October 28, 2025 • 36 mins
The most important conversations in a church rarely happen behind a desk; they start in pews, hallways, and kitchens. We sat down with Pastor Seth to explore how counseling can move from a specialized silo to a normal rhythm of discipleship, where Scripture, the Spirit, and the local church work together to bring hope, clarity, and change. Instead of outsourcing every struggle, we outline a path to recover competent Christian counseling inside the body—biblical, compassionate, and practical.
We dig into why counseling is baked into creation itself, why the fall makes it indispensable, and how the Bible equips us for salvation and sanctification. Seth shares a clear framework for competence: a counselor shaped by God’s Word, dependent on the Counselor-Spirit, and supported by a healthy church. We talk through common tensions—when to keep care in-house, when to refer, and how to navigate intimidating labels without losing pastoral wisdom. Expect concrete examples, from helping marriages on the brink to guiding everyday decisions, all while keeping the gospel central.
You’ll hear how ordinary believers can grow a baseline of skill, why pastors must equip rather than carry every burden, and practical ways to build a culture of “member-to-member” care. We highlight tools and training that actually change lives, starting with our own. If you’ve wondered how to help people suffer well, counsel unbelievers with integrity, or turn Sunday sermons into weekday care, this conversation will give you steps you can use immediately.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a leader who cares about people, and leave a review to help others find it. Got questions or stories from your church? Reach out—we’d love to hear them.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon (00:00):
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I had anawesome opportunity to sit down
with Pastor Seth Rambicure.
And we had a conversation aboutthe need for counseling in the
(00:23):
church, really competentChristian counseling, and
thinking about practical ways inwhich the whole congregation is
able to counsel one anotherthrough God's word.
And so I hope as you listen tothis episode, it's encouraging
to you, helps you to thinkcarefully about counseling, the
role as a congregation member, amember of a church, and the
(00:46):
role that you play incounseling.
Well, Seth, thanks for joiningme on the podcast today.
It's exciting to be able to sitdown with you and talk on this
subject of counseling in thechurch.
So uh again, thanks forjoining.
(01:07):
Want to just kind of givelisteners uh just a quick kind
of rundown on uh who you are andwhat you're doing.
You're a pastor.
Seth (01:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, thanks for havingme.
Yeah, this is fun.
Um, yep, I'm Seth Rambic here.
I'm uh one of the pastors atExeter Chapel, um, which is uh
actually a church plant ofQuidnesset um back in the
eighties.
Was it the eighties?
Yes, so we have thatconnection.
Yeah, mid mid eighties.
Um the the chapel itself um inExeter was built in uh in you
(01:40):
know 1990, 91, something likethat.
Jon (01:42):
So okay.
Seth (01:43):
Yeah, but I haven't been pastor for that long.
I was hired in 2018, so um Igrew up there.
And uh and yeah.
Yep.
Uh what else would you like toknow?
Jon (01:55):
I know you're passionate about counseling.
And it's something there'swe'll talk uh I think a little
later on about maybe some of thethings that you're working on
and some of the projects by wayof uh counseling network.
But uh yeah, I wanted to justbring you on because I think
this is an important subject.
Figured, you know, you'd be theguy to you know shed some light
on this, talk about it, andjust kind of raise awareness of
(02:17):
the need and why counseling inthe church is important.
That's that's really the youknow kind of the purpose here.
Thinking about this idea of uhcompetent Christian counseling,
right?
There, I mean, there'scounseling, there's Christian
counseling, and then there'scompetent Christian counseling.
Yeah.
Seth (02:35):
All those words are important.
Jon (02:36):
Yeah, right.
I mean, we could sit and unpackeach one of them uh if we
wanted to, but uh let's talkjust briefly about the need.
Do you think and see that thereis a need for counseling in the
church?
Seth (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, uh anecdotally, I thinkwe could all say, oh, you know,
I know someone that has amental health struggle, if you
will.
There's a mental health crisisgoing on.
Or, you know, or I know amarried couple, you know, at our
church that, you know, justcan't get along.
Um and so I think we probablyall, you know, can sort of
(03:12):
sense, you know, there's a feltneed for counseling.
Um people, you know, whetherwhether they go to the church
for it or not, um, people go forcounseling a lot these days.
Um on the theological sidethough, I think it's objectively
necessary that uh we needcounsel.
(03:34):
Uh when he was created, Adamneeded counsel.
Um we don't know who we arewithout God's revelation.
So, you know, God and God'sGod's counseling Adam in the
garden before the fall and uhand telling him who he is and
how he's related to Eve and youknow, all of those things.
Um he's created in God's imageto represent and reflect him.
(03:57):
Um you know, and we don't wedon't have that without without
God's counsel, without withoutrevelation.
So counseling objectively is aneed.
And then, you know, after thefall, even much more so.
Jon (04:11):
Oh yeah, for sure for sure, absolutely.
So yeah, as you were saying,like after the fall, of course,
like you we see a great need forI mean, there's there's human
sinfulness, and as a result ofthat, there's gonna be a need
for counseling.
Exactly.
And helping to understand.
I love that you you know youroot counseling in Genesis one,
(04:32):
Genesis one and two.
Um, because truly, I mean,understanding who we are in
light of who God is and hisrevelation of as he counseled
Adam, yeah, I think that'sthat's so foundational to
starting there.
I mean, maybe all the answersare in Genesis.
Seth (04:48):
Yeah.
For sure.
Uh, but you know, to to go goto the New Testament, you look
at Romans 1 and Paul'sdescription of the problem, um,
and describing the fall of man,where man rejects the knowledge
of God, and uh, and then his hismind, his understanding is
darkened.
Well, there you have the needfor counseling.
(05:09):
And so that's a that's a stepback from, oh, I know this
couple that needs counseling, orthis other person, or what no,
we all need counsel.
Jon (05:16):
And we and we and we all don't need counsel just when
things are bad either, right?
Right.
There's there's somepreventative care that's done by
counseling as well.
So I we definitely want toclear the the stigma that like
if you're getting counseling,that means there's something
completely shipwreck with you.
That's not always the case.
And I and I mean sometimes itis, and sometimes there's need
(05:39):
of crisis counseling.
And um but as kind of pastorstoo, you know, and I think about
the need for counseling in thechurch, I think there's a great
need in in that there's atension between what the church
can do and then sometimes what'soutsourced by way of
counseling.
And sometimes I I think one ofthe issues is either everything
(06:03):
gets tried to get taken care ofin the church or everything gets
outsourced.
We'll leave that to theprofessionals kind of attitude.
And I do think there is a placefor have a you know, a bit more
credentialed and professionalin Christian counseling that
maybe lay people can't do.
Um yeah, I don't know if youwant to just talk a little bit
about that, maybe in your ownexperience.
(06:24):
Do you see, have you seen wherethere's been a lot of
outsourcing or try to handle alot of things internally?
Yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
Seth (06:32):
Well, no, I think that's a fact.
Um and and uh the the modernmovement of of biblical
counseling, if you will, youknow, started back late 60s,
early 70s with with a guy namedJay Adams, you know, and a
couple of colleagues who sawthat basically the church had
abdicated its role on oncounseling.
Um and so if a if a person isgoing to receive talk therapy,
(06:57):
they don't go to the church toget it.
And that sort of started withthe whole professionalism
movement earlier in the centurywhere where you know if you're
gonna do somethingprofessionally, well then a
profession gets together andthere's a board that certifies
them, and you know, whetheryou're a doctor or or you're
some kind of technician, nowHVAC technicians, right?
(07:17):
You you get certified to dothat, right?
You don't just go and work onyour air conditioning, you know.
And so that's that's what's youknow, quote unquote normal now.
And so the world doesn't lookat the church as a place where
you know you could getprofessional help.
Um, but I think God's wordtells a little bit of a
different story.
And you know, are there medicalissues?
(07:38):
Absolutely.
You know, are are we a body anda soul?
Absolutely.
And so there's there's thingsthat you need uh that that you
need counsel, which you know,which by nature is talking.
That's that's that's talktherapy.
Um but then there's there'sthings where you might need
medicine, and then it's it'sdrawing that line.
(07:59):
There a lot there's a lot ofdifferent opinions on where that
line is exactly, right?
Jon (08:03):
And it's it's not so black and white once you get there.
Right.
Um because the church is a tobe a place of of hope, of
healing, of restoration.
I mean, we we have the greateststory that changes lives, like
we've seen it so many times withthe gospel that and the
transforming power of the HolySpirit in the life of a
(08:26):
believer.
And so, yeah, we think likewe've got that, but then we need
a little bit more and a littlebit more of this and that.
And I think at times we justneed to, I don't want to
oversimplify, but there's acentrality of the gospel in the
life of the believer that makesa difference.
Sure.
But marriage on the rocks,difficulty, you know, adjusting
(08:48):
to transitions in life.
There are many places where wecan lean into the church uh and
find help there through counsel.
Seth (08:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Jon (08:59):
And so maybe there's a counseling gap in the church,
and so one of the things we wantto do is kind of a recovery of
churches as centers for counsel,right?
Seth (09:10):
Yeah, hey, look, the the church is actually the logical
place.
And we get intimidated by theterms out there.
Oh, I'm I'm dealing with a youknow, my husband's a narcissist.
It's like, well, oh boy, I'mnot sure I know how to handle
that, you know.
It's just me and my you know,little Bible over here.
Or uh all these other labelsthat people kind of get stuck
(09:31):
with.
But I I think on on furtherthought, the church is the
logical place.
In in early in the book ofRomans, Paul says about the Jews
that they were entrusted withthe oracles of God.
And that's that's what thethat's what the church is.
Paul says when he spends timewith you know the Ephesian
church, he's like, I I did notshrink from declaring to you the
(09:52):
the what the whole council ofGod.
That's right.
And so, yeah, man, we we've gotsomething unique.
Well, what does normal actuallylook like?
We're the only ones that knowthat.
Right.
Because we have a fixed pointof reference.
That's that's God, that's theimage of God, and then it's the
image of God made flesh, it'sthe Lord Jesus Christ.
(10:14):
That's right.
That's what normal human beinglooks like.
And so the church is actuallythe logical place.
Jon (10:23):
And therefore, I think by conclusion, then uh every pastor
is a counselor.
Amen.
I guess the question is a goodone or not.
Um and that's where we kind ofthrow in the word competent,
right?
So um, but the pastor certainlycounsels through the declaring
the word, meeting with people,shepherding, caring.
(10:44):
And so it's very important toknow how to do that well, uh, at
least adequately.
Seth (10:50):
Amen.
No, hey, that's you know, Paulin Acts uh chapter twenty is
talking to the Ephesian eldersabout his ministry there, and he
says, uh in public and fromhouse to house.
So there's this publicproclamation of the word, you
know, you do it from the pulpitevery Sunday, and um, and then
there's also this uh thisone-to-one discipleship that's
(11:13):
going on um in smaller groups ina home.
Uh maybe you're meeting with aperson for coffee, and yeah, you
gotta be able to bring God'sword to bear on the the
day-to-day life issues.
Jon (11:24):
Do you think the ability to counsel well is a gift?
Seth (11:28):
Interesting question.
I think that the whole churchis called to do it.
Um, but there might be theremight be uh some that have a
more particular gift.
Sure.
You know, uh it's becausecounseling is teaching, and it's
you know, and so and there's athere's a teaching gift, you
(11:49):
know, that the the Bible isdirective.
So there are other there areforms of secular counseling that
aren't directive.
Like I'm just gonna put mylistening ears on, okay, you
know, I'm gonna zip my lips, andI'm gonna say, what is it that
you want?
What do you want out of life?
And and how are you workingagainst yourself?
And I'm gonna ask you thosekinds of questions, just let you
drive.
Well, the Bible's not that way.
The Bible tells us.
(12:10):
Um so yeah, so so you know,Christian counseling is gonna be
directive because it's gonna beout of scripture.
That's right.
And uh, and so yeah, there'sthere's gotta be a some
giftedness there.
But in uh in Hebrews 5, theauthor of Hebrews, whoever that
might be, he's he says, uh youguys should all be teachers by
now.
Now he's kind of talking to allbelievers.
(12:30):
I don't think he's talking inthe giftedness sense of
teaching, like there's ateaching gift in the New
Testament that's clear, but buthe's just talking, you guys
should be well versed enough inthe word to be able to help one
another.
Jon (12:42):
So maybe we it's safe to say like there's a there's kind
of a more or less like a minimumstandard of the ability to
counsel from the in the churchas you're discipled and growing.
But then there are those thatmight be um a bit more effective
or in in the way that they'reable to to connect, uh apply
(13:04):
God's word to to someone else.
So not all people arenecessarily equal on the playing
field here, but there is, likeyou said, the whole church is
called to counsel.
I think about it like when Paultells Timothy to do the work of
an evangelist.
He's not saying go find anevangelist.
They were kind of around, Ithink, during that time as they
were fading off as asupernatural office.
(13:26):
But you you just kind of seethat Timothy is to take up that
that role of proclaiming thegospel, sharing the gospel,
defending truth.
Uh we see that you know kind ofbeing worked out, I think, in
the church where you see, well,it's it's important that all the
members, in a sense, be able toshare God's word, talk with
(13:46):
people, help them.
Yeah, the church helping eachother, while there might be, you
know, a set few that are aboveand beyond.
Seth (13:56):
Yep.
Yes.
They're going to do that astheir main ministry, if you
will.
But all the all the saintsshould be you look at a verse
like Colossians 3 16, where letthe word of Christ dwell in you
richly.
And he's talking to allbelievers as you teach and
admonish one another.
Uh, that word admonish could betranslated counsel.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Mm-hmm.
Seth (14:15):
You know, so you've so there you've got a command to
all believers to kind of bedoing this.
You know, is everybody going tobe doing it formally as a
ministry?
No, I don't think so.
Um, but yeah, like you said,there should be a a baseline
where, yeah, all all members arehave that as a goal.
Is that I should be I should beusing God's word as I talk to,
(14:36):
you know, my friend who calls meand and tells me all her woes.
Jon (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Uh and when you have a churchthat's doing that, that's like a
pastor's dream as well, dude.
You know, like uh you know,equipping the saints for the
work of the ministry.
So so therefore, there'sprobably a a level where you
have either the pastor or somethat are trained so that they
(15:03):
are instructing and equippingwith you know practical tools,
ways in which uh the members areable to counsel.
Seth (15:11):
Yep.
Yep, exactly.
Jon (15:13):
So let's talk a little bit, and we we've been kind of
hovering around it, but just thetheological foundations for
biblical counseling.
You know, we're told of Godthat He is in Isaiah, Isaiah 6,
we're referring to the the childthat was is to be born, he's a
wonderful, wonderful counselor.
And so even they're just rootedin this is who God is.
Seth (15:35):
Yeah, amen.
Jon (15:36):
And as we are to reflect God's image, uh we too have been
given the capacity.
I mean, I don't see deerscounseling each other.
Animals don't counsel eachother.
This is strictly human.
Seth (15:48):
Yeah.
Jon (15:48):
And so one of the just the theological foundations is we
are reflecting the image of Godwhen we give counsel.
Seth (15:55):
Yeah, and what you know what, everybody's a counselor
too.
Just a matter of whether yougive like you said, all pastors
are counsel.
Well, hey, everybody's acounselor, you know.
Did your friend call you thisweek and and tell you about what
their husband did or you know,or what their wife did, you
know, and then what did you sayto them?
You know.
Um it's just a matter ofwhether you're a good counselor
(16:16):
or not.
Sure.
And yeah, and we and we have,like you said, we have the whole
counsel of God.
Um, our God is a communicatingGod, and we're told that this
this word of God, you know,foundational verse like 2
Timothy 3, you know, um 14 to17, there, where Paul's talking
(16:36):
to Timothy about the word ofGod.
You know, your grandmother andyour mother brought you up in
it, and so you're familiar withthe sacred writings, and he's
just talking about the OldTestament at this point.
And he says it's able to makeyou wise unto salvation through
faith in Christ Jesus.
And so, okay, number one greatwork of God's word there is that
it actually restores the soul,as as as Psalm 19 says.
(17:00):
It it it is able to make youwise unto salvation.
So salvation, great, great workof God's word.
Um, and then he goes on to sayto Timothy, and it's also able
to equip you for every goodwork.
So everything that you weremeant to be and you're not,
salvation.
Um, God's word.
And then everything that God'scalled you to do, and so the man
(17:24):
of God may be thoroughlyequipped, ready for every good
work, maybe mature, complete,you know, is the is the word
there.
Um everything that God's calledyou to do, God's word, you
know, yeah, is is is there forthat.
So so you might saysanctification, salvation,
sanctification, two great worksof God's word.
It's it's it's sufficient forthat.
Jon (17:44):
I think about Romans 15 4, where Paul talks about you know,
whatever was written in theformer days was written for our
instruction through enduranceand through hope, we we would or
through the scriptures we wouldhave endurance and then hope.
Uh I might have misquoted thata little bit, but it's close
enough.
Um he's talking about the theword at work in us that produces
(18:08):
godliness manifested out youknow through our lives and um
how the word works.
It doesn't even need to bestated, but when we think of our
textbook for counseling, ourour foundational book, where are
you going?
Seth (18:25):
Yeah, you're going to the Bible, right?
Jon (18:27):
That's right, amen.
We're we're rooting uh ourcounsel in God's word, and we're
sitting under it.
We don't sit above it.
You know, we we we submitourselves to the authority of
the word and trust that the wordworks as the spirit applies
truth to the believer.
Now, just uh uh uh what aboutcounseling an unbeliever?
Seth (18:48):
Yeah, great question.
A thought just kind of came tomy mind.
I could see you kind of gettingthere because the these things
are these truths are spirituallydiscerned, as Paul says it, you
know, in first Corinthians.
So yeah, what do you do there?
Uh my goodness, you evangelizethem.
All this trouble out there inthe world, it's meant to what
(19:08):
what does the Bible tell us?
It's meant to, it's meant to uhdraw us to God.
Um uh you know, you you senseyour need.
Well, what a great opportunitynow for me to share the gospel
with you.
And not in a way that's thatskips over or trivializes or
pushes aside your problems, butactually in a you know, is there
a way that I can share thegospel that that uh addresses
(19:31):
actually, you know what yourdeeper need is?
That's right, you know, and andwhen you know, and and I may or
may not be able to solve all ofwhatever that problem of life
is for you.
Maybe you've got cancer, youknow.
Right.
I I I can't fix that.
But you know, can can you cometo know God and and do what
(19:53):
pleases him and find the peaceand joy that comes from having
his spirit abide in you eventhrough all of life's trials,
you know, can we get you to thatplace?
Yeah.
Wow, amazing.
Jon (20:04):
Yeah.
We cannot take suffering away.
It's uh that's inevitable.
Uh and we're not even trying toease necessarily suffering.
I mean, we we would love to.
And if by God's grace, youknow, whatever, if it's a
physical thing.
But part of I think biblicalChristian counseling is that
we're able to help people sufferwell.
And because I need that word inmy own life too.
(20:27):
And this is where uh it'simportant to be on the giving
and receiving end.
It's uh counseling is is veryreciprocal.
Um, I think it should be atleast, um, hearing from others
as we give to others uh thelife-giving truth of God's word.
Yeah, counseling an unbelieveruh ultimately is an opportunity.
(20:48):
Yeah.
It's an opportunity to sitdown, especially if they want
it.
Someone wants to sit down withme and it's like, hey, I've got
all these problems.
You know, I'll address youryour felt need, but I'm I'm just
gonna connect and redirect toJesus.
But I want to do that in a waythat they're they're a person,
not a project.
Yeah.
You know, I'm not sure, I'm notjust trying to be this like I
(21:10):
do care about your problem, butoftentimes in that situation,
your perceived problem is notyour real deep down problem.
Sure.
It's a symptom.
Yeah, it's a some it's asymptom of you know needing to
be renewed and um to come toknow Christ.
So we did throw out this wordcompetence.
(21:31):
And and I like that wordbecause I think it gives us a
category, something we canaspire to in biblical
counseling, in helping people tofollow God, follow Jesus, uh
obey and apply the principles.
But what does competence looklike, say in a counseling
(21:51):
setting?
Seth (21:52):
Yeah, one word, Jesus.
That's great.
You know, he he never he neverdidn't know what to say, if you
don't mind all the negatives inthat sentence.
But uh I'm yeah, our God is thewonderful counsel.
We certainly don't want to bepoor counselors, um, and so
competence is a good goal.
And I think where that wordspecifically comes from, um Jay
(22:13):
Adams liked to use that word.
In fact, he wrote he wrote abook called Competent to Counsel
early on.
Um and and he he kind of pickedthat word up from Romans 15,
14, where he's he's talking tothe Roman believers and he says
he says that he's confident thatthey're able to instruct, I
think is the way the ESVtranslates it.
Um but it might also betranslated competent to counsel.
(22:36):
Some of these believers in Romehe hasn't met yet, right?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Mm-hmm.
Seth (22:46):
And well, I think it's because he's he's assured of
their resources, uh, theirresources in God's word and and
in the Holy Spirit who dwellswithin them, um, and in the
church that God's put them in.
I think those are the threegreat resources of of the
biblical counselor is God'sword, mm-hmm and the s the the
spirit, the counselor who dwellswithin them, and the church uh
(23:10):
that that he that he puts themin.
So that's kind of that's kindof where that concept comes
from, if you will.
You know, I you you think of averse like uh like like uh
Ephesians uh 14, where Paulsays, we don't want you to be
driven about by every wind ofhuman doctrine, you know.
Uh that's what not competentlooks like you know.
(23:32):
But the the next verse inEphesians 4, he says, we want
you to be uh grown up intoChrist, mature in Christ.
Um so like I said, in a word,Jesus.
It looks like Jesus.
Okay, so how so we're all we'reall as we minister that
speaking the truth in love toone another, you know, Ephesians
4.
As we minister to one another,we're growing up into Christ,
(23:54):
we're becoming uh we're becomingmore competent there, um,
increasing in the knowledge ofGod.
Jon (24:00):
I think what Paul says in Colossians 1, you know, him we
proclaim, admonishing andwarning everybody with all
wisdom that we might present youmature in Christ.
And it's like this is the goalof the minister, the goal of our
lives.
Seth (24:14):
Yeah, beautiful picture of counseling there.
Jon (24:16):
Yeah.
So, but nobody like maybesomeone's listening and
thinking, you know, I kind ofhave a heart towards counseling,
a desire towards it.
How can I increase mycompetency?
Because you know, nobody I Iwould say starts out like up
top, but you have to you have togrow.
I know you know, I've hadcounseling sessions where I've
(24:39):
come out of it where I wasgiving the counsel and I
thought, man, that was adisaster.
Uh I tried and I fumbled.
I remember studying um That'snever happened to me, by the
way.
Oh, good for you.
Studying Christian counselingfor my undergrad and um just
applying all these differentthings.
And you know, I took thiscourse on issues in you know,
(24:59):
sexuality, this marriage infamily, child counseling, and uh
then starting to apply some ofthose things, and I was like,
well, this is a little morechallenging, it can be at times.
Absolutely.
Uh so if someone's listeningand said, Hey, no, I have a
desire to to help people followJesus better, grow in their
sanctification, just be a an earand a source of counsel for
(25:22):
them.
Where would you point them to?
Yeah.
How do you get started in andgrowing?
I mean, certainly be faithfulto the local church, commit
commit to being in God's word,some of those basic things.
Amen.
Um, but any any other directionthat you might want to send
someone?
Seth (25:38):
Yeah, for sure.
And you know what?
Don't look don't overlook thosethings.
Like, my goodness, if if you'venever read through the whole
Bible before, you know, do it ina year.
Pick up one of those one yearplans and do it in a in a year.
And you know what?
Do that a couple years in arow, and you'll find like, whoa,
I have a better grasp ofscripture at this point.
You know, that thing that'sthat's going on in my own life,
(26:00):
or that thing that's going on inso-and-so's life, uh, you know
what, I have a better idea ofwhat to because if you open
God's word every day and you andyou f you work on proceeding
through the whole counsel ofGod, and you ask God, you know,
like like the the author ofPsalm 119 says, Open my eyes
that I might behold wonderfulthings in your law, if you're
(26:22):
doing that on a daily basis,well that's a prayer God
delights to answer.
And that's right.
Yeah, and you and you're goingto become more competent.
Jon (26:30):
So so we say foundationally saturate yourself in scripture.
Yeah, man.
Yep.
Being in the word regularly,um, it very much is like eating.
It I can't tell you what I hadfor dinner four weeks ago, but I
know that I ate.
Yeah.
And so in in many ways, this itthe constant practice of Bible
(26:52):
intake is is food for the soul.
To be daily in the word is toprevent from becoming
malnourished.
Yeah.
And it's a great practice.
And it's not a legalisticthing, it's a good thing.
Seth (27:04):
And I think the more the more you do that, um and then
you look at issues of day-to-daylife in the light of what you
read that morning, uh, the themore competent you're going to
become because it it you knowthere's all kinds of, you know,
marriage and divorce, abortion,you know, um all these issues
(27:27):
that are, you know, th that areon the public scene and just
just daily in the news or dailyin our lives.
Um they they're going to comeup.
And you know, the apostle Paulsays, find out what what pleases
the Lord.
So that's that's you devoteyourself in that way, uh, to
looking in the scripture andthen looking at life, and then
(27:48):
looking back at the scriptureand then looking at life.
Find out what pleases the Lord.
The author of Hebrews says uhuh solid food is for the mature.
That's right.
Those who have their powers ofdiscernment trained by constant
practice to discern good fromevil.
So, like, you're not gonna snapyour fingers and get there.
Right.
This is a day-to-day thingwhere you're keep looking into
(28:11):
the word and then go talk tosomebody about it, you know, and
and do that on a regular basis.
Practice, practice counseling.
Jon (28:18):
Is there is there a situation uh or scenario that
you can envision where someonecomes to you, they're they're
hungry to counsel, they're inGod's word, and you would say,
Hey, let me recommend thistraining for you, or um, you
know, so-and-so does this well,or besides the Bible, here's a I
mean you've mentioned JayAdams, um here's a go-to
(28:41):
resource just to kind of help asa uh as a complement to these
things.
And yeah, if someone's lookingfor you, you know, Pastor Seth,
where can I go to get better atthis?
Where would you send them?
Seth (28:52):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I know I dodged yourquestion, but I, you know, if
this is biblical counseling, wewe've got to talk about being in
the word.
But uh, but yeah, there aresome great resources.
Um uh one one book I wouldrecommend um is is uh
Instruments in the Redeemer'sHand uh by Paul Tripp.
And uh that's a great read.
(29:13):
You know, Paul Tripp's a greatauthor, he's he's easy to read,
but uh just uh a solid pictureum of what it looks like to grow
and change in the Christianlife.
And hey, let me tell you justpersonal testimony, the person
who has been impacted the mostby my biblical counseling
training is me.
(29:33):
Yeah.
And and and maybe the theperson who's gotten the most
fruit from it, you know, besidesthat, besides me, is my wife,
you know.
Jon (29:41):
Listen, I can I can riff on this um for a while.
I won't, but I remember as Iwas studying uh in my biblical
Christian counseling, uh ththose various courses on uh
child counseling and andmarriage marriage and family
therapy.
I think that was the name.
Um and I I s I'd been marriedfor three years when I was
(30:03):
taking these courses.
I remember I'd I'd be workingon my courses, and then I'd say,
hey, you know, I'm gonna go uhI'm gonna go try this on my
daughter, or just like try toconnect with her on these
things, and like I'd see likethe the application of it.
But most importantly, when Iwas taking my marriage courses.
Seth (30:22):
Oh, here's what I'm doing wrong.
Jon (30:24):
I actually said, Kate, do you want to watch these videos
with me?
Yeah.
And so we started watchingthese videos together, and it
was, yeah, it was very much likewe looked at each other and we
were like, we're sorry, like werepent.
Let's, and it was soeye-opening.
But yeah, the person whobenefited the most from studying
counseling is me.
(30:45):
Yeah.
And it and it set my marriagein a great trajectory.
Uh to this day, we still lookback and reference, you know,
when we were watching thosevideos and the things that we
learned.
And when we do premaritalcounseling now, much of that is
talked about and and shared withyou know newlyweds and things
of that nature, which is a it'sjust a blessing to be able to
(31:07):
do.
Um, so just a closing thoughthere.
How does, again, we'd saycompetent biblical counseling,
how does that affect the life ofthe church?
How does that affect the lifeof the pastor?
What does by by being trained,by thinking about this subject,
how does that help foster ahealthy church?
Seth (31:30):
Well, you cited earlier, you know, that picture from
Ephesians 4 where the uh the thepastors and teachers are given
to the church to do theministry, right?
They're the ministers.
Okay, that's not what it says.
That's not what it says.
Yeah.
It's to equip the saints forthe work of the ministry.
And so, you know, and I'm sureyou've had this experience where
(31:50):
it's you know, so and so comesup from your congregation and
they're like, Pastor, I justgotta bend your ear for a
minute, you know, about so andso.
I'm really concerned uh forthem and they've got this going
on in your life.
So I think you should really govisit them.
And don't you just want to turnthat person around and be like,
it, that's so funny, they cameto you, you know, and sort of
buried me to need kind of thing,right?
That's right, yeah.
(32:10):
And they they you know, theysort of buried their heart.
You know, you know, what whatone pastor uh Brad Bigney uh
says to his congregation iswouldn't you like to help a real
person with a real problemusing your Bible?
And man, that's a picture of ahealthy church right there.
Jon (32:29):
When we stop looking at the pastor as the quarterback who's
to like lead everybody down thefield, and we start to see that
we see the pastor a little bitmore in the role of like, for
lack of a better term, the coachwho is who is helping and
getting the players, the churchon the field to execute the
thing that's needed, right?
And so uh instead of everyonejust having to look over to him
(32:51):
to yes, he's the leader, yes,he's with his staff, his team of
elders.
Yeah, but I can only do somuch.
Seth (32:58):
You know, how many people could I actually meet?
Could I meet with everybody inthe church, you know, in a given
week and bigger churches?
Jon (33:04):
They have their dedicated counseling pastor.
But like there's there's notenough capacity for that.
And so for us to really equipthe saints for the work of the
ministry that we uh uh arecalled to do, that's almost
reproducing counselors.
Yeah, amen.
And and we do that throughvarious means teaching,
training, um, preaching.
(33:24):
When the members are when it'smember on member care, we're
functioning much more like a NewTestament church.
Seth (33:31):
Yeah, that's the the you know, the first Corinthians 12
picture.
The the body, you know, eacheach body part has a function,
and it's and if it's if it's notfunctioning, well then you're
deficient in some way.
So yeah, and you know, and uhthat's a that's a long slow
work.
That's one of the reasons why Iuh I got together with these
other churches and said, Hey,let's put on these trainings and
let's invite all our members toit, you know.
(33:51):
Yeah, that's great.
Uh and you know, and then youyou you're just regularly, all
right.
I'm gonna meet with I I couldprobably meet with three or so
people a week um and and stillhave my wits about me.
Sure.
And and be able to disciplethem and remember what it was
that we talked about last week.
But I'm gonna do that on aregular basis and see if I can't
(34:12):
reproduce disciplers.
Um we're making we're makingdisciples.
We should also be makingdisciplers.
And uh yeah, it's it's a longslow work, but I think that's
that's the way to a healthychurch.
Yeah, it's worthwhile.
Jon (34:24):
Yeah, that's that's fantastic.
Yeah.
Uh any other thoughts just oncounseling?
I mean, we've kind of just flewaround, talked about a few
things, just trying to raiseawareness to why maybe we
shouldn't just be so quick tooutsource counseling, but to
look within our churches, tolook at the members in our
churches, to really help us growin God's word and apply God's
truth.
(34:44):
But do you have any other kindof closing thoughts, maybe?
Seth (34:46):
Yeah, do it.
Do it.
I like I said earlier, I thinkwe're intimidated, and uh, you
know, you oh you might do moreharm than good.
Um and hey, that's certainlythat has happened.
That has happened.
Jon (35:00):
I I know that that's happened.
Seth (35:02):
But you know what?
Pray.
Uh seek the seek the Lord'shelp and and and minister his
word to one another.
Jon (35:09):
Make sure you care about the person you're counseling.
Sure.
That's a that's a good word.
Like you can, in an insensitiveway, bring God's word on a
hurting person and do damage.
Sure.
And so I think it's reallyimportant as we counsel to make
sure that our hearts arecompassionate and caring uh for
those individuals that arestruggling and that do need to
(35:29):
be kind of redirected andpointed in the way in which they
should go.
Seth (35:34):
Yeah.
Uh but I don't want people tobe discouraged or intimidated
from it.
That's good.
You know, you you you practice,that's how you get better.
And uh and yeah, with with aheart for the Lord and a heart
for people, like you said, careabout the person, uh, then the
Lord will will care for theresults.
That's great.
Jon (35:50):
So hey, thanks for the conversation.
Seth (35:52):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Jon (35:53):
Yeah, this is great.
I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You could reach out atquestions at pleasing
Godpodcast.org.
And remember firstThessalonians 4 3.
This is the will of God forsanctification.
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I had anawesome opportunity to sit down
with Pastor Seth Rambicure.
And we had a conversation aboutthe need for counseling in the
(00:23):
church, really competentChristian counseling, and
thinking about practical ways inwhich the whole congregation is
able to counsel one anotherthrough God's word.
And so I hope as you listen tothis episode, it's encouraging
to you, helps you to thinkcarefully about counseling, the
role as a congregation member, amember of a church, and the
(00:46):
role that you play incounseling.
Well, Seth, thanks for joiningme on the podcast today.
It's exciting to be able to sitdown with you and talk on this
subject of counseling in thechurch.
So uh again, thanks forjoining.
(01:07):
Want to just kind of givelisteners uh just a quick kind
of rundown on uh who you are andwhat you're doing.
You're a pastor.
Seth (01:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, thanks for havingme.
Yeah, this is fun.
Um, yep, I'm Seth Rambic here.
I'm uh one of the pastors atExeter Chapel, um, which is uh
actually a church plant ofQuidnesset um back in the
eighties.
Was it the eighties?
Yes, so we have thatconnection.
Yeah, mid mid eighties.
Um the the chapel itself um inExeter was built in uh in you
(01:40):
know 1990, 91, something likethat.
Jon (01:42):
So okay.
Seth (01:43):
Yeah, but I haven't been pastor for that long.
I was hired in 2018, so um Igrew up there.
And uh and yeah.
Yep.
Uh what else would you like toknow?
Jon (01:55):
I know you're passionate about counseling.
And it's something there'swe'll talk uh I think a little
later on about maybe some of thethings that you're working on
and some of the projects by wayof uh counseling network.
But uh yeah, I wanted to justbring you on because I think
this is an important subject.
Figured, you know, you'd be theguy to you know shed some light
on this, talk about it, andjust kind of raise awareness of
(02:17):
the need and why counseling inthe church is important.
That's that's really the youknow kind of the purpose here.
Thinking about this idea of uhcompetent Christian counseling,
right?
There, I mean, there'scounseling, there's Christian
counseling, and then there'scompetent Christian counseling.
Yeah.
Seth (02:35):
All those words are important.
Jon (02:36):
Yeah, right.
I mean, we could sit and unpackeach one of them uh if we
wanted to, but uh let's talkjust briefly about the need.
Do you think and see that thereis a need for counseling in the
church?
Seth (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, uh anecdotally, I thinkwe could all say, oh, you know,
I know someone that has amental health struggle, if you
will.
There's a mental health crisisgoing on.
Or, you know, or I know amarried couple, you know, at our
church that, you know, justcan't get along.
Um and so I think we probablyall, you know, can sort of
(03:12):
sense, you know, there's a feltneed for counseling.
Um people, you know, whetherwhether they go to the church
for it or not, um, people go forcounseling a lot these days.
Um on the theological sidethough, I think it's objectively
necessary that uh we needcounsel.
(03:34):
Uh when he was created, Adamneeded counsel.
Um we don't know who we arewithout God's revelation.
So, you know, God and God'sGod's counseling Adam in the
garden before the fall and uhand telling him who he is and
how he's related to Eve and youknow, all of those things.
Um he's created in God's imageto represent and reflect him.
(03:57):
Um you know, and we don't wedon't have that without without
God's counsel, without withoutrevelation.
So counseling objectively is aneed.
And then, you know, after thefall, even much more so.
Jon (04:11):
Oh yeah, for sure for sure, absolutely.
So yeah, as you were saying,like after the fall, of course,
like you we see a great need forI mean, there's there's human
sinfulness, and as a result ofthat, there's gonna be a need
for counseling.
Exactly.
And helping to understand.
I love that you you know youroot counseling in Genesis one,
(04:32):
Genesis one and two.
Um, because truly, I mean,understanding who we are in
light of who God is and hisrevelation of as he counseled
Adam, yeah, I think that'sthat's so foundational to
starting there.
I mean, maybe all the answersare in Genesis.
Seth (04:48):
Yeah.
For sure.
Uh, but you know, to to go goto the New Testament, you look
at Romans 1 and Paul'sdescription of the problem, um,
and describing the fall of man,where man rejects the knowledge
of God, and uh, and then his hismind, his understanding is
darkened.
Well, there you have the needfor counseling.
(05:09):
And so that's a that's a stepback from, oh, I know this
couple that needs counseling, orthis other person, or what no,
we all need counsel.
Jon (05:16):
And we and we and we all don't need counsel just when
things are bad either, right?
Right.
There's there's somepreventative care that's done by
counseling as well.
So I we definitely want toclear the the stigma that like
if you're getting counseling,that means there's something
completely shipwreck with you.
That's not always the case.
And I and I mean sometimes itis, and sometimes there's need
(05:39):
of crisis counseling.
And um but as kind of pastorstoo, you know, and I think about
the need for counseling in thechurch, I think there's a great
need in in that there's atension between what the church
can do and then sometimes what'soutsourced by way of
counseling.
And sometimes I I think one ofthe issues is either everything
(06:03):
gets tried to get taken care ofin the church or everything gets
outsourced.
We'll leave that to theprofessionals kind of attitude.
And I do think there is a placefor have a you know, a bit more
credentialed and professionalin Christian counseling that
maybe lay people can't do.
Um yeah, I don't know if youwant to just talk a little bit
about that, maybe in your ownexperience.
(06:24):
Do you see, have you seen wherethere's been a lot of
outsourcing or try to handle alot of things internally?
Yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
Seth (06:32):
Well, no, I think that's a fact.
Um and and uh the the modernmovement of of biblical
counseling, if you will, youknow, started back late 60s,
early 70s with with a guy namedJay Adams, you know, and a
couple of colleagues who sawthat basically the church had
abdicated its role on oncounseling.
Um and so if a if a person isgoing to receive talk therapy,
(06:57):
they don't go to the church toget it.
And that sort of started withthe whole professionalism
movement earlier in the centurywhere where you know if you're
gonna do somethingprofessionally, well then a
profession gets together andthere's a board that certifies
them, and you know, whetheryou're a doctor or or you're
some kind of technician, nowHVAC technicians, right?
(07:17):
You you get certified to dothat, right?
You don't just go and work onyour air conditioning, you know.
And so that's that's what's youknow, quote unquote normal now.
And so the world doesn't lookat the church as a place where
you know you could getprofessional help.
Um, but I think God's wordtells a little bit of a
different story.
And you know, are there medicalissues?
(07:38):
Absolutely.
You know, are are we a body anda soul?
Absolutely.
And so there's there's thingsthat you need uh that that you
need counsel, which you know,which by nature is talking.
That's that's that's talktherapy.
Um but then there's there'sthings where you might need
medicine, and then it's it'sdrawing that line.
(07:59):
There a lot there's a lot ofdifferent opinions on where that
line is exactly, right?
Jon (08:03):
And it's it's not so black and white once you get there.
Right.
Um because the church is a tobe a place of of hope, of
healing, of restoration.
I mean, we we have the greateststory that changes lives, like
we've seen it so many times withthe gospel that and the
transforming power of the HolySpirit in the life of a
(08:26):
believer.
And so, yeah, we think likewe've got that, but then we need
a little bit more and a littlebit more of this and that.
And I think at times we justneed to, I don't want to
oversimplify, but there's acentrality of the gospel in the
life of the believer that makesa difference.
Sure.
But marriage on the rocks,difficulty, you know, adjusting
(08:48):
to transitions in life.
There are many places where wecan lean into the church uh and
find help there through counsel.
Seth (08:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Jon (08:59):
And so maybe there's a counseling gap in the church,
and so one of the things we wantto do is kind of a recovery of
churches as centers for counsel,right?
Seth (09:10):
Yeah, hey, look, the the church is actually the logical
place.
And we get intimidated by theterms out there.
Oh, I'm I'm dealing with a youknow, my husband's a narcissist.
It's like, well, oh boy, I'mnot sure I know how to handle
that, you know.
It's just me and my you know,little Bible over here.
Or uh all these other labelsthat people kind of get stuck
(09:31):
with.
But I I think on on furtherthought, the church is the
logical place.
In in early in the book ofRomans, Paul says about the Jews
that they were entrusted withthe oracles of God.
And that's that's what thethat's what the church is.
Paul says when he spends timewith you know the Ephesian
church, he's like, I I did notshrink from declaring to you the
(09:52):
the what the whole council ofGod.
That's right.
And so, yeah, man, we we've gotsomething unique.
Well, what does normal actuallylook like?
We're the only ones that knowthat.
Right.
Because we have a fixed pointof reference.
That's that's God, that's theimage of God, and then it's the
image of God made flesh, it'sthe Lord Jesus Christ.
(10:14):
That's right.
That's what normal human beinglooks like.
And so the church is actuallythe logical place.
Jon (10:23):
And therefore, I think by conclusion, then uh every pastor
is a counselor.
Amen.
I guess the question is a goodone or not.
Um and that's where we kind ofthrow in the word competent,
right?
So um, but the pastor certainlycounsels through the declaring
the word, meeting with people,shepherding, caring.
(10:44):
And so it's very important toknow how to do that well, uh, at
least adequately.
Seth (10:50):
Amen.
No, hey, that's you know, Paulin Acts uh chapter twenty is
talking to the Ephesian eldersabout his ministry there, and he
says, uh in public and fromhouse to house.
So there's this publicproclamation of the word, you
know, you do it from the pulpitevery Sunday, and um, and then
there's also this uh thisone-to-one discipleship that's
(11:13):
going on um in smaller groups ina home.
Uh maybe you're meeting with aperson for coffee, and yeah, you
gotta be able to bring God'sword to bear on the the
day-to-day life issues.
Jon (11:24):
Do you think the ability to counsel well is a gift?
Seth (11:28):
Interesting question.
I think that the whole churchis called to do it.
Um, but there might be theremight be uh some that have a
more particular gift.
Sure.
You know, uh it's becausecounseling is teaching, and it's
you know, and so and there's athere's a teaching gift, you
(11:49):
know, that the the Bible isdirective.
So there are other there areforms of secular counseling that
aren't directive.
Like I'm just gonna put mylistening ears on, okay, you
know, I'm gonna zip my lips, andI'm gonna say, what is it that
you want?
What do you want out of life?
And and how are you workingagainst yourself?
And I'm gonna ask you thosekinds of questions, just let you
drive.
Well, the Bible's not that way.
The Bible tells us.
(12:10):
Um so yeah, so so you know,Christian counseling is gonna be
directive because it's gonna beout of scripture.
That's right.
And uh, and so yeah, there'sthere's gotta be a some
giftedness there.
But in uh in Hebrews 5, theauthor of Hebrews, whoever that
might be, he's he says, uh youguys should all be teachers by
now.
Now he's kind of talking to allbelievers.
(12:30):
I don't think he's talking inthe giftedness sense of
teaching, like there's ateaching gift in the New
Testament that's clear, but buthe's just talking, you guys
should be well versed enough inthe word to be able to help one
another.
Jon (12:42):
So maybe we it's safe to say like there's a there's kind
of a more or less like a minimumstandard of the ability to
counsel from the in the churchas you're discipled and growing.
But then there are those thatmight be um a bit more effective
or in in the way that they'reable to to connect, uh apply
(13:04):
God's word to to someone else.
So not all people arenecessarily equal on the playing
field here, but there is, likeyou said, the whole church is
called to counsel.
I think about it like when Paultells Timothy to do the work of
an evangelist.
He's not saying go find anevangelist.
They were kind of around, Ithink, during that time as they
were fading off as asupernatural office.
(13:26):
But you you just kind of seethat Timothy is to take up that
that role of proclaiming thegospel, sharing the gospel,
defending truth.
Uh we see that you know kind ofbeing worked out, I think, in
the church where you see, well,it's it's important that all the
members, in a sense, be able toshare God's word, talk with
(13:46):
people, help them.
Yeah, the church helping eachother, while there might be, you
know, a set few that are aboveand beyond.
Seth (13:56):
Yep.
Yes.
They're going to do that astheir main ministry, if you
will.
But all the all the saintsshould be you look at a verse
like Colossians 3 16, where letthe word of Christ dwell in you
richly.
And he's talking to allbelievers as you teach and
admonish one another.
Uh, that word admonish could betranslated counsel.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Mm-hmm.
Seth (14:15):
You know, so you've so there you've got a command to
all believers to kind of bedoing this.
You know, is everybody going tobe doing it formally as a
ministry?
No, I don't think so.
Um, but yeah, like you said,there should be a a baseline
where, yeah, all all members arehave that as a goal.
Is that I should be I should beusing God's word as I talk to,
(14:36):
you know, my friend who calls meand and tells me all her woes.
Jon (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Uh and when you have a churchthat's doing that, that's like a
pastor's dream as well, dude.
You know, like uh you know,equipping the saints for the
work of the ministry.
So so therefore, there'sprobably a a level where you
have either the pastor or somethat are trained so that they
(15:03):
are instructing and equippingwith you know practical tools,
ways in which uh the members areable to counsel.
Seth (15:11):
Yep.
Yep, exactly.
Jon (15:13):
So let's talk a little bit, and we we've been kind of
hovering around it, but just thetheological foundations for
biblical counseling.
You know, we're told of Godthat He is in Isaiah, Isaiah 6,
we're referring to the the childthat was is to be born, he's a
wonderful, wonderful counselor.
And so even they're just rootedin this is who God is.
Seth (15:35):
Yeah, amen.
Jon (15:36):
And as we are to reflect God's image, uh we too have been
given the capacity.
I mean, I don't see deerscounseling each other.
Animals don't counsel eachother.
This is strictly human.
Seth (15:48):
Yeah.
Jon (15:48):
And so one of the just the theological foundations is we
are reflecting the image of Godwhen we give counsel.
Seth (15:55):
Yeah, and what you know what, everybody's a counselor
too.
Just a matter of whether yougive like you said, all pastors
are counsel.
Well, hey, everybody's acounselor, you know.
Did your friend call you thisweek and and tell you about what
their husband did or you know,or what their wife did, you
know, and then what did you sayto them?
You know.
Um it's just a matter ofwhether you're a good counselor
(16:16):
or not.
Sure.
And yeah, and we and we have,like you said, we have the whole
counsel of God.
Um, our God is a communicatingGod, and we're told that this
this word of God, you know,foundational verse like 2
Timothy 3, you know, um 14 to17, there, where Paul's talking
(16:36):
to Timothy about the word ofGod.
You know, your grandmother andyour mother brought you up in
it, and so you're familiar withthe sacred writings, and he's
just talking about the OldTestament at this point.
And he says it's able to makeyou wise unto salvation through
faith in Christ Jesus.
And so, okay, number one greatwork of God's word there is that
it actually restores the soul,as as as Psalm 19 says.
(17:00):
It it it is able to make youwise unto salvation.
So salvation, great, great workof God's word.
Um, and then he goes on to sayto Timothy, and it's also able
to equip you for every goodwork.
So everything that you weremeant to be and you're not,
salvation.
Um, God's word.
And then everything that God'scalled you to do, and so the man
(17:24):
of God may be thoroughlyequipped, ready for every good
work, maybe mature, complete,you know, is the is the word
there.
Um everything that God's calledyou to do, God's word, you
know, yeah, is is is there forthat.
So so you might saysanctification, salvation,
sanctification, two great worksof God's word.
It's it's it's sufficient forthat.
Jon (17:44):
I think about Romans 15 4, where Paul talks about you know,
whatever was written in theformer days was written for our
instruction through enduranceand through hope, we we would or
through the scriptures we wouldhave endurance and then hope.
Uh I might have misquoted thata little bit, but it's close
enough.
Um he's talking about the theword at work in us that produces
(18:08):
godliness manifested out youknow through our lives and um
how the word works.
It doesn't even need to bestated, but when we think of our
textbook for counseling, ourour foundational book, where are
you going?
Seth (18:25):
Yeah, you're going to the Bible, right?
Jon (18:27):
That's right, amen.
We're we're rooting uh ourcounsel in God's word, and we're
sitting under it.
We don't sit above it.
You know, we we we submitourselves to the authority of
the word and trust that the wordworks as the spirit applies
truth to the believer.
Now, just uh uh uh what aboutcounseling an unbeliever?
Seth (18:48):
Yeah, great question.
A thought just kind of came tomy mind.
I could see you kind of gettingthere because the these things
are these truths are spirituallydiscerned, as Paul says it, you
know, in first Corinthians.
So yeah, what do you do there?
Uh my goodness, you evangelizethem.
All this trouble out there inthe world, it's meant to what
(19:08):
what does the Bible tell us?
It's meant to, it's meant to uhdraw us to God.
Um uh you know, you you senseyour need.
Well, what a great opportunitynow for me to share the gospel
with you.
And not in a way that's thatskips over or trivializes or
pushes aside your problems, butactually in a you know, is there
a way that I can share thegospel that that uh addresses
(19:31):
actually, you know what yourdeeper need is?
That's right, you know, and andwhen you know, and and I may or
may not be able to solve all ofwhatever that problem of life
is for you.
Maybe you've got cancer, youknow.
Right.
I I I can't fix that.
But you know, can can you cometo know God and and do what
(19:53):
pleases him and find the peaceand joy that comes from having
his spirit abide in you eventhrough all of life's trials,
you know, can we get you to thatplace?
Yeah.
Wow, amazing.
Jon (20:04):
Yeah.
We cannot take suffering away.
It's uh that's inevitable.
Uh and we're not even trying toease necessarily suffering.
I mean, we we would love to.
And if by God's grace, youknow, whatever, if it's a
physical thing.
But part of I think biblicalChristian counseling is that
we're able to help people sufferwell.
And because I need that word inmy own life too.
(20:27):
And this is where uh it'simportant to be on the giving
and receiving end.
It's uh counseling is is veryreciprocal.
Um, I think it should be atleast, um, hearing from others
as we give to others uh thelife-giving truth of God's word.
Yeah, counseling an unbelieveruh ultimately is an opportunity.
(20:48):
Yeah.
It's an opportunity to sitdown, especially if they want
it.
Someone wants to sit down withme and it's like, hey, I've got
all these problems.
You know, I'll address youryour felt need, but I'm I'm just
gonna connect and redirect toJesus.
But I want to do that in a waythat they're they're a person,
not a project.
Yeah.
You know, I'm not sure, I'm notjust trying to be this like I
(21:10):
do care about your problem, butoftentimes in that situation,
your perceived problem is notyour real deep down problem.
Sure.
It's a symptom.
Yeah, it's a some it's asymptom of you know needing to
be renewed and um to come toknow Christ.
So we did throw out this wordcompetence.
(21:31):
And and I like that wordbecause I think it gives us a
category, something we canaspire to in biblical
counseling, in helping people tofollow God, follow Jesus, uh
obey and apply the principles.
But what does competence looklike, say in a counseling
(21:51):
setting?
Seth (21:52):
Yeah, one word, Jesus.
That's great.
You know, he he never he neverdidn't know what to say, if you
don't mind all the negatives inthat sentence.
But uh I'm yeah, our God is thewonderful counsel.
We certainly don't want to bepoor counselors, um, and so
competence is a good goal.
And I think where that wordspecifically comes from, um Jay
(22:13):
Adams liked to use that word.
In fact, he wrote he wrote abook called Competent to Counsel
early on.
Um and and he he kind of pickedthat word up from Romans 15,
14, where he's he's talking tothe Roman believers and he says
he says that he's confident thatthey're able to instruct, I
think is the way the ESVtranslates it.
Um but it might also betranslated competent to counsel.
(22:36):
Some of these believers in Romehe hasn't met yet, right?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Mm-hmm.
Seth (22:46):
And well, I think it's because he's he's assured of
their resources, uh, theirresources in God's word and and
in the Holy Spirit who dwellswithin them, um, and in the
church that God's put them in.
I think those are the threegreat resources of of the
biblical counselor is God'sword, mm-hmm and the s the the
spirit, the counselor who dwellswithin them, and the church uh
(23:10):
that that he that he puts themin.
So that's kind of that's kindof where that concept comes
from, if you will.
You know, I you you think of averse like uh like like uh
Ephesians uh 14, where Paulsays, we don't want you to be
driven about by every wind ofhuman doctrine, you know.
Uh that's what not competentlooks like you know.
(23:32):
But the the next verse inEphesians 4, he says, we want
you to be uh grown up intoChrist, mature in Christ.
Um so like I said, in a word,Jesus.
It looks like Jesus.
Okay, so how so we're all we'reall as we minister that
speaking the truth in love toone another, you know, Ephesians
4.
As we minister to one another,we're growing up into Christ,
(23:54):
we're becoming uh we're becomingmore competent there, um,
increasing in the knowledge ofGod.
Jon (24:00):
I think what Paul says in Colossians 1, you know, him we
proclaim, admonishing andwarning everybody with all
wisdom that we might present youmature in Christ.
And it's like this is the goalof the minister, the goal of our
lives.
Seth (24:14):
Yeah, beautiful picture of counseling there.
Jon (24:16):
Yeah.
So, but nobody like maybesomeone's listening and
thinking, you know, I kind ofhave a heart towards counseling,
a desire towards it.
How can I increase mycompetency?
Because you know, nobody I Iwould say starts out like up
top, but you have to you have togrow.
I know you know, I've hadcounseling sessions where I've
(24:39):
come out of it where I wasgiving the counsel and I
thought, man, that was adisaster.
Uh I tried and I fumbled.
I remember studying um That'snever happened to me, by the
way.
Oh, good for you.
Studying Christian counselingfor my undergrad and um just
applying all these differentthings.
And you know, I took thiscourse on issues in you know,
(24:59):
sexuality, this marriage infamily, child counseling, and uh
then starting to apply some ofthose things, and I was like,
well, this is a little morechallenging, it can be at times.
Absolutely.
Uh so if someone's listeningand said, Hey, no, I have a
desire to to help people followJesus better, grow in their
sanctification, just be a an earand a source of counsel for
(25:22):
them.
Where would you point them to?
Yeah.
How do you get started in andgrowing?
I mean, certainly be faithfulto the local church, commit
commit to being in God's word,some of those basic things.
Amen.
Um, but any any other directionthat you might want to send
someone?
Seth (25:38):
Yeah, for sure.
And you know what?
Don't look don't overlook thosethings.
Like, my goodness, if if you'venever read through the whole
Bible before, you know, do it ina year.
Pick up one of those one yearplans and do it in a in a year.
And you know what?
Do that a couple years in arow, and you'll find like, whoa,
I have a better grasp ofscripture at this point.
You know, that thing that'sthat's going on in my own life,
(26:00):
or that thing that's going on inso-and-so's life, uh, you know
what, I have a better idea ofwhat to because if you open
God's word every day and you andyou f you work on proceeding
through the whole counsel ofGod, and you ask God, you know,
like like the the author ofPsalm 119 says, Open my eyes
that I might behold wonderfulthings in your law, if you're
(26:22):
doing that on a daily basis,well that's a prayer God
delights to answer.
And that's right.
Yeah, and you and you're goingto become more competent.
Jon (26:30):
So so we say foundationally saturate yourself in scripture.
Yeah, man.
Yep.
Being in the word regularly,um, it very much is like eating.
It I can't tell you what I hadfor dinner four weeks ago, but I
know that I ate.
Yeah.
And so in in many ways, this itthe constant practice of Bible
(26:52):
intake is is food for the soul.
To be daily in the word is toprevent from becoming
malnourished.
Yeah.
And it's a great practice.
And it's not a legalisticthing, it's a good thing.
Seth (27:04):
And I think the more the more you do that, um and then
you look at issues of day-to-daylife in the light of what you
read that morning, uh, the themore competent you're going to
become because it it you knowthere's all kinds of, you know,
marriage and divorce, abortion,you know, um all these issues
(27:27):
that are, you know, th that areon the public scene and just
just daily in the news or dailyin our lives.
Um they they're going to comeup.
And you know, the apostle Paulsays, find out what what pleases
the Lord.
So that's that's you devoteyourself in that way, uh, to
looking in the scripture andthen looking at life, and then
(27:48):
looking back at the scriptureand then looking at life.
Find out what pleases the Lord.
The author of Hebrews says uhuh solid food is for the mature.
That's right.
Those who have their powers ofdiscernment trained by constant
practice to discern good fromevil.
So, like, you're not gonna snapyour fingers and get there.
Right.
This is a day-to-day thingwhere you're keep looking into
(28:11):
the word and then go talk tosomebody about it, you know, and
and do that on a regular basis.
Practice, practice counseling.
Jon (28:18):
Is there is there a situation uh or scenario that
you can envision where someonecomes to you, they're they're
hungry to counsel, they're inGod's word, and you would say,
Hey, let me recommend thistraining for you, or um, you
know, so-and-so does this well,or besides the Bible, here's a I
mean you've mentioned JayAdams, um here's a go-to
(28:41):
resource just to kind of help asa uh as a complement to these
things.
And yeah, if someone's lookingfor you, you know, Pastor Seth,
where can I go to get better atthis?
Where would you send them?
Seth (28:52):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I know I dodged yourquestion, but I, you know, if
this is biblical counseling, wewe've got to talk about being in
the word.
But uh, but yeah, there aresome great resources.
Um uh one one book I wouldrecommend um is is uh
Instruments in the Redeemer'sHand uh by Paul Tripp.
And uh that's a great read.
(29:13):
You know, Paul Tripp's a greatauthor, he's he's easy to read,
but uh just uh a solid pictureum of what it looks like to grow
and change in the Christianlife.
And hey, let me tell you justpersonal testimony, the person
who has been impacted the mostby my biblical counseling
training is me.
(29:33):
Yeah.
And and and maybe the theperson who's gotten the most
fruit from it, you know, besidesthat, besides me, is my wife,
you know.
Jon (29:41):
Listen, I can I can riff on this um for a while.
I won't, but I remember as Iwas studying uh in my biblical
Christian counseling, uh ththose various courses on uh
child counseling and andmarriage marriage and family
therapy.
I think that was the name.
Um and I I s I'd been marriedfor three years when I was
(30:03):
taking these courses.
I remember I'd I'd be workingon my courses, and then I'd say,
hey, you know, I'm gonna go uhI'm gonna go try this on my
daughter, or just like try toconnect with her on these
things, and like I'd see likethe the application of it.
But most importantly, when Iwas taking my marriage courses.
Seth (30:22):
Oh, here's what I'm doing wrong.
Jon (30:24):
I actually said, Kate, do you want to watch these videos
with me?
Yeah.
And so we started watchingthese videos together, and it
was, yeah, it was very much likewe looked at each other and we
were like, we're sorry, like werepent.
Let's, and it was soeye-opening.
But yeah, the person whobenefited the most from studying
counseling is me.
(30:45):
Yeah.
And it and it set my marriagein a great trajectory.
Uh to this day, we still lookback and reference, you know,
when we were watching thosevideos and the things that we
learned.
And when we do premaritalcounseling now, much of that is
talked about and and shared withyou know newlyweds and things
of that nature, which is a it'sjust a blessing to be able to
(31:07):
do.
Um, so just a closing thoughthere.
How does, again, we'd saycompetent biblical counseling,
how does that affect the life ofthe church?
How does that affect the lifeof the pastor?
What does by by being trained,by thinking about this subject,
how does that help foster ahealthy church?
Seth (31:30):
Well, you cited earlier, you know, that picture from
Ephesians 4 where the uh the thepastors and teachers are given
to the church to do theministry, right?
They're the ministers.
Okay, that's not what it says.
That's not what it says.
Yeah.
It's to equip the saints forthe work of the ministry.
And so, you know, and I'm sureyou've had this experience where
(31:50):
it's you know, so and so comesup from your congregation and
they're like, Pastor, I justgotta bend your ear for a
minute, you know, about so andso.
I'm really concerned uh forthem and they've got this going
on in your life.
So I think you should really govisit them.
And don't you just want to turnthat person around and be like,
it, that's so funny, they cameto you, you know, and sort of
buried me to need kind of thing,right?
That's right, yeah.
(32:10):
And they they you know, theysort of buried their heart.
You know, you know, what whatone pastor uh Brad Bigney uh
says to his congregation iswouldn't you like to help a real
person with a real problemusing your Bible?
And man, that's a picture of ahealthy church right there.
Jon (32:29):
When we stop looking at the pastor as the quarterback who's
to like lead everybody down thefield, and we start to see that
we see the pastor a little bitmore in the role of like, for
lack of a better term, the coachwho is who is helping and
getting the players, the churchon the field to execute the
thing that's needed, right?
And so uh instead of everyonejust having to look over to him
(32:51):
to yes, he's the leader, yes,he's with his staff, his team of
elders.
Yeah, but I can only do somuch.
Seth (32:58):
You know, how many people could I actually meet?
Could I meet with everybody inthe church, you know, in a given
week and bigger churches?
Jon (33:04):
They have their dedicated counseling pastor.
But like there's there's notenough capacity for that.
And so for us to really equipthe saints for the work of the
ministry that we uh uh arecalled to do, that's almost
reproducing counselors.
Yeah, amen.
And and we do that throughvarious means teaching,
training, um, preaching.
(33:24):
When the members are when it'smember on member care, we're
functioning much more like a NewTestament church.
Seth (33:31):
Yeah, that's the the you know, the first Corinthians 12
picture.
The the body, you know, eacheach body part has a function,
and it's and if it's if it's notfunctioning, well then you're
deficient in some way.
So yeah, and you know, and uhthat's a that's a long slow
work.
That's one of the reasons why Iuh I got together with these
other churches and said, Hey,let's put on these trainings and
let's invite all our members toit, you know.
(33:51):
Yeah, that's great.
Uh and you know, and then youyou you're just regularly, all
right.
I'm gonna meet with I I couldprobably meet with three or so
people a week um and and stillhave my wits about me.
Sure.
And and be able to disciplethem and remember what it was
that we talked about last week.
But I'm gonna do that on aregular basis and see if I can't
(34:12):
reproduce disciplers.
Um we're making we're makingdisciples.
We should also be makingdisciplers.
And uh yeah, it's it's a longslow work, but I think that's
that's the way to a healthychurch.
Yeah, it's worthwhile.
Jon (34:24):
Yeah, that's that's fantastic.
Yeah.
Uh any other thoughts just oncounseling?
I mean, we've kind of just flewaround, talked about a few
things, just trying to raiseawareness to why maybe we
shouldn't just be so quick tooutsource counseling, but to
look within our churches, tolook at the members in our
churches, to really help us growin God's word and apply God's
truth.
(34:44):
But do you have any other kindof closing thoughts, maybe?
Seth (34:46):
Yeah, do it.
Do it.
I like I said earlier, I thinkwe're intimidated, and uh, you
know, you oh you might do moreharm than good.
Um and hey, that's certainlythat has happened.
That has happened.
Jon (35:00):
I I know that that's happened.
Seth (35:02):
But you know what?
Pray.
Uh seek the seek the Lord'shelp and and and minister his
word to one another.
Jon (35:09):
Make sure you care about the person you're counseling.
Sure.
That's a that's a good word.
Like you can, in an insensitiveway, bring God's word on a
hurting person and do damage.
Sure.
And so I think it's reallyimportant as we counsel to make
sure that our hearts arecompassionate and caring uh for
those individuals that arestruggling and that do need to
(35:29):
be kind of redirected andpointed in the way in which they
should go.
Seth (35:34):
Yeah.
Uh but I don't want people tobe discouraged or intimidated
from it.
That's good.
You know, you you you practice,that's how you get better.
And uh and yeah, with with aheart for the Lord and a heart
for people, like you said, careabout the person, uh, then the
Lord will will care for theresults.
That's great.
Jon (35:50):
So hey, thanks for the conversation.
Seth (35:52):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Jon (35:53):
Yeah, this is great.
I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You could reach out atquestions at pleasing
Godpodcast.org.
And remember firstThessalonians 4 3.
This is the will of God forsanctification.
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