October 20, 2023 • 30 mins
As the hostage crisis is happening in Israel, we had this important conversation with Dr.Emily Bashah, where we discussed:
- What is extremism?
- How does extremism relate to one’s sense of agency?
- How can you foster your children’s sense of agency?
- 5 ways to Prevent Extremism from Childhood
Dr.Bashah is the author of the book "Additive Ideologies" and a licensed psychologist with a private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona. She is an expert witness in criminal, immigration, and civil courts, she has worked on high-profile cases covering issues of domestic terrorism capital offenses, and first-degree murder.
Dr. Bashah was awarded the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues Policy Fellowship and served within the American Psychological Association’s Public Interest Government Relations Office in Washington, D.C. A frequent expert guest in media, Dr. Bashah clinically specializes in mental illness, personal and collective trauma, addiction and grief and loss, as well as family and relationship dynamics.
Relevant links:
The Optimistic American Podcast
#39 Are American citizens and children immune to extremism? with Dr. Emily Bashah PART B
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So grab your FREE Compassionate Parenting Guides now!
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- Join an ONLINE workshop
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Remember to treat yourself and your children with compassion and curiosity. 🫶
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (00:02):
Hi, Basha.
are you today?
Dr.Bashah (00:05):
Good.
Tami.
Thank you so much for havingme on your show.
It's anhonor to meet you and to get to
know you and be invited on yourpodcast during these difficult
Tammy Afriat, CPC (00:16):
times.
Thank you for collaborating me.
And I think we were intouch for a couple of weeks.
And kind karma that weget to do this interview,
right after the horrificevents happening in Israel
by a terrorist organizationcalled Hamas . So I really
appreciate you taking time andsharing your perspective as a
(00:38):
psychologist and from your ownpersonal and family experiences.
And we'll talk today abouthow to prevent extremism and.
I would love to first fromyou, how do you define
extremism and what does it hasto do with the book you wrote
called Addicted Ideologies?
Dr.Bashah (00:58):
Yes.
Thank you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (00:59):
much for
Dr.Bashah (00:59):
having me on your show.
So my partner, husband,father of our daughter, Paul
Johnson, and I coauthored abook, Addictive Ideologies.
Finding meaning and agencywhen politics fail you,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:12):
because we
Dr.Bashah (01:12):
were so concerned about these growing
polarizations andextremism in the U S
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:20):
and
Dr.Bashah (01:20):
also globally.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:21):
And
Dr.Bashah (01:22):
what we did is we analyzed and assessed.
, various
Tammy Afriat (01:26):
forms of genocides across the
Dr.Bashah (01:28):
globe, acts of terrorism and extremism.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:33):
And
Dr.Bashah (01:33):
we actually just came back from a
trip to Bosnia,meeting with political
and communityleaders there, really
understanding theatrocities that had been
committed to the Bosnianpopulation.
And actually we were supposedto be in Israel this
week, meeting withcommunity and political leaders.
Um, as well as
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:54):
family
Dr.Bashah (01:55):
members
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:55):
having
Dr.Bashah (01:56):
a reunion
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:57):
with the
Dr.Bashah (01:58):
Jewish Iraqi community.
so my work, I come at this
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:02):
a
Dr.Bashah (02:02):
psychological lens.
I do work as a forensic,expert, doing evaluations
of people who are being charged
Tammy Afria (02:12):
domestic terrorism,
Dr.Bashah (02:13):
extremism, capital crimes, first degree murder.
Tammy Afriat, CP (02:17):
And Paul comes
Dr.Bashah (02:18):
at it.
He was the former mayor of.
Phoenix, served two
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:22):
in the 90s,
Dr.Bashah (02:23):
and he's a political expert and really committed,
to political reform and raisingawareness and growing the
independent party in the U.
S.
and reducing extremismin politics today.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:36):
So
Dr.Bashah (02:37):
we originally looked at
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:39):
family's
Dr.Bashah (02:40):
story as a case.
study in our book and reallyextrapolated that to show and
illustrate how this could happen
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:48):
and how
Dr.Bashah (02:49):
none of us are really immune to it.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:51):
and it
Dr.Bashah (02:51):
does give
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:52):
a
Dr.Bashah (02:52):
good sound theory and understanding of how
someone like a terroristorganization like Hamas.
Could commit such violentforms of atrocities
against Israeli citizens,children, babies,
women, elderly, disabled.
and what we find isthat they're all tied
(03:15):
to an ideology.
And that theseideologies that become
violent are ones thattend to see people as an
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:24):
out group.
There's a
Dr.Bashah (03:25):
groupthink mentality that is happening.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:27):
They
Dr.Bashah (03:28):
see themselves as victims and
oppressed.
And then that lends itself
Tammy Afriat (03:33):
justification that
Dr.Bashah (03:35):
of the outgroup as being the oppressor.
And it justifies the violence.
more so it's dehumanizing of theoppressor.
And so that's why we can see
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:46):
the rhetoric, a
Dr.Bashah (03:47):
lot of the propaganda that's
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:49):
pushed
Dr.Bashah (03:49):
from Hamas is really seeing and inflaming
that they're the ones who arevictimized and
justifying the acts ofvengeance against Israelis
because they're not seeing
Tammy Afria (03:59):
Israelis as part of
Dr.Bashah (04:01):
this shared humanity, or, or as human.
And.
There is an addiction that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:07):
that we see
Dr.Bashah (04:08):
with these kinds of extremist groups,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:11):
and various
Dr.Bashah (04:11):
organizations, or even people individually who
commit terrorist attacks, even
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:15):
U.
S.
Dr.Bashah (04:16):
soil, um, is that there, there are
these push and pull factors.
They start to be.
pulled from thingsthat would ground them
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:24):
root them
Dr.Bashah (04:24):
and connect them to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:26):
a
Dr.Bashah (04:26):
sense of belonging,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:27):
a
Dr.Bashah (04:27):
shared identity and pushing them more
towards radicalization.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:32):
And
Dr.Bashah (04:32):
especially there are some vulnerability factors.
We can see that radicalorganizations or radical leaders
can help prey upon peoplewho are more vulnerable
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:42):
to
Dr.Bashah (04:42):
really indoctrinate them towards these
radical forms of ideology.
So there's a lot of differentprocesses, but really,
I mean, it's quite simple.
There'snothing that justifies or
condones the acts thatHamas had inflicted in
this last week and on the50th Yom Kippur War
and on the Shabbat
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:04):
in
Dr.Bashah (05:04):
Israel and beheading babies and infants
and tying hands of Children, uh,behind their backs and killing
them execution style, rapingwomen and parading them in
the streets and celebratingtheir victory and dancing
and singing and chanting.
of these
Tam (05:24):
Horrific, uh, sadistic acts
Dr.Bashah (05:26):
that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:26):
been committed.
Dr.Bashah (05:28):
I mean, it's really, it's
savage and barbaric, and there's
Tammy Afriat, (05:30):
no justification.
Dr.Bashah (05:32):
Um, our work is, if we can understand it, we can
prevent it.
And there are a lot ofcommonalities that we
see across time andacross the globe
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:42):
in,
, Dr.Bashah (05:42):
various genocides.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:44):
what we saw
Dr.Bashah (05:45):
actually in Iraq.
When my parents were livingthere, was that,
you know, these wereeveryday people who just
suddenly joined in the forcesof the Ba'ath Party and the rise
of Saddam Hussein, and theycreated the Jews as a
scapegoat and ostracized themand, said that they
are the ones who areoppressing you and
(06:06):
they're the ones to blame,for, you everything that
is going wrong in your life.
And so we have to get rid ofthem and they're not human.
They're, they don't share
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:18):
same humanity
Dr.Bashah (06:19):
as us and, and they're less
than human.
And in doing so we saw.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:24):
assets
Dr.Bashah (06:24):
were seized
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:25):
of Jewish
Dr.Bashah (06:26):
citizens, business partners, had turned on Jews,
businesses were looted, Jews
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:32):
had to
Dr.Bashah (06:33):
escape for their
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:34):
They
Dr.Bashah (06:34):
had to go through underground passages.
my father has aharrowing story of.
Escaping through Kurds,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:41):
the Kurds
Dr.Bashah (06:42):
had smuggled him into Iran.
This was before therevolution at the time.
And, there was a safehouse in Tehran for him
and the U S we're helping
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:51):
different
Dr.Bashah (06:52):
operations, to assist these Jews coming out of,
these Arab worlds, to have safe
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:59):
to
Dr.Bashah (06:59):
Israel.
but what happened is.
You know, it doesn't justhappen overnight, but how
is it that masses amounts ofpeople can just condone such
violence against people whowere their neighbors, their
friends, their businesspartners, the shopkeepers.
they went to school with them.
How is it that they can justturn on them after having those
solidified relationships?
(07:21):
And my family has been inBaghdad since 500 BC.
This isn't,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:25):
you know,
Dr.Bashah (07:25):
they are
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:26):
Arab Jews.
We
Dr.Bashah (07:27):
are Arab Jews.
Babylon is our home
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:30):
and we're not
Dr.Bashah (07:31):
foreigners.
and so
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:33):
being able to
Dr.Bashah (07:34):
extrapolate what is going on, Paul and I were
really able to elucidate.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:38):
elucidate the risk
Dr.Bashah (07:39):
factors for one to be pushed
Tammy Afriat, C (07:43):
these addictive
Dr.Bashah (07:44):
ideologies and the risk is
seeing oneself as avictim and seeing the
other as the oppressor.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:50):
So, when you talk about terrorist
organization, we also kindof see as a whole, you know,
that's it an organization,but I want to take it to
the very person who decided.
to do it.
To join those terrororganization and adapt
those ideologies.
And I want you, because inthe book you are talking
(08:12):
about the sense of agency.
So if you could pleaseelaborate on what does
Dr.Bashah (08:16):
that mean?
Yeah.
So, you know, personalagency and I realized,
your podcast
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:21):
also, you
Dr.Bashah (08:21):
know, for mothers and, Parents,
uh, raising Children.
So I think addinga developmental approach and
lens might makesome sense for your audience.
Tammy Afriat, C (08:33):
You know, there
Dr.Bashah (08:34):
is a developmental approach to violence.
So there's longitudinalstudies that reveal that
Tammy Afria (08:39):
the most aggressive
Dr.Bashah (08:40):
age across the lifespan are actually
toddlers.
So anyone who has a 2 yearold know that.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:48):
They're still learning.
Dr.Bashah (08:49):
They're still socializing.
They don't necessarilyunderstand social
emotional reciprocity.
It takes time forthem to learn what
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:56):
norms
Dr.Bashah (08:57):
are and to see that they're going to
be pushed
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:00):
outside
Dr.Bashah (09:00):
of the group and not have friends if they're
going to be mean to themor stealing their toys or
hitting them on the head.
and, you know, it seems kindof preposterous.
to consider sincechildren, you know,
we see them as pure asinnocent, but aggression
variable study includelike forceful hitting, biting,
(09:21):
pushing, pullingon another person's body,
which two year olds do.
So between the ages oftwo and four is really
crucial for parents to modeland teach.
Pro social behavior.
And really, you're teaching them
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:35):
that
Dr.Bashah (09:35):
they're they are their own
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:37):
being, and
Dr.Bashah (09:38):
they do have agency and responsibility, and they
need to be accountable for theirbehaviors.
And so if a child can'tsocially adapt and they're
being ostracized by others and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:50):
pushed
Dr.Bashah (09:51):
out of the group, they don't necessarily
learn these skills and theycan become emotionally and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:56):
stunted in
Dr.Bashah (09:57):
their development.
So I see this in adultsthat I see either in
the forensic work or clinicalwork that I do where there
is this, like stunteddevelopmental growth.
That they need to
Tammy Afr (10:08):
relearn because there were
Dr.Bashah (10:10):
missed opportunities in
their childhood.
While
Tammy Afriat, C (10:13):
it's a minority
Dr.Bashah (10:14):
of children, I should say, so
parents don't freak out.
Parents ultimatelyteach children to become
socially desirablethrough this exchange.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:25):
It's
Dr.Bashah (10:25):
social emotional
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:27):
That's that
Dr.Bashah (10:28):
give and take.
I'm gonna share this toywith you because
I know that you'llcontinue to be my friend,
and I would rather havesomeone to play with than no
one.
you know, so those things
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:37):
important.
And through
Dr.Bashah (10:38):
the mechanism, adults and peers are now
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:40):
drawn to
Dr.Bashah (10:41):
the child because the child
gains affection
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:44):
from
Dr.Bashah (10:45):
adults.
Tammy A (10:46):
gained the benefit from
Dr.Bashah (10:47):
adults.
They get the praise from adults
Tammy Afr (10:50):
that is going to help
Dr.Bashah (10:51):
reinforce their behavior.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:53):
So you've
Dr.Bashah (10:53):
got this like varied social input
norms that all inform moral.
development
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:59):
and
Dr.Bashah (11:00):
And we see, you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:02):
over
Dr.Bashah (11:02):
time, like the brain is
constantly developing theirability to to understand
information
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:09):
social rules, do evolve
Dr.Bashah (11:12):
over time at a deeper level
because, you know, you have
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:15):
teach it
Dr.Bashah (11:16):
at a very simple level when they're
young and then youcould expand upon that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:20):
they get
Dr.Bashah (11:20):
older.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:21):
Now with
Dr.Bashah (11:21):
adolescence, it's a little trickier because
now you've got the effectsof testosterone and the
hormones so we see thiseven with tweens, right, so
they're not
Tammy Afriat, CP (11:30):
teens, they're
Dr.Bashah (11:30):
like somewhere in between.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:32):
Like 9 until 12 13 where
where they really begin tobe teenagers, right?
Dr.Bashah (11:38):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So that's like thatin between stage.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:42):
And so
Dr.Bashah (11:42):
boys went by the time that they're
adolescents, boysbetween the ages of 16 to 25
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:48):
to 25 become more aggressive
Dr.Bashah (11:51):
physiologically.
because of testosteroneand the hormones.
And so these biochemicalchanges correlate with increased
aggression.
There's more stimulus seeking.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:04):
they're
Dr.Bashah (12:04):
more sensation seeking and their risk
taking and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:07):
impulsive.
And again,
Dr.Bashah (12:09):
their frontal lobes not developed so they don't have
executive functioning and skillsto like moderate.
their behaviorsor think, Oh, no,
that's going to hurt somebody.
Or, Oh, there's going tobe some legal consequences
if I do this.
Or, Oh,my parents will punish me if
I do this.
Like, you know,that comes later.
Tammy Afriat, (12:26):
and it's hard to
Dr.Bashah (12:28):
prevent.
but it is teachable,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:31):
so
Dr.Bashah (12:31):
that's why, like, you know, we're really strong
supporters of, like, athletics,
Tammy Afriat, (12:36):
It's putting them
Dr.Bashah (12:37):
in teams where they can feel, like,
a sense of pride in their sport,that's also teaching
them self discipline andself regulation, these pro
social group activities.
These tendencies If they're notcontrolled, these aggressive
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:52):
can
Dr.Bashah (12:52):
manifest into externalized
behaviors or violence, if theyhaven't
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:57):
the
Dr.Bashah (12:57):
social skills during that critical period of
time, and it canhave a very different
impact on the adolescentmale, that trend then more
towards conduct problems,oppositional defiant,
and, behaviors, whichcan be precursors for,
development of antisocialpersonality disorder later.
Tammy Afri (13:17):
So, I'm sensing that Agencies is actually
the awareness thatone has that he has
to control his own actions,behavior, thoughts, you know,
all those kind of things.
And also that if he isnot controlling them, then
there will be outcomes.
So that would affectnot only himself,
but also the peoplearound him, right?
(13:39):
Yeah, So
Dr.Bashah (13:40):
agency is a mindset.
It's adopted throughlearned behavior and having
agency is the belief that
Tammy Afri (13:47):
have the ability and power.
Dr.Bashah (13:50):
To effectively make changes that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:52):
inform your
Dr.Bashah (13:53):
being And they determine
the outcomes that thenshape your life.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:58):
This is free.
Dr.Bashah (13:59):
Well,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:59):
and so it's a belief in
Dr.Bashah (14:00):
yourself about your inner strength, your
resilience, your flexibility,your ability to adapt to
change and do difficultthings and yet still
have the ego strength.
But you're holdingthat responsibility
and accountability.
for yourself.
Now, this doesn't justhappen like you have to develop
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:18):
and
Dr.Bashah (14:18):
it's through struggle that we
learn it.
It's I call it struggle muscles.
I tell my clients all that time,like, you know, all the time.
I'm like, okay, these we haveto engage your struggle
muscles because like they needto be activated in
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:31):
for
Dr.Bashah (14:31):
us to build upon them.
So we can always change our selfnarrative.
So what we tell ourselves,if we really believe we're
the victim, we've been wronged.
It was their fault.
They're the oppressor.
Tammy Afriat, (14:42):
You know, we have
Dr.Bashah (14:42):
to be able to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:44):
look
Dr.Bashah (14:44):
at that narrative or habit and
things that we're tellingourselves and sometimes how our
Tammy Afriat (14:51):
interacted with us
Dr.Bashah (14:53):
has tremendous impact on shaping our self
construct.
Sometimes it has to dowith our external situation
and circumstances that informthese internal scripts and the
worldview and as adults.
You know, we inturn play a large role in how
our Children willview themselves.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:11):
So
Dr.Bashah (15:11):
our goal as parents
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:12):
order to promote
Dr.Bashah (15:14):
Self agency is to raise Children who are socially
adept.
They're emotionally intelligent.
They have a sense of likea moral consciousness.
They're driven, They'reambitious, but they're also
productive members of society.
They don't just
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:29):
see
Dr.Bashah (15:29):
themselves.
They see that they'repart of a larger group and that
group is dependent on them andthey're dependent on the group.
There's this beautifulinterrelationship.
we should want themto be independent
thinkers for themselves andto fall and get back up and
to learn from that experience.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:48):
so I'm wondering how do you recommend
and also you could give somespecific example and how parents
can protect their childrenwhile they're also not, and
over overshifting them with,you know, natural consequences.
Dr.Bashah (16:04):
Yes, that's really important.
you know, so I think thatthere's a couple different tips
and strategies that Iwould suggest.
so gaming and social mediacan definitely have an
addictive potential,especially for, adolescence.
So, really monitoring Theiraccess to
smartphones, what they'redoing on their smartphones.
(16:26):
who are they communicating with?
What kind of information andcontent is being
shared with people?
They're communicating with,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (16:33):
because there are recruiters
online who are.
radicalizers from
Dr.Bashah (16:40):
extremist organizations, and they're
searching for vulnerableyouth who can be exploited.
And so monitoring theonline activity is a really
important idea, having lotsof conversations with them.
Tammy Afri (16:53):
research illustrates
Dr.Bashah (16:54):
that gaming activates this dopaminergic pathway.
It's an excitatory responsesystem, and it releases
dopamine and adrenaline, andit feels good, and it wants us.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:06):
to keep going
Dr.Bashah (17:07):
back.
Tammy Afriat, CP (17:07):
so it can have
Dr.Bashah (17:08):
that addictive component.
and this activates
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:11):
I
Dr.Bashah (17:11):
mean, we see that in all kinds of
addictions like substanceuse or gaming or gambling.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:16):
so we, we
Dr.Bashah (17:17):
just really
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:18):
want
Dr.Bashah (17:18):
to monitor it and counteract that.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:20):
Number
Dr.Bashah (17:21):
two, ideologies operate really in
a similar way as addictions.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:26):
So
Dr.Bashah (17:26):
in that people continue to
Tammy Af (17:28):
things that harm them,
Dr.Bashah (17:29):
and despite
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:31):
hurting themselves and the people
Dr.Bashah (17:32):
they love
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:33):
and they
Dr.Bashah (17:34):
can't control themselves.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:35):
And these
Dr.Bashah (17:36):
ideologies have an obsessional quality.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:39):
They can't
Dr.Bashah (17:40):
quite stop.
And, It's difficult oncethey're psychologically and
emotionally invested andengaged, which can have the
potential to risetowards the violence or
aggression.
So
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:53):
substance
Dr.Bashah (17:54):
use disorders and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:55):
ideological addictions
Dr.Bashah (17:57):
can be exacerbated by one's desire
Tammy Afriat, CP (17:59):
fill this void
Dr.Bashah (18:00):
in their
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:01):
especially
Dr.Bashah (18:01):
if they feel like They've been pushed out of
their peer group.
They're ostracized.
They're bullied.
They're not wanted.
They don't have
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:07):
sense of
Dr.Bashah (18:08):
belonging or a strong sense of identity.
And there's thisdesire to overcome
the beliefs that theirlives are destroyed, that
they're humiliated,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:17):
they're
Dr.Bashah (18:17):
embarrassed, that their life is meaningless,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:19):
or
Dr.Bashah (18:19):
that they're rejected socially.
and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:22):
they feel powerless.
Dr.Bashah (18:23):
to affect
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:24):
pro
Dr.Bashah (18:25):
social change.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:26):
So number
Dr.Bashah (18:27):
three, we really want to buffer and build the support
system to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:31):
them
Dr.Bashah (18:31):
and shield them from these possible
effects.
And so,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:35):
that
Dr.Bashah (18:36):
might be their coach, it might be their teachers,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:38):
might be
Dr.Bashah (18:38):
their community centers
that they participate in,extended family, neighbors that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:43):
trust,
Dr.Bashah (18:44):
psychologists.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:45):
that, you
Dr.Bashah (18:45):
know, when
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:46):
trust
Dr.Bashah (18:46):
are going to be positive
influences because sometimeschildren don't listen to their
parents,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:50):
they'll listen to other authority
Dr.Bashah (18:51):
figures instead.
So you might actually get some,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:56):
um.
Yeah, you might.
That's what happens whenteen, teen and preteen
comes in you say they wouldsay, no, I'm gonna do Y.
like.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dr.Bashah (19:08):
So, you know, you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:09):
start to lose that
Dr.Bashah (19:10):
influence.
So havingthose like really important
authority figures thatthey respect and admire
that you trust whoare influencing them
becomes so much more important.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:20):
can I pause you for just a
second, because this podcastis also meant younger kiddos.
Yes If could also, Give ussome example that we can
think about and the intentionin our parenting for the
toddlers that you justmentioned, it's still be great.
Yes, yeah,
Dr.Bashah (19:38):
absolutely.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:39):
So I'll
Dr.Bashah (19:39):
just finish off these recommendations
and then
Tammy Afriat, C (19:42):
I'll talk about
Dr.Bashah (19:42):
the toddlers.
Tammy Afriat, C (19:44):
so number four,
Dr.Bashah (19:45):
I would say, don't alienate them.
. You know, especially like,for the older older ones,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:51):
You
Dr.Bashah (19:51):
know, if they've already become
ideologically extreme.
in their belief systems
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:57):
or
Dr.Bashah (19:57):
in their behaviors, you don't really
want to engage in
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:00):
power
Dr.Bashah (20:00):
struggle with them.
research tells us byconfronting their
beliefs head on
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:05):
people
Dr.Bashah (20:06):
who have already become radicalized,
it's just going tofurther push them away and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:09):
going
Dr.Bashah (20:09):
to see you as, an opposition.
And so you're not going to haveany influence at that point.
So rather than trying to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:17):
them
Dr.Bashah (20:17):
with facts, really just...
Go in questioning, likebe very open with them,
supportive with them.
Tammy Afriat, (20:25):
really not trying
Dr.Bashah (20:26):
to engage in like counter evidence and
that kind of conversation ordispute with them,
but really just ask themquestions like, how did they get
to that solution?
How did they get tothat concept or idea?
What led them there?
So have them extrapolate
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:43):
themselves so
Dr.Bashah (20:44):
that they
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:44):
also
Dr.Bashah (20:45):
see that there are things that don't quite add
up or piece together forthem and really.
Reinforcing their morals andethics and values that you and
that person shared,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:57):
before
Dr.Bashah (20:58):
they were radicalized.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:00):
So
Dr.Bashah (21:00):
what we know with tribalism
is that people who adopt acertain
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:06):
identity
Dr.Bashah (21:07):
to a group
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:09):
that they
Dr.Bashah (21:10):
become so invested
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:11):
and
Dr.Bashah (21:12):
so loyal that.
there's nothing thatthis group can do wrong.
So they're constantly justifyingthings that they do that
may be immoral or harmful,or hurtful to other people.
, what we want to do is really
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:26):
pull
Dr.Bashah (21:27):
up this cognitive dissonance and
say, Hey, you know, there is atension
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:32):
that's there that there's anxiety that's
Dr.Bashah (21:35):
produced because.
It goes againstyour morals, what
you're doing andwhat you're agreeing
with and what you're sayinggoes against the foundation
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:47):
what
Dr.Bashah (21:48):
you believe in.
And so if you cankeep that construct of
that dialectic, we callit in psychology, that That
conflict that's there anddo some deeper work, it can help
to prevent going off thedeeper end and just
justifying everythingthat your group has
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:06):
doing or
Dr.Bashah (22:07):
saying.
And I mean, honestly,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:08):
what we've
Dr.Bashah (22:08):
been seeing with, pro Hamas,
supporters who are just,you know, defending Hamas.
Irrespective of whothey murdered and
how they killed them and,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:19):
the
Dr.Bashah (22:19):
barbaric and sadistic and savage acts
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:23):
they
Dr.Bashah (22:23):
had committed against innocent civilians,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:26):
and say
Dr.Bashah (22:26):
things like, Israeli, Israelis deserved it.
Tammy Afriat, (22:29):
You know, they're
Dr.Bashah (22:30):
the colonizer, they're the
oppressor.
it was just a matter of time.
And so, really, that'sas an example.
So the last recommendationI would say is,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:40):
you
Dr.Bashah (22:41):
know, during times of loss and grief
and trauma, we can allbe confronted with this like
deep existential questioningat various times in our lives.
Like asking, who am I?
What am I about?
What do I believe in?
Where do I derivemeaning and purpose?
What am I meant to do in mylife?
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:59):
And
Dr.Bashah (22:59):
we can find ourselves at
different times,feeling insecure, feeling
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:03):
unsure of
Dr.Bashah (23:04):
ourselves.
and this processreally informs identity
construction andinforms what we do and why we do
it.
And it.
It's important because theother side of it is that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:16):
promotes a
Dr.Bashah (23:16):
dissolution of self and so by engaging in
activities that promote
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:20):
this meaning
Dr.Bashah (23:21):
and purpose, a sense of belonging and
commitment to communityand pro social ways
can really strengthen ouridentity and confidence
and security and who we are.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:31):
I get that.
And that's actually somethingthat you could start and do
with your toddlers, you know,start and see where
their passion lies.
so they can invest their timeand their energy there in the,
you know, whatever they likedo sports, art and craft,
theater, whatever it is.
Right.
And so they grow into theplace where they feel belongs.
(23:52):
they feel the meaningof their life.
They, they feel connectedand feel their value.
Dr.Bashah (23:57):
yeah, absolutely.
And
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:59):
I
Dr.Bashah (23:59):
just wanted to address your
other question about,
Tammy Afr (24:02):
know, over protecting
Dr.Bashah (24:03):
children or like, what
Tammy Afriat, CP (24:04):
parents do for
Dr.Bashah (24:05):
toddlers?
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:06):
so
Dr.Bashah (24:06):
parents who
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:06):
over protect Children foster
Dr.Bashah (24:09):
high degrees of stress and anxiety and an
inability for their Children
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:13):
learn how
Dr.Bashah (24:14):
to deal with challenges on their
own that they're going toface as a young adult.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:18):
So
Dr.Bashah (24:19):
it's a balancing act, right?
Obviously you want.
To ensure that your childis physically
safe, but sometimes
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:27):
them to
Dr.Bashah (24:27):
really do
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:28):
things that
Dr.Bashah (24:28):
are emotionally difficult,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:30):
to
Dr.Bashah (24:30):
build that resilience and that trust
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:33):
belief in
Dr.Bashah (24:33):
themselves factor.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:35):
going
Dr.Bashah (24:35):
to build that confidence that they have
in themselves to know I can
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:39):
through this.
I
Dr.Bashah (24:40):
can survive this.
I can find a way out.
I can find a creative solution.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:44):
So
Dr.Bashah (24:45):
that confidence only happens in their.
That personalintersection with others without
interference by a parentattempting to save them.
If you come in and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:54):
save
Dr.Bashah (24:54):
them and rescue them, they're
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:55):
not going
Dr.Bashah (24:56):
to learn those skills.
Cause they'll, they'llthink, well, my parents
don't believe inme and trust me to
be able to get through it.
Why should I?
and children, like
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:05):
they
Dr.Bashah (25:05):
absorb everything.
Tammy Afriat, (25:07):
more what you do
Dr.Bashah (25:07):
rather than what you say.
Like what you think you'reteaching them is not what
you're teaching them.
It's how you're It's everythingelse.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:13):
all
Dr.Bashah (25:13):
the non verbals that you're showing them that
they're absorbing.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:17):
So
Dr.Bashah (25:18):
we have to be mindful of that too.
Tammy Afriat, C (25:20):
So between, you
Dr.Bashah (25:21):
know, usually two and four years old,
children learn how theiraggression and unwillingness to
share or be nice creates anenvironment where other
children might not wantto play with them or
reject them Right?
And so they learn from that.
Are they going to continue beingaggressive or are they going to
(25:42):
play nice and be kind andshare?
so they.
Children also learn how to gainacceptance by understanding
these naturalconsequences, even at an early
age.
So as a parent, we don't want toprevent them from
having that learning by
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:58):
coming in
Dr.Bashah (25:58):
and rescuing them, because it's so
important to their development.
And it's part of resilience,because it's an important
life skill with many benefits.
So it's criticalthat parents obviously
ensure your child is safe,but it's also key to balance
that While making them strongand emotionally intelligent.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (26:16):
So when you mentioned kind
of do not own your childdiscomfort and actually take
responsibility your child whenhe does those unacceptable
thing in social setting.
And I want following that,I want to ask you because in
your book, you have somethingthat I really resonate with.
You talk aboutrestorative justice.
(26:39):
versus punitive justice inthe context of countries.
But I to ask you, when itcomes to sibling fights, how
do you implement that ideato help, parent be a better
Dr.Bashah (26:53):
parent?
Hi, Basha.
are you today?
Dr.Bashah (00:05):
Good.
Tami.
Thank you so much for havingme on your show.
It's anhonor to meet you and to get to
know you and be invited on yourpodcast during these difficult
Tammy Afriat, CPC (00:16):
times.
Thank you for collaborating me.
And I think we were intouch for a couple of weeks.
And kind karma that weget to do this interview,
right after the horrificevents happening in Israel
by a terrorist organizationcalled Hamas . So I really
appreciate you taking time andsharing your perspective as a
(00:38):
psychologist and from your ownpersonal and family experiences.
And we'll talk today abouthow to prevent extremism and.
I would love to first fromyou, how do you define
extremism and what does it hasto do with the book you wrote
called Addicted Ideologies?
Dr.Bashah (00:58):
Yes.
Thank you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (00:59):
much for
Dr.Bashah (00:59):
having me on your show.
So my partner, husband,father of our daughter, Paul
Johnson, and I coauthored abook, Addictive Ideologies.
Finding meaning and agencywhen politics fail you,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:12):
because we
Dr.Bashah (01:12):
were so concerned about these growing
polarizations andextremism in the U S
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:20):
and
Dr.Bashah (01:20):
also globally.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:21):
And
Dr.Bashah (01:22):
what we did is we analyzed and assessed.
, various
Tammy Afriat (01:26):
forms of genocides across the
Dr.Bashah (01:28):
globe, acts of terrorism and extremism.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:33):
And
Dr.Bashah (01:33):
we actually just came back from a
trip to Bosnia,meeting with political
and communityleaders there, really
understanding theatrocities that had been
committed to the Bosnianpopulation.
And actually we were supposedto be in Israel this
week, meeting withcommunity and political leaders.
Um, as well as
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:54):
family
Dr.Bashah (01:55):
members
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:55):
having
Dr.Bashah (01:56):
a reunion
Tammy Afriat, CPC (01:57):
with the
Dr.Bashah (01:58):
Jewish Iraqi community.
so my work, I come at this
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:02):
a
Dr.Bashah (02:02):
psychological lens.
I do work as a forensic,expert, doing evaluations
of people who are being charged
Tammy Afria (02:12):
domestic terrorism,
Dr.Bashah (02:13):
extremism, capital crimes, first degree murder.
Tammy Afriat, CP (02:17):
And Paul comes
Dr.Bashah (02:18):
at it.
He was the former mayor of.
Phoenix, served two
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:22):
in the 90s,
Dr.Bashah (02:23):
and he's a political expert and really committed,
to political reform and raisingawareness and growing the
independent party in the U.
S.
and reducing extremismin politics today.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:36):
So
Dr.Bashah (02:37):
we originally looked at
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:39):
family's
Dr.Bashah (02:40):
story as a case.
study in our book and reallyextrapolated that to show and
illustrate how this could happen
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:48):
and how
Dr.Bashah (02:49):
none of us are really immune to it.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:51):
and it
Dr.Bashah (02:51):
does give
Tammy Afriat, CPC (02:52):
a
Dr.Bashah (02:52):
good sound theory and understanding of how
someone like a terroristorganization like Hamas.
Could commit such violentforms of atrocities
against Israeli citizens,children, babies,
women, elderly, disabled.
and what we find isthat they're all tied
(03:15):
to an ideology.
And that theseideologies that become
violent are ones thattend to see people as an
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:24):
out group.
There's a
Dr.Bashah (03:25):
groupthink mentality that is happening.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:27):
They
Dr.Bashah (03:28):
see themselves as victims and
oppressed.
And then that lends itself
Tammy Afriat (03:33):
justification that
Dr.Bashah (03:35):
of the outgroup as being the oppressor.
And it justifies the violence.
more so it's dehumanizing of theoppressor.
And so that's why we can see
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:46):
the rhetoric, a
Dr.Bashah (03:47):
lot of the propaganda that's
Tammy Afriat, CPC (03:49):
pushed
Dr.Bashah (03:49):
from Hamas is really seeing and inflaming
that they're the ones who arevictimized and
justifying the acts ofvengeance against Israelis
because they're not seeing
Tammy Afria (03:59):
Israelis as part of
Dr.Bashah (04:01):
this shared humanity, or, or as human.
And.
There is an addiction that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:07):
that we see
Dr.Bashah (04:08):
with these kinds of extremist groups,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:11):
and various
Dr.Bashah (04:11):
organizations, or even people individually who
commit terrorist attacks, even
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:15):
U.
S.
Dr.Bashah (04:16):
soil, um, is that there, there are
these push and pull factors.
They start to be.
pulled from thingsthat would ground them
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:24):
root them
Dr.Bashah (04:24):
and connect them to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:26):
a
Dr.Bashah (04:26):
sense of belonging,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:27):
a
Dr.Bashah (04:27):
shared identity and pushing them more
towards radicalization.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:32):
And
Dr.Bashah (04:32):
especially there are some vulnerability factors.
We can see that radicalorganizations or radical leaders
can help prey upon peoplewho are more vulnerable
Tammy Afriat, CPC (04:42):
to
Dr.Bashah (04:42):
really indoctrinate them towards these
radical forms of ideology.
So there's a lot of differentprocesses, but really,
I mean, it's quite simple.
There'snothing that justifies or
condones the acts thatHamas had inflicted in
this last week and on the50th Yom Kippur War
and on the Shabbat
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:04):
in
Dr.Bashah (05:04):
Israel and beheading babies and infants
and tying hands of Children, uh,behind their backs and killing
them execution style, rapingwomen and parading them in
the streets and celebratingtheir victory and dancing
and singing and chanting.
of these
Tam (05:24):
Horrific, uh, sadistic acts
Dr.Bashah (05:26):
that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:26):
been committed.
Dr.Bashah (05:28):
I mean, it's really, it's
savage and barbaric, and there's
Tammy Afriat, (05:30):
no justification.
Dr.Bashah (05:32):
Um, our work is, if we can understand it, we can
prevent it.
And there are a lot ofcommonalities that we
see across time andacross the globe
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:42):
in,
, Dr.Bashah (05:42):
various genocides.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (05:44):
what we saw
Dr.Bashah (05:45):
actually in Iraq.
When my parents were livingthere, was that,
you know, these wereeveryday people who just
suddenly joined in the forcesof the Ba'ath Party and the rise
of Saddam Hussein, and theycreated the Jews as a
scapegoat and ostracized themand, said that they
are the ones who areoppressing you and
(06:06):
they're the ones to blame,for, you everything that
is going wrong in your life.
And so we have to get rid ofthem and they're not human.
They're, they don't share
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:18):
same humanity
Dr.Bashah (06:19):
as us and, and they're less
than human.
And in doing so we saw.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:24):
assets
Dr.Bashah (06:24):
were seized
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:25):
of Jewish
Dr.Bashah (06:26):
citizens, business partners, had turned on Jews,
businesses were looted, Jews
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:32):
had to
Dr.Bashah (06:33):
escape for their
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:34):
They
Dr.Bashah (06:34):
had to go through underground passages.
my father has aharrowing story of.
Escaping through Kurds,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:41):
the Kurds
Dr.Bashah (06:42):
had smuggled him into Iran.
This was before therevolution at the time.
And, there was a safehouse in Tehran for him
and the U S we're helping
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:51):
different
Dr.Bashah (06:52):
operations, to assist these Jews coming out of,
these Arab worlds, to have safe
Tammy Afriat, CPC (06:59):
to
Dr.Bashah (06:59):
Israel.
but what happened is.
You know, it doesn't justhappen overnight, but how
is it that masses amounts ofpeople can just condone such
violence against people whowere their neighbors, their
friends, their businesspartners, the shopkeepers.
they went to school with them.
How is it that they can justturn on them after having those
solidified relationships?
(07:21):
And my family has been inBaghdad since 500 BC.
This isn't,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:25):
you know,
Dr.Bashah (07:25):
they are
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:26):
Arab Jews.
We
Dr.Bashah (07:27):
are Arab Jews.
Babylon is our home
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:30):
and we're not
Dr.Bashah (07:31):
foreigners.
and so
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:33):
being able to
Dr.Bashah (07:34):
extrapolate what is going on, Paul and I were
really able to elucidate.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:38):
elucidate the risk
Dr.Bashah (07:39):
factors for one to be pushed
Tammy Afriat, C (07:43):
these addictive
Dr.Bashah (07:44):
ideologies and the risk is
seeing oneself as avictim and seeing the
other as the oppressor.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (07:50):
So, when you talk about terrorist
organization, we also kindof see as a whole, you know,
that's it an organization,but I want to take it to
the very person who decided.
to do it.
To join those terrororganization and adapt
those ideologies.
And I want you, because inthe book you are talking
(08:12):
about the sense of agency.
So if you could pleaseelaborate on what does
Dr.Bashah (08:16):
that mean?
Yeah.
So, you know, personalagency and I realized,
your podcast
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:21):
also, you
Dr.Bashah (08:21):
know, for mothers and, Parents,
uh, raising Children.
So I think addinga developmental approach and
lens might makesome sense for your audience.
Tammy Afriat, C (08:33):
You know, there
Dr.Bashah (08:34):
is a developmental approach to violence.
So there's longitudinalstudies that reveal that
Tammy Afria (08:39):
the most aggressive
Dr.Bashah (08:40):
age across the lifespan are actually
toddlers.
So anyone who has a 2 yearold know that.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:48):
They're still learning.
Dr.Bashah (08:49):
They're still socializing.
They don't necessarilyunderstand social
emotional reciprocity.
It takes time forthem to learn what
Tammy Afriat, CPC (08:56):
norms
Dr.Bashah (08:57):
are and to see that they're going to
be pushed
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:00):
outside
Dr.Bashah (09:00):
of the group and not have friends if they're
going to be mean to themor stealing their toys or
hitting them on the head.
and, you know, it seems kindof preposterous.
to consider sincechildren, you know,
we see them as pure asinnocent, but aggression
variable study includelike forceful hitting, biting,
(09:21):
pushing, pullingon another person's body,
which two year olds do.
So between the ages oftwo and four is really
crucial for parents to modeland teach.
Pro social behavior.
And really, you're teaching them
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:35):
that
Dr.Bashah (09:35):
they're they are their own
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:37):
being, and
Dr.Bashah (09:38):
they do have agency and responsibility, and they
need to be accountable for theirbehaviors.
And so if a child can'tsocially adapt and they're
being ostracized by others and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:50):
pushed
Dr.Bashah (09:51):
out of the group, they don't necessarily
learn these skills and theycan become emotionally and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (09:56):
stunted in
Dr.Bashah (09:57):
their development.
So I see this in adultsthat I see either in
the forensic work or clinicalwork that I do where there
is this, like stunteddevelopmental growth.
That they need to
Tammy Afr (10:08):
relearn because there were
Dr.Bashah (10:10):
missed opportunities in
their childhood.
While
Tammy Afriat, C (10:13):
it's a minority
Dr.Bashah (10:14):
of children, I should say, so
parents don't freak out.
Parents ultimatelyteach children to become
socially desirablethrough this exchange.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:25):
It's
Dr.Bashah (10:25):
social emotional
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:27):
That's that
Dr.Bashah (10:28):
give and take.
I'm gonna share this toywith you because
I know that you'llcontinue to be my friend,
and I would rather havesomeone to play with than no
one.
you know, so those things
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:37):
important.
And through
Dr.Bashah (10:38):
the mechanism, adults and peers are now
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:40):
drawn to
Dr.Bashah (10:41):
the child because the child
gains affection
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:44):
from
Dr.Bashah (10:45):
adults.
Tammy A (10:46):
gained the benefit from
Dr.Bashah (10:47):
adults.
They get the praise from adults
Tammy Afr (10:50):
that is going to help
Dr.Bashah (10:51):
reinforce their behavior.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:53):
So you've
Dr.Bashah (10:53):
got this like varied social input
norms that all inform moral.
development
Tammy Afriat, CPC (10:59):
and
Dr.Bashah (11:00):
And we see, you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:02):
over
Dr.Bashah (11:02):
time, like the brain is
constantly developing theirability to to understand
information
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:09):
social rules, do evolve
Dr.Bashah (11:12):
over time at a deeper level
because, you know, you have
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:15):
teach it
Dr.Bashah (11:16):
at a very simple level when they're
young and then youcould expand upon that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:20):
they get
Dr.Bashah (11:20):
older.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:21):
Now with
Dr.Bashah (11:21):
adolescence, it's a little trickier because
now you've got the effectsof testosterone and the
hormones so we see thiseven with tweens, right, so
they're not
Tammy Afriat, CP (11:30):
teens, they're
Dr.Bashah (11:30):
like somewhere in between.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:32):
Like 9 until 12 13 where
where they really begin tobe teenagers, right?
Dr.Bashah (11:38):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So that's like thatin between stage.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:42):
And so
Dr.Bashah (11:42):
boys went by the time that they're
adolescents, boysbetween the ages of 16 to 25
Tammy Afriat, CPC (11:48):
to 25 become more aggressive
Dr.Bashah (11:51):
physiologically.
because of testosteroneand the hormones.
And so these biochemicalchanges correlate with increased
aggression.
There's more stimulus seeking.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:04):
they're
Dr.Bashah (12:04):
more sensation seeking and their risk
taking and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:07):
impulsive.
And again,
Dr.Bashah (12:09):
their frontal lobes not developed so they don't have
executive functioning and skillsto like moderate.
their behaviorsor think, Oh, no,
that's going to hurt somebody.
Or, Oh, there's going tobe some legal consequences
if I do this.
Or, Oh,my parents will punish me if
I do this.
Like, you know,that comes later.
Tammy Afriat, (12:26):
and it's hard to
Dr.Bashah (12:28):
prevent.
but it is teachable,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:31):
so
Dr.Bashah (12:31):
that's why, like, you know, we're really strong
supporters of, like, athletics,
Tammy Afriat, (12:36):
It's putting them
Dr.Bashah (12:37):
in teams where they can feel, like,
a sense of pride in their sport,that's also teaching
them self discipline andself regulation, these pro
social group activities.
These tendencies If they're notcontrolled, these aggressive
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:52):
can
Dr.Bashah (12:52):
manifest into externalized
behaviors or violence, if theyhaven't
Tammy Afriat, CPC (12:57):
the
Dr.Bashah (12:57):
social skills during that critical period of
time, and it canhave a very different
impact on the adolescentmale, that trend then more
towards conduct problems,oppositional defiant,
and, behaviors, whichcan be precursors for,
development of antisocialpersonality disorder later.
Tammy Afri (13:17):
So, I'm sensing that Agencies is actually
the awareness thatone has that he has
to control his own actions,behavior, thoughts, you know,
all those kind of things.
And also that if he isnot controlling them, then
there will be outcomes.
So that would affectnot only himself,
but also the peoplearound him, right?
(13:39):
Yeah, So
Dr.Bashah (13:40):
agency is a mindset.
It's adopted throughlearned behavior and having
agency is the belief that
Tammy Afri (13:47):
have the ability and power.
Dr.Bashah (13:50):
To effectively make changes that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:52):
inform your
Dr.Bashah (13:53):
being And they determine
the outcomes that thenshape your life.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:58):
This is free.
Dr.Bashah (13:59):
Well,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (13:59):
and so it's a belief in
Dr.Bashah (14:00):
yourself about your inner strength, your
resilience, your flexibility,your ability to adapt to
change and do difficultthings and yet still
have the ego strength.
But you're holdingthat responsibility
and accountability.
for yourself.
Now, this doesn't justhappen like you have to develop
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:18):
and
Dr.Bashah (14:18):
it's through struggle that we
learn it.
It's I call it struggle muscles.
I tell my clients all that time,like, you know, all the time.
I'm like, okay, these we haveto engage your struggle
muscles because like they needto be activated in
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:31):
for
Dr.Bashah (14:31):
us to build upon them.
So we can always change our selfnarrative.
So what we tell ourselves,if we really believe we're
the victim, we've been wronged.
It was their fault.
They're the oppressor.
Tammy Afriat, (14:42):
You know, we have
Dr.Bashah (14:42):
to be able to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (14:44):
look
Dr.Bashah (14:44):
at that narrative or habit and
things that we're tellingourselves and sometimes how our
Tammy Afriat (14:51):
interacted with us
Dr.Bashah (14:53):
has tremendous impact on shaping our self
construct.
Sometimes it has to dowith our external situation
and circumstances that informthese internal scripts and the
worldview and as adults.
You know, we inturn play a large role in how
our Children willview themselves.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:11):
So
Dr.Bashah (15:11):
our goal as parents
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:12):
order to promote
Dr.Bashah (15:14):
Self agency is to raise Children who are socially
adept.
They're emotionally intelligent.
They have a sense of likea moral consciousness.
They're driven, They'reambitious, but they're also
productive members of society.
They don't just
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:29):
see
Dr.Bashah (15:29):
themselves.
They see that they'repart of a larger group and that
group is dependent on them andthey're dependent on the group.
There's this beautifulinterrelationship.
we should want themto be independent
thinkers for themselves andto fall and get back up and
to learn from that experience.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (15:48):
so I'm wondering how do you recommend
and also you could give somespecific example and how parents
can protect their childrenwhile they're also not, and
over overshifting them with,you know, natural consequences.
Dr.Bashah (16:04):
Yes, that's really important.
you know, so I think thatthere's a couple different tips
and strategies that Iwould suggest.
so gaming and social mediacan definitely have an
addictive potential,especially for, adolescence.
So, really monitoring Theiraccess to
smartphones, what they'redoing on their smartphones.
(16:26):
who are they communicating with?
What kind of information andcontent is being
shared with people?
They're communicating with,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (16:33):
because there are recruiters
online who are.
radicalizers from
Dr.Bashah (16:40):
extremist organizations, and they're
searching for vulnerableyouth who can be exploited.
And so monitoring theonline activity is a really
important idea, having lotsof conversations with them.
Tammy Afri (16:53):
research illustrates
Dr.Bashah (16:54):
that gaming activates this dopaminergic pathway.
It's an excitatory responsesystem, and it releases
dopamine and adrenaline, andit feels good, and it wants us.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:06):
to keep going
Dr.Bashah (17:07):
back.
Tammy Afriat, CP (17:07):
so it can have
Dr.Bashah (17:08):
that addictive component.
and this activates
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:11):
I
Dr.Bashah (17:11):
mean, we see that in all kinds of
addictions like substanceuse or gaming or gambling.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:16):
so we, we
Dr.Bashah (17:17):
just really
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:18):
want
Dr.Bashah (17:18):
to monitor it and counteract that.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:20):
Number
Dr.Bashah (17:21):
two, ideologies operate really in
a similar way as addictions.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:26):
So
Dr.Bashah (17:26):
in that people continue to
Tammy Af (17:28):
things that harm them,
Dr.Bashah (17:29):
and despite
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:31):
hurting themselves and the people
Dr.Bashah (17:32):
they love
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:33):
and they
Dr.Bashah (17:34):
can't control themselves.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:35):
And these
Dr.Bashah (17:36):
ideologies have an obsessional quality.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:39):
They can't
Dr.Bashah (17:40):
quite stop.
And, It's difficult oncethey're psychologically and
emotionally invested andengaged, which can have the
potential to risetowards the violence or
aggression.
So
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:53):
substance
Dr.Bashah (17:54):
use disorders and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (17:55):
ideological addictions
Dr.Bashah (17:57):
can be exacerbated by one's desire
Tammy Afriat, CP (17:59):
fill this void
Dr.Bashah (18:00):
in their
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:01):
especially
Dr.Bashah (18:01):
if they feel like They've been pushed out of
their peer group.
They're ostracized.
They're bullied.
They're not wanted.
They don't have
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:07):
sense of
Dr.Bashah (18:08):
belonging or a strong sense of identity.
And there's thisdesire to overcome
the beliefs that theirlives are destroyed, that
they're humiliated,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:17):
they're
Dr.Bashah (18:17):
embarrassed, that their life is meaningless,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:19):
or
Dr.Bashah (18:19):
that they're rejected socially.
and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:22):
they feel powerless.
Dr.Bashah (18:23):
to affect
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:24):
pro
Dr.Bashah (18:25):
social change.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:26):
So number
Dr.Bashah (18:27):
three, we really want to buffer and build the support
system to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:31):
them
Dr.Bashah (18:31):
and shield them from these possible
effects.
And so,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:35):
that
Dr.Bashah (18:36):
might be their coach, it might be their teachers,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:38):
might be
Dr.Bashah (18:38):
their community centers
that they participate in,extended family, neighbors that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:43):
trust,
Dr.Bashah (18:44):
psychologists.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:45):
that, you
Dr.Bashah (18:45):
know, when
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:46):
trust
Dr.Bashah (18:46):
are going to be positive
influences because sometimeschildren don't listen to their
parents,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:50):
they'll listen to other authority
Dr.Bashah (18:51):
figures instead.
So you might actually get some,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (18:56):
um.
Yeah, you might.
That's what happens whenteen, teen and preteen
comes in you say they wouldsay, no, I'm gonna do Y.
like.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dr.Bashah (19:08):
So, you know, you
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:09):
start to lose that
Dr.Bashah (19:10):
influence.
So havingthose like really important
authority figures thatthey respect and admire
that you trust whoare influencing them
becomes so much more important.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:20):
can I pause you for just a
second, because this podcastis also meant younger kiddos.
Yes If could also, Give ussome example that we can
think about and the intentionin our parenting for the
toddlers that you justmentioned, it's still be great.
Yes, yeah,
Dr.Bashah (19:38):
absolutely.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:39):
So I'll
Dr.Bashah (19:39):
just finish off these recommendations
and then
Tammy Afriat, C (19:42):
I'll talk about
Dr.Bashah (19:42):
the toddlers.
Tammy Afriat, C (19:44):
so number four,
Dr.Bashah (19:45):
I would say, don't alienate them.
. You know, especially like,for the older older ones,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:51):
You
Dr.Bashah (19:51):
know, if they've already become
ideologically extreme.
in their belief systems
Tammy Afriat, CPC (19:57):
or
Dr.Bashah (19:57):
in their behaviors, you don't really
want to engage in
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:00):
power
Dr.Bashah (20:00):
struggle with them.
research tells us byconfronting their
beliefs head on
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:05):
people
Dr.Bashah (20:06):
who have already become radicalized,
it's just going tofurther push them away and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:09):
going
Dr.Bashah (20:09):
to see you as, an opposition.
And so you're not going to haveany influence at that point.
So rather than trying to
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:17):
them
Dr.Bashah (20:17):
with facts, really just...
Go in questioning, likebe very open with them,
supportive with them.
Tammy Afriat, (20:25):
really not trying
Dr.Bashah (20:26):
to engage in like counter evidence and
that kind of conversation ordispute with them,
but really just ask themquestions like, how did they get
to that solution?
How did they get tothat concept or idea?
What led them there?
So have them extrapolate
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:43):
themselves so
Dr.Bashah (20:44):
that they
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:44):
also
Dr.Bashah (20:45):
see that there are things that don't quite add
up or piece together forthem and really.
Reinforcing their morals andethics and values that you and
that person shared,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (20:57):
before
Dr.Bashah (20:58):
they were radicalized.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:00):
So
Dr.Bashah (21:00):
what we know with tribalism
is that people who adopt acertain
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:06):
identity
Dr.Bashah (21:07):
to a group
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:09):
that they
Dr.Bashah (21:10):
become so invested
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:11):
and
Dr.Bashah (21:12):
so loyal that.
there's nothing thatthis group can do wrong.
So they're constantly justifyingthings that they do that
may be immoral or harmful,or hurtful to other people.
, what we want to do is really
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:26):
pull
Dr.Bashah (21:27):
up this cognitive dissonance and
say, Hey, you know, there is atension
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:32):
that's there that there's anxiety that's
Dr.Bashah (21:35):
produced because.
It goes againstyour morals, what
you're doing andwhat you're agreeing
with and what you're sayinggoes against the foundation
Tammy Afriat, CPC (21:47):
what
Dr.Bashah (21:48):
you believe in.
And so if you cankeep that construct of
that dialectic, we callit in psychology, that That
conflict that's there anddo some deeper work, it can help
to prevent going off thedeeper end and just
justifying everythingthat your group has
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:06):
doing or
Dr.Bashah (22:07):
saying.
And I mean, honestly,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:08):
what we've
Dr.Bashah (22:08):
been seeing with, pro Hamas,
supporters who are just,you know, defending Hamas.
Irrespective of whothey murdered and
how they killed them and,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:19):
the
Dr.Bashah (22:19):
barbaric and sadistic and savage acts
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:23):
they
Dr.Bashah (22:23):
had committed against innocent civilians,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:26):
and say
Dr.Bashah (22:26):
things like, Israeli, Israelis deserved it.
Tammy Afriat, (22:29):
You know, they're
Dr.Bashah (22:30):
the colonizer, they're the
oppressor.
it was just a matter of time.
And so, really, that'sas an example.
So the last recommendationI would say is,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:40):
you
Dr.Bashah (22:41):
know, during times of loss and grief
and trauma, we can allbe confronted with this like
deep existential questioningat various times in our lives.
Like asking, who am I?
What am I about?
What do I believe in?
Where do I derivemeaning and purpose?
What am I meant to do in mylife?
Tammy Afriat, CPC (22:59):
And
Dr.Bashah (22:59):
we can find ourselves at
different times,feeling insecure, feeling
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:03):
unsure of
Dr.Bashah (23:04):
ourselves.
and this processreally informs identity
construction andinforms what we do and why we do
it.
And it.
It's important because theother side of it is that
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:16):
promotes a
Dr.Bashah (23:16):
dissolution of self and so by engaging in
activities that promote
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:20):
this meaning
Dr.Bashah (23:21):
and purpose, a sense of belonging and
commitment to communityand pro social ways
can really strengthen ouridentity and confidence
and security and who we are.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:31):
I get that.
And that's actually somethingthat you could start and do
with your toddlers, you know,start and see where
their passion lies.
so they can invest their timeand their energy there in the,
you know, whatever they likedo sports, art and craft,
theater, whatever it is.
Right.
And so they grow into theplace where they feel belongs.
(23:52):
they feel the meaningof their life.
They, they feel connectedand feel their value.
Dr.Bashah (23:57):
yeah, absolutely.
And
Tammy Afriat, CPC (23:59):
I
Dr.Bashah (23:59):
just wanted to address your
other question about,
Tammy Afr (24:02):
know, over protecting
Dr.Bashah (24:03):
children or like, what
Tammy Afriat, CP (24:04):
parents do for
Dr.Bashah (24:05):
toddlers?
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:06):
so
Dr.Bashah (24:06):
parents who
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:06):
over protect Children foster
Dr.Bashah (24:09):
high degrees of stress and anxiety and an
inability for their Children
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:13):
learn how
Dr.Bashah (24:14):
to deal with challenges on their
own that they're going toface as a young adult.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:18):
So
Dr.Bashah (24:19):
it's a balancing act, right?
Obviously you want.
To ensure that your childis physically
safe, but sometimes
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:27):
them to
Dr.Bashah (24:27):
really do
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:28):
things that
Dr.Bashah (24:28):
are emotionally difficult,
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:30):
to
Dr.Bashah (24:30):
build that resilience and that trust
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:33):
belief in
Dr.Bashah (24:33):
themselves factor.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:35):
going
Dr.Bashah (24:35):
to build that confidence that they have
in themselves to know I can
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:39):
through this.
I
Dr.Bashah (24:40):
can survive this.
I can find a way out.
I can find a creative solution.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:44):
So
Dr.Bashah (24:45):
that confidence only happens in their.
That personalintersection with others without
interference by a parentattempting to save them.
If you come in and
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:54):
save
Dr.Bashah (24:54):
them and rescue them, they're
Tammy Afriat, CPC (24:55):
not going
Dr.Bashah (24:56):
to learn those skills.
Cause they'll, they'llthink, well, my parents
don't believe inme and trust me to
be able to get through it.
Why should I?
and children, like
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:05):
they
Dr.Bashah (25:05):
absorb everything.
Tammy Afriat, (25:07):
more what you do
Dr.Bashah (25:07):
rather than what you say.
Like what you think you'reteaching them is not what
you're teaching them.
It's how you're It's everythingelse.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:13):
all
Dr.Bashah (25:13):
the non verbals that you're showing them that
they're absorbing.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:17):
So
Dr.Bashah (25:18):
we have to be mindful of that too.
Tammy Afriat, C (25:20):
So between, you
Dr.Bashah (25:21):
know, usually two and four years old,
children learn how theiraggression and unwillingness to
share or be nice creates anenvironment where other
children might not wantto play with them or
reject them Right?
And so they learn from that.
Are they going to continue beingaggressive or are they going to
(25:42):
play nice and be kind andshare?
so they.
Children also learn how to gainacceptance by understanding
these naturalconsequences, even at an early
age.
So as a parent, we don't want toprevent them from
having that learning by
Tammy Afriat, CPC (25:58):
coming in
Dr.Bashah (25:58):
and rescuing them, because it's so
important to their development.
And it's part of resilience,because it's an important
life skill with many benefits.
So it's criticalthat parents obviously
ensure your child is safe,but it's also key to balance
that While making them strongand emotionally intelligent.
Tammy Afriat, CPC (26:16):
So when you mentioned kind
of do not own your childdiscomfort and actually take
responsibility your child whenhe does those unacceptable
thing in social setting.
And I want following that,I want to ask you because in
your book, you have somethingthat I really resonate with.
You talk aboutrestorative justice.
(26:39):
versus punitive justice inthe context of countries.
But I to ask you, when itcomes to sibling fights, how
do you implement that ideato help, parent be a better
Dr.Bashah (26:53):
parent?
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