September 15, 2025 • 41 mins
Sales expert Ash Khalek reveals how to identify and address the emotional factors driving buyer decisions that exist "below the waterline." His approach distinguishes between the logical elements prospects discuss openly and the personal motivations that actually move deals forward.
• Pipeline coverage at quarter start often looks promising but deals stall without addressing emotional drivers
• The "waterline concept" separates visible logical buying factors from hidden emotional motivations
• After identifying business problems, ask "what would it mean for you personally?" then wait ten seconds
• Strong rapport must be established before prospects will reveal their true personal motivations
• Sales leaders should coach teams to listen for subtle cues that reveal emotional drivers
• Role-playing with teams helps develop skills in uncovering below-the-waterline buying factors
• Differentiating yourself from competitors means addressing both logical and emotional aspects
• People buy emotionally first, then justify logically with features and specifications
• Consistent sales success comes from genuine desire to help solve both business and personal challenges
Music by Ben Cina & Ayler Young
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
Pillar Talk, where we build thefoundations of sales leadership
success and try to createclarity in terms of what good
looks like for current andaspiring sales leaders.
Before we jump in, I like toreview the six pillars of
successful sales leadership.
It starts with talentidentification and attraction.
(00:38):
Obviously, building the rightteam is critical to having that
success, and both attraction andidentification are difficult.
Hold on, I'm going to back up.
Before we jump in, let's reviewthe six pillars of successful
sales leadership.
It starts with talentidentification and attraction.
Both are extremely difficult.
Operating rhythm that's theenvironment that fosters
(01:01):
motivation, engagement andaccountability.
Business planning, workingcross-functionally to play
offense and plan for the futurerather than reacting to things
that happen to you.
Which things do happen.
And mastering the craft wherethe best leaders know how to
help the team win.
That's tactical as much as itis strategic.
And then communication andownership, and those take a
(01:23):
variety of forms but becomecritical in our journey to being
successful sales leaders.
Today I am excited to have onPillar Talk Ash Colick.
Ash is a scaling advisor basedin Australia and before sort of
being a scaling advisor andhelping founders grow their
business, ash had an extendedcareer in the deep trenches of
(01:44):
enterprise sales and has hadmany demanding leadership roles.
For example, ash lasted over 10years at Oracle during the
2000s, at the beginning of thiscentury and at a time when the
reputation in the sales orgthere was, I'll say, darwinian,
to put it mildly.
Ash has also had leadershiproles at Intralinks, where our
(02:07):
paths has crossed, and did oversix years at FIS, a big global,
leading financial technologycompany.
Ash has lived leadership atcompanies large and small.
So, ash, I am superappreciative of you being with
us today.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Thanks, rick, and yes , I think we used to manage or
we used to talk about our lengthof stay at Oracle in number of
quarters, I think I got up to 43.
So that was an achievement.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I believe it.
Some of the stories that youshared were it's tough.
You had to deliver, and part ofme appreciates that, and part
of me is stressed out by some ofthose stories as well.
That and part of me is stressedout by some of those stories as
well.
Ash, you may not remember this,but you provided formative
coaching in my own leadershipjourney.
I was working and living in HongKong.
I had been there for over ayear and I was delighted that
(02:57):
you had joined.
You were someone that was likefrom that side of the hemisphere
.
All the work that I had beendoing at the time, I had fearful
that if I was to leave, whatwould happen, and so when a real
leader came in, that wassomebody that wasn't going to be
moving to the other hemisphere.
It was a big relief and I wasvery excited, and so maybe I
wanted to show off a little bit.
(03:17):
I'm not really sure, but whenyou first joined, I wanted to
demonstrate how difficult it wasto communicate back with HQ,
which was 12 time zones away,and I don't remember the exact
context, but I sent probably asmart Alec email back to finance
around some really difficultissue that we had at the time
and I remember the next day webarely knew each other.
(03:37):
You sat me down and you saidRick, is it OK if I gave you
some feedback?
And I said sure.
And you said Rick, I got to saythat behavior that I saw in
that email demonstrated thatyou're not acting as a senior
leader.
And then the room just satsilent for a minute.
As a high performer I wasn'tused to getting challenging
feedback around what I was doingor not doing.
(03:59):
But, man, I appreciated it.
I sort of sat on that and Ifeel like I really learned from
it.
So thank you, ash.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well and look, I think both ways, because I think
you were receptive to the wholeidea of making improvements.
But I think it's reallyimportant to be quite honest
with people in terms of whenthey're doing great, but also
when there's an area forimprovement, and I think kudos
to you for running with it andmaking really some fundamental
(04:29):
changes that I think haveprobably held you in great stead
going forward in your career.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, we just don't see a lot of like direct, honest
feedback happen as much as itshould.
There's books written about itand all that, but I do.
It stands out to me as like aformative moment where I wasn't
doing something right.
Somebody pointed it out withconstructive intent to help me
be better, so really, reallyappreciated it.
So it's great to see you.
I'm really glad that you'rewith us.
I've seen you become moreactive on social media lately.
(04:57):
What's got you excited thesedays?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, I think, based on seeing so many sales leaders
struggle with their pipeline,one of the things that I
remember in my days was thatyou'd focus on the hygiene
factors of the pipeline and atthe beginning of the quarter
everything looked great.
You'd have all the happy news,the happy ears, forecasts were
(05:26):
looking strong.
But then as the quarterprogressed, you get to the stage
where basically, deals werestarting to stall and you also,
obviously, your forecasts werestarting to slip and inevitably
you'd go to your one or two bigtop reps and say can you do
something just to get me overthe line for the quarter.
So I think that whole area I'veseen repeat time and time again
(05:50):
and it got me thinking well,there's got to be a better way.
And what really struck me waswhen I realised that a lot of
times deals are actuallystalling because we're
addressing what the customer'sasking for in turn.
But they're actually logicalelements.
I like to think of it like abit of an iceberg.
(06:13):
So if you think of what acustomer asks for in terms of
the features, benefits, casestudies, the experience of the
team, think of the tip of theiceberg and what's above the
waterline, that's all logicalstuff.
But what really happens andwhat moves deals is what happens
(06:33):
underneath the waterline.
So that's where the client, thebuyer, is under certain
pressure.
Things that really matter tothem, they all sit under that
waterline and the stuff thatthey feel that never say aloud,
they all sit there.
So the idea is, as a, I guess,from a leadership point of view,
(06:58):
to coach your team to uncoverthose emotional factors or,
below the waterline, tocomplement.
So I'll give you an examplethis is a personal example where
I was looking to buy one ofthose fancy pizza ovens for the
backyard and on the surface itwas really all about cooking the
(07:21):
best pizza.
But when I sat down and, youknow, looking at forking out a
few bucks for it, I realised thereal reason I wanted that pizza
oven was so that I could have alot of friends around all
having a great time and thinkingthat Ash is a kick-ass pizza
maker.
And that's really thedifference between.
(07:44):
You know, above the line iskind of above the water line, is
all about the best pizza, butreally the emotional driver was
below the waterline.
And so that's the stuff thatsort of I'm trying to help
leaders coach their teams toidentify in their sales cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I love that.
I mean, I can completelypicture and connect with the
concept that it's the beginningof the quarter.
You're looking at metrics likepipeline coverage.
You're seeing, okay, we havetwo times, four times coverage.
We're feeling good.
There's a long list ofopportunities.
We need to make sure theirpipeline hygiene is a thing.
We need things during the rightstage.
We have to make sure it's theright dollar amount.
(08:24):
And as the quarter progressesand inevitably the pipeline
starts to stall and the coveragestarts to go down.
And then you look for the heroto say how are we going to get
out of this thing, what are thekey deals?
And it becomes a bit more of ascramble.
So the idea of like, as we gofurther than just the surface
layer of the pipeline, how do wehelp our sellers or coach or
(08:47):
lead a team to look beyond justthe technical requirements?
Right, I love the pizza analogy.
It's not just about the heat ofthe oven, it's about you know
what's going to happen on theother side around it.
And so I guess it goes intowhat are some of the tactical
advice or some of the tacticsthat you are seeing that is
working to help, Because it'seasier said than done to find
(09:10):
emotional resonance.
It can be difficult to be.
You know some of.
We talk about buildingcredibility, establishing trust,
being the trusted advisor,being consultative and not
making it about your product butmaking it more about the
customer.
What are you seeing that'sworking to sort of identify the
below the waterline?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So, firstly, how do you identify?
You have a problem there, and Ithink we've all been in that
situation where we havesubmitted what we think is the
perfect proposal.
Right, it's hitting the mark interms of what the client has
asked for.
You know we've got the rightfunctions, features, we're
addressing their business needs.
You know we've got everythingsorted out in terms of the team
(09:54):
and so forth, but the dealstalls and therefore it's about
identifying the stuff under thewaterline.
So this way I think of this isthink of your typical coaching
or sorry, discovery process.
When you're going throughdiscovery, you'll identify the
client's business problems.
(10:15):
Most people will jot that downand then move on.
What I suggest people do assales leaders in terms of
coaching is get the person tothen say firstly, what if you
were able to overcome these sortof problems?
So move your prospect into likea future state.
(10:35):
Then ask so what would mean tothe business if you actually
achieved overcoming theseproblems?
And here's the killer line.
You then say what would it meanfor you?
And you're gonna pause tenseconds.
Just take up the silence.
(10:56):
That's where the buyer willthen start to talk about what it
means for them.
You're're now below thatwaterline.
They're talking about the painpoints, the things that really
matter to them, and the trick isaddress those as well as what's
above the waterline.
(11:16):
Does that make?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
sense.
It makes great sense, would yousay, that the future state and
the impact of the business andall the stuff that we teach in
value selling is a little bitmore of the above.
The waterline and the emotionalsort of how it impacts the
individual you're working withdirectly is the stuff that's the
good stuff below.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Correct, and so it's a matter of building on what
we've, I guess, been doing inthe past.
As I say, most people will gothrough the discovery, identify
all the problems but not drilldown into what is the
implication, what's theconsequence of achieving or not
achieving, overcoming thoseproblems.
And you can do it at two levels.
(11:55):
One is impact on the business,but the really key thing is so
what does it mean for you?
And you just pause, that isgold when people kind of when
the client just thinks and youcan see it in their eyes.
The other thing that helps isto take a positive stance.
So you know in terms of theproblems, then say, in terms of
(12:17):
you know overcoming them, whatdoes that mean for the business?
And so you're getting peopleinto that positive state.
And then again, what does itmean for you personally?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So what I'm hearing you describe is personalizing
selling, and it is anon-intuitive aspect for a
salesperson that's focused on abusiness problem or a business
opportunity and wants to educate, based on our capabilities to
meet that need, to sort of moveto the side of that and get into
(12:47):
, sometimes, the life aspect ofthe individual on the other side
, because what it means for thempersonally is often got
something to do with their.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
You know, it could be their professional life, but it
could be things outside of thatas well it is, and you're not
going to get to that spot unlessright at the start of the
discovery you have built.
Rapport and I think of rapportas nothing more than trust, and
that's about valuing the valuesof the person you're talking
with and you know not judgingwhat they're saying, but you
(13:19):
know at least saying to themyeah, I understand where you're
at.
You can then move into thediscovery phase, ask all the
normal questions about.
You know what they want toachieve all that, but because
you've got that rapport built,it allows you then to be able to
go through and then ask whatdoes it mean for you?
Now it doesn't.
(13:39):
You know the answer, so I'llgive you some examples.
I was talking, I remember, earlyon talking with a CIO who was
running a number of different orhis clients were six different
business units, and he said thisstatement in the discussion I
(14:02):
wish that businesses would takeownership of innovation rather
than leaving it to IT.
Now, when I drilled down in thatand understood, what came out
is that he was actuallyfrustrated that IT was being
seen as a cost center, anorganization that just delivers,
(14:24):
but not a thought leader or aninnovator.
So what you know, what thathelped me understand, is that I
needed to show how he can bepositioned within the
organization as a thought leader, a change agent, obviously
within the IT role.
That not only closed the deal,but it closed the deal because,
(14:49):
from a competitive point of view, everyone else was talking
above the line.
They were talking about howgood their functions and
features were, roi, correct,correct, right.
And this is the interestingthing when you make an offer,
you need to address both abovethe waterline and below the
waterline.
The reality is, a buyer willmake a decision based on below
(15:14):
the waterline, but they willjustify it 100%.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I love the framing of this.
Let me just ask a tacticalquestion related.
You painted the picture of afuture state.
Where and how would that affectthe individual which has the
positive connotations?
Of good things that happen tothem.
Often we hear that people don'ttake action typically unless
it's addressing pain right, like, for example, I only go to the
doctor when it's like my leg'sabout to fall off, not if I'm
(15:40):
like my knee hurts.
You know, I'm like stubborn,like that, but pain is the
driver that does is the samesort of situation where you're
identifying the pain points andthe implications of those pain
points and then also sort of howdoes that affect the individual
?
How do you think about thenegative connotation, you know,
versus the positive one?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
No.
So you do start with the painpoints in the discovery.
As per normal, the positiveconnotation is really saying so
what if that pain was removed inthe future?
So that's what I mean abouttaking people to the future
state with that context in mindand you'll see their eyes light
up and they'll go well, you knowthat's, you know that'll be
great because, blah, blah, blah,you know I'll be able to be,
(16:21):
you know to be seen better orwhatever.
So the idea is you're anchoringto the pain, but then you're
taking the future state andsaying, what if that pain was
removed?
What would that mean for thebusiness and what would that
mean for you?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Does the buyer, in this case, have to have a
certain level of seniority?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Sometimes we're working with folks that aren't
the decision maker but areobviously, you know, our main
point of contact and influentialin the decision making process
in a decision-making process,yeah, so I guess this approach
works best with not only thedecision-maker, but also the
budget holder and also thatperson in the organisation
(17:04):
that's always going to be thedevil's advocate.
So it's a matter of, I think,honing in Early in the sales
process.
You're obviously going to betalking to a broader team within
the organisation and thereforeyou're probably going to be at
above the waterline.
But when you get in front ofthe people that are making the
(17:26):
decision, owning the budget, andare going to try to say why not
, then that's when you need tobe.
Your proposition to them needsto address both above and below
the waterline.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So, ash, as sales leaders, getting back to what
you originally described we'vegot a pipeline of deals, we've
got the right pipeline coverage.
We don't want deals to stall.
What are some of the ways I'mcoaching and managing my
forecast with this knowledge orframing of not just above the
waterline but below thewaterline, as a consequence of
my pipeline management?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
So simple thing is you know, when you're doing your
pipeline review and or the dealreview and you ask so what's
the pain point?
Yeah, obviously you'll get allthose.
Then you've got to drill downand say so, have you asked them?
What is the impact on thebusiness if that pain is removed
?
Have you asked them?
(18:22):
So what for you as anindividual?
That's the tactical change thata sales leader needs to be
thinking of.
The other thing is and there'sa bit of coaching in terms of
helping sales reps listenproperly to these sort of cues
so I mentioned before the oneabout the IT leader who said
(18:50):
that the business should takecare of or should be involved in
innovation.
I'll give you another example Iwas in.
I used to sell treasury.
After Interlinks, I was sellingtreasury systems, which is all
about managing cash in anorganization.
I was speaking with the CFO andhe ran, I think, about eight or
10 countries across Asia and hesaid to me I said so why are
(19:14):
you looking for a treasurysystem?
And he said oh, we needautomation, we need efficiency.
We talked, we drilled down andwhat came out is that there'd
been a fraud case not one, buttwo fraud cases in some of the
other countries.
So what was most important tohim was making sure that to the
(19:35):
CEO and the board, he was seenas someone that fixed this
problem permanently.
But also he wanted to make surethat his peers never found out
that under his watch somethinglike this happened.
So it was all about positioningthe offer in terms of the trust
(19:55):
and being able to have nosurprises, and then also saying
that we've got the mostefficient, the best functions
and features as a treasurysystem and it's the right price.
So he could justify it alongthose lines when he said I want
(20:16):
to go with these guys.
Those lines when he said I wantto go with these guys.
So it's about then helping as aleader, coaching your reps to
pick on a certain statement thatwas made and then drill down
and say okay, I think this ispointing to something underneath
the waterline.
Let's drill down a little bitmore on this and understand
what's behind it yeah you're,you're prioritizing the
(20:38):
emotional buying process as partof your coaching.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I mean, I know, I think it's great like people buy
emotionally and rationalizelogically.
So you know, we got to play thegame in terms of a logical
decision making process withtechnical requirements that fit
this spreadsheet, and we got tocheck the boxes and do all that.
That's like there's no escapingthat and you do have to have a
solution.
Obviously that can do the thingthat solves the problem.
So we accept that all that istrue and a lot of sales today is
(21:04):
going through the motions ofthat.
And you're saying there's adifferent game also happening
that a lot of people aren'tplaying, and that is what I'm
calling the emotional game.
For the folks that are makingthe decision, what's the win for
them as an individual?
A, we don't often ask thequestion of what that is.
So how do we get our teams toask that question?
(21:24):
You said one got to build theright rapport.
There's probably tactics tobuild the right rapport with
senior folks that we can diginto.
And then, two, finding thosemoments of relationship building
, or I don't want to call itvulnerability, vulnerability,
but maybe connection where youcan get to that side, or what
you call under the water line,like that's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I don't see enough coaching towards that dynamic
which I've seen you lean into alittle bit here yeah, and I
think, um, you know, one of thethe key things is to be able to
do that, and sometimes you getresistance right when you start
(22:06):
talking with reps about, youknow, taking this different
approach.
It's touchy-feely stuff andit's not If you present it as.
What does it mean for you?
You're not asking someone'sfeelings up front, but you're
just asking what does it meanfor you?
Those sort of questions.
The way that I, I guess, put acontext around why it's
worthwhile developing skills inthis area is differentiation,
(22:28):
because everyone will bepositioning, all your
competitors will be positioningtheir offers above the waterline
and it'll be because we've gotthe best service, the best
product features, the best casestudies.
That's all above the waterline.
If you want to differentiateyourself, it's about addressing
those above but also adding inbelow the waterline, and I think
(22:53):
for a lot of reps, where it's atough market, this is now a
different way of differentiatingthemselves, but also building a
really strong relationship withthe people that matter in the
organisation, because you'readdressing what they need.
A very, very large automanufacturer out of Japan, and I
(23:20):
remember that the key moment iswhen I had a one-on-one with
the group CFO and he wanted mypersonal assurance that I'll be
there throughout the wholeimplementation, because that
bond had been created right.
So it wasn't just company, youknow, company to company buying.
(23:43):
You were now building thatpersonal relationship with the
key decision maker and the keybudget holder in the
organization.
So I look at it asdifferentiation is the angle, I
totally get it.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
What are some of the ways that you help sales leaders
teach their teams about rapportbuilding, because it starts
with rapport building?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I'm here to sell.
So if you, you know, andeveryone is open to being helped
, and if you frame what you'redoing, and even if you know like
in my current role where I'madvising organizations if I work
out in the discovery phase thatwe're not a good fit, I will
happily recommend someone elsethat is a better fit, because I
just want to help them get towhere they want to get to.
(24:42):
Obviously, if it's something Ican do, I'll take it further.
So I think the starting pointis the mindset.
Then it's about starting therapport building with, just, I
mean, getting to know what'sbeen happening in their world
recently.
If you're talking to someone ona Monday and Tuesday, getting to
know what's been happening intheir world recently, you know,
(25:03):
if you're talking to someone ona Monday and Tuesday, tell me
something that's been exciting,that's happened over the weekend
or what are you looking forwardto next weekend?
Just something that's outsidework obviously gets them talking
about what's important to themoutside the work environment.
And you know, I was talking tosomeone just a couple of days
ago and they were talking aboutdoing some sort of jumping off
(25:27):
cliffs was their thing.
I think, whoa, but what a greatway.
And you can see again, once youstart, they start talking about
that, eyes light up becausethey're passionate about what
they're doing outside work.
So that's a key part toactually starting the rapport
building is just to be talkingas human beings.
(25:48):
And again, the important thingis always that I'm here to help
mindset rather than I'm here toclose a deal mindset and then
sort of taking it from there.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
How do folks coach that?
Right, because you have somepeople on your team that are
more predisposed to berelationship oriented.
In fact, often you've got toget them to like not not be too
relationship oriented and getfocused on value.
Uh, as well, but, but, um.
But this idea of it's not justabout rapport building.
(26:20):
It's around this idea that younow can have a different
conversation with a customer,you can get below the waterline
so you know when a sales leaderis, you know what are things
they can do when they're withtheir team to help sort of
foster what you call thatmindset.
Right, because it's not justabout the rapport, it's about I
(26:41):
only want to do business withyou if I can help your business
in some meaningful way.
People can see right throughthe BS, exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Exactly right, and I think it's that authenticity,
that genuine help, and part ofit is, I find, role-playing
really effective, where you kindof set up the rules of the game
so people know, and then youpair them off and let them go
and do it on their own.
And we all know the mostself-critical person is yourself
(27:14):
, right when you see yourself ona video played back you know,
what's right and what's wrong.
So I find giving people aframework and then breaking
people out and using somethinglike a virtual team so they can
record themselves and actuallysee what's happening, that's a
(27:35):
great way of starting thelearning.
And then I think it needs to bereinforced by being there as a
sales leader during a live salescall and giving the feedback
after the call, obviously interms of what worked really well
and how you can just sort ofrefine the rapport building
phase and the rapport buildingit doesn't need to be long right
(27:58):
to be five, ten minutes, butit's enough so that you've got
that comfort level before youthen start talking about.
So, tell me about the problemsyou've got.
I actually find starting withtelling me about the problems
isn't as effective as startingwith what are your goals where?
What do you want to achieve inthe next six or twelve months?
Again, you're, you're, you're,you're putting people in that
(28:20):
future state, and then you canstart saying, okay, well, what
are some of the barriers, thebumps in the road that are maybe
going to stop you getting tothat goal?
So you then started and thenyou start talking about what I
said earlier about saying, okay,well, let's imagine just for a
minute.
You've overcome these roadbarriers.
(28:40):
What would that mean for thebusiness and therefore, what
would that mean for you?
So it's kind of a bit of aprogression but and it's
important it's a bit of astepping stone.
You do need the previous stepto be able to take the next step
and get down there.
So it's not a drive-by shootingsort of a sales call approach.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Role plays I'm a huge fan.
Hard to figure out is that.
Do you view that as something,in your experience, more ad hoc
in nature, that's doneinformally?
Is it structured part of a morebroad operating rhythm?
What's worked the best and doyou have examples of role plays
that you've seen really helppeople improve their skills in a
(29:19):
particular area?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, I think they've worked best when.
So I like a little bit ofstructure in terms of I think
you've got to show people whatgood is first, then let them go
and do a role play, then allowthem time to reflect and then
repeat and rinse, so's, I thinkuh, uh, it's not a one-off thing
(29:42):
.
I think you've got to do two orthree.
I've done them.
I've seen them work really wellwhere you have a team of maybe
10 or 12 people and you do theone-to-many kind of uh, you know
the rules of the game and thenpair people off into little
virtual rooms.
They record themselves, they doit, come back, talk about what
they've learned and then repeatwith someone else.
That sort of.
(30:03):
I think the repetition isreally important and to really
encourage the rapid learning ofsomething that's new and
something that's a little bituncomfortable for a lot of
people to start with.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
How do you show what good looks like?
Does that mean you have toleave from the front and start
and do the first role play orsomething?
Because you know, like salesreps, when you do role play you
know they roll their eyes andlike this isn't what they want
to be doing and you know a lotof it's the discomfort with the
way we're our own worst criticor the people that we work with
are more intimidating than likethe prospect, so we don't want
to look bad, and stuff like that.
How do you make it like more?
(30:36):
How do you create theenvironment where people want to
lean into it?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yeah.
So I pick someone from theaudience and I'll go through and
just show it, because you knowit's not staged, it's real,
right, and they'll see.
Everyone will be watching andsee, because you know what I
walk through where you'rebuilding the rapport up front
and you're asking about what'shappening in their life.
They'll see it all in action,right.
And then after that I'lldebrief and say, okay, these are
(31:09):
the steps I went through.
You remember I did this blah,blah, blah.
Now your turn right.
So that, I think, is you need alittle bit of structure, but
all I want to do is make surethat people leave a session like
that confident enough to try itin the real world.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
So we can role play rapport building.
What about cues likeidentifying cues to get below
the waterline?
Like what are some other roleplay situations where you've
seen it really help people bemore effective in getting to
this other side of the decisionprocess, the personal side.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
So one of the things we've found good is I go through
and once I explain below theline, I ask people to just jot
down on a whiteboard or whatever, what are all the little
phrases you've heard that mightbe a clue, and very, very
quickly you can get a board fullof these phrases.
(32:05):
And then I encourage people tosay well, you know, if you hear
this, what do you think thatmight be pointing to and
therefore, what follow upquestion do you need to ask to
get to identifying that?
So we had a situation where,talking with a compliance
(32:30):
software solution and theypreviously had positioned
themselves in the auditing as agood auditor policing by us this
is what you get by goingthrough this sort of process
they were able to change tosaying we're more of an
(32:51):
assurance, so be confident byusing us.
You're confident that when yougo to the board there are going
to be no nasty surprises andyou're going to look good to
everyone.
That matters to you and thatcomes out by, I say looking for
the clues, and they say thatit's, it's.
It's a I sort of position, thispart of the exercise that I do
(33:15):
with clients as a journal you,you guys, know what you're
hearing from your client base,jot it all down and then as a
group you start to, I guess, seewhere the common threads are.
Because when I said to youearlier about the IT manager who
wants to make sure the businesstakes on innovation, everyone
(33:38):
kind of can relate to those sortof statements and it's a matter
of, collectively, you know,jotting down what they all are
and then going through andsaying, okay, when we hear this,
what are we going to ask as afollow-up question?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
to get to the real emotional driver, yeah, you know
it's funny a lot of.
There's different types ofsales.
There's evangelist selling,there's a competitive market
selling, there's commodity basedselling and it really is the.
There's the cues, and the belowthe waterline is often the
(34:12):
bigger driver than whether youhave a better mousetrap than
somebody else.
I'm just thinking about some ofthe historic examples of that.
When you reflect on 43 quartersat Oracle, for example, do you
feel like this was yourdifferentiator, like your
ability to sort of connect andsort of get to that emotional
resonance, or the below thewaterline aspects of like?
(34:32):
Do you think that's what helpedyou sustain that long?
Or, were you know, are thereother circumstances as well?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
A number of circumstances, but that was
probably the main differentiator, because it was all about
delivering consistency quarterin, quarter out, and showing
continued growth.
That's what all sales leadersare tasked with, and this was,
you know, doing it over a longperiod of time.
This was one of the key secretsources and also, I guess, along
(35:01):
with that, was genuinelywanting to help all my team be
successful right and to helpthem to improve their own
performance.
So I think that's the, I guess,a couple of the things that
were that contributed to thatlongevity.
And also Oracle had areputation, as you know, in
(35:22):
terms of being quite ruthlessand clients also expected an
Oracle person to be a certaintype of salesperson.
By again adopting this approach, they came through as different
and actually, yeah, they'reactually here to help me and
therefore, you know, it helpedthe team as a whole to be much
(35:43):
more successful.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
So we covered a lot of ground.
I mean, we went through what apipeline looks like at the
beginning of the quarter anddeals stalling and the basic
above the waterline salesconversation that's happening
for 99% of all salesconversations a path to a
different conversation which ison the other side, the below the
waterline conversation, andsome tactics to be able to do
(36:05):
that.
I love the concept ofrole-playing.
I love the concept of this,like thinking about the personal
impact side of this positivefuture state around it, looking
for those cues in which to do it.
Is there anything that youwanted to cover today that we
didn't hit?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Look, I think that's the main point, and I'm always
conscious that.
You know sales leaders arelooking for an edge, and I found
this to be probably quitecentral to my past.
Success is to help my salesteams take on this different
approach, and once you start,it's quite easy to start
(36:47):
improving quite quickly, and Ithink that's the beauty of it,
because clients appreciate itand you can see the team start
to get energized once they seesomething like this working and
it's also applicable in allparts of their lives right, it's
not just in a sales thing.
So I think we've covered offmost of the things that I
(37:09):
thought were probably importantto share with your audience.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Ash, if people want to follow up with you, what's
the best way to find you?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
LinkedIn.
I'm posting a couple of times aweek just sharing ideas, so
LinkedIn is probably the bestway.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Ash, it's great to see you.
Thank you again for joiningtoday.
I look forward to talking toyou again soon.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Thanks, rick, really enjoyed it.
Thank you Bye.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Reflecting on the conversation with Ash Kalik.
He outlined the classicconundrum most of us sales
leaders face, and that is youenter a quarter and you look at
a metric that tries to determineare we going to have a good
quarter or not, and that ispipeline coverage.
Do I have enough pipeline to bethere in order to be able to
forecast a successful quarter,which is what I'm held
accountable to be able to do?
And so you know, then I look, Isaid good, I've got the
pipeline coverage there.
But inevitably, pipelinequality is variable, and so, as
(38:09):
the quarter progresses, whatstarts to happen?
Well, deals stall, and then theend of the quarter becomes a
bit of a fire drill where you'relooking for the hero, or heroes
in order to bring the dealsacross the line.
That, with the sweat pouringoff of us and limping through
the finish line, we get to wherewe need to be.
(38:29):
But boy, it didn't happen theway as smoothly as we had hoped
when we were looking at thatpipeline when the quarter began.
I've definitely been in thatsituation and I know most of us
have.
Ash really leaned into theconcept of above the waterline
versus below the waterline.
It's an interesting analogy.
And above the line, below theline is a common term that I've
(38:50):
heard in the past, but the abovethe line and below the line in
the context that I've learned itin the past has been more about
the power line and dealing withfolks above and below that.
But that's not what Ash wastalking about.
He was talking about above andbelow the waterline and in that
context he's talking about thedecision-making process of how
deals actually get decided onand above the waterline being
(39:14):
all the normal stuff withrequirements and features and
functions and the businessproblems and pains.
And below the water line is theripple effects as it relates to
that sort of emotionalconnection of why people make
decisions and how a future statethat's positive will impact
them personally, especially atthe decision maker level, and
(39:34):
Ash spent a lot of time in thisepisode talking about how to
focus on that, and theinteresting thing is that most
sellers don't do it.
They stay above the waterlineand so being able to go below
the waterline ends up being adifferentiator for a key seller.
I love the quote that peopleyou know, make a decision
emotionally and then rationalizeit logically, and Ash is
(39:55):
attempting to provide coachingand a playbook for leaders in
order to adapt their game tomeet that dynamic, and I love
that Ash started talking aboutrole plays.
I've mentioned several times inmy newsletter and on this
podcast that there's just nopractice in B2B sales, but Ash
reminds us that it does not haveto be true.
(40:16):
He prescribed a bit ofstructure where the leader leads
from the front and he shows, orshe shows, what good looks like
, and I love this.
It's important for salesleaders to never ask the team to
do something they wouldn't dothemselves, and I personally
just happen to love role plays.
I seek out others on my ownbefore a big call and I run
(40:38):
through a few scenarios becauseI want those important moments
in the call to go well.
So it's not a bad thing.
I don't know why there's anegative connotation associated
with role plays.
We don't want them to be awaste of time.
Why doesn't this happen more?
Why is there this bad stigmathat's associated with it?
There are skills to develop andpractice is an amazing way to
(40:59):
do it, and that, my friend, iswhat coaching is all about.
So I want to thank Ash forjoining us on Pillar Talk.
I want to thank Ari Smolin forproducing.
I want to thank Isla and Sonsof Summer for the tunes.
I want to thank you forlistening and we will see you
next time.
Take it easy the prices youpaid.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
Pillar Talk, where we build thefoundations of sales leadership
success and try to createclarity in terms of what good
looks like for current andaspiring sales leaders.
Before we jump in, I like toreview the six pillars of
successful sales leadership.
It starts with talentidentification and attraction.
(00:38):
Obviously, building the rightteam is critical to having that
success, and both attraction andidentification are difficult.
Hold on, I'm going to back up.
Before we jump in, let's reviewthe six pillars of successful
sales leadership.
It starts with talentidentification and attraction.
Both are extremely difficult.
Operating rhythm that's theenvironment that fosters
(01:01):
motivation, engagement andaccountability.
Business planning, workingcross-functionally to play
offense and plan for the futurerather than reacting to things
that happen to you.
Which things do happen.
And mastering the craft wherethe best leaders know how to
help the team win.
That's tactical as much as itis strategic.
And then communication andownership, and those take a
(01:23):
variety of forms but becomecritical in our journey to being
successful sales leaders.
Today I am excited to have onPillar Talk Ash Colick.
Ash is a scaling advisor basedin Australia and before sort of
being a scaling advisor andhelping founders grow their
business, ash had an extendedcareer in the deep trenches of
(01:44):
enterprise sales and has hadmany demanding leadership roles.
For example, ash lasted over 10years at Oracle during the
2000s, at the beginning of thiscentury and at a time when the
reputation in the sales orgthere was, I'll say, darwinian,
to put it mildly.
Ash has also had leadershiproles at Intralinks, where our
(02:07):
paths has crossed, and did oversix years at FIS, a big global,
leading financial technologycompany.
Ash has lived leadership atcompanies large and small.
So, ash, I am superappreciative of you being with
us today.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Thanks, rick, and yes , I think we used to manage or
we used to talk about our lengthof stay at Oracle in number of
quarters, I think I got up to 43.
So that was an achievement.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I believe it.
Some of the stories that youshared were it's tough.
You had to deliver, and part ofme appreciates that, and part
of me is stressed out by some ofthose stories as well.
That and part of me is stressedout by some of those stories as
well.
Ash, you may not remember this,but you provided formative
coaching in my own leadershipjourney.
I was working and living in HongKong.
I had been there for over ayear and I was delighted that
(02:57):
you had joined.
You were someone that was likefrom that side of the hemisphere
.
All the work that I had beendoing at the time, I had fearful
that if I was to leave, whatwould happen, and so when a real
leader came in, that wassomebody that wasn't going to be
moving to the other hemisphere.
It was a big relief and I wasvery excited, and so maybe I
wanted to show off a little bit.
(03:17):
I'm not really sure, but whenyou first joined, I wanted to
demonstrate how difficult it wasto communicate back with HQ,
which was 12 time zones away,and I don't remember the exact
context, but I sent probably asmart Alec email back to finance
around some really difficultissue that we had at the time
and I remember the next day webarely knew each other.
(03:37):
You sat me down and you saidRick, is it OK if I gave you
some feedback?
And I said sure.
And you said Rick, I got to saythat behavior that I saw in
that email demonstrated thatyou're not acting as a senior
leader.
And then the room just satsilent for a minute.
As a high performer I wasn'tused to getting challenging
feedback around what I was doingor not doing.
(03:59):
But, man, I appreciated it.
I sort of sat on that and Ifeel like I really learned from
it.
So thank you, ash.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well and look, I think both ways, because I think
you were receptive to the wholeidea of making improvements.
But I think it's reallyimportant to be quite honest
with people in terms of whenthey're doing great, but also
when there's an area forimprovement, and I think kudos
to you for running with it andmaking really some fundamental
(04:29):
changes that I think haveprobably held you in great stead
going forward in your career.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, we just don't see a lot of like direct, honest
feedback happen as much as itshould.
There's books written about itand all that, but I do.
It stands out to me as like aformative moment where I wasn't
doing something right.
Somebody pointed it out withconstructive intent to help me
be better, so really, reallyappreciated it.
So it's great to see you.
I'm really glad that you'rewith us.
I've seen you become moreactive on social media lately.
(04:57):
What's got you excited thesedays?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, I think, based on seeing so many sales leaders
struggle with their pipeline,one of the things that I
remember in my days was thatyou'd focus on the hygiene
factors of the pipeline and atthe beginning of the quarter
everything looked great.
You'd have all the happy news,the happy ears, forecasts were
(05:26):
looking strong.
But then as the quarterprogressed, you get to the stage
where basically, deals werestarting to stall and you also,
obviously, your forecasts werestarting to slip and inevitably
you'd go to your one or two bigtop reps and say can you do
something just to get me overthe line for the quarter.
So I think that whole area I'veseen repeat time and time again
(05:50):
and it got me thinking well,there's got to be a better way.
And what really struck me waswhen I realised that a lot of
times deals are actuallystalling because we're
addressing what the customer'sasking for in turn.
But they're actually logicalelements.
I like to think of it like abit of an iceberg.
(06:13):
So if you think of what acustomer asks for in terms of
the features, benefits, casestudies, the experience of the
team, think of the tip of theiceberg and what's above the
waterline, that's all logicalstuff.
But what really happens andwhat moves deals is what happens
(06:33):
underneath the waterline.
So that's where the client, thebuyer, is under certain
pressure.
Things that really matter tothem, they all sit under that
waterline and the stuff thatthey feel that never say aloud,
they all sit there.
So the idea is, as a, I guess,from a leadership point of view,
(06:58):
to coach your team to uncoverthose emotional factors or,
below the waterline, tocomplement.
So I'll give you an examplethis is a personal example where
I was looking to buy one ofthose fancy pizza ovens for the
backyard and on the surface itwas really all about cooking the
(07:21):
best pizza.
But when I sat down and, youknow, looking at forking out a
few bucks for it, I realised thereal reason I wanted that pizza
oven was so that I could have alot of friends around all
having a great time and thinkingthat Ash is a kick-ass pizza
maker.
And that's really thedifference between.
(07:44):
You know, above the line iskind of above the water line, is
all about the best pizza, butreally the emotional driver was
below the waterline.
And so that's the stuff thatsort of I'm trying to help
leaders coach their teams toidentify in their sales cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I love that.
I mean, I can completelypicture and connect with the
concept that it's the beginningof the quarter.
You're looking at metrics likepipeline coverage.
You're seeing, okay, we havetwo times, four times coverage.
We're feeling good.
There's a long list ofopportunities.
We need to make sure theirpipeline hygiene is a thing.
We need things during the rightstage.
We have to make sure it's theright dollar amount.
(08:24):
And as the quarter progressesand inevitably the pipeline
starts to stall and the coveragestarts to go down.
And then you look for the heroto say how are we going to get
out of this thing, what are thekey deals?
And it becomes a bit more of ascramble.
So the idea of like, as we gofurther than just the surface
layer of the pipeline, how do wehelp our sellers or coach or
(08:47):
lead a team to look beyond justthe technical requirements?
Right, I love the pizza analogy.
It's not just about the heat ofthe oven, it's about you know
what's going to happen on theother side around it.
And so I guess it goes intowhat are some of the tactical
advice or some of the tacticsthat you are seeing that is
working to help, Because it'seasier said than done to find
(09:10):
emotional resonance.
It can be difficult to be.
You know some of.
We talk about buildingcredibility, establishing trust,
being the trusted advisor,being consultative and not
making it about your product butmaking it more about the
customer.
What are you seeing that'sworking to sort of identify the
below the waterline?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So, firstly, how do you identify?
You have a problem there, and Ithink we've all been in that
situation where we havesubmitted what we think is the
perfect proposal.
Right, it's hitting the mark interms of what the client has
asked for.
You know we've got the rightfunctions, features, we're
addressing their business needs.
You know we've got everythingsorted out in terms of the team
(09:54):
and so forth, but the dealstalls and therefore it's about
identifying the stuff under thewaterline.
So this way I think of this isthink of your typical coaching
or sorry, discovery process.
When you're going throughdiscovery, you'll identify the
client's business problems.
(10:15):
Most people will jot that downand then move on.
What I suggest people do assales leaders in terms of
coaching is get the person tothen say firstly, what if you
were able to overcome these sortof problems?
So move your prospect into likea future state.
(10:35):
Then ask so what would mean tothe business if you actually
achieved overcoming theseproblems?
And here's the killer line.
You then say what would it meanfor you?
And you're gonna pause tenseconds.
Just take up the silence.
(10:56):
That's where the buyer willthen start to talk about what it
means for them.
You're're now below thatwaterline.
They're talking about the painpoints, the things that really
matter to them, and the trick isaddress those as well as what's
above the waterline.
(11:16):
Does that make?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
sense.
It makes great sense, would yousay, that the future state and
the impact of the business andall the stuff that we teach in
value selling is a little bitmore of the above.
The waterline and the emotionalsort of how it impacts the
individual you're working withdirectly is the stuff that's the
good stuff below.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Correct, and so it's a matter of building on what
we've, I guess, been doing inthe past.
As I say, most people will gothrough the discovery, identify
all the problems but not drilldown into what is the
implication, what's theconsequence of achieving or not
achieving, overcoming thoseproblems.
And you can do it at two levels.
(11:55):
One is impact on the business,but the really key thing is so
what does it mean for you?
And you just pause, that isgold when people kind of when
the client just thinks and youcan see it in their eyes.
The other thing that helps isto take a positive stance.
So you know in terms of theproblems, then say, in terms of
(12:17):
you know overcoming them, whatdoes that mean for the business?
And so you're getting peopleinto that positive state.
And then again, what does itmean for you personally?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So what I'm hearing you describe is personalizing
selling, and it is anon-intuitive aspect for a
salesperson that's focused on abusiness problem or a business
opportunity and wants to educate, based on our capabilities to
meet that need, to sort of moveto the side of that and get into
(12:47):
, sometimes, the life aspect ofthe individual on the other side
, because what it means for thempersonally is often got
something to do with their.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
You know, it could be their professional life, but it
could be things outside of thatas well it is, and you're not
going to get to that spot unlessright at the start of the
discovery you have built.
Rapport and I think of rapportas nothing more than trust, and
that's about valuing the valuesof the person you're talking
with and you know not judgingwhat they're saying, but you
(13:19):
know at least saying to themyeah, I understand where you're
at.
You can then move into thediscovery phase, ask all the
normal questions about.
You know what they want toachieve all that, but because
you've got that rapport built,it allows you then to be able to
go through and then ask whatdoes it mean for you?
Now it doesn't.
(13:39):
You know the answer, so I'llgive you some examples.
I was talking, I remember, earlyon talking with a CIO who was
running a number of different orhis clients were six different
business units, and he said thisstatement in the discussion I
(14:02):
wish that businesses would takeownership of innovation rather
than leaving it to IT.
Now, when I drilled down in thatand understood, what came out
is that he was actuallyfrustrated that IT was being
seen as a cost center, anorganization that just delivers,
(14:24):
but not a thought leader or aninnovator.
So what you know, what thathelped me understand, is that I
needed to show how he can bepositioned within the
organization as a thought leader, a change agent, obviously
within the IT role.
That not only closed the deal,but it closed the deal because,
(14:49):
from a competitive point of view, everyone else was talking
above the line.
They were talking about howgood their functions and
features were, roi, correct,correct, right.
And this is the interestingthing when you make an offer,
you need to address both abovethe waterline and below the
waterline.
The reality is, a buyer willmake a decision based on below
(15:14):
the waterline, but they willjustify it 100%.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I love the framing of this.
Let me just ask a tacticalquestion related.
You painted the picture of afuture state.
Where and how would that affectthe individual which has the
positive connotations?
Of good things that happen tothem.
Often we hear that people don'ttake action typically unless
it's addressing pain right, like, for example, I only go to the
doctor when it's like my leg'sabout to fall off, not if I'm
(15:40):
like my knee hurts.
You know, I'm like stubborn,like that, but pain is the
driver that does is the samesort of situation where you're
identifying the pain points andthe implications of those pain
points and then also sort of howdoes that affect the individual
?
How do you think about thenegative connotation, you know,
versus the positive one?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
No.
So you do start with the painpoints in the discovery.
As per normal, the positiveconnotation is really saying so
what if that pain was removed inthe future?
So that's what I mean abouttaking people to the future
state with that context in mindand you'll see their eyes light
up and they'll go well, you knowthat's, you know that'll be
great because, blah, blah, blah,you know I'll be able to be,
(16:21):
you know to be seen better orwhatever.
So the idea is you're anchoringto the pain, but then you're
taking the future state andsaying, what if that pain was
removed?
What would that mean for thebusiness and what would that
mean for you?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Does the buyer, in this case, have to have a
certain level of seniority?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Sometimes we're working with folks that aren't
the decision maker but areobviously, you know, our main
point of contact and influentialin the decision making process
in a decision-making process,yeah, so I guess this approach
works best with not only thedecision-maker, but also the
budget holder and also thatperson in the organisation
(17:04):
that's always going to be thedevil's advocate.
So it's a matter of, I think,honing in Early in the sales
process.
You're obviously going to betalking to a broader team within
the organisation and thereforeyou're probably going to be at
above the waterline.
But when you get in front ofthe people that are making the
(17:26):
decision, owning the budget, andare going to try to say why not
, then that's when you need tobe.
Your proposition to them needsto address both above and below
the waterline.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So, ash, as sales leaders, getting back to what
you originally described we'vegot a pipeline of deals, we've
got the right pipeline coverage.
We don't want deals to stall.
What are some of the ways I'mcoaching and managing my
forecast with this knowledge orframing of not just above the
waterline but below thewaterline, as a consequence of
my pipeline management?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
So simple thing is you know, when you're doing your
pipeline review and or the dealreview and you ask so what's
the pain point?
Yeah, obviously you'll get allthose.
Then you've got to drill downand say so, have you asked them?
What is the impact on thebusiness if that pain is removed
?
Have you asked them?
(18:22):
So what for you as anindividual?
That's the tactical change thata sales leader needs to be
thinking of.
The other thing is and there'sa bit of coaching in terms of
helping sales reps listenproperly to these sort of cues
so I mentioned before the oneabout the IT leader who said
(18:50):
that the business should takecare of or should be involved in
innovation.
I'll give you another example Iwas in.
I used to sell treasury.
After Interlinks, I was sellingtreasury systems, which is all
about managing cash in anorganization.
I was speaking with the CFO andhe ran, I think, about eight or
10 countries across Asia and hesaid to me I said so why are
(19:14):
you looking for a treasurysystem?
And he said oh, we needautomation, we need efficiency.
We talked, we drilled down andwhat came out is that there'd
been a fraud case not one, buttwo fraud cases in some of the
other countries.
So what was most important tohim was making sure that to the
(19:35):
CEO and the board, he was seenas someone that fixed this
problem permanently.
But also he wanted to make surethat his peers never found out
that under his watch somethinglike this happened.
So it was all about positioningthe offer in terms of the trust
(19:55):
and being able to have nosurprises, and then also saying
that we've got the mostefficient, the best functions
and features as a treasurysystem and it's the right price.
So he could justify it alongthose lines when he said I want
(20:16):
to go with these guys.
Those lines when he said I wantto go with these guys.
So it's about then helping as aleader, coaching your reps to
pick on a certain statement thatwas made and then drill down
and say okay, I think this ispointing to something underneath
the waterline.
Let's drill down a little bitmore on this and understand
what's behind it yeah you're,you're prioritizing the
(20:38):
emotional buying process as partof your coaching.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I mean, I know, I think it's great like people buy
emotionally and rationalizelogically.
So you know, we got to play thegame in terms of a logical
decision making process withtechnical requirements that fit
this spreadsheet, and we got tocheck the boxes and do all that.
That's like there's no escapingthat and you do have to have a
solution.
Obviously that can do the thingthat solves the problem.
So we accept that all that istrue and a lot of sales today is
(21:04):
going through the motions ofthat.
And you're saying there's adifferent game also happening
that a lot of people aren'tplaying, and that is what I'm
calling the emotional game.
For the folks that are makingthe decision, what's the win for
them as an individual?
A, we don't often ask thequestion of what that is.
So how do we get our teams toask that question?
(21:24):
You said one got to build theright rapport.
There's probably tactics tobuild the right rapport with
senior folks that we can diginto.
And then, two, finding thosemoments of relationship building
, or I don't want to call itvulnerability, vulnerability,
but maybe connection where youcan get to that side, or what
you call under the water line,like that's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I don't see enough coaching towards that dynamic
which I've seen you lean into alittle bit here yeah, and I
think, um, you know, one of thethe key things is to be able to
do that, and sometimes you getresistance right when you start
(22:06):
talking with reps about, youknow, taking this different
approach.
It's touchy-feely stuff andit's not If you present it as.
What does it mean for you?
You're not asking someone'sfeelings up front, but you're
just asking what does it meanfor you?
Those sort of questions.
The way that I, I guess, put acontext around why it's
worthwhile developing skills inthis area is differentiation,
(22:28):
because everyone will bepositioning, all your
competitors will be positioningtheir offers above the waterline
and it'll be because we've gotthe best service, the best
product features, the best casestudies.
That's all above the waterline.
If you want to differentiateyourself, it's about addressing
those above but also adding inbelow the waterline, and I think
(22:53):
for a lot of reps, where it's atough market, this is now a
different way of differentiatingthemselves, but also building a
really strong relationship withthe people that matter in the
organisation, because you'readdressing what they need.
A very, very large automanufacturer out of Japan, and I
(23:20):
remember that the key moment iswhen I had a one-on-one with
the group CFO and he wanted mypersonal assurance that I'll be
there throughout the wholeimplementation, because that
bond had been created right.
So it wasn't just company, youknow, company to company buying.
(23:43):
You were now building thatpersonal relationship with the
key decision maker and the keybudget holder in the
organization.
So I look at it asdifferentiation is the angle, I
totally get it.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
What are some of the ways that you help sales leaders
teach their teams about rapportbuilding, because it starts
with rapport building?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I'm here to sell.
So if you, you know, andeveryone is open to being helped
, and if you frame what you'redoing, and even if you know like
in my current role where I'madvising organizations if I work
out in the discovery phase thatwe're not a good fit, I will
happily recommend someone elsethat is a better fit, because I
just want to help them get towhere they want to get to.
(24:42):
Obviously, if it's something Ican do, I'll take it further.
So I think the starting pointis the mindset.
Then it's about starting therapport building with, just, I
mean, getting to know what'sbeen happening in their world
recently.
If you're talking to someone ona Monday and Tuesday, getting to
know what's been happening intheir world recently, you know,
(25:03):
if you're talking to someone ona Monday and Tuesday, tell me
something that's been exciting,that's happened over the weekend
or what are you looking forwardto next weekend?
Just something that's outsidework obviously gets them talking
about what's important to themoutside the work environment.
And you know, I was talking tosomeone just a couple of days
ago and they were talking aboutdoing some sort of jumping off
(25:27):
cliffs was their thing.
I think, whoa, but what a greatway.
And you can see again, once youstart, they start talking about
that, eyes light up becausethey're passionate about what
they're doing outside work.
So that's a key part toactually starting the rapport
building is just to be talkingas human beings.
(25:48):
And again, the important thingis always that I'm here to help
mindset rather than I'm here toclose a deal mindset and then
sort of taking it from there.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
How do folks coach that?
Right, because you have somepeople on your team that are
more predisposed to berelationship oriented.
In fact, often you've got toget them to like not not be too
relationship oriented and getfocused on value.
Uh, as well, but, but, um.
But this idea of it's not justabout rapport building.
(26:20):
It's around this idea that younow can have a different
conversation with a customer,you can get below the waterline
so you know when a sales leaderis, you know what are things
they can do when they're withtheir team to help sort of
foster what you call thatmindset.
Right, because it's not justabout the rapport, it's about I
(26:41):
only want to do business withyou if I can help your business
in some meaningful way.
People can see right throughthe BS, exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Exactly right, and I think it's that authenticity,
that genuine help, and part ofit is, I find, role-playing
really effective, where you kindof set up the rules of the game
so people know, and then youpair them off and let them go
and do it on their own.
And we all know the mostself-critical person is yourself
(27:14):
, right when you see yourself ona video played back you know,
what's right and what's wrong.
So I find giving people aframework and then breaking
people out and using somethinglike a virtual team so they can
record themselves and actuallysee what's happening, that's a
(27:35):
great way of starting thelearning.
And then I think it needs to bereinforced by being there as a
sales leader during a live salescall and giving the feedback
after the call, obviously interms of what worked really well
and how you can just sort ofrefine the rapport building
phase and the rapport buildingit doesn't need to be long right
(27:58):
to be five, ten minutes, butit's enough so that you've got
that comfort level before youthen start talking about.
So, tell me about the problemsyou've got.
I actually find starting withtelling me about the problems
isn't as effective as startingwith what are your goals where?
What do you want to achieve inthe next six or twelve months?
Again, you're, you're, you're,you're putting people in that
(28:20):
future state, and then you canstart saying, okay, well, what
are some of the barriers, thebumps in the road that are maybe
going to stop you getting tothat goal?
So you then started and thenyou start talking about what I
said earlier about saying, okay,well, let's imagine just for a
minute.
You've overcome these roadbarriers.
(28:40):
What would that mean for thebusiness and therefore, what
would that mean for you?
So it's kind of a bit of aprogression but and it's
important it's a bit of astepping stone.
You do need the previous stepto be able to take the next step
and get down there.
So it's not a drive-by shootingsort of a sales call approach.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Role plays I'm a huge fan.
Hard to figure out is that.
Do you view that as something,in your experience, more ad hoc
in nature, that's doneinformally?
Is it structured part of a morebroad operating rhythm?
What's worked the best and doyou have examples of role plays
that you've seen really helppeople improve their skills in a
(29:19):
particular area?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, I think they've worked best when.
So I like a little bit ofstructure in terms of I think
you've got to show people whatgood is first, then let them go
and do a role play, then allowthem time to reflect and then
repeat and rinse, so's, I thinkuh, uh, it's not a one-off thing
(29:42):
.
I think you've got to do two orthree.
I've done them.
I've seen them work really wellwhere you have a team of maybe
10 or 12 people and you do theone-to-many kind of uh, you know
the rules of the game and thenpair people off into little
virtual rooms.
They record themselves, they doit, come back, talk about what
they've learned and then repeatwith someone else.
That sort of.
(30:03):
I think the repetition isreally important and to really
encourage the rapid learning ofsomething that's new and
something that's a little bituncomfortable for a lot of
people to start with.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
How do you show what good looks like?
Does that mean you have toleave from the front and start
and do the first role play orsomething?
Because you know, like salesreps, when you do role play you
know they roll their eyes andlike this isn't what they want
to be doing and you know a lotof it's the discomfort with the
way we're our own worst criticor the people that we work with
are more intimidating than likethe prospect, so we don't want
to look bad, and stuff like that.
How do you make it like more?
(30:36):
How do you create theenvironment where people want to
lean into it?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yeah.
So I pick someone from theaudience and I'll go through and
just show it, because you knowit's not staged, it's real,
right, and they'll see.
Everyone will be watching andsee, because you know what I
walk through where you'rebuilding the rapport up front
and you're asking about what'shappening in their life.
They'll see it all in action,right.
And then after that I'lldebrief and say, okay, these are
(31:09):
the steps I went through.
You remember I did this blah,blah, blah.
Now your turn right.
So that, I think, is you need alittle bit of structure, but
all I want to do is make surethat people leave a session like
that confident enough to try itin the real world.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
So we can role play rapport building.
What about cues likeidentifying cues to get below
the waterline?
Like what are some other roleplay situations where you've
seen it really help people bemore effective in getting to
this other side of the decisionprocess, the personal side.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
So one of the things we've found good is I go through
and once I explain below theline, I ask people to just jot
down on a whiteboard or whatever, what are all the little
phrases you've heard that mightbe a clue, and very, very
quickly you can get a board fullof these phrases.
(32:05):
And then I encourage people tosay well, you know, if you hear
this, what do you think thatmight be pointing to and
therefore, what follow upquestion do you need to ask to
get to identifying that?
So we had a situation where,talking with a compliance
(32:30):
software solution and theypreviously had positioned
themselves in the auditing as agood auditor policing by us this
is what you get by goingthrough this sort of process
they were able to change tosaying we're more of an
(32:51):
assurance, so be confident byusing us.
You're confident that when yougo to the board there are going
to be no nasty surprises andyou're going to look good to
everyone.
That matters to you and thatcomes out by, I say looking for
the clues, and they say thatit's, it's.
It's a I sort of position, thispart of the exercise that I do
(33:15):
with clients as a journal you,you guys, know what you're
hearing from your client base,jot it all down and then as a
group you start to, I guess, seewhere the common threads are.
Because when I said to youearlier about the IT manager who
wants to make sure the businesstakes on innovation, everyone
(33:38):
kind of can relate to those sortof statements and it's a matter
of, collectively, you know,jotting down what they all are
and then going through andsaying, okay, when we hear this,
what are we going to ask as afollow-up question?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
to get to the real emotional driver, yeah, you know
it's funny a lot of.
There's different types ofsales.
There's evangelist selling,there's a competitive market
selling, there's commodity basedselling and it really is the.
There's the cues, and the belowthe waterline is often the
(34:12):
bigger driver than whether youhave a better mousetrap than
somebody else.
I'm just thinking about some ofthe historic examples of that.
When you reflect on 43 quartersat Oracle, for example, do you
feel like this was yourdifferentiator, like your
ability to sort of connect andsort of get to that emotional
resonance, or the below thewaterline aspects of like?
(34:32):
Do you think that's what helpedyou sustain that long?
Or, were you know, are thereother circumstances as well?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
A number of circumstances, but that was
probably the main differentiator, because it was all about
delivering consistency quarterin, quarter out, and showing
continued growth.
That's what all sales leadersare tasked with, and this was,
you know, doing it over a longperiod of time.
This was one of the key secretsources and also, I guess, along
(35:01):
with that, was genuinelywanting to help all my team be
successful right and to helpthem to improve their own
performance.
So I think that's the, I guess,a couple of the things that
were that contributed to thatlongevity.
And also Oracle had areputation, as you know, in
(35:22):
terms of being quite ruthlessand clients also expected an
Oracle person to be a certaintype of salesperson.
By again adopting this approach, they came through as different
and actually, yeah, they'reactually here to help me and
therefore, you know, it helpedthe team as a whole to be much
(35:43):
more successful.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
So we covered a lot of ground.
I mean, we went through what apipeline looks like at the
beginning of the quarter anddeals stalling and the basic
above the waterline salesconversation that's happening
for 99% of all salesconversations a path to a
different conversation which ison the other side, the below the
waterline conversation, andsome tactics to be able to do
(36:05):
that.
I love the concept ofrole-playing.
I love the concept of this,like thinking about the personal
impact side of this positivefuture state around it, looking
for those cues in which to do it.
Is there anything that youwanted to cover today that we
didn't hit?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Look, I think that's the main point, and I'm always
conscious that.
You know sales leaders arelooking for an edge, and I found
this to be probably quitecentral to my past.
Success is to help my salesteams take on this different
approach, and once you start,it's quite easy to start
(36:47):
improving quite quickly, and Ithink that's the beauty of it,
because clients appreciate itand you can see the team start
to get energized once they seesomething like this working and
it's also applicable in allparts of their lives right, it's
not just in a sales thing.
So I think we've covered offmost of the things that I
(37:09):
thought were probably importantto share with your audience.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Ash, if people want to follow up with you, what's
the best way to find you?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
LinkedIn.
I'm posting a couple of times aweek just sharing ideas, so
LinkedIn is probably the bestway.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Ash, it's great to see you.
Thank you again for joiningtoday.
I look forward to talking toyou again soon.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Thanks, rick, really enjoyed it.
Thank you Bye.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Reflecting on the conversation with Ash Kalik.
He outlined the classicconundrum most of us sales
leaders face, and that is youenter a quarter and you look at
a metric that tries to determineare we going to have a good
quarter or not, and that ispipeline coverage.
Do I have enough pipeline to bethere in order to be able to
forecast a successful quarter,which is what I'm held
accountable to be able to do?
And so you know, then I look, Isaid good, I've got the
pipeline coverage there.
But inevitably, pipelinequality is variable, and so, as
(38:09):
the quarter progresses, whatstarts to happen?
Well, deals stall, and then theend of the quarter becomes a
bit of a fire drill where you'relooking for the hero, or heroes
in order to bring the dealsacross the line.
That, with the sweat pouringoff of us and limping through
the finish line, we get to wherewe need to be.
(38:29):
But boy, it didn't happen theway as smoothly as we had hoped
when we were looking at thatpipeline when the quarter began.
I've definitely been in thatsituation and I know most of us
have.
Ash really leaned into theconcept of above the waterline
versus below the waterline.
It's an interesting analogy.
And above the line, below theline is a common term that I've
(38:50):
heard in the past, but the abovethe line and below the line in
the context that I've learned itin the past has been more about
the power line and dealing withfolks above and below that.
But that's not what Ash wastalking about.
He was talking about above andbelow the waterline and in that
context he's talking about thedecision-making process of how
deals actually get decided onand above the waterline being
(39:14):
all the normal stuff withrequirements and features and
functions and the businessproblems and pains.
And below the water line is theripple effects as it relates to
that sort of emotionalconnection of why people make
decisions and how a future statethat's positive will impact
them personally, especially atthe decision maker level, and
(39:34):
Ash spent a lot of time in thisepisode talking about how to
focus on that, and theinteresting thing is that most
sellers don't do it.
They stay above the waterlineand so being able to go below
the waterline ends up being adifferentiator for a key seller.
I love the quote that peopleyou know, make a decision
emotionally and then rationalizeit logically, and Ash is
(39:55):
attempting to provide coachingand a playbook for leaders in
order to adapt their game tomeet that dynamic, and I love
that Ash started talking aboutrole plays.
I've mentioned several times inmy newsletter and on this
podcast that there's just nopractice in B2B sales, but Ash
reminds us that it does not haveto be true.
(40:16):
He prescribed a bit ofstructure where the leader leads
from the front and he shows, orshe shows, what good looks like
, and I love this.
It's important for salesleaders to never ask the team to
do something they wouldn't dothemselves, and I personally
just happen to love role plays.
I seek out others on my ownbefore a big call and I run
(40:38):
through a few scenarios becauseI want those important moments
in the call to go well.
So it's not a bad thing.
I don't know why there's anegative connotation associated
with role plays.
We don't want them to be awaste of time.
Why doesn't this happen more?
Why is there this bad stigmathat's associated with it?
There are skills to develop andpractice is an amazing way to
(40:59):
do it, and that, my friend, iswhat coaching is all about.
So I want to thank Ash forjoining us on Pillar Talk.
I want to thank Ari Smolin forproducing.
I want to thank Isla and Sonsof Summer for the tunes.
I want to thank you forlistening and we will see you
next time.
Take it easy the prices youpaid.
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