November 4, 2025 • 33 mins
Ever wonder why so many sincere believers still feel unmoored—attending services, sampling sermons, but never truly belonging? We explore how Scripture paints a richer, sturdier vision of the local church and why being counted and known is essential to a healthy Christian life. With Pastor Jim at the table, we walk through Acts 2’s immersive community, where teaching, prayer, generosity, and the Lord’s Supper form a shared life that assumes clear commitment. We look at Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 to show how one body with many members actually functions, honoring both visible and hidden gifts. And we turn to Hebrews 13:17 to explain why shepherds must know their flock and why meaningful accountability only works when people commit to a real congregation.
From there, we get practical. We highlight four positives that make membership compelling: belonging that endures conflict and builds trust, accountability that cares rather than surveils, ministry that helps you discover and deploy your gifts, and mission that links your life to the Great Commission through a specific church family. We share personal stories about planting roots, resisting church hopping, and finding joy in co‑laboring for the gospel. You’ll hear why busyness is not the same as growth, how leaders can create healthy on‑ramps for service, and why settling into a church helps you flourish without burning out.
This conversation aims to help you love Christ’s bride as he does, embracing the ordinary means God uses to make extraordinary disciples. If you’re wrestling with membership, seeking a place to blossom, or simply needing fresh courage to stay and serve, this one’s for you. If it helps, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a review so more people can find the show. Have a question about church membership? Email questions at pleasinggodpodcast.org.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon (00:00):
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I hadanother great opportunity to sit
down with Pastor Jim, and weboth got to talk about a subject
that is meaningful to us,important in our lives, not just
(00:20):
as pastors, but as Christians,and that's church membership,
belonging in the local church.
We talk through biblicalrationale for why church
membership is important.
What does the scripture sayabout it?
And then how we can kind ofpractically live that out with
the benefits of churchmembership.
So I hope as you listen, youare encouraged, helps you to
(00:42):
again love your church, givethanks for your church, and if
you're not a church member, tothink carefully about joining
and belonging to whatever localassembly you are a part of.
And I hope you are encouragedfrom this episode.
Well, Dad, welcome back.
(01:04):
It's good to have you again.
Jim (01:06):
Well, thank you, Jonathan.
It's uh pleasure to be with youagain.
Jon (01:08):
All right.
Well, we're gonna talk about Ithink a subject that we're both
passionate about.
We both have seen uh that haspractically uh made a big
difference in the life of abeliever.
I'd say it's a it's a necessityfor being a healthy Christian.
Uh and that's churchmembership.
Jim (01:28):
That is so true, it is, and I think it's um it's
undervalued today.
Jon (01:32):
I agree.
I think for some they mightsay, well, this isn't gonna be a
dry conversation.
I said, wait a minute, maybe,maybe not.
Just bear with us.
Uh and while we both care muchabout this subject, I do think
there's a lot of valuable thingsthat we can kind of uh work out
from the scriptures and justpractically on why membership in
(01:53):
a local church is meaningfuland it matters.
Jim (01:57):
I agree, and I think that uh if we hope to really be the
church as God would have us,then membership needs to have a
higher esteem in the lives ofGod's people.
Jon (02:06):
Aaron Powell So why do you think it is that so many
Christians today maybe struggleto see the value of church
membership?
Jim (02:15):
Well, I think one is they say, well, formal church
membership is not mentioned inthe Bible.
I find that's a very weakargument, uh, but I think that's
it.
Jon (02:24):
But is there is there a passage uh on the Trinity
explicitly in the Bible?
Jim (02:28):
That's that was my comment on that as well, and I've had
that comment with other people,but but I think it's even more
um an issue is because theydon't understand uh the church
from God's perspective.
Uh perhaps even uh a failure tounderstand the metaphors, the
husband and the bride, uh, thebody and the head, uh, the vine
(02:49):
and the branches.
There's so many uh ways thatGod portrays his church, and I
think Christians, generallyspeaking, uh they've been uh uh
they've been worldly uh worldlyeyes, so to speak, and thus they
have a very low view of thechurch, even to the point where
some people would even say,Well, it's just Jesus and me.
I really don't need the church.
Jon (03:09):
You know, I think while we can look at the individuals and
say there's certainly ignorancethere.
It's a maybe it's also asymptom of a bigger problem, not
just in individuals, but in thelack of intentional teaching on
what is a church.
You know, to expect a newbeliever just to go and find a
(03:33):
way to just dive deep intoecclesiology, I yeah, we
shouldn't expect that.
And I mean, if we really wantedto give this full treatment,
you start with doctrine of thechurch and membership flows from
that.
Although we're we're gonna dealspecifically with church
membership, but I do agree thata lack of understanding of the
church, uh, both on theindividual and in many churches,
(03:55):
to teach and explain and giveforth a kind of a robust
ecclesiology or doctrine of thechurch.
Jim (04:02):
Well, I think that's where it needs to start.
I mean, I didn't want it tosound like we're just blaming
the sheep, we're blaming thesebelievers.
It always starts with uh theshepherds before you go to the
sheep.
And we have uh we need to do abetter job of educating in a
vibrant, living way thepositives of church membership
instead of just making aninformal thing.
Jon (04:23):
I got an idea.
Why don't we do a podcast onchurch membership to explain the
positives of it?
Yeah, for sure.
That's a great idea.
Uh so all right, you say uhsome of the common maybe a
statement is, well, I don't seechurch membership in the Bible.
My response to that is it'sthere.
And once you see it, you cannever unsee it.
(04:43):
So we think about some biblicalpassages.
What comes to your mind uhthat, you know, when we think
about obviously New Testamentchurch, any passages stand out
to you?
Jim (04:53):
Yeah, I think the uh the Acts 2 passage, beginning in
verse uh 42.
This is what uh Luke wouldwrite beginning in verse 42 of
Acts II.
And they devoted themselves tothe apostles' teaching and the
fellowship to the breaking ofbread and prayers, and awe or
fear came upon every soul, andmany wonders and signs were
being done through the apostles,and all who believed were
(05:14):
together and had all things incommon, and they were selling
their possessions and belongingsand distributing the proceeds
to all as any had need.
And day by day attending thetemple together and breaking
bread in their homes, theyreceived their food with glad
and generous hearts, praisingGod and having favor with all
the people, and the Lord addedto their number day by day those
(05:36):
who were being saved.
When you look at this passage,I ask myself the question if I
was transported back in time tothis period, would I stand out
and be odd or would I fit in?
Jon (05:50):
I look at this passage, and if I'm reading it, and I say,
Well, I don't see I don't seehim say church membership here.
You know, how how do you how doyou tell me this this means I
should be the member of achurch?
Jim (06:01):
Well, I mean, in in in a simple term, I would say to
rightly understand membership,it's about immersion.
It's about immersion in eachother's lives.
Jon (06:11):
Ah, okay.
Jim (06:12):
And here, it it seems like there is no individuality.
It's all lost in the corporate,and not in a corporate in a
formal sense.
And let's remember, uh, theydidn't have buildings like we
have.
Sure.
And so there's this there'sthis immersion in lives where um
they carried each other'sburdens, they met tangible
needs, they worshiped, theyreceived instruction, and it
(06:34):
says that fear came up on all ofthem, and we note at the very
end when the church is operatingin all of this immersion type
language, if you notice the lastpart, and the Lord added to the
number day by day's uh day byday, those who are being saved,
it's almost telling us like bethe church and evangelism will
occur.
Jon (06:52):
Yeah, that's really good.
And we see here, okay, maybe itdoesn't explicitly say here's
the formula for joining achurch, but what you do see
principally here is that they'reliving out their membership and
how they're relating to oneanother, centered around uh the
apostolic word, here's the wordof God, to the breaking of
(07:12):
bread.
I would say that this is thisis more than just fellowship,
this is the Lord's Supper.
They're praying together, andthey're and and and all who
believed were together.
Jim (07:23):
Together shows up uh quite a bit in the uh first few
chapters of of uh of Acts asthey were together and praying
prior to uh Pentecost, and thenthis is a curse.
Um when I read this passage andand people say, Well, I don't
need to be formally attached toa church, I would ask the person
this question, why wouldn't youwant to be a part of this?
This is exciting.
(07:44):
I mean, this is this is thevibrant um corporate
Christianity that changes theworld.
Jon (07:50):
Yeah, and and God, and it as it says you're praising God
and having favor with all thepeople, and the Lord added to
their number day by day thosewho are being saved.
The fact that there is anumber, they're counting.
And in the sense of counting,to count, you need to know who's
in and who's out.
That's right.
So that's right.
And as Luke throughout Acts,he'll give us these little, you
(08:11):
know, 3,000 souls were added,5,000 souls were added.
I I would say that's themembership role.
That's the people who belong tothe church as they're
committing themselves in faith,you know, faith in Christ as
they're regenerate and they'reborn again, they are in the
church.
Clearly, there's some someone'staken.
Jim (08:31):
I believe so.
I mean, I think that that's astrong evidence of uh of
membership.
And then you go on and read thebook of Acts and you see all
these the missionary trips ofPaul, and you see how these
local places are establishingbelievers and they're together,
and three times throughout thebook of Acts it says, and the
word of God increased, and theword of God multiplied, which
(08:52):
means that that was the vehicle,which we also see in Acts 2, of
growth.
Jon (08:56):
You see, you see that through faithful proclamation
the church grows.
You also see in the book ofActs, through persecution the
church grows, and just throughordinary means the church grows.
Growth is not dependent uponcircumstances, it's dependent
upon God.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Absolutely.
Jon (09:10):
Here's another passage.
Uh Romans chapter 12, verses 4and 5.
For as in one body we have manymembers, and the members do not
all have the same function.
So we, though many, are onebody in Christ, and individually
members one of another.
Here's a few things to framehere.
(09:30):
Paul's writing to a localassembly, a local church in
Rome, to the church in Rome, andhe's telling them explicitly
here, we are one body.
This is this is one church.
If it's expressed in the local,it's it's one gathering of a
local assembly and have manymembers.
(09:51):
And we do not all have the samefunction.
So he's getting into theexercising of gifts and
functions of many members of alocal assembly.
I think that's pretty clearright there on the importance of
church membership.
Jim (10:06):
Oh, absolutely.
I believe that that's one ofthe strongest passages,
especially when he mentions weare members one of another.
There is an individuality aboutthe Christian life, but there's
not a privatization of theChristian life.
There's a difference.
We're saved individually, butwe grow um corporately, we grow
in our togetherness.
And I don't believe you can uhadequately practice the one
(10:28):
another's, which there's overfifty of them, unless you're
committed in a very close-knitecclesia, so to speak, a in a
local assembly.
Jon (10:38):
Yeah, that that's good.
Jim (10:39):
Other passages?
Um 1 Corinthians.
1 Corinthians chapter 12.
Jon (10:44):
Well, it's almost like a parallel to what's Paul's saying
in Romans.
Jim (10:47):
And he talks about um in the heading of uh of my Bible,
it says one body with manymembers.
It's 1 Corinthians 12, uhbeginning in verse 12.
And he would say, For just asthe body is one and has many
members, and all the members ofthe body, though many, are one
body, so it is with Christ.
For in one spirit we were allbaptized into one body, Jews or
(11:09):
Greeks, slaves or free, and allwere made to drink of one
spirit.
And he would go on and talkabout uh the different parts of
the body.
I think the main thrust here iswhat you just mentioned in
Romans.
You know, we are not our own.
Uh I am responsible andprivileged to be a part of the
body of Christ, not in theinvisible sense, but in a
visible local way that I'm heldaccountable and I'm also holding
(11:32):
people accountable in thespirit of Christ and of his
love.
Jon (11:36):
It takes a body of believers exercising their uh
unique spiritual gifting for thechurch to thrive and be
healthy.
And for as for us, we've beengifted as teachers and shepherds
to the church.
Yes, we do administration aswell of that of that nature.
That's part of being anoverseer, but we're only
(11:58):
uniquely gifted in one area.
The church is bigger than justour giftedness.
We need our brothers andsisters who are gifted in other
areas so that as a whole body wecarry out the mission of Jesus
in the world.
Jim (12:14):
Yeah, I think when you talk about giftedness, uh, as much
as um uh we have to recognizethose.
I know that you're teaching auh a class on spiritual
disciplines in our Bibleinstitute.
I believe a l a reason why alot of Christians don't immerse
themselves in a formal churchmembership or in this type of uh
climate that we're readingabout about is they are not
(12:37):
healthy individually.
Jon (12:39):
Yeah, it's important to grow as a as an individual
Christian in your owndisciplines, and to grow as kind
of a corporate Christian.
Jim (12:47):
But that's not in and you're not and you're not
teaching that, that's not inisolation.
Uh I grow individually so thatI can contribute to the larger.
Um we're only as strongcorporately as we are
individually, bringing it intothe corporate setting.
Jon (13:01):
Yeah, and even in teaching spiritual disciplines, I'm
learning and growing so muchbecause of the classroom that
we're in and we're comingtogether.
So uh we're we're made to we wegrow as individuals, but we're
not made to just grow and learnin isolation.
And so as we're together incommunity, that's one of the
(13:22):
helpful things.
And so, yeah, I mean, clearlythe scriptures say the the
church has many members becausewe are gifted in many ways for
ultimately pleasing God, makingdisciples of Jesus Christ.
Jim (13:34):
And I think one of your responsibility, my
responsibility as the pastors,teachers, preachers, is we got
to make sure uh that uh no oneuh no one is excluded.
There is no um uh non-importantperson in the body.
Jon (13:49):
That's right.
Amen.
Jim (13:50):
Because the first Corinthians 12 talks about the
wide the variety, like the thefoot, the hand, and so forth.
And we gotta be careful that uhthe more visible gifts are not
uh accentuated at the expense ofthe lesser ones.
Jon (14:03):
That's right.
Jim (14:04):
Yeah, which we need, we've got people here that are behind
the scenes that uh are justphenomenal using their area of
giftedness, and uh they're theyfind satisfaction in that.
We can't uh overemphasize themore visible gifts at the
expense of those that are not.
Jon (14:19):
I 100% agree with you because uh and I would also say
because of just in our positionsand the exercising of visible
gifts, that comes with such anadded weight.
I didn't ask for this, I didn'tsign up for this.
I didn't I didn't say, like,God, you know, make me a pastor.
(14:42):
I mean, if I get bitten to mybackstory, I was kind of like uh
Yeah, I know I can relate tothat.
Let's just be very clear aboutthat.
Some of these come with a aweight of responsibility that
you know, you say, Man, wouldn'tit be nice to have that
invisible?
You know, like I just want toput my head down and when we are
(15:04):
operating within our giftednessas members of the church, our
service doesn't feel likesacrifice, our commitment isn't
drudgery.
I think about Jesus in theOlivet Discourse when he's
talking, you know, those thatwere hungry that fed his people,
those that were uh when theywere hungry, fed them, when they
were naked, you know, theyclothed them when they were in
prison, they visited them.
They were like, when did we dothese things to you?
(15:26):
Like, we're just we're justliving out our authentic
Christianity.
And he's like, To do to any ofmy brothers is to do unto me.
And they're like, We're justbeing servants.
You know, we're weren't like,hey, look at what I've done.
Very much so.
Here, all right, here's anotherpassage.
Uh Hebrews chapter 13, verse17.
(15:46):
Obey your leaders and submit tothem, for they are keeping
watch over your souls, as thosewho will have to give an
account.
Let them do this with joy, notwith groaning, for that would be
of no advantage to you.
A few observations to make fromthis one.
Leaders need to know who theirsheep are.
Sheep need to know who theirleaders are.
Does this mean that if somebodyshows up to the church that I'm
(16:10):
pastoring and they show up fortwo weeks, that I'm
automatically their leader?
And then they automaticallyneed to submit to me and that
I'm keeping a watch over theirsouls?
I would say no.
I'd say there there needs tobe, at least in this sense,
church membership helps us tounderstand who's in and who's
out.
Who am I responsible for?
And who do I have thatspiritual authority and
(16:33):
oversight of?
I can't, it's not, he's nottalking here about general
Christians all over the world,that if you're a pastor, you
have authority over allChristians.
No, you it has to be specific.
Like if somebody's a member ofa church down the road and they
come to me, I have no authorityin their life.
I can give them some biblicalcounsel and maybe send them, you
(16:54):
know, help them along theirway.
This I probably wouldn't sendthem back to their pastor.
Clearly, to have a leader meansto have a congregation.
Jim (17:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that um what happens uhpeople will will come and for
there's no formal m churchmembership, uh it's so loose
that people don't feelaccountable, nor do we uh feel
like we have any type ofrelationship with them because
they may come for two weeks andthen you never see them again.
So you've got to be carefulthat we don't take ownership of
uh of sheep that they may noteven be sheep.
(17:23):
The scripture it says, for theyare keeping watch over your
souls.
So could keep watch over theirsouls, I need to know the state
of their souls.
Do they need do they need to besaved or do they need to be
discipled?
And you can't know that in amatter of just a couple weeks.
So what you've ins emphasizedhere with uh with with a new
membership class and and uh andregenerate membership, sure, and
(17:45):
that's an important partbecause I can't keep watch over
their souls unless I know theirsouls, and you can't know that
in a short period of time.
Jon (17:51):
The church membership is is very much reciprocal in that we
receive and we give, we giveand we receive, we're fed and we
feed, um, we're served and weserve.
And that's again just the wholecycle of the body working
together for the glory of Jesus.
So I think these are even thesefour passages lay a pretty
solid biblical foundation.
(18:11):
We could look at more, but uhjust to kind of move along with
our conversation, think aboutsome advantages.
What are the positives?
I don't want to talk about thenegatives of why you should, but
like what is what would compela person?
What's a positive thing thatcompels someone to say, I do
want to be a church member?
I think of four, and we couldtalk through all four of these,
(18:34):
but belonging, accountability,ministry, and mission.
And certainly you could come upwith a bunch of other ones, but
just at a high level, these arepositive things that are in the
life that that can be in theregular rhythm in life of a
believer who is a member of alocal church.
(18:56):
So let's talk a little bitabout belonging.
We were made for relationships.
It's not good that man shouldbe alone.
God says that companionship,but belonging to some something
and something bigger thanourselves, local church
membership, that's where it isworked out and lived out.
Jim (19:16):
Yeah, and I think I think when you look at the the fact
that we are family, that God insalvation has formed a forever
family that he wants thatfleshed out in this life with
the anticipation of eternitytogether.
And when we stress that this isa family, it really provides
safety, it provides uh comfort,it provides mutual help.
(19:38):
If we're developing like weshould as a church in a family
context, then I'm gonna haverelationships where I wouldn't
hesitate at two o'clock in themorning when life is falling
apart, that I would pick up aphone and call someone because I
know they'd be there.
Jon (19:52):
And the reality is family life sometimes gets messy.
Very conflict.
What belonging does in localchurch membership, it helps us
to be able to work throughsometimes messiness, our own
messiness, maybe the messinessof someone else working through
and navigating conflict in a waythat like we don't just say,
(20:12):
well, off to the next one.
Jim (20:14):
I think there's very few reasons to leave uh a local
church if you understand thebelonging, because you don't I
don't leave my physical familybecause it gets messy.
Why would I do that to theeternal family?
Jon (20:25):
Yeah.
And so belonging gives us aplace where we call home and we
know that we are loved and wecan love.
The healthy church is a placewhere people can be transparent
and vulnerable, be loved, beencouraged.
Again, it's something that'sextremely valuable that we need
in this life.
If we are uncomfortable withthe people of God in this life,
(20:49):
why do we assume that in thelife to come it's gonna be
great?
Oh, because it's without sin?
We need to start getting readyfor eternity today.
Jim (20:56):
Well, and I think that the the messiness is also the
uncomfortableness of beingcorrected.
Well, that that's the next one,accountability.
Yeah, accountability.
Jon (21:04):
Accountability.
This is a positive.
If you are wanting to walk inthe light, that's correct.
If you are somebody that'strying to conceal yourself in
the darkness, well, I don'tthink you you shouldn't be a
church member, right?
First John makes that veryclear.
That's true.
That if you walk in darkness,you have no fellowship.
So accountability is abeautiful and wonderful thing.
(21:25):
When it's done according toscripture, with the heart for
caring for others.
When accountability turns intosurveillance, nobody wants that.
That's right.
That's right.
Whatever Christian you are,nobody's wanting that.
But somebody that's gonna, youknow, make sure that I'm, you
know, loving my wife well.
How's your marriage, John?
I want to be asked thosequestions because I want to ask
(21:46):
those questions, not not tojust, you know, surveil someone,
but from someone who's askingme those things from a heart
that says, I care about you asmy brother, and I want to help
you follow Jesus better.
That's the motivation foraccountability.
Jim (22:00):
Well, you you need that.
And much as we don't like itbecause we we we've still got
some pride issues.
Um, James would tell us what isthe the most devastating of
deception.
It's not satanic, it'sself-deception.
He said, be doers of the word,you're not hearers only,
deceiving yourselves.
And I think accountability willallow us to avoid the
(22:21):
self-deception because we're inthose relationships.
I know that we're not all goingto be so close.
I mean, Jesus had differentcircles of the disciples, but
it's important that we havethose accountability
relationships.
And like you said, it's not forsurveillance, it's for uh it's
for the mutual encouragement andgrowth of uh of the body and
individual members of the world.
Jon (22:42):
We want to be a church that is growing corporately into the
likeness of Jesus, and we cando that by being accountable to
one another.
And that's what churchmembership really is.
A part of it is accountability.
All right, ministry.
Here's another one.
Membership isn't just aboutgetting benefits of belonging
and accountability, it's alsoabout serving.
So, how how do we help peopleget into positions of serving,
(23:04):
maybe to discover theirspiritual gifts, so that as
we've talked about in Romans andin the Corinthian letter, first
Corinthians, how do we helppeople get into positions where
they can thrive?
Jim (23:15):
Well, I I think our responsibility is um is to
prayerfully as a leadership teamuh create opportunities to fall
in line with our vision of uhof the Great Commission and the
Great Commandment is createopportunities.
And even in our um ourmembership classes uh to regular
and our quarterly meetings, weshould regularly be promoting
(23:37):
and and letting people know thatthere are opportunities.
These opportunities exist, andalso that by observation of
people, uh we shouldindividually uh approach people.
But you know what?
Have you ever considered uhthis area of service?
Of uh watch your faithfulness,and you know, I've seen you
interact with this, maybe thiswould be something you might
want to consider.
Um so I think we as leaders wegot to be constantly on
(23:57):
awareness of where people mightfit in, so to speak, and then
and have them test the waters,so to speak.
Jon (24:03):
And so yeah, opportunities.
Jim (24:05):
We we need to create opportunities for them.
Jon (24:07):
And oftentimes I think where our passions and desires
lie is where God's gifted us to.
Sure.
You know, obviously sanctifieddesires, sanctified motive in
that, and uh those are importantareas which we can serve.
Local church membership allowsfor the expression of service
and ministry that you I mean,you can get in the pair church
(24:27):
and get it uh elsewhere, butplan A of God's plan through the
gospel is to build a church.
I mean, Jesus said, I willbuild my church and the gates of
hell will not prevail againstit.
This is the plan, this is theoutflow of the gospel.
Jesus gives the mission, thegreat commission, and what do
the apostles do?
They go and plant churches,they go and evangelize and they
(24:49):
and they create localassemblies.
And this was the whole missionof the first century.
What's really cool is thatthrough through church
membership, in a sense, we lockarms with the generation that
preceded us, who locked armswith the generation that
preceded, and we go all the wayback in this continual mission
of the church, back to theapostles.
Jim (25:10):
Yeah, we're standing on the shoulders of those who've gone
before us.
I giants.
Yeah, giants.
And what you've what you'vesaid numerous times here is true
is we got to be careful that inour seeking to get people to
serve uh is not to have themequate their spirituality to
their flurry of activity inservice.
And that's why we won't letpeople do multiple, many things.
(25:31):
We will restrict them becauseuh I think Dr.
Martin Lloyd Jones said onetime, he says, uh one of the
worst things you can do for anew convert is tell them to get
busy.
Uh they need to s they need tosettle in, they need to learn,
they need to grow.
And I'm not saying no service,but what I'm saying is let's
don't just get them into aflurry of activities where it's
always output and there's noinput.
(25:52):
And so we we've done a goodjob, I believe, uh of
restricting people.
Jon (25:56):
Limit limiting the Marthas and cultivating the martyrs.
Jim (25:59):
Absolutely.
Jon (25:59):
That that's the illustration it should be.
And uh we have a heart toserve, we love to serve, we love
to be about busy about thekingdom work.
Um but as we as we output, weneed input as well.
Being a member of a localchurch connects you to the
mission of the church.
Jim (26:14):
Absolutely.
Jon (26:15):
Of making disciples.
And I think it's one of themost healthy expressions that we
can make as as believers.
Jim (26:22):
One thing about your gift that you said about giftedness
and accountability and ministry,uh, we gotta make sure, and I
believe we're striving to dothat, is cultivate in the church
that Christianity is a uh aparticipant sport, so to speak.
It's not spectator.
We don't come to to set, wecome to participate.
And that participation has wideuh ranges of expressions, but
(26:46):
we don't we're not passiveChristians in the local church.
And uh we all have a role, andour responsibility is to help
people fit into their roles.
Jon (26:55):
Okay, so let's talk about just briefly here living out
church membership.
A couple questions for you,just personally, not as a
pastor, but as a Christianthroughout the the course of
your life.
How has belonging to committingyourself to a local assembly,
how has that affected your walkwith Christ?
Jim (27:16):
Well, I I think multiple ways.
I was having this conversationwith someone the other night.
There was a question aboutchurch membership, and uh I
said, what it's done for me,because you remember from our
last time is that I was I was ona ship and I was an associated
with a church and the churchnever sought me and I never
sought the church and all waswell.
Well, all wasn't well.
And uh what happened to with mein church membership is I saw
(27:40):
that that I was able to seethese are my people and I am
their people.
Uh and so it created this realspirit of intimacy that why
would I want to hurt or whywould I want to do anything to
bring uh disrepute to the to thecause of Christ?
So it really developed withinme membership is that these are
(28:03):
my people.
I have committed to thesepeople through thick and thin,
you know, just like a marriageand through thicker thin.
Now I understand Godprovidentially moves us and
things like that.
But one thing it has that, itit created within me this desire
uh to publicly uh acknowledgethat these are my people.
And the other thing is that umit it gave me a real focused
(28:25):
opportunity to to serve uhalongside other Christians in
the work of the mission.
I don't believe there'sanything of greater joy than to
co-labor with someone in thework of the gospel.
I mean that that is such athrilling thing, and you don't
you can't get that individually,you can't get live uh had that
(28:45):
living the Christian life Jesusand me.
It just doesn't work.
You need so uh the intimacy ofbelonging, and these are my
people.
Secondly, opportunity to to beabout the mission of the church
together.
It's lonely if you try to go byyourself and it's discouraging.
The church provides theopportunity uh for us to uh lock
arms and to be together in thein the great text.
Jon (29:07):
We've heard the illustration, I'm sure it's gone
through so many differentchanges, where you have you have
a fire that's burning.
You've got your logs in thefire.
Yeah.
And as if you were to remove alog or a or a burning coal from
that fire and put it to theside, it's just a matter of time
(29:28):
before that coal goes out.
The fire that is is gonna keepgoing, but that one piece is no
longer lit.
And I think about churchmembership in a way of where we
got all of our sticks in thefire, and this is where we are
all together because as we aretogether, we are better
together.
That's right, we are strongertogether, we can accomplish more
(29:50):
for the kingdom of Godtogether, and we keep the fire
going.
And I I need that, I need thatas a local church member to be
connected to the fire.
Because if I'm isolated, I knowmy own heart.
Jim (30:04):
Well, you're clo you're quoting Solomon in Ecclesiastes
4.
Two are better than one.
You know, when when you fall,who's gonna be there to pick you
up?
So that's part of it too.
Jon (30:12):
All right.
What encouragement would yougive to someone right now who
might be listening and say, youknow, I've thought about church
membership.
I I've kind of been dancingaround on this, or you know, I'm
kind of in between churchesright now.
What positive good word wouldyou give to somebody uh
concerning this subject ofchurch membership?
Jim (30:32):
Find a place that you're aligned up with scripturally,
plant yourself and blossom.
Yes.
I mean, plant yourself andblossom.
Jon (30:41):
But I would also say to an individual, if you find a
perfect church, don't join it.
Jim (30:45):
Because you'll ruin it.
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
So and if if you came here andyou think it's perfect, just say
you're six weeks and you'llfind out.
Uh so I would I would tell theperson, it's just, I said, don't
be nomadic.
I said, don't be, don't, don'tbe a hopper.
Go to a place and plantyourself, go deep into roots, be
involved in the mission.
(31:06):
When the church is doing thatwith his people, I love what
Acts 9 says, 931.
So the church throughout allJudea and Galilee and Samaria
had peace and was being built upand walking in the fear of the
Lord and in the comfort of theHoly Spirit, it multiplied.
That's right.
So I would tell that person,you want to be in an exciting
place, plant yourself, uh, getinvolved, grow, plant roots,
(31:30):
bear fruit, and enjoy theChristian life in a strong
biblical-based community.
Jon (31:35):
That's great.
Because belonging to a localchurch isn't about checking a
box.
It's about living out yourChristian life in community with
one another.
Jim (31:44):
Well, there's fifty over fifty one another commands.
Uh, you have to have some placeto obey them, and the church is
the place that God has ordainedit to be.
And and what a great promise isthat the Lord would build his
church.
That's right.
And that he has promised, aswe've been studying the
revelation on some Sundaynights, is that he walks among
his candlesticks.
So God takes great delight inmeeting with his people, uh,
(32:08):
among his people when we gatherand being the church.
Jon (32:12):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
And it's a be it's a beautifulthing.
Just again, I want to reiteratethe church is not perfect, but
it is the bride for whom Christdied.
Jesus loved the church so muchthat he gave his life for her.
Our expression as Jesus' peopleis to love his bride as he
does.
And so I don't believe you canbe a healthy Christian and hate
(32:35):
the church.
Jim (32:36):
Or you could, I agree with that wholeheartedly, and you
cannot be a healthy Christianand not be involved in the
things we talked about in thelocal church.
And if uh yeah, and becausethere is no perfect church, find
you a really good one and andand just immerse yourself in it.
Jon (32:53):
Sure.
All right.
Well, thanks for joining meagain.
Jim (32:56):
Love having conversations with you.
It was awesome, and uh, I'll behappy to join you anytime you'd
like.
All right.
All right.
Jon (33:01):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions,especially about church
membership, what that lookslike, wherever you are and
wherever you're listening from,you can always reach out at
questions at pleasinggodpodcast.org.
I would love to hear from you,and I would answer any questions
that you might have.
And I want you to remember 1Thessalonians 4 3, this is the
(33:22):
will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I hadanother great opportunity to sit
down with Pastor Jim, and weboth got to talk about a subject
that is meaningful to us,important in our lives, not just
(00:20):
as pastors, but as Christians,and that's church membership,
belonging in the local church.
We talk through biblicalrationale for why church
membership is important.
What does the scripture sayabout it?
And then how we can kind ofpractically live that out with
the benefits of churchmembership.
So I hope as you listen, youare encouraged, helps you to
(00:42):
again love your church, givethanks for your church, and if
you're not a church member, tothink carefully about joining
and belonging to whatever localassembly you are a part of.
And I hope you are encouragedfrom this episode.
Well, Dad, welcome back.
(01:04):
It's good to have you again.
Jim (01:06):
Well, thank you, Jonathan.
It's uh pleasure to be with youagain.
Jon (01:08):
All right.
Well, we're gonna talk about Ithink a subject that we're both
passionate about.
We both have seen uh that haspractically uh made a big
difference in the life of abeliever.
I'd say it's a it's a necessityfor being a healthy Christian.
Uh and that's churchmembership.
Jim (01:28):
That is so true, it is, and I think it's um it's
undervalued today.
Jon (01:32):
I agree.
I think for some they mightsay, well, this isn't gonna be a
dry conversation.
I said, wait a minute, maybe,maybe not.
Just bear with us.
Uh and while we both care muchabout this subject, I do think
there's a lot of valuable thingsthat we can kind of uh work out
from the scriptures and justpractically on why membership in
(01:53):
a local church is meaningfuland it matters.
Jim (01:57):
I agree, and I think that uh if we hope to really be the
church as God would have us,then membership needs to have a
higher esteem in the lives ofGod's people.
Jon (02:06):
Aaron Powell So why do you think it is that so many
Christians today maybe struggleto see the value of church
membership?
Jim (02:15):
Well, I think one is they say, well, formal church
membership is not mentioned inthe Bible.
I find that's a very weakargument, uh, but I think that's
it.
Jon (02:24):
But is there is there a passage uh on the Trinity
explicitly in the Bible?
Jim (02:28):
That's that was my comment on that as well, and I've had
that comment with other people,but but I think it's even more
um an issue is because theydon't understand uh the church
from God's perspective.
Uh perhaps even uh a failure tounderstand the metaphors, the
husband and the bride, uh, thebody and the head, uh, the vine
(02:49):
and the branches.
There's so many uh ways thatGod portrays his church, and I
think Christians, generallyspeaking, uh they've been uh uh
they've been worldly uh worldlyeyes, so to speak, and thus they
have a very low view of thechurch, even to the point where
some people would even say,Well, it's just Jesus and me.
I really don't need the church.
Jon (03:09):
You know, I think while we can look at the individuals and
say there's certainly ignorancethere.
It's a maybe it's also asymptom of a bigger problem, not
just in individuals, but in thelack of intentional teaching on
what is a church.
You know, to expect a newbeliever just to go and find a
(03:33):
way to just dive deep intoecclesiology, I yeah, we
shouldn't expect that.
And I mean, if we really wantedto give this full treatment,
you start with doctrine of thechurch and membership flows from
that.
Although we're we're gonna dealspecifically with church
membership, but I do agree thata lack of understanding of the
church, uh, both on theindividual and in many churches,
(03:55):
to teach and explain and giveforth a kind of a robust
ecclesiology or doctrine of thechurch.
Jim (04:02):
Well, I think that's where it needs to start.
I mean, I didn't want it tosound like we're just blaming
the sheep, we're blaming thesebelievers.
It always starts with uh theshepherds before you go to the
sheep.
And we have uh we need to do abetter job of educating in a
vibrant, living way thepositives of church membership
instead of just making aninformal thing.
Jon (04:23):
I got an idea.
Why don't we do a podcast onchurch membership to explain the
positives of it?
Yeah, for sure.
That's a great idea.
Uh so all right, you say uhsome of the common maybe a
statement is, well, I don't seechurch membership in the Bible.
My response to that is it'sthere.
And once you see it, you cannever unsee it.
(04:43):
So we think about some biblicalpassages.
What comes to your mind uhthat, you know, when we think
about obviously New Testamentchurch, any passages stand out
to you?
Jim (04:53):
Yeah, I think the uh the Acts 2 passage, beginning in
verse uh 42.
This is what uh Luke wouldwrite beginning in verse 42 of
Acts II.
And they devoted themselves tothe apostles' teaching and the
fellowship to the breaking ofbread and prayers, and awe or
fear came upon every soul, andmany wonders and signs were
being done through the apostles,and all who believed were
(05:14):
together and had all things incommon, and they were selling
their possessions and belongingsand distributing the proceeds
to all as any had need.
And day by day attending thetemple together and breaking
bread in their homes, theyreceived their food with glad
and generous hearts, praisingGod and having favor with all
the people, and the Lord addedto their number day by day those
(05:36):
who were being saved.
When you look at this passage,I ask myself the question if I
was transported back in time tothis period, would I stand out
and be odd or would I fit in?
Jon (05:50):
I look at this passage, and if I'm reading it, and I say,
Well, I don't see I don't seehim say church membership here.
You know, how how do you how doyou tell me this this means I
should be the member of achurch?
Jim (06:01):
Well, I mean, in in in a simple term, I would say to
rightly understand membership,it's about immersion.
It's about immersion in eachother's lives.
Jon (06:11):
Ah, okay.
Jim (06:12):
And here, it it seems like there is no individuality.
It's all lost in the corporate,and not in a corporate in a
formal sense.
And let's remember, uh, theydidn't have buildings like we
have.
Sure.
And so there's this there'sthis immersion in lives where um
they carried each other'sburdens, they met tangible
needs, they worshiped, theyreceived instruction, and it
(06:34):
says that fear came up on all ofthem, and we note at the very
end when the church is operatingin all of this immersion type
language, if you notice the lastpart, and the Lord added to the
number day by day's uh day byday, those who are being saved,
it's almost telling us like bethe church and evangelism will
occur.
Jon (06:52):
Yeah, that's really good.
And we see here, okay, maybe itdoesn't explicitly say here's
the formula for joining achurch, but what you do see
principally here is that they'reliving out their membership and
how they're relating to oneanother, centered around uh the
apostolic word, here's the wordof God, to the breaking of
(07:12):
bread.
I would say that this is thisis more than just fellowship,
this is the Lord's Supper.
They're praying together, andthey're and and and all who
believed were together.
Jim (07:23):
Together shows up uh quite a bit in the uh first few
chapters of of uh of Acts asthey were together and praying
prior to uh Pentecost, and thenthis is a curse.
Um when I read this passage andand people say, Well, I don't
need to be formally attached toa church, I would ask the person
this question, why wouldn't youwant to be a part of this?
This is exciting.
(07:44):
I mean, this is this is thevibrant um corporate
Christianity that changes theworld.
Jon (07:50):
Yeah, and and God, and it as it says you're praising God
and having favor with all thepeople, and the Lord added to
their number day by day thosewho are being saved.
The fact that there is anumber, they're counting.
And in the sense of counting,to count, you need to know who's
in and who's out.
That's right.
So that's right.
And as Luke throughout Acts,he'll give us these little, you
(08:11):
know, 3,000 souls were added,5,000 souls were added.
I I would say that's themembership role.
That's the people who belong tothe church as they're
committing themselves in faith,you know, faith in Christ as
they're regenerate and they'reborn again, they are in the
church.
Clearly, there's some someone'staken.
Jim (08:31):
I believe so.
I mean, I think that that's astrong evidence of uh of
membership.
And then you go on and read thebook of Acts and you see all
these the missionary trips ofPaul, and you see how these
local places are establishingbelievers and they're together,
and three times throughout thebook of Acts it says, and the
word of God increased, and theword of God multiplied, which
(08:52):
means that that was the vehicle,which we also see in Acts 2, of
growth.
Jon (08:56):
You see, you see that through faithful proclamation
the church grows.
You also see in the book ofActs, through persecution the
church grows, and just throughordinary means the church grows.
Growth is not dependent uponcircumstances, it's dependent
upon God.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Absolutely.
Jon (09:10):
Here's another passage.
Uh Romans chapter 12, verses 4and 5.
For as in one body we have manymembers, and the members do not
all have the same function.
So we, though many, are onebody in Christ, and individually
members one of another.
Here's a few things to framehere.
(09:30):
Paul's writing to a localassembly, a local church in
Rome, to the church in Rome, andhe's telling them explicitly
here, we are one body.
This is this is one church.
If it's expressed in the local,it's it's one gathering of a
local assembly and have manymembers.
(09:51):
And we do not all have the samefunction.
So he's getting into theexercising of gifts and
functions of many members of alocal assembly.
I think that's pretty clearright there on the importance of
church membership.
Jim (10:06):
Oh, absolutely.
I believe that that's one ofthe strongest passages,
especially when he mentions weare members one of another.
There is an individuality aboutthe Christian life, but there's
not a privatization of theChristian life.
There's a difference.
We're saved individually, butwe grow um corporately, we grow
in our togetherness.
And I don't believe you can uhadequately practice the one
(10:28):
another's, which there's overfifty of them, unless you're
committed in a very close-knitecclesia, so to speak, a in a
local assembly.
Jon (10:38):
Yeah, that that's good.
Jim (10:39):
Other passages?
Um 1 Corinthians.
1 Corinthians chapter 12.
Jon (10:44):
Well, it's almost like a parallel to what's Paul's saying
in Romans.
Jim (10:47):
And he talks about um in the heading of uh of my Bible,
it says one body with manymembers.
It's 1 Corinthians 12, uhbeginning in verse 12.
And he would say, For just asthe body is one and has many
members, and all the members ofthe body, though many, are one
body, so it is with Christ.
For in one spirit we were allbaptized into one body, Jews or
(11:09):
Greeks, slaves or free, and allwere made to drink of one
spirit.
And he would go on and talkabout uh the different parts of
the body.
I think the main thrust here iswhat you just mentioned in
Romans.
You know, we are not our own.
Uh I am responsible andprivileged to be a part of the
body of Christ, not in theinvisible sense, but in a
visible local way that I'm heldaccountable and I'm also holding
(11:32):
people accountable in thespirit of Christ and of his
love.
Jon (11:36):
It takes a body of believers exercising their uh
unique spiritual gifting for thechurch to thrive and be
healthy.
And for as for us, we've beengifted as teachers and shepherds
to the church.
Yes, we do administration aswell of that of that nature.
That's part of being anoverseer, but we're only
(11:58):
uniquely gifted in one area.
The church is bigger than justour giftedness.
We need our brothers andsisters who are gifted in other
areas so that as a whole body wecarry out the mission of Jesus
in the world.
Jim (12:14):
Yeah, I think when you talk about giftedness, uh, as much
as um uh we have to recognizethose.
I know that you're teaching auh a class on spiritual
disciplines in our Bibleinstitute.
I believe a l a reason why alot of Christians don't immerse
themselves in a formal churchmembership or in this type of uh
climate that we're readingabout about is they are not
(12:37):
healthy individually.
Jon (12:39):
Yeah, it's important to grow as a as an individual
Christian in your owndisciplines, and to grow as kind
of a corporate Christian.
Jim (12:47):
But that's not in and you're not and you're not
teaching that, that's not inisolation.
Uh I grow individually so thatI can contribute to the larger.
Um we're only as strongcorporately as we are
individually, bringing it intothe corporate setting.
Jon (13:01):
Yeah, and even in teaching spiritual disciplines, I'm
learning and growing so muchbecause of the classroom that
we're in and we're comingtogether.
So uh we're we're made to we wegrow as individuals, but we're
not made to just grow and learnin isolation.
And so as we're together incommunity, that's one of the
(13:22):
helpful things.
And so, yeah, I mean, clearlythe scriptures say the the
church has many members becausewe are gifted in many ways for
ultimately pleasing God, makingdisciples of Jesus Christ.
Jim (13:34):
And I think one of your responsibility, my
responsibility as the pastors,teachers, preachers, is we got
to make sure uh that uh no oneuh no one is excluded.
There is no um uh non-importantperson in the body.
Jon (13:49):
That's right.
Amen.
Jim (13:50):
Because the first Corinthians 12 talks about the
wide the variety, like the thefoot, the hand, and so forth.
And we gotta be careful that uhthe more visible gifts are not
uh accentuated at the expense ofthe lesser ones.
Jon (14:03):
That's right.
Jim (14:04):
Yeah, which we need, we've got people here that are behind
the scenes that uh are justphenomenal using their area of
giftedness, and uh they're theyfind satisfaction in that.
We can't uh overemphasize themore visible gifts at the
expense of those that are not.
Jon (14:19):
I 100% agree with you because uh and I would also say
because of just in our positionsand the exercising of visible
gifts, that comes with such anadded weight.
I didn't ask for this, I didn'tsign up for this.
I didn't I didn't say, like,God, you know, make me a pastor.
(14:42):
I mean, if I get bitten to mybackstory, I was kind of like uh
Yeah, I know I can relate tothat.
Let's just be very clear aboutthat.
Some of these come with a aweight of responsibility that
you know, you say, Man, wouldn'tit be nice to have that
invisible?
You know, like I just want toput my head down and when we are
(15:04):
operating within our giftednessas members of the church, our
service doesn't feel likesacrifice, our commitment isn't
drudgery.
I think about Jesus in theOlivet Discourse when he's
talking, you know, those thatwere hungry that fed his people,
those that were uh when theywere hungry, fed them, when they
were naked, you know, theyclothed them when they were in
prison, they visited them.
They were like, when did we dothese things to you?
(15:26):
Like, we're just we're justliving out our authentic
Christianity.
And he's like, To do to any ofmy brothers is to do unto me.
And they're like, We're justbeing servants.
You know, we're weren't like,hey, look at what I've done.
Very much so.
Here, all right, here's anotherpassage.
Uh Hebrews chapter 13, verse17.
(15:46):
Obey your leaders and submit tothem, for they are keeping
watch over your souls, as thosewho will have to give an
account.
Let them do this with joy, notwith groaning, for that would be
of no advantage to you.
A few observations to make fromthis one.
Leaders need to know who theirsheep are.
Sheep need to know who theirleaders are.
Does this mean that if somebodyshows up to the church that I'm
(16:10):
pastoring and they show up fortwo weeks, that I'm
automatically their leader?
And then they automaticallyneed to submit to me and that
I'm keeping a watch over theirsouls?
I would say no.
I'd say there there needs tobe, at least in this sense,
church membership helps us tounderstand who's in and who's
out.
Who am I responsible for?
And who do I have thatspiritual authority and
(16:33):
oversight of?
I can't, it's not, he's nottalking here about general
Christians all over the world,that if you're a pastor, you
have authority over allChristians.
No, you it has to be specific.
Like if somebody's a member ofa church down the road and they
come to me, I have no authorityin their life.
I can give them some biblicalcounsel and maybe send them, you
(16:54):
know, help them along theirway.
This I probably wouldn't sendthem back to their pastor.
Clearly, to have a leader meansto have a congregation.
Jim (17:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that um what happens uhpeople will will come and for
there's no formal m churchmembership, uh it's so loose
that people don't feelaccountable, nor do we uh feel
like we have any type ofrelationship with them because
they may come for two weeks andthen you never see them again.
So you've got to be carefulthat we don't take ownership of
uh of sheep that they may noteven be sheep.
(17:23):
The scripture it says, for theyare keeping watch over your
souls.
So could keep watch over theirsouls, I need to know the state
of their souls.
Do they need do they need to besaved or do they need to be
discipled?
And you can't know that in amatter of just a couple weeks.
So what you've ins emphasizedhere with uh with with a new
membership class and and uh andregenerate membership, sure, and
(17:45):
that's an important partbecause I can't keep watch over
their souls unless I know theirsouls, and you can't know that
in a short period of time.
Jon (17:51):
The church membership is is very much reciprocal in that we
receive and we give, we giveand we receive, we're fed and we
feed, um, we're served and weserve.
And that's again just the wholecycle of the body working
together for the glory of Jesus.
So I think these are even thesefour passages lay a pretty
solid biblical foundation.
(18:11):
We could look at more, but uhjust to kind of move along with
our conversation, think aboutsome advantages.
What are the positives?
I don't want to talk about thenegatives of why you should, but
like what is what would compela person?
What's a positive thing thatcompels someone to say, I do
want to be a church member?
I think of four, and we couldtalk through all four of these,
(18:34):
but belonging, accountability,ministry, and mission.
And certainly you could come upwith a bunch of other ones, but
just at a high level, these arepositive things that are in the
life that that can be in theregular rhythm in life of a
believer who is a member of alocal church.
(18:56):
So let's talk a little bitabout belonging.
We were made for relationships.
It's not good that man shouldbe alone.
God says that companionship,but belonging to some something
and something bigger thanourselves, local church
membership, that's where it isworked out and lived out.
Jim (19:16):
Yeah, and I think I think when you look at the the fact
that we are family, that God insalvation has formed a forever
family that he wants thatfleshed out in this life with
the anticipation of eternitytogether.
And when we stress that this isa family, it really provides
safety, it provides uh comfort,it provides mutual help.
(19:38):
If we're developing like weshould as a church in a family
context, then I'm gonna haverelationships where I wouldn't
hesitate at two o'clock in themorning when life is falling
apart, that I would pick up aphone and call someone because I
know they'd be there.
Jon (19:52):
And the reality is family life sometimes gets messy.
Very conflict.
What belonging does in localchurch membership, it helps us
to be able to work throughsometimes messiness, our own
messiness, maybe the messinessof someone else working through
and navigating conflict in a waythat like we don't just say,
(20:12):
well, off to the next one.
Jim (20:14):
I think there's very few reasons to leave uh a local
church if you understand thebelonging, because you don't I
don't leave my physical familybecause it gets messy.
Why would I do that to theeternal family?
Jon (20:25):
Yeah.
And so belonging gives us aplace where we call home and we
know that we are loved and wecan love.
The healthy church is a placewhere people can be transparent
and vulnerable, be loved, beencouraged.
Again, it's something that'sextremely valuable that we need
in this life.
If we are uncomfortable withthe people of God in this life,
(20:49):
why do we assume that in thelife to come it's gonna be
great?
Oh, because it's without sin?
We need to start getting readyfor eternity today.
Jim (20:56):
Well, and I think that the the messiness is also the
uncomfortableness of beingcorrected.
Well, that that's the next one,accountability.
Yeah, accountability.
Jon (21:04):
Accountability.
This is a positive.
If you are wanting to walk inthe light, that's correct.
If you are somebody that'strying to conceal yourself in
the darkness, well, I don'tthink you you shouldn't be a
church member, right?
First John makes that veryclear.
That's true.
That if you walk in darkness,you have no fellowship.
So accountability is abeautiful and wonderful thing.
(21:25):
When it's done according toscripture, with the heart for
caring for others.
When accountability turns intosurveillance, nobody wants that.
That's right.
That's right.
Whatever Christian you are,nobody's wanting that.
But somebody that's gonna, youknow, make sure that I'm, you
know, loving my wife well.
How's your marriage, John?
I want to be asked thosequestions because I want to ask
(21:46):
those questions, not not tojust, you know, surveil someone,
but from someone who's askingme those things from a heart
that says, I care about you asmy brother, and I want to help
you follow Jesus better.
That's the motivation foraccountability.
Jim (22:00):
Well, you you need that.
And much as we don't like itbecause we we we've still got
some pride issues.
Um, James would tell us what isthe the most devastating of
deception.
It's not satanic, it'sself-deception.
He said, be doers of the word,you're not hearers only,
deceiving yourselves.
And I think accountability willallow us to avoid the
(22:21):
self-deception because we're inthose relationships.
I know that we're not all goingto be so close.
I mean, Jesus had differentcircles of the disciples, but
it's important that we havethose accountability
relationships.
And like you said, it's not forsurveillance, it's for uh it's
for the mutual encouragement andgrowth of uh of the body and
individual members of the world.
Jon (22:42):
We want to be a church that is growing corporately into the
likeness of Jesus, and we cando that by being accountable to
one another.
And that's what churchmembership really is.
A part of it is accountability.
All right, ministry.
Here's another one.
Membership isn't just aboutgetting benefits of belonging
and accountability, it's alsoabout serving.
So, how how do we help peopleget into positions of serving,
(23:04):
maybe to discover theirspiritual gifts, so that as
we've talked about in Romans andin the Corinthian letter, first
Corinthians, how do we helppeople get into positions where
they can thrive?
Jim (23:15):
Well, I I think our responsibility is um is to
prayerfully as a leadership teamuh create opportunities to fall
in line with our vision of uhof the Great Commission and the
Great Commandment is createopportunities.
And even in our um ourmembership classes uh to regular
and our quarterly meetings, weshould regularly be promoting
(23:37):
and and letting people know thatthere are opportunities.
These opportunities exist, andalso that by observation of
people, uh we shouldindividually uh approach people.
But you know what?
Have you ever considered uhthis area of service?
Of uh watch your faithfulness,and you know, I've seen you
interact with this, maybe thiswould be something you might
want to consider.
Um so I think we as leaders wegot to be constantly on
(23:57):
awareness of where people mightfit in, so to speak, and then
and have them test the waters,so to speak.
Jon (24:03):
And so yeah, opportunities.
Jim (24:05):
We we need to create opportunities for them.
Jon (24:07):
And oftentimes I think where our passions and desires
lie is where God's gifted us to.
Sure.
You know, obviously sanctifieddesires, sanctified motive in
that, and uh those are importantareas which we can serve.
Local church membership allowsfor the expression of service
and ministry that you I mean,you can get in the pair church
(24:27):
and get it uh elsewhere, butplan A of God's plan through the
gospel is to build a church.
I mean, Jesus said, I willbuild my church and the gates of
hell will not prevail againstit.
This is the plan, this is theoutflow of the gospel.
Jesus gives the mission, thegreat commission, and what do
the apostles do?
They go and plant churches,they go and evangelize and they
(24:49):
and they create localassemblies.
And this was the whole missionof the first century.
What's really cool is thatthrough through church
membership, in a sense, we lockarms with the generation that
preceded us, who locked armswith the generation that
preceded, and we go all the wayback in this continual mission
of the church, back to theapostles.
Jim (25:10):
Yeah, we're standing on the shoulders of those who've gone
before us.
I giants.
Yeah, giants.
And what you've what you'vesaid numerous times here is true
is we got to be careful that inour seeking to get people to
serve uh is not to have themequate their spirituality to
their flurry of activity inservice.
And that's why we won't letpeople do multiple, many things.
(25:31):
We will restrict them becauseuh I think Dr.
Martin Lloyd Jones said onetime, he says, uh one of the
worst things you can do for anew convert is tell them to get
busy.
Uh they need to s they need tosettle in, they need to learn,
they need to grow.
And I'm not saying no service,but what I'm saying is let's
don't just get them into aflurry of activities where it's
always output and there's noinput.
(25:52):
And so we we've done a goodjob, I believe, uh of
restricting people.
Jon (25:56):
Limit limiting the Marthas and cultivating the martyrs.
Jim (25:59):
Absolutely.
Jon (25:59):
That that's the illustration it should be.
And uh we have a heart toserve, we love to serve, we love
to be about busy about thekingdom work.
Um but as we as we output, weneed input as well.
Being a member of a localchurch connects you to the
mission of the church.
Jim (26:14):
Absolutely.
Jon (26:15):
Of making disciples.
And I think it's one of themost healthy expressions that we
can make as as believers.
Jim (26:22):
One thing about your gift that you said about giftedness
and accountability and ministry,uh, we gotta make sure, and I
believe we're striving to dothat, is cultivate in the church
that Christianity is a uh aparticipant sport, so to speak.
It's not spectator.
We don't come to to set, wecome to participate.
And that participation has wideuh ranges of expressions, but
(26:46):
we don't we're not passiveChristians in the local church.
And uh we all have a role, andour responsibility is to help
people fit into their roles.
Jon (26:55):
Okay, so let's talk about just briefly here living out
church membership.
A couple questions for you,just personally, not as a
pastor, but as a Christianthroughout the the course of
your life.
How has belonging to committingyourself to a local assembly,
how has that affected your walkwith Christ?
Jim (27:16):
Well, I I think multiple ways.
I was having this conversationwith someone the other night.
There was a question aboutchurch membership, and uh I
said, what it's done for me,because you remember from our
last time is that I was I was ona ship and I was an associated
with a church and the churchnever sought me and I never
sought the church and all waswell.
Well, all wasn't well.
And uh what happened to with mein church membership is I saw
(27:40):
that that I was able to seethese are my people and I am
their people.
Uh and so it created this realspirit of intimacy that why
would I want to hurt or whywould I want to do anything to
bring uh disrepute to the to thecause of Christ?
So it really developed withinme membership is that these are
(28:03):
my people.
I have committed to thesepeople through thick and thin,
you know, just like a marriageand through thicker thin.
Now I understand Godprovidentially moves us and
things like that.
But one thing it has that, itit created within me this desire
uh to publicly uh acknowledgethat these are my people.
And the other thing is that umit it gave me a real focused
(28:25):
opportunity to to serve uhalongside other Christians in
the work of the mission.
I don't believe there'sanything of greater joy than to
co-labor with someone in thework of the gospel.
I mean that that is such athrilling thing, and you don't
you can't get that individually,you can't get live uh had that
(28:45):
living the Christian life Jesusand me.
It just doesn't work.
You need so uh the intimacy ofbelonging, and these are my
people.
Secondly, opportunity to to beabout the mission of the church
together.
It's lonely if you try to go byyourself and it's discouraging.
The church provides theopportunity uh for us to uh lock
arms and to be together in thein the great text.
Jon (29:07):
We've heard the illustration, I'm sure it's gone
through so many differentchanges, where you have you have
a fire that's burning.
You've got your logs in thefire.
Yeah.
And as if you were to remove alog or a or a burning coal from
that fire and put it to theside, it's just a matter of time
(29:28):
before that coal goes out.
The fire that is is gonna keepgoing, but that one piece is no
longer lit.
And I think about churchmembership in a way of where we
got all of our sticks in thefire, and this is where we are
all together because as we aretogether, we are better
together.
That's right, we are strongertogether, we can accomplish more
(29:50):
for the kingdom of Godtogether, and we keep the fire
going.
And I I need that, I need thatas a local church member to be
connected to the fire.
Because if I'm isolated, I knowmy own heart.
Jim (30:04):
Well, you're clo you're quoting Solomon in Ecclesiastes
4.
Two are better than one.
You know, when when you fall,who's gonna be there to pick you
up?
So that's part of it too.
Jon (30:12):
All right.
What encouragement would yougive to someone right now who
might be listening and say, youknow, I've thought about church
membership.
I I've kind of been dancingaround on this, or you know, I'm
kind of in between churchesright now.
What positive good word wouldyou give to somebody uh
concerning this subject ofchurch membership?
Jim (30:32):
Find a place that you're aligned up with scripturally,
plant yourself and blossom.
Yes.
I mean, plant yourself andblossom.
Jon (30:41):
But I would also say to an individual, if you find a
perfect church, don't join it.
Jim (30:45):
Because you'll ruin it.
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
So and if if you came here andyou think it's perfect, just say
you're six weeks and you'llfind out.
Uh so I would I would tell theperson, it's just, I said, don't
be nomadic.
I said, don't be, don't, don'tbe a hopper.
Go to a place and plantyourself, go deep into roots, be
involved in the mission.
(31:06):
When the church is doing thatwith his people, I love what
Acts 9 says, 931.
So the church throughout allJudea and Galilee and Samaria
had peace and was being built upand walking in the fear of the
Lord and in the comfort of theHoly Spirit, it multiplied.
That's right.
So I would tell that person,you want to be in an exciting
place, plant yourself, uh, getinvolved, grow, plant roots,
(31:30):
bear fruit, and enjoy theChristian life in a strong
biblical-based community.
Jon (31:35):
That's great.
Because belonging to a localchurch isn't about checking a
box.
It's about living out yourChristian life in community with
one another.
Jim (31:44):
Well, there's fifty over fifty one another commands.
Uh, you have to have some placeto obey them, and the church is
the place that God has ordainedit to be.
And and what a great promise isthat the Lord would build his
church.
That's right.
And that he has promised, aswe've been studying the
revelation on some Sundaynights, is that he walks among
his candlesticks.
So God takes great delight inmeeting with his people, uh,
(32:08):
among his people when we gatherand being the church.
Jon (32:12):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
And it's a be it's a beautifulthing.
Just again, I want to reiteratethe church is not perfect, but
it is the bride for whom Christdied.
Jesus loved the church so muchthat he gave his life for her.
Our expression as Jesus' peopleis to love his bride as he
does.
And so I don't believe you canbe a healthy Christian and hate
(32:35):
the church.
Jim (32:36):
Or you could, I agree with that wholeheartedly, and you
cannot be a healthy Christianand not be involved in the
things we talked about in thelocal church.
And if uh yeah, and becausethere is no perfect church, find
you a really good one and andand just immerse yourself in it.
Jon (32:53):
Sure.
All right.
Well, thanks for joining meagain.
Jim (32:56):
Love having conversations with you.
It was awesome, and uh, I'll behappy to join you anytime you'd
like.
All right.
All right.
Jon (33:01):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions,especially about church
membership, what that lookslike, wherever you are and
wherever you're listening from,you can always reach out at
questions at pleasinggodpodcast.org.
I would love to hear from you,and I would answer any questions
that you might have.
And I want you to remember 1Thessalonians 4 3, this is the
(33:22):
will of God, yoursanctification.
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