October 21, 2025 • 36 mins
What if the strongest marriages are built on simple, steady friendship? We dive into how liking your spouse—laughing together, choosing small moments of care, and protecting time that isn’t about the kids—creates a marriage that feels safe, joyful, and resilient. From a spur-of-the-moment golf date to “sushi Sundays” after bedtime, we share real rhythms that keep us connected in the middle of ministry, parenting, and packed calendars.
We anchor the conversation in Scripture: Genesis and Ecclesiastes point to our design for companionship, while the Song of Solomon beautifully names a spouse as both beloved and friend. Love is commanded, but liking is a daily choice—showing up with warmth, curiosity, and preference. We talk about practical tools that actually fit real life: long walks that turn into decision time, laughing to reset tension, and screen-free check-ins that make sure we see each other clearly. When conflict hits, we lean on clear communication, quick forgiveness, and short accounts to keep issues from hardening into distance.
Trials have a way of either isolating or knitting hearts closer. We reflect on walking through loss, late-night ER trips, and everyday stress as teammates, and how leaning on Jesus keeps us tender and honest with each other. A Christ-centered friendship becomes the spine of the relationship, shaping how we speak, forgive, and re-engage when life gets noisy. If you’re married, dating, or simply hungry for better friendships, these habits and heart-postures will help you build a bond that lasts and a home that feels warm. If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon (00:00):
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I had anawesome time to be able to sit
down with my wife and discussmarriage, friendship, and just
cultivating that over the longhaul.
(00:20):
And so I hope that as youlisten to this conversation, it
encourages you, strengthens you,whether you're married or just
thinking about friendships, butultimately that it's a blessing
and that it honors God.
Kate, welcome back.
Katelyn (00:42):
Thanks for having me.
Jon (00:44):
Yeah, my privilege.
Right?
Um, what do you want to talkabout?
Katelyn (00:49):
Uh, I think we're gonna talk about friendships today.
Jon (00:52):
Yes, friendships, they're valuable, they're important.
Uh sometimes they're like hard.
Katelyn (01:00):
Yeah, they can be.
Jon (01:01):
Yeah, and I I don't mean like prickly and thorny, they
can be like that too.
But uh just I mean, think aboutit.
We're in our mid to late 30s,there's a lot going on.
Finding the time forfriendships is probably the
challenge right now, right?
Katelyn (01:17):
I think that's kind of my struggle is fighting the
time.
Jon (01:20):
Yeah, there's a desire there, and I think that's just
natural the way we're created umfor friendships.
But yeah, time is is certainly,I think, an area that you know
that is uh is a challenge.
Um but I think specificallywe're gonna talk about
friendship and marriage and howwe do that well, I think, and um
(01:46):
just make some practicallessons or tips or you know, for
listeners.
But can you think of somethingwe've done recently as friends?
Not not like spouse or orministry partners or work
related, but that's hard for meto parse because I feel like we
just are friends.
Katelyn (02:03):
So it's not like we're doing things as like right now
we're doing things as a husbandwife, right now we're doing
something as mom and dad.
Like I just think that whenwe're together, we're friends.
And so we just enjoy being witheach other.
We do try to go out just thetwo of us.
Um, but that's multifaceted inthat we're we're trying to
(02:25):
engage with each other ashusband and wife, but also we
just enjoy being with each otheras well.
Yeah, I think that's and Ithink that's what's cool about
our marriage.
Yeah.
Is that we have all of thosedifferent like we enjoy being
with each other.
Jon (02:40):
So friends like each other.
Um friends oftentimes have somesort of common interest that
draws them together where theyfind enjoyment in that mutual,
mutually shared interest.
You know, there's there'scertainly an affection for each
other.
Something that we is thereanything that we've done where
(03:03):
because we like each other witha mutual shared interest that
we've that we've gone and donesomething?
Katelyn (03:11):
Yeah, I think like going golfing.
Is that what you mean?
Oh yeah.
Jon (03:15):
Oh, there you go.
We did that just recently,right?
Katelyn (03:17):
Yeah, for my birthday we went, and it's we have a
mutual love of the outdoors, youknow, um being active.
I like golf.
I'm not good at golf, but Ienjoy I enjoy being on the
course and riding around on acart and just laughing.
Jon (03:34):
And um I think we just hit six irons the whole time and we
were out there.
Katelyn (03:37):
I know I did.
Jon (03:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So we're having fun.
Yeah.
Um yeah, that was a friendshipthing.
Katelyn (03:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Jon (03:46):
And I I just remember how enjoyable that was.
And then we sat and had lunchafterwards.
Um so it was a date, but yeah.
It was it was certainly hittingthe criteria of of friendship,
and I think that's important.
So we've been playing this gamerecently.
I don't know if it's a game,but uh on a scale one to ten,
(04:08):
right?
Uh ten being the greatest andone being uh terrible.
How would you rate ourfriendship?
Katelyn (04:17):
Our friendship.
Jon (04:18):
Our friendship.
Uh how about we both say anumber on the count of three?
Don't hesitate this time.
Katelyn (04:24):
Okay.
Jon (04:25):
All right.
One, two, three, seven.
Katelyn (04:30):
What?
Jon (04:30):
I meant nine.
I thought you were gonna golow, so I did one a little bit
lower than I mean, I would havesaid ten, probably.
Um I don't mean that seven.
Katelyn (04:41):
I meant uh so you thought I was gonna go low?
Jon (04:45):
Yeah, so I was just trying to meet you where I was hoping
just compatibility scores saythe same number.
Um I agree with you, nine.
Why is it a nine?
Katelyn (04:54):
Um I don't know if I'd ever rate anything a 10 because
I think there's always room forimprovement.
I think there's always room forgrowth.
Um, but I think our friendshipis really good.
I think we we really try tolaugh with one another.
We sharpen one another as asscripture commands us, you know,
(05:16):
as friends do.
Um, we push each other to bebetter.
Um, at least you push me to bebetter.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I don't I don't know if I push you to be better, but
certain certainly you make me abetter person.
Oh, absolutely.
Katelyn (05:29):
Um as far as healthy relationships go, healthy
friendships, communication, um,having fun, mutual
understanding, mutual enjoyment,I think all those things and so
I want to put a 10, but I'd putus pretty high.
Jon (05:49):
I agree.
Okay, I think and andfriendship is the foundation of
a healthy marriage.
A foundation, not thefoundation, but like if you want
to the the building blocks fora healthy marriage, you need to
be friends with your spouse.
You mean f like husbands, youneed to be friends with your
wife.
(06:09):
And I think you would say thesame thing to wives, like you
need to be friends with yourhusband.
Um, not just parents and youknow, spouses, but that dynamic
of of friendship because I thinkit continues to to help to
cultivate a healthyrelationship.
Katelyn (06:27):
And I've heard uh couples who have been um become
empty nesters, who well, that'swhere sometimes marriages can
fall when when uh they becomeempty nesters, but also um
hearing stories of them havingto like relearn each other and
and kind of become friends againbecause they've kind of lost
(06:49):
that.
And so I think that's been achallenge to us early on to
continue having those connectingpoints, those times of like
reconnection, laughing together.
Um the scripture talks aboutlaughing being medicine to the
soul, and so laughing with oneanother and um kind of always
learning each other as justfriends, like that basic kind of
(07:11):
human connection.
Um I'm hoping that down theroad, you know, we won't have to
have that stage of relearningeach other.
We'll kind of already be likeset off and enjoying life.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Jon (07:24):
I I s certainly agree with you, and I think that we're not
gonna have to do that becausewe're still learning and growing
with with each other now.
Uh friendships are just uhwired into our DNA as human
beings.
Katelyn (07:41):
Right.
Jon (07:42):
When God created Adam, we get to the second chapter of the
Bible, and it is not good thatman should be alone.
And so he creates a helper thatis fit for him.
This is his companion, this ishis sw his wife, this is his
friend, and this is the personthat he's to share life with in
(08:05):
I'm in the closest form.
And so again, as we talk aboutthe foundation of a healthy
marriage, friendship isfoundational to human beings.
We're created for companionshipto get along with with others.
Other passages of scripturethat come to mind, I mean the
Bible certainly talks aboutfriendships, right?
Even in the confines ofmarriage, right?
(08:27):
I mean, Song of Solomon.
Katelyn (08:28):
Yeah, I I have that here.
Song of Solomon Um 5, 16.
It's the bride talking about umher husband.
His mouth is most sweet and heis altogether desirable.
This is my beloved, and this ismy friend, oh daughter of
Jerusalem.
Uh, and I read that, I mean,that's something I would totally
(08:49):
say you are my beloved andyou're also my friend.
And I think that's reallyspecial and sweet.
Jon (08:55):
Okay.
So, what are the benefits offriendship, a healthy friendship
and a healthy marriage?
What does that bring into therelationship?
Katelyn (09:06):
Well, pretty basically enjoyment.
Yes, yes, I enjoying being withsomeone and just feeling
comfortable.
I think a big thing for me isfeeling safe and feeling like I
can be my 100% truest self withyou.
Yeah.
Um, that not even my closest,you know, girlfriends really see
(09:31):
that.
Um, not that I'm hiding myself.
It's just I feel the most who Iam when I'm with you.
Jon (09:38):
Yeah, that's talking vulnerability, transparency.
Totally, yeah.
Katelyn (09:42):
Seeing me at my absolute worst, um at my
absolute best.
Jon (09:48):
Um it's usually at your absolute best.
Um I agree.
Yeah.
I I totally agree.
And those are kind of mytalking points was was joy,
safety, and just this feeling ofconnectedness of and that's
again, I think one of thebeautiful things about being
(10:10):
married to your best friend.
Katelyn (10:12):
Just having a person.
Like knowing that at the end ofthe day, after a long day, like
I have a person.
Like I have someone who knowsme um in so many ways and knows
how my brain works and knows,you know, can see when I'm upset
about something, even if I'mtrying to you know, I you you
just you know me, and um, it's acomfort to have a person.
Jon (10:36):
We've been married now for 12 years.
And I'm glad I got that right.
Yeah.
Katelyn (10:43):
Yeah.
Jon (10:44):
We've been friends for 13 years.
Yeah.
Has our friendship always beenas good as it is today?
Has this grown over time?
Katelyn (10:55):
Yeah, it's grown over time.
I think we were friends um atthe start, but just like any
relationship, just getting toknow and you you learn more and
more.
I always say, I've said thisbefore, but I always say that I
wish I could go back 12, 13years and kind of not start
(11:19):
over, but just kind of relive alittle bit of that time knowing
what I already know about youand how much I love you now.
I think I would see our start alittle bit different.
But yeah, I think we still werewere friends and that
foundation was starting forsure.
Jon (11:40):
And if you think about it, we've got some different
interests.
You like like the Broadway, theshows, and you are uh more
artsy musical.
I'm get the complete oppositeof that.
We both have a competitivenessabout us.
Katelyn (12:05):
Totally, which I actually think is an element of
our friendship that is reallyfun.
Jon (12:10):
I think we both know how to win well and lose well.
Sure.
Uh but I do like winning.
Katelyn (12:16):
Yes, in a while.
Jon (12:18):
Against you.
Katelyn (12:19):
Right.
Jon (12:19):
Yeah, whatever it might be.
Um like bowling is acompetition.
Um ping pong.
Ping pong.
Katelyn (12:27):
I was thinking ping pong, yeah.
Jon (12:28):
I mean, I I I'll try to find a competition in anything.
Katelyn (12:32):
Well, hey, we need ketchup.
Who's going to the store?
Jon (12:35):
Rocks, paper, scissors, right?
Yeah.
Everything's a kind of a yeahin that way.
Yeah.
Katelyn (12:40):
Um, and we've passed that down to our children.
Our children definitely havecaught that.
Jon (12:46):
Disputes are finished with rocks, paper, scissors.
Sure.
Sometimes they want to go bestof three, that's fine.
But we've told them if you go,if you go to rocks, paper,
scissors, the moment you lose,you get up and do the thing that
you're supposed to do.
Katelyn (13:00):
That hurts.
It hurts.
It hurts.
Jon (13:01):
We can do it without grumbling or complaining.
Well, outwardly, maybe.
You might be driving to stopand shop.
Like, oh, I got to get thecatch up.
Um, but one thing that I canreflect on over the years is I
have never felt like myfriendship with you was a duty.
Like, I get to be your friend.
(13:25):
Like, I'm blessed.
I'm the I'm the I'm lucky, butI'm the blessed one in that, and
I mean sometimes I just gottapinch myself.
I'm like, this is real life.
And I'm just so thankful forthat.
And I think that's something webring to the table.
If we're thankful for ourfriendships, we won't take them
for granted.
Katelyn (13:44):
Yeah, I agree.
Jon (13:45):
And uh I hope I don't take our friendship for granted, and
that I'm always trying and andcultivating and not coasting,
you know, because that that tendthat can happen.
Katelyn (13:58):
It can happen.
There and there are seasonswhere you know that that might
get put a little bit on theshelf, um, but only for a
season.
Jon (14:07):
Would you say that we have more in common than we don't?
We both like sports?
Katelyn (14:15):
Yeah, I think the things that we have in common go
further than just surface, see.
Jon (14:21):
We play fantasy football together.
Katelyn (14:23):
Yeah, I mean more of like our love for the Lord and
ministry and our family andthose types of things too.
But by way of just like kind ofsurface outside things, I think
we still have more in commonthan we do not.
Really, the only thing I canthink of is what you've already
(14:43):
shared.
Just kind of I enjoy music andmusical theory.
Jon (14:49):
We went to a we went to a show a couple weeks ago, and I
enjoyed the fact that youenjoyed the show.
Katelyn (14:57):
You enjoyed the first act.
Jon (14:59):
It was okay, it was alright, but what I had great
enjoyment was that this is thething that Caitlin wants to do,
and that brought me joy becauseyou were excited.
Katelyn (15:07):
Yeah.
Jon (15:08):
And was it a sacrifice?
Maybe in some people's eyes.
Did it feel like I wassacrificing anything?
No.
Because my delight in ourfriendship was far more than um
whether or not I wanted to dothat thing.
You wanted to do it.
(15:28):
You wanted to do it with me.
Katelyn (15:30):
Yeah.
Jon (15:30):
So I thought that was, you know, special and that was fun.
Katelyn (15:33):
It's kind of how I view hiking mountains.
Jon (15:37):
Listen, our accountability score is high.
Katelyn (15:40):
I enjoy the I do enjoy the physical exertion and the
time together out in creation,but I don't know if I would
necessarily choose to do itclimbing a 4,000-footer.
Jon (15:55):
We've had some fun times on the mountains, right?
Katelyn (15:57):
Yeah.
It's we have had fun times, andit's always worth it when you
get to the summit, but it's notsomething I'm like, let's go
hiking or even camping.
Jon (16:06):
All right.
We're gonna get back to ohyeah, we we can't.
We can listen.
Uh love the passage from Songof Solomon how uh the wife sees
her husband not just as thebeloved, but as her friend.
You know, I say it often, andsometimes I might get
misunderstood.
Loving others is a command.
(16:28):
Liking is something of achoice.
It's instinct, it's it's youknow, in a sense, instinctual
how we're drawn to certainpeoples.
You can't like everybody.
That doesn't mean hate them ordislike them, but there's only
so much capacity for liking.
Uh we're to love our neighbor.
(16:48):
And so uh, you know, one of thegreatest compliments is I like
you.
And I that means I I you know Ifind joy in you, and I think
that's important to remember.
Another passage that comes tomind is Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes chapter four, andI have it here, verse nine.
Two are better than one becausethey have a good reward for
(17:12):
their toil.
For if they fall, one will beable to lift up his fellow.
But woe to him who is alonewhen he falls and has no one to
lift him up.
Again, if two lie together,they keep warm.
But how can one keep warmalone?
And though a man might prevailagainst one who is alone, two
(17:34):
will withstand him.
A threefold cord is not quicklybroken.
I just think about theprinciple there of simply put,
two is better than one.
Friendships strengthen us.
We are able to help and serveone another.
So if one of us falls down, theother one's right there to help
us help the other get up.
(17:56):
Closeness, as it's even statedthere.
It was cold last night.
Right?
But as like being closetogether, uh, there's just a
principle there of how we cancare for one another in our in
our falling or in just the needsuh of each other.
So I think that's just aanother beautiful passage that
explains and and kind ofhighlights the importance of
(18:19):
having friends and friendship infor us in the context of
marriage.
I want to talk about here kindof cultivating that friendship.
Some friendships kind of comenaturally, but you can't just
ride on that.
There needs to be what I wouldsay intentionality.
And so when it comes to beingfriends with your spouse, what
(18:44):
are ways in which you can beintentional in cultivating that
friendship?
Because I I don't think youjust drift into best friend
mode.
No, it takes effort, right?
Katelyn (18:56):
Yeah, I I do think it takes effort.
And I think it just comes downto the everyday little just
little moments of care.
And um for example, you hurtyour back this week, and just I
tried to, hey, do you needsomething?
Hey, have you taken yourmedicine today?
Have you um, you know, how areyou feeling today?
(19:20):
And just showing care and andthinking of that person, of your
spouse in little ways.
It it's hard because I feellike this crossover of you know,
dating and cultivating amarriage, but and also
friendship kind of gets muddiedwhen you're married a little
bit, but I think taking the timeand doing things together,
(19:43):
making an effort to see oneanother, hear one another,
growing trust with one another,I think over the years,
especially just being loyal andtrustworthy with everything,
everything.
Jon (19:59):
Yeah.
Um I think let me think aboutsome practical ways.
Yeah, we just we some biblicalprinciples there.
What are practical ways ofbeing intentional in cultivating
friendship?
If we've said it once, we'veprobably said it a bunch of
times on other podcasts, butI'll go back to it.
Going on walks together is avery practical way in which we
(20:21):
can cultivate a friendshipbecause uh we frequently and we
prioritize walking together.
We do a two-mile walk, 30 someodd minutes.
We gotta talk to each other.
Katelyn (20:31):
Yeah.
Jon (20:32):
And I think it helps us to not just talk about the big
things, right, but to talk abouteverything.
Katelyn (20:40):
Which I do.
Jon (20:43):
Yes, I mean it's very stereotypical.
You've got more words in a daythan I do.
We share what's going on,what's in our minds, what's in
our hearts.
Sometimes we talk about trivialthings.
Katelyn (20:56):
But I think that's again, healthy communication, so
that we're not just comingtogether when we have a big
problem we need to solve, orlike this really heavy thing is
weighing on me, or you're notdoing this, or and oh, I think
we definitely have um when itwhen it's come down to it, I
think we've made either some bigdecisions, bolstered each other
(21:16):
up in a in a decision orsomething on a walk.
Like kind of reason.
We're resolved to do this, orwe're gonna we're gonna confront
this like this.
And I think another person Butalso like what do you want for
dinner tonight?
Those type of questions, too.
Jon (21:34):
Yes, those ones.
Um okay.
On another another another kindof practical thing um that I
was thinking about laughingtogether.
I think it's so it can be solike underrated, but really
laughing and finding humor andjoy in each other.
Katelyn (21:59):
I've never met anyone that makes me laugh more than
you do.
Jon (22:03):
I'm not I don't think I'm that funny.
Katelyn (22:05):
You are really funny.
Jon (22:08):
And you're laughing right now.
Katelyn (22:11):
Because I'm actually thinking of things that you've
done or said that have made melaugh.
I just um Yeah, but but thething is sometimes you've gotten
me into giggling fits inchurch, and that's when I'm
preaching?
No.
Jon (22:25):
Good.
Um Well, I don't know.
Katelyn (22:28):
People on the outside that see me, like they probably
think I'm so stuffy and you docarry kind of a sternness on
your on your face when you'rejust kind of just there.
You you're very stern on yourface.
Jon (22:42):
I d I don't it's just who I am, I guess, but um I'm glad I
make you laugh.
Yeah, you do.
Good.
Being intentional, going onwalks, laughing together.
Katelyn (22:54):
Just doing fun things together.
Jon (22:56):
Do fun things together.
Katelyn (22:58):
Do fun things.
I mean, we our capacity is kindof small.
We can't get out a lot, but um,you know, even we'll take all
the kids outside and we'll playkickball or um we work out
together sometimes.
Like we just we do things thatwe enjoy together, um, and it
(23:20):
just makes it that much better.
Jon (23:21):
I want to give this real practical to if any parents are
listening.
Do fun things together thatdoes not always center around
your children.
So, you know, hey, we're gonnago see this show because bring
in the kids.
You that's fine, and that'sgood, and that's good family
time, and it's good forconnecting, but there needs to
(23:44):
be a separate category for yourspouse for the purpose of
friendship.
Um, not to check a box, butagain for cultivating that
because you'll have a season ofof kids in the home, and kind of
bring it back to what you weresaying about the empty nester.
There's gonna be a time whenthey're gone and you don't want
to have to reintroduce yourselfto your spouse.
(24:07):
And who are you again?
Oh, I didn't know this issomething you enjoyed doing.
You know, we were so wrapped upfor men, I was so wrapped up in
my work, so you know, focusedon trying to be a good provider
and a good father, that I forgotto be a friend to my wife.
You don't want to get there.
And if you do get there, it'snot that it's not without hope.
(24:30):
We can turn around from thatand take some of the practical
steps about being intentional.
Um and again, kind ofcultivating that in a way that
is for the glory of God.
Katelyn (24:41):
I was thinking too, you know, growing up, um, and I
don't know if we're gonna talkabout having friends or if
that's gonna be a part two, butum my dad always told me a man
who has friends must showhimself friendly.
And I carried that with methroughout my whole life.
That's KJV.
ESV is reads definitelydifferently, but but even in
(25:04):
marriage, just being pleasant,like for me, being pleasant and
being someone that you want tobe around, you know, being
friendly.
The only time you'll reallyprobably find me not being super
friendly is first thing in themorning.
Like the first kind of likefive minutes of our walk, I like
(25:26):
just have gotten out of bed andput on my workout clothes and
just like started walking, andI'm kind of like I'm tiptoeing
and like a zombie zombie.
Jon (25:34):
Yeah, I'm tiptoeing and so you say the first word, you want
to break the ice, like thenonce it's my thought.
Katelyn (25:41):
You are very very tribur in the morning.
And I don't think I'm like nota morning person.
I just think it takes You'renot a morning person.
No, it just takes me a fewminutes to wake up.
Jon (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, I would I would say that I don't I wouldn't say
Caitlin's a morning person.
Not that you like you need, youknow, the crazy morning person
either.
Katelyn (26:02):
Like the soonest I can get into bed.
Jon (26:06):
Yeah, you're like a 12 to 8 person.
Katelyn (26:09):
Moral of the story is I really I really love bed.
Jon (26:13):
Yeah, that that's not something we have in common.
That's the one of the differentthe differences.
Okay, let's just talk brieflythen on how do you react or what
do you do when you are mad atyour friend, or there is
conflict with your friend who isyour spouse.
(26:35):
How does that affect thefriendship?
Katelyn (26:39):
How do you Well, we're not laughing?
Jon (26:43):
We're not laughing, that's for sure.
Or how about this when whenthere's tension in the
relationship?
Katelyn (26:51):
Well, I do think it's good to have tension in that
it's not good to have tension,but I think when done properly,
the tension can turn into thatiron sharpening iron moment.
Well, communication, we'vetalked about communication
before, but I think you can'ttalk about that enough.
Well, right, right.
(27:12):
I think that is huge in thisrelationship, but also in
friendships.
You have to have communication.
Um, and sometimes what we sayor do will either be
misconstrued or will actually besinful, um, and it's gonna get
talked about.
And it's not fun and it's ickysometimes, but I think it's
(27:37):
important and it it needs tohappen.
Jon (27:39):
And our friendship has been forged through those moments.
So if we talk about like howhas our friendship grown over
time, I I think it's beenstrengthened through conflict.
Katelyn (27:49):
Yeah, I also um was thinking about trials, how
trials build uh relationships aswell.
But but I think our friendshiphelps in those moments because
we can have real honestconversations.
I can really truly say how I'mfeeling or confront you when
you've done something.
(28:10):
It's not easy, but I think thedeeper your friendship is, the
more open and honest you canhave these conversations.
Jon (28:21):
Right.
And there's already resolved inour mind, like this
friendship's not going away,right?
So No.
Katelyn (28:26):
Right, so it's like we're in it.
We're in it forever.
Jon (28:29):
Yeah, that's right.
And so it's either gonna behealthy or unhealthy.
Yeah.
But it's not gonna be there ornot.
Katelyn (28:37):
Yeah.
Jon (28:37):
And so yeah, as we as we think about conflict intention,
practically we learn to forgive.
We learn to extend forgivenessand to receive forgiveness.
And sometimes both of those arehard.
Katelyn (28:53):
Um we as quick as possible.
Jon (28:55):
As quick as possible.
Not not not to sweep sweep anissue under the rug.
We resolve it, we move on fromthat.
And in resolution, we resolveto not bring it up again.
If there, whatever the thingis, if I've forgiven you, you've
forgiven me, uh, we lay it downand it doesn't come back again.
Uh there's also been times andseasons where we felt
(29:17):
disconnected from each other,and I think that's more you
feeling that from me, and maybeI'm not even aware.
Katelyn (29:25):
Yeah.
Jon (29:27):
And so that's something where we have to we have to talk
about this.
Like, I'm not feeling, youknow, connected to you.
What's going on?
And having those conversations.
Katelyn (29:38):
Well, because sometimes when you are so comfortable
with someone, it is easy to kindof just coast, kind of become
roommate type of situation.
Not that you're not that that'sbad, because we're we've got a
routine in our home and we knowour roles and we know what we're
doing.
But yeah, sometimes that canfeel a little just Not good.
(30:00):
And we we kind of need to likeliven things up.
Jon (30:05):
Okay, so when that happens and you're feeling like
disconnected from your spouse,that's the time to press pause
and do a check-in.
That's the don't don't keepletting that that go for a long
period of time because you'renot going to get good outcomes
without addressing that.
(30:25):
And so that's where hire ababysitter, uh, if you've got
kids in the home, beintentional, go do something, go
on a date, do something for thepurpose of reconnecting.
Let's talk.
Katelyn (30:40):
Yeah.
Jon (30:40):
Let's talk about what's going on.
Reconnect as friends.
Katelyn (30:44):
There's gonna be seasons where that just happens,
where we're kind of shipspassing in the night.
We're busy, we've got thingsgoing on, we've got m m high
levels of ministry, or you'vegot multiple meetings, or where
we're kind of just, you know,kind of passing, and that's
normal, that's gonna happen.
And but taking those times ofhaving short accounts almost of
(31:08):
um when we had lots of littles,I mean we still have lots of
littles, but it felt likelittles.
Lots of littles.
Um, we made it a priority.
We couldn't go out uh often.
We didn't have we have sitters,but to do a weekly outing is
not doable.
(31:29):
Right.
We made it a point to do sushiSundays.
You remember those?
Yeah, those were fun.
So we would get the kids to bedafter church in the evening,
get them right to bed, we'dorder sushi, um, and we'd watch
a show, football, whatever itwas.
We'd just hang out or not, andsit and talk or whatever.
Um and it was kind of like anon-negotiable the children
(31:54):
could not be downstairs.
They had to go to bed.
Um, they knew it was sushiSunday night, they knew it was
mom and dad's night, and yeah,they were dates, but also that
was our time in the midst ofchaos, in the midst of busyness,
not being able to go out ondates or whatever, um, to still
set aside a time.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Um and can be done with littlecapacity, you know.
Jon (32:19):
I agree.
And uh, those are those areimportant.
Another practical thing isdon't make all of your you know,
time with your spouse, yourfriendship time center around
watching TV.
Sometimes you need to spendtime together with the TV off
and just looking at one another,phones down, no scrolling, no
screens, real people.
Yeah.
Well, we would be remiss if wedidn't talk about uh just
(32:42):
briefly here uh the reason thatI think we have a healthy
friendship that we believe it isa 97.
Was that the score we gave?
Yeah.
A nine and a seven.
All right.
And that's our commitment andcloseness to Jesus.
We both love our Savior, uh,we're committed to Christ, and
(33:06):
as we are seeking to grow in Himand Christ be formed in us,
that draws us closer to eachother.
Because the I mean, there's nogreater friend than Jesus.
He's the perfect friend.
And if we want to have goodfriendships, the more we are
like Jesus, the better thequality of our friendships will
(33:27):
be, at least the better qualityfriend we will be to others.
And so ultimately, as you and Iare both pursuing the same Lord
and the same goals and the sameoutcomes and the same desire of
godliness, it'll draw us closertogether as friends.
Christ at the center of yourfriendship is the way we were
(33:50):
designed to have any and allfriendships.
And so I just want to, again,we do a lot of intentional
things together, but that'sthat's the backbone, that's the
spinal cord of our friendship,right there, is that uh we both
are trusting, loving, andfollowing Jesus.
And that again helps us to keepshort accounts.
Yeah.
(34:10):
Because when I do wrong to you,I'm not just doing wrong to
you.
Katelyn (34:13):
Yeah.
Jon (34:14):
You know, I've there's more to it than that.
And so that's why I want toseek to be the godly friend that
God has called me to be, thatChrist commands us to be, and
that we have the opportunity tobe, especially in our
relationship here.
Any other thoughts onfriendship?
Katelyn (34:32):
We touched on it a little bit, but just how going
through trials with someonebrings you closer together as
well.
And we've gone through our fairshare of trials, um and whether
within our relationship orjust, you know, things that
we've endured in our life umbeing together.
(34:53):
And I think going through thosemoments when you're down on
your knees with someone, whenyou're crying and it's coming
from deep within, um, and it'sjust all coming out, you know,
through tears, you know, thatperson you're leaning on that
just brings you together.
Yeah.
Um, when you're going through afiery trial together, um, the
(35:13):
loss of, you know, pregnanciesand those things, um, you know,
hurt children, ER visits, likethose things, you know, relying
on what having someone to relyon and go through those things
with, you come out of thatstronger um just relationally.
Jon (35:32):
That's great.
Katelyn (35:33):
Yeah.
Jon (35:33):
Thanks for letting me be your friend.
Katelyn (35:35):
Yeah, I enjoy you.
Um, I think we should do a parttwo on friendships.
Jon (35:43):
Let's do it.
Katelyn (35:43):
Okay.
Jon (35:44):
That obviously will be for our next conversation.
Well, I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You could reach out atquestions at pleasing
godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians four three.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show
focused on helping Christians tothink biblically, engage
practically, and live faithfullyfor the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell.
And on this episode, I had anawesome time to be able to sit
down with my wife and discussmarriage, friendship, and just
cultivating that over the longhaul.
(00:20):
And so I hope that as youlisten to this conversation, it
encourages you, strengthens you,whether you're married or just
thinking about friendships, butultimately that it's a blessing
and that it honors God.
Kate, welcome back.
Katelyn (00:42):
Thanks for having me.
Jon (00:44):
Yeah, my privilege.
Right?
Um, what do you want to talkabout?
Katelyn (00:49):
Uh, I think we're gonna talk about friendships today.
Jon (00:52):
Yes, friendships, they're valuable, they're important.
Uh sometimes they're like hard.
Katelyn (01:00):
Yeah, they can be.
Jon (01:01):
Yeah, and I I don't mean like prickly and thorny, they
can be like that too.
But uh just I mean, think aboutit.
We're in our mid to late 30s,there's a lot going on.
Finding the time forfriendships is probably the
challenge right now, right?
Katelyn (01:17):
I think that's kind of my struggle is fighting the
time.
Jon (01:20):
Yeah, there's a desire there, and I think that's just
natural the way we're created umfor friendships.
But yeah, time is is certainly,I think, an area that you know
that is uh is a challenge.
Um but I think specificallywe're gonna talk about
friendship and marriage and howwe do that well, I think, and um
(01:46):
just make some practicallessons or tips or you know, for
listeners.
But can you think of somethingwe've done recently as friends?
Not not like spouse or orministry partners or work
related, but that's hard for meto parse because I feel like we
just are friends.
Katelyn (02:03):
So it's not like we're doing things as like right now
we're doing things as a husbandwife, right now we're doing
something as mom and dad.
Like I just think that whenwe're together, we're friends.
And so we just enjoy being witheach other.
We do try to go out just thetwo of us.
Um, but that's multifaceted inthat we're we're trying to
(02:25):
engage with each other ashusband and wife, but also we
just enjoy being with each otheras well.
Yeah, I think that's and Ithink that's what's cool about
our marriage.
Yeah.
Is that we have all of thosedifferent like we enjoy being
with each other.
Jon (02:40):
So friends like each other.
Um friends oftentimes have somesort of common interest that
draws them together where theyfind enjoyment in that mutual,
mutually shared interest.
You know, there's there'scertainly an affection for each
other.
Something that we is thereanything that we've done where
(03:03):
because we like each other witha mutual shared interest that
we've that we've gone and donesomething?
Katelyn (03:11):
Yeah, I think like going golfing.
Is that what you mean?
Oh yeah.
Jon (03:15):
Oh, there you go.
We did that just recently,right?
Katelyn (03:17):
Yeah, for my birthday we went, and it's we have a
mutual love of the outdoors, youknow, um being active.
I like golf.
I'm not good at golf, but Ienjoy I enjoy being on the
course and riding around on acart and just laughing.
Jon (03:34):
And um I think we just hit six irons the whole time and we
were out there.
Katelyn (03:37):
I know I did.
Jon (03:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So we're having fun.
Yeah.
Um yeah, that was a friendshipthing.
Katelyn (03:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Jon (03:46):
And I I just remember how enjoyable that was.
And then we sat and had lunchafterwards.
Um so it was a date, but yeah.
It was it was certainly hittingthe criteria of of friendship,
and I think that's important.
So we've been playing this gamerecently.
I don't know if it's a game,but uh on a scale one to ten,
(04:08):
right?
Uh ten being the greatest andone being uh terrible.
How would you rate ourfriendship?
Katelyn (04:17):
Our friendship.
Jon (04:18):
Our friendship.
Uh how about we both say anumber on the count of three?
Don't hesitate this time.
Katelyn (04:24):
Okay.
Jon (04:25):
All right.
One, two, three, seven.
Katelyn (04:30):
What?
Jon (04:30):
I meant nine.
I thought you were gonna golow, so I did one a little bit
lower than I mean, I would havesaid ten, probably.
Um I don't mean that seven.
Katelyn (04:41):
I meant uh so you thought I was gonna go low?
Jon (04:45):
Yeah, so I was just trying to meet you where I was hoping
just compatibility scores saythe same number.
Um I agree with you, nine.
Why is it a nine?
Katelyn (04:54):
Um I don't know if I'd ever rate anything a 10 because
I think there's always room forimprovement.
I think there's always room forgrowth.
Um, but I think our friendshipis really good.
I think we we really try tolaugh with one another.
We sharpen one another as asscripture commands us, you know,
(05:16):
as friends do.
Um, we push each other to bebetter.
Um, at least you push me to bebetter.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I don't I don't know if I push you to be better, but
certain certainly you make me abetter person.
Oh, absolutely.
Katelyn (05:29):
Um as far as healthy relationships go, healthy
friendships, communication, um,having fun, mutual
understanding, mutual enjoyment,I think all those things and so
I want to put a 10, but I'd putus pretty high.
Jon (05:49):
I agree.
Okay, I think and andfriendship is the foundation of
a healthy marriage.
A foundation, not thefoundation, but like if you want
to the the building blocks fora healthy marriage, you need to
be friends with your spouse.
You mean f like husbands, youneed to be friends with your
wife.
(06:09):
And I think you would say thesame thing to wives, like you
need to be friends with yourhusband.
Um, not just parents and youknow, spouses, but that dynamic
of of friendship because I thinkit continues to to help to
cultivate a healthyrelationship.
Katelyn (06:27):
And I've heard uh couples who have been um become
empty nesters, who well, that'swhere sometimes marriages can
fall when when uh they becomeempty nesters, but also um
hearing stories of them havingto like relearn each other and
and kind of become friends againbecause they've kind of lost
(06:49):
that.
And so I think that's been achallenge to us early on to
continue having those connectingpoints, those times of like
reconnection, laughing together.
Um the scripture talks aboutlaughing being medicine to the
soul, and so laughing with oneanother and um kind of always
learning each other as justfriends, like that basic kind of
(07:11):
human connection.
Um I'm hoping that down theroad, you know, we won't have to
have that stage of relearningeach other.
We'll kind of already be likeset off and enjoying life.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Jon (07:24):
I I s certainly agree with you, and I think that we're not
gonna have to do that becausewe're still learning and growing
with with each other now.
Uh friendships are just uhwired into our DNA as human
beings.
Katelyn (07:41):
Right.
Jon (07:42):
When God created Adam, we get to the second chapter of the
Bible, and it is not good thatman should be alone.
And so he creates a helper thatis fit for him.
This is his companion, this ishis sw his wife, this is his
friend, and this is the personthat he's to share life with in
(08:05):
I'm in the closest form.
And so again, as we talk aboutthe foundation of a healthy
marriage, friendship isfoundational to human beings.
We're created for companionshipto get along with with others.
Other passages of scripturethat come to mind, I mean the
Bible certainly talks aboutfriendships, right?
Even in the confines ofmarriage, right?
(08:27):
I mean, Song of Solomon.
Katelyn (08:28):
Yeah, I I have that here.
Song of Solomon Um 5, 16.
It's the bride talking about umher husband.
His mouth is most sweet and heis altogether desirable.
This is my beloved, and this ismy friend, oh daughter of
Jerusalem.
Uh, and I read that, I mean,that's something I would totally
(08:49):
say you are my beloved andyou're also my friend.
And I think that's reallyspecial and sweet.
Jon (08:55):
Okay.
So, what are the benefits offriendship, a healthy friendship
and a healthy marriage?
What does that bring into therelationship?
Katelyn (09:06):
Well, pretty basically enjoyment.
Yes, yes, I enjoying being withsomeone and just feeling
comfortable.
I think a big thing for me isfeeling safe and feeling like I
can be my 100% truest self withyou.
Yeah.
Um, that not even my closest,you know, girlfriends really see
(09:31):
that.
Um, not that I'm hiding myself.
It's just I feel the most who Iam when I'm with you.
Jon (09:38):
Yeah, that's talking vulnerability, transparency.
Totally, yeah.
Katelyn (09:42):
Seeing me at my absolute worst, um at my
absolute best.
Jon (09:48):
Um it's usually at your absolute best.
Um I agree.
Yeah.
I I totally agree.
And those are kind of mytalking points was was joy,
safety, and just this feeling ofconnectedness of and that's
again, I think one of thebeautiful things about being
(10:10):
married to your best friend.
Katelyn (10:12):
Just having a person.
Like knowing that at the end ofthe day, after a long day, like
I have a person.
Like I have someone who knowsme um in so many ways and knows
how my brain works and knows,you know, can see when I'm upset
about something, even if I'mtrying to you know, I you you
just you know me, and um, it's acomfort to have a person.
Jon (10:36):
We've been married now for 12 years.
And I'm glad I got that right.
Yeah.
Katelyn (10:43):
Yeah.
Jon (10:44):
We've been friends for 13 years.
Yeah.
Has our friendship always beenas good as it is today?
Has this grown over time?
Katelyn (10:55):
Yeah, it's grown over time.
I think we were friends um atthe start, but just like any
relationship, just getting toknow and you you learn more and
more.
I always say, I've said thisbefore, but I always say that I
wish I could go back 12, 13years and kind of not start
(11:19):
over, but just kind of relive alittle bit of that time knowing
what I already know about youand how much I love you now.
I think I would see our start alittle bit different.
But yeah, I think we still werewere friends and that
foundation was starting forsure.
Jon (11:40):
And if you think about it, we've got some different
interests.
You like like the Broadway, theshows, and you are uh more
artsy musical.
I'm get the complete oppositeof that.
We both have a competitivenessabout us.
Katelyn (12:05):
Totally, which I actually think is an element of
our friendship that is reallyfun.
Jon (12:10):
I think we both know how to win well and lose well.
Sure.
Uh but I do like winning.
Katelyn (12:16):
Yes, in a while.
Jon (12:18):
Against you.
Katelyn (12:19):
Right.
Jon (12:19):
Yeah, whatever it might be.
Um like bowling is acompetition.
Um ping pong.
Ping pong.
Katelyn (12:27):
I was thinking ping pong, yeah.
Jon (12:28):
I mean, I I I'll try to find a competition in anything.
Katelyn (12:32):
Well, hey, we need ketchup.
Who's going to the store?
Jon (12:35):
Rocks, paper, scissors, right?
Yeah.
Everything's a kind of a yeahin that way.
Yeah.
Katelyn (12:40):
Um, and we've passed that down to our children.
Our children definitely havecaught that.
Jon (12:46):
Disputes are finished with rocks, paper, scissors.
Sure.
Sometimes they want to go bestof three, that's fine.
But we've told them if you go,if you go to rocks, paper,
scissors, the moment you lose,you get up and do the thing that
you're supposed to do.
Katelyn (13:00):
That hurts.
It hurts.
It hurts.
Jon (13:01):
We can do it without grumbling or complaining.
Well, outwardly, maybe.
You might be driving to stopand shop.
Like, oh, I got to get thecatch up.
Um, but one thing that I canreflect on over the years is I
have never felt like myfriendship with you was a duty.
Like, I get to be your friend.
(13:25):
Like, I'm blessed.
I'm the I'm the I'm lucky, butI'm the blessed one in that, and
I mean sometimes I just gottapinch myself.
I'm like, this is real life.
And I'm just so thankful forthat.
And I think that's something webring to the table.
If we're thankful for ourfriendships, we won't take them
for granted.
Katelyn (13:44):
Yeah, I agree.
Jon (13:45):
And uh I hope I don't take our friendship for granted, and
that I'm always trying and andcultivating and not coasting,
you know, because that that tendthat can happen.
Katelyn (13:58):
It can happen.
There and there are seasonswhere you know that that might
get put a little bit on theshelf, um, but only for a
season.
Jon (14:07):
Would you say that we have more in common than we don't?
We both like sports?
Katelyn (14:15):
Yeah, I think the things that we have in common go
further than just surface, see.
Jon (14:21):
We play fantasy football together.
Katelyn (14:23):
Yeah, I mean more of like our love for the Lord and
ministry and our family andthose types of things too.
But by way of just like kind ofsurface outside things, I think
we still have more in commonthan we do not.
Really, the only thing I canthink of is what you've already
(14:43):
shared.
Just kind of I enjoy music andmusical theory.
Jon (14:49):
We went to a we went to a show a couple weeks ago, and I
enjoyed the fact that youenjoyed the show.
Katelyn (14:57):
You enjoyed the first act.
Jon (14:59):
It was okay, it was alright, but what I had great
enjoyment was that this is thething that Caitlin wants to do,
and that brought me joy becauseyou were excited.
Katelyn (15:07):
Yeah.
Jon (15:08):
And was it a sacrifice?
Maybe in some people's eyes.
Did it feel like I wassacrificing anything?
No.
Because my delight in ourfriendship was far more than um
whether or not I wanted to dothat thing.
You wanted to do it.
(15:28):
You wanted to do it with me.
Katelyn (15:30):
Yeah.
Jon (15:30):
So I thought that was, you know, special and that was fun.
Katelyn (15:33):
It's kind of how I view hiking mountains.
Jon (15:37):
Listen, our accountability score is high.
Katelyn (15:40):
I enjoy the I do enjoy the physical exertion and the
time together out in creation,but I don't know if I would
necessarily choose to do itclimbing a 4,000-footer.
Jon (15:55):
We've had some fun times on the mountains, right?
Katelyn (15:57):
Yeah.
It's we have had fun times, andit's always worth it when you
get to the summit, but it's notsomething I'm like, let's go
hiking or even camping.
Jon (16:06):
All right.
We're gonna get back to ohyeah, we we can't.
We can listen.
Uh love the passage from Songof Solomon how uh the wife sees
her husband not just as thebeloved, but as her friend.
You know, I say it often, andsometimes I might get
misunderstood.
Loving others is a command.
(16:28):
Liking is something of achoice.
It's instinct, it's it's youknow, in a sense, instinctual
how we're drawn to certainpeoples.
You can't like everybody.
That doesn't mean hate them ordislike them, but there's only
so much capacity for liking.
Uh we're to love our neighbor.
(16:48):
And so uh, you know, one of thegreatest compliments is I like
you.
And I that means I I you know Ifind joy in you, and I think
that's important to remember.
Another passage that comes tomind is Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes chapter four, andI have it here, verse nine.
Two are better than one becausethey have a good reward for
(17:12):
their toil.
For if they fall, one will beable to lift up his fellow.
But woe to him who is alonewhen he falls and has no one to
lift him up.
Again, if two lie together,they keep warm.
But how can one keep warmalone?
And though a man might prevailagainst one who is alone, two
(17:34):
will withstand him.
A threefold cord is not quicklybroken.
I just think about theprinciple there of simply put,
two is better than one.
Friendships strengthen us.
We are able to help and serveone another.
So if one of us falls down, theother one's right there to help
us help the other get up.
(17:56):
Closeness, as it's even statedthere.
It was cold last night.
Right?
But as like being closetogether, uh, there's just a
principle there of how we cancare for one another in our in
our falling or in just the needsuh of each other.
So I think that's just aanother beautiful passage that
explains and and kind ofhighlights the importance of
(18:19):
having friends and friendship infor us in the context of
marriage.
I want to talk about here kindof cultivating that friendship.
Some friendships kind of comenaturally, but you can't just
ride on that.
There needs to be what I wouldsay intentionality.
And so when it comes to beingfriends with your spouse, what
(18:44):
are ways in which you can beintentional in cultivating that
friendship?
Because I I don't think youjust drift into best friend
mode.
No, it takes effort, right?
Katelyn (18:56):
Yeah, I I do think it takes effort.
And I think it just comes downto the everyday little just
little moments of care.
And um for example, you hurtyour back this week, and just I
tried to, hey, do you needsomething?
Hey, have you taken yourmedicine today?
Have you um, you know, how areyou feeling today?
(19:20):
And just showing care and andthinking of that person, of your
spouse in little ways.
It it's hard because I feellike this crossover of you know,
dating and cultivating amarriage, but and also
friendship kind of gets muddiedwhen you're married a little
bit, but I think taking the timeand doing things together,
(19:43):
making an effort to see oneanother, hear one another,
growing trust with one another,I think over the years,
especially just being loyal andtrustworthy with everything,
everything.
Jon (19:59):
Yeah.
Um I think let me think aboutsome practical ways.
Yeah, we just we some biblicalprinciples there.
What are practical ways ofbeing intentional in cultivating
friendship?
If we've said it once, we'veprobably said it a bunch of
times on other podcasts, butI'll go back to it.
Going on walks together is avery practical way in which we
(20:21):
can cultivate a friendshipbecause uh we frequently and we
prioritize walking together.
We do a two-mile walk, 30 someodd minutes.
We gotta talk to each other.
Katelyn (20:31):
Yeah.
Jon (20:32):
And I think it helps us to not just talk about the big
things, right, but to talk abouteverything.
Katelyn (20:40):
Which I do.
Jon (20:43):
Yes, I mean it's very stereotypical.
You've got more words in a daythan I do.
We share what's going on,what's in our minds, what's in
our hearts.
Sometimes we talk about trivialthings.
Katelyn (20:56):
But I think that's again, healthy communication, so
that we're not just comingtogether when we have a big
problem we need to solve, orlike this really heavy thing is
weighing on me, or you're notdoing this, or and oh, I think
we definitely have um when itwhen it's come down to it, I
think we've made either some bigdecisions, bolstered each other
(21:16):
up in a in a decision orsomething on a walk.
Like kind of reason.
We're resolved to do this, orwe're gonna we're gonna confront
this like this.
And I think another person Butalso like what do you want for
dinner tonight?
Those type of questions, too.
Jon (21:34):
Yes, those ones.
Um okay.
On another another another kindof practical thing um that I
was thinking about laughingtogether.
I think it's so it can be solike underrated, but really
laughing and finding humor andjoy in each other.
Katelyn (21:59):
I've never met anyone that makes me laugh more than
you do.
Jon (22:03):
I'm not I don't think I'm that funny.
Katelyn (22:05):
You are really funny.
Jon (22:08):
And you're laughing right now.
Katelyn (22:11):
Because I'm actually thinking of things that you've
done or said that have made melaugh.
I just um Yeah, but but thething is sometimes you've gotten
me into giggling fits inchurch, and that's when I'm
preaching?
No.
Jon (22:25):
Good.
Um Well, I don't know.
Katelyn (22:28):
People on the outside that see me, like they probably
think I'm so stuffy and you docarry kind of a sternness on
your on your face when you'rejust kind of just there.
You you're very stern on yourface.
Jon (22:42):
I d I don't it's just who I am, I guess, but um I'm glad I
make you laugh.
Yeah, you do.
Good.
Being intentional, going onwalks, laughing together.
Katelyn (22:54):
Just doing fun things together.
Jon (22:56):
Do fun things together.
Katelyn (22:58):
Do fun things.
I mean, we our capacity is kindof small.
We can't get out a lot, but um,you know, even we'll take all
the kids outside and we'll playkickball or um we work out
together sometimes.
Like we just we do things thatwe enjoy together, um, and it
(23:20):
just makes it that much better.
Jon (23:21):
I want to give this real practical to if any parents are
listening.
Do fun things together thatdoes not always center around
your children.
So, you know, hey, we're gonnago see this show because bring
in the kids.
You that's fine, and that'sgood, and that's good family
time, and it's good forconnecting, but there needs to
(23:44):
be a separate category for yourspouse for the purpose of
friendship.
Um, not to check a box, butagain for cultivating that
because you'll have a season ofof kids in the home, and kind of
bring it back to what you weresaying about the empty nester.
There's gonna be a time whenthey're gone and you don't want
to have to reintroduce yourselfto your spouse.
(24:07):
And who are you again?
Oh, I didn't know this issomething you enjoyed doing.
You know, we were so wrapped upfor men, I was so wrapped up in
my work, so you know, focusedon trying to be a good provider
and a good father, that I forgotto be a friend to my wife.
You don't want to get there.
And if you do get there, it'snot that it's not without hope.
(24:30):
We can turn around from thatand take some of the practical
steps about being intentional.
Um and again, kind ofcultivating that in a way that
is for the glory of God.
Katelyn (24:41):
I was thinking too, you know, growing up, um, and I
don't know if we're gonna talkabout having friends or if
that's gonna be a part two, butum my dad always told me a man
who has friends must showhimself friendly.
And I carried that with methroughout my whole life.
That's KJV.
ESV is reads definitelydifferently, but but even in
(25:04):
marriage, just being pleasant,like for me, being pleasant and
being someone that you want tobe around, you know, being
friendly.
The only time you'll reallyprobably find me not being super
friendly is first thing in themorning.
Like the first kind of likefive minutes of our walk, I like
(25:26):
just have gotten out of bed andput on my workout clothes and
just like started walking, andI'm kind of like I'm tiptoeing
and like a zombie zombie.
Jon (25:34):
Yeah, I'm tiptoeing and so you say the first word, you want
to break the ice, like thenonce it's my thought.
Katelyn (25:41):
You are very very tribur in the morning.
And I don't think I'm like nota morning person.
I just think it takes You'renot a morning person.
No, it just takes me a fewminutes to wake up.
Jon (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, I would I would say that I don't I wouldn't say
Caitlin's a morning person.
Not that you like you need, youknow, the crazy morning person
either.
Katelyn (26:02):
Like the soonest I can get into bed.
Jon (26:06):
Yeah, you're like a 12 to 8 person.
Katelyn (26:09):
Moral of the story is I really I really love bed.
Jon (26:13):
Yeah, that that's not something we have in common.
That's the one of the differentthe differences.
Okay, let's just talk brieflythen on how do you react or what
do you do when you are mad atyour friend, or there is
conflict with your friend who isyour spouse.
(26:35):
How does that affect thefriendship?
Katelyn (26:39):
How do you Well, we're not laughing?
Jon (26:43):
We're not laughing, that's for sure.
Or how about this when whenthere's tension in the
relationship?
Katelyn (26:51):
Well, I do think it's good to have tension in that
it's not good to have tension,but I think when done properly,
the tension can turn into thatiron sharpening iron moment.
Well, communication, we'vetalked about communication
before, but I think you can'ttalk about that enough.
Well, right, right.
(27:12):
I think that is huge in thisrelationship, but also in
friendships.
You have to have communication.
Um, and sometimes what we sayor do will either be
misconstrued or will actually besinful, um, and it's gonna get
talked about.
And it's not fun and it's ickysometimes, but I think it's
(27:37):
important and it it needs tohappen.
Jon (27:39):
And our friendship has been forged through those moments.
So if we talk about like howhas our friendship grown over
time, I I think it's beenstrengthened through conflict.
Katelyn (27:49):
Yeah, I also um was thinking about trials, how
trials build uh relationships aswell.
But but I think our friendshiphelps in those moments because
we can have real honestconversations.
I can really truly say how I'mfeeling or confront you when
you've done something.
(28:10):
It's not easy, but I think thedeeper your friendship is, the
more open and honest you canhave these conversations.
Jon (28:21):
Right.
And there's already resolved inour mind, like this
friendship's not going away,right?
So No.
Katelyn (28:26):
Right, so it's like we're in it.
We're in it forever.
Jon (28:29):
Yeah, that's right.
And so it's either gonna behealthy or unhealthy.
Yeah.
But it's not gonna be there ornot.
Katelyn (28:37):
Yeah.
Jon (28:37):
And so yeah, as we as we think about conflict intention,
practically we learn to forgive.
We learn to extend forgivenessand to receive forgiveness.
And sometimes both of those arehard.
Katelyn (28:53):
Um we as quick as possible.
Jon (28:55):
As quick as possible.
Not not not to sweep sweep anissue under the rug.
We resolve it, we move on fromthat.
And in resolution, we resolveto not bring it up again.
If there, whatever the thingis, if I've forgiven you, you've
forgiven me, uh, we lay it downand it doesn't come back again.
Uh there's also been times andseasons where we felt
(29:17):
disconnected from each other,and I think that's more you
feeling that from me, and maybeI'm not even aware.
Katelyn (29:25):
Yeah.
Jon (29:27):
And so that's something where we have to we have to talk
about this.
Like, I'm not feeling, youknow, connected to you.
What's going on?
And having those conversations.
Katelyn (29:38):
Well, because sometimes when you are so comfortable
with someone, it is easy to kindof just coast, kind of become
roommate type of situation.
Not that you're not that that'sbad, because we're we've got a
routine in our home and we knowour roles and we know what we're
doing.
But yeah, sometimes that canfeel a little just Not good.
(30:00):
And we we kind of need to likeliven things up.
Jon (30:05):
Okay, so when that happens and you're feeling like
disconnected from your spouse,that's the time to press pause
and do a check-in.
That's the don't don't keepletting that that go for a long
period of time because you'renot going to get good outcomes
without addressing that.
(30:25):
And so that's where hire ababysitter, uh, if you've got
kids in the home, beintentional, go do something, go
on a date, do something for thepurpose of reconnecting.
Let's talk.
Katelyn (30:40):
Yeah.
Jon (30:40):
Let's talk about what's going on.
Reconnect as friends.
Katelyn (30:44):
There's gonna be seasons where that just happens,
where we're kind of shipspassing in the night.
We're busy, we've got thingsgoing on, we've got m m high
levels of ministry, or you'vegot multiple meetings, or where
we're kind of just, you know,kind of passing, and that's
normal, that's gonna happen.
And but taking those times ofhaving short accounts almost of
(31:08):
um when we had lots of littles,I mean we still have lots of
littles, but it felt likelittles.
Lots of littles.
Um, we made it a priority.
We couldn't go out uh often.
We didn't have we have sitters,but to do a weekly outing is
not doable.
(31:29):
Right.
We made it a point to do sushiSundays.
You remember those?
Yeah, those were fun.
So we would get the kids to bedafter church in the evening,
get them right to bed, we'dorder sushi, um, and we'd watch
a show, football, whatever itwas.
We'd just hang out or not, andsit and talk or whatever.
Um and it was kind of like anon-negotiable the children
(31:54):
could not be downstairs.
They had to go to bed.
Um, they knew it was sushiSunday night, they knew it was
mom and dad's night, and yeah,they were dates, but also that
was our time in the midst ofchaos, in the midst of busyness,
not being able to go out ondates or whatever, um, to still
set aside a time.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Um and can be done with littlecapacity, you know.
Jon (32:19):
I agree.
And uh, those are those areimportant.
Another practical thing isdon't make all of your you know,
time with your spouse, yourfriendship time center around
watching TV.
Sometimes you need to spendtime together with the TV off
and just looking at one another,phones down, no scrolling, no
screens, real people.
Yeah.
Well, we would be remiss if wedidn't talk about uh just
(32:42):
briefly here uh the reason thatI think we have a healthy
friendship that we believe it isa 97.
Was that the score we gave?
Yeah.
A nine and a seven.
All right.
And that's our commitment andcloseness to Jesus.
We both love our Savior, uh,we're committed to Christ, and
(33:06):
as we are seeking to grow in Himand Christ be formed in us,
that draws us closer to eachother.
Because the I mean, there's nogreater friend than Jesus.
He's the perfect friend.
And if we want to have goodfriendships, the more we are
like Jesus, the better thequality of our friendships will
(33:27):
be, at least the better qualityfriend we will be to others.
And so ultimately, as you and Iare both pursuing the same Lord
and the same goals and the sameoutcomes and the same desire of
godliness, it'll draw us closertogether as friends.
Christ at the center of yourfriendship is the way we were
(33:50):
designed to have any and allfriendships.
And so I just want to, again,we do a lot of intentional
things together, but that'sthat's the backbone, that's the
spinal cord of our friendship,right there, is that uh we both
are trusting, loving, andfollowing Jesus.
And that again helps us to keepshort accounts.
Yeah.
(34:10):
Because when I do wrong to you,I'm not just doing wrong to
you.
Katelyn (34:13):
Yeah.
Jon (34:14):
You know, I've there's more to it than that.
And so that's why I want toseek to be the godly friend that
God has called me to be, thatChrist commands us to be, and
that we have the opportunity tobe, especially in our
relationship here.
Any other thoughts onfriendship?
Katelyn (34:32):
We touched on it a little bit, but just how going
through trials with someonebrings you closer together as
well.
And we've gone through our fairshare of trials, um and whether
within our relationship orjust, you know, things that
we've endured in our life umbeing together.
(34:53):
And I think going through thosemoments when you're down on
your knees with someone, whenyou're crying and it's coming
from deep within, um, and it'sjust all coming out, you know,
through tears, you know, thatperson you're leaning on that
just brings you together.
Yeah.
Um, when you're going through afiery trial together, um, the
(35:13):
loss of, you know, pregnanciesand those things, um, you know,
hurt children, ER visits, likethose things, you know, relying
on what having someone to relyon and go through those things
with, you come out of thatstronger um just relationally.
Jon (35:32):
That's great.
Katelyn (35:33):
Yeah.
Jon (35:33):
Thanks for letting me be your friend.
Katelyn (35:35):
Yeah, I enjoy you.
Um, I think we should do a parttwo on friendships.
Jon (35:43):
Let's do it.
Katelyn (35:43):
Okay.
Jon (35:44):
That obviously will be for our next conversation.
Well, I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You could reach out atquestions at pleasing
godpodcast.org.
And remember, firstThessalonians four three.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
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