October 7, 2025 • 34 mins
What if the church’s health could be seen in the air—balanced, steady, and lifting—because evangelism and discipleship finally fly on two wings? That image frames a rich conversation with Pastor Jim about a calling forged in the Navy, nineteen years of waiting that taught presence over programs, and a pastoral philosophy where outreach grows from love of souls and discipleship is built on clear, human-scale spaces.
We walk through stories that make theology tactile: remembering a visitor’s name that changed her posture, and why names matter from Genesis to the book of life. We sketch a practical discipleship pathway patterned after Jesus and extended by Paul—corporate worship for the whole church, community groups for belonging, D-groups for depth, and an institute for leaders. Along the way, we distinguish teaching centers from community centers so people arrive with the right expectations and leave with real formation. For pastors and volunteers who feel stretched thin, we tackle the input–output problem, the difference between eloquence and unction, and the hard-won wisdom to never hit send on a Monday resignation. Endurance, we argue, springs from closeness to Christ, living for the unseen “Well done,” and resting in grace even in weeks stacked with sermons and funerals.
If your heart longs for a church that loves the lost and feeds the sheep, that says names with care and opens homes with joy, this conversation offers a map and the motivation to walk it. We also introduce New Day Mercies, a daily encouragement stream of Scripture, short devotionals, and video reflections designed to flood tired feeds with good news. Subscribe, share with a friend who leads, and tell us: which space in your discipleship pathway needs attention this season?
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically, and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell,and I'm joined once again with
my dad, Pastor Jim.
Good to have you back.
Thank you, Jonathan.
We the last time we were havinga kind of a conversation about
(00:29):
uh reflecting on pastoralministry and your life lessons,
pastoral lessons over uh thelast 23 years of faithfully
serving in one church, uh tosay, which is amazing as well.
Um, you shared with us, uhbrother, just about the
circumstances surrounding yourcall to ministry.
(00:50):
Um, and I just want to recap onthat briefly.
You became a follower of Jesuswhen you were 21 years old.
By about 23 or so, you werestarting to have that stirring
of a call, but you didn't enterofficially vocational pastoral
ministry until you were 40.
42.
42.
(01:10):
So you had 19 years of let's saybeing in the school of Christ,
of of the training grounds.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
That's a very good way to uh to approach it because
what what it allowed me to do isbecause I was immersed in an
unsaved culture in the military,and as a Christian, there's no
place to hide.
See, in in modern Christendom,uh, and I think one of the uh
one of the great challenges weface is this privatization of
the Christian life, is that wecan see some of our people only
(01:42):
on Sunday.
And so what we've got going onhere with community groups and D
groups and trying to get morelife on life, uh, I had that in
the Navy.
I was immersed in that.
So um it gave me opportunity toengage as being a friend of
sinners.
And and I learned a lot ofpeople skills and a lot of the
applications of even Jesus'ministry in the gospels in the
context of being on on ships andthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Yeah, and I wonder if that's contributed a lot to
even it has to have, um, yourphilosophy of ministry, and
you've had a commitment tooutreach for uh really your time
in the pastorate.
And that has seen, I think, theculture of a church kind of
flows downstream from itsleadership.
(02:25):
That's right.
And so uh if you you're notgonna have an outreach-driven
church if you don't have anoutreach-driven pastor or
outreach-driven elders.
Uh, you're not gonna have achurch of deep discipleship if
that's not being practiced andpreached in a church.
And so I wonder how much that 19years of having to kind of like
live out your faith in the midstof darkness in a in a radically
(02:48):
unchurched context on the ship.
I wonder how much that kind ofcarried into your desire for
outreach in the local church.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
I I think it it fostered a real love for people
outside of Christ.
You see the misery uh because Iwas miserable outside of Christ,
and I was led to the Lord by aman who loved my soul, as I told
you in in the uh first episode.
Uh and I think as pastors and asChristians in general, uh
Spurgeon once said, He thatwould be a winner of souls must
(03:19):
be a lover of souls.
And I believe that when we havethe love of Christ controlling
us, it's inevitable that youhave the balance of a love for
the loss plus a love for hissheep to grow.
Uh those two are are not inopposition.
If anything, they provide theholistic of the Christian.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
I would say that it's like the wings on an
airplane.
That's right.
Um, and if you want to be ahealthy church, if your church
is the airplane, you needoutreach and you need
discipleship.
Uh because you do not want tofly in a plane with one wing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
You don't, and I think that is.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
That's gonna crash, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
You said you said uh uh a wonderful statement because
we want to have uh our leadersto have a passion for
discipleship, a passion forgrowing disciples, and a passion
for reaching and uh andbeginning the process of making
disciples.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Yeah, and I don't think it necessarily means that
okay, so I think about myself.
Like I know outreach isimportant, and I support
outreach.
I'm for outreach.
I want to help train people inoutreach.
I'm not an evangelist.
Like, I know people that canstrike up a conversation with
(04:31):
somebody, get so friendly, andin five minutes be talking to
them about Jesus, and it's notawkward.
I I for me to even just initiateconversation, I I I can get
tongue-tied in my own brain.
I but I do like that Paul tellsTimothy to do the work of an
evangelist.
Whether he is or he isn't, andTimothy's not.
That's right.
(04:52):
He's still required as a pastorto be about the preaching and
sharing of the gospel.
I'm much more comfortable inlike a discipleship setting,
really training, trainingleaders, but I also know m
brothers and pastors that are sogifted and and their passion in
that outreach.
(05:13):
I want to lean into them andjust like.
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
I think so.
I think when you look atoutreach, I'm I am not a big fan
of these the structured outreachprograms or structured outreach
events.
I think that that with me, Imean, I happen to be I'm I'm a
people person.
I I I can I can strike up aconversation with with and make
people feel comfortable in mypresence in a matter of just a
(05:36):
couple seconds.
I mean, I'm laying in ahospital, you know, and talking
to nurses and doctors like it'sno big deal.
And so, uh, and I know God hasgiven me that heart for people,
and I can conversationally enterinto those type of things and
make people kind of let downtheir defenses and talk to me
and be and so it doesn't make mean evangelist, but it does make
me an approachable person thatopens the venues to do that.
(05:58):
But I think the averageChristian, whether we're
introverted or extroverted, whenthere's a love of people, then
those different personalitiescan be used to create an
environment of outreach.
I had one example was uh a ladywho came to our church, and it's
it's it's not a long story, butshe um she came by herself and
(06:18):
she sat there, and and I have atendency, uh, you know, on
Sunday mornings, I'll walkaround and uh and like the mayor
of Quinness, and I'll talk toeverybody and anybody.
And so I walked over to her andshe That exhausts me, by the
way.
Yeah, and it energizes me.
And so I see I see her.
I walked over there and uh herhead was down and she raised up
and just locked the eyes, and Isaid, Hi.
(06:40):
I said, uh my name's Jim.
I'm I'm really glad you're here,and what's your name?
And she was kind of likeshocked, and she says, My name
is Rita.
And so I went about then.
Well, next week she came backand she sat in the same place,
no one around her.
It's like no flight zone aroundher.
And uh so I walked by her and Istop and I used her name.
I said, Rita, I'm really glad tosee you again.
(07:01):
And her eyes got as big assaucers because I remembered her
name.
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
That's a fantastic lesson to for any and all
pastors, uh, church leaders,elders.
Remember people's names.
It's huge.
It is it is a challenge for me.
I try, I I try to uh attachtheir name to to something that
I can tr just to trigger amemory.
(07:25):
Um I met a lady this last weekand she introduced herself and
gave me her name.
And uh I quick I quicklyattached that name, and if
people wouldn't have noticed,but after I was done talking to
her, I was kind of walking upand down the aisles just saying
her name over and over again anduh trying to cement that so that
the next time I see her, I don'thave to now remind me of your
(07:48):
name again.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
You know, though it's a there's an intentionality
with that that uh that is justit it just has to be whether
we're gifted in that, it's justit's an intentionality that
everybody has a name.
It's important to try toremember names.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
So another side note on this, we were just doing our
class, uh Bible institute class.
We ran a summer uh intensive umon Bible overview, and we did
the the story of redemption, um,Graham Goldsworthy, Von Roberts,
um beginning in Genesis, endingin Revelation, and one of the
final assignments or the finalassignment for those that were
(08:25):
taking the institute class forcredits was that they had to
trace a biblical theme fromGenesis to Revelation, finding
its ultimate or penultimatefulfillment in Christ's first
coming or second coming.
And one of the students pickedthe theme of names.
And at first I was kind of likescratching my head, what do you
mean names?
(08:45):
I mean, that that could be likereally, really broad, like
genealogies, and and uh shepresented her paper on on how
God gave us a name and uh markedus as individuals.
One of the big things Adam namedEve, God named Adam, but then as
you as you trace it all the waythrough, you start to see that
(09:08):
the name someone's name mattersto the high point where God has
bestowed on his son the namethat is above every name.
At the end of days, it's ournames that are written in the
book of life as kind of like therole of heaven.
And so remembering someone'sname is more than just a
(09:31):
personal touch, it's meaningfulto the even the storyline of the
Bible.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Maybe God gave us a command not to take his name in
vain, and he tells us in Psalm138, I've exalted above all
things my name and my word.
So we learn the attributes ofGod through his name.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
That's right, that's right.
Who shall I say sent me?
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Tell him I am who I am.
That's right.
Or the the the reverence forYahweh, where the Jews would not
even speak the name.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
And I'll tell you, Jonathan, people love to hear
their names.
Yeah, people love to hear theirnames.
They'd say, Hey you, or hey Jim.
I mean, it's there's a bigdifference.
It means you care.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
Well, when I would hear Jonathan Edward uh growing
up, I didn't love to hear thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
Well, I mean, it's sometimes it needed to be uh it
needed to be said.
SPEAKER_00 (10:16):
So when you get called by your your first full
name and middle name, you knowyou've done messed up.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
Well, I got that from my mother, so you're in
good company.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah.
Um okay, so let's talk a littlebit about discipleship in the
local church.
And what are some ways in whichyou have seen uh discipleship
flourish uh within churchcontext, whether it be through
preaching through ordiscipleship through preaching
(10:44):
or personal relationships, uhmentoring young believers
one-on-one, D groups, whateverit might be, what are some
things that you've observed tobe effective and helpful?
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
I think that I think that we have got a good uh a
good model unfolding.
Um when I first got here, andbecause there was really not a
lot of that going on, it wasonly in the in the structure of
a Sunday school and the ABF.
So there was nothing reallygoing on outside of that.
And so there'd be this reallykind of just a monologue.
(11:13):
It was just kind of an aninstruction period only, and and
most of the time that justdoesn't take.
There isn't that you know, thatapplication, this life on life
with other people.
And and so we had that, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
There is there is merit forthat.
But I think that where uh itstarted to shift was we started
to place an emphasis on um uh ongetting involved in each other's
(11:35):
lives.
Um you know, what you've donewith uh with your doctrinal uh
project and what you you've donewith uh stressing now we're into
these community groups.
I I think that the homes aresuch a wonderful thing.
And one thing that I, when Ifirst got here, uh even as the
assistant, um, and little did Irealize it, but there was a
discipleship component withthat, is I visited people in
(11:58):
their homes.
And I would sit in their homesand talk about, you know, the
things of the Lord and and talk,but it was almost in kind of an
informal catechizing of the kidof the of the families.
I think that there's much to besaid about getting outside the
walls.
The walls are important inclassrooms, which we're doing
with the institute and Sundayschools and ABS, those are
important.
Uh however, getting outside thewalls and getting into the realm
(12:22):
of hospitality, whichhospitality is huge for
discipleship.
And I think that's that that's avery important part.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I was really influenced by J.T.
English's book, DeepDiscipleship, uh, where he he
really kind of teases out.
He actually had a that was a lotof influence on my doctoral
work, um, where he's arguingkind of for like a for a
pendulum swing back to learningcenters, but he distinguishes
(12:49):
between uh teaching, I think hecalls them teaching centers and
community centers.
And identifying the purpose of aof a gathering, is this for
building community or is thisfor teaching or learning?
And what he says is is that onewill take the primary over the
(13:09):
other.
You can't primarily do both.
You will do both in thosesettings, but is this a
community-focused thing, or isthis and so having kind of okay,
so if you're in the if you're inthe Bible institute and you're
coming for community, you're youyou don't have the right
expectation.
If you're coming to a communitygroup and you're wanting to go
through systematic theology, youyou don't you'll have the right
(13:32):
expectation.
And so clearly identifying whatthis group, what this gathering
is primarily focused on, I thinkit's helpful because you need
community and teaching fordiscipleship.
I mean, when Jesus gives thediscipleship mandate, he tells
them to go and make disciples ofall nations by what?
(13:52):
Teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you.
And I am with you always.
There's fellowship and communitythere until the end of the age,
baptizing the name of Father,Son, the Holy Spirit.
And so I think it's what'shelpful is is helping to
distinguish which spaces, thepurpose of space is by having
both.
We in the previous we talkedabout uh episode, I think we
(14:13):
talked about the arms in theairplane with evangelism being
one side and discipleship beingthe other.
Well, if we were flying thediscipleship plane, I think we
have learning centers andcommunity centers where that
balances it out, but you stillare centered around the word
about uh fostering uh uhfriendships, faith formation,
(14:36):
fellowship.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Those are all I think those those those I like
the illustration of the of theairplane.
One thing that I have donepersonally in the last ten years
is that I have intentionallyformed uh small groups of men,
uh anywhere from two to four,and we have studied books, uh
thematic books um uh concerningdiscipleship, concerning uh you
(15:01):
know the life of Christ andthings like that.
And and getting men together towork through uh biblical based
books that focus on you knowgrowing in in the faith.
I I found that to be sorewarding uh because one they
were committed to a certaintime, uh secondly, there was
directed material, uh, and andthirdly, they had to prepare
(15:23):
before they came.
And and I I have benefited somuch from just investing in men
in those small group settings.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah, I think informal but formal.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
So uh I do not believe there is something that
we would say is the model ofdiscipleship.
People, when we talk aboutdiscipleship in the local
church, they want to run toTitus chapter two.
Yeah.
And here's the model (15:43):
older women to younger men women,
older men to younger men.
I would say, no, that is amodel.
Uh, and that is a helpful model.
And so you can have theone-on-one mentoring type of
model, you can have a communitygroup model.
I mean, think about somethingthat we're working on
implementing called what we callthe discipleship pathway, where
(16:05):
we're looking how do we movepeople from the big gathering,
corporate worship, to communitygroups, to discipleship groups,
to the institute, and thenultimately from the institute
back into leading in corporateworship.
And I think about Jesus' modelof discipleship.
That's kind of what gee a littlebit of mostly Jesus and then
some Paul, kind of formed outdiscipleship pathway.
(16:28):
But you see Jesus in his largeform discipleship, a great crowd
gathered around him.
And we have our corporatediscipleship being the Sunday
morning gathering, singing,preaching, praying, seeing,
reading the word.
It all centers around that bigthing, and the preaching moment
(16:49):
being the pinnacle.
And so, and that's that's to thecrowds.
But then Jesus had his communitygroup.
He had the twelve, and he wasmuch more intentional there,
investing in them, teaching themat a more intimate level.
He would give parables to thelarge crowds, and then they'd
come and say, Can you explainthe meaning of this?
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
And then even take it smaller, take three guys to
the mountains figuration.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Alright, so now Jesus goes from the the the
corporate to the community, thenhis D group uh is that he had
Peter, James, and John.
That's right.
So he had the inner circle ofguys, uh and that was even the
most intimate in training thosemen at a deeper level than the
twelve.
But Jesus never started aninstitute.
unknown (17:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Paul did, I think, and we would I think it's in
Acts 19 at the Hall or 20 at theHall of Tyrannus.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Where he was this is a place where Paul was standing
up and declaring and instructingabout gospel truths.
And so when I think about how aninstitute works in the church
for discipleship, each group,right, corporate's the largest,
and uh, you know, you've got acouple hundred there, D groups,
those are gonna be multiplegroups, 12 or so, and it keeps
(18:06):
getting a little bit smaller.
It's right.
And to the point where, youknow, when you start doing like
an institute, these are thepeople that are going, this is
deep discipleship.
That's right.
This is this is very much you'redoing work, and not everyone has
that capacity.
Not everyone's called to thateither.
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
And so understanding on the discipleship pathway,
it's not about completing thewhole thing, but it's being
involved in something.
And I think that's what we'retrying to do and do well for
local church.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
I think you got a vision, and it's a good vision,
is that we want to raisechurchmen, we want to raise
leaders, we want to raisedeacons and elders, we want to
raise you know vocationalpastors, we want to plant
churches.
Um, one thing I would tell younguh uh ascribing guys, because
I've done this myself, is makesure that you're in environments
(18:52):
where it's not all output.
You need input, you need to bereceiving too.
I'm in an environment where Ihave I have men that speak into
my life.
I I'm in a Sunday schoolstructure where I don't teach
every week.
I set under teaching.
There are men that are gifted,and that I am helping them
exercise their gift, and I'mreceiving.
(19:13):
I think that we need to bereceivers.
Uh, we need to be able to haveour own souls nurtured and and
and to grow because we arepastors, but we're we're
followers in Christians first.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
And so we need that grow.
We need that.
If you're always I've I've I'veseen Christians through the
years that all they did wasoutput, output, output.
And that's just that's an easyrecipe to dying on the vine, so
to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
See, that's that's burnout, that's gonna run the
well dry.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
And you can't give uh living water out of a dry
well.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Yeah, and no matter what level of sermon prep and
how life-giving it is, becauseit is, I mean, uh my the best
part about preaching ispreparation.
It is.
Without question, sitting down,Bible open, mining the
scriptures, praying, prayingthrough, uh, and just just
feasting on God's word to thepoint where I think good
(20:08):
preaching, this is a whole otherpodcast too, uh that is that is
seen and received comes fromgood preparation.
And it's almost like I havefeasted on this meal, uh, and I
am I am so full, I gotta shareit.
Also, or like, hey, this swordcut deep this week.
(20:30):
Um, and I am just now recoveringfrom my wounds, but I gotta
deliver that.
And and I've had I've had bothwhere like I'm just like
bursting at the seams, notbecause I love to stand in front
of people, because I spoileralert, I don't.
Yeah, uh, but I love I lovemining God's word.
I I've said many times I couldwrite sermons and never preach
them.
Yeah, but it does feelincomplete.
(20:51):
I gotta get it out.
I gotta get it out.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
And sometimes you have uh we have so much.
Um, but I I would also tellyoung preachers um is is to
understand that theeffectiveness of your ministry
is only going to be as effectiveas your close walk to the Lord.
You have got to, you've got tominister and even preach out of
the fullness of your closenessto Christ.
(21:13):
That is the fundamental uhdifference between in in
anointed preaching, so to speak,and those that are just uh
giving giving a bunch of factsor giving a great outline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
I have witnessed and I have sat and listened to some
preaching and my some of mythoughts have been that man
knows the word, but I'm not surehe knows God.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
A preacher who knows God and may know about God.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Yeah, that's right.
Or studied a text, but n nevergot to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
I heard a man once say that uh uh he listened to uh
uh an actor uh quote the Psalm23 and it was very eloquent.
And they had this old veteranpreacher get up there and and
quoted the psalmist again, andit wasn't as eloquent.
And they asked the actor whatwas the difference between you
and him.
He says, Here's the difference.
(22:04):
I know the psalm, he knows theshepherd.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
It that's powerful.
Uh let's pivot here, talkingtalking about discipleship.
We're we're thankful for theinitiatives that that we're
we're trying to do and why it'simportant to the church.
Um, because that's the missionof the church, is to help people
follow Jesus.
And that's when and I think Ithink you have a really we have
a really healthy culture ofdiscipleship in a church when we
(22:28):
understand that evangelism is asubcategory of that.
Evangelism is front linesdiscipleship, and not it's when
it's taken out, evangelismbecomes a means and an end.
And it's like, no, we now wewant to introduce you to Jesus,
and then we want to help you getto know Jesus, and we then we
(22:49):
want to get to the point whereyou are introducing people to
Jesus and helping them get toknow Jesus because that's
generational discipleship.
That's what we want to do.
Um so you've got uh a newinitiative going on.
Um you're in a state oftransition in life, you're
coming up to the conclusion ofyour vocational pastoral
ministry.
(23:10):
Like you said, we don't everretire, we just get reassigned.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
And so you've begun, uh, let me get this right, New
Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
New Day Mercies.
It's a uh social media.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
Just briefly about that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
Well, it it started uh really about probably uh
maybe 15 years ago when Istarted writing a daily
devotional for the church.
It's called the Quinnesset, theQBC Daily Nugget, and I was
writing this devotional, and Ithere's probably four four
thousand of them out there now.
I've written uh so many of them,and uh it became just a venue
(23:42):
for me to to to inject truthinto those who would be
interested.
And and and God has has reallytaken that, I mean, worldwide,
and there's a there's a largedistribution, and so but I knew
that I was winding down in in aregular uh pulpit ministry, but
I also believe that that God hasgifted me to to write.
(24:03):
Okay, and so I started doingsome uh some short video
devotionals during COVID just tokeep connected with our people.
Well, I had some ex-Navy friendsand guys that said we continue
to do this.
So I saw that eventually thiswould this would uh fade away as
a ministry of Quinescent, andrightly so, but I knew that I
still wanted to do and injecttruth through social media.
(24:26):
Okay.
So that's what New Day Merciesuh has evolved to.
We we post scriptural pictureswith uh that we write
devotionals, we do video.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
So like so like a daily encouragement ministry.
That's what it really is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
And if you look on the bio and the Facebook page,
it is a uh it is a daily uhencouragement ministry of the
word.
It has video, it has scripture,it has devotion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
So how could someone find it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
All they do is go on Facebook and just search uh New
Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
New Day Mercies.
New Day Mercies and then justlike and follow the page.
That's all they have to do.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Like and follow the page, and uh and we will uh
occasionally uh advertise it onour own personal Facebook page.
And I eventually I want to uhmaybe broaden that uh to what
we're gonna do to uh now weinclude uh book recommendations
and those type of things, andmaybe uh it come it it evolves
into a website with you know adaily blog or whatever.
(25:19):
But for now, um we've had yourresponse to it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
And are you primarily through Facebook right
now?
Yeah, right now.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
All right, so so New Day Mercies, you can search the
page, you can you can like,follow, and you'd get daily
content that would just andeventually when we do get ready
to leave here, we will provideum similar to what you've done
with yours, either um you know,the the Sub Slack or um uh
Substack, or we'll do a mailchip where people want to sign
(25:46):
up to receive their day toreceive the daily devotional via
email or something.
We're gonna do that as well.
SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
Yeah, okay, and I'm sure you'll have instruction for
that through the page.
So all right, so great.
Um again, uh New Day MerciesFacebook page.
Uh like, follow, subscribe,whatever you do on that, and
that way you can uh stay stayabreast with content.
And then as you're releasingsome new stuff, you'll post to
listeners there.
We will okay.
Great, great.
Um, I'm excited about that.
Uh, I think I'm a follower tooon that, but my Facebook days,
(26:16):
I'm I'm very hit and miss onsocial.
I need to get it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I know there's so much out therethat's not good on social media,
so my desire was just to floodit with good stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
That's right.
Yeah, that's good.
Uh all right.
Let's let's wrap up ourconversation here with just
encouragement for the nextgeneration.
You know, for a while there, Iwas the next generation, but
right now, I feel like I'm justthe middle generation.
You are.
When I get called a young guy, Ikind of chuckle.
(26:45):
And and and I'm at the pointnow.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
You should probably correct that person.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
I I'm just I'm like, well, I'm glad you still feel
that way about me.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
That's right.
But there is a widening gapoccurring between you and the
younger.
But you're in a position now,and and you're in a very
influential position that youknow the future uh where we're
at and in our culture, I believethat there is a spiritual hunger
that's occurring in youngpeople, uh, and even in in not
(27:13):
so young people.
There is a spiritual hunger thatwe have an opportunity to really
uh do a good work in ourgeneration.
And we see some of the oldergeneration, we saw John
MacArthur recently, Vody Bachmango to be with the Lord, R.C.
Sproul.
So it's time, and and you are ofthat.
And it's time for us to uh seizethe moment uh that we have.
(27:34):
And I believe that you have anopportunity to uh to really
impact, and for what we need todo is we need to make sure we
encourage Christians that thesemay seem dark times, but the
light gr shines brighter in thedarkest.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
I have no pessimism about the future of the church.
No, I am extremely optimistic,and some people say, Oh, that's
you know, that sounds like beingpost-mill.
No, I'm not saying that.
What I am saying is that I thinkthat there is a bright future.
I do too.
I think you see a little bit oflike a Charlie Kirk effect, you
(28:08):
know, that's that's beenhappening in recent time.
I'm excited, and I look at uhdarkness around not as not as
opposition, it is, but asopportunity.
That we can be a city on a hill,we can be a light in the midst
of darkness, and we live in aregion of the country in in New
England that is uh woefullyunchurched, and it's
(28:33):
opportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
And so I think it extends even into the cultural
south, where it's uh it's it'sshallow, and uh there may be an
easy believism that'smasquerading as Christianity.
I I also think though that wehave the opportunity before us
uh to see the weaning of thechurch.
Uh, because you're not gonna beable to be a fringe Christian.
(28:55):
You're not gonna be able to be anominal Christian if there is
such a thing.
You're gonna have to uh be allin or all out.
Because I think the pressure onthe church is gonna be such that
we're gonna have almost need tobecome communal.
It's almost like full circle thebook of Acts again.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Yeah, you got Acts 2 again.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
And that's wonderful for us, is because I believe the
joy that we experience, the joyof the Lord, the presence of the
Lord, will be so intensified aswe come together for the purpose
of the gospel.
So it's exciting ties, but it'snot exciting ties if you just
want to be nominal and you wantto be on the fringe.
I think you'll be a casualty.
SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
We are the pillar and buttress of the truth.
And we live in a world that ismessy, is confused, and is in a
state of chaos.
And we are the pillar of truth.
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
And that's the opportunistic times in which we
live.
Because I I my burden is to seethe church embrace the metaphors
that we are.
You know, Christ is the head orthe body, uh, the husband, the
bride, the vine, the branches.
I want to see the church.
Church really grasp what itmeans to be in union with Christ
and the radical implicationsthat is for culture.
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Okay.
So let's bring it all fullcircle.
Twenty-three years.
SPEAKER_01 (30:12):
It'll be twenty-four and a half when we're going to
be.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Twenty-four.
So twenty-four years.
What would you say to youngerpastors, leaders, or Christians
who want to remain faithful overthe long haul?
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Number one, never ever, ever write a resignation
letter on a Monday.
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
Or or just don't hit send.
SPEAKER_01 (30:32):
Or don't sit send.
I said I probably have Iprobably have 50 of them on my
hard drive.
But uh always realize to befaithful.
Number one, you have to beconvinced that you didn't choose
this.
You were chosen for this.
And that and that's that'severything.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
That's that's being a pastor, it's being a leader,
and it's being a Christian.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
Absolutely.
That's everything.
You better have that sense of ofuh even if you want to say it,
divine handcuffs upon you whereI can't do anything but Jesus
looks at Peter.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Where are you guys do you guys want to go now?
Jeremiah.
To where will we to whom shallwe go?
Peter says, You have the wordsof eternal life.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
And if you have that, you may want to walk away
and you may feel like walkingaway, and you may take a step,
but you won't be able to.
So the first thing is have areal sense of divine constraint.
The second thing is to live inthe unseen world more than the
seen, and let the motivation beto hear well done, thou good and
faithful servant.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
And those two things, I think divine
constraint, persevering to hear,well done, thou good and
faithful servant, those will bethe the two pillars, the two
structures that will rule theday in your pastoral ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
I would add a third one, learn to rest in God's
grace.
SPEAKER_01 (31:46):
I have not done that well, and probably that's why I
didn't say that.
Uh I have probably rolled theinstrument hard.
Um last three or four years havebeen pretty pretty significant
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
And uh and and I think that uh I wish I would
have learned to rest.
I I think and I part of it was avictimization of what I was.
Well, I can spend a boil burnall the midnight oil for the
Department of Defense.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
I can do the same thing for the uh and I'm saying
I'm learning that um as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:16):
So but there are times that you do have to burn
the oil.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
Oh yeah.
But you know, you like you justknow when those things like you
do.
Like this this you're notwondering, do I have to you just
know.
And literally, like you just youjust go into the next gear.
I wouldn't have to go.
And sometimes, and andsometimes, you know what, it's
that energy drink or that cup ofcoffee, because this one's gonna
be a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:35):
I had those weeks where I had two sermons and two
funerals uh in one week, and uh,and and people going in for
surgery.
So I had those, but you know,God gives grace for those ramped
up seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I there's been times where I gotinto sermon prep early in the
week and like the sermon cametogether really fast.
And because you knew what wasgonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
So you didn't know what was gonna happen at the end
of the week, and you're gladgood thing it did.
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
So, so now, because I've had a couple of times where
like you know, that happened,and I was like, oh, this is
great.
This might be a fun, and thencome to find out, like, nope,
God was multiplying the timebecause boom, you were gonna hit
this Thursday Friday.
Like, there's been some weekswhere like the sermon came
together really fast, and I go,uh-oh.
(33:23):
That's right.
I go, uh-oh, oh no.
Um, yeah, I would, I just Ithink those are great.
And um, no, I'm thankful.
I'm thankful to have thisconversation with you.
Uh, just to just a pull fromyour your multiple years of
experience, the highs and thelows.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Um well, I would conclude with this.
It's been a real pleasure, andit's been what a journey we've
been on to see where God hastaken you and where you are, and
and to allow us to be togetherthrough these years.
And uh uh it's just as difficultas it is gonna be to leave.
I'm uh I'm confident that thatGod's got his hand on you and
(33:59):
got and on our church.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yeah, uh, I don't think we're gonna let you leave,
but you can keep trying.
Um but yeah, I will say ifanyone's benefited from your
pastoral ministry the most, ithas to be me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Well, thank you, Doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing
God Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You could reach out at questionsat pleasing godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians 4 3, this is the
will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically, and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell,and I'm joined once again with
my dad, Pastor Jim.
Good to have you back.
Thank you, Jonathan.
We the last time we were havinga kind of a conversation about
(00:29):
uh reflecting on pastoralministry and your life lessons,
pastoral lessons over uh thelast 23 years of faithfully
serving in one church, uh tosay, which is amazing as well.
Um, you shared with us, uhbrother, just about the
circumstances surrounding yourcall to ministry.
(00:50):
Um, and I just want to recap onthat briefly.
You became a follower of Jesuswhen you were 21 years old.
By about 23 or so, you werestarting to have that stirring
of a call, but you didn't enterofficially vocational pastoral
ministry until you were 40.
42.
42.
(01:10):
So you had 19 years of let's saybeing in the school of Christ,
of of the training grounds.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
That's a very good way to uh to approach it because
what what it allowed me to do isbecause I was immersed in an
unsaved culture in the military,and as a Christian, there's no
place to hide.
See, in in modern Christendom,uh, and I think one of the uh
one of the great challenges weface is this privatization of
the Christian life, is that wecan see some of our people only
(01:42):
on Sunday.
And so what we've got going onhere with community groups and D
groups and trying to get morelife on life, uh, I had that in
the Navy.
I was immersed in that.
So um it gave me opportunity toengage as being a friend of
sinners.
And and I learned a lot ofpeople skills and a lot of the
applications of even Jesus'ministry in the gospels in the
context of being on on ships andthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Yeah, and I wonder if that's contributed a lot to
even it has to have, um, yourphilosophy of ministry, and
you've had a commitment tooutreach for uh really your time
in the pastorate.
And that has seen, I think, theculture of a church kind of
flows downstream from itsleadership.
(02:25):
That's right.
And so uh if you you're notgonna have an outreach-driven
church if you don't have anoutreach-driven pastor or
outreach-driven elders.
Uh, you're not gonna have achurch of deep discipleship if
that's not being practiced andpreached in a church.
And so I wonder how much that 19years of having to kind of like
live out your faith in the midstof darkness in a in a radically
(02:48):
unchurched context on the ship.
I wonder how much that kind ofcarried into your desire for
outreach in the local church.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
I I think it it fostered a real love for people
outside of Christ.
You see the misery uh because Iwas miserable outside of Christ,
and I was led to the Lord by aman who loved my soul, as I told
you in in the uh first episode.
Uh and I think as pastors and asChristians in general, uh
Spurgeon once said, He thatwould be a winner of souls must
(03:19):
be a lover of souls.
And I believe that when we havethe love of Christ controlling
us, it's inevitable that youhave the balance of a love for
the loss plus a love for hissheep to grow.
Uh those two are are not inopposition.
If anything, they provide theholistic of the Christian.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
I would say that it's like the wings on an
airplane.
That's right.
Um, and if you want to be ahealthy church, if your church
is the airplane, you needoutreach and you need
discipleship.
Uh because you do not want tofly in a plane with one wing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
You don't, and I think that is.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
That's gonna crash, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
You said you said uh uh a wonderful statement because
we want to have uh our leadersto have a passion for
discipleship, a passion forgrowing disciples, and a passion
for reaching and uh andbeginning the process of making
disciples.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Yeah, and I don't think it necessarily means that
okay, so I think about myself.
Like I know outreach isimportant, and I support
outreach.
I'm for outreach.
I want to help train people inoutreach.
I'm not an evangelist.
Like, I know people that canstrike up a conversation with
(04:31):
somebody, get so friendly, andin five minutes be talking to
them about Jesus, and it's notawkward.
I I for me to even just initiateconversation, I I I can get
tongue-tied in my own brain.
I but I do like that Paul tellsTimothy to do the work of an
evangelist.
Whether he is or he isn't, andTimothy's not.
That's right.
(04:52):
He's still required as a pastorto be about the preaching and
sharing of the gospel.
I'm much more comfortable inlike a discipleship setting,
really training, trainingleaders, but I also know m
brothers and pastors that are sogifted and and their passion in
that outreach.
(05:13):
I want to lean into them andjust like.
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
I think so.
I think when you look atoutreach, I'm I am not a big fan
of these the structured outreachprograms or structured outreach
events.
I think that that with me, Imean, I happen to be I'm I'm a
people person.
I I I can I can strike up aconversation with with and make
people feel comfortable in mypresence in a matter of just a
(05:36):
couple seconds.
I mean, I'm laying in ahospital, you know, and talking
to nurses and doctors like it'sno big deal.
And so, uh, and I know God hasgiven me that heart for people,
and I can conversationally enterinto those type of things and
make people kind of let downtheir defenses and talk to me
and be and so it doesn't make mean evangelist, but it does make
me an approachable person thatopens the venues to do that.
(05:58):
But I think the averageChristian, whether we're
introverted or extroverted, whenthere's a love of people, then
those different personalitiescan be used to create an
environment of outreach.
I had one example was uh a ladywho came to our church, and it's
it's it's not a long story, butshe um she came by herself and
(06:18):
she sat there, and and I have atendency, uh, you know, on
Sunday mornings, I'll walkaround and uh and like the mayor
of Quinness, and I'll talk toeverybody and anybody.
And so I walked over to her andshe That exhausts me, by the
way.
Yeah, and it energizes me.
And so I see I see her.
I walked over there and uh herhead was down and she raised up
and just locked the eyes, and Isaid, Hi.
(06:40):
I said, uh my name's Jim.
I'm I'm really glad you're here,and what's your name?
And she was kind of likeshocked, and she says, My name
is Rita.
And so I went about then.
Well, next week she came backand she sat in the same place,
no one around her.
It's like no flight zone aroundher.
And uh so I walked by her and Istop and I used her name.
I said, Rita, I'm really glad tosee you again.
(07:01):
And her eyes got as big assaucers because I remembered her
name.
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
That's a fantastic lesson to for any and all
pastors, uh, church leaders,elders.
Remember people's names.
It's huge.
It is it is a challenge for me.
I try, I I try to uh attachtheir name to to something that
I can tr just to trigger amemory.
(07:25):
Um I met a lady this last weekand she introduced herself and
gave me her name.
And uh I quick I quicklyattached that name, and if
people wouldn't have noticed,but after I was done talking to
her, I was kind of walking upand down the aisles just saying
her name over and over again anduh trying to cement that so that
the next time I see her, I don'thave to now remind me of your
(07:48):
name again.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
You know, though it's a there's an intentionality
with that that uh that is justit it just has to be whether
we're gifted in that, it's justit's an intentionality that
everybody has a name.
It's important to try toremember names.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
So another side note on this, we were just doing our
class, uh Bible institute class.
We ran a summer uh intensive umon Bible overview, and we did
the the story of redemption, um,Graham Goldsworthy, Von Roberts,
um beginning in Genesis, endingin Revelation, and one of the
final assignments or the finalassignment for those that were
(08:25):
taking the institute class forcredits was that they had to
trace a biblical theme fromGenesis to Revelation, finding
its ultimate or penultimatefulfillment in Christ's first
coming or second coming.
And one of the students pickedthe theme of names.
And at first I was kind of likescratching my head, what do you
mean names?
(08:45):
I mean, that that could be likereally, really broad, like
genealogies, and and uh shepresented her paper on on how
God gave us a name and uh markedus as individuals.
One of the big things Adam namedEve, God named Adam, but then as
you as you trace it all the waythrough, you start to see that
(09:08):
the name someone's name mattersto the high point where God has
bestowed on his son the namethat is above every name.
At the end of days, it's ournames that are written in the
book of life as kind of like therole of heaven.
And so remembering someone'sname is more than just a
(09:31):
personal touch, it's meaningfulto the even the storyline of the
Bible.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Maybe God gave us a command not to take his name in
vain, and he tells us in Psalm138, I've exalted above all
things my name and my word.
So we learn the attributes ofGod through his name.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
That's right, that's right.
Who shall I say sent me?
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Tell him I am who I am.
That's right.
Or the the the reverence forYahweh, where the Jews would not
even speak the name.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
And I'll tell you, Jonathan, people love to hear
their names.
Yeah, people love to hear theirnames.
They'd say, Hey you, or hey Jim.
I mean, it's there's a bigdifference.
It means you care.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
Well, when I would hear Jonathan Edward uh growing
up, I didn't love to hear thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
Well, I mean, it's sometimes it needed to be uh it
needed to be said.
SPEAKER_00 (10:16):
So when you get called by your your first full
name and middle name, you knowyou've done messed up.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
Well, I got that from my mother, so you're in
good company.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah.
Um okay, so let's talk a littlebit about discipleship in the
local church.
And what are some ways in whichyou have seen uh discipleship
flourish uh within churchcontext, whether it be through
preaching through ordiscipleship through preaching
(10:44):
or personal relationships, uhmentoring young believers
one-on-one, D groups, whateverit might be, what are some
things that you've observed tobe effective and helpful?
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
I think that I think that we have got a good uh a
good model unfolding.
Um when I first got here, andbecause there was really not a
lot of that going on, it wasonly in the in the structure of
a Sunday school and the ABF.
So there was nothing reallygoing on outside of that.
And so there'd be this reallykind of just a monologue.
(11:13):
It was just kind of an aninstruction period only, and and
most of the time that justdoesn't take.
There isn't that you know, thatapplication, this life on life
with other people.
And and so we had that, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
There is there is merit forthat.
But I think that where uh itstarted to shift was we started
to place an emphasis on um uh ongetting involved in each other's
(11:35):
lives.
Um you know, what you've donewith uh with your doctrinal uh
project and what you you've donewith uh stressing now we're into
these community groups.
I I think that the homes aresuch a wonderful thing.
And one thing that I, when Ifirst got here, uh even as the
assistant, um, and little did Irealize it, but there was a
discipleship component withthat, is I visited people in
(11:58):
their homes.
And I would sit in their homesand talk about, you know, the
things of the Lord and and talk,but it was almost in kind of an
informal catechizing of the kidof the of the families.
I think that there's much to besaid about getting outside the
walls.
The walls are important inclassrooms, which we're doing
with the institute and Sundayschools and ABS, those are
important.
Uh however, getting outside thewalls and getting into the realm
(12:22):
of hospitality, whichhospitality is huge for
discipleship.
And I think that's that that's avery important part.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I was really influenced by J.T.
English's book, DeepDiscipleship, uh, where he he
really kind of teases out.
He actually had a that was a lotof influence on my doctoral
work, um, where he's arguingkind of for like a for a
pendulum swing back to learningcenters, but he distinguishes
(12:49):
between uh teaching, I think hecalls them teaching centers and
community centers.
And identifying the purpose of aof a gathering, is this for
building community or is thisfor teaching or learning?
And what he says is is that onewill take the primary over the
(13:09):
other.
You can't primarily do both.
You will do both in thosesettings, but is this a
community-focused thing, or isthis and so having kind of okay,
so if you're in the if you're inthe Bible institute and you're
coming for community, you're youyou don't have the right
expectation.
If you're coming to a communitygroup and you're wanting to go
through systematic theology, youyou don't you'll have the right
(13:32):
expectation.
And so clearly identifying whatthis group, what this gathering
is primarily focused on, I thinkit's helpful because you need
community and teaching fordiscipleship.
I mean, when Jesus gives thediscipleship mandate, he tells
them to go and make disciples ofall nations by what?
(13:52):
Teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you.
And I am with you always.
There's fellowship and communitythere until the end of the age,
baptizing the name of Father,Son, the Holy Spirit.
And so I think it's what'shelpful is is helping to
distinguish which spaces, thepurpose of space is by having
both.
We in the previous we talkedabout uh episode, I think we
(14:13):
talked about the arms in theairplane with evangelism being
one side and discipleship beingthe other.
Well, if we were flying thediscipleship plane, I think we
have learning centers andcommunity centers where that
balances it out, but you stillare centered around the word
about uh fostering uh uhfriendships, faith formation,
(14:36):
fellowship.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Those are all I think those those those I like
the illustration of the of theairplane.
One thing that I have donepersonally in the last ten years
is that I have intentionallyformed uh small groups of men,
uh anywhere from two to four,and we have studied books, uh
thematic books um uh concerningdiscipleship, concerning uh you
(15:01):
know the life of Christ andthings like that.
And and getting men together towork through uh biblical based
books that focus on you knowgrowing in in the faith.
I I found that to be sorewarding uh because one they
were committed to a certaintime, uh secondly, there was
directed material, uh, and andthirdly, they had to prepare
(15:23):
before they came.
And and I I have benefited somuch from just investing in men
in those small group settings.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah, I think informal but formal.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
So uh I do not believe there is something that
we would say is the model ofdiscipleship.
People, when we talk aboutdiscipleship in the local
church, they want to run toTitus chapter two.
Yeah.
And here's the model (15:43):
older women to younger men women,
older men to younger men.
I would say, no, that is amodel.
Uh, and that is a helpful model.
And so you can have theone-on-one mentoring type of
model, you can have a communitygroup model.
I mean, think about somethingthat we're working on
implementing called what we callthe discipleship pathway, where
(16:05):
we're looking how do we movepeople from the big gathering,
corporate worship, to communitygroups, to discipleship groups,
to the institute, and thenultimately from the institute
back into leading in corporateworship.
And I think about Jesus' modelof discipleship.
That's kind of what gee a littlebit of mostly Jesus and then
some Paul, kind of formed outdiscipleship pathway.
(16:28):
But you see Jesus in his largeform discipleship, a great crowd
gathered around him.
And we have our corporatediscipleship being the Sunday
morning gathering, singing,preaching, praying, seeing,
reading the word.
It all centers around that bigthing, and the preaching moment
(16:49):
being the pinnacle.
And so, and that's that's to thecrowds.
But then Jesus had his communitygroup.
He had the twelve, and he wasmuch more intentional there,
investing in them, teaching themat a more intimate level.
He would give parables to thelarge crowds, and then they'd
come and say, Can you explainthe meaning of this?
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
And then even take it smaller, take three guys to
the mountains figuration.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Alright, so now Jesus goes from the the the
corporate to the community, thenhis D group uh is that he had
Peter, James, and John.
That's right.
So he had the inner circle ofguys, uh and that was even the
most intimate in training thosemen at a deeper level than the
twelve.
But Jesus never started aninstitute.
unknown (17:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Paul did, I think, and we would I think it's in
Acts 19 at the Hall or 20 at theHall of Tyrannus.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Where he was this is a place where Paul was standing
up and declaring and instructingabout gospel truths.
And so when I think about how aninstitute works in the church
for discipleship, each group,right, corporate's the largest,
and uh, you know, you've got acouple hundred there, D groups,
those are gonna be multiplegroups, 12 or so, and it keeps
(18:06):
getting a little bit smaller.
It's right.
And to the point where, youknow, when you start doing like
an institute, these are thepeople that are going, this is
deep discipleship.
That's right.
This is this is very much you'redoing work, and not everyone has
that capacity.
Not everyone's called to thateither.
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
And so understanding on the discipleship pathway,
it's not about completing thewhole thing, but it's being
involved in something.
And I think that's what we'retrying to do and do well for
local church.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
I think you got a vision, and it's a good vision,
is that we want to raisechurchmen, we want to raise
leaders, we want to raisedeacons and elders, we want to
raise you know vocationalpastors, we want to plant
churches.
Um, one thing I would tell younguh uh ascribing guys, because
I've done this myself, is makesure that you're in environments
(18:52):
where it's not all output.
You need input, you need to bereceiving too.
I'm in an environment where Ihave I have men that speak into
my life.
I I'm in a Sunday schoolstructure where I don't teach
every week.
I set under teaching.
There are men that are gifted,and that I am helping them
exercise their gift, and I'mreceiving.
(19:13):
I think that we need to bereceivers.
Uh, we need to be able to haveour own souls nurtured and and
and to grow because we arepastors, but we're we're
followers in Christians first.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
And so we need that grow.
We need that.
If you're always I've I've I'veseen Christians through the
years that all they did wasoutput, output, output.
And that's just that's an easyrecipe to dying on the vine, so
to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
See, that's that's burnout, that's gonna run the
well dry.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
And you can't give uh living water out of a dry
well.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Yeah, and no matter what level of sermon prep and
how life-giving it is, becauseit is, I mean, uh my the best
part about preaching ispreparation.
It is.
Without question, sitting down,Bible open, mining the
scriptures, praying, prayingthrough, uh, and just just
feasting on God's word to thepoint where I think good
(20:08):
preaching, this is a whole otherpodcast too, uh that is that is
seen and received comes fromgood preparation.
And it's almost like I havefeasted on this meal, uh, and I
am I am so full, I gotta shareit.
Also, or like, hey, this swordcut deep this week.
(20:30):
Um, and I am just now recoveringfrom my wounds, but I gotta
deliver that.
And and I've had I've had bothwhere like I'm just like
bursting at the seams, notbecause I love to stand in front
of people, because I spoileralert, I don't.
Yeah, uh, but I love I lovemining God's word.
I I've said many times I couldwrite sermons and never preach
them.
Yeah, but it does feelincomplete.
(20:51):
I gotta get it out.
I gotta get it out.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
And sometimes you have uh we have so much.
Um, but I I would also tellyoung preachers um is is to
understand that theeffectiveness of your ministry
is only going to be as effectiveas your close walk to the Lord.
You have got to, you've got tominister and even preach out of
the fullness of your closenessto Christ.
(21:13):
That is the fundamental uhdifference between in in
anointed preaching, so to speak,and those that are just uh
giving giving a bunch of factsor giving a great outline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
I have witnessed and I have sat and listened to some
preaching and my some of mythoughts have been that man
knows the word, but I'm not surehe knows God.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
A preacher who knows God and may know about God.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Yeah, that's right.
Or studied a text, but n nevergot to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
I heard a man once say that uh uh he listened to uh
uh an actor uh quote the Psalm23 and it was very eloquent.
And they had this old veteranpreacher get up there and and
quoted the psalmist again, andit wasn't as eloquent.
And they asked the actor whatwas the difference between you
and him.
He says, Here's the difference.
(22:04):
I know the psalm, he knows theshepherd.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
It that's powerful.
Uh let's pivot here, talkingtalking about discipleship.
We're we're thankful for theinitiatives that that we're
we're trying to do and why it'simportant to the church.
Um, because that's the missionof the church, is to help people
follow Jesus.
And that's when and I think Ithink you have a really we have
a really healthy culture ofdiscipleship in a church when we
(22:28):
understand that evangelism is asubcategory of that.
Evangelism is front linesdiscipleship, and not it's when
it's taken out, evangelismbecomes a means and an end.
And it's like, no, we now wewant to introduce you to Jesus,
and then we want to help you getto know Jesus, and we then we
(22:49):
want to get to the point whereyou are introducing people to
Jesus and helping them get toknow Jesus because that's
generational discipleship.
That's what we want to do.
Um so you've got uh a newinitiative going on.
Um you're in a state oftransition in life, you're
coming up to the conclusion ofyour vocational pastoral
ministry.
(23:10):
Like you said, we don't everretire, we just get reassigned.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
And so you've begun, uh, let me get this right, New
Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
New Day Mercies.
It's a uh social media.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
Just briefly about that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
Well, it it started uh really about probably uh
maybe 15 years ago when Istarted writing a daily
devotional for the church.
It's called the Quinnesset, theQBC Daily Nugget, and I was
writing this devotional, and Ithere's probably four four
thousand of them out there now.
I've written uh so many of them,and uh it became just a venue
(23:42):
for me to to to inject truthinto those who would be
interested.
And and and God has has reallytaken that, I mean, worldwide,
and there's a there's a largedistribution, and so but I knew
that I was winding down in in aregular uh pulpit ministry, but
I also believe that that God hasgifted me to to write.
(24:03):
Okay, and so I started doingsome uh some short video
devotionals during COVID just tokeep connected with our people.
Well, I had some ex-Navy friendsand guys that said we continue
to do this.
So I saw that eventually thiswould this would uh fade away as
a ministry of Quinescent, andrightly so, but I knew that I
still wanted to do and injecttruth through social media.
(24:26):
Okay.
So that's what New Day Merciesuh has evolved to.
We we post scriptural pictureswith uh that we write
devotionals, we do video.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
So like so like a daily encouragement ministry.
That's what it really is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
And if you look on the bio and the Facebook page,
it is a uh it is a daily uhencouragement ministry of the
word.
It has video, it has scripture,it has devotion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
So how could someone find it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
All they do is go on Facebook and just search uh New
Day Mercies.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
New Day Mercies.
New Day Mercies and then justlike and follow the page.
That's all they have to do.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Like and follow the page, and uh and we will uh
occasionally uh advertise it onour own personal Facebook page.
And I eventually I want to uhmaybe broaden that uh to what
we're gonna do to uh now weinclude uh book recommendations
and those type of things, andmaybe uh it come it it evolves
into a website with you know adaily blog or whatever.
(25:19):
But for now, um we've had yourresponse to it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
And are you primarily through Facebook right
now?
Yeah, right now.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
All right, so so New Day Mercies, you can search the
page, you can you can like,follow, and you'd get daily
content that would just andeventually when we do get ready
to leave here, we will provideum similar to what you've done
with yours, either um you know,the the Sub Slack or um uh
Substack, or we'll do a mailchip where people want to sign
(25:46):
up to receive their day toreceive the daily devotional via
email or something.
We're gonna do that as well.
SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
Yeah, okay, and I'm sure you'll have instruction for
that through the page.
So all right, so great.
Um again, uh New Day MerciesFacebook page.
Uh like, follow, subscribe,whatever you do on that, and
that way you can uh stay stayabreast with content.
And then as you're releasingsome new stuff, you'll post to
listeners there.
We will okay.
Great, great.
Um, I'm excited about that.
Uh, I think I'm a follower tooon that, but my Facebook days,
(26:16):
I'm I'm very hit and miss onsocial.
I need to get it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I know there's so much out therethat's not good on social media,
so my desire was just to floodit with good stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
That's right.
Yeah, that's good.
Uh all right.
Let's let's wrap up ourconversation here with just
encouragement for the nextgeneration.
You know, for a while there, Iwas the next generation, but
right now, I feel like I'm justthe middle generation.
You are.
When I get called a young guy, Ikind of chuckle.
(26:45):
And and and I'm at the pointnow.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
You should probably correct that person.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
I I'm just I'm like, well, I'm glad you still feel
that way about me.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
That's right.
But there is a widening gapoccurring between you and the
younger.
But you're in a position now,and and you're in a very
influential position that youknow the future uh where we're
at and in our culture, I believethat there is a spiritual hunger
that's occurring in youngpeople, uh, and even in in not
(27:13):
so young people.
There is a spiritual hunger thatwe have an opportunity to really
uh do a good work in ourgeneration.
And we see some of the oldergeneration, we saw John
MacArthur recently, Vody Bachmango to be with the Lord, R.C.
Sproul.
So it's time, and and you are ofthat.
And it's time for us to uh seizethe moment uh that we have.
(27:34):
And I believe that you have anopportunity to uh to really
impact, and for what we need todo is we need to make sure we
encourage Christians that thesemay seem dark times, but the
light gr shines brighter in thedarkest.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
I have no pessimism about the future of the church.
No, I am extremely optimistic,and some people say, Oh, that's
you know, that sounds like beingpost-mill.
No, I'm not saying that.
What I am saying is that I thinkthat there is a bright future.
I do too.
I think you see a little bit oflike a Charlie Kirk effect, you
(28:08):
know, that's that's beenhappening in recent time.
I'm excited, and I look at uhdarkness around not as not as
opposition, it is, but asopportunity.
That we can be a city on a hill,we can be a light in the midst
of darkness, and we live in aregion of the country in in New
England that is uh woefullyunchurched, and it's
(28:33):
opportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
And so I think it extends even into the cultural
south, where it's uh it's it'sshallow, and uh there may be an
easy believism that'smasquerading as Christianity.
I I also think though that wehave the opportunity before us
uh to see the weaning of thechurch.
Uh, because you're not gonna beable to be a fringe Christian.
(28:55):
You're not gonna be able to be anominal Christian if there is
such a thing.
You're gonna have to uh be allin or all out.
Because I think the pressure onthe church is gonna be such that
we're gonna have almost need tobecome communal.
It's almost like full circle thebook of Acts again.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Yeah, you got Acts 2 again.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
And that's wonderful for us, is because I believe the
joy that we experience, the joyof the Lord, the presence of the
Lord, will be so intensified aswe come together for the purpose
of the gospel.
So it's exciting ties, but it'snot exciting ties if you just
want to be nominal and you wantto be on the fringe.
I think you'll be a casualty.
SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
We are the pillar and buttress of the truth.
And we live in a world that ismessy, is confused, and is in a
state of chaos.
And we are the pillar of truth.
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
And that's the opportunistic times in which we
live.
Because I I my burden is to seethe church embrace the metaphors
that we are.
You know, Christ is the head orthe body, uh, the husband, the
bride, the vine, the branches.
I want to see the church.
Church really grasp what itmeans to be in union with Christ
and the radical implicationsthat is for culture.
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Okay.
So let's bring it all fullcircle.
Twenty-three years.
SPEAKER_01 (30:12):
It'll be twenty-four and a half when we're going to
be.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Twenty-four.
So twenty-four years.
What would you say to youngerpastors, leaders, or Christians
who want to remain faithful overthe long haul?
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Number one, never ever, ever write a resignation
letter on a Monday.
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
Or or just don't hit send.
SPEAKER_01 (30:32):
Or don't sit send.
I said I probably have Iprobably have 50 of them on my
hard drive.
But uh always realize to befaithful.
Number one, you have to beconvinced that you didn't choose
this.
You were chosen for this.
And that and that's that'severything.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
That's that's being a pastor, it's being a leader,
and it's being a Christian.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
Absolutely.
That's everything.
You better have that sense of ofuh even if you want to say it,
divine handcuffs upon you whereI can't do anything but Jesus
looks at Peter.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Where are you guys do you guys want to go now?
Jeremiah.
To where will we to whom shallwe go?
Peter says, You have the wordsof eternal life.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
And if you have that, you may want to walk away
and you may feel like walkingaway, and you may take a step,
but you won't be able to.
So the first thing is have areal sense of divine constraint.
The second thing is to live inthe unseen world more than the
seen, and let the motivation beto hear well done, thou good and
faithful servant.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
And those two things, I think divine
constraint, persevering to hear,well done, thou good and
faithful servant, those will bethe the two pillars, the two
structures that will rule theday in your pastoral ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
I would add a third one, learn to rest in God's
grace.
SPEAKER_01 (31:46):
I have not done that well, and probably that's why I
didn't say that.
Uh I have probably rolled theinstrument hard.
Um last three or four years havebeen pretty pretty significant
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
And uh and and I think that uh I wish I would
have learned to rest.
I I think and I part of it was avictimization of what I was.
Well, I can spend a boil burnall the midnight oil for the
Department of Defense.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
I can do the same thing for the uh and I'm saying
I'm learning that um as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:16):
So but there are times that you do have to burn
the oil.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
Oh yeah.
But you know, you like you justknow when those things like you
do.
Like this this you're notwondering, do I have to you just
know.
And literally, like you just youjust go into the next gear.
I wouldn't have to go.
And sometimes, and andsometimes, you know what, it's
that energy drink or that cup ofcoffee, because this one's gonna
be a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:35):
I had those weeks where I had two sermons and two
funerals uh in one week, and uh,and and people going in for
surgery.
So I had those, but you know,God gives grace for those ramped
up seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I there's been times where I gotinto sermon prep early in the
week and like the sermon cametogether really fast.
And because you knew what wasgonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
So you didn't know what was gonna happen at the end
of the week, and you're gladgood thing it did.
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
So, so now, because I've had a couple of times where
like you know, that happened,and I was like, oh, this is
great.
This might be a fun, and thencome to find out, like, nope,
God was multiplying the timebecause boom, you were gonna hit
this Thursday Friday.
Like, there's been some weekswhere like the sermon came
together really fast, and I go,uh-oh.
(33:23):
That's right.
I go, uh-oh, oh no.
Um, yeah, I would, I just Ithink those are great.
And um, no, I'm thankful.
I'm thankful to have thisconversation with you.
Uh, just to just a pull fromyour your multiple years of
experience, the highs and thelows.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Um well, I would conclude with this.
It's been a real pleasure, andit's been what a journey we've
been on to see where God hastaken you and where you are, and
and to allow us to be togetherthrough these years.
And uh uh it's just as difficultas it is gonna be to leave.
I'm uh I'm confident that thatGod's got his hand on you and
(33:59):
got and on our church.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yeah, uh, I don't think we're gonna let you leave,
but you can keep trying.
Um but yeah, I will say ifanyone's benefited from your
pastoral ministry the most, ithas to be me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Well, thank you, Doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing
God Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You could reach out at questionsat pleasing godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians 4 3, this is the
will of God, yoursanctification.
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