September 26, 2025 • 32 mins
What sustains a pastor through decades of ministry in one church? In this deeply personal conversation, Jonathan Sole interviews his father, Pastor Jim Sole, about his remarkable 23-year journey leading Quinnessett Baptist Church.
The conversation traces Pastor Jim's unlikely path from Navy sailor to church leader, beginning with his conversion at age 21 aboard a destroyer in the Mediterranean Sea. Unlike traditional seminary routes, his ministerial formation happened organically through Navy service, church involvement, and Bible institute studies. Most powerfully, we witness how meaningful discipleship shaped his ministry philosophy—the quiet sailor who "never preached a sermon" but "loved my soul" became his model for authentic spiritual leadership.
With refreshing candor, Pastor Jim addresses the challenges every minister faces. "You can't avoid sheep bites, but you can keep them from getting infected," he notes, sharing wisdom about handling criticism without becoming bitter. Equally insightful is his warning about praise: "Praise can be a well-intended thing that can ruin a man" when ministers become dependent on affirmation rather than finding satisfaction in faithful service.
The discussion reveals how ministry priorities evolve with experience. Looking back, Pastor Jim wishes he'd spent more time in prayer and intercession, especially during difficult seasons. Yet his greatest joy has been witnessing cultural transformation as the church shifted from being perceived as "exclusive and stuffy" to becoming known for community engagement and care.
Perhaps most remarkable is the successful father-son leadership transition now underway—a rarity in church settings. As Pastor Jim prepares to pass the baton completely, he expresses confidence that the church stands poised for even greater community impact under his son's leadership.
Want to hear more? Join us for our next episode as we continue exploring discipleship within the local church context and discuss encouragement for the next generation of ministry leaders.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically, and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell,and on this episode, I have the
uh great privilege to welcome uhmy guest, my pastor, a mentor,
(00:32):
and my father.
So, Pastor Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Well, thank you, Jonathan.
It's a privilege to be here, notonly as your father, but as your
colleague and um your co-laborerhere in our church.
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Oh, yeah, it's awesome.
Um so what I want to do is uh Ireally want to kind of have like
an interview with you and talkuh about your ministry and your
ministry experience.
Uh you've served faithfully foroh twenty three, twenty-four
(01:04):
years.
That's right, we're finishing uptwenty-three years here at
Quinnesset.
Yeah, 23 years in one location.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
In one place, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
So, yes, so for this episode, uh I want to focus on
lessons from the years ofpastoral ministry, and kind of
sit back and uh hopefully forlisteners, they can glean some
some wisdom from yourexperience, dad.
Uh, the uh the highs and thelows and just everything that
(01:37):
goes into serving faithfullyover the long haul.
And so I've got some questionsfor you, maybe some categories
we can think through, butultimately just a free-flowing
kind of conversation.
Uh, you can share a little bitabout your heart and also
reflect, too, on just God'sfaithfulness, which it's I mean,
(01:58):
truly, any type of sustainedlongevity in one place, uh I
must be attributed to thefaithfulness of God.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
Oh, no, no question, Jonathan.
It has to be.
If there isn't a sense of divineconstraint or divine calling,
then uh no man would besustained in this.
He would leave uh not long intoit because of the difficulties
associated with it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Wait, are you saying are you saying pastoral ministry
is hard?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Uh I I would say that uh when you go into
pastoral ministry, uh what youthink it is is not what it will
be.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
Oh, the honeymoon phase?
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah, there is a uh there's a lot of this uh starry
eye that's uh you're excitedabout it, uh, and then uh you go
through a honeymoon phase andthen you start getting into the
trenches, and it gets extremelydifficult.
And I think as you look at it uhas you go in, you think you're
you're somewhat equipped, butyou soon find out uh who is
(02:52):
sufficient for these type ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
You know, you don't know what you don't know until
it comes across, and you're andyou're like, I wasn't ready for
that.
Or like or sometimes, yes, greatprinciples and examples in the
Bibles, but sometimes you'refacing something and you just
can't go to like a scripture andverse and say, boom, this is
what I have to do right now.
There's wisdom, prudence,judgment calls that have to be
(03:16):
made at times.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
And it comes, it comes uh through many failures
and many um years of experience.
Uh, as I look at 23 years here,um, I would like to go back and
restart it based on what I knownow, uh, and go back and redo a
lot of things because I see howpatient God has been with me,
how good he's been with me, andhow he's blessed despite me, uh,
(03:40):
not because of any great thingsI've done, but because he's such
a great God who loves his churchfar more than I do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
You know, I think it's you touch on a good point
there, too.
Um I think we all at some pointsin our lives would say, if I
could just hop into that timemachine, bring my knowledge and
experience of the man that I amnow, and apply that to the man I
was early on, what different,you know, oh man, what a world
difference that could have made.
(04:08):
And but we know we can't dothat.
So one of the things that we cando is have a conversation like
this one that well, whether soyou might not be able to get
into your time machine, but youcan pass down the wisdom so that
the rising generation of menmaybe considering ministry or
early on in the ministry canstill glean from your
(04:28):
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
And I think that's where we can look back, and not
with regrets, but we can lookback and see all the things that
we went through and to shape usas where we are today.
And now we can take young men uhwho uh sense a call and we can
help them and and maybe eventeach them in the early stages
to avoid some of the things thatwe uh experienced.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Hey, I stepped on this landmine, don't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
So 23 years in Quidnessa, and we've been
serving together in ministry forover a decade as well.
So half your time had been thatthorn in your flesh.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Well, I wouldn't say thorn in the flesh.
I mean, there were uh it itcertainly is a unique uh
experience for a father and son,uh, because a lot of times it
just doesn't work.
Uh God has allowed us to allowit to work.
It hasn't uh been always easy,and but yet he has allowed us to
have a same vision, have a samepassion for making disciples,
(05:30):
seeing the lost come to Jesus.
And so in that in that uhcontext, it's been very good and
very encouraging to co-laborwith you, not only as my son,
but as what I see as a risingstar, and to see that uh how God
uniquely equips people differentways.
Uh as you know, I've I've hadtwo careers.
(05:52):
Uh I spent 24 years in activeduty in the Navy, United States
Navy, and I actually gotconverted on a warship in the
Mediterranean Sea.
And my first couple of years asa Christian, um, the church
never sought me, and I neversought the church.
And so I didn't see theimportance of the church.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Oh, yeah, okay, getting saved kind of through
outreach on a ship, notnecessarily through the context
of a local church.
Parachurch, so I mean for atbest.
So let's talk about that kind offirst category, and you know,
the share with us kind of andfor our listeners your call to
ministry, how that came to be.
You got you got saved on adestroyer in the Mediterranean,
(06:32):
and you became a fanaticimmediately.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I I did.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
How much of that is just your personality, too?
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Well, I I think it was largely in part is because
of the man that God used uh todraw me to Christ.
Is this man was an introvert?
He never preached a sermon inhis life, um, very quiet and
very reserved, but he loved mysoul.
Uh he he really took an interestin me, and I watched that over a
period of time, and he earned ahearing.
(07:01):
Uh, when he came to me with thegospel after a few months on
deployment, uh, I was willing tolisten to him.
And to me, that stuck with me asone of the great things to carry
over into pastoral ministry isto have a love for souls, to
really love the lost and to havean interest in the soul.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
So, time time stamp, okay.
You're you're saved when you'rein your early 20s?
I'm 21.
21 years old.
Um it's interesting, my storykind of everything turned around
for me at 21, too.
Um and how long from coming toknow Christ and really just
starting to cut your teeth?
What is the Bible?
How do I from from that pointtill you started to sense maybe
(07:44):
uh this called aspiration?
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Um what how long a two year and uh what initially
after I was converted, uh thisman um we pulled into Naples,
Italy, took me to a Christianservices center and bought me my
first Bible.
Okay, and he showed me how toread the Bible.
King James Version.
And it certainly was a KingJames Version and memorized my
first verse, uh Hebrews 10 23,let us hold fast our confession
(08:11):
of faith without wavering, forhe is faithful to the promised.
And and he showed me, so at theearly stage, I knew the
importance of one-on-one ofpersonal relationship
discipleship, because this mandid this to me, and then yeah,
six months uh after that he wasgone, and uh I got plugged into
a church where I met your yourmother.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
Okay, and where where so this you're not that's
about 18 months after myconversion.
Okay, you're not in Italy oranything.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Not I'm now in Virginia, okay, and I've gone to
Roanoke, Virginia, my firstshore station.
Okay, and so here I am, and uh Ihad no no aspirations of being a
pastor or anything.
I had a desire to grow.
Yes.
Uh I knew nothing about thechurch, and so I met another
sailor uh who took me under hiswing as a young believer, and uh
(09:01):
he used to um do services forthe Navy and Marine Corps
reserves at the station I wasat.
And so I would help him.
I would set up chairs, I wouldput hymn books out, and he did
the preaching.
Um I never once even consideredthat.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
And um was there something like did you did you
enjoy preaching?
I never preached prior to.
Did you enjoy listening topreaching?
I did.
Because some people because somepeople uh it's not their number
one thing, right?
And uh obviously us, we're we'repastors, we're preachers.
Like uh you you're not a goodpreacher if you don't love good
(09:38):
preaching.
I agree with that.
And so so yes.
I know one of the things for meum in just the kind of rise into
ministry is that I fell in lovewith preaching, not not the act
of preaching, but like when Iwould hear really good preaching
and and good sermons, and like Ifelt like something was like it
it like lit a fire in my soul abit.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
It did for me too.
When I first uh got there, Istarted listening to um some
some fundamentalist.
I started listening to uh theSword of the Lord guys, and I
used to get cassette tapes ofJack Hiles, and I had hundreds
of those tapes and listened tothose.
But this man uh he told me oneFriday, and I never ever wanted
to speak in front of people.
(10:19):
I was always scared, afraid ofthat.
And so he told me that I wasgonna preach that Sunday, and
uh, it was Friday, and I said,That's not gonna happen.
And he says, uh, if you don'tpreach, there'll be no service,
and there's gonna be about 60people in this room.
So he threw you and so he threwme into the fire, and uh, I
said, I can't do this.
He goes, then we won't have aservice.
So he really uh he he put me ina in a very awkward position.
(10:40):
So I remember scrambling aroundSaturday in Psalm 8, and I had
no idea.
I don't know anything aboutoutlies, I know nothing.
Psalm 8.
You know, it's a uh, you know,how excellent is thy name and
all the earth.
And so I remember uh sweatypalms, sweaty armpits, standing
up in front of all these people,and I didn't know at that time
(11:00):
that people took notes uh whenthey listened to preaching.
And in the front row, there wasuh there were six individuals
there.
These were older men, and theywere enrolled in Liberty
University in the seminary, andthey had these uh they had these
these clipboards, and I thoughtthey were there to critique me.
I had no idea what the what thewho these men were.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Were you sweating as he said?
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
And there was one individual who had he'd come out
of the business world, he wasolder, and uh I had known him a
little bit, and he was going tobe a pastor, and they all sat
there and I fumbled through thissermon for 20 minutes or so, and
then after it was over, uh hehad wrote uh written me a
personal note and he gave it tome afterwards and just walked
away.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
And I remember taking that note, I opened it
up, and it's it said, Jim, Godhas given you a gift that if you
don't use it for his church, thechurch will be at lost.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
I stuck with you.
And I thought, wow.
And so I then had opportunities,and then I went back to sea duty
and I had all kinds ofopportunities on the ship?
I did.
I was running Protestant uhservices every week, I was
preaching every week, I wasorchestrating uh Bible studies
every week.
Uh I took a Bible institute atour church, I went through that
for an education purposes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
Well, Bible Institutes and churches are a
good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
They are.
We're doing that here.
You've instrumented in our ourchurch, and it's uh it's a
really good thing.
We need those type of things.
And so the Bible institute wasvery fundamental uh in my growth
because they we had uhprofessors from Liberty
University were coming over toour church and teaching that on
a Monday night.
So, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Um that was helpful to you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
Doctrines, New Testament survey, Old Testament
survey.
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
Because you had you hadn't gone to Bible college,
Bible school, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
I'd only been a Christian for two years.
SPEAKER_01 (12:44):
So you were you were the guy that was on fire for the
Lord, read your Bible a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
And you were in knowledge.
And so after that, I went backto see and I enrolled uh online
Liberty University in school, myundergraduate work.
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
Okay, so that is this the is this the point where
you you've you're starting tosay, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
I started to get a stirring then.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
That I need to where that whatever God's timeline is
for me, but this was when you'relike, I believe that uh God's
calling me to be a pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yes, that's right, Jonathan.
And I and your mother was wasalso because she was a perfect
uh pastor's wife to be.
Uh she was the assistant uhpastor secretary, she was the
apple, uh Apple the I, thesenior pastor, and so she was uh
she was very well reallyequipped for this.
And so we talked about it.
Was she serving in ministrybefore you?
We actually served togetherbefore we got married in Iwana
(13:36):
in our church.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yeah, but she was in the church serving when you met
her.
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
She was teaching in the uh Christian high school
business, she was also thesecretary of the assistant
pastor, plus she was uh, youknow, was was really an adopted
daughter for that.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Can it's a different subject altogether, but uh God,
I truly believe God giftspastors' wives to the church as
well.
Absolutely.
Not not um Herschel York said itin his Pastor Well podcast, um,
which was really helpful to me,but when talking about the the
pastor and his wife, he saysshe's not called to the
ministry, or she's not called tothe job, but she's called to the
(14:11):
life.
Absolutely.
And yeah, that's a wholedifferent thing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
But okay, so but I would caution young men if
they're gonna think they're thethe God is calling them and
they're married, uh they bettergo slow and they better make
sure that their wife, though shemay not, they won't know what
it's get what initially whatit's going to be like, but she
has to be very supportive and bewilling to uh commit to that
type of life.
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
Yeah, oh yeah, I know.
I can remember the conversationwith Caitlin before we got
married, and I just said, youknow, uh I'm I wasn't in
pastoral ministry, but it waspretty clear that my life was
going into the trajectory ofvocational ministry, and
whatever that I don't know, I'mgonna be a missionary, I'm gonna
be a teacher, I don't know, butI knew that my life was given
(14:54):
over to the hopefully the localchurch that service the Lord.
So we had that conversation, andand I think both of us then,
young in our mid-20s, she was alittle younger, but it felt like
we were signing a blank checktogether.
That's right.
And it's like she but she said,I'm all in.
And to this day, she's never notbeen.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
She's not, and she is a she's a great pastor's uh
wife, and you know, get back tohow this continued to evolve.
I wanted to be involved in inlike that man did with me.
I wanted to see young men cometo Christ, I wanted to see
sailors come to Christ, Iwanted, and I have I had
opportunities to preach.
And then when we moved to RhodeIsland, uh we started coming to
(15:32):
Quinnesset when I was still inthe Navy, and Pastor John
Burnett.
Okay, he gave me all kinds ofopportunities to serve.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
And uh that's when you started really kind of
honing in on this.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
That's right, that's right, Jonathan.
I sensed that I was going to bea pastor someday.
It was the desire I had, uh, Ididn't know where, I didn't know
how, and frankly, I didn'treally I didn't really hone in
on that.
I saw the Navy, I saw it as areal uh um um equipping ground
for me because I had all kindsof opportunities to serve.
(16:08):
And so it was unique in thesense that I didn't go the
traditional, you know, seminaryroute.
I mean, I finished myundergraduate work, I I enrolled
in seminary for for 18 hours,but I I saw that my path in the
Navy, and because of myseniority, I was getting to
interact and develop peopleskills that were instrumental in
the pastor.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Okay, and so you uh you did your your Navy career.
I did.
You retired from the Navy, uh,you tell the story that you
retired on a Friday, and then onthat Monday you were brought on
staff.
You had already kind of been, itwas clear that you were coming
on the staff at Quinnesset, andthat you were and it was very
much a transition.
Like when you came on, therewasn't like, oh, here's the
(16:49):
transition plan that we had.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
And I think it's important for your audience to
understand is that um I Ibelieve that you know God calls
a man and that the man has toallow that to percolate, so to
speak, and has to intensify towhere uh he can't do anything
else but that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Well, I think there's the you know, we see
precedent, 1 Timothy chapter 5,where Paul says basically, you
know, Timothy, don't be hasty inthe laying on of hands, the
appointing of elders.
Because like there has to be uhagain this this time of of and
process.
That's right.
(17:27):
And you you know, calls toministry are both internal,
external.
I mean, ultimately a church hasto call you.
Anyone who's called to theministry but not called by a
church, I mean, to pastoralministry, they're not called to
pastoral ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
I agree, and that's what happened at Quinesa is that
uh Pastor Barnett had given meopportunities to preach.
Um, people were affirminggiftedness, uh there, and they I
was active involved in thechurch, not that I was seeking a
position, it sought me.
Sure.
Uh they came after me to be theassistant, uh, and so all the
all that lined up where therewas an affirmation by the church
(18:05):
of giftedness, there was anaffirmation of character, there
was an affirmation ofeffectiveness, and so all those
things kind of aligned, which Ididn't seek.
And I think it's important thatall those things come to the
man.
Um and then it's affirmed by thebody, it's affirmed by the
leadership, and that kind of putit into play to where they
(18:25):
extended a call to me to come asthe assistant.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Great.
So you come on staff, uh, youyou uh it's been a couple years
as an assistant, and then uh youtake over as the the lead
pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Three years of the assistant, and then um you know
voted in as the senior, whichreally was the uh the only.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, you were you were you'redoing the solo pastor, rocking
the solo pastor thing, had tobuild up an elder board um from
that.
So if you were to reflect, say,from that time that you came in
and you, you know, you kind ofyou you were you were at the
helm, you know, you're the leadguy.
Uh what are maybe just a couplebig lessons that you think
(19:05):
you've learned over the longhaul uh that would be helpful to
someone who's thinking aboutministry or uh just just even
informing church members uh youknow of kind of a behind the
scenes with the pastors type ofthing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yes, I think uh uh as an as the assistant, um, you
know, transition uh from um fromfrom from an all-volunteer
service with the Department ofDefense into an all-volunteer
service in the church.
Uh that isn't seamless.
Um and I think that I had to toreally understand that you can
have a lot of strengths, uh, butyou gotta be careful that you
(19:41):
don't try to do spiritualministry in the strength of self
or in the strength of flesh.
Okay.
And I'm I I think I did some ofthat out of ignorance in the uh
in the assistant role.
Uh I saw that we needed change.
I saw we need a lot of uh uh alot of rudder changes, so to
speak, here because we were uh achurch that was in a maintenance
(20:02):
mode at best, if not dying, anduh and I saw the need uh for a
lot of change.
And I think I was a little bitimpatient at the at the pace of
change, but I also, because ofmy military background, I was
loyal to the chain of command.
And so I wasn't underminingleadership or trying to be
pushy, but I knew that we had tohave a sense of urgency, and I
(20:25):
think that contributed to um thechange of leadership.
I think it it contributed to theuh to the change.
And so when I got over as thesenior guy, um it was a uh it
was uh quite a cultural shockbecause I really thought I had
it figured out, but I quicklyrealized that this is way too
much for for uh a mortal man toeven attempt to do.
(20:47):
Yeah, for sure.
But you asked the question aboutwhat what I've learned when you
look back.
I look back and it wasformidable eight years, it was
four, four or five years, andum, you know, there was uh there
was many challenges.
There was many, one of thechallenges of uh you know
preaching uh two times on aSunday, uh plus teaching in
(21:08):
Sunday school on a Sunday.
So there was this three times,uh, and then all the demands of
people, because people want, andin some ways, we were a climate
of an old church with withalmost a a sense of the the
social aspect of the church inthe community.
And for instance, if if someonevisited someone in a hospital
(21:31):
and it wasn't the pastor, itdidn't count.
And so that was a lot ofpressure that placed upon me.
And I I wanted to really getinvolved in people, but the
demands of preaching and eventhe demands of funerals, we had
an older congregation, as youknow, uh, I was very busy with
that.
Uh, one of the things duringthat phase there, um, I would go
(21:52):
back and what I would change isI would spend more time praying
and more time interceding.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Interceding, especially for the problems we
were facing, especially for thepeople that sadly uh were
sometimes uh um uh guilty ofsheep bites.
And so I I would spend more timeinterceding for the people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Talk talk a little bit about sheep bites, um, you
know, and that how can you givegood or some good wisdom or
counsel um because they're realuh and they hurt, and oftentimes
usually you don't get bit in theface, you get bit in the back,
right?
Or something.
(22:34):
And so uh because you don't seeit coming.
Um how how can someone pastorwell uh in the midst of what
we're calling sheep bites?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
Yeah, I I think that um you know Pastor Burnett told
me one time he says you can'tavoid sheep bites, but you can
keep them from getting infected.
And what he was referring to isdon't grow bitter, don't grow
bitter.
And uh and and it's it's easy todo is because a lot of times you
feel it's unwarranted.
(23:07):
Um and one thing with that iswhen the criticism comes, which
it does, uh, I had to learn,which I did not learn initially,
I had to learn to step back andbefore any type of impulsive
response, either internally oroutwardly, I had to ask the
question first, is there anytruth to the criticism?
And if there is, then I need tothank the Lord that this was
revealing something in me thatneeded to change, or if there
(23:31):
wasn't merit for it, then I needto let it go and just and and
not let it become infected.
So that that would I would tella young pastor or a young one
that you're gonna you're gonnahave your critics, uh, and
you're gonna have those thosetimes when your preaching is
criticized.
And you need to be very carefulthat you don't take that so
(23:52):
personal that you forget thatyou're dealing with for the most
part, you're dealing with God'ssheep, and sheep are at
different stages of growth anddifferent maturity level, and
Jesus bears with them all.
And we have to do that as well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
And yeah, and some I mean, handling criticism is just
a part it's a part of it's thenature of what we do.
We stand up in front of thepeople, we lead from the front,
um we are the target ofcriticism.
And so, yeah, definitely ButI've got brothers and sisters in
my life that give me criticismand I love it.
(24:26):
Um because I know where theirheart is.
And these are these are thethese are the people that are
sharpening me.
And I I welcome it.
I had someone the other daysaid, Hey, I've I've got a
criticism for you, and I waslike, Oh no.
And they went to explain it tome.
And I was like, That'scriticism.
I was like, if that's criticism,let me have it all the time.
(24:48):
And it was just like, hey, Ithink you you said this, but
here's a bit here's maybe abetter way that this could be
done.
I was like, that is so muchbetter.
Keep that coming.
You know, uh Mark Dever talksabout when they do like service
review and stuff, um, somethingI've listened to, that one of
the things they try to modelwell is the giving of giving
(25:08):
godly criticism well, receivinggodly criticism well.
Um receiving positive criticismwell, and receiving negative
criticism well, but ultimatelyto do it in a godly way.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
Um I think if you look if if if if you had to
corner me to just list just acouple things that young pastors
need to be constantly aware ofis number one, how you respond
to criticism, and secondly, howyou handle praise.
Uh because praise can praise canbe a very it can be a
well-intended thing that canruin a man.
Um because then if you startlooking for the praise and you
(25:43):
start waiting for the person tosay how good that sermon was or
how good this was, next thingyou know, when that dries up, uh
you're gonna find yourselfreally languishing in a sense of
fulfillment and a sense ofsatisfaction because you're not
getting that affirmation.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yeah, who's no one's patting me on the back anymore?
They're getting just they'regetting used to my preaching.
That's right.
Oh, they think more sermons areaverage now, like until you get
a new person that comes in andthey're like, ah, you know, but
the person that praises you thisSunday may be the one that uh
that bite you uh with a sheepbite next week.
Yeah, don't get too high on thepraise, don't get too low on the
criticism.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
You want to be uh the same in season, out of
season, with criticism, withpraise.
Uh you have to have that becauseyour people need to see a
consistency in us.
Uh we they have to see.
I told someone one time uh thatone of the things about being a
pastor is that you always haveto be on your A game.
And uh and and that isn't beinga hypocrite.
The fact is you gotta be steadybecause your people need to see
(26:44):
steady.
I'm a very a very strongadvocate, is that we grow our
own staff.
We've done that here.
Uh I believe growing your ownpastors, growing your own staff
is so important because it givesthe sheep that sense of security
and safety.
I think longevity and leadershipis very important.
I think if anything, though Ihaven't been the perfect kind of
(27:04):
pastor, what I have been thoughis able to establish kind of a
steadiness throughout the years.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
Oh yeah, 100%.
Um I think in many ways you'rethe man in this place to start
to um bring about positivechange holes in the ship and do
(27:33):
good work um becausehistorically uh you're the
second longest tenured pastor.
And there's a reason why achurch at 200 years old isn't
wasn't for a long time seeinglong-tenured pastors.
And that has a lot to do withthe culture of a church.
And churches church cultureschange.
(27:55):
Um, and I think that yoursteadiness uh has contributed to
a positive cultural change inthe church.
Now, we are running out of time,and I'm loving this
conversation.
Um before and we should pick upand do a part two on this.
Uh, but before we do that, canyou share what your greatest joy
is if you reflect on yourministry?
(28:17):
What is like the highlight orthe or something that just
brings you great joy as youthink about your time in the
pastorate?
SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
I think two things is one is to see how our church
has changed from having areputation in the community as
being exclusive and stuffy, soto speak, to one of being caring
and outreach.
We have made a community impactuh in in the last ten or fifteen
years, and you know it becauseyou've been a part of that.
(28:46):
Our basketball ministry, ourclothing ministry, we have we
have impacted uh the communityin significant ways, which I
don't think we uh really realizehow wide that is.
And I think that's been it.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
And I've got ideas for stuff that even more that we
can do that I'm excited to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I just think that that'll be one thing is uh is I
think because I I can goanywhere in town and people
recognize me, hey, hey, you'rethe church ball pastor, you're
the and so and that's just onearea of it.
Is it and the funerals that I'vebeen able to do with all the
different funeral directordirectors, we have got a good
reputation as a church.
So that is one thing.
And the other thing is beingable to pass the baton, so to
(29:24):
speak, to you, and to know thatwe're in a good place, and as
much as uh, you know, it it'shard, um, but it's right.
And I'm I'm confident that weare we are in a in a very good
place to uh and uh to reallyimpact our community even more
and further.
And because I look around andall I see is a ton of young
(29:46):
people and kids.
Uh it wasn't like that when Igot here.
And it's very it's it'sthrilling to see that you know,
in nine or ten months that I'mgonna be able to uh you know to
uh officially just uh walk awayknowing that we're in a
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
Yeah, that's that's exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
I mean, it's my son.
I mean, how many times dofathers' sons not work and yet
probably more often than not?
Probably not.
Probably not.
But I think in this case, andour churches embrace that to
where uh it's it's healthy andit's good, and uh I'm pleased,
I'm pleased that the Lord hasallowed that to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Well you talk about you know healthy churches
develop and raise their leaders.
That's right.
I think I think there's merit tothat very much so.
Um and we talk also about thechurch being a hospital for
sinners.
And we do, we want to be, youknow, uh we don't want a
hospital with no patients,right?
No.
But at this other time sensetoo, uh I see the church as kind
(30:43):
of a teaching hospital where youhave certain you know, hospitals
that are caring for for thelost, the sick, the patients,
right?
Then you have other hospitalsthat are training doctors to
help care for the and my visionof the church is that we are
both, because pastors I thinkare truly developed and and and
(31:06):
they come into in the localchurch, and that way they can
have on-the-job experience inministry.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
And I think when you look at what the way our world
is really um uh unraveling, isthe church needs to be equipped
to handle some of these culturalchallenges as a trauma center
because it that's where we'reat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
And I think we could talk a little bit about that.
So on our next episode, we'llwe'll continue our conversation
um and we'll focus on theessentials of discipleship in
the local church.
We'll talk a little bit aboutNew Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
Yeah, I think so.
And one thing we might want todiscuss too is because we're
seeing that in our church, isthat uh there is a lot of uh
member-on-member ministryoccurring, shepherding each
other, which uh really isthrills us to see that
happening.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yep.
And so, yeah, let's talk aboutthose two things and then uh
we'll finish off with justencouragement for the next
generation.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Very good.
Thanks for uh having me today.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing
God Podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You could reach out at questionsat pleasing Godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians 4 3.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically, and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell,and on this episode, I have the
uh great privilege to welcome uhmy guest, my pastor, a mentor,
(00:32):
and my father.
So, Pastor Jim.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Well, thank you, Jonathan.
It's a privilege to be here, notonly as your father, but as your
colleague and um your co-laborerhere in our church.
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Oh, yeah, it's awesome.
Um so what I want to do is uh Ireally want to kind of have like
an interview with you and talkuh about your ministry and your
ministry experience.
Uh you've served faithfully foroh twenty three, twenty-four
(01:04):
years.
That's right, we're finishing uptwenty-three years here at
Quinnesset.
Yeah, 23 years in one location.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
In one place, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
So, yes, so for this episode, uh I want to focus on
lessons from the years ofpastoral ministry, and kind of
sit back and uh hopefully forlisteners, they can glean some
some wisdom from yourexperience, dad.
Uh, the uh the highs and thelows and just everything that
(01:37):
goes into serving faithfullyover the long haul.
And so I've got some questionsfor you, maybe some categories
we can think through, butultimately just a free-flowing
kind of conversation.
Uh, you can share a little bitabout your heart and also
reflect, too, on just God'sfaithfulness, which it's I mean,
(01:58):
truly, any type of sustainedlongevity in one place, uh I
must be attributed to thefaithfulness of God.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
Oh, no, no question, Jonathan.
It has to be.
If there isn't a sense of divineconstraint or divine calling,
then uh no man would besustained in this.
He would leave uh not long intoit because of the difficulties
associated with it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Wait, are you saying are you saying pastoral ministry
is hard?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Uh I I would say that uh when you go into
pastoral ministry, uh what youthink it is is not what it will
be.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
Oh, the honeymoon phase?
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yeah, there is a uh there's a lot of this uh starry
eye that's uh you're excitedabout it, uh, and then uh you go
through a honeymoon phase andthen you start getting into the
trenches, and it gets extremelydifficult.
And I think as you look at it uhas you go in, you think you're
you're somewhat equipped, butyou soon find out uh who is
(02:52):
sufficient for these type ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
You know, you don't know what you don't know until
it comes across, and you're andyou're like, I wasn't ready for
that.
Or like or sometimes, yes, greatprinciples and examples in the
Bibles, but sometimes you'refacing something and you just
can't go to like a scripture andverse and say, boom, this is
what I have to do right now.
There's wisdom, prudence,judgment calls that have to be
(03:16):
made at times.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
And it comes, it comes uh through many failures
and many um years of experience.
Uh, as I look at 23 years here,um, I would like to go back and
restart it based on what I knownow, uh, and go back and redo a
lot of things because I see howpatient God has been with me,
how good he's been with me, andhow he's blessed despite me, uh,
(03:40):
not because of any great thingsI've done, but because he's such
a great God who loves his churchfar more than I do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
You know, I think it's you touch on a good point
there, too.
Um I think we all at some pointsin our lives would say, if I
could just hop into that timemachine, bring my knowledge and
experience of the man that I amnow, and apply that to the man I
was early on, what different,you know, oh man, what a world
difference that could have made.
(04:08):
And but we know we can't dothat.
So one of the things that we cando is have a conversation like
this one that well, whether soyou might not be able to get
into your time machine, but youcan pass down the wisdom so that
the rising generation of menmaybe considering ministry or
early on in the ministry canstill glean from your
(04:28):
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
And I think that's where we can look back, and not
with regrets, but we can lookback and see all the things that
we went through and to shape usas where we are today.
And now we can take young men uhwho uh sense a call and we can
help them and and maybe eventeach them in the early stages
to avoid some of the things thatwe uh experienced.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Hey, I stepped on this landmine, don't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
So 23 years in Quidnessa, and we've been
serving together in ministry forover a decade as well.
So half your time had been thatthorn in your flesh.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Well, I wouldn't say thorn in the flesh.
I mean, there were uh it itcertainly is a unique uh
experience for a father and son,uh, because a lot of times it
just doesn't work.
Uh God has allowed us to allowit to work.
It hasn't uh been always easy,and but yet he has allowed us to
have a same vision, have a samepassion for making disciples,
(05:30):
seeing the lost come to Jesus.
And so in that in that uhcontext, it's been very good and
very encouraging to co-laborwith you, not only as my son,
but as what I see as a risingstar, and to see that uh how God
uniquely equips people differentways.
Uh as you know, I've I've hadtwo careers.
(05:52):
Uh I spent 24 years in activeduty in the Navy, United States
Navy, and I actually gotconverted on a warship in the
Mediterranean Sea.
And my first couple of years asa Christian, um, the church
never sought me, and I neversought the church.
And so I didn't see theimportance of the church.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Oh, yeah, okay, getting saved kind of through
outreach on a ship, notnecessarily through the context
of a local church.
Parachurch, so I mean for atbest.
So let's talk about that kind offirst category, and you know,
the share with us kind of andfor our listeners your call to
ministry, how that came to be.
You got you got saved on adestroyer in the Mediterranean,
(06:32):
and you became a fanaticimmediately.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I I did.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
How much of that is just your personality, too?
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Well, I I think it was largely in part is because
of the man that God used uh todraw me to Christ.
Is this man was an introvert?
He never preached a sermon inhis life, um, very quiet and
very reserved, but he loved mysoul.
Uh he he really took an interestin me, and I watched that over a
period of time, and he earned ahearing.
(07:01):
Uh, when he came to me with thegospel after a few months on
deployment, uh, I was willing tolisten to him.
And to me, that stuck with me asone of the great things to carry
over into pastoral ministry isto have a love for souls, to
really love the lost and to havean interest in the soul.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
So, time time stamp, okay.
You're you're saved when you'rein your early 20s?
I'm 21.
21 years old.
Um it's interesting, my storykind of everything turned around
for me at 21, too.
Um and how long from coming toknow Christ and really just
starting to cut your teeth?
What is the Bible?
How do I from from that pointtill you started to sense maybe
(07:44):
uh this called aspiration?
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Um what how long a two year and uh what initially
after I was converted, uh thisman um we pulled into Naples,
Italy, took me to a Christianservices center and bought me my
first Bible.
Okay, and he showed me how toread the Bible.
King James Version.
And it certainly was a KingJames Version and memorized my
first verse, uh Hebrews 10 23,let us hold fast our confession
(08:11):
of faith without wavering, forhe is faithful to the promised.
And and he showed me, so at theearly stage, I knew the
importance of one-on-one ofpersonal relationship
discipleship, because this mandid this to me, and then yeah,
six months uh after that he wasgone, and uh I got plugged into
a church where I met your yourmother.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
Okay, and where where so this you're not that's
about 18 months after myconversion.
Okay, you're not in Italy oranything.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Not I'm now in Virginia, okay, and I've gone to
Roanoke, Virginia, my firstshore station.
Okay, and so here I am, and uh Ihad no no aspirations of being a
pastor or anything.
I had a desire to grow.
Yes.
Uh I knew nothing about thechurch, and so I met another
sailor uh who took me under hiswing as a young believer, and uh
(09:01):
he used to um do services forthe Navy and Marine Corps
reserves at the station I wasat.
And so I would help him.
I would set up chairs, I wouldput hymn books out, and he did
the preaching.
Um I never once even consideredthat.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
And um was there something like did you did you
enjoy preaching?
I never preached prior to.
Did you enjoy listening topreaching?
I did.
Because some people because somepeople uh it's not their number
one thing, right?
And uh obviously us, we're we'repastors, we're preachers.
Like uh you you're not a goodpreacher if you don't love good
(09:38):
preaching.
I agree with that.
And so so yes.
I know one of the things for meum in just the kind of rise into
ministry is that I fell in lovewith preaching, not not the act
of preaching, but like when Iwould hear really good preaching
and and good sermons, and like Ifelt like something was like it
it like lit a fire in my soul abit.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
It did for me too.
When I first uh got there, Istarted listening to um some
some fundamentalist.
I started listening to uh theSword of the Lord guys, and I
used to get cassette tapes ofJack Hiles, and I had hundreds
of those tapes and listened tothose.
But this man uh he told me oneFriday, and I never ever wanted
to speak in front of people.
(10:19):
I was always scared, afraid ofthat.
And so he told me that I wasgonna preach that Sunday, and
uh, it was Friday, and I said,That's not gonna happen.
And he says, uh, if you don'tpreach, there'll be no service,
and there's gonna be about 60people in this room.
So he threw you and so he threwme into the fire, and uh, I
said, I can't do this.
He goes, then we won't have aservice.
So he really uh he he put me ina in a very awkward position.
(10:40):
So I remember scrambling aroundSaturday in Psalm 8, and I had
no idea.
I don't know anything aboutoutlies, I know nothing.
Psalm 8.
You know, it's a uh, you know,how excellent is thy name and
all the earth.
And so I remember uh sweatypalms, sweaty armpits, standing
up in front of all these people,and I didn't know at that time
(11:00):
that people took notes uh whenthey listened to preaching.
And in the front row, there wasuh there were six individuals
there.
These were older men, and theywere enrolled in Liberty
University in the seminary, andthey had these uh they had these
these clipboards, and I thoughtthey were there to critique me.
I had no idea what the what thewho these men were.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Were you sweating as he said?
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
And there was one individual who had he'd come out
of the business world, he wasolder, and uh I had known him a
little bit, and he was going tobe a pastor, and they all sat
there and I fumbled through thissermon for 20 minutes or so, and
then after it was over, uh hehad wrote uh written me a
personal note and he gave it tome afterwards and just walked
away.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
And I remember taking that note, I opened it
up, and it's it said, Jim, Godhas given you a gift that if you
don't use it for his church, thechurch will be at lost.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
I stuck with you.
And I thought, wow.
And so I then had opportunities,and then I went back to sea duty
and I had all kinds ofopportunities on the ship?
I did.
I was running Protestant uhservices every week, I was
preaching every week, I wasorchestrating uh Bible studies
every week.
Uh I took a Bible institute atour church, I went through that
for an education purposes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
Well, Bible Institutes and churches are a
good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
They are.
We're doing that here.
You've instrumented in our ourchurch, and it's uh it's a
really good thing.
We need those type of things.
And so the Bible institute wasvery fundamental uh in my growth
because they we had uhprofessors from Liberty
University were coming over toour church and teaching that on
a Monday night.
So, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Um that was helpful to you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
Doctrines, New Testament survey, Old Testament
survey.
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
Because you had you hadn't gone to Bible college,
Bible school, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
I'd only been a Christian for two years.
SPEAKER_01 (12:44):
So you were you were the guy that was on fire for the
Lord, read your Bible a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
And you were in knowledge.
And so after that, I went backto see and I enrolled uh online
Liberty University in school, myundergraduate work.
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
Okay, so that is this the is this the point where
you you've you're starting tosay, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
I started to get a stirring then.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
That I need to where that whatever God's timeline is
for me, but this was when you'relike, I believe that uh God's
calling me to be a pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yes, that's right, Jonathan.
And I and your mother was wasalso because she was a perfect
uh pastor's wife to be.
Uh she was the assistant uhpastor secretary, she was the
apple, uh Apple the I, thesenior pastor, and so she was uh
she was very well reallyequipped for this.
And so we talked about it.
Was she serving in ministrybefore you?
We actually served togetherbefore we got married in Iwana
(13:36):
in our church.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yeah, but she was in the church serving when you met
her.
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
She was teaching in the uh Christian high school
business, she was also thesecretary of the assistant
pastor, plus she was uh, youknow, was was really an adopted
daughter for that.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Can it's a different subject altogether, but uh God,
I truly believe God giftspastors' wives to the church as
well.
Absolutely.
Not not um Herschel York said itin his Pastor Well podcast, um,
which was really helpful to me,but when talking about the the
pastor and his wife, he saysshe's not called to the
ministry, or she's not called tothe job, but she's called to the
(14:11):
life.
Absolutely.
And yeah, that's a wholedifferent thing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
But okay, so but I would caution young men if
they're gonna think they're thethe God is calling them and
they're married, uh they bettergo slow and they better make
sure that their wife, though shemay not, they won't know what
it's get what initially whatit's going to be like, but she
has to be very supportive and bewilling to uh commit to that
type of life.
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
Yeah, oh yeah, I know.
I can remember the conversationwith Caitlin before we got
married, and I just said, youknow, uh I'm I wasn't in
pastoral ministry, but it waspretty clear that my life was
going into the trajectory ofvocational ministry, and
whatever that I don't know, I'mgonna be a missionary, I'm gonna
be a teacher, I don't know, butI knew that my life was given
(14:54):
over to the hopefully the localchurch that service the Lord.
So we had that conversation, andand I think both of us then,
young in our mid-20s, she was alittle younger, but it felt like
we were signing a blank checktogether.
That's right.
And it's like she but she said,I'm all in.
And to this day, she's never notbeen.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
She's not, and she is a she's a great pastor's uh
wife, and you know, get back tohow this continued to evolve.
I wanted to be involved in inlike that man did with me.
I wanted to see young men cometo Christ, I wanted to see
sailors come to Christ, Iwanted, and I have I had
opportunities to preach.
And then when we moved to RhodeIsland, uh we started coming to
(15:32):
Quinnesset when I was still inthe Navy, and Pastor John
Burnett.
Okay, he gave me all kinds ofopportunities to serve.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
And uh that's when you started really kind of
honing in on this.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
That's right, that's right, Jonathan.
I sensed that I was going to bea pastor someday.
It was the desire I had, uh, Ididn't know where, I didn't know
how, and frankly, I didn'treally I didn't really hone in
on that.
I saw the Navy, I saw it as areal uh um um equipping ground
for me because I had all kindsof opportunities to serve.
(16:08):
And so it was unique in thesense that I didn't go the
traditional, you know, seminaryroute.
I mean, I finished myundergraduate work, I I enrolled
in seminary for for 18 hours,but I I saw that my path in the
Navy, and because of myseniority, I was getting to
interact and develop peopleskills that were instrumental in
the pastor.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Okay, and so you uh you did your your Navy career.
I did.
You retired from the Navy, uh,you tell the story that you
retired on a Friday, and then onthat Monday you were brought on
staff.
You had already kind of been, itwas clear that you were coming
on the staff at Quinnesset, andthat you were and it was very
much a transition.
Like when you came on, therewasn't like, oh, here's the
(16:49):
transition plan that we had.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
And I think it's important for your audience to
understand is that um I Ibelieve that you know God calls
a man and that the man has toallow that to percolate, so to
speak, and has to intensify towhere uh he can't do anything
else but that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Well, I think there's the you know, we see
precedent, 1 Timothy chapter 5,where Paul says basically, you
know, Timothy, don't be hasty inthe laying on of hands, the
appointing of elders.
Because like there has to be uhagain this this time of of and
process.
That's right.
(17:27):
And you you know, calls toministry are both internal,
external.
I mean, ultimately a church hasto call you.
Anyone who's called to theministry but not called by a
church, I mean, to pastoralministry, they're not called to
pastoral ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
I agree, and that's what happened at Quinesa is that
uh Pastor Barnett had given meopportunities to preach.
Um, people were affirminggiftedness, uh there, and they I
was active involved in thechurch, not that I was seeking a
position, it sought me.
Sure.
Uh they came after me to be theassistant, uh, and so all the
all that lined up where therewas an affirmation by the church
(18:05):
of giftedness, there was anaffirmation of character, there
was an affirmation ofeffectiveness, and so all those
things kind of aligned, which Ididn't seek.
And I think it's important thatall those things come to the
man.
Um and then it's affirmed by thebody, it's affirmed by the
leadership, and that kind of putit into play to where they
(18:25):
extended a call to me to come asthe assistant.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Great.
So you come on staff, uh, youyou uh it's been a couple years
as an assistant, and then uh youtake over as the the lead
pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Three years of the assistant, and then um you know
voted in as the senior, whichreally was the uh the only.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, you were you were you'redoing the solo pastor, rocking
the solo pastor thing, had tobuild up an elder board um from
that.
So if you were to reflect, say,from that time that you came in
and you, you know, you kind ofyou you were you were at the
helm, you know, you're the leadguy.
Uh what are maybe just a couplebig lessons that you think
(19:05):
you've learned over the longhaul uh that would be helpful to
someone who's thinking aboutministry or uh just just even
informing church members uh youknow of kind of a behind the
scenes with the pastors type ofthing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yes, I think uh uh as an as the assistant, um, you
know, transition uh from um fromfrom from an all-volunteer
service with the Department ofDefense into an all-volunteer
service in the church.
Uh that isn't seamless.
Um and I think that I had to toreally understand that you can
have a lot of strengths, uh, butyou gotta be careful that you
(19:41):
don't try to do spiritualministry in the strength of self
or in the strength of flesh.
Okay.
And I'm I I think I did some ofthat out of ignorance in the uh
in the assistant role.
Uh I saw that we needed change.
I saw we need a lot of uh uh alot of rudder changes, so to
speak, here because we were uh achurch that was in a maintenance
(20:02):
mode at best, if not dying, anduh and I saw the need uh for a
lot of change.
And I think I was a little bitimpatient at the at the pace of
change, but I also, because ofmy military background, I was
loyal to the chain of command.
And so I wasn't underminingleadership or trying to be
pushy, but I knew that we had tohave a sense of urgency, and I
(20:25):
think that contributed to um thechange of leadership.
I think it it contributed to theuh to the change.
And so when I got over as thesenior guy, um it was a uh it
was uh quite a cultural shockbecause I really thought I had
it figured out, but I quicklyrealized that this is way too
much for for uh a mortal man toeven attempt to do.
(20:47):
Yeah, for sure.
But you asked the question aboutwhat what I've learned when you
look back.
I look back and it wasformidable eight years, it was
four, four or five years, andum, you know, there was uh there
was many challenges.
There was many, one of thechallenges of uh you know
preaching uh two times on aSunday, uh plus teaching in
(21:08):
Sunday school on a Sunday.
So there was this three times,uh, and then all the demands of
people, because people want, andin some ways, we were a climate
of an old church with withalmost a a sense of the the
social aspect of the church inthe community.
And for instance, if if someonevisited someone in a hospital
(21:31):
and it wasn't the pastor, itdidn't count.
And so that was a lot ofpressure that placed upon me.
And I I wanted to really getinvolved in people, but the
demands of preaching and eventhe demands of funerals, we had
an older congregation, as youknow, uh, I was very busy with
that.
Uh, one of the things duringthat phase there, um, I would go
(21:52):
back and what I would change isI would spend more time praying
and more time interceding.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Interceding, especially for the problems we
were facing, especially for thepeople that sadly uh were
sometimes uh um uh guilty ofsheep bites.
And so I I would spend more timeinterceding for the people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Talk talk a little bit about sheep bites, um, you
know, and that how can you givegood or some good wisdom or
counsel um because they're realuh and they hurt, and oftentimes
usually you don't get bit in theface, you get bit in the back,
right?
Or something.
(22:34):
And so uh because you don't seeit coming.
Um how how can someone pastorwell uh in the midst of what
we're calling sheep bites?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
Yeah, I I think that um you know Pastor Burnett told
me one time he says you can'tavoid sheep bites, but you can
keep them from getting infected.
And what he was referring to isdon't grow bitter, don't grow
bitter.
And uh and and it's it's easy todo is because a lot of times you
feel it's unwarranted.
(23:07):
Um and one thing with that iswhen the criticism comes, which
it does, uh, I had to learn,which I did not learn initially,
I had to learn to step back andbefore any type of impulsive
response, either internally oroutwardly, I had to ask the
question first, is there anytruth to the criticism?
And if there is, then I need tothank the Lord that this was
revealing something in me thatneeded to change, or if there
(23:31):
wasn't merit for it, then I needto let it go and just and and
not let it become infected.
So that that would I would tella young pastor or a young one
that you're gonna you're gonnahave your critics, uh, and
you're gonna have those thosetimes when your preaching is
criticized.
And you need to be very carefulthat you don't take that so
(23:52):
personal that you forget thatyou're dealing with for the most
part, you're dealing with God'ssheep, and sheep are at
different stages of growth anddifferent maturity level, and
Jesus bears with them all.
And we have to do that as well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
And yeah, and some I mean, handling criticism is just
a part it's a part of it's thenature of what we do.
We stand up in front of thepeople, we lead from the front,
um we are the target ofcriticism.
And so, yeah, definitely ButI've got brothers and sisters in
my life that give me criticismand I love it.
(24:26):
Um because I know where theirheart is.
And these are these are thethese are the people that are
sharpening me.
And I I welcome it.
I had someone the other daysaid, Hey, I've I've got a
criticism for you, and I waslike, Oh no.
And they went to explain it tome.
And I was like, That'scriticism.
I was like, if that's criticism,let me have it all the time.
(24:48):
And it was just like, hey, Ithink you you said this, but
here's a bit here's maybe abetter way that this could be
done.
I was like, that is so muchbetter.
Keep that coming.
You know, uh Mark Dever talksabout when they do like service
review and stuff, um, somethingI've listened to, that one of
the things they try to modelwell is the giving of giving
(25:08):
godly criticism well, receivinggodly criticism well.
Um receiving positive criticismwell, and receiving negative
criticism well, but ultimatelyto do it in a godly way.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
Um I think if you look if if if if you had to
corner me to just list just acouple things that young pastors
need to be constantly aware ofis number one, how you respond
to criticism, and secondly, howyou handle praise.
Uh because praise can praise canbe a very it can be a
well-intended thing that canruin a man.
Um because then if you startlooking for the praise and you
(25:43):
start waiting for the person tosay how good that sermon was or
how good this was, next thingyou know, when that dries up, uh
you're gonna find yourselfreally languishing in a sense of
fulfillment and a sense ofsatisfaction because you're not
getting that affirmation.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yeah, who's no one's patting me on the back anymore?
They're getting just they'regetting used to my preaching.
That's right.
Oh, they think more sermons areaverage now, like until you get
a new person that comes in andthey're like, ah, you know, but
the person that praises you thisSunday may be the one that uh
that bite you uh with a sheepbite next week.
Yeah, don't get too high on thepraise, don't get too low on the
criticism.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
You want to be uh the same in season, out of
season, with criticism, withpraise.
Uh you have to have that becauseyour people need to see a
consistency in us.
Uh we they have to see.
I told someone one time uh thatone of the things about being a
pastor is that you always haveto be on your A game.
And uh and and that isn't beinga hypocrite.
The fact is you gotta be steadybecause your people need to see
(26:44):
steady.
I'm a very a very strongadvocate, is that we grow our
own staff.
We've done that here.
Uh I believe growing your ownpastors, growing your own staff
is so important because it givesthe sheep that sense of security
and safety.
I think longevity and leadershipis very important.
I think if anything, though Ihaven't been the perfect kind of
(27:04):
pastor, what I have been thoughis able to establish kind of a
steadiness throughout the years.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
Oh yeah, 100%.
Um I think in many ways you'rethe man in this place to start
to um bring about positivechange holes in the ship and do
(27:33):
good work um becausehistorically uh you're the
second longest tenured pastor.
And there's a reason why achurch at 200 years old isn't
wasn't for a long time seeinglong-tenured pastors.
And that has a lot to do withthe culture of a church.
And churches church cultureschange.
(27:55):
Um, and I think that yoursteadiness uh has contributed to
a positive cultural change inthe church.
Now, we are running out of time,and I'm loving this
conversation.
Um before and we should pick upand do a part two on this.
Uh, but before we do that, canyou share what your greatest joy
is if you reflect on yourministry?
(28:17):
What is like the highlight orthe or something that just
brings you great joy as youthink about your time in the
pastorate?
SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
I think two things is one is to see how our church
has changed from having areputation in the community as
being exclusive and stuffy, soto speak, to one of being caring
and outreach.
We have made a community impactuh in in the last ten or fifteen
years, and you know it becauseyou've been a part of that.
(28:46):
Our basketball ministry, ourclothing ministry, we have we
have impacted uh the communityin significant ways, which I
don't think we uh really realizehow wide that is.
And I think that's been it.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
And I've got ideas for stuff that even more that we
can do that I'm excited to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I just think that that'll be one thing is uh is I
think because I I can goanywhere in town and people
recognize me, hey, hey, you'rethe church ball pastor, you're
the and so and that's just onearea of it.
Is it and the funerals that I'vebeen able to do with all the
different funeral directordirectors, we have got a good
reputation as a church.
So that is one thing.
And the other thing is beingable to pass the baton, so to
(29:24):
speak, to you, and to know thatwe're in a good place, and as
much as uh, you know, it it'shard, um, but it's right.
And I'm I'm confident that weare we are in a in a very good
place to uh and uh to reallyimpact our community even more
and further.
And because I look around andall I see is a ton of young
(29:46):
people and kids.
Uh it wasn't like that when Igot here.
And it's very it's it'sthrilling to see that you know,
in nine or ten months that I'mgonna be able to uh you know to
uh officially just uh walk awayknowing that we're in a
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
Yeah, that's that's exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
I mean, it's my son.
I mean, how many times dofathers' sons not work and yet
probably more often than not?
Probably not.
Probably not.
But I think in this case, andour churches embrace that to
where uh it's it's healthy andit's good, and uh I'm pleased,
I'm pleased that the Lord hasallowed that to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Well you talk about you know healthy churches
develop and raise their leaders.
That's right.
I think I think there's merit tothat very much so.
Um and we talk also about thechurch being a hospital for
sinners.
And we do, we want to be, youknow, uh we don't want a
hospital with no patients,right?
No.
But at this other time sensetoo, uh I see the church as kind
(30:43):
of a teaching hospital where youhave certain you know, hospitals
that are caring for for thelost, the sick, the patients,
right?
Then you have other hospitalsthat are training doctors to
help care for the and my visionof the church is that we are
both, because pastors I thinkare truly developed and and and
(31:06):
they come into in the localchurch, and that way they can
have on-the-job experience inministry.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
And I think when you look at what the way our world
is really um uh unraveling, isthe church needs to be equipped
to handle some of these culturalchallenges as a trauma center
because it that's where we'reat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
And I think we could talk a little bit about that.
So on our next episode, we'llwe'll continue our conversation
um and we'll focus on theessentials of discipleship in
the local church.
We'll talk a little bit aboutNew Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
Yeah, I think so.
And one thing we might want todiscuss too is because we're
seeing that in our church, isthat uh there is a lot of uh
member-on-member ministryoccurring, shepherding each
other, which uh really isthrills us to see that
happening.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yep.
And so, yeah, let's talk aboutthose two things and then uh
we'll finish off with justencouragement for the next
generation.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Very good.
Thanks for uh having me today.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing
God Podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You could reach out at questionsat pleasing Godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians 4 3.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
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