June 27, 2025 • 44 mins
Shane Evans, Chief Revenue Officer at Gong, brings decades of executive leadership experience to this illuminating conversation about what truly drives sales leadership success.
Shane shares the frameworks and approaches that have allowed him to navigate increasingly complex leadership challenges throughout his career.
Shane advocates for embracing a growth mindset and remaining open to opportunities as they arise. This philosophy has guided him through critical career transitions and ultimately to his current role at one of the most respected SaaS companies.
Shane reveals his approach to joining new organizations - prioritizing relationships with cross-functional peers before diving into the sales organization.
The discussion explores Shane's leadership pyramid framework, effective messaging through repetition, and addresses the reality of burnout among leaders and shares how he's helping his team establish boundaries, prioritize effectively, and maintain personal wellbeing alongside professional excellence. By modeling these behaviors himself - openly discussing his own need for balance and recharge time - he creates permission for his team to do the same.
Whether you're an aspiring sales leader or an experienced executive, this conversation offers practical frameworks and thought-provoking insights to help you lead with greater impact, authenticity, and sustainability.
Music by Ben Cina & Ayler Young
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of Pillar Talk.
This is the podcast where webuild the foundations of sales
leadership success and attemptto create clarity in terms of
what good looks like for currentand aspiring sales leaders.
We are lucky today to be joinedby Shane Evans.
Shane Evans is the CRO of Gong,one of the most popular and
(00:34):
most loved sales software outthere, one that I particularly
had a lot of positiveexperiences with.
So, Shane, really glad to haveyou join us.
Shane has extensive leadershipexperience, not just in sales
but executive level experiencecompanies that everyone's heard
of, like Qualtrics, MX, TalkDeskand Gong today.
So, Shane, thank you so muchfor joining Pillar Talk.
Shane Evans (01:10):
So thank you for all the great work that you're
doing and inspiring others toraise their game, in a manner of
speaking.
Yeah, you know, I started thisShane, where I was a successful
individual contributor, and Ithen moved into sales leadership
and for years I was trying tofigure out, like how do I become
a good sales leader?
As an individual contributor,all I had to do was close more
deals, so it was very easy forme to have a barometer of
(01:30):
whether I'm succeeding or not.
As I've evolved as a leader, Ikept wondering, like am I having
a positive impact?
Am I having a negative impacton the team?
I'm sure there were situationswhen both of those statements
were true at one time or another.
As time has passed, I'm nowgetting further and further away
from the daily customerconversation and I'm continuing
(01:53):
to try to figure out, like howdo we have the most impact as
sales leaders?
So I developed these pillarsfrom talent acquisition and
hiring, operating rhythm andfostering motivation and
engagement across a wider teambusiness planning.
So much of what we end updealing with if we don't play
our cards right is reactivesituations.
(02:14):
So-and-so has resigned.
How are we going to go backfillthat position In a high growth
environment?
You can't work that way,because you've just lost six
months of quota, as an example,and that's just one example of
so many where you need to bereally strong in terms of your
cross-functional collaborationso that you can make decisions
today that'll have an impact inlike six or nine months.
(02:37):
Of course, there's coaching andmastering the craft, and then
there's these like meta onesaround communication and like
how to be excellent atcommunication in a world where
we're more remote.
And then there's an evolutionaround ownership and how, like
do I need to be told what to door do I take the initiative?
Or also balance between likehey, am I all about my team and
(02:59):
advocating for them, or am Ifinding the balance with like
the team needs as well as thebusiness, and having to try to
find the right place, you know,on the continuum there.
So these are the pillars thatI've come up with so far, and
I'm always trying to learn howto be better at each individual
one.
Shane, the first question Imight pose for you is simply,
(03:20):
you know to rise up and be theCRO of one of the most
prestigious you know SaaScompanies out there are
certainly one of my favorites ingong, like, what do you think
was the, the strength in yourindividual sales leadership that
helped lead you to that.
You know ultimate destinationyeah, what's.
What's really cool, rick, is acareer is a collection of micro
experiences that you end uphaving in a multitude of
(03:42):
different positions throughout anumber of years, and sometimes
it spans over decades.
And so to try and point to likeone moment that I felt like it
was the difference maker, itwould be dang near impossible.
I've got a close mentor and afriend who unfortunately is no
longer with us, but one of hiseuphisms that he used to offer
was it requires a truckload oflead.
There are no silver bullets,and I think a career is very
(04:05):
similar.
It doesn't matter where youfind yourself.
There's moments every singleday where there's learning and
there's growth and there'speople around you.
Sometimes they're super helpful, other times they present some
growth opportunities what I liketo call them where you can use
that as an opportunity to getbetter.
And so, if I were to sum allthat up, you know, the one thing
that's been a passion of mineis to always have a growth
(04:26):
mindset, and it doesn't matterthe circumstance.
You could be ahead in the gameby 20 points and up, or you
could be down by 20 points andfeeling like you're about to
just get walked out of thebuilding.
And yet, if you always havethat mindset of this is a
learning opportunity.
I think that's what can leadyou to great places.
And the last thing I'll say hereearly in my career, I've always
been a planner.
(04:47):
I've always been verygoal-oriented and I'm very
impatient.
That's part of the downside tomy personality, and I had to
learn early on that you can'tchart a linear path for where
you want to get.
And so if you were to try andsay, hey, how did you arrive at
Gong?
I have four kids, I tell themall the time I never woke up one
morning and thought, man, Iwant to be in tech sales.
(05:08):
It was just opportunities keptopening up, doors kept opening
and I would look and evaluate isthis a growth opportunity?
Can this help me become abetter version of myself today?
And so that mindset has allowedme to take on some incredible
opportunities and it's led me toGong, which is just an
incredible company with anamazing team.
I feel so fortunate to have theopportunity to work with this
(05:31):
group today and I would say thatthere's no one moment.
It's just having that growthmindset and being ready, when an
opportunity presents itself, totake advantage of it and learn
as much as you possibly can inthat moment.
Rick Smolen (05:45):
Yeah, I guess when I hear you talk about being a
planner, being goal-oriented andimpatient, it reminds me of a
story like a magic moment in mycareer, where I learned that the
path I was on or the track Iwas taking wasn't going to get
me to where I wanted to go.
I was on an internationalassignment, so I was 12 time
zones away and the way I wasinteracting with a co-worker
(06:06):
that was in New York while I wasin Asia, it was a little bit of
me one-upping them and I had anew leader come into the
organization and maybe I waseven showing off a little bit.
Now I'm supposed to be a prettysenior leader in the
organization and so one-uppingsomebody that's like junior and
showing off for like a newleader are not necessarily the
attributes of a super successfulleader, and I don't even think
(06:27):
I realized it at the time.
Now a new leader came into theorganization and had been being
CC'd on that.
I thought their reaction wasgoing to be impressed.
At all my knowledge, theirreaction was like hey, I
actually don't think you're asenior leader at this company
and we probably should talkabout that, which based on.
My expectation going into thatmeeting was shocking and it was
(06:48):
probably some of the bestfeedback that I ever got, where
you know, it simply relayed that.
What I observed in thatsituation was you know these
things that you were doing andnot necessarily helping the
business with all the knowledgethat you have, and if you want
to be a senior leader, you needto be thinking about how your
communication is going to comeoff to others.
(07:09):
And I think from that momentforward, that feedback was
instilled in me and that everycommunication especially when
I'm feeling in any way emotiveabout maybe not hearing news I
want to hear, or seeingsuboptimal execution out there,
that was like a magic moment forme that helped me say, okay,
I've got to change the way I'mdoing things if I'm going to
(07:29):
take that next level in mycareer path.
Any like magic moments orgrowth mindset moments where you
were like, okay, I got to pivothere because what my normal
things that would maybe make mea successful salesperson aren't
kind of helping me in thisleadership trajectory.
Shane Evans (07:46):
You bet, let me give you a positive and a
negative, so one really positiveand I love I hope what you're
laying down right now is just sovaluable for people that are
early in their career trying tofind a way to get ahead around,
recognizing when you're gettingdefensive or recognizing when
you're feeling yourself going tothe place where you want to
become like proving a point andyou mentioned showing off as
(08:09):
well.
Any of these indicators, Ithink, put us in a situation
where we're not going to do ourbest work because we're in our
ego state, where we're justtrying to look good or get ahead
as opposed to helping the teamwin.
And where you get ahead is whenyou really are focused on
what's best for the team and howdo we help the team win in this
situation and so successful?
I'll start first.
Early in my career I wasworking for a payments company
(08:31):
and I had a chance to work inevery department.
There's a whole series ofevents that led me down this
path, but I was in collections,customer service, operations,
even in the R&D or theinnovation team and I finally
decided I wanted to go intosales Because I've worked in
every department, I had thisincredible connection with
people and I had empathy forwhat they were trying to do and
(08:54):
I knew the product better thananybody, and so I was able to
hit the ground running.
Because of those that trust Ihad been able to create and the
empathy that I had Fast forwarddecades later in my career I go
into a new company.
I'm a new executive, the team isunderperforming and there's
another executive that's beenthere for a while and I find
myself getting into argumentswith this executive about
(09:16):
something as silly as pipelineattribution, like who's getting
credit for what, and webasically wasted a good quarter
trying to argue about who wasright.
And then the end of the day, werealized wait a second, we both
want the same thing.
Why do we care who's gettingthe credit?
And yet we wasted weeks andended up being months trying to
figure out, like who is going toget credit for attribution.
(09:38):
And so those are two momentswhere one I had great empathy,
great trust and relationships.
The other one I came in.
I did not spend the timegetting to know the team.
I was more focused on mysuccess and how I looked and how
I was showing up versus how theteam was showing up.
What's funny is the latter onewas later in my career.
You would think that by thattime I would have figured that
(09:59):
out.
But I think every day you needto check yourself and figure out
OK, where am I at today?
Like I would have figured thatout.
But I think every day you needto check yourself and figure out
okay, where am I at today, like, am I trying to help the team
or am I trying to optimize formy own individual?
success, and the latter is justa dangerous place for us to play
.
Rick Smolen (10:12):
Yeah, so today, though, you now have a global
sales leadership team.
Frankly, revenue leadershipteam, revenue leadership team Is
there a framework, shane, thatyou use to either identify or to
manage your team today within aleadership framework?
Shane Evans (10:31):
Yeah, you bet.
Two comments here.
On the front end, I think, as asales leader today, our average
tenure is 18 months, not to putanyone in a bad place, but
you've got a short window whereyou have to have an impact if
you want to be around in thatcompany for a long term.
And so when you come in, Ithink it's critical that you get
everybody aligned andunderstanding what it is you
(10:52):
want to accomplish, which meansyou're going to need to have
some form of a framework toarticulate what it is you're
trying to accomplish.
And so, as I think about theframework that I use today, I'll
describe it for you in apyramid form.
The very top of the pyramid isthe overall vision and the
objective.
So for us at Gong today I'll bevery transparent it's a billion
(11:13):
dollars in ARR.
That's what we've set the markof what we want to get to in
annual recurring revenue.
The second layer of the pillaris really around objectives or
initiatives that we want toaccomplish as a team, and what I
found is that a larger team orthe organization can only handle
about three to five objectiveseach year.
(11:33):
These are like the big thingsthat you want to accomplish,
which, if you did them, it wouldlead to significant success for
that broader team, tosignificant success for that
broader team.
The third layer, as we comedown, is really about operating
principles, operating rhythms sothink about metrics, processes,
how you're gonna run yourweekly cadences, your monthly
(11:53):
cadences with the team.
The operating rhythm.
And then the foundational layer, or the bottom layer, really is
about people and it's aboutgetting the right people.
It's about developing, gettingthe right people.
It's about developinginternally the right folks so
you can be ready for that nextlevel.
If you want to progress in yourcareer, you will only be able
to advance as much as you'reable to get the people below you
(12:15):
to scale, and so it ends upbeing super critical that you're
able to get the team ready forscale as you progress.
So those are kind of the fourlayers that I use today.
Rick Smolen (12:27):
One that I always get a lot of value out of
hearing from others is aroundtheir cadence.
So as you start to get into aplace in your career where
there's too many people for youto have success in a one-to-one
dimension, you now need to say,okay, how do I work more
successfully in a one-to-many?
(12:48):
And so you do.
Come up with this sort ofoperating rhythm or the cadence
of like how meetings happen, sothat we can minimize internal
collaboration, maximize customerimpact and do all that type of
thing.
How would you describe thecadence of how you'll run?
You know your revenue functionstoday and maybe you know any
(13:10):
sort of learnings that havehelped in how you've iterated on
that.
Shane Evans (13:14):
So one thing I think people are ashamed or kind
of scared to admit when you getpromoted to your first
management job, it typicallydoesn't come with a user manual
for how to do that job.
And so you're going from whathas been a very transactional,
where you're managing a book ora territory, to what needs to
(13:35):
become more strategic, ideally,and sometimes people struggle
with knowing how to make thatleap and make that jump.
And so what we found is puttingtogether some basic
recommendations on your daily,weekly, monthly rhythm as a
frontline leader that will helpyou be successful.
And this goes like incrediblysimple.
So weekly, one on ones witheach member of your team, a
(13:57):
weekly forecasting or a huddlewith your team to both
acknowledge what's going welland to identify where there's
challenges, and to share somewind stories.
And we think about theenvironment we're in, where most
companies are in some form of ahybrid work environment.
We're not coming together asfrequently as we used to, so
this need for people to be evenbetter aligned than they have
(14:19):
been in the past is critical.
I would also say on a monthlybasis, it's identifying what are
the times you're going to cometogether with the other
departments and teams to figureout how you can better support
and work well with one another.
And then, on a quarterly basis,the one that is really important
is what I call the coachingplan or the improvement plan on
what, as a leader, you're goingto help your team focus on, and
(14:41):
it's very simple you pick two orthree things that are doing
well and two or three things youwant them to focus and work on
and make it easy, and then givethem examples and make sure
you're providing the coaching asyou roll forward.
And, as I think about anoperating rhythm, if you do
nothing else as far as structuregoes, if you can nail the daily
, weekly, monthly, quarterlyrhythm, it will lead over and
(15:05):
over again to consistent resultsbecause you're showing up with
consistency for the team, and Ithink that's what a lot of
first-time leaders reallystruggle with Now.
You can then roll that up tosecond, third, fourth line
leadership.
The motions and the cadencedoesn't change that much as far
as having a reoccurring routinethat you can get into.
That leads to incredibleoutcomes the way that you
consistently deliver on thatover and over again.
Rick Smolen (15:28):
Shane, as a leader, you're not able to be inside
the different one-on-ones andyou're not in the huddles where
they're coming up with theforecast.
And maybe you're, on occasionyou're on a monthly
cross-functional meeting to sortof participate and even assess
what's going on across an areawithin the business.
Do you like what's the point orthe area in which you are I
(15:51):
don't want to say inspecting,but maybe that's partial of it
like observing the operatingrhythm in motion.
Like, for example, are youreviewing the coaching plans
that come through on a quarterlybasis or are there other ways
that you're looking across howto provide coaching to your
leaders on how to execute thesethings?
Shane Evans (16:12):
So what I found.
This is somewhat of a cheatcode that I have.
So at Gong, we capture everyinteraction and I'm able to set
smart trackers.
So, even though I can't be inevery meeting, I'm able to tag
when someone says, hey, yourteam's amazing or your team did
a great job here, I get alertsand I'm able to follow back up
with the team.
So, even though I'm not inevery call or every meeting, I
(16:33):
found ways to extend what I cando.
Now, if I don't have a tool ortechnology one of the tools that
I've used in the past for tipsand tricks I've asked leaders to
help give me a nudge when theysee something great, so that I
can be present for good thingsthat are happening.
Because, at the end of the day,we still all want feedback.
As human beings, as creaturesof habit, we want to hear what
(16:55):
we're doing well, and we needthat reinforcement behavior, and
so that's one thing that Ifound works very well.
The other tip I would givefolks is the ability to find
coaching opportunities, and sothis is where you need to get
consistent and regular feedback.
The big unlock for me in mycareer I mentioned earlier one
was empathy.
(17:15):
The second thing that I wouldpoint to is the desire for
consistent and undilutedfeedback, and it can be hard to
hear sometimes, but if you canget feedback from frontline
staff, frontline leaders, onwhat things are going well and
what things need to be improvedupon, you're gonna find you have
a much better finger of thepulse of what's happening and
you're in the know of what'sgoing on across the business.
(17:38):
And sometimes we're almostafraid to ask because we don't
want to run the risk that thingsmight not be going as well as
we, the business, and sometimeswe're almost afraid to ask
because we don't want to run therisk that things might not be
going as well as they as wethink they are in our head,
which, again to what you said atthe outset, that's like this
dangerous place we get into oflike brainwashing ourselves that
hey, everything's good and youknow, la la land, uh, I don't
have to deal with all theseproblems if I'm not hearing
about them, there are problems,and the faster that you can get
(18:01):
to them, the if I'm not hearingabout them, there are problems,
and the faster that you can getto them, the faster that you can
treat them even though you'renot in the room, the better off
your team will be and the betterthe performance will end up
becoming in the end.
So that desire to seekconsistent feedback and to have
these truth signals that arecoming at you, both positive and
constructive, really allows youto be extensible and not have
(18:22):
to be in the room for everysingle meeting.
But it requires this web ofconnective tissue, this
ecosystem of leaders that feelcomfortable that hey, even if
it's bad or not so great news, Ican pick up the phone, I can
have a very direct conversationwith Shane and he's going to
help me.
He's going to like, help mework through that, not say don't
bring me bad news or shut medown because it may not be the
(18:43):
news that that person's lookingfor.
Rick Smolen (18:45):
So just unpacking what you just described.
So the first it sounds likeyou've been very purposeful
about fostering an environmentof recognition, whether it's
through like trackers or like ifsomebody's doing something
exceptional, I want to knowabout it, and it is one of the
most underutilized tools andit's probably the least
expensive because it's justrecognition.
(19:07):
But being purposeful aboutrecognition, boy, do salespeople
in particular sort ofappreciate being recognized.
And so, while, yes, we're allcoin operated, to some extent,
just that level of appreciationsounds like that is a big
motivating and driving force.
And I do agree that you need tobe purposeful about identifying
opportunities to conductrecognition.
(19:29):
The second point you weretalking about is sort of
creating an environment ofcandor and having these coaching
opportunities, and I, you knowthe story I told is the same
thing.
Like I got coaching, whether Iwanted it or not, and it rocked
my world a little bit but led meto get better.
I'm wondering about like it'sone thing to say cool, you
should be giving feedback, youshould be seeking feedback and
(19:52):
you should be appreciating itand getting it.
Is there like any examplesrecently?
Like I think about this for mycurrent team, I have a
leadership team and I want tohelp them all improve, and I
believe that they want toimprove.
I struggle with the balancebetween supporting them like,
hey, what are you trying to getdone?
How can I help you?
And then evaluating them andsaying, hey, I'm observing some
(20:13):
things that could be goingbetter.
Or hey, on this front, likehiring is super important, I
think it needs to be, you know,elevated in terms of its urgency
.
You know, I think for you to beeffective, you've got to
accelerate or prioritize more ofyour time on that.
How do you find that balance ofdetermining what to actually
coach on and then deliveringthat feedback which, you know,
(20:36):
like, like, our words have heavyweight, so we got to be careful
what we say, you know.
Shane Evans (20:41):
Yeah, great, great.
Such a great question.
So two things.
One, I'm a parent.
I've got four kids.
One of the things I've learnedis that modeling is so powerful,
and so if you want a culture offeedback, if you want to be
able to give that feedback, youhave to be able to receive that
feedback.
So that means one asking for itand making it safe where people
(21:03):
feel like they can be honestwith you, and then the power
move.
Here, the unlock code issharing that feedback with the
team.
So being vulnerable andtransparent enough to say hey,
team, I got some feedback, I'veinternalized that, here's some
things I'm going to work on.
And when you start showing upthat way, it actually creates an
environment where people Ifound are much more willing to
(21:24):
be like, hey, give me some ofthat feedback.
Like, I want to hear undiluted.
Now there will still be somefolks that aren't as open.
And so the other thing I foundI'm not a big believer in give
like three positive, onenegative or seven positive and
two negative, like these oldschool methodologies of like
trying to like give a little bitof sugar before you smack them
in the face.
What I found works best is begenuine, be transparent, be
(21:48):
authentic with people.
Hey, I need to give you somefeedback.
Are you in a place where youcan actually hear this?
If not, like let's find anothertime.
But I think, by setting it up,I'm about to give you some real
talk, and I think it's okay tosay look, I'm doing this because
I want you to improve and Ineed you to continue to raise
your game, and I think thiswould really help you If it's
(22:08):
coming from a place of beinggenuine.
Yes, words matter immensely,but people are going to feel if
you care about them and ifyou're showing up in an
authentic way in order to beable to receive that feedback.
And so, if you want to havethat environment, you need to be
authentic, and then you need tofind ways to deliver that in a
very concise and direct manner.
Rick Smolen (22:32):
We've both entered new organizations and what I'm
reflecting on is you've got toearn this trust.
You've got to earn thatrelationship where we can model
the behavior in terms of askingfor feedback and being
vulnerable, about sharing it,and we've got to earn the
(22:53):
relationship where what we'resaying is being interpreted as
coming from a good place and I,you know, as I reflect back, I'm
like huh, what was those firstseveral months like?
As it relates to earning trust,as it relates to like
solidifying your position as aleader, so that people felt like
(23:14):
, hey, this is an environmentthat I can say what's on my mind
and I can get feedback.
And it's like well-intendedLike what do you share with
folks?
Many folks right now arejoining new organizations.
There's been a lot of like thattype of thing happening in tech
, if somebody's entering a neworganization.
Or, as you reflect back on yourown experiences, what do you
think like to establish thattype of trust where these
(23:36):
authentic, real conversationscan happen?
Is there anything that'sparticularly worked for you?
Shane Evans (23:42):
Let me talk about coming into Gong, because that's
super relevant recently and Ihad a few key learnings that
helped me.
I'm a big believer in firstteam principles and, for those
that haven't read the book, patLescioni wrote a book the Five
Dysfunctions of a Team and oneof the things he talks about in
there is your first team.
A lot of people coming intoorganizations feel like their
first team is the people thatreport to them, but the reality
(24:03):
is your first team is your peers, the people that you usually
interact with on a weekly basis,and so, coming into a new
organization, it's imperativethat you spend the right amount
of time up front getting to knowthat team.
So when I came to Gong, we havea big R&D operation in Tel Aviv
, israel my second week with thecompany I flew over there and
(24:25):
spent the whole week with thatteam.
So I didn't go out and visitcustomers.
I didn't go and visit sellersout in the field, even though
that was the team that I wasmanaging directly.
I went and spent time with ourR&D organization and the
leadership in that team and thenI went on a tour and did that
with other teams and I made abig investment on my first team
as the starting place to try andmake sure that I had context
(24:47):
for what was happening.
Now, when I start working withmy team, I've got a much better
sense of what's actually goingon, and I think a lot of people,
when they come into the company, they feel this immense
pressure to win their team over.
But I don't think that you cando that until you win over your
peer group and you have theirrespect.
And I can also share a fewexamples where I've gone into
(25:08):
companies and just wanted todeliver results so desperately
that I go right to customers andright to the sellers and what
you find is that they'rewatching you out of one eye when
everyone else is looking at howyou're going to show up, and
it's going to take you weeks, ifnot months, before you start
actually seeing some of thoseresults come to bear.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that you work
cross-functionally when you'recoming into a new organization
(25:30):
to start to build that trust.
And again I'll come back tojust kind of finish where I
started.
It's the first team principlesthat I have found that really
matter, really understand whoyour first team is and where you
need to build that trust andcredibility.
And it's not to say that yourdirect reports don't matter.
They matter immensely, butthey're going to see what you're
doing to help remove obstaclesand roadblocks and help them be
(25:52):
successful.
And so it does show up in thatway and roadblocks and help them
be successful.
Rick Smolen (25:57):
And so it does show up in that way.
You know, it's really funny.
I don't know that I've everreally truly connected the dots
on this, where I've alwaysbelieved that your, you know,
like I believe that your firstteam is your peer set and not
the organization, but it's solike that in my mind has become
a bit of a throwaway line,because I think what that
actually means is really tough.
(26:17):
It's actually really tough toput that into practice.
I also used to, I learned, youknow, years ago that, like, the
first 30 days at a companyshould be about establishing
relationships.
When the temptation is so highon you know, digging into the
pipeline, making an impact,everything's leading you to do
(26:37):
what you were hired to do.
I always found it tough.
What does it mean to establishrelationships?
Does it mean I could get acoffee with everybody and learn
about their hobbies?
Just having these meetings withyour peers alone isn't
sufficient.
You gotta, like, have astrategy about how to how to
establish relationships in aproductive way.
(26:59):
I love this example of spendinga week with the r d team.
That is so counter intuitive towhat most leaders would do,
guilty like.
I've established good rapportwith the engineering
organization at most of thecompanies that I've been at,
mostly because I just admire andrespect how much, how smart
they are and how much of animpact they have on our
organization's success.
(27:20):
But to roll up your sleeves andsay, yo, I want to actually get
in and better understand whatyou're doing.
The few times that I've donethat, the returns have been
massive.
I mean like, like, and yet ourinertia makes that so hard to do
.
So you have to really createthe space.
Was there anything inparticular with these other
functions that, like you didthat helped truly establish the
(27:42):
relationship?
Because, look, they'reappreciative that you came over
and did that, but you're stilllike the revenue guy.
You know you're not like one ofthem.
Like what?
How do you like, how do you gettactical about actually
building that rapport with R&D,with finance, with legal, with
these other functions that youknow we partner with but we're
not, like, directly responsiblefor?
Shane Evans (28:02):
I read a book years ago called the first 90 days,
and there's a thought in therethat has stuck with me
throughout my career, and theanalogy they give is anytime you
take on a new role or positionor you get promoted within a
company, the first 90 days aregoing to be the critical time in
which you set the trajectoryfor what you're going to be able
to accomplish in that role.
And so you think about a bulletbeing fired out of a gun.
(28:24):
Whatever trajectory you aimthat at is going to be how high
you can get, and so if youinvest heavily in other teams
and departments right out of thegate, it actually raises the
trajectory of what you canaccomplish versus having that be
flat, and so that's something.
Whenever we hire anyone, Ialways tell them hey, you're not
going to get this first 90 daysback, you're going to get
sucked into pipeline, you'regoing to get sucked into fires
(28:45):
and problems.
So resist the temptation to getinto the business and focus on
relationships with people andthe product, so you really can
understand what we're all aboutas a company, because it will
allow you to be way moreeffective.
And so now what ends uphappening?
I'll give you two tips.
Every interview I do the firstquestion I ask people and this
(29:06):
is a cheat code for anyone thatwatches this and ends up
interviewing with me in thefuture my first question is take
two minutes and tell me aboutyourself outside of work Hobbies
, family interests that you haveon the weekend, like nothing
work related.
And it's what I found even whenI went over and I mentioned I
met with the R&D team.
My first question was give metwo minutes on you outside of
(29:27):
work, and if you were sittinghere, I'd be taking copious
notes because I want to get toknow them, and it's one of those
where, when people know howmuch you care, it totally
changes what they're willing todo for you.
And so again, it goes back tobeing genuine, being authentic.
It's actually slowing down alittle bit on the front end to
go a lot faster, and we're stillhuman beings.
(29:48):
We still want to haveinterpersonal relationships with
one another, but I still do thesame thing as I meet with
people get to know them asindividuals.
And then the next piece I getinto is where can I help you be
successful?
What can I help you to do?
Maybe it's something with mydirect reports, maybe it's
something with a process that wehave, and so now I'm trying not
(30:09):
only to build a relationship,but I'm trying to say how can I
make your life better?
And you'll be amazed at theamount of input that they're
going to give you.
And now the doors are opened up.
So in the future, back to beingeyes on, hands on.
You now have advocates that arewilling to bring stuff to you
because they know that you areapproachable and that you're
genuine, that you want to help,and so those are a couple of
things that have helped me asI've come into Gong.
(30:31):
And I've come into Gong andthis is back to you know, the
top end little, little tips I'velearned throughout my career on
having to enter in differentsituations, but I think those
are things that have reallyhelped me find success earlier
by being focused onrelationships, focused on what
matters to people and what'sgoing to help them win and be
successful.
Rick Smolen (30:51):
Yeah, I got it.
Like, I will say that, like, ifI take anything away from this
conversation, it's like I couldbe doing such a better job of
this cross-functionalrelationship development,
especially parts of the org thatlike just don't directly
connect to sales, marketing andCS but are equally important
(31:14):
sales, marketing and CS, but areequally important, and all the
evidence suggests that whatyou're saying is 1,000% accurate
, and yet, if you aren'tpurposeful about it, it will
never happen, which so that isthe thing.
It's just not gonna show up.
You actually have to go do thatwork, go take the initiative to
kinda make that happen, and Ithink, even if you're not new,
(31:34):
it's really not too late tostart to do that.
But Shane, what about thebuilding, trust and rapport
within that?
You know your supervisory, youknow environment or organization
.
Shane Evans (31:50):
So this goes back to the framework that you and I
were talking about, and there'sa communications component here,
when you articulate theinitiatives that you're gonna be
focused on.
Solet's go back to the framework
that you and I were talkingabout, and there's a
communications component here,when you articulate the
initiatives that you're going tobe focused on.
So let's go back to you'restarting a new role.
You're a new revenue leader.
You've got to spend time to getto know where the priorities
are and get alignment from otherpeers.
Hey, this is where I think weshould be focused.
Are you supportive as you thenget your team's input on
(32:11):
that?
Make sure they have a chance toform and challenge what you
think the initiatives are.
There's a whole communicationstrategy around this to make
sure you get it right.
not only are they usually notthere physically, but even when
(32:34):
they are, they're probably notthere emotionally, meaning
they're multitasking.
So what you're sharing?
I can't tell you how manyleaders I've worked for that
have told me hey, everyoneunderstands our vision.
Everyone understands thestrategy because they've said it
over and over again, and you'llfind when you're in these
leadership roles that you haveto repeat things 7, 10, 20 times
before it even starts toregister.
(32:56):
And so I think that's where,when you talk about getting the
trust of your team, I had amentor and a close friend I
worked with and he used thisanalogy of painting a barn, and
if you really want to paint abarn, well, you have to saturate
it, like it's not one coat ofpaint.
And so he'd always remind ushey, that was a first coat of
paint or a third coat of paint.
We're going to need like 20coats of paint on this thing
before people are going toreally start to see that it is
(33:18):
red, and you would think thatpeople would just see it and get
it.
But it requires that repetition, that reminder, and so I think,
when it comes to your internalteam, it's really about gaining
alignment by getting input andfeedback and then communicate,
communicate, communicate.
People are hungry for context.
I've made a lot of missteps asI've come into different
companies and trying to drivechange and not getting people
(33:41):
bought in to understand the whybehind the change.
And then, as you try and go anddrive that change if you don't
have people bought into it.
It just makes it so much harder.
It just takes more time for youto get where you want to go.
Rick Smolen (33:52):
And so if you can really figure out the best way
to communicate and it's usuallynot just like one mode or medium
it needs to be written verbal,like all hands meetings, like as
you think about a calm strategy.
It needs to be multi-prongedbecause people aren't gonna get
it in one mode.
I wish I could tell you like,hey, slack is the answer or Zoom
is the answer.
(34:12):
But it requires multi-mode andthe repetition to make sure that
people know what you're tryingto accomplish.
And that's when you start toget people's trust, when they
start to see that you'recommunicating, that you've got
alignment and the results follow.
I think that's where you startto get that, that mass adoption
or at least mass understandingof what it is you're trying to
achieve as a leader yeah, I meanin roles it really becomes.
(34:34):
How do I get really good atrepetition and one-to-many
communications?
And it isn't just one medium.
Email is good, some people liketo read.
A video on.
Slack is good, some people liketo watch it and feel that
connection to you In all hands.
An interactive environment,some people like that.
So you've got too big of a teamto have just one mechanism to do
that.
I almost feel like as seniorleaders, we should be
(34:55):
accountable to some level ofone-to-many communication and
you almost look back at the endof the week and be like hey, did
I communicate out to this orgthis week, or did I get bogged
down in meetings and reactive tostuff?
Did I take the time to actuallyshare a couple top-of-mind
things that are happening tomake people feel more connected?
Again, it takes intent but andit's not intuitive Like
(35:19):
repeating yourself over and overagain feels weird, but you know
, to get it to sink in.
I like the paint, the layers ofpaint, as a great analogy to
reinforce that.
Shane, just to close things outhere, as you're developing your
leadership team, like today,are there any sort of things
that are top of mind right nowthat you are seeing in new and
developing leaders that areworking, as it relates to
(35:42):
building better leaders, bettercoaches, better business
planners.
Shane Evans (35:46):
You bet.
I will say I think that ourenvironment has become much more
challenging.
So if we were competing in aflat race with like 50 degrees
weather, where there's no realheat or cold extremes and it's
just flat, we're cruising along,we've gone to an environment
it's hilly, temperatures are upand down all over the place, and
(36:07):
it's just become a lot morechallenging.
And so you think about athletesor performers that want to put
their best output, and theconditions have shifted
drastically.
It requires a completelydifferent mindset, and then
physical readiness, and what Imean by that and we think about
that in terms of business andleadership it means that we need
to continue to be aware ofwhere we are, have strengths,
(36:31):
where we have weaknesses andwhat it's going to take to
succeed in this new environment.
And I have a lot of team memberstoday that have come to me
recently.
This is both at Gong and at theprevious companies I've been at
and have shared a little bit offrustration around.
Hey, I'm burned out, like I'vegot nothing left to give, and so
I do think there's an elementhere of pacing.
I think there's an element hereof finding boundaries that you
(36:54):
need to set up in order to beeffective, and so leaders want
to be successful.
They so desperately want tosucceed that quite often, they
work too many hours.
A lot of what I'm seeing rightnow what we're trying to focus
on with our leaders is it getsback to some of the fundamentals
(37:15):
around how do you prioritizeyour day, how do you set up
boundaries on what you are ableto do and what you're not able
to do, and then how do you helpyour team become more effective?
There's this element ofdelegation and of knowing how
and where to help, and thenletting people fail and then
giving them coaching, and whatI'm finding is that this
(37:36):
environment has changedsignificantly, and so there's
different skills that we areneeding to focus and hone in
order to help people findsuccess and do it in a way
that's not going to cause themto have this miss or imbalance
of, like professional andpersonal lives, because I'm a
big believer that if you're ableto get away and recharge,
you're going to be way moreeffective, and a lot of that has
(37:56):
to do with prioritization,boundaries and then finding time
to recharge.
Notice, I'm not talking to youabout like skills, like
communication or deal reviews ordiscovery.
It really is back to personalwell-being and personal health,
because we have a lot ofmotivated folks I don't think
this is unique to us and theconditions have shifted
(38:19):
drastically, where what it takesto succeed today is very
different than what it took even12 months ago.
And so, being aware of yourconditions around you and
setting yourself up in a waythat allows you to be successful
, that's where we're spending alot of time with our leaders
today to make sure that they canfind the best version of
themselves that allow them toperform at their optimal rate
and pace
Rick Smolen (38:58):
How does that show up?
more about what I'm doing in mypersonal life, from like when
I'm taking vacation and what I'mdoing so that I'm again
modeling that behavior andencouraging them to do the same.
I'm telling them hey, look,between these hours in the
morning, this is my workout time.
That's sacred to me.
If you're someone who likes toread, if you're someone who
(39:20):
likes to do yoga or breathing,like, you need to set that time
and like, respect it.
And so I think there's somepersonal things that we're
talking to them about what theyneed to be doing, and then
there's also professional thingsaround.
Hey, there's certain things youcan control, and then there's
uncontrollables.
Let's get prioritized on thecontrollables, and so it goes
back to operating rhythm.
Like you can't control everydeal and the outcome for every
(39:42):
deal, but you can control theway you set up cadences with the
team on how you're going tohelp them find success, and so I
think those are two differentways in which we look at both
the personal and theprofessional to help them get
what they're after and to findsuccess.
Shane, I just want to thank youas I reflect on some of the
things that we talked abouttoday.
I think one just like thatstands out to me is that
(40:05):
modeling behavior, and likeyou're only as good of a leader
as you're as good as a leaderand so modeling the behavior of
what that is is so powerful.
And the other thing that'sreally standing with me is like
it's not just that you'reonboarding in the beginning, but
like the relationship that youestablish cross-functionally,
the relationship that youestablish cross-functionally at
the end of the day.
This is all like a series oflike any issues within a company
(40:27):
or almost always comes back to,like the humans involved and so
like.
When you build those realrelationships with somebody, it
doesn't matter about theattribution and what we're
fighting over.
All the things the conflicts,the obstacles get so much more
easily dealt with.
Those are the top two thingsthat I feel like I can take away
and continue to work on.
I just want to thank you, shane, for joining us today on Pillar
(40:47):
Talk.
I look forward to speaking withyou again soon.
Rick, thanks for the time.
It's great to spend time withyou today and I learned some
things that helped me focuswhere I need to be.
So love spending the time.
Look forward to doing it againin the future, thank you.
Reflecting on the conversationwe just had with Shane Evans.
(41:10):
The first thing I take awayfrom the conversation is how
Shane entered Gong and heexecuted successfully on advice
that so many receive and so fewfollow.
That advice is to use the firstfew weeks of your time at a
company to build relationships,and I give that advice all the
time.
I mean it.
It's good advice, but it'sgeneric and broad.
Everyone agrees with it.
(41:31):
Oh yeah, of course, and ofcourse some effort is made.
But the instinctive thing to dois to get to know everyone on
your team and to dive in and tolearn and to attempt to make an
impact.
There's just so much momentumpushing for that.
In fact, that's what you werejust hired to do.
But Shane told a story ofholding off on that instinct and
establishing a truerelationship with his peers and
(41:54):
doing that successfully.
Now think about it.
If he didn't do it, then whenwould he be?
able to.
Shane Evans (42:00):
Shane was only a few weeks away from being truly
in his role and having thetsunami of responsibility
surround him.
It's going to be reallydifficult to build true
relationships with partnerorganizations at that point in
time, but he did the upfrontwork around it and my belief and
bet is that his success in theorganization has been amplified
by that early, correct andcounterintuitive step.
(42:22):
We can all learn from that.
The second takeaway for me frommy conversation with Shane is
around overcommunication.
He shared a great analogy thatcommunicating to a large group
is like painting the roof of abarn red and that in reality it
takes 20 coats of paint to getthat red to shine.
We need to get our messageacross over and over and through
(42:44):
more than one medium to beheard by the team.
This is also counterintuitivefor leaders.
Once news has been shared or adecision has been made and
communicated, one thinks thatthe team has received it and
took it in and is now operatingon the premise of what was
shared.
But in reality people oftenneed to hear things many times
(43:04):
for it to stick.
And while counterintuitive todo, shane shared that doing so
has built a lot of trust, andtrust with our teams is a place
we would all want to get to, hasbuilt a lot of trust, and trust
with our teams is a place wewould all want to get to.
Lastly, I'm taking away whatShane shared about modeling
behavior as a leader.
He gives feedback, he's open toreceiving feedback, he learns
(43:25):
about the person, not just theemployee.
He shared multiple examples ofacting as a leader and it's a
reminder to me that the simplestway to leadership success is to
be a leader.
Now remember, mediocrity is thedefault setting.
I want to thank Shane Evans forbeing our guest this week.
I want to thank Ari Smolin forproducing those amazing tunes
(43:47):
you're hearing.
That's Isla Young and Songs ofSummer.
Thanks for listening to PillarTalk.
We will see you next time.
Rick Smolen (43:53):
Take it easy.
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of Pillar Talk.
This is the podcast where webuild the foundations of sales
leadership success and attemptto create clarity in terms of
what good looks like for currentand aspiring sales leaders.
We are lucky today to be joinedby Shane Evans.
Shane Evans is the CRO of Gong,one of the most popular and
(00:34):
most loved sales software outthere, one that I particularly
had a lot of positiveexperiences with.
So, Shane, really glad to haveyou join us.
Shane has extensive leadershipexperience, not just in sales
but executive level experiencecompanies that everyone's heard
of, like Qualtrics, MX, TalkDeskand Gong today.
So, Shane, thank you so muchfor joining Pillar Talk.
Shane Evans (01:10):
So thank you for all the great work that you're
doing and inspiring others toraise their game, in a manner of
speaking.
Yeah, you know, I started thisShane, where I was a successful
individual contributor, and Ithen moved into sales leadership
and for years I was trying tofigure out, like how do I become
a good sales leader?
As an individual contributor,all I had to do was close more
deals, so it was very easy forme to have a barometer of
(01:30):
whether I'm succeeding or not.
As I've evolved as a leader, Ikept wondering, like am I having
a positive impact?
Am I having a negative impacton the team?
I'm sure there were situationswhen both of those statements
were true at one time or another.
As time has passed, I'm nowgetting further and further away
from the daily customerconversation and I'm continuing
(01:53):
to try to figure out, like howdo we have the most impact as
sales leaders?
So I developed these pillarsfrom talent acquisition and
hiring, operating rhythm andfostering motivation and
engagement across a wider teambusiness planning.
So much of what we end updealing with if we don't play
our cards right is reactivesituations.
(02:14):
So-and-so has resigned.
How are we going to go backfillthat position In a high growth
environment?
You can't work that way,because you've just lost six
months of quota, as an example,and that's just one example of
so many where you need to bereally strong in terms of your
cross-functional collaborationso that you can make decisions
today that'll have an impact inlike six or nine months.
(02:37):
Of course, there's coaching andmastering the craft, and then
there's these like meta onesaround communication and like
how to be excellent atcommunication in a world where
we're more remote.
And then there's an evolutionaround ownership and how, like
do I need to be told what to door do I take the initiative?
Or also balance between likehey, am I all about my team and
(02:59):
advocating for them, or am Ifinding the balance with like
the team needs as well as thebusiness, and having to try to
find the right place, you know,on the continuum there.
So these are the pillars thatI've come up with so far, and
I'm always trying to learn howto be better at each individual
one.
Shane, the first question Imight pose for you is simply,
(03:20):
you know to rise up and be theCRO of one of the most
prestigious you know SaaScompanies out there are
certainly one of my favorites ingong, like, what do you think
was the, the strength in yourindividual sales leadership that
helped lead you to that.
You know ultimate destinationyeah, what's.
What's really cool, rick, is acareer is a collection of micro
experiences that you end uphaving in a multitude of
(03:42):
different positions throughout anumber of years, and sometimes
it spans over decades.
And so to try and point to likeone moment that I felt like it
was the difference maker, itwould be dang near impossible.
I've got a close mentor and afriend who unfortunately is no
longer with us, but one of hiseuphisms that he used to offer
was it requires a truckload oflead.
There are no silver bullets,and I think a career is very
(04:05):
similar.
It doesn't matter where youfind yourself.
There's moments every singleday where there's learning and
there's growth and there'speople around you.
Sometimes they're super helpful, other times they present some
growth opportunities what I liketo call them where you can use
that as an opportunity to getbetter.
And so, if I were to sum allthat up, you know, the one thing
that's been a passion of mineis to always have a growth
(04:26):
mindset, and it doesn't matterthe circumstance.
You could be ahead in the gameby 20 points and up, or you
could be down by 20 points andfeeling like you're about to
just get walked out of thebuilding.
And yet, if you always havethat mindset of this is a
learning opportunity.
I think that's what can leadyou to great places.
And the last thing I'll say hereearly in my career, I've always
been a planner.
(04:47):
I've always been verygoal-oriented and I'm very
impatient.
That's part of the downside tomy personality, and I had to
learn early on that you can'tchart a linear path for where
you want to get.
And so if you were to try andsay, hey, how did you arrive at
Gong?
I have four kids, I tell themall the time I never woke up one
morning and thought, man, Iwant to be in tech sales.
(05:08):
It was just opportunities keptopening up, doors kept opening
and I would look and evaluate isthis a growth opportunity?
Can this help me become abetter version of myself today?
And so that mindset has allowedme to take on some incredible
opportunities and it's led me toGong, which is just an
incredible company with anamazing team.
I feel so fortunate to have theopportunity to work with this
(05:31):
group today and I would say thatthere's no one moment.
It's just having that growthmindset and being ready, when an
opportunity presents itself, totake advantage of it and learn
as much as you possibly can inthat moment.
Rick Smolen (05:45):
Yeah, I guess when I hear you talk about being a
planner, being goal-oriented andimpatient, it reminds me of a
story like a magic moment in mycareer, where I learned that the
path I was on or the track Iwas taking wasn't going to get
me to where I wanted to go.
I was on an internationalassignment, so I was 12 time
zones away and the way I wasinteracting with a co-worker
(06:06):
that was in New York while I wasin Asia, it was a little bit of
me one-upping them and I had anew leader come into the
organization and maybe I waseven showing off a little bit.
Now I'm supposed to be a prettysenior leader in the
organization and so one-uppingsomebody that's like junior and
showing off for like a newleader are not necessarily the
attributes of a super successfulleader, and I don't even think
(06:27):
I realized it at the time.
Now a new leader came into theorganization and had been being
CC'd on that.
I thought their reaction wasgoing to be impressed.
At all my knowledge, theirreaction was like hey, I
actually don't think you're asenior leader at this company
and we probably should talkabout that, which based on.
My expectation going into thatmeeting was shocking and it was
(06:48):
probably some of the bestfeedback that I ever got, where
you know, it simply relayed that.
What I observed in thatsituation was you know these
things that you were doing andnot necessarily helping the
business with all the knowledgethat you have, and if you want
to be a senior leader, you needto be thinking about how your
communication is going to comeoff to others.
(07:09):
And I think from that momentforward, that feedback was
instilled in me and that everycommunication especially when
I'm feeling in any way emotiveabout maybe not hearing news I
want to hear, or seeingsuboptimal execution out there,
that was like a magic moment forme that helped me say, okay,
I've got to change the way I'mdoing things if I'm going to
(07:29):
take that next level in mycareer path.
Any like magic moments orgrowth mindset moments where you
were like, okay, I got to pivothere because what my normal
things that would maybe make mea successful salesperson aren't
kind of helping me in thisleadership trajectory.
Shane Evans (07:46):
You bet, let me give you a positive and a
negative, so one really positiveand I love I hope what you're
laying down right now is just sovaluable for people that are
early in their career trying tofind a way to get ahead around,
recognizing when you're gettingdefensive or recognizing when
you're feeling yourself going tothe place where you want to
become like proving a point andyou mentioned showing off as
(08:09):
well.
Any of these indicators, Ithink, put us in a situation
where we're not going to do ourbest work because we're in our
ego state, where we're justtrying to look good or get ahead
as opposed to helping the teamwin.
And where you get ahead is whenyou really are focused on
what's best for the team and howdo we help the team win in this
situation and so successful?
I'll start first.
Early in my career I wasworking for a payments company
(08:31):
and I had a chance to work inevery department.
There's a whole series ofevents that led me down this
path, but I was in collections,customer service, operations,
even in the R&D or theinnovation team and I finally
decided I wanted to go intosales Because I've worked in
every department, I had thisincredible connection with
people and I had empathy forwhat they were trying to do and
(08:54):
I knew the product better thananybody, and so I was able to
hit the ground running.
Because of those that trust Ihad been able to create and the
empathy that I had Fast forwarddecades later in my career I go
into a new company.
I'm a new executive, the team isunderperforming and there's
another executive that's beenthere for a while and I find
myself getting into argumentswith this executive about
(09:16):
something as silly as pipelineattribution, like who's getting
credit for what, and webasically wasted a good quarter
trying to argue about who wasright.
And then the end of the day, werealized wait a second, we both
want the same thing.
Why do we care who's gettingthe credit?
And yet we wasted weeks andended up being months trying to
figure out, like who is going toget credit for attribution.
(09:38):
And so those are two momentswhere one I had great empathy,
great trust and relationships.
The other one I came in.
I did not spend the timegetting to know the team.
I was more focused on mysuccess and how I looked and how
I was showing up versus how theteam was showing up.
What's funny is the latter onewas later in my career.
You would think that by thattime I would have figured that
(09:59):
out.
But I think every day you needto check yourself and figure out
OK, where am I at today?
Like I would have figured thatout.
But I think every day you needto check yourself and figure out
okay, where am I at today, like, am I trying to help the team
or am I trying to optimize formy own individual?
success, and the latter is justa dangerous place for us to play
.
Rick Smolen (10:12):
Yeah, so today, though, you now have a global
sales leadership team.
Frankly, revenue leadershipteam, revenue leadership team Is
there a framework, shane, thatyou use to either identify or to
manage your team today within aleadership framework?
Shane Evans (10:31):
Yeah, you bet.
Two comments here.
On the front end, I think, as asales leader today, our average
tenure is 18 months, not to putanyone in a bad place, but
you've got a short window whereyou have to have an impact if
you want to be around in thatcompany for a long term.
And so when you come in, Ithink it's critical that you get
everybody aligned andunderstanding what it is you
(10:52):
want to accomplish, which meansyou're going to need to have
some form of a framework toarticulate what it is you're
trying to accomplish.
And so, as I think about theframework that I use today, I'll
describe it for you in apyramid form.
The very top of the pyramid isthe overall vision and the
objective.
So for us at Gong today I'll bevery transparent it's a billion
(11:13):
dollars in ARR.
That's what we've set the markof what we want to get to in
annual recurring revenue.
The second layer of the pillaris really around objectives or
initiatives that we want toaccomplish as a team, and what I
found is that a larger team orthe organization can only handle
about three to five objectiveseach year.
(11:33):
These are like the big thingsthat you want to accomplish,
which, if you did them, it wouldlead to significant success for
that broader team, tosignificant success for that
broader team.
The third layer, as we comedown, is really about operating
principles, operating rhythms sothink about metrics, processes,
how you're gonna run yourweekly cadences, your monthly
(11:53):
cadences with the team.
The operating rhythm.
And then the foundational layer, or the bottom layer, really is
about people and it's aboutgetting the right people.
It's about developing, gettingthe right people.
It's about developinginternally the right folks so
you can be ready for that nextlevel.
If you want to progress in yourcareer, you will only be able
to advance as much as you'reable to get the people below you
(12:15):
to scale, and so it ends upbeing super critical that you're
able to get the team ready forscale as you progress.
So those are kind of the fourlayers that I use today.
Rick Smolen (12:27):
One that I always get a lot of value out of
hearing from others is aroundtheir cadence.
So as you start to get into aplace in your career where
there's too many people for youto have success in a one-to-one
dimension, you now need to say,okay, how do I work more
successfully in a one-to-many?
(12:48):
And so you do.
Come up with this sort ofoperating rhythm or the cadence
of like how meetings happen, sothat we can minimize internal
collaboration, maximize customerimpact and do all that type of
thing.
How would you describe thecadence of how you'll run?
You know your revenue functionstoday and maybe you know any
(13:10):
sort of learnings that havehelped in how you've iterated on
that.
Shane Evans (13:14):
So one thing I think people are ashamed or kind
of scared to admit when you getpromoted to your first
management job, it typicallydoesn't come with a user manual
for how to do that job.
And so you're going from whathas been a very transactional,
where you're managing a book ora territory, to what needs to
(13:35):
become more strategic, ideally,and sometimes people struggle
with knowing how to make thatleap and make that jump.
And so what we found is puttingtogether some basic
recommendations on your daily,weekly, monthly rhythm as a
frontline leader that will helpyou be successful.
And this goes like incrediblysimple.
So weekly, one on ones witheach member of your team, a
(13:57):
weekly forecasting or a huddlewith your team to both
acknowledge what's going welland to identify where there's
challenges, and to share somewind stories.
And we think about theenvironment we're in, where most
companies are in some form of ahybrid work environment.
We're not coming together asfrequently as we used to, so
this need for people to be evenbetter aligned than they have
(14:19):
been in the past is critical.
I would also say on a monthlybasis, it's identifying what are
the times you're going to cometogether with the other
departments and teams to figureout how you can better support
and work well with one another.
And then, on a quarterly basis,the one that is really important
is what I call the coachingplan or the improvement plan on
what, as a leader, you're goingto help your team focus on, and
(14:41):
it's very simple you pick two orthree things that are doing
well and two or three things youwant them to focus and work on
and make it easy, and then givethem examples and make sure
you're providing the coaching asyou roll forward.
And, as I think about anoperating rhythm, if you do
nothing else as far as structuregoes, if you can nail the daily
, weekly, monthly, quarterlyrhythm, it will lead over and
(15:05):
over again to consistent resultsbecause you're showing up with
consistency for the team, and Ithink that's what a lot of
first-time leaders reallystruggle with Now.
You can then roll that up tosecond, third, fourth line
leadership.
The motions and the cadencedoesn't change that much as far
as having a reoccurring routinethat you can get into.
That leads to incredibleoutcomes the way that you
consistently deliver on thatover and over again.
Rick Smolen (15:28):
Shane, as a leader, you're not able to be inside
the different one-on-ones andyou're not in the huddles where
they're coming up with theforecast.
And maybe you're, on occasionyou're on a monthly
cross-functional meeting to sortof participate and even assess
what's going on across an areawithin the business.
Do you like what's the point orthe area in which you are I
(15:51):
don't want to say inspecting,but maybe that's partial of it
like observing the operatingrhythm in motion.
Like, for example, are youreviewing the coaching plans
that come through on a quarterlybasis or are there other ways
that you're looking across howto provide coaching to your
leaders on how to execute thesethings?
Shane Evans (16:12):
So what I found.
This is somewhat of a cheatcode that I have.
So at Gong, we capture everyinteraction and I'm able to set
smart trackers.
So, even though I can't be inevery meeting, I'm able to tag
when someone says, hey, yourteam's amazing or your team did
a great job here, I get alertsand I'm able to follow back up
with the team.
So, even though I'm not inevery call or every meeting, I
(16:33):
found ways to extend what I cando.
Now, if I don't have a tool ortechnology one of the tools that
I've used in the past for tipsand tricks I've asked leaders to
help give me a nudge when theysee something great, so that I
can be present for good thingsthat are happening.
Because, at the end of the day,we still all want feedback.
As human beings, as creaturesof habit, we want to hear what
(16:55):
we're doing well, and we needthat reinforcement behavior, and
so that's one thing that Ifound works very well.
The other tip I would givefolks is the ability to find
coaching opportunities, and sothis is where you need to get
consistent and regular feedback.
The big unlock for me in mycareer I mentioned earlier one
was empathy.
(17:15):
The second thing that I wouldpoint to is the desire for
consistent and undilutedfeedback, and it can be hard to
hear sometimes, but if you canget feedback from frontline
staff, frontline leaders, onwhat things are going well and
what things need to be improvedupon, you're gonna find you have
a much better finger of thepulse of what's happening and
you're in the know of what'sgoing on across the business.
(17:38):
And sometimes we're almostafraid to ask because we don't
want to run the risk that thingsmight not be going as well as
we, the business, and sometimeswe're almost afraid to ask
because we don't want to run therisk that things might not be
going as well as they as wethink they are in our head,
which, again to what you said atthe outset, that's like this
dangerous place we get into oflike brainwashing ourselves that
hey, everything's good and youknow, la la land, uh, I don't
have to deal with all theseproblems if I'm not hearing
about them, there are problems,and the faster that you can get
(18:01):
to them, the if I'm not hearingabout them, there are problems,
and the faster that you can getto them, the faster that you can
treat them even though you'renot in the room, the better off
your team will be and the betterthe performance will end up
becoming in the end.
So that desire to seekconsistent feedback and to have
these truth signals that arecoming at you, both positive and
constructive, really allows youto be extensible and not have
(18:22):
to be in the room for everysingle meeting.
But it requires this web ofconnective tissue, this
ecosystem of leaders that feelcomfortable that hey, even if
it's bad or not so great news, Ican pick up the phone, I can
have a very direct conversationwith Shane and he's going to
help me.
He's going to like, help mework through that, not say don't
bring me bad news or shut medown because it may not be the
(18:43):
news that that person's lookingfor.
Rick Smolen (18:45):
So just unpacking what you just described.
So the first it sounds likeyou've been very purposeful
about fostering an environmentof recognition, whether it's
through like trackers or like ifsomebody's doing something
exceptional, I want to knowabout it, and it is one of the
most underutilized tools andit's probably the least
expensive because it's justrecognition.
(19:07):
But being purposeful aboutrecognition, boy, do salespeople
in particular sort ofappreciate being recognized.
And so, while, yes, we're allcoin operated, to some extent,
just that level of appreciationsounds like that is a big
motivating and driving force.
And I do agree that you need tobe purposeful about identifying
opportunities to conductrecognition.
(19:29):
The second point you weretalking about is sort of
creating an environment ofcandor and having these coaching
opportunities, and I, you knowthe story I told is the same
thing.
Like I got coaching, whether Iwanted it or not, and it rocked
my world a little bit but led meto get better.
I'm wondering about like it'sone thing to say cool, you
should be giving feedback, youshould be seeking feedback and
(19:52):
you should be appreciating itand getting it.
Is there like any examplesrecently?
Like I think about this for mycurrent team, I have a
leadership team and I want tohelp them all improve, and I
believe that they want toimprove.
I struggle with the balancebetween supporting them like,
hey, what are you trying to getdone?
How can I help you?
And then evaluating them andsaying, hey, I'm observing some
(20:13):
things that could be goingbetter.
Or hey, on this front, likehiring is super important, I
think it needs to be, you know,elevated in terms of its urgency
.
You know, I think for you to beeffective, you've got to
accelerate or prioritize more ofyour time on that.
How do you find that balance ofdetermining what to actually
coach on and then deliveringthat feedback which, you know,
(20:36):
like, like, our words have heavyweight, so we got to be careful
what we say, you know.
Shane Evans (20:41):
Yeah, great, great.
Such a great question.
So two things.
One, I'm a parent.
I've got four kids.
One of the things I've learnedis that modeling is so powerful,
and so if you want a culture offeedback, if you want to be
able to give that feedback, youhave to be able to receive that
feedback.
So that means one asking for itand making it safe where people
(21:03):
feel like they can be honestwith you, and then the power
move.
Here, the unlock code issharing that feedback with the
team.
So being vulnerable andtransparent enough to say hey,
team, I got some feedback, I'veinternalized that, here's some
things I'm going to work on.
And when you start showing upthat way, it actually creates an
environment where people Ifound are much more willing to
(21:24):
be like, hey, give me some ofthat feedback.
Like, I want to hear undiluted.
Now there will still be somefolks that aren't as open.
And so the other thing I foundI'm not a big believer in give
like three positive, onenegative or seven positive and
two negative, like these oldschool methodologies of like
trying to like give a little bitof sugar before you smack them
in the face.
What I found works best is begenuine, be transparent, be
(21:48):
authentic with people.
Hey, I need to give you somefeedback.
Are you in a place where youcan actually hear this?
If not, like let's find anothertime.
But I think, by setting it up,I'm about to give you some real
talk, and I think it's okay tosay look, I'm doing this because
I want you to improve and Ineed you to continue to raise
your game, and I think thiswould really help you If it's
(22:08):
coming from a place of beinggenuine.
Yes, words matter immensely,but people are going to feel if
you care about them and ifyou're showing up in an
authentic way in order to beable to receive that feedback.
And so, if you want to havethat environment, you need to be
authentic, and then you need tofind ways to deliver that in a
very concise and direct manner.
Rick Smolen (22:32):
We've both entered new organizations and what I'm
reflecting on is you've got toearn this trust.
You've got to earn thatrelationship where we can model
the behavior in terms of askingfor feedback and being
vulnerable, about sharing it,and we've got to earn the
(22:53):
relationship where what we'resaying is being interpreted as
coming from a good place and I,you know, as I reflect back, I'm
like huh, what was those firstseveral months like?
As it relates to earning trust,as it relates to like
solidifying your position as aleader, so that people felt like
(23:14):
, hey, this is an environmentthat I can say what's on my mind
and I can get feedback.
And it's like well-intendedLike what do you share with
folks?
Many folks right now arejoining new organizations.
There's been a lot of like thattype of thing happening in tech
, if somebody's entering a neworganization.
Or, as you reflect back on yourown experiences, what do you
think like to establish thattype of trust where these
(23:36):
authentic, real conversationscan happen?
Is there anything that'sparticularly worked for you?
Shane Evans (23:42):
Let me talk about coming into Gong, because that's
super relevant recently and Ihad a few key learnings that
helped me.
I'm a big believer in firstteam principles and, for those
that haven't read the book, patLescioni wrote a book the Five
Dysfunctions of a Team and oneof the things he talks about in
there is your first team.
A lot of people coming intoorganizations feel like their
first team is the people thatreport to them, but the reality
(24:03):
is your first team is your peers, the people that you usually
interact with on a weekly basis,and so, coming into a new
organization, it's imperativethat you spend the right amount
of time up front getting to knowthat team.
So when I came to Gong, we havea big R&D operation in Tel Aviv
, israel my second week with thecompany I flew over there and
(24:25):
spent the whole week with thatteam.
So I didn't go out and visitcustomers.
I didn't go and visit sellersout in the field, even though
that was the team that I wasmanaging directly.
I went and spent time with ourR&D organization and the
leadership in that team and thenI went on a tour and did that
with other teams and I made abig investment on my first team
as the starting place to try andmake sure that I had context
(24:47):
for what was happening.
Now, when I start working withmy team, I've got a much better
sense of what's actually goingon, and I think a lot of people,
when they come into the company, they feel this immense
pressure to win their team over.
But I don't think that you cando that until you win over your
peer group and you have theirrespect.
And I can also share a fewexamples where I've gone into
(25:08):
companies and just wanted todeliver results so desperately
that I go right to customers andright to the sellers and what
you find is that they'rewatching you out of one eye when
everyone else is looking at howyou're going to show up, and
it's going to take you weeks, ifnot months, before you start
actually seeing some of thoseresults come to bear.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that you work
cross-functionally when you'recoming into a new organization
(25:30):
to start to build that trust.
And again I'll come back tojust kind of finish where I
started.
It's the first team principlesthat I have found that really
matter, really understand whoyour first team is and where you
need to build that trust andcredibility.
And it's not to say that yourdirect reports don't matter.
They matter immensely, butthey're going to see what you're
doing to help remove obstaclesand roadblocks and help them be
(25:52):
successful.
And so it does show up in thatway and roadblocks and help them
be successful.
Rick Smolen (25:57):
And so it does show up in that way.
You know, it's really funny.
I don't know that I've everreally truly connected the dots
on this, where I've alwaysbelieved that your, you know,
like I believe that your firstteam is your peer set and not
the organization, but it's solike that in my mind has become
a bit of a throwaway line,because I think what that
actually means is really tough.
(26:17):
It's actually really tough toput that into practice.
I also used to, I learned, youknow, years ago that, like, the
first 30 days at a companyshould be about establishing
relationships.
When the temptation is so highon you know, digging into the
pipeline, making an impact,everything's leading you to do
(26:37):
what you were hired to do.
I always found it tough.
What does it mean to establishrelationships?
Does it mean I could get acoffee with everybody and learn
about their hobbies?
Just having these meetings withyour peers alone isn't
sufficient.
You gotta, like, have astrategy about how to how to
establish relationships in aproductive way.
(26:59):
I love this example of spendinga week with the r d team.
That is so counter intuitive towhat most leaders would do,
guilty like.
I've established good rapportwith the engineering
organization at most of thecompanies that I've been at,
mostly because I just admire andrespect how much, how smart
they are and how much of animpact they have on our
organization's success.
(27:20):
But to roll up your sleeves andsay, yo, I want to actually get
in and better understand whatyou're doing.
The few times that I've donethat, the returns have been
massive.
I mean like, like, and yet ourinertia makes that so hard to do
.
So you have to really createthe space.
Was there anything inparticular with these other
functions that, like you didthat helped truly establish the
(27:42):
relationship?
Because, look, they'reappreciative that you came over
and did that, but you're stilllike the revenue guy.
You know you're not like one ofthem.
Like what?
How do you like, how do you gettactical about actually
building that rapport with R&D,with finance, with legal, with
these other functions that youknow we partner with but we're
not, like, directly responsiblefor?
Shane Evans (28:02):
I read a book years ago called the first 90 days,
and there's a thought in therethat has stuck with me
throughout my career, and theanalogy they give is anytime you
take on a new role or positionor you get promoted within a
company, the first 90 days aregoing to be the critical time in
which you set the trajectoryfor what you're going to be able
to accomplish in that role.
And so you think about a bulletbeing fired out of a gun.
(28:24):
Whatever trajectory you aimthat at is going to be how high
you can get, and so if youinvest heavily in other teams
and departments right out of thegate, it actually raises the
trajectory of what you canaccomplish versus having that be
flat, and so that's something.
Whenever we hire anyone, Ialways tell them hey, you're not
going to get this first 90 daysback, you're going to get
sucked into pipeline, you'regoing to get sucked into fires
(28:45):
and problems.
So resist the temptation to getinto the business and focus on
relationships with people andthe product, so you really can
understand what we're all aboutas a company, because it will
allow you to be way moreeffective.
And so now what ends uphappening?
I'll give you two tips.
Every interview I do the firstquestion I ask people and this
(29:06):
is a cheat code for anyone thatwatches this and ends up
interviewing with me in thefuture my first question is take
two minutes and tell me aboutyourself outside of work Hobbies
, family interests that you haveon the weekend, like nothing
work related.
And it's what I found even whenI went over and I mentioned I
met with the R&D team.
My first question was give metwo minutes on you outside of
(29:27):
work, and if you were sittinghere, I'd be taking copious
notes because I want to get toknow them, and it's one of those
where, when people know howmuch you care, it totally
changes what they're willing todo for you.
And so again, it goes back tobeing genuine, being authentic.
It's actually slowing down alittle bit on the front end to
go a lot faster, and we're stillhuman beings.
(29:48):
We still want to haveinterpersonal relationships with
one another, but I still do thesame thing as I meet with
people get to know them asindividuals.
And then the next piece I getinto is where can I help you be
successful?
What can I help you to do?
Maybe it's something with mydirect reports, maybe it's
something with a process that wehave, and so now I'm trying not
(30:09):
only to build a relationship,but I'm trying to say how can I
make your life better?
And you'll be amazed at theamount of input that they're
going to give you.
And now the doors are opened up.
So in the future, back to beingeyes on, hands on.
You now have advocates that arewilling to bring stuff to you
because they know that you areapproachable and that you're
genuine, that you want to help,and so those are a couple of
things that have helped me asI've come into Gong.
(30:31):
And I've come into Gong andthis is back to you know, the
top end little, little tips I'velearned throughout my career on
having to enter in differentsituations, but I think those
are things that have reallyhelped me find success earlier
by being focused onrelationships, focused on what
matters to people and what'sgoing to help them win and be
successful.
Rick Smolen (30:51):
Yeah, I got it.
Like, I will say that, like, ifI take anything away from this
conversation, it's like I couldbe doing such a better job of
this cross-functionalrelationship development,
especially parts of the org thatlike just don't directly
connect to sales, marketing andCS but are equally important
(31:14):
sales, marketing and CS, but areequally important, and all the
evidence suggests that whatyou're saying is 1,000% accurate
, and yet, if you aren'tpurposeful about it, it will
never happen, which so that isthe thing.
It's just not gonna show up.
You actually have to go do thatwork, go take the initiative to
kinda make that happen, and Ithink, even if you're not new,
(31:34):
it's really not too late tostart to do that.
But Shane, what about thebuilding, trust and rapport
within that?
You know your supervisory, youknow environment or organization
.
Shane Evans (31:50):
So this goes back to the framework that you and I
were talking about, and there'sa communications component here,
when you articulate theinitiatives that you're gonna be
focused on.
Solet's go back to the framework
that you and I were talkingabout, and there's a
communications component here,when you articulate the
initiatives that you're going tobe focused on.
So let's go back to you'restarting a new role.
You're a new revenue leader.
You've got to spend time to getto know where the priorities
are and get alignment from otherpeers.
Hey, this is where I think weshould be focused.
Are you supportive as you thenget your team's input on
(32:11):
that?
Make sure they have a chance toform and challenge what you
think the initiatives are.
There's a whole communicationstrategy around this to make
sure you get it right.
not only are they usually notthere physically, but even when
(32:34):
they are, they're probably notthere emotionally, meaning
they're multitasking.
So what you're sharing?
I can't tell you how manyleaders I've worked for that
have told me hey, everyoneunderstands our vision.
Everyone understands thestrategy because they've said it
over and over again, and you'llfind when you're in these
leadership roles that you haveto repeat things 7, 10, 20 times
before it even starts toregister.
(32:56):
And so I think that's where,when you talk about getting the
trust of your team, I had amentor and a close friend I
worked with and he used thisanalogy of painting a barn, and
if you really want to paint abarn, well, you have to saturate
it, like it's not one coat ofpaint.
And so he'd always remind ushey, that was a first coat of
paint or a third coat of paint.
We're going to need like 20coats of paint on this thing
before people are going toreally start to see that it is
(33:18):
red, and you would think thatpeople would just see it and get
it.
But it requires that repetition, that reminder, and so I think,
when it comes to your internalteam, it's really about gaining
alignment by getting input andfeedback and then communicate,
communicate, communicate.
People are hungry for context.
I've made a lot of missteps asI've come into different
companies and trying to drivechange and not getting people
(33:41):
bought in to understand the whybehind the change.
And then, as you try and go anddrive that change if you don't
have people bought into it.
It just makes it so much harder.
It just takes more time for youto get where you want to go.
Rick Smolen (33:52):
And so if you can really figure out the best way
to communicate and it's usuallynot just like one mode or medium
it needs to be written verbal,like all hands meetings, like as
you think about a calm strategy.
It needs to be multi-prongedbecause people aren't gonna get
it in one mode.
I wish I could tell you like,hey, slack is the answer or Zoom
is the answer.
(34:12):
But it requires multi-mode andthe repetition to make sure that
people know what you're tryingto accomplish.
And that's when you start toget people's trust, when they
start to see that you'recommunicating, that you've got
alignment and the results follow.
I think that's where you startto get that, that mass adoption
or at least mass understandingof what it is you're trying to
achieve as a leader yeah, I meanin roles it really becomes.
(34:34):
How do I get really good atrepetition and one-to-many
communications?
And it isn't just one medium.
Email is good, some people liketo read.
A video on.
Slack is good, some people liketo watch it and feel that
connection to you In all hands.
An interactive environment,some people like that.
So you've got too big of a teamto have just one mechanism to do
that.
I almost feel like as seniorleaders, we should be
(34:55):
accountable to some level ofone-to-many communication and
you almost look back at the endof the week and be like hey, did
I communicate out to this orgthis week, or did I get bogged
down in meetings and reactive tostuff?
Did I take the time to actuallyshare a couple top-of-mind
things that are happening tomake people feel more connected?
Again, it takes intent but andit's not intuitive Like
(35:19):
repeating yourself over and overagain feels weird, but you know
, to get it to sink in.
I like the paint, the layers ofpaint, as a great analogy to
reinforce that.
Shane, just to close things outhere, as you're developing your
leadership team, like today,are there any sort of things
that are top of mind right nowthat you are seeing in new and
developing leaders that areworking, as it relates to
(35:42):
building better leaders, bettercoaches, better business
planners.
Shane Evans (35:46):
You bet.
I will say I think that ourenvironment has become much more
challenging.
So if we were competing in aflat race with like 50 degrees
weather, where there's no realheat or cold extremes and it's
just flat, we're cruising along,we've gone to an environment
it's hilly, temperatures are upand down all over the place, and
(36:07):
it's just become a lot morechallenging.
And so you think about athletesor performers that want to put
their best output, and theconditions have shifted
drastically.
It requires a completelydifferent mindset, and then
physical readiness, and what Imean by that and we think about
that in terms of business andleadership it means that we need
to continue to be aware ofwhere we are, have strengths,
(36:31):
where we have weaknesses andwhat it's going to take to
succeed in this new environment.
And I have a lot of team memberstoday that have come to me
recently.
This is both at Gong and at theprevious companies I've been at
and have shared a little bit offrustration around.
Hey, I'm burned out, like I'vegot nothing left to give, and so
I do think there's an elementhere of pacing.
I think there's an element hereof finding boundaries that you
(36:54):
need to set up in order to beeffective, and so leaders want
to be successful.
They so desperately want tosucceed that quite often, they
work too many hours.
A lot of what I'm seeing rightnow what we're trying to focus
on with our leaders is it getsback to some of the fundamentals
(37:15):
around how do you prioritizeyour day, how do you set up
boundaries on what you are ableto do and what you're not able
to do, and then how do you helpyour team become more effective?
There's this element ofdelegation and of knowing how
and where to help, and thenletting people fail and then
giving them coaching, and whatI'm finding is that this
(37:36):
environment has changedsignificantly, and so there's
different skills that we areneeding to focus and hone in
order to help people findsuccess and do it in a way
that's not going to cause themto have this miss or imbalance
of, like professional andpersonal lives, because I'm a
big believer that if you're ableto get away and recharge,
you're going to be way moreeffective, and a lot of that has
(37:56):
to do with prioritization,boundaries and then finding time
to recharge.
Notice, I'm not talking to youabout like skills, like
communication or deal reviews ordiscovery.
It really is back to personalwell-being and personal health,
because we have a lot ofmotivated folks I don't think
this is unique to us and theconditions have shifted
(38:19):
drastically, where what it takesto succeed today is very
different than what it took even12 months ago.
And so, being aware of yourconditions around you and
setting yourself up in a waythat allows you to be successful
, that's where we're spending alot of time with our leaders
today to make sure that they canfind the best version of
themselves that allow them toperform at their optimal rate
and pace
Rick Smolen (38:58):
How does that show up?
more about what I'm doing in mypersonal life, from like when
I'm taking vacation and what I'mdoing so that I'm again
modeling that behavior andencouraging them to do the same.
I'm telling them hey, look,between these hours in the
morning, this is my workout time.
That's sacred to me.
If you're someone who likes toread, if you're someone who
(39:20):
likes to do yoga or breathing,like, you need to set that time
and like, respect it.
And so I think there's somepersonal things that we're
talking to them about what theyneed to be doing, and then
there's also professional thingsaround.
Hey, there's certain things youcan control, and then there's
uncontrollables.
Let's get prioritized on thecontrollables, and so it goes
back to operating rhythm.
Like you can't control everydeal and the outcome for every
(39:42):
deal, but you can control theway you set up cadences with the
team on how you're going tohelp them find success, and so I
think those are two differentways in which we look at both
the personal and theprofessional to help them get
what they're after and to findsuccess.
Shane, I just want to thank youas I reflect on some of the
things that we talked abouttoday.
I think one just like thatstands out to me is that
(40:05):
modeling behavior, and likeyou're only as good of a leader
as you're as good as a leaderand so modeling the behavior of
what that is is so powerful.
And the other thing that'sreally standing with me is like
it's not just that you'reonboarding in the beginning, but
like the relationship that youestablish cross-functionally,
the relationship that youestablish cross-functionally at
the end of the day.
This is all like a series oflike any issues within a company
(40:27):
or almost always comes back to,like the humans involved and so
like.
When you build those realrelationships with somebody, it
doesn't matter about theattribution and what we're
fighting over.
All the things the conflicts,the obstacles get so much more
easily dealt with.
Those are the top two thingsthat I feel like I can take away
and continue to work on.
I just want to thank you, shane, for joining us today on Pillar
(40:47):
Talk.
I look forward to speaking withyou again soon.
Rick, thanks for the time.
It's great to spend time withyou today and I learned some
things that helped me focuswhere I need to be.
So love spending the time.
Look forward to doing it againin the future, thank you.
Reflecting on the conversationwe just had with Shane Evans.
(41:10):
The first thing I take awayfrom the conversation is how
Shane entered Gong and heexecuted successfully on advice
that so many receive and so fewfollow.
That advice is to use the firstfew weeks of your time at a
company to build relationships,and I give that advice all the
time.
I mean it.
It's good advice, but it'sgeneric and broad.
Everyone agrees with it.
(41:31):
Oh yeah, of course, and ofcourse some effort is made.
But the instinctive thing to dois to get to know everyone on
your team and to dive in and tolearn and to attempt to make an
impact.
There's just so much momentumpushing for that.
In fact, that's what you werejust hired to do.
But Shane told a story ofholding off on that instinct and
establishing a truerelationship with his peers and
(41:54):
doing that successfully.
Now think about it.
If he didn't do it, then whenwould he be?
able to.
Shane Evans (42:00):
Shane was only a few weeks away from being truly
in his role and having thetsunami of responsibility
surround him.
It's going to be reallydifficult to build true
relationships with partnerorganizations at that point in
time, but he did the upfrontwork around it and my belief and
bet is that his success in theorganization has been amplified
by that early, correct andcounterintuitive step.
(42:22):
We can all learn from that.
The second takeaway for me frommy conversation with Shane is
around overcommunication.
He shared a great analogy thatcommunicating to a large group
is like painting the roof of abarn red and that in reality it
takes 20 coats of paint to getthat red to shine.
We need to get our messageacross over and over and through
(42:44):
more than one medium to beheard by the team.
This is also counterintuitivefor leaders.
Once news has been shared or adecision has been made and
communicated, one thinks thatthe team has received it and
took it in and is now operatingon the premise of what was
shared.
But in reality people oftenneed to hear things many times
(43:04):
for it to stick.
And while counterintuitive todo, shane shared that doing so
has built a lot of trust, andtrust with our teams is a place
we would all want to get to, hasbuilt a lot of trust, and trust
with our teams is a place wewould all want to get to.
Lastly, I'm taking away whatShane shared about modeling
behavior as a leader.
He gives feedback, he's open toreceiving feedback, he learns
(43:25):
about the person, not just theemployee.
He shared multiple examples ofacting as a leader and it's a
reminder to me that the simplestway to leadership success is to
be a leader.
Now remember, mediocrity is thedefault setting.
I want to thank Shane Evans forbeing our guest this week.
I want to thank Ari Smolin forproducing those amazing tunes
(43:47):
you're hearing.
That's Isla Young and Songs ofSummer.
Thanks for listening to PillarTalk.
We will see you next time.
Rick Smolen (43:53):
Take it easy.
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