
passion and dream together,
Amy Bryant (07:47):
wow. And so then from there you went and got
recruited to go to Suwannee.
Keenan Hickton (07:53):
Yeah, I really, you know, I really did not seek
it. It speaks to coach Shaq andJohn Shackleford, where he's
trying to make everything atSuwannee better. And we had a
really standout season the yearI was a full time assistant
coach at Emory, we had a teamthat finished third at the
National Championship, which wasactually the highest finish ever
for Emory men's golf. Andspecifically, we had one player
(08:17):
who was named the NationalPlayer of the Year and earned an
invitation to the Arnold PalmerCup team, which is a hugely
prestigious honor in the game ofgolf. So I would say the Emory
golf season maybe made its wayto some Google searches,
probably, which is how coachShackleford became interested
and in August. I mean, I wassuper excited to coach the Emory
(08:37):
team this fall. We have someseniors I really care about and
continue private coaching inAtlanta. But about August 5, or
something like that, CoachShackleford reached out and
through coach Browning tenniscoach at Emory, it's all very
interconnected. And just saw,does this person look look like
they're ready for a headcoaching job? Are you interested
(08:59):
in it? And I really didn't know.
I mean, I'd had some otheropportunities to do that, but
nothing really. The shoe neverfit exactly. But sawani Being
close enough, I suppose two anda half hours away. It's, it's
actually a pretty easy drive. Ijust figured it was at least
worth the trip to come up there.
And coach Shaq is a pretty goodrecruiter himself, I think, over
33 years so I was definitelyinterested at hello. I think the
(09:23):
major considerations were theyhave a nine hole, wonderful golf
course on campus that's a top 10ranked college golf course in
the country. They have phonesfor a good golf program. They
had built a decent golf programbefore. I had a lot of respect
for their previous two coaches,one of whom was a friend and was
definitely instrumental inrecommending me for the
position. And I would say I wasalso pretty aware of their
(09:47):
players. I mean, you becomepretty aware. I knew that we'd
played with them in the nationalchampionship last year, and I
definitely saw some potential.
So I'm spoiled. Maybe it didn'tfeel like I was going to start a
golf program from scratch. It'slike, wow, I'm only 29 years
old, and I get to be a firsthead coach, and I feel like I
have a team that could maybe winthe whole national championship.
(10:08):
What an opportunity.
Amy Bryant (10:11):
Well, yeah, I mean, you guys are right now ranked in
the top 10. Are you in the topfive too? Just about you
Keenan Hickton (10:16):
actually got to rank fifth at the end of the
fall, which is the highestranking in Suwannee golf
history. So we're really proudof it.
Amy Bryant (10:24):
That's great. Yeah, well, I'm so proud of you, too.
And yes, you might have walkedinto a little bit of that. You
got some players that you didn'thave to necessarily work for,
but to be able to groom them, tobe able to achieve what they've
achieved in such a short periodof time is testament to you and
your coaching skills, and I knowyou'll continue to groom your
(10:47):
coaching skills as you go. Youare young, but you are wise
beyond those years, for sure.
And the more you do, the betteryou'll get. And I'm excited to
watch your success there. So,yeah, absolutely. So as you
know, this podcast is reallylike the audience is really
parents and so to start our lineof questioning, why don't you
talk a little bit about yourrecruits there, now that you are
(11:09):
starting to recruit for yournext group of players, what are
you looking for? ,
Keenan Hickton (11:16):
Yeah, so specifically for players. I
mean, I'm I'm recruiting goodplayers, right? I mean, I think
the the most challenging part ofthis opportunity is I have done
a ton of recruiting myself atEmory and as a player. As a
sophomore, I was, hopefully Johnviewed me as the kid to bring to
have lunch with and do somerecruiting as a player. And then
(11:38):
six years certainly helping withrecruiting. But this year, I
mean, we were already donerecruiting when I left Emory for
the class of 2025 so I show upon August 30, and I have to make
offers for roster spots topeople I have never watched play
the game of golf, and I am not anumbers based person, but this
year, I kind of have to be. Andfortunately, there are some
(12:00):
people that do very hard workdeveloping numbers based
recruiting. So in golf, you haveJunior Golf scoreboard, and you
have something called Tugger toUGR. I actually don't know what
the acronym stands for, butthey, you know, they produce
rankings. You know, you're the50th ranked, 200th ranked, 200th
ranked player in the country.
And I do think they are greatindicators of success. I
basically studied our Emoryrecruits for 10 years, and you
(12:23):
can definitely draw a graph fromwhat their junior ranking was to
how likely they are to be an allAmerican or a successful player.
But there are certainly someanomalies in that, and I
certainly consider myself one ofthose. So I'm never going to
base too much of it on ranking,but this fall, I had to base it
on ranking if you want to getinto numbers. I mean, I think
(12:45):
players that are ranked in thetop 200 to 500 in a junior golf
scoreboard database often areready to play Division Three
golf upon arrival. But that's anever changing phase. And I
cannot emphasize enough how, howlittle I like being numbers
based on from a recruitingstandpoint, in terms of just
like personality and whatparents and coaches. You know,
(13:08):
I'm interested in seeing, firstof all, Sewanee is a fantastic
school similar to Emory. So Icertainly need to see a history
of academic success and academicdiscipline, that suggests that
the student is eligible to beearn admission to Sewanee
individually. I also look forgreat communicators. I mean, I
(13:29):
definitely base a lot of it onpersonality and communication. I
mean, I love players that arecommunicating effectively
directly to me about wherethey're playing, about what
scores they're shooting, aboutwhat they're working on with
their coach, maybe sending swingvideos. It's not everything, but
I like it. I think those aregoing to be players that are
(13:51):
going to be great communicatorswhen they're here on the team.
They're going to be people thatI can read and understand what
they're going through, peoplethat are going to be easier to
coach, hopefully, becauseapparently, they've been easier
to coach by parents orrecruiting service for how to
earn an invitation to playcollege golf. If I had to really
say one thing I look for, I amdefinitely specific. I don't
(14:11):
want to give the secret away, sosomeone fakes it the next time I
meet them on a recruit. But whenI meet with someone and they're
here, I'm basically analyzingtheir self confidence combined
with humility. It's weird to sayit may be like that, but I think
that golf is a very individualgame similar to tennis, for
(14:32):
sure. I definitely think that alot of good golfers and tennis
players carry themselves with acertain amount of self
confidence, and they have aconfidence and belief in their
abilities. So I certainlybelieve that someone that can
present their ability to playgolf, just in a conversation,
can tell me not everything, butperhaps a significant amount,
(14:55):
about their ability tocontribute to a division three
golf program, and then I reallycombine that with humility,
because certainly I don't thinkthose two things are mutually
exclusive. I know that you havesome really confident people
that may be borders, like Ericand cocky, and I just would
rather not have that in theSuwannee golf program, right? I
(15:16):
just think there's so much moreto college sports and building a
program. So I really veryspecifically seeking, when I
meet with someone, do they haveself confidence in their ability
to be a good golfer now and be agood golfer three years from
now? Are they someone that Iwould love to have in the locker
room because they carrythemselves with humility and
know that just because they wonthe tournament today doesn't
(15:36):
mean they're a better person orbetter human than someone else
on our team. I just think thoseare really high quality
characteristics in a futureSuwannee golfer.
Amy Bryant (15:48):
I love that. I really love that. I think you
know the word that comes to mindwhen you're talking about the
super confident athletes thatare out there is when I was
recruiting at Emory for thetennis team, I tried to stay
away from some of those kids. Ifthey didn't balance it out with
humility, we would call themdivas. We didn't want the Divas
(16:09):
on our team, so we tried reallyhard to stay away from those
kids and a diva being somebodythat that really put themselves
first and weren't able totransition to putting a team
first, which is not an easytask. When you're playing an
individual sport like golf ortennis, right? It's not easy to
suddenly start thinking about,wait a minute, we're playing as
a team here. I have to be withthese people every afternoon for
(16:32):
four years in a row, or I haveto support them in matches on
the weekends and tournaments.
And it's not easy for everyoneto think outside of themselves
when they haven't beenthroughout most of their junior
playing career. So yes, I lovehow you said balancing the
confidence of the humility. Ithink that's key. I love that
when you were saying that thereare some anomalies out there in
the recruiting process, and youdescribe yourself as one of
(16:55):
those anomalies because youdidn't have the ranking that
perhaps coach was looking forwhen somebody is that anomaly,
and you're willing to take achance on a kid that is the
anomaly. What? What is it aboutthem that would cause you to
take that chance? Because Italked to a lot of parents. I
talked to a lot of parents thatare like, you know, my kid
doesn't have the ranking, but Ireally know he's good enough, or
(17:16):
I really believe she's, youknow, strong enough to make that
program, that team, if she just,you know, worked a little harder
if she gets there, you know, shegets if the coach takes a
chance, she's going to be fine.
So what is it, what is it thatthey need to have? Yeah,
Keenan Hickton (17:29):
I think there's a number of things. First and
foremost, Golf is a prettyexpensive sport to get into. Not
a lot of people get into whenthey're five years old. Not a
lot of families can afford to gotravel around the country,
paying 1000s of dollars to playin these tournaments that are
required to get a ranking. Sothe first question I might sit
down, if someone has theconfidence to say, I'm the
(17:50):
anomaly, ignore the rankings.
It's okay. Well, why? Whydoesn't the ranking exist? And
you know, back to my point aboutconfidence, I really like when
people aren't scared of thatquestion. Well, I'll tell you
why it doesn't exist. It doesn'texist because I haven't played
in the junior golf tournaments.
It doesn't exist because I was abasketball player, soccer player
growing up. I definitely likewhen people or other sport
(18:12):
athletes converted to golf,because I think if you're a
baseball pitcher and you'vestood on the mound alone and had
to throw a ball down the strikezone, I mean, that's something
that you're effectively going tohave to do in golf if you were a
tennis player growing up. Someof the best golfers I had as
teammates at Emory were reallygood high school tennis players,
because they've played anindividual sport, one on one,
(18:33):
and they had the forehand andbackhand and serve to build a
stroke, which is a very similarthing that you're doing in golf.
And then, yes, certainly reallytalented basketball players and
lacrosse players that maybeplayed golf on vacation with
their family and were prettygood golfer and could shoot a
score on their own on Saturdaywith their dad. But yeah, it's a
very different thing of, can youplay a competitive tournament,
(18:56):
three rounds of golf in Alabama,or can you just play good on the
weekend on your home golfcourse. So number one is, why
doesn't the ranking exist? Areyou from Minnesota or New York,
and it's really cold outside forsix months of the year? Number
two, did you play other sportsand did you have did you handle
pressure? Competitive pressure?
Well, I mean, college sports canbe a really fragile, competitive
environment. It's challenging nomatter what sport you're playing
(19:20):
right now, especially at theDivision Three level, the level
is just increasing dramaticallyevery single year. We have
really talented, quality golfersthat 10 years ago might have
made wonderful golfers on theAmy or Suwannee golf teams, but
there are so many good players.
It's going to be a fragile andcompetitive environment, and
young people and attach so muchpersonal meaning to their
(19:43):
performance and ability that Ilike when someone played
basketball or soccer orlacrosse, and they've had to
face that and overcome thatbefore and handle pressure
effectively, and then the lastthing is just the skills. If I
go watch them play, I mean, dothey hit a serve, or do they hit
a drive at the same speed assomeone on my team right now. Do
(20:04):
they just totally lack thecoaching and awareness? Like, do
they hit great serves andforehands they just don't know
how to construct a point? Or dothey hit a great driver and a
great putt? They just, you know,why did they aim over there
towards the the out of boundsstake? So, you know, there's
little things, from a skillstandpoint, honestly, the most
important of any of thesethings, I would say, is the last
one, which is, do they havesomeone else in their area that
(20:27):
they know is committed toplaying golf at Cincinnati or
Notre Dame, maybe their highschool teammate? And I play with
them every day, and I know I canbeat them. And now Talk is
cheap, obviously, but frames ofreference, I think, are
extremely important, becauseranking is over time. Ranking is
tournaments that you'retraveling to. But is there a
frame of reference? I mean, Ican think of millions of example
(20:50):
in tennis where you have aplayer that they don't have a
ranking because they keep losingfirst round to someone who's
going to North Carolina orHarvard and, well, they can't
build a ranking because theylost in the first round, but
they lost 63675, to someonewho's getting to North Carolina.
And then the golf equivalent ofthat might be a recruit is one
of lacrosse and soccer statechampionship, and they literally
(21:10):
picked up golf as a sophomore,and they were like on the JV
team of their high school as asophomore, and now they're a
senior, and maybe in 10 of theirsenior year tournaments, three
times out of 10 they beat theirnumber one player who's been
committed to Cincinnati orKentucky for two years. And it's
like, well, wow, that's give mesomething. Give me like, some
(21:31):
piece of physical evidence ofyou played 18 holes against
someone that's going to go playin the big 12 or SEC or ACC, and
you were right there standingside by side, competitive with
them, that's something that Ifeel like, okay, we have some
Amy Bryant (21:43):
that makes sense.
It's funny that you use theevidence
example of playing somebody thatwent in Carolina, because there
was a player on my team at onepoint in time that she made it
all the way into a tournamentfor all the best players in
college tennis, and thatincludes d1, players, d2, player
d3, players and Naia and juniorcollege players. And wound up
(22:05):
playing a player from NorthCarolina who happened to be
ranked top 10 in the country, indivision one, and I think had
that same score, 6376, she lost.
You might know her name isYsabel Gonzales Rica.
Keenan Hickton (22:16):
There's a very specific score I happen to
remember, yeah, might have beenBrenda Graham. She was playing
against her.
Amy Bryant (22:23):
Yeah, so it's funny that you brought up that
example. But anyways, to getback to what you're saying, the
fragile and competitiveenvironment that our athletes
are exposed to, I think that'sreally something that we can
dive a little deeper in for ourparents, because as parents, we
are not with our child whenthey're in this fragile and
(22:43):
competitive environment. They'reat college. They're usually away
from home for college, andthey're experiencing all sorts
of new things, not just thestress of competing at a high
level against people from fromall over including Carolina,
perhaps, but they're competingalone and without the support of
their parents on the sidelines,and especially for an individual
(23:04):
sport that's really new forthem, and then they're
experiencing, obviously, thestress of school, the stress of
new social lives, the stress ofliving on their own, the stress
of the independence that they'refacing. So what do you think are
the most important things aparent can do to support their
child as they experience all ofthese stressors,
Keenan Hickton (23:22):
I think by far the most important thing parents
can focus on is finding a coachwho's results based, or sorry,
process based, not resultsbased, and committing as a
parent or family to be processbased over results based,
especially with the game ofgolf, because the game of golf
is very challenging. I knowplayers that I've played with
(23:45):
that have played professionalgolf after college, that have
gotten in a van and driven sixhours to a tournament and shot
8379 85 terrible golf scoresfinished in the bottom of a high
level Division Three event, andit is like the loneliest six
hour drive home, and that wasone bad result for someone I'm
(24:09):
thinking of specifically thathad a wonderful career and all
kinds of success. And that isgoing to happen in a college
golf career for sure, and it'sgoing to happen in a basketball
career and a volleyball careerand a tennis career. And best
thing a parent can do, and Ithink the best thing a coach can
(24:29):
do also, is demonstrate theawareness of we are defining a
process, and we will acknowledgethe results. And if the results
aren't existing for a longperiod of time. Maybe we need to
recreate the process a littlebit. But if we're committing to
a process that we think is goingto produce success over long
(24:49):
term as parents and as a supportnetwork, we really need to
commit to that together.
Because, I mean, I can think of1000s of examples, and when I
think of examples in my nineyears of having parents and
having teammates parents andhaving kids, I assistant coached
and their parents and kids I'mnow coaching and their parents.
I'm thinking of overwhelminglypositive examples. But certainly
(25:11):
there are, you know, somenegative examples where it's
like, we're gonna all go todinner, the five of us as a
team. And I always tell myplayers before we go to dinner,
I'm like, if your parents,especially the ones that are not
really college golfers orsomething themselves, dive way
too deeply into Hey, why did youmake that triple bogey on the
seventh hole today? Let's justreframe that question as a
(25:34):
positive and change the subjectsmoothly, because I never want
to be the coach that says noteam dinners in between
tournament rounds like these.
Parents are traveling toGreensboro, North Carolina,
sometimes to watch their childor their grandchild play, and I
want them to have dinner withus, and we should all have
dinner, and I want to get toknow them, and I want to build
(25:57):
these lasting relationships withplayers and families, but the
only way we can continue doingthat is if that dinner table
conversation is really processbased and not results based,
because it can't get too highand can't get too low, we can't
have we shot the first roundlead, and we have three more
rounds to play, and theconversation is like we're
popping imaginary champagne atthe table and celebrating The
(26:19):
amazing performance of the day.
And it certainly can't be theopposite, where we just shot the
12th play score out of 13 teamstoday, and maybe we did the very
best we could just, you know, wejust didn't get lucky. The wind
was blowing when we were hittingthe ball, or ball bounced in the
cup and went out of the cup. Imean, these things can happen.
And if we can really becommitted to a long term
process, I think that's reallyimportant. I can caveat it by
(26:41):
saying, yeah, if the result,there's a time to be results
based if your child is thehardest working kid, and
everybody can vouch for that,and they have committed to a
process with their Swing Coachand with their college golf
coach, and for two years, thejuice just hasn't been worth the
squeeze, and the results aren'tshowing, probably in the off
season, we need to think about anew Swing Coach, or we need to
(27:05):
think about why the process hasnot been working, but certainly
on a day to day, month to month,week to week basis, I think I
was very lucky to have parentsthat played college sports and
were very aware of that, Andjust because I three putted on
the first hole. It wasn't likelet's over react to one result
on a day of 72 holes of golf, ortournament of 72 holes of golf.
(27:28):
So I think I cannot say thatstrongly enough. I think the
best parents that support theircolleges athletics careers are
the ones that areunconditionally loving and
process based over results, overlong periods of time. It's
Amy Bryant (27:44):
great. I bet you didn't think that you would have
to be coaching the parents aswell as the players when you
came into this role.
Keenan Hickton (27:52):
It's a really fragile subject. I'm sure,
yeah, I'm sure a lot of coacheswill relate to that. I did think
that, I guess I would say justI've been become aware enough
for nine years, I've seen thatin different ways. Just witness
it with all programs. Probablythe most I've witnessed it,
honestly, was in junior sports.
I mean, that's where it actuallyeven shows, sometimes more than
college sports. In juniorbasketball, you know, I that's
(28:14):
probably the most extremeversions of that, where I
witnessed it, and that's theharshest time to me, because you
have someone that's coaching anAAU basketball team. And if you
think some coaches like yourselfand myself do it for the love of
the game, I mean, this personhas another job, and they are
going from their job to coacheighth graders on Tuesday night
(28:35):
for two hours, and then they'rein Ohio coaching seven games in
four days or something. Hence,parents are really in their ear
at kiddoba After the game aboutplaying time and things like
that. Just think that's such asuch a negative environment. And
obviously those are kids thatare 14 years old or 17 years
old, where they can really learnnegative things. Yeah.
Amy Bryant (28:57):
I mean, they're really at a vulnerable age, and
it's so important for parents toteach them that it's process
oriented then too, and for thekids to see their parents
treating their coaches properly,because they will emulate that
behavior as well. So there's somany lessons that can be taught
(29:17):
at that young age, and parentscan truly do it right. I would
love to hear. And this questionis always the most comfortable
question for my guest. Butwhat's like, the craziest thing
that you've seen a parent dowhere you're just like, oh my
god, textbook parenting 101,never do this to your poor
child, who is an athlete?
Keenan Hickton (29:37):
Yeah I'm not sure I can really think of one
specific great anecdote, I wouldprobably just double down on all
of the things I have seen havebasically could be tied directly
back towards being overreactiveto a short term result and
perhaps undermining years ofpreparation and coaching. I
mean, from a golf or from abasketball standpoint. I mean,
(29:59):
I've certainly seen parents justkeep it as a basketball
standpoint, because I'mobviously no one can tie this.
There's too many, there's toofew golfers on teams. Everybody
can tie back directly. But from,you know, early childhood
basketball days, I have playedfor coaches that are very
successful coaches. They havewon state championships. They've
(30:20):
won championships over 25 years,and I have seen parents that
know very little aboutbasketball like suggest their
kid run the play a differentway, and we're running a team
sport that's five playersagainst five players, and
because a parent that doesn'tknow anything about the sport to
(30:40):
not play it beyond a JVbasketball level. They have this
ingenious idea that their kidsshould take the shot on the
play. And we're playing for acoach that is historically Hall
of Fame, successful. And youcould basically repeat that
example and use volleyball orswimming or tennis terms. And,
(31:01):
you know, I think one thing Iwould add is people are so hard
on coaches, and I understandwhy. It's because they love
their kid and they want theirkid to have the best experience,
and they want their kid to winthe championship. And I
completely understand that, evensee it with hometown football
fans that are, like, really hardon their coach. And part of it's
just the fun of being a sportsfan, you get to beat up on the
(31:22):
coach. But I always really thinkit's funny when people are hard
on someone that maybe they arenot the best coach in the
country, but they have obviouslydistinguished themselves as a
well above average,distinguished coach. And I just
think that's so interesting tome sometimes, again, if you use
basketball or use golf, it'slike this. Coach has been
(31:43):
running top three or top five,division three programs for like
22 out of the last 25 years. Andmaybe they haven't won 22
national championships, becausethere's 280 teams trying to do
it every year, but they haveobviously distinguished
themselves as an A or an A minuscoach, and they're obviously
putting forth their very besteffort at their profession. And
(32:05):
people love their kids so muchthat they're so hard on this
coach. It's just so mesmerizing,because we would never do that
about a doctor lawyer who's the300th best doctor lawyer in the
city of Green Bay, Wisconsin, orsomething like that. It's just
like, wow, they're reallyexcellent at what they do. They
are not the greatest of alltime. Perhaps it's debatable,
(32:28):
but they have distinguishedthemselves as excellent at what
they do, and they are receivingvery unfair, harsh criticism and
the lack of trust in whatthey're doing over a long term.
So I would say, back to theoriginal example, parents at the
National Championship or at thestate championship, the biggest
event, a pressure, packed event,choosing to have a dinner table
(32:50):
conversation or a phone callconversation or text
conversation about a completechange of plans on the play, the
basketball play, so to speak,we've put years into the
success. We've put high schoolcoaches, individual coaches.
We've chosen the best collegewhere you get to play for the
best college coach. And just toremove it from golf and make it
a tennis example, again, it'slike, let's just play to her
(33:13):
backhand all day tomorrow. Eventhough it's like, why we've
never we haven't been doing thatfor 10 years. Why like now in
the most important event of myathletic wife, do you get to
decide we're going to change theplan because you saw something
yesterday?
Amy Bryant (33:26):
Because I know Ysa's backhand, yes, exactly,
Keenan Hickton (33:29):
very, very specific call out there.
Amy Bryant (33:33):
I'm going to leave that in, by the way, I'm hoping
to listen. She's had two shoutouts now i you. Thanks for
tuning in to today's play onpicking teams the playbook for
parents. It was fun to joke alittle bit about Issa today, a
former player of mine and aspecial friend to Keenan, as
(33:55):
well as hearing anotherexperience and accomplished
coaches insights, Keenan will beback again on the show soon to
share some more helpful tips forparents, remember to tell your
friends about us and send meyour questions by clicking the
Music. Welcome to picking teams. Thanks so much
(00:06):
for being here, Keenan. We'rereally glad to have you. And
congratulations on your newposition up at the University of
the South in Sewanee, Tennessee.
Is it in Sewanee, Tennessee?
That's the name of the town,right,
Keenan Hickton (00:18):
pretty much right in Sewanee, Tennessee,
yeah, it's two and a half hoursfrom Atlanta, an hour and a half
from Nashville, right in themiddle. Essentially, if you're
driving, you're gonna pass rightthrough it, and you got to go up
a mountain to get there, prettymuch at the top of the mountain.
Yeah. What I love about swan isthat the athletic director is
the mayor of Suwannee. He ispretty much one of the most
incredible people I've met sofar. I mean, I think you know
(00:40):
that already, 33 years coachingtennis, a very, wildly
successful tennis program here,and he just knows everybody
here. I mean, it's incredible towatch him work. He just knows
every single person here, and heknows how to move people. And
I'd say maybe the mostincredible thing about him is
(01:00):
there are so many people nowthat know him, former players,
former opposing players, formercoaches, athletic directors, and
Overwhelmingly, people will saypositive things about him. You
know, a lot of people, at leasthave a couple enemies out there.
I really don't know anyone thatat least doesn't respect him or
have a positive opinion abouttheir experiences with him.
Amy Bryant (01:20):
Yeah, he's, he's, he's a pretty incredible person.
I used to call him Mayor beforehe was actually the mayor. So
that's how impactful he is, andthe people that he meets, the
impressions that he makes. Sowe're talking about John
Shackelford, for anyone who iswondering, the athletic director
of the University of the Southand the mayor of Suwannee,
(01:43):
anyways, but today, let's we'retalking to Keenan hicken, who
was the golf coach at Emory fora few years. He was also a
standout golfer at EmoryUniversity, and is now the head
men's golf coach at theUniversity of the South. So
Keenan, to start off, why don'tyou tell us a little bit about
your journey to your positionthere, and please fill us in on
(02:04):
your youth sports journey allthe way up through college and
now to where you are.
Keenan Hickton (02:09):
Yeah, sure. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
and I have five brothers andsisters. I was a middle child
four out of six, and I was luckyto be a part of an athletics
family. So my dad played collegetennis. My mom was a college
swimmer. We all played a lot ofsports growing up, from swim
team to hockey to soccer,eventually I settled on
(02:31):
basketball and then golf. So Iplayed a ton of basketball from
like seventh grade throughjunior year of high school, and
was playing golf at the sametime, and was lucky to have an
athletic director and basketballgolf coach who really cared
about his students and theplayers he was coaching. So he
kind of directed me towards mylove of golf, which was rapidly
(02:52):
developing, and I think part ofthat was related to a career
ceiling in basketball, but Golfwas something that had just
gotten into sophomore, junioryear. So eventually that led to
me connecting with EmoryUniversity, as well as a ton of
other universities, and veryfortunate to find Emory. I don't
think I had a junior career ornumbers based on some of the
(03:15):
kids we've been recruiting overthe last five, six years at
Emory. It's really incredible,but I was fortunate where
Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh Golfwas just at a high level at the
time my junior and senior year.
So I was competing against somejunior golfers who ended up
going to Notre Dame and libertyand Penn State, and just being
able to play the sametournament, you know, have the
(03:36):
same scoreboard on the samecourse, and post some very
competitive results Coachschoberg, who obviously was an
influential figure in my life,was able to take a chance on me
with that. So one of the thingsI'm definitely passionate about
with recruiting is I am sojealous of how much juniors and
seniors in high school knowabout college sports now. Met
with Recruits this week, andthey know our Sewanee golf
(03:58):
schedule for next year. Theyknow our results for the season.
They come prepared with thenames of the best players on our
team. They know where I camefrom and how long I've been
here. And I mean, it's kind offunny to say I'm really
hopefully not that old, but 10years I did just get invited to
my 10 year high school reunion,so apparently I'm getting old,
(04:18):
but I had no idea what an Emorygolf schedule looked like. I
signed up kind of blindlybecause I loved Emory
University. I just walked aroundit and fell in love with the
school, and I knew that it was agood school. So if golf didn't
work out, the school would workout. But I had no idea that it
was going to fulfill so many ofthe things that I wanted it to
fulfill. I was so happy when Ifound out we had morning
(04:39):
workouts, and I was so happywhen I found out we played golf
six days a week and playedqualifying on the weekends and
traveled around the southeast toplay tournaments. And so happy
that the level of Golf was kindof a perfect level where I could
be a good player on the team,but also be incredibly
challenged when we hadoutstanding teammates or players
from other teams to competeagainst. So, you know, that's my
(05:01):
simple athletics career aftercollege coach COVID wife was
actually going to have a baby,and he asked me if I would be
the volunteer interim coach forour first tournament. At that
point, I think I'd been to 42straight Emory golf tournaments.
I kind of knew the drill andtook the team to a tournament. I
wasn't going to start my jobuntil January, so I took the
(05:22):
team to the first tournament,and we just had a really amazing
week. The team won the fallpreview, and just it was just
fun, very lucky that theybasically were able to figure
out how to have an assistantvolunteer assistant coach while
I was working. So I was a crazyperson who was working at a
consulting firm Monday throughFriday in Atlanta. And instead
(05:42):
of flying out on Saturday to dosomething other people might
consider more fun, I was flyingto wherever Emory Golf was
playing an event to be anassisting golf coach, because I
just loved it that much, andeffectively did that for four
and a half years. I mean, Iworked at a consulting firm from
January to 2019 through May of2023 before Emory made it a full
(06:03):
time assistant coachingposition, which is when I made a
crazier decision that was builton the love and passion for golf
and coaching to go be a fulltime assistant coach at Emory
and also teach private lessonsand in private coaching on the
side and leave the consultingfirm. So it's a decision I'm
very happy I made, obviously,but that was basically a year
(06:24):
and change of full timeassistant coaching, although it
certainly feels like I was afull time assistant coach for
five and a half, six years. ,
Amy Bryant (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, one of our previous guests on the show
is talking about how littlecoaches get paid, and the fact
that you were a volunteer coachfor four and a half years, it
sounds like and sometimesfulfilling head coaching
responsibilities without evergetting paid is just proof that
we as coaches, we don't do itfor the money. Y ou definitely,
no,
Keenan Hickton (06:53):
I don't think anyone necessarily doing these
roles for the money. I mean,there's certainly perks. I
definitely enjoyed some golf Ienjoyed some range balls that I
might not have been able to hitand and mostly, I mean, I just
love it. I mean, the the networkand connections I made, you
know, connecting, basically, Ifelt like I basically had nine
years of Emory teammatesstraight I had when I was a
(07:14):
freshman, I had seniors, juniorsand sophomores, and then we had
kids that started at Emory threeyears after I left, who I feel
like being each other's weddingsomeday or something. So I feel
like I was an Emory golferalmost for nine years. I really
got to benefit from that. But,yeah, absolutely. I mean, I
think it takes a certain type ofperson that's built for it, and
that has the desire to do theharder parts of things, where
(07:37):
maybe in a van ride on aTuesday, quite a late hour
coming from a quite a lonelycity, but it's not so lonely in
golf when you got friends andpeople that are chasing their
passion and dream together,
Amy Bryant (07:47):
wow. And so then from there you went and got
recruited to go to Suwannee.
Keenan Hickton (07:53):
Yeah, I really, you know, I really did not seek
it. It speaks to coach Shaq andJohn Shackleford, where he's
trying to make everything atSuwannee better. And we had a
really standout season the yearI was a full time assistant
coach at Emory, we had a teamthat finished third at the
National Championship, which wasactually the highest finish ever
for Emory men's golf. Andspecifically, we had one player
(08:17):
who was named the NationalPlayer of the Year and earned an
invitation to the Arnold PalmerCup team, which is a hugely
prestigious honor in the game ofgolf. So I would say the Emory
golf season maybe made its wayto some Google searches,
probably, which is how coachShackleford became interested
and in August. I mean, I wassuper excited to coach the Emory
(08:37):
team this fall. We have someseniors I really care about and
continue private coaching inAtlanta. But about August 5, or
something like that, CoachShackleford reached out and
through coach Browning tenniscoach at Emory, it's all very
interconnected. And just saw,does this person look look like
they're ready for a headcoaching job? Are you interested
(08:59):
in it? And I really didn't know.
I mean, I'd had some otheropportunities to do that, but
nothing really. The shoe neverfit exactly. But sawani Being
close enough, I suppose two anda half hours away. It's, it's
actually a pretty easy drive. Ijust figured it was at least
worth the trip to come up there.
And coach Shaq is a pretty goodrecruiter himself, I think, over
33 years so I was definitelyinterested at hello. I think the
(09:23):
major considerations were theyhave a nine hole, wonderful golf
course on campus that's a top 10ranked college golf course in
the country. They have phonesfor a good golf program. They
had built a decent golf programbefore. I had a lot of respect
for their previous two coaches,one of whom was a friend and was
definitely instrumental inrecommending me for the
position. And I would say I wasalso pretty aware of their
(09:47):
players. I mean, you becomepretty aware. I knew that we'd
played with them in the nationalchampionship last year, and I
definitely saw some potential.
So I'm spoiled. Maybe it didn'tfeel like I was going to start a
golf program from scratch. It'slike, wow, I'm only 29 years
old, and I get to be a firsthead coach, and I feel like I
have a team that could maybe winthe whole national championship.
(10:08):
What an opportunity.
Amy Bryant (10:11):
Well, yeah, I mean, you guys are right now ranked in
the top 10. Are you in the topfive too? Just about you
Keenan Hickton (10:16):
actually got to rank fifth at the end of the
fall, which is the highestranking in Suwannee golf
history. So we're really proudof it.
Amy Bryant (10:24):
That's great. Yeah, well, I'm so proud of you, too.
And yes, you might have walkedinto a little bit of that. You
got some players that you didn'thave to necessarily work for,
but to be able to groom them, tobe able to achieve what they've
achieved in such a short periodof time is testament to you and
your coaching skills, and I knowyou'll continue to groom your
(10:47):
coaching skills as you go. Youare young, but you are wise
beyond those years, for sure.
And the more you do, the betteryou'll get. And I'm excited to
watch your success there. So,yeah, absolutely. So as you
know, this podcast is reallylike the audience is really
parents and so to start our lineof questioning, why don't you
talk a little bit about yourrecruits there, now that you are
(11:09):
starting to recruit for yournext group of players, what are
you looking for? ,
Keenan Hickton (11:16):
Yeah, so specifically for players. I
mean, I'm I'm recruiting goodplayers, right? I mean, I think
the the most challenging part ofthis opportunity is I have done
a ton of recruiting myself atEmory and as a player. As a
sophomore, I was, hopefully Johnviewed me as the kid to bring to
have lunch with and do somerecruiting as a player. And then
(11:38):
six years certainly helping withrecruiting. But this year, I
mean, we were already donerecruiting when I left Emory for
the class of 2025 so I show upon August 30, and I have to make
offers for roster spots topeople I have never watched play
the game of golf, and I am not anumbers based person, but this
year, I kind of have to be. Andfortunately, there are some
(12:00):
people that do very hard workdeveloping numbers based
recruiting. So in golf, you haveJunior Golf scoreboard, and you
have something called Tugger toUGR. I actually don't know what
the acronym stands for, butthey, you know, they produce
rankings. You know, you're the50th ranked, 200th ranked, 200th
ranked player in the country.
And I do think they are greatindicators of success. I
basically studied our Emoryrecruits for 10 years, and you
(12:23):
can definitely draw a graph fromwhat their junior ranking was to
how likely they are to be an allAmerican or a successful player.
But there are certainly someanomalies in that, and I
certainly consider myself one ofthose. So I'm never going to
base too much of it on ranking,but this fall, I had to base it
on ranking if you want to getinto numbers. I mean, I think
(12:45):
players that are ranked in thetop 200 to 500 in a junior golf
scoreboard database often areready to play Division Three
golf upon arrival. But that's anever changing phase. And I
cannot emphasize enough how, howlittle I like being numbers
based on from a recruitingstandpoint, in terms of just
like personality and whatparents and coaches. You know,
(13:08):
I'm interested in seeing, firstof all, Sewanee is a fantastic
school similar to Emory. So Icertainly need to see a history
of academic success and academicdiscipline, that suggests that
the student is eligible to beearn admission to Sewanee
individually. I also look forgreat communicators. I mean, I
(13:29):
definitely base a lot of it onpersonality and communication. I
mean, I love players that arecommunicating effectively
directly to me about wherethey're playing, about what
scores they're shooting, aboutwhat they're working on with
their coach, maybe sending swingvideos. It's not everything, but
I like it. I think those aregoing to be players that are
(13:51):
going to be great communicatorswhen they're here on the team.
They're going to be people thatI can read and understand what
they're going through, peoplethat are going to be easier to
coach, hopefully, becauseapparently, they've been easier
to coach by parents orrecruiting service for how to
earn an invitation to playcollege golf. If I had to really
say one thing I look for, I amdefinitely specific. I don't
(14:11):
want to give the secret away, sosomeone fakes it the next time I
meet them on a recruit. But whenI meet with someone and they're
here, I'm basically analyzingtheir self confidence combined
with humility. It's weird to sayit may be like that, but I think
that golf is a very individualgame similar to tennis, for
(14:32):
sure. I definitely think that alot of good golfers and tennis
players carry themselves with acertain amount of self
confidence, and they have aconfidence and belief in their
abilities. So I certainlybelieve that someone that can
present their ability to playgolf, just in a conversation,
can tell me not everything, butperhaps a significant amount,
(14:55):
about their ability tocontribute to a division three
golf program, and then I reallycombine that with humility,
because certainly I don't thinkthose two things are mutually
exclusive. I know that you havesome really confident people
that may be borders, like Ericand cocky, and I just would
rather not have that in theSuwannee golf program, right? I
(15:16):
just think there's so much moreto college sports and building a
program. So I really veryspecifically seeking, when I
meet with someone, do they haveself confidence in their ability
to be a good golfer now and be agood golfer three years from
now? Are they someone that Iwould love to have in the locker
room because they carrythemselves with humility and
know that just because they wonthe tournament today doesn't
(15:36):
mean they're a better person orbetter human than someone else
on our team. I just think thoseare really high quality
characteristics in a futureSuwannee golfer.
Amy Bryant (15:48):
I love that. I really love that. I think you
know the word that comes to mindwhen you're talking about the
super confident athletes thatare out there is when I was
recruiting at Emory for thetennis team, I tried to stay
away from some of those kids. Ifthey didn't balance it out with
humility, we would call themdivas. We didn't want the Divas
(16:09):
on our team, so we tried reallyhard to stay away from those
kids and a diva being somebodythat that really put themselves
first and weren't able totransition to putting a team
first, which is not an easytask. When you're playing an
individual sport like golf ortennis, right? It's not easy to
suddenly start thinking about,wait a minute, we're playing as
a team here. I have to be withthese people every afternoon for
(16:32):
four years in a row, or I haveto support them in matches on
the weekends and tournaments.
And it's not easy for everyoneto think outside of themselves
when they haven't beenthroughout most of their junior
playing career. So yes, I lovehow you said balancing the
confidence of the humility. Ithink that's key. I love that
when you were saying that thereare some anomalies out there in
the recruiting process, and youdescribe yourself as one of
(16:55):
those anomalies because youdidn't have the ranking that
perhaps coach was looking forwhen somebody is that anomaly,
and you're willing to take achance on a kid that is the
anomaly. What? What is it aboutthem that would cause you to
take that chance? Because Italked to a lot of parents. I
talked to a lot of parents thatare like, you know, my kid
doesn't have the ranking, but Ireally know he's good enough, or
(17:16):
I really believe she's, youknow, strong enough to make that
program, that team, if she just,you know, worked a little harder
if she gets there, you know, shegets if the coach takes a
chance, she's going to be fine.
So what is it, what is it thatthey need to have? Yeah,
Keenan Hickton (17:29):
I think there's a number of things. First and
foremost, Golf is a prettyexpensive sport to get into. Not
a lot of people get into whenthey're five years old. Not a
lot of families can afford to gotravel around the country,
paying 1000s of dollars to playin these tournaments that are
required to get a ranking. Sothe first question I might sit
down, if someone has theconfidence to say, I'm the
(17:50):
anomaly, ignore the rankings.
It's okay. Well, why? Whydoesn't the ranking exist? And
you know, back to my point aboutconfidence, I really like when
people aren't scared of thatquestion. Well, I'll tell you
why it doesn't exist. It doesn'texist because I haven't played
in the junior golf tournaments.
It doesn't exist because I was abasketball player, soccer player
growing up. I definitely likewhen people or other sport
(18:12):
athletes converted to golf,because I think if you're a
baseball pitcher and you'vestood on the mound alone and had
to throw a ball down the strikezone, I mean, that's something
that you're effectively going tohave to do in golf if you were a
tennis player growing up. Someof the best golfers I had as
teammates at Emory were reallygood high school tennis players,
because they've played anindividual sport, one on one,
(18:33):
and they had the forehand andbackhand and serve to build a
stroke, which is a very similarthing that you're doing in golf.
And then, yes, certainly reallytalented basketball players and
lacrosse players that maybeplayed golf on vacation with
their family and were prettygood golfer and could shoot a
score on their own on Saturdaywith their dad. But yeah, it's a
very different thing of, can youplay a competitive tournament,
(18:56):
three rounds of golf in Alabama,or can you just play good on the
weekend on your home golfcourse. So number one is, why
doesn't the ranking exist? Areyou from Minnesota or New York,
and it's really cold outside forsix months of the year? Number
two, did you play other sportsand did you have did you handle
pressure? Competitive pressure?
Well, I mean, college sports canbe a really fragile, competitive
environment. It's challenging nomatter what sport you're playing
(19:20):
right now, especially at theDivision Three level, the level
is just increasing dramaticallyevery single year. We have
really talented, quality golfersthat 10 years ago might have
made wonderful golfers on theAmy or Suwannee golf teams, but
there are so many good players.
It's going to be a fragile andcompetitive environment, and
young people and attach so muchpersonal meaning to their
(19:43):
performance and ability that Ilike when someone played
basketball or soccer orlacrosse, and they've had to
face that and overcome thatbefore and handle pressure
effectively, and then the lastthing is just the skills. If I
go watch them play, I mean, dothey hit a serve, or do they hit
a drive at the same speed assomeone on my team right now. Do
(20:04):
they just totally lack thecoaching and awareness? Like, do
they hit great serves andforehands they just don't know
how to construct a point? Or dothey hit a great driver and a
great putt? They just, you know,why did they aim over there
towards the the out of boundsstake? So, you know, there's
little things, from a skillstandpoint, honestly, the most
important of any of thesethings, I would say, is the last
one, which is, do they havesomeone else in their area that
(20:27):
they know is committed toplaying golf at Cincinnati or
Notre Dame, maybe their highschool teammate? And I play with
them every day, and I know I canbeat them. And now Talk is
cheap, obviously, but frames ofreference, I think, are
extremely important, becauseranking is over time. Ranking is
tournaments that you'retraveling to. But is there a
frame of reference? I mean, Ican think of millions of example
(20:50):
in tennis where you have aplayer that they don't have a
ranking because they keep losingfirst round to someone who's
going to North Carolina orHarvard and, well, they can't
build a ranking because theylost in the first round, but
they lost 63675, to someonewho's getting to North Carolina.
And then the golf equivalent ofthat might be a recruit is one
of lacrosse and soccer statechampionship, and they literally
(21:10):
picked up golf as a sophomore,and they were like on the JV
team of their high school as asophomore, and now they're a
senior, and maybe in 10 of theirsenior year tournaments, three
times out of 10 they beat theirnumber one player who's been
committed to Cincinnati orKentucky for two years. And it's
like, well, wow, that's give mesomething. Give me like, some
(21:31):
piece of physical evidence ofyou played 18 holes against
someone that's going to go playin the big 12 or SEC or ACC, and
you were right there standingside by side, competitive with
them, that's something that Ifeel like, okay, we have some
Amy Bryant (21:43):
that makes sense.
It's funny that you use theevidence
example of playing somebody thatwent in Carolina, because there
was a player on my team at onepoint in time that she made it
all the way into a tournamentfor all the best players in
college tennis, and thatincludes d1, players, d2, player
d3, players and Naia and juniorcollege players. And wound up
(22:05):
playing a player from NorthCarolina who happened to be
ranked top 10 in the country, indivision one, and I think had
that same score, 6376, she lost.
You might know her name isYsabel Gonzales Rica.
Keenan Hickton (22:16):
There's a very specific score I happen to
remember, yeah, might have beenBrenda Graham. She was playing
against her.
Amy Bryant (22:23):
Yeah, so it's funny that you brought up that
example. But anyways, to getback to what you're saying, the
fragile and competitiveenvironment that our athletes
are exposed to, I think that'sreally something that we can
dive a little deeper in for ourparents, because as parents, we
are not with our child whenthey're in this fragile and
(22:43):
competitive environment. They'reat college. They're usually away
from home for college, andthey're experiencing all sorts
of new things, not just thestress of competing at a high
level against people from fromall over including Carolina,
perhaps, but they're competingalone and without the support of
their parents on the sidelines,and especially for an individual
(23:04):
sport that's really new forthem, and then they're
experiencing, obviously, thestress of school, the stress of
new social lives, the stress ofliving on their own, the stress
of the independence that they'refacing. So what do you think are
the most important things aparent can do to support their
child as they experience all ofthese stressors,
Keenan Hickton (23:22):
I think by far the most important thing parents
can focus on is finding a coachwho's results based, or sorry,
process based, not resultsbased, and committing as a
parent or family to be processbased over results based,
especially with the game ofgolf, because the game of golf
is very challenging. I knowplayers that I've played with
(23:45):
that have played professionalgolf after college, that have
gotten in a van and driven sixhours to a tournament and shot
8379 85 terrible golf scoresfinished in the bottom of a high
level Division Three event, andit is like the loneliest six
hour drive home, and that wasone bad result for someone I'm
(24:09):
thinking of specifically thathad a wonderful career and all
kinds of success. And that isgoing to happen in a college
golf career for sure, and it'sgoing to happen in a basketball
career and a volleyball careerand a tennis career. And best
thing a parent can do, and Ithink the best thing a coach can
(24:29):
do also, is demonstrate theawareness of we are defining a
process, and we will acknowledgethe results. And if the results
aren't existing for a longperiod of time. Maybe we need to
recreate the process a littlebit. But if we're committing to
a process that we think is goingto produce success over long
(24:49):
term as parents and as a supportnetwork, we really need to
commit to that together.
Because, I mean, I can think of1000s of examples, and when I
think of examples in my nineyears of having parents and
having teammates parents andhaving kids, I assistant coached
and their parents and kids I'mnow coaching and their parents.
I'm thinking of overwhelminglypositive examples. But certainly
(25:11):
there are, you know, somenegative examples where it's
like, we're gonna all go todinner, the five of us as a
team. And I always tell myplayers before we go to dinner,
I'm like, if your parents,especially the ones that are not
really college golfers orsomething themselves, dive way
too deeply into Hey, why did youmake that triple bogey on the
seventh hole today? Let's justreframe that question as a
(25:34):
positive and change the subjectsmoothly, because I never want
to be the coach that says noteam dinners in between
tournament rounds like these.
Parents are traveling toGreensboro, North Carolina,
sometimes to watch their childor their grandchild play, and I
want them to have dinner withus, and we should all have
dinner, and I want to get toknow them, and I want to build
(25:57):
these lasting relationships withplayers and families, but the
only way we can continue doingthat is if that dinner table
conversation is really processbased and not results based,
because it can't get too highand can't get too low, we can't
have we shot the first roundlead, and we have three more
rounds to play, and theconversation is like we're
popping imaginary champagne atthe table and celebrating The
(26:19):
amazing performance of the day.
And it certainly can't be theopposite, where we just shot the
12th play score out of 13 teamstoday, and maybe we did the very
best we could just, you know, wejust didn't get lucky. The wind
was blowing when we were hittingthe ball, or ball bounced in the
cup and went out of the cup. Imean, these things can happen.
And if we can really becommitted to a long term
process, I think that's reallyimportant. I can caveat it by
(26:41):
saying, yeah, if the result,there's a time to be results
based if your child is thehardest working kid, and
everybody can vouch for that,and they have committed to a
process with their Swing Coachand with their college golf
coach, and for two years, thejuice just hasn't been worth the
squeeze, and the results aren'tshowing, probably in the off
season, we need to think about anew Swing Coach, or we need to
(27:05):
think about why the process hasnot been working, but certainly
on a day to day, month to month,week to week basis, I think I
was very lucky to have parentsthat played college sports and
were very aware of that, Andjust because I three putted on
the first hole. It wasn't likelet's over react to one result
on a day of 72 holes of golf, ortournament of 72 holes of golf.
(27:28):
So I think I cannot say thatstrongly enough. I think the
best parents that support theircolleges athletics careers are
the ones that areunconditionally loving and
process based over results, overlong periods of time. It's
Amy Bryant (27:44):
great. I bet you didn't think that you would have
to be coaching the parents aswell as the players when you
came into this role.
Keenan Hickton (27:52):
It's a really fragile subject. I'm sure,
yeah, I'm sure a lot of coacheswill relate to that. I did think
that, I guess I would say justI've been become aware enough
for nine years, I've seen thatin different ways. Just witness
it with all programs. Probablythe most I've witnessed it,
honestly, was in junior sports.
I mean, that's where it actuallyeven shows, sometimes more than
college sports. In juniorbasketball, you know, I that's
(28:14):
probably the most extremeversions of that, where I
witnessed it, and that's theharshest time to me, because you
have someone that's coaching anAAU basketball team. And if you
think some coaches like yourselfand myself do it for the love of
the game, I mean, this personhas another job, and they are
going from their job to coacheighth graders on Tuesday night
(28:35):
for two hours, and then they'rein Ohio coaching seven games in
four days or something. Hence,parents are really in their ear
at kiddoba After the game aboutplaying time and things like
that. Just think that's such asuch a negative environment. And
obviously those are kids thatare 14 years old or 17 years
old, where they can really learnnegative things. Yeah.
Amy Bryant (28:57):
I mean, they're really at a vulnerable age, and
it's so important for parents toteach them that it's process
oriented then too, and for thekids to see their parents
treating their coaches properly,because they will emulate that
behavior as well. So there's somany lessons that can be taught
(29:17):
at that young age, and parentscan truly do it right. I would
love to hear. And this questionis always the most comfortable
question for my guest. Butwhat's like, the craziest thing
that you've seen a parent dowhere you're just like, oh my
god, textbook parenting 101,never do this to your poor
child, who is an athlete?
Keenan Hickton (29:37):
Yeah I'm not sure I can really think of one
specific great anecdote, I wouldprobably just double down on all
of the things I have seen havebasically could be tied directly
back towards being overreactiveto a short term result and
perhaps undermining years ofpreparation and coaching. I
mean, from a golf or from abasketball standpoint. I mean,
(29:59):
I've certainly seen parents justkeep it as a basketball
standpoint, because I'mobviously no one can tie this.
There's too many, there's toofew golfers on teams. Everybody
can tie back directly. But from,you know, early childhood
basketball days, I have playedfor coaches that are very
successful coaches. They havewon state championships. They've
(30:20):
won championships over 25 years,and I have seen parents that
know very little aboutbasketball like suggest their
kid run the play a differentway, and we're running a team
sport that's five playersagainst five players, and
because a parent that doesn'tknow anything about the sport to
(30:40):
not play it beyond a JVbasketball level. They have this
ingenious idea that their kidsshould take the shot on the
play. And we're playing for acoach that is historically Hall
of Fame, successful. And youcould basically repeat that
example and use volleyball orswimming or tennis terms. And,
(31:01):
you know, I think one thing Iwould add is people are so hard
on coaches, and I understandwhy. It's because they love
their kid and they want theirkid to have the best experience,
and they want their kid to winthe championship. And I
completely understand that, evensee it with hometown football
fans that are, like, really hardon their coach. And part of it's
just the fun of being a sportsfan, you get to beat up on the
(31:22):
coach. But I always really thinkit's funny when people are hard
on someone that maybe they arenot the best coach in the
country, but they have obviouslydistinguished themselves as a
well above average,distinguished coach. And I just
think that's so interesting tome sometimes, again, if you use
basketball or use golf, it'slike this. Coach has been
(31:43):
running top three or top five,division three programs for like
22 out of the last 25 years. Andmaybe they haven't won 22
national championships, becausethere's 280 teams trying to do
it every year, but they haveobviously distinguished
themselves as an A or an A minuscoach, and they're obviously
putting forth their very besteffort at their profession. And
(32:05):
people love their kids so muchthat they're so hard on this
coach. It's just so mesmerizing,because we would never do that
about a doctor lawyer who's the300th best doctor lawyer in the
city of Green Bay, Wisconsin, orsomething like that. It's just
like, wow, they're reallyexcellent at what they do. They
are not the greatest of alltime. Perhaps it's debatable,
(32:28):
but they have distinguishedthemselves as excellent at what
they do, and they are receivingvery unfair, harsh criticism and
the lack of trust in whatthey're doing over a long term.
So I would say, back to theoriginal example, parents at the
National Championship or at thestate championship, the biggest
event, a pressure, packed event,choosing to have a dinner table
(32:50):
conversation or a phone callconversation or text
conversation about a completechange of plans on the play, the
basketball play, so to speak,we've put years into the
success. We've put high schoolcoaches, individual coaches.
We've chosen the best collegewhere you get to play for the
best college coach. And just toremove it from golf and make it
a tennis example, again, it'slike, let's just play to her
(33:13):
backhand all day tomorrow. Eventhough it's like, why we've
never we haven't been doing thatfor 10 years. Why like now in
the most important event of myathletic wife, do you get to
decide we're going to change theplan because you saw something
yesterday?
Amy Bryant (33:26):
Because I know Ysa's backhand, yes, exactly,
Keenan Hickton (33:29):
very, very specific call out there.
Amy Bryant (33:33):
I'm going to leave that in, by the way, I'm hoping
to listen. She's had two shoutouts now i you. Thanks for
tuning in to today's play onpicking teams the playbook for
parents. It was fun to joke alittle bit about Issa today, a
former player of mine and aspecial friend to Keenan, as
(33:55):
well as hearing anotherexperience and accomplished
coaches insights, Keenan will beback again on the show soon to
share some more helpful tips forparents, remember to tell your
friends about us and send meyour questions by clicking the
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