Running Up That Hill

Paul Cordts, Special Guest, The OG Plumb Bum.

Paul has run Cordts Plumbing from '95 to somewhat present, although he's mostly behind the scenes and very part time.

Discussing Rich's heart attack, taking over, family memories and business advice

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Alright folks, episode number four, Plum Bumps podcast.

(00:10):
Thanks for joining us.
We have some listeners we've noticed tracking the analytics, which is pretty cool.
Got a listener from Belgium, someone downloaded from Belgium.
Yeah, he showed me.
I don't know what that language in Belgium is.
Can't believe Belgium.
Oh yeah.
Alright, fair enough.

(00:31):
We actually are going to have our first guest on the podcast today, my uncle Paul, the guy
who I took over the business from.
Paul, introduce yourself.
Hey, I'm Paul.
So we got me, Max, who we have me, the basically the whole work crew today, except for Nancy.

(00:52):
But I don't know, are you excited to be on?
Yeah.
I've been listening to the first three of them.
I think they're interesting.
They're actually when I'm driving around and it's something to, I listen to other podcasts,
but when I turn this one on, I listen to stories, very funny.
I think you and Max work as good as a team.
You guys sound good together.

(01:13):
When you turn this one on, everything changes.
He's just being nice.
Yeah, exactly.
No, no, no.
He's just trying to sport our dreams.
I think this, I would like to see this thing take off.
I think you guys sound really good together.
Well, we wanted to, there's a couple of people who have expressed interest in being on it,
but I said, well, the first reforms we have to get Paul on.

(01:34):
That's only fair.
I'm here.
But no, I'm glad to have you on.
I think it's going to be fun.
But yeah, so I took over.
It's about seven years now.
Yeah, seven years.
When you had had enough.
Yeah.
Pull the plug.
I'm done.
And then I joined on and then three weeks later, you're like, all right, I'm out all together.

(01:54):
You got three weeks to learn this.
If you need anything, call Rob.
That's a grandpa.
That's a grandpa.
Didn't mean he's like, dropped out of a heart attack and he's like learning.
Actually, you know what?
Before we even get into these questions, can you explain what happened with that?
Grandpa's first heart attack.
Oh, yeah.
How did it go down?
Well, I was, I was running my own construction company.

(02:17):
Yeah, we were doing small jobs.
What's the name of it?
It was a continental construction.
You know, named after the block that we grew up on.
And then I was doing that for years.
I jumped out.
Did other things.
Did marketing.
Did insurance.
But I always came back to construction.

(02:38):
Ever since high school, I think I knew I wanted to be on my own business when I was, got to
say ninth grade.
What I kind of noticed is most of the courts are more entrepreneurs.
Yes.
Yeah, we all want to work for anybody.
It's a very hard thing for us to do work for people.
It's also a very hard thing for people to work with us.
Yeah.

(02:59):
No, because we know it all.
I mean, we have every answer to everything and that's why we're never successful in a
way we should be.
We don't let anybody.
No.
So what happened was that, you know, grandpa, I'm going to call him my dad.
It's easier.
I'm going to call him grandpa.
All right.
My dad was, you know, he was working his business.
He was actually doing work with us.
He was our plumber.

(03:20):
And then, and then one day we were sitting there and we were going up to your father's
church and he was watching TV and your aunt, my sister was home and we're all going to
see your brother preach that night and he didn't move.
He didn't want to go.
He goes, no, I'm not feeling too good.
Well, so I took, actually, I think I took Philip.

(03:42):
No, I took Daniel and Nicole.
He and I took, took the call and Daniel up to the church.
You were already up there because you lived up there.
And then Nancy calls mom through some, wait, wait, back then we had what, paper cups and
a string.
That's how we find the people out.
No, we had, I think they contacted the church.

(04:03):
They probably called the church number.
Yeah.
They called the church number and Nancy says, what year was that?
Do you remember 96?
Was it 96?
Some, yeah, 95, 96.
I think it was.
Yeah.
I think it was around there.
95, 96.
And Nancy said that dad, you know, not, not feeling good.
Ended up having a massive heart attack that night.

(04:23):
So at that point, you know, Graham, Graham, my mom was just, you know, kind of freaking
out a little bit, trying to pull stuff together.
And you know, it was kind of a, you know, it was the first time our family went through
anything was major, especially, you know, the breadwinner of the family, somebody who
was always there who had all the answers.
And you know, dad and I always worked together, what I was doing construction, he was always

(04:47):
our plumber.
Even when I was younger, he'd always taken him out of school to do plumbing jobs, you
know, help, help me with this water heater, help me with this boiler.
And you know, over the years, I kind of learned plumbing through there.
But the second I never really wanted to be a plumber, I was a wanted to be a builder,
build homes and maybe a contractor.
And you know, we did pretty well.

(05:08):
We were building additions, we were doing new builds.
Did he ever have a crew or was it always just him?
No, it was always just him.
Yeah.
He never, he never wanted to hire anybody.
He just wanted to do his own thing.
It was a one on one.
God.
Yeah, exactly.
A solo plumber at a time where they still put cast iron in.
Yeah.

(05:28):
Yeah.
He never, he never had a worker, you know, raising seven, raising seven kids.
I don't know how he did it.
You know, seven of us and, you know, he would actually, you know, I don't want to go up
the story there, but he would actually go when we're growing up, he would be, he would
plumb all day long.
And then we go out and he would drive a taxi cab at night.
Wow.
That's right.

(05:48):
I forgot.
Yeah.
And then he would drive a taxi cab at night and then he would end up, you know, getting
up every morning, doing an over and over and over.
That was his quiet time, the taxi, taxi driving.
It was.
He didn't want to come home to seven kids and the wife.
That was his peace and quiet.
Yeah.
His peace and quiet.
He didn't need the second job.
He just wanted the second job.
That's funny.

(06:08):
So, so, so it's true.
True.
You know, so what happened was that once he had that, I mean, it was like turmoil for
about a two or three weeks straight and, and my mom came up.
She goes, I don't know what I'm going to do.
We got all these bills.
We got this.
I said, mom, customers waiting, customers waiting, people calling, you know, and we didn't
want anybody here that dad had a heart attack or, or is it sick because then there goes

(06:32):
the business.
Oh yeah.
You know, so I said, you know, not to interject, but.
When I took over, everyone's like, well, I wanted Paul.
Well, and then when you took over, everyone wanted grandpa.
Everyone, everyone said the same.
I was like, wait, where's your father?
I don't want you to get into my house.
Yeah.
You guys have told me that you're like walking to somebody's house and walking to somebody's

(06:52):
house and they were like, I don't know you.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't want you.
We're still waiting for that to wear off on that.
Yeah.
It's been five years.
Where's Phil?
Where's Paul?
Oh, I had that so many times.
I was like, oh dear, I'm the one doing it.
So, so you didn't tell anybody.
No, we didn't tell anybody.
Because we felt, I said, I just told mom and said, don't tell anybody.
You know, I'll just jump in a truck and we'll start doing jobs in there.

(07:14):
So what was the first truck?
The first truck was a, was it was a blue pickup with a, with an, with an odd colored cap on
it.
Um, that, uh, I think that was the first truck.
I don't know.
It's just, we had so many.
Yeah.
And, and basically the back of the truck looked like the dumpster.

(07:36):
You feel have to construct your job cause my, cause my father never cleaned the truck
out after any job.
So it was like the first day I got in the car or getting a truck, I drive around and
I'm, you know, going to the first job.
And I think the first job was just repair toilets.
And I was like, okay, this, this is pretty, pretty easy.
It wasn't, I think it took me four hours to repair a flopper.

(07:57):
And I sat there and I was trying to, you know, do the job.
I went in the back of the truck, open up and just everything just fell out on me.
And I was like, you know, my first job and was fell and I was crying because I was like,
I can't do this.
I go, I'm not a plumber.
I got jobs that I get that I'm trying to get off on the construction side and I'm trying
to, uh, you know, finish those jobs up.
I got those people yelling at me, but I got, you know, I got, you were still going to try

(08:19):
to run the construction.
No, I was trying to get out of it.
I was, cause I knew, I said, I, in my mind, the second, uh, my dad had the heart attack.
I said, my construction career is over.
I'm going to be a plumber.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
It was that quick.
Cause if I didn't, and I went back and forth, it wouldn't have been fair to mom, you know,
trying to run that and do my business and how do you split the money?

(08:41):
So I said, forget it.
Did you, did you switch that quickly because it's a family business and you wanted to keep
that going or did you switch because it was, cause you just didn't like, cause you just
didn't know you, you just felt like that was over.
Yeah.
I felt that that was a period right then I made a decision that quick.
It wasn't like, oh, let me think about it.
I had to make a decision that quick that I was going to end my construction career building

(09:04):
homes.
And, and during that time I had workers that every worker I had, I want to take to the
top of the roof and throw them off because they were, I was going to try to, they were
trying to rip me off and I was trying to do this.
I just, and I got kind of, not to say it came in a perfect time, but it came at a time when
I was, I was sitting there.
I was like, you know, I had a lot to manage on the construction side.
I said, you know what?
It took me a couple of days.

(09:24):
I said, if I can figure out how to do the plumbing, it looks like a smaller animal
of the construction side.
Right.
And it seemed like it made more sense.
Well, there's not, there's not service construction.
Right.
There's no, no, there is.
We can handyman type service, right?
But he was building, you're building houses.
Yeah.
I was doing, we do houses.
We did, I mean, my first job as a contractor, we got a job at a level and I had a higher

(09:51):
two of the contractors help me.
And this guy, Lenny and I forget the other guy's name, two old guys.
And all he did was one guy, Lenny drank beer all day long in the job.
And the other guy, I can't remember, your father would know his name.
I can't remember his name, but just two old cranky guys that were great contractors.

(10:13):
They did great work, right?
They did great work, but they're like, ah, you'll never get a job this big.
They were mad at me because I was so young and I got a big job like that.
And I said, I said, really?
Because I got another one coming up.
You want to work?
You were giving them all the work and they were like, you're never going to get a job.
Yeah.
Oh, every day.
Look, look, look, look.
Yeah.
Every day this guy, Lenny, he was amazing.

(10:34):
He would show up at a case of beer.
It's crazy.
My uncle is the same.
I don't know how people work like that.
I don't know how he does it.
Yeah.
He would come out a case of beer and he was doing the foundation then and he would take
the empty beer cans and just crush them and put them in the chair.
One for me and one for the house.

(10:54):
So he's sitting there and he's filling up these, he's filling up the foundation.
And that was the first contract I worked with like that.
That I was like, all right, let me do what he has to do.
I'm not going to question him.
But he would come down every day.
In fact, your father was working with me at the same time.
And your dad remembered the whole story.
Well, I remember when he was going to work.

(11:15):
I was maybe...
How long did that last?
Five, six years old.
But I remember that when he would go to...
How long did it last that his father worked with you?
I don't know.
He stuck with me for a while.
He stuck with me on jobs.
I was listening to the podcast when I had him at jobs.
No, no, that was you when I took you out at midnight or...

(11:36):
Oh, right.
Bernstein's like midnight because I had to get this job done.
I don't know why.
Yeah, it was one of those...
Well, because they were coming in, we had to...
When it was during winter, so we had to make sure everything was winterized and all that
stuff because they were going to try to salvage the basement floor.
But I remember being there at 11, 12 o'clock at night.
And then I almost... When my dad was working with you, he was the associate pastor at...

(12:00):
Sparta.
No, in Mawa.
Oh, that's right.
Remember that little church in Mawa?
An associate pastor in a tiny little church.
What does he make in 100 bucks a week?
Yeah, I mean, it was nothing.
Yeah, but...
And then you guys lived up in that raccoon nest up there.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, Leven, the pool place...
What that place?
No, he's lived there his whole life.

(12:22):
Oh, really?
Yeah, when I got a job at that pool place, I was there for maybe three weeks and then
we passed something that I recognized.
I was like, wait a second.
That's my bedroom.
That's my backyard.
I couldn't... It was so funny.
And then dad had come up and he actually met Vic and they were talking for a little bit
and they were talking about the whole cruelty old landlord ways.
It was such a nasty old man.

(12:43):
The roof caved in one night.
We were all sleeping and the entire half of the roof just caved in.
That's it.
That...
You should just have your father on just on the raccoon.
You know what?
Yeah, so my dad's going to be on in a couple of weeks.
I'll have him tell the raccoon.
Let me go back to my story because I can go on a tangent with that one.
All right, good.

(13:03):
Where did you leave off?
So I left off where...
I had to make a choice right then.
Either I do construction or do that or go to plumbing.
And I said, you know what?
Plumbing, it's a family business.
I saw the pressure that grandma was under when my mom was under.
I said, I'm not walking away.
I'm going to do this right now.
So my first job was, like I said, it was a toilet and it just...

(13:26):
Plumbing's not hard.
Once you figure out the basics of how to do it, you get it done.
You figure it out and then once it's done, it repeats itself in different ways.
And then once you get that done, you become an excellent mechanic.
So all the years I work with my father, I never listen to him.
I never...
Help me with a water heater.
Do this, sweat this, sweat this.

(13:47):
So I'm sitting there.
And I'm like, this is ridiculous.
I go, can't be this hard.
Flabber took me like two hours.
But I ended up charging the lady.
I think it was like $300.
And in the mid 90s?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So every...
Too early to have that of her house.
Let me go back on that story.
So at the same time, my father's in the hospital trying to work himself through a heart attack.

(14:10):
And he had a phone next to his bed and every time I would go to a job, I would call him
up and say, dad, what do you do there?
And he goes, would you stop calling me?
He goes, charge what you want.
I'm like, all right, I will.
So then I think it was the first job.
The first job was a toilet repair.
I got $300 from it.
He goes, how much did you get?
He goes, I go $300.

(14:30):
He goes, what did you do?
I go, I changed a flap and adjusted the thing.
$300?
He goes, I don't want to tell you anything.
Just keep charging what you're doing.
I never got $75 ever on a toilet repair.
$300 and he didn't give her a new toilet.
You know what I still have, I have pinned to this bulletin board an old receipt from 1982
from Grandpa.

(14:51):
Oh, you did?
Yeah.
I still have it in there.
We still see old stickers.
Yeah.
We see the old stickers that we put on $100 for this boiler or even older than that.
Yeah.
I mean, even older.
I think you came, your first winter we came here and we pulled out a boiler that Grandpa
had put in.
Yeah.
Oh.
45 years earlier.
Yeah.
And his old sticker was there and everything.

(15:11):
And we had the one with the guy where the freezing, it looked like he, it didn't look
like a radiator.
It looked like a beer that was overflowing on the picture.
I haven't seen it in a while.
Old guy freezing next to a heater on his car.
So we always stick those to the boiler.
Okay.
I don't remember what it looked like, but I remember his sticker was there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he put him, he was good at that.
He put him everywhere.
So then once he found out, I didn't know how to charge and I was just overcharging

(15:36):
everybody.
He was like, don't change your way.
And not that we overcharge customers.
I'm just saying is that, that, you know, we...
Well, you're, there's a transition period there.
You're trying to figure it out.
Yeah.
I was trying to figure out what the number, I didn't know what numbers were, you know,
because when we had the construction business, I really didn't do my numbers.
You know, we just were getting, we were so busy.
So, and it went on a couple of weeks and it just started picking up.

(15:56):
And then the one job I think you talked about in your first podcast was your father and
I did a water heater.
Yeah.
And I hear that story all the time.
I mean, I remember growing up listening to that story.
That was probably the funniest story ever because you, I was listening to it and I was like,
I'm trying to, I wish I was like, no, no, and this happened.
So it was, it wasn't a single water heater.

(16:17):
It was a dual water heater.
Oh, a tandem?
It was a tandem water heater.
So one water heater fed it to the other.
You know, and the lady, the lady, this lady had to be like a hundred years old.
She goes, my water heater is leaking.
I'm like, okay, we'll go down and fix it.
I'm like, I come like superhero here.
I'm like, I'm going to fix this.
I'll have this done in an hour.
I think it was 14 days later.
It was the next billing cycle.

(16:39):
She passed away, she sold the house and she still has no hot water.
So the first call went out, it was to your father.
I'm like, Steve, you got to help me out here.
I go, I go, I know we worked with that a million times and I just still can't figure
out how to do a water heater.
So we go in there and the, the, the both water here's were gotta be 40 years old.

(17:04):
Back then in the houses, there was no water filters, no nothing.
So both water here's at the bottom were about six inches of a calcium built up.
So we couldn't even drain them down.
So, so first thing it took us, we still run into that.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
The calcium is all over the place.
So we ended up trying to shut it down and both handles of each water heater broke off.

(17:25):
I'm like, oh no.
So there's no water coming out.
It was so backed up with calcium.
No, no, no, the handle to feed.
Oh, I got you.
Cause it was leaking past that.
It was going on her, on her, on her floor.
So then I said, I went to shut it down.
The handles broke off.
I'm like, oh no.
So then I went over to the water main and it wasn't like a simple ball valve.
It was that old.
Yeah.

(17:45):
One you had to put a pipe on it.
And I remember my, how my dad showed me how to do this.
We had wrenches here and that we almost broke that water main and we, we just stopped it
just to the point where we shut it off and stopped.
So we're sitting there and we're like, I start cutting the pipe and the house would not drain
down.
I'm like, why is this thing not draining down?

(18:06):
Problem is we had back pressure coming in from, um, we had back pressure coming in for something.
I don't know what it was.
We found that she had a well pump tied to it.
So the worst first job ever.
She had some type of old well pump.
Like, where's that water coming from?
You know what?
We run into that all the time because we'll go to Nancy will call us.
Oh, someone just call.

(18:27):
It's like four o'clock in the afternoon.
Someone just call.
They just need a fill valve.
Yeah.
They would never just a fill valve.
We go, okay.
If, if it came in at nine o'clock in the morning, it would just be a fill valve.
But if it's four o'clock in the afternoon, they need a new shut off.
And then we need to turn off the house water and then the handle breaks.
And then you have to fix it.
Can you just look at this for me while you're here?
Yeah.

(18:48):
It's just, it's always a nightmare.
That's what I'll say.
I'll see you tomorrow.
Yeah.
We'll live with it for a night.
Yeah.
So the thing is that I don't want to drag the story out because I know you got other
stuff we want to talk about, but real quick, we ended up finally shutting the water
down and we couldn't drain it out.
So what happened was, I remember I worked with my dad every time he had a plugged drain
off at the bottom, he would take a pipe and knock the calcium out and then put the plug

(19:10):
back on.
Yeah.
So really quick.
Really quick.
So, so we unscrewed them, both of them.
And I'm like, oh, there's a calcium.
I see what my father did.
I took a pipe, put it in there and the water came out like it was a fire hose.
I couldn't get the thing back on.
So I was like, I don't know what that movie was where the fire hose was in the guy's face

(19:31):
and he couldn't get, he was like trying to put the cover on the fire hose and I was soaking
wet within 30 seconds.
And then your brother's laughing at me.
My dad.
Yeah.
Standing there laughing at him.
I'm sorry, my brother's laughing at me.
And he's like, what are you doing?
So he tries to get on there.
Meanwhile, this lady's base was flooded in 30 seconds.
And we were like that, what's that movie Home Alone where the guy in the basement was like

(19:54):
trying to stand up and he had all that glue on the floor.
Yeah.
Slipping around.
That was us.
We were just dying.
We were dying.
So we were trying to clean up and all of a sudden you hear a voice, are you guys all
right?
You need help down there.
We're dying laughing.
I'm not dying laughing.
I was like crying.
Frustrated.
Frustrated.

(20:15):
Yeah.
And that was, listen, that was the first, we finally figured out, you know, and then
let me on this story here.
Then my other brother P calls me.
He goes, don't forget to use flux when you saw it.
And I'm like, shut up, you don't know what you're talking about.
Well, what did I forget to do?
I forget to put flux on the pipe.
I was burning the pipe.
You know, and I was, because I would never catch.
Yeah, it would never catch.
So, you know, here, sorry to interrupt, but hearing these stories of, of how you got started

(20:40):
versus how you, how experienced you are now, it's very, it's amazing because you think
simple, it's something so simple flux the pipe before you sweat it.
Yeah.
And I was like, when we have problems, well, who do we call the guy who had all the problems
in the beginning, the guy who ran into all the problems in the beginning and you ask
him and he knows everything.
And my thought is anyway, this is, this is a, this is a thread through the courts family

(21:05):
that we don't listen.
That's why you don't work for people.
Yeah.
You can't work for people because we don't listen.
We know everything.
You tell me all the time that I have to learn the hard way with the numbers, with this,
with that, taking certain jobs.
It's true.
Every single.
I think I said it on like two or three episodes ago when I was like, you get all the courses

(21:25):
together apart.
They were very different, but you get all of a sudden there's the same room and you're
looking around.
You're like, this is one person.
This is one person wrapped into.
There's no difference between these walking Kronos for people.
One person.
No, but that, but that was it.
That was after that, then I got real serious and I said, okay, I can't check around.

(21:48):
Um, so that, that truck that I had, uh, it took me two years to get an actual van.
So we were so broke at that time, you know, I was working, give my mom, uh, my mom, the
money she was paying the bills and we were going back and forth.
And I just accepted there's where I'm going to be.
You know, meanwhile, my friends are doctors and lawyers and stuff like that.
I'm like, you know, I'm like, so, so I'm sitting there and for two winters, I could not have,

(22:13):
I don't have heat in my truck.
So I would go on the coldest day, start that blue truck up and I'm like, okay, we're going
to do it today.
This is where I become a winner.
And like, Tony Robbins says you have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations.
So you're like, you're like, putting tapes in the tape deck, trying to stay, trying to

(22:35):
stay motivated.
Tape deck, choose it up.
While you're taking a t-shirt to wipe off the fog.
Here's your life.
It just ends up in the pack pile of all the stuff in the back of the truck.
I'll get it later.
Oh man, that's so funny.
Yeah, but then, then it let us here.

(22:57):
Well, let me ask you, so you took over, let's, let's say 96 was the year you took over.
How long did it take?
Cause I remember there was a bunch of trucks on the road.
The guy's working for us.
Courts started to flourish, but how long did that take?
That took, I would say, it probably took about five years.
Five years to really get in the groove.

(23:17):
Oh yeah, five years.
I finally sit there and when I first started out, I didn't know what numbers were.
I didn't know that profit and loss.
I didn't know any of that stuff.
I knew it.
I just never thought it applied to my business.
Right.
I was like, oh, everyone else does it.
I don't know.
I just need to know off the top of my head.
And that's why I went into jobs and I would just charge whatever.
And the fifth year I said, I got to know my numbers because I had friends that were

(23:39):
Indianians, I started making friends in the industry and they're like, well, how much
you charge for this?
And I'm like, I charge them this, like, how'd you get that price?
I'm like, well, you know, and I just really throw the bull at them.
Like, oh yeah, I just figured out this.
And they're like, oh, can you show me those numbers one day?
I'm like, no.
Cause then that means I got to really sit down and do my number.
Yeah.

(23:59):
And like the fifth year into it, I said, I'm going to start learning my numbers.
And that's when I started taking all my numbers of what cost to run a business material, this,
that.
And it was a long time, you know, cause at that time I started reaching out to other
companies who are in other states, you know, went to California.
Yeah.
You took, you took a lot of trips to go check those out.
Yeah.

(24:19):
Maurice Mayo out in California, Frank Blau up in, up in Milwaukee.
Maurice Mayo.
Ronnie was talking about him in class one night.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He started, he started me as far as getting the numbers down.
Yeah.
In fact, that's a Maurice Mayo book right there.
That price book?
That price book is Maurice Mayo.
How old is that price book?
It's got to be 20 years old.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(24:40):
That's a 20 year old book.
It's got to be older than that.
It's got to be.
Listen, I'm not tossing it because it gives us a good basis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But Maurice Mayo, that's a book that they built for me, you know, and the numbers are
off.
They were more California numbers and their business California has cannot even match
up to New Jersey because it's different.
It's almost a different industry.

(25:00):
Yeah.
Well, it's different geography.
Like you need to put a water heater and a boiler in your truck in California because
your job is not five minutes away.
That's an hour and a half.
Yeah.
And you have to have a rolling box.
We have supply houses every 15 feet.
We talked about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you don't have to leave.
Lucky we are like not keeping stock.
It is a good thing.
That's why I used to keep stock.

(25:20):
You know, so, you know, it was, you know, I didn't know better.
I didn't, I didn't know like, you know, all I know is where I wanted to be.
And I always wanted to have, you know, five trucks doing $250,000 a year doing $1.2 million.
Then that's, and that's a number I had.
We were, we were getting there and the problem was that even though we knew our numbers, we
didn't know how to balance our numbers.
And we were spending this and doing this.

(25:42):
And, you know, like I said, I flew out, oh, I was all over.
I went to visit companies in Indiana.
I went to visit Texas.
And then I joined these, these, these businesses that were trying to sell you a franchise.
And I looked at plumber success international.
You know, these are all good industries right now, but or franchises, but, you know, every
time I went to talk to somebody, I would give them the format of that company.

(26:06):
I have a couple of good friends, very good in business.
And I'm like, nah, you don't want to do this.
Just keep your own name, know your numbers, you know, and, and then over the years, it
just kind of grew.
We bought trucks.
We hired guys.
And there was a lot of leap by faith.
I would just jump across a brook and say, okay, I hope it works.
Every time it worked, you know, it worked out great because it was, you know, we made

(26:28):
success with it.
You know, then we hired two, one plumber, two plumbers, three plumbers.
And then the area where, you know, where I didn't know, I would, you know, like the
bigger jobs that said, don't take those jobs.
Those are the jobs where I learned on that, not to take those jobs anymore, you know, stick
to service, you know, but again, you panic, you're like, oh, I'm going to get money in
here.
And because the big jobs come in when, in summer, when plumbers are generally slow, plumbers

(26:53):
needed.
And you're kind of like, I should really take this job.
But I think we were talking about it when I said, don't just take it to take it.
Because if you're going to lose money, well, just because you, yeah, just because you can
do something doesn't mean you should do it.
Right.
Right.
It's the biggest.
It's going to hurt you in the long run.
You can, you can run around and stay busy for a month and not meet your numbers, or you

(27:15):
can not take that job and leave the time open for stuff that floods in and build a bigger
job from that invoice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what I learned also is that these bigger companies, they don't do bigger jobs.
Yeah.
They do all service work.
Exactly.
The big, those, the ones you see all over on TV and the billboards, like the, you know,
the 24 hour service.
Yeah.

(27:35):
Those guys, you don't see those guys at a dish job.
They're not roughing out houses.
They're not.
They're doing service work.
And I finally got to a point, I said, okay, I need to run my business like it's Sears.
I don't see Sears building the dishwasher.
I see them just fixing the dishwasher.
Yeah.
And I said, I got to keep focus on that and that small stuff.
And what that did is just educated me more on how to become more of a businessman.
And, you know, again, it's the courses.

(27:57):
We just don't listen.
We have to go through hard knocks.
And that's when you were going through that.
I was like, I know he's going to learn it, but in my mind, I'm like, I don't want to
go through this again.
But, you know, if, if you were going to take over the company and run the way you are,
now the company is at a much higher level than I've ever been at, you know, because
the numbers are not only numbers that we're not only, do we know the numbers, but those

(28:19):
numbers allow us to make decisions.
Well, there's also a bigger access to technology than there was 25, 30 years ago.
Yeah, I had a book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I was going to ask you when you took, when you guys started building, what were
you doing for advertising?
We were doing this thing, this old thing.
It's called the yellow pages.
It was like, and there was a good friend of mine, Mike from, Mike from Waterworks had

(28:42):
all the big spots.
He had full pages.
Now, Mike is a multimillionaire, sold his company a couple of years ago.
He's part of our association.
Really good guy.
We've been friends a lot.
We're very good friends.
And whenever I got into trouble, he would always come over and say, Paul, do this.
It was only yellow pages.
That was it just throwing books in.
Yeah.
Where that, you go down, you see Route 17, a billboard, or you go radio advertisement.

(29:05):
Yeah.
And that was so far, but no, no, the big, our biggest advertising was my father said, put
you, put your paper in the town news, put your advertising in town news, you'll get
plenty of work.
And I was like, nah, I'm fine.
And I took it out of there for two weeks, my phone stopped ringing.
Really?
Yeah.
And then I put it back in and started ringing it.
Yeah.
So I just like, all right, I go, you know, that was the cheapest way to do it.

(29:27):
But we have town news today is basically Facebook.
Yeah.
I mean, cause I'm in a bunch of river edge groups.
Plus I want to stay current on what's going on in the town, especially with the switch
that they want to do with the schools.
Yeah.
So I'm kind of following that.
But you're basically, your yellow pages has become social media.
Yeah.
And once you jump into like, when we're trying to improve on advertising, it's all about,

(29:51):
there is no more yellow pages.
There's no more town news.
It's all online.
It's all social media.
And the problem is, if you don't have someone in your company to figure that out, you have
to hire somebody.
And that's what you do.
You're better.
I mean, when you, when the bonus of having you take over the company was the fact that
you know how to do that stuff.
And you're like, oh, I got these many hits.
I didn't know how to do a lot at first.

(30:13):
It did take me a while to figure out, because if you remember when I first started, we went
to, we went, we took someone from the church I was going to out to lunch.
Do you remember this?
He was like a yuppie tatted up.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And we sat down, we're like, we want to kind of hire you.
And then he put the invoice in front of us.
And we're like, okay, we don't want to hire you.

(30:34):
But he was going to, I wanted to, I wanted to put out some kind of media and he was going
to bring in a whole film and lighting and all this.
And then he's like, you know what?
Let me give you some advice.
And he talked to us about Google SEO.
He talked to us about utilizing social media, about making a blog and using the blog to

(30:54):
boost your stuff up.
So pretty much all our presence on social media has been completely organic.
And it takes forever.
I wanted to ask you how you told me how long it takes for you to get your, your company
it took a long time.
The first page of Google when somebody was doing it completely organic.
Yeah.
It took us two, three years.
Yeah.

(31:15):
Did Michael Eberson help you?
No, not at all.
Okay.
So, because when he was, he used to work for us.
Well, he gave me, actually Mike gave me some pointers.
He said you should use this, you should do that.
And then he, and he stormed off like Napoleon Dynamite to his words.
Here's the, here's the thing I want to talk about between the two of you is the difference

(31:36):
between how localized everything was with you.
Because with you it was put your name in the local papers versus you now it's put your
name on social media.
On the local pages.
And then you, no, no, no, less so local pages for, for us now.
And you just put your name out there.
Out there in social media.
And it gets to like we saw Belgium.
I mean, you get it as far out as, as, as Europe versus him who just advertised in the local

(31:59):
paper and his phone was ringing off the hook.
Not that we go that far, but it's, it's.
It was a different.
I mean, you were born 95.
Yeah.
I'm telling you, like the world today and the world back then, nobody had a cell phone.
It was just totally, totally different.
Yeah.

(32:19):
When he handed me this book over here, when Paul handed me this book, he was like, here,
this is our numbers.
Learn it.
And I was like, book.
What is that?
I have a telephone.
I have.
How does this thing move?
I have this.
What is this thing that goes back?
And then he goes.
Yeah.
Phil, Phil's like, there's an atlas.
There's a map in the truck and you need to use it.

(32:41):
He's like, if you need to use it, this is what it is.
And I'm like, it's like, it's like when that big block stone drops down.
Yeah.
What is this?
Are you going to have me drive a stick shift too?
I don't know.
I had to use the, I used that.
What's that?
I forget that map.
You open a book, you look at the number, you look at, you look at a number and you look
at the number and all of a sudden it finds your location and it didn't get the exact
street.

(33:02):
You had to find your street within that little box.
That's how I had to get it.
That's how I had to get a job at Lehman.
I had to read a map.
If my GPS is down, I'm lost.
If it's not in-premise or river edge local, I'm lost.
That's the difference between those old guys and you.
We can still start a fire with two sticks.
But you know, listen, the experience was good.

(33:24):
I think where Phil's taking this thing is much, I mean.
We're getting there.
No, but I think this, listen, when you first came in, it was very, very, very, very, very
frustrating because as a teacher of the businesses, you know, because I was like, 2008 almost
wiped us out, almost cleaned us.
I wanted to actually bring that up.
If you can, no, you're talking about it.

(33:46):
If you can kind of talk about when 2008 happened.
Yeah.
Well, what happened was that, what was I, when I was in 2008, I just-
You were living in Maywood.
I was living in Maywood.
Patty and I just got married.
About three and a half, four years into it.
And you know, four years into it and turns out that the economy just, everyone was buying

(34:13):
homes for a dollar.
And I had, I think we had about three homes that we purchased, you know, because not that
we were buying for a dollar, but you know, we had-
It was aggressive loaning.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But we weren't one of those people like, yeah, give me a home.
I think I can afford, no, we had people, we were renters.
Right.
And we had some people that were renting it and it was, it was great.

(34:33):
We were making money.
And then my, one of my Wall Street buddy says, hold onto your hat.
I'm like, why?
He goes, there's a crash coming.
I go, I go at that time, I didn't believe him.
I'm like, what do you mean a crash?
I couldn't, things were so good.
I was like, there's no way.
And I go, this is, this is, this is, you know, the best, best time of my life.
I'm doing this.
I can buy this and buy that.

(34:55):
And you had three trucks on the road.
Yeah.
Three trucks on the road.
Great. And all of a sudden 2008 came in and it was almost like overnight switch went off
and shut everything down.
I mean, the only people who were making money or people who knew it was coming Wall Street
guys, smart businessmen who knew their numbers and we're able to adjust.

(35:15):
We were not able to adjust.
Right.
You know, at that time, Patty and I owned a house in 2000 Maywood house, River edge.
We had people renting it.
And all my renters started stiffening me and they're like, well, I can't make the rent.
I'm like, and I had no recourse to say, well, you got him.
Well, you don't, there's, there's no recourse for.
Yeah.

(35:36):
So we had a Charlie Brown's restaurant staff.
We had one house is filled that whole staff that had filled their whole apartment and
that we had rentals on and they fired half their staff and they were gone.
And that was, oh man, that was like, it was a big knot.
It was like 5,000 a month.
You know, it was crazy.
It was crazy number.
And then they, then my one in Maywood, that guy lost his job and then the guy upstairs

(36:00):
lost his job and they had to go home back and move back.
One guy had moved back to his homeland.
I don't know where he was from.
And then, you know, we just, it just, it was like the chips just kept falling off and then
the phone just stopped ringing.
And that was it.
I was like, all right.
And I said, okay, God, this is where I am.
Okay.
Charlie, Charlie Brown's kitchen staff, they just picked up and left.

(36:21):
I mean, and just left my house in Shambles.
I couldn't even sell it.
How many people were living there?
Oh, how to be 20.
You know, it was just, you know, I didn't say anything because it's like, right.
Because they're paying rent.
They're paying rent.
Well, Charlie Brown's just taken care of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're paying rent and things, you know, it was just great, great, you know, and ended

(36:43):
up, you know, it was just every little piece would drop off.
And then like I said, the phone's just stopping and, you know, cause courts plumbing, he just
no, no calls, no one was spending any money.
Everyone was all nervous.
And then it just stopped.
It just no, no way to get money in.
So then, then I started getting creative.
I just would get discounts of people and that, that worked for a while.

(37:04):
And then it was really tough because Obama was the president and they could have fixed
this thing in 11 months.
Yeah.
They could have changed the economy, got it back up in gear and they didn't.
It was a political thing.
It was intentional.
It was intentional.
So I think that was a good start, draw it out for eight years.
And then after eight years, you know, we started to get back the first year, you know, after

(37:26):
losing everything.
I mean, we lost our homes.
Um, you know, we lost life.
I think so that happened in 2008.
I came on 2016 maybe.
Yeah.
2015.
2015, 2014, I think it was.
I'm pretty sure it was a year before Trump got elected.
So I think it was 2015.
And I, I, I kind of think you never really mentally, like you never put mentally, went

(37:52):
back into the business.
That was worse there.
Anything ever beat me up on.
So how long, how long were you in your success period from the time that you started to the
time that the await crash?
I was eight years.
No, probably longer than that.
Longer than that.
Well, you said 96, right?
You started to get over.
Yeah.
Still probably the full time, 12 years.
I mean, once we, once we took off, it was, you know, okay.

(38:14):
So it took you, it took you two years to figure everything out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Once we took off, it was, it was successful.
I mean, you know, I, I get, I always, I always watch the market now.
I was not the market.
I was watched the weather, you know, the, the, the bellwether of the economy now always,
you know, because, you know, I just, I always get concerned about where it is right now.

(38:35):
I was saying we have a, another recession coming up and I'm, in my mind, I'm thinking,
okay, we know our numbers.
We know we've got to be, you know, Philip knows what he has to do.
We got a rainy day fund.
Yeah.
We got, we got a safety net this time.
Yeah.
So we, you know, we shouldn't get smacked around.
So it took me about a year to really pull myself together.
And Patty was very good at it.
She was sitting there and she was like, she was getting nervous.

(38:57):
She never has been, she never been through it.
But one thing that my father always did is that he was always in the, we always had an,
we had an office on continental lab and we had the whole second floor because everyone
moved out.
So we made him our office and my father, we get up every morning and I'd be like, oh,
dad, no, this is going to happen.
We're going to do this.
We're going to make money and this is, and he would sit there and he would go get his
coffee and then he would sit there with his wife, Peter, T-shirt on it.

(39:22):
Across the table and he started just laughing at me.
He goes, what are you laughing at?
He goes, it'll be all right.
He goes, it'll work out.
Yeah.
He was very much like, he's lived through tougher stuff.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This was nothing to him.
He was like, lose.
I'm obviously, I'm, so I'm the first born, I'm the first oldest grandson out of what,
14, 15?
Yeah.
Yeah.

(39:43):
Maybe not that.
I think 12 or 13.
But I didn't know, we've talked about on the podcast growing up, grandpa was a tough guy.
He struggled with alcoholism and stuff.
But I always knew from the time I was born, him being this teddy bear, not so like a teddy
bear with, you know, a rough and tough teddy bear.
Oh, bark.

(40:03):
A lot of bark.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I don't know that.
I didn't really know the hard grandpa.
But for him to, for him to go from what he was way back then to sitting on, and it's
just sitting in his wife, Peter laughing at him saying, everything will be all right.
Don't worry about it.
All right.
And first of all, he was so happy he was there, you know, because the pressure was off him
and he knew I can take the pressure.

(40:24):
He knew that this is what I wanted.
You know, so he was happy about that.
He was like, it was like, okay, great, my son's taking it over.
Um, you know, it was a up and down, you saw the up and down stuff.
You saw the fact that we're trying to build it.
And he's like, whatever you want to do, it'll work out.
And he's like, you know, his one statement is like, they don't worry about it.
God's got control of this.
Yeah.

(40:45):
I have another question about that.
Did you, did you kind of feel, did he kind of feel like it was going to be you more than,
more so than you have seven, seven brothers, right?
Yeah.
No one wanted it.
Oh, absolutely.
Out of all, out of all.
No one wanted it.
Well, I know your father.
I know your father.
Well, let's go through it.
Well, you have all their brothers that are in construction.
Well, uncle, now they are.
Now, Mike is in construction.
He does construction.

(41:05):
Yeah.
But they were, you know, you understand at that time, they were still in the ministry.
Yeah.
You know, they were still, you know, Phil's dad was still trying to preach until he got
out of it.
And then my brother, Mike in Alabama, he was preaching and then he went to the same raw
deal that his father, Phil's father got.
And they both said, we're done.
We're going back and trying to make money because they were, they were losing money.

(41:26):
So they, they, I'm the only one who really was in the construction.
Pete was more of the management design.
He was the guy who, who had the idea to build things.
You know, he's very smart on like, let me build this and build this and design this
and very, very good artist.
And that was his thing.
He didn't want to get his hands dirty with any plumbing.

(41:47):
My brother Joe, he just, he went the other way and he just, he just said, I'm, I'll
reach this pile of crap and blow a thousand dollar bill.
Yeah.
You know, cause he was just smart that way.
He just, he was always smart.
Um, it just, just in that way.
I was the only really person from the beginning.
I knew what I wanted to do when I was eight, nine, eighth to ninth grade, eighth and seventh

(42:08):
grade, I knew I wanted to build something.
I wanted to be in construction.
Um, that's how long it was.
You know, so, and, uh, my father saw that he saw that, you know, I was the only one
really building club houses and trees when we were younger.
I was the only one doing all that construction.
You know, I would take on building the deck in the house.
I would do that outside.
Like I built that whole, I put on the whole edition.

(42:28):
I did the whole, uh, uh, outside and do the whole foundation of my parents home.
Yeah.
You know, we had no contract.
I did it all.
And my friends are like, how'd you know this stuff?
I go, I don't, it just came to me.
You know, and I'm not so like, oh, I'm great.
I'm just like construction came to me like numbers come to account.
There's people who are inclined.
Yeah.
And that was it.

(42:48):
Yeah.
So I mean, not, not to say that I'm great, but I started playing the piano out of nowhere
when just one of my parents got a piano, you know, and our family is we're pretty,
so we have an entrepreneurial mother.
I'm just staring at what I'm like this while I'm playing.

(43:09):
I think that's my son.
But I think, listen, there's a lot of demons in our family, but we're very talented.
I mean, I don't have that.
Yeah.
You're athletically talented.
I mean, any, any sport he'll, he'll pick up right away.

(43:32):
He's, he's, he's athletic, which I don't have.
I don't have it all.
Yeah.
I mean, try playing basketball with me.
He invited me out to play basketball once with his friends.
We went to 24 hours.
I was just like, I don't really, I don't really, so we, I'm like, all right, fine.
I'll do it.
And they're like, listen, don't bring him back.

(43:53):
He just gets in our way.
Yeah.
Oh man.
That's so funny.
You know what?
This is what we'll do.
Let's take, let's take a little intermission here.
We'll come back and then we'll have more conversations and stories about the past.
But yeah, stick with us.
We'll be back in a few.
We'll be back in a few.

(45:02):
Alright, you guys ready?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alright, we're back.
Oh, my notepad.
Intermission, you want your notepad?
Yeah, give him my notepad.
Hold on, let me...
My questions.
Fine.
You can ask questions.
We're back here on...

(45:22):
Thanks for joining us again.
Appreciate it.
We're back here with my uncle Paul, Max, as always.
The two dogs hanging out, but we're just sitting here sharing stories.
I wanted to say something, bring something up.
In my mind today at some point, but I totally forgot it.

(45:46):
Anyway, what were we talking about when we left off?
He was telling more stories.
I don't know exactly what the stories were.
First of all, is this a brand new studio?
No, but I did want to ask him...
Is that real center block?
Are those those quality shelving that you can get at Hespert?
This is why we're not doing video yet, because if you saw...

(46:09):
Yeah.
But I did want to ask you because now you're less so in the field.
You don't do too much of the field work, right?
More so in the office.
You still help us out with everything, but you also...
What do you do now?
So I took a job with Dumont.
I'm a board of education.
A buddy of mine, Jim Wickman, is a principal.

(46:31):
And at that time, my wife and I had a conversation,
and she's like, can we survive doing this?
And I'm like, we can.
She goes, but you don't look like you can do it anymore.
I'm like, I can.
Phillip's in here, and Phillip is a big help.
He's a big thing.
She goes, and she was more like, can we afford to do you and Phillip?

(46:54):
And the money I wanted to make, probably not.
At the time.
At the time.
Yeah, now we can.
If I came back, I think we can probably turn to singing
and turn into a million dollar company.
Well, not to get political.
This has nothing to do with politics, because everything that happened,
exactly how it went down, I started 2015.

(47:15):
And like I said, you seemed like you were kind of like...
Yeah, I was burnt.
Yeah, just burned out.
The second Trump got into office, it blew up.
Yeah, it turned around.
That was great, that day.
Make courts great again.
We've been kind of up and down here and there, but there's definitely a

(47:35):
difference since 2016.
Now, right now, Nancy can even sense it on the phones that people are
apprehensive to spend money.
So now we have to figure out how to alter our business and alter our approach
and figure out advertising to compensate for that.
So what do we do?
We offer options.
We offer people six different options where they can pick in their budget.

(48:00):
We'll make sure that the bottom option has everything that's going to make sure that
you have no, your emergency is going to be taken care of.
But if you want to prevent having another plumber to deal with something down the road,
we'll take care of a whole bunch of stuff in one shot.
That's your top option.
You get a really good warranty.
So I think that has definitely kind of been helping.
Yeah.

(48:21):
Just so you know, get called for plagiarism.
What?
What?
I mean, I'm the guy who introduced us to pricing.
To the option pricing.
Now he's a big part of why we took that next step.
Yeah.
He built us numbers crunchers and he's a good friend of ours.
And I've, we sat, we sat, I sat in his seminar.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(48:41):
He's, he's, he's excellent.
And that's how when I sat with Phillip in that seminar to tell us about our numbers,
I mean, he was out of all the guys I saw about numbers, he was the more relaxed, like,
right, here's the numbers.
He just knew it.
And he was like, I'm not trying to sell you something.
The one that was just like, listen, it's this easy.
Yeah.
You just have to know this.
If you know this, you know your business.

(49:01):
Yeah.
And that's what it came down to.
It came down to where he was so relaxed and telling you about it.
And again, he had, how many people in that room?
There had to be 50 plumbers in that room.
I would say if you got two or three that are following that, I mean, that's the numbers
game.
You know, so you look at the amount of people that sat there.
Guys are in their habits.
Yeah.

(49:22):
Well, yeah.
And he's like, yeah, I'm good.
But you'll be putting the flapper in for 50 bucks and you're wondering why you can't
pay your bills every month.
You were just talking about, you see people are hesitant in pricing.
People are always hesitant in pricing.
No matter what industry it is, people like, well, how can you, like, I go to a store and
Patty gets uncomfortable when I asked the guy, we just put a watch machine.

(49:44):
I go, is that the best you can do?
She's like, Paul, it's fine.
I'm like, no, it's not.
I'm like, I want to see what I can get.
Because if I don't ask the question, you know, you're going to, you know, it's how you present
it.
And I think what the six options always gives the person the right way to look at it.
And they're not sitting there like, you know, one price, you go on one price, you're done.
You got one shot.

(50:04):
You get to one cork, you're done.
And then you figure, had to figure out, why didn't get that job?
If we go on with six different prices, and this is what Mike taught us, he said, you
go on six different prices.
He goes, you know, the percentage up here at the top, you got maybe 1%.
The percentage at the bottom is another 1%.
It's going to be right in the middle.
And you already put yourself into a 30% profit on the job itself.

(50:27):
You're not ripping off the customer.
They're making a decision.
All they got to do is point at what option.
And that's it.
Once they look at those options and say, I want that one, that one, that one.
And the warranty is going to fluctuate between the options.
Yeah.
Because if you're going, I don't know any other company that's offering a five year
warranty on anything.
Well, if you go to gold, you know, these, these, these franchise company, Ben Franklin
and all these companies, they have a lot of warranties, but they have the experience

(50:55):
and knowledge that backs them up to allow them to handle those warranties.
Cause they get a lot of warranties.
Yeah.
You know, then that's why, like if you go, if we go to sell courts plumbing, you know,
they don't look at your, they don't look at your company, how many trucks you have.
They see how many service contracts you have, how many people you, are you servicing in
Burton County, you know, they don't say, Oh, you got four trucks.

(51:17):
Cause you, you know, once you buy a company and you change ownership, that company automatically
takes a dive and it goes into the toilet, not in the toilet, you know, like when Mike
It's something you have to recover from.
Yeah.
Exactly.
When Mike from Waterworks sold to gold metal, was it gold metal?
Is it gold or something gold?
I mean, it's, it's another, it's a franchise company.
You know, once they took Mike out of the equation and they ran it themselves, customers walked

(51:45):
away.
Yeah.
You know, then you get different management, you know, that's why, you know, everyone's
like, Oh, sell my company.
Well, first of all, you gotta find a company that wants to buy your business.
Back in 2008, 2009, before Philip came in, there was companies that were going to buy
smaller companies.
They said, they said, the real way to build your business is buy other businesses.

(52:06):
Yeah, that's fine.
But if that company can't show you the right way to do numbers, they found out that there
wasn't enough companies out there that were doing the right numbers.
Right.
They were like, Oh, I have 10 trucks on the road.
Well, you understand, some of these guys who have 10 trucks on the road are living from
paycheck to paycheck still.
They just got a lot of bills.
Right.
I mean, I have friends who have, you know, they're, you know, they're, they buy something

(52:29):
and then they're like, okay, I got a worth, it's gonna take me two years to pay that off.
You know, I have a good friend of mine, Dan Kinnegan.
He's an excellent businessman.
He knows his stuff.
Kinnegan landscaping.
He's, he's got trust all over the place.
He's funny.
He laughs.
He goes, I don't know, I'm buying something else.
Now he's makes a ton of money.
He does well.
And that's one thing I did.
I always not surrounded myself purposely with people who know what they're doing.

(52:51):
I just, I just made friends with.
Yeah.
Made a lot of friends.
Yeah.
Paul, Paul made a lot of friends everywhere we go.
We can't go anywhere.
How many people, you know, how many people stop me in the truck or I'm going to stop
play and they've rolled out and rolled down the window, they're with Paulie.
Where's Paul?
How's Paulie doing?
How's Quarty doing?
Geez.
He knows everybody and everything.

(53:12):
We walk in the.
Supply house, the manager of the supply house knows him.
Every company that we work with, where's Paulie?
Well, then I'll call Paul.
Oh, this guy said, how he's like, who's that?
I have no idea who he is.
That came from my father.
My father was the same way.
My father knew everybody.
It's like every, like we were talking about going into jobs and when, when Philip took

(53:33):
over, Phil's like, nobody wants to talk to me.
They want to talk to you.
I'm like, give it some time.
Yeah.
Same thing happened my dad when I, when, you know, where's your father?
Where's your father?
And, you know, it's just, you always got to put yourself out there and always meet other
people, other companies, because there's one little thing that company will show you.
Right.
And it'll change your business.
This company, Maurice Mayo, showed me one little thing and changed my numbers.

(53:56):
That number chart was, which gives us the example and the actual, that came from a company
in Florida of a buddy of mine who came from Plumber Success International.
He just gave me a sheet one day.
I was walking out the door.
He goes, what's it?
He goes, he goes, you might want to follow this.
It shows you how to do numbers or it shows you an idea of where you want to be.
Ever since I left that, that one sheet, I based all our numbers off.
And it was just a fluke.

(54:17):
I'm walking out the door to get on the plane.
He's like, here, you might want to take that for you.
We profit off of all of those relationships.
I mean, we work together with all of these companies that were, you know, that you're
friends with the owners and stuff like that.
We work with them, give them job referrals too.
I walked into my, the building that my buddies live at, the doorman saw me walking with the

(54:38):
shirt and he goes, how's Paulie doing?
You know Paulie?
I was like, I can't go anywhere in Bergen County without somebody knowing Paul.
But it's a good thing.
It's a good thing.
My grandfather was a social butterfly though, the same thing.
Remember his funeral?
We had the funeral.
We had the funeral set up over here, right over here.

(54:59):
And we all set up for it and the line was down the road to come in.
It was insane.
Oh, it's crazy.
This one guy, come walked in, he was like a homeless guy.
And he's like, your grandfather, he would buy me a cup of coffee and pray with me for
years.
And people would walk in, oh, Richard touched me this way.
Richard touched me that way.
He used to minister me this way.

(55:20):
It was like, holy smokes.
And then you don't realize that.
And then now I'm to the point where, oh, how's Phil?
How's Phil doing?
Like, oh, you know.
I haven't asked that.
I haven't heard anybody.
I knew you were going to.
It's always.
I get that all the time.
People are like, oh, Phil's doing a great job.
And I'm out of the picture.
I'm out of the picture.
I know the question we asked is, what am I doing now?

(55:42):
So because now, Philip is the face of our company.
And Frank is the face.
Like, you guys now, Max being with us.
I mean, you guys are the face of the company.
We want to grow from there.
So I took a job when it got tough.
And this is where Philip jumped in.
I said, you know, I had talked to my wife about it.
I said, I got to, you know, Philip looks like he wants to come in.

(56:06):
My buddy Jim Wickman says, there's a job.
I'm waiting for a position as a director of buildings and grounds.
I'm like, you know, I got a lot of experience in business.
I got a lot of experience with deal with people.
I'm not the best as far as clerical work.
You know, when you get into a school district, it's all like, you know,
where's your report and follow up?
Oh, it's, it tries you nuts.
But, you know, listen, I've been there and after seven years,

(56:28):
I'm just starting to learn it now.
Well, that's what I wanted to ask you to is that, do you like where you're at now?
And do you recommend that for people who are in the trades?
Because you are still kind of in the...
I love where I'm at now.
No, no, no, no.
Is anybody going to hit us when we're in school?
Your experience and your experience is what brought you to where you are now.

(56:50):
And I guess I don't want to call it a comfortable situation,
but you have like a little bit more of a comfortable situation
where you have this nice steady job.
You don't come home looking like that anymore.
No, I don't.
I come home looking like I'm dressed like in front of you.
But it's a different stress.
It's still stressful because what my position is, I managed eight,

(57:11):
I think it's seven or eight maintenance guys and about 32 custodials.
And is it different?
It's completely different because it has nothing to do with the business knowledge.
My business knowledge doesn't even help me in there
because the budgets and stuff are handled in a business office.
My job is more managing.
And you have to understand each one of those trades that comes in.

(57:34):
And I do.
I do.
It's just something I just picked up on.
So one thing I'm complimenting on is that when an emergency happens,
something has to get done, it gets done.
The other part that it takes me time is the clerical end of it.
It's not the clerical.
It's the, I would say the numbers, the reporting.
Yeah.

(57:55):
Working for the government.
The computers.
No, nothing.
It's like in schools you have to have reports like the playgrounds fix.
They have standards that have to kind of be upheld.
Yeah, exactly.
Is this fixed?
Is that fixed?
And in our industry, we don't have to have that.

(58:16):
It's fill the truck, go out to do job because it's all up here.
And you build it in the school districts, you're always reporting.
Always reporting.
Exactly.
You're always reporting.
Now, I have about, I think it's 60 other schools that we, 60 other schools that
are in my association.

(58:38):
So we all get together and we talk about it.
And everyone goes through the same problem.
It's the, it's a superintendent and the business administrator that run the show.
The building and grounds guy is kind of like the grunt, nothing grump, but I'm saying they're
the guy that has to handle everything behind the scenes and make sure it works.
So yeah, it's a challenging job.
It's different stress.

(58:59):
I mean, I'm stressed sometimes about a lot of stuff, but sometimes more stressed there
than I would be in here.
But my stress with courts plumbing was never to doing a job.
Sometimes it was, it was more like growing.
That was my stress, trying to get bigger, trying to make, trying to build a company was more
of my stress.
So I would see other trucks with two or three trucks out there.

(59:20):
And I'm like, you know, I'm like, oh, how did they get the truck?
It's like, and why is this truck look better than mine?
You know, I mean, and you know, when Philip came in, he bought that extra design, like
that courts plumbing.
I asked Philip to make, I go, this is what I like to see.
And you make me a design.
He told me the logo.
That was when I was 12 years old.
Yeah, exactly.
I said, can you make me something looks cool?
I want something looks like more of a round circle, California look and you know, so people

(59:44):
remember it.
You know, you see that truck, you see that logo from down the street.
Everyone, everyone.
Grandma said all the time, she goes, I don't care.
I know it's our name, but she goes, I can see your trucks for a while away.
Yeah.
You know, because of.
It's simple.
Yeah.
That's the thing.
It's simple.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's definitely it's a simple logo.
And once he made that, I printed it up and said, there we go.
Yeah.

(01:00:04):
We were laughing.
You remember, remember when grandma was in the house and the little living room area
where the fireplace is in your house now?
How she had that table?
She's still there.
Oh, God.
She sprinkled over the thing.
That's terrible.
Holy cow.
She's still in the corner.
You can see the chair rocking every once in a while.
Chair rocks at night.

(01:00:28):
But she had the table with all the pictures of the married, like the family.
Yeah, yeah, we're sitting there for Christmas.
So the table sprinkled with Pete and his wife, Nancy and Don.
What?
So we didn't.
No, we picked pictures, just pictures, like a whole bunch of photos and frames.
And then so I remember my dad made this joke and Paul and Patty are on like a nine by 12

(01:00:55):
in the middle of their wedding picture right in the middle.
There's like a spotlight from the ceiling, like the golden child.
And you know, it's funny, your wedding picture is across across in the back of the sanctuary
that the photographer just happened to get.
It's like, geez, you think she's trying to tell everyone something?
It was across on top of my head.
I was like, meanwhile, everyone's like their pictures are like the photo booth that you

(01:01:16):
get from the shore.
They started tearing brown because they've been in the sunlight.
You know what?
I'll never forget.
These are the children that didn't take over the business.
They had to pick them up every day because they found their place.
Oh, man.

(01:01:36):
And that frame, your frame, your and Patty's frame was both into the floor.
Yeah.
It would last through a hurricane.
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about right now, but you know what?
I'll never forget.
So most of the courts has lived in this area when we were growing up.
So every Christmas and then Mike in the house.
Yeah.
And then Mike and Darlene would drive up for Christmas.
So all the cousins would come up.

(01:01:57):
So Christmas and Thanksgiving, it was the huge holidays just packed house.
Do you remember when you guys were trading?
This was one of the funniest things I'll never forget.
You guys were trading gifts like the aunts and uncles were trading gifts and you gave
Linda this ceramic pot and you're like, listen, this was made on site specifically for you.

(01:02:20):
And it was like, I don't know, 1998 or something like that.
And she turns it over, she's like, great, and it was like sketch 1994.
He's like, no, they fired it right in the kiln, right in front of you.
We had to go back and pick it up.
So what happened was they, there was a plate in the city.
It's like, we'll make your kilns and, you know, you know, whatever, we'll, we'll fire

(01:02:41):
here and then you can pick it up in a couple of days.
So we did.
I had it made up and then I went back and I picked it up and they're like, here you go.
I'm like, okay, never looked underneath to look at the date.
Lady had like, it was like two years.
It was made like manufactured in Thailand.
But for the next two hours, it was just making fun of the whole situation.
Like my dad comes in, the lady's like, oh, be careful.

(01:03:03):
Let's still have the kiln.
It was so funny.
And I remember all the cousins were sitting down here just watching you guys interact.
It was, I'll never forget.
It was like, what'd you do?
Get me a spittoon.
Oh my God.
So I was dying laughing because I was like, you idiot.
See those were the times like, listen, we're, we're an abrasive family, but I remember growing

(01:03:31):
up and when the house was packed and I, I'm grateful to be able to experience, to be from
a big family.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not.
You know, and it's just, just the, everyone growing up like, and looking back through
old pictures when the, when the house was like on its third renovation back then with,
when the whole room was set up and like seeing Nancy and you and Pete and us as like two

(01:03:53):
and three year olds just watching.
It's just, that front room, we just sit around that, that, you know, the fireplace.
And then just make fun of each other and make fun of each other.
And that was dad.
Now he's doing that all the time.
You know, it was his personality, but then he had it seven times over.
Yeah.
You know, and it just, and everyone had the same thing.
You know, everyone tried to outdo somebody with a funny joke.
Oh my God.

(01:04:13):
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And it would go on forever.
Yeah.
And the cousins, we were all young kids, but we wouldn't be playing.
We'd be sitting back and just listening to everything.
Learning how to ball bus.
Yeah.
And learning how to ball bus.
Pound for pound was like the loudest room because everyone was laughing so hard.
I'll never forget that with the, the jokes with, it went on for two hours just making

(01:04:35):
fun of this whole situation.
I was sitting there and Linda called me off guard with that.
I was laughing so hard.
I'm like, I'm like, I go, cause the lady will walk in.
She's like, here you go.
I'm like, yeah, that's the same design.
I had no idea.
Yeah.
I was like, yeah, it looks good.
Yeah.
I'm just a guy picking up a gift.
And that's what it was.
She had it all wrapped up so I couldn't see it.
And I was like, and then when it, then I didn't realize the date on it until Linda opened

(01:04:56):
up.
She just turned it over.
Just to check it out.
Scammers.
Oh, it's ridiculous.
Be careful.
It's still hot from the camera.
Sucker.
Sucker.
She should have the hair dryer on before she had it on.
She just let it out in the sun.
Oh man.
That's crazy.
Oh, that was so funny.
I mean, that house, that how many of your models has that house been through?

(01:05:20):
Oh, a thousand.
It's still needs, it still needs more.
I mean, Patty and I put a ton of money in for the inside.
So the inside doesn't replicate the outside.
So Patty had the rug guy come over and because she wants to put a runner up.
So we like, we ripped out everything.
I mean, Uncle Mike came up and he helped us and, and, you know, and then it was just
the way it was.
It was just split, you know, grandma lived on one side while we fixed the other side

(01:05:42):
and it was just tons and tons of work that was done on it.
You know, so the outside hasn't changed.
I read that outside, I think in my twenties.
You're talking early nineties.
Yeah.
I remember when that was done.
Early nineties.
So the outside, the, hasn't been changed forever.
You know, we changed the roof and stuff like that.

(01:06:02):
And so we did completely re renovated the inside of the house.
I mean, it looks similar, but it's all open now.
It looks beautiful.
But the only thing that's the same as the staircase and maybe the kids bedrooms.
No.
They've been replaced all staircases.
They're now wider, four foot staircase.
Well, I meant the format, but yeah, you're right.
The staircase is nice and wide.
So we wide the basement and stuff like that.

(01:06:23):
So we have, so Patty's like, oh, let me get some runners in this house.
And you know, we can put them up or go in a staircase.
So the guy came over and I kind of met him outside and he goes, he looks at the outside
of the house.
He goes, am I in the right house?
I go, I go, why?
He goes, oh, nothing.
It's like, it's like this house outside.
It looks like it looks like something from Halloween.
So he walks inside, he's like, I gotta say one thing, your house inside does not represent

(01:06:47):
your house outside.
It's like an Airbnb where you're like, the inside is gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he was like, he said, this is one of the nicest inside of Helms ever seen.
I go, well, you know, we're trying to get to the outside, just take him forever.
You know, because,
Well, I mean that open floor plan, I remember putting in that beam, the main beam that comes
across.
Were you with us?
I did.
We mean, you did the plumbing.

(01:07:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you did the plumbing in that house.
How many?
I mean, it's wood, then metal, then wood, then we packed in.
How big is that thing?
That's gotta be almost, I think it's 14 inches wide.
And we had to put it through the front window.
Yeah.
That was insane.
We had to crank it up and we put two of them.
We put three of them in because we didn't want any headers in it looking, you know,

(01:07:29):
coming down.
I remember the original, I mean, I'm old enough to remember the original floor plan.
And when you walked into the hallway and this, and then you walked through this doorway
to this room and then this doorway, I remember a chuch.
Oh yeah.
I mean, I remember that cat.
Yeah.
At his last day, he was peeing on the stove.
Did anybody clean the stove?
Because there's a water on it, not a chuch.

(01:07:51):
Remember Cody?
This is my stove.
Yeah.
Remember you got Cody?
No.
So Paul got Cody and this is when he was working for the business.
Who's Cody?
Cody was a border collie.
Oh.
A border collie dog.
So he got Cody and then the next day he brought over, he's like, oh, I got this dog
and then he never took it back home.
So it stayed with grandma and grandpa.
But it was, I was staying at the house and my dad was from Ohio staying at the house

(01:08:15):
for a couple of weeks.
And it was like maybe 6, 37 o'clock in the morning.
And Cody took a dump on the kitchen floor and stayed there for six weeks.
I was sleeping in the living room on the couch.
My dad was in the other room sleeping on the couch.
And we heard grandpa come down, he walks into the kitchen and he goes, oh, the dog crapped

(01:08:36):
on the floor freaking out.
So me and my dad both pretended to be asleep because we didn't want to clean it up.
And we hear him in there cleaning up, gagging, like almost puking that it was so disgusting.
But we pretended to be asleep like we turned our heads.
That's the problem.

(01:08:58):
Everyone wanted a dog and nobody wanted to take care of it.
I was like, oh, I got a dog and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I got to work and I got to
do this.
That's how Frankie came here.
Yeah.
My sister got that dog.
And the best thing you do is you bring her on the ride so they're not alone.
Yeah.
Cody, if it wasn't for mom and dad, Cody would have been, she eventually got hit on continental.

(01:09:18):
That was terrible.
But that dog needed to run.
Yeah, it needed to.
It was crap.
It couldn't.
So the story when Cody was killed, so I'm sitting there.
This is like my third date with Patty.
We're living in May when I'm driving to the house and my brother's tea calls me and he
goes, Paul, I just want to let you know.
Cody was killed today, hit by a car.

(01:09:38):
I'm like, what?
And all of a sudden I'm like, I'm crying like a two year old.
That's when she fell in love with you.
No, Patty was next to me.
You showed us offside.
What happened?
I'm like, my dog.
That's our date.
Yes.
And she's like, my dog got killed.
And she's like, who, what?

(01:09:59):
Who got killed?
I'm like, my dog was killed on continental and got hit by a car.
I'm like, yeah.
I'm like, okay, let's go out to dinner.
It's an awful feeling.
It's like texting your friend.
Like I'll call you back one day for this big fruit cake.
We're breaking up into a minute.
He's crying right now and I don't know how to deal with this.
Continental.
Continental have.
Yeah.

(01:10:20):
It's clean.
It happened to me too.
Yeah.
Remember?
At work?
No.
Remember my mother called me with Cosmo?
That's right.
My dog who lived for 17 years, everything was good and healthy.
And my neighbor ended up running him over.
Oh really?
She ended up back in.
She ended up getting a little bit deaf and blind.
She ended up, she's backed over him.

(01:10:41):
He curled up and went to sleep behind the back tire.
And then she backed.
And they backed over him.
They called me while I was at work at the supply.
We just pulled in the Ferguson.
They're freaking out, calling me on the phone.
And he goes, what the hell?
What happened?
Because he saw my face and I was like.
My dog just died.
They just killed my dog.

(01:11:02):
And from then, for what was it like two weeks where I worked with you?
Dude, it's not easy.
To like 10, 11 o'clock at night because I couldn't come home and see the empty cage.
Oh yeah.
When you see the empty cage, I was like.
How many animals have been lost on that?
No.
Listen, I mean, Molly, I mean, I was sad that would happen there.

(01:11:23):
I mean, it's just a freak accident.
And that's when I saw Patty.
I saw her cry and like, see?
I was like, see what I mean?
I was like, no, you see, they're closer than family.
When Frankie goes, we're closing the company after a month.
I had my choice.
Remember when grandma got Cassie and she had her care for like 12, 13 years old and then

(01:11:46):
her back allayed started to go.
And you're trying to pet her, you're like, oh, well, about time for the old ball toss
across the continent.
Go get it.
Go get it.
No, they didn't stop.
They said.
They said, the kid, the guy who hit Cody, he didn't even see him.
He backed around and pulled off.
But again, what is he going to do?

(01:12:07):
But it is, it is a jerk thing to do.
But still, I mean, that's that.
You pull over, you hit something inside.
Listen, I can see it a squirrel.
Listen.
Oh, who was it?
After you hit a squirrel, it's okay.
So Sadie, our dog Sadie died.
She had a liver disease and 10 months she was gone.
So I remember I was driving and was like, all of a sudden I see a squirrel.
I'm like, I never swore for a squirrel.

(01:12:28):
You just, you know, because I'm not going to lose my life.
I'm like, I don't want to kill it.
I almost got a five car accident.
It's a stupid squirrel.
Yeah, but I was only and then I remember, I mean, I remember one time, like, my mother
hit a, she hit a groundhog.
We she was driving me to soccer.
She hit a groundhog and he just hear the clunk and we couldn't find the field.

(01:12:53):
So she had with turnaround, keep passing this groundhog that was now dead in the road with
his tongue sticking out.
And we had to pass it like three times and every time she saw it, she started tearing
up a little bit.
Oh my God, I can't look at that.
Oh, that's when Pete was telling a story about Anne Linda, when she, she hit a possum and
she felt so bad that she had to run it over again.

(01:13:17):
Some story Pete said, that doesn't even make sense.
Pete, Pete, the way Pete said, just to put it out of his misery, he says, you know that
possums play possum.
He thought he was Scott free, but he ran him back over.
The thing was still alive.
He's like laying there with what I open like, all right, she's almost around the corner.
And then she just comes around.
Is she gone yet?
Pete's a great story teller.

(01:13:39):
He's so funny.
You know what?
Well, my dad's a great story.
Yeah.
You forget, you get him on his podcast, you'll start laughing.
I don't care who's listening to it.
I wish, I mean, I wish I could record Christmases like 15, 20 years ago.
It was just, it was so funny.
I remember I had a couple, I had a couple of friends sleep over one time.

(01:14:01):
This is when grandpa was alive.
So he, my grandfather used to play the guitar, but he knew three chords.
He knew three chords and he altered every song that he learned into those three chords.
So then I started picking up the guitar.
I played piano my whole life and I didn't have a piano.
So I started messing with the guitar and then I was, and I figured I had to like individually
pick the strings because you're not allowed to touch my guitar anymore.

(01:14:24):
But I remember.
I was like, give me, I don't like it.
Exactly.
Don't touch his thing.
I had, I had lived with them.
My parents moved out to Ohio.
So I was living with grandma and grandpa for a couple of years and I had a couple of friends
stay over and every morning he would come down and he would play hymns on the guitar.
And my two friends passed out.
They were sleeping on the floor in the living room and they woke up to him leaning over them,
playing hymns.
Oh my God, this weed.

(01:14:44):
It's so funny.
His feet are on their back.
He had no shame.
His feet are on their back.
Excuse me.
I'm trying to play here.
He had no, he had no shame.
Well, you're talented musically, you're musically inclined.
You're in a band, right?
I was in a couple of bands.
I know every time we go to a customer's house if they have a piano, that's it.

(01:15:04):
He jumps right on it.
Is your piano tuned?
I can't, I try to get my kids to play.
Like Abby has a great voice, but she doesn't want to sing.
She's just, she doesn't want to sing in front of people.
I think she doesn't want to, I hear her like singing through her bedroom door, you know,
and like she's singing the songs, I'm like, and then she was in sixth grade, she had a
solo part and the top singer at Riverdale, senior year, heard her voice and like, Abby,

(01:15:31):
you should be a singer because you're going to go far with this.
She didn't even do choir in high school.
No.
She's, I just, I just said, because she, listen, Abby, you know, she doesn't want to be that
front person, which is fine.
She doesn't want to be that, you know, because she, you know, I think she's shy in that way.

(01:15:52):
Yeah.
You know, but her voice, I mean, it's got to come from grandma side, you know, but.
It has to because I'm musically inclined, David can sing.
Yeah.
David can sing.
Oh yeah, I heard him sing.
Timmy and Justin and down south in Alabama, well, they make music.
You've heard Tim.
Oh, won't you come down to Alabama?

(01:16:16):
That's all they have.
That's all they know.
Tim's on a jug.
Justin's on the spoons.
No, I mean, Matt and Jennifer, Jennifer does for time.
I mean, there's something about art and music for our family for something that we, we picked
that up very, it's like in our blood.

(01:16:37):
My family.
That's where your mom's at.
Appreciate that, but crushes it in my family.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
Crushes.
I mean, I was younger, my younger sister was the only one.
Yeah.
My younger sister was the only one.
She was like, when she was younger, you know, everybody has dreams.
Right.
My younger sister's dream was to be a singer.
My younger sister's dream was to be a singer.

(01:17:00):
His father will crush your dreams in 20 minutes.
That's what it is.
We're dream crushers and we laugh about it later.
I could have been somebody.
No, you couldn't have.
No, go wash the dishes.
Yeah.
Go get a real job.
All right, get to do something that pays the bills.
My younger sister wanted to be a singer and she was fine, but my father and my mother

(01:17:21):
and you know what the siblings joined in too.
Yeah.
We're just like, are you out of your mind?
Well, hold on.
Let me interject here because we don't encourage each other to do music.
We get to go get a real job and do that on the side.
I'm with your father and I mean, it's like winning the lottery to become a famous singer
and make a lucrative.
But for some reason our family's very creative, our family's very outgoing and I don't know.

(01:17:47):
I mean, grandpa as the patriarch, he was just a funny guy.
What a story.
Yeah.
I mean, listening to him growing.
I mean, Jersey, we talked about on the very first podcast, him growing up in Elizabeth.
Where my father has his business now.
He grew up a couple blocks from your father's dealership.
He grew up in that area for the first like 16 years of his life and then he joined the

(01:18:11):
military at 1617.
He went in early just to get the hell out because he had a horrible.
I changed everything for him because he wanted to get Elizabeth.
His mother and him never got along or he got along, but his mother hated everybody.
No.
So, well, I mean, you would probably know better than me, but...

(01:18:32):
Actually, you know better than me because some of the stories you tell them, you're
like, oh yeah, you're right.
He used to take us all out and just talk about this stuff.
But his mother, his twin brother, Rocky, his mother loved Rocky.
She hated him.
That was it.
Yeah.
And I remember my grandfather told me, he didn't...

(01:18:53):
You guys didn't go see his mom a lot, right?
Never.
He said the one time he remembers meeting grandpa's mother, he walked in with his
kids, with his kids that she had not met.
She goes, what the hell are you doing?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Now I remember that.
Yeah.
And my dad will never forget that.
Yeah.
I mean, he had a horrible relationship with his mom.
Yeah.

(01:19:13):
Well, it was her.
It was her.
I mean, listen, he had a great relationship with his brother Rocky.
You know, near the end they had, and they were really close, you know, but that was
about it.
Even his sister, Minnie, you know, she was like the mother, you know, she would bust his
jobs, you know.
But dad always had people around him that would always, you know, bust his chops, and
that's why he gave it right back, you know.

(01:19:35):
But then he had some real idiots around him that were just idiots.
Like, he used to go to the deli every morning.
And so my dad and I were working one day, and, you know, he gets out of the truck, because
after he had his hard tech, he got back, he had a hard transplant.
Or before he had the hard transplant, he started feeling a little better.
And they gave him a defibrillator and this.
So he worked with me a couple of times.
And then so one day we're in the driveway, I got out of the truck and I'm like, come

(01:19:59):
on, dad, let's go.
Let's get something.
He goes, yeah, give me a second.
You know, so he goes, I just want to get these buckets off the back of the truck.
So he's carrying the bucket, you know, kind of walking in the drive and he goes, I think
I'm going to pass out.
Boom, drops it around.
And he's like trying to breathe.
So at the same time I'm sitting there, one of the owners from the deli, I never liked

(01:20:19):
this guy.
The red hair guy I always liked, the dark hair guy was always at whatever.
Which deli are you talking about?
River edge deli down.
You used to go every morning to the river edge deli.
It's not still.
No, no, that Mike's.
What is it now?
It's that whole new strip mall.
They ripped out.
It was the old Huffman Cues.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
It used to be Huffman Cues down there.

(01:20:39):
And right next to Huffman Cues was the river edge deli.
So dad would go there every morning, first coffee, hang out with the guys in the back.
And there was two owners, Ted, there was Ted and I can't remember the other owner.
Nobody else would know.
But so Ted was kind of like the jerk of the owners.

(01:21:02):
So he's driving by.
He's my dad on the ground.
He sees me trying.
He pulls up, rolls down at me.
He goes, Hey, is everything all right?
I'm like, no, can you call the police?
He goes, Yeah, no problem.
Rolls window up and takes off.
I'm like, you got to be kidding me.
Oh yeah, drives away.
I'm like, Hello.
So there's no cell phones back then.
Billy Walker comes right over from the next door.

(01:21:22):
And it's like, Paul, you need to go just call the police when you help right here.
He gets on a phone, go run the side calls, calls the police.
They come over, they take him to hospital.
Dad was in the hospital, I think for another month after that.
That's when he got his heart transplant.
He never worked plumbing after that again.
You know, even when he got his heart transplant, he goes, I'm done.
Yeah.

(01:21:42):
He still went out, but he didn't do really anything.
He went around for a ride.
I mean, he was, he was what, 120 pounds heavier than you are.
And he went down when he was in the hospital.
Like he was so skinny that it was so weird to see.
It was, it was insane to see him like a strong big guy like that just dwindled down to nothing.

(01:22:08):
I remember him on the porch on 4th of July, going to the parade, you know, and it was
just after he had the fribrillator and operations and he was like, he was, he was close to 280.
But he was middle 280.
Like you see him right now.
I was like, and he was on the front porch.
He looked like he was a hundred years old.
He looked like he had,
He gets ages himself.

(01:22:30):
Yeah, ages and stuff.
But when he got his heart transplant, he looked like he was young guy.
Yeah.
A bounce right back.
Bounce right back.
And you know, even when he died, he was in his death bed.
He wasn't like, you know, he was an old looking.
It was just the, whatever he had going on inside his body just took him over.
He told me he, he woke up during his heart transplant.
He told me that, that freaks me out.

(01:22:52):
Really?
He woke up, he told me, he told me this.
I know this.
Yup.
He woke up during his heart transplant and it's actually a common thing.
He woke up, he was wide open.
Wow.
Saw it.
I don't like that.
And the nurse goes, his eyes are open.
The doctor goes, he'll pass out.
And he did.
You know, they do brain ser...
I see the video of them doing brain surgery.

(01:23:12):
While you're awake.
While you're awake.
They had this guy, I don't know if it was a man or a woman, I forget, but playing the
violin while they're doing brain surgery.
Absolutely.
Really?
Yeah.
Awake.
But they, you know why they do that?
No.
To make sure that they're...
You're alive?
They're on the right track.
If they poke the wrong thing in the brain.
They want to hear a different song.

(01:23:41):
Play that new song by Bruno Mars.
I don't want to hear that song anymore.
And they just poke the proper spot.
No, you could do that.
They just hit that nerve more.
Yeah.
Isn't that insane?
I mean, the whole medical thing, but he had a, his heart transplant.
He got a 23 year old heart.
Yeah.
Wow.
He was in his early late fifties.
Yeah.
And he had a 23 year old heart in him.

(01:24:01):
So he celebrated two birthdays.
He got his heart transplant.
He got it 69, 50.
He had a heart attack of 59.
And he had, I think it was a couple of years later, four years later.
No, not even that long, three years later, he had a heart transplant.
He know, I know he lasted 10 years with the heart.
11.
11 years.
11 years with the heart.

(01:24:22):
Well, it's the medication that eventually...
Yeah, got him.
Yeah.
That's a funny story because I'm sitting there and the doc there, I'm like, I'm
like, you know, he got all cancer through his liver and his, whatever, he got it all
in body and his organs.
And I'm like, I'm talking to a doctor.
I'm like, yeah, the medication got him.
He goes, no, it didn't.
It wasn't a medicaid.

(01:24:43):
I'm like, yes, I'm like, yes it is.
So my brother works at New York Presbyterian now.
He works in the transplant unit and he goes, the, the, the transplants are what's successful.
They go very well.
He goes, everything that they do is very successful.
It is the medication that's what takes everybody down because you have to take a medication
for the surgery that you got.

(01:25:04):
Now you have to take a medication for the, for the liver problems that you're going
to have with the medication that you got from the surgery.
And then it just keeps going down the line and down the line.
And eventually all that stuff, that's what starts the deterioration.
And on top of that, throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills.
It's like, what's the point?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now the only thing that was good about, between carpentry and plumb, no, between,

(01:25:28):
during carpentry, I was trying to do this business and sell insurance, alewins.
And I did good in it.
And I did very well as far as, you know, selling stuff and hiring people.
And I won a lot of trips.
I got one trips to San Diego, San Francisco.
I went trips to, uh,
What for like sale, like being like the top salesman or something?
Top salesman.

(01:25:48):
So I won that.
And, um, I was able, I never went on those trips.
I went on maybe one.
I went to one of Bokeh Raton.
So I sent grandma and grandpa to, uh, uh, San Francisco.
I sent them to Bahamas.
I sent them to Bokeh Raton.
You know, so those are vacations they would have never had.
And these vacations weren't like, you know, no, they were top, top hotels, Bokeh Raton

(01:26:09):
Beach Club hotel.
They went to, they went to the one in San Francisco.
Uh, it's really cool.
Yeah.
It was top of the line.
They were there for seven days.
So, so much.
So dad was so nervous about that.
They'd find out that he wasn't the guy who did the trip.
So he wore my name tag.
I'm not like, I'm like that.
I don't care.
So he wore my name tag and it was Paul, you know, so he's on the trolley one day and there's

(01:26:33):
a bunch of people from the company and he's sitting there.
He's like with mom and they're going up down a trolley.
One guy from the company is like, Hey, Paul, how you doing?
He goes, where are you from?
And my dad's like, look at him like, no, I'm not Paul.
I'm Richard.
He goes, Oh, who's Paul?
He goes, Oh no, no, I am Paul.
I'm not even going to play the character correctly.
Can't even remember.
Well, when he told me that story, I got dead.

(01:26:58):
You didn't have to worry about that stuff.
They don't care.
No, he just say, my son, he was a vice president with the company and he did that.
But I did that for a three year stint during the trance, during when I was doing carpentry.
And then after that, I just, you know, that's when I went over to plumbing.
I'm surprised he was so concerned with that because everywhere else in his life, he just,
he just didn't care.

(01:27:20):
He would say, he would talk to anybody, bust anybody's chops.
I told you this story the other day we went to the diner.
The jokes that he used to tell.
He used to make this stupid joke every time we went out to eat.
Skin.
So stupid.
Oh, what happened to your face?
And the person goes, what do you mean?
He's like, well, there's skin all over it.
And it's just, and my, and grandma would just cringe every time.

(01:27:40):
But he asked this one waitress that she goes, he goes, what happened to your face?
She goes, well, actually, years ago, I had gotten into a really bad accident and he was
mortified.
Yeah.
And he never did it again.
He never said it again.
And my grandmother was probably so pleased because he finally got his comeuppance.
But every time, like, she probably paid, paid that the waitress.

(01:28:01):
Listen, I'm going to tell you something.
What my grandparents have gone through and the fact that they stuck together.
And then later in life, how they just, they would old school, always go places together.
Like if she was going to the grocery store, he'd be like, all right, I'm coming.
He'll be right there.
Like it's just, it's unbelievable what they went through at the beginning of the, in

(01:28:24):
the middle of their marriage to wind up like that.
Yeah.
But that's old school.
That's like, that's all they had.
Like, like our vacations weren't any vacations going, like they would pile seven kids plus
luggage and any animal we had, we would drive out to Colorado, not knowing where we're going.
And then my mom wouldn't either call someone that she knew out there.
She went to high school with.
Yeah.

(01:28:45):
And then they bombard their house with seven kids.
Running like rug.
I thought it was just you and your husband.
Like, no, it's all seven.
Yeah.
It's nine of us.
I heard seven.
And then we went to Texas and we did that.
And, but you know, back then people would take you in your home.
Yeah.
You know, today like, well, I got things.
Yeah, exactly.
Back then they could make a phone call and then people would hang out with you.

(01:29:07):
You know, today, people wouldn't even, you know, and no, I can't, I can't do it.
Yeah.
Do you remember on the first, on the first episode we did, I told the story about the
vehicles.
Do you remember that?
Yeah.
I remember that.
And I remember my bicycle.
We all got, we all came downstairs and I was like, I can't believe we all got bikes,
you know, and I think Peter and I were out already on the road that morning, Christmas
time, riding around.

(01:29:28):
I remember I went around to a block and my buddy Joe Bava lived there with my best friend,
Sill is my best friend today.
He goes, oh, it's cool.
You guys got bikes.
I'm like, yeah.
So there was a thing back then we called ghost riding.
So you would get on a bike and all of a sudden you jump off it and see how far the bike
would go.
So I had a brand new bike and all of a sudden he goes, oh, let me try.

(01:29:48):
It's was flying down the road, jumps off the bike and lets the bike go.
I'm like, what are you doing?
That's the new one brand new bike.
Things like, bump, bump, like end over and hits the bent the handlebars.
I'm like sitting.
I hate you.
Yeah.
I can't remember.
I can't imagine wheeling that bike home.
Oh, and you know, actually grandpa fixed it.

(01:30:10):
He's like, he took one of his pipe wrenches out and bent it back up and it was like, all
right, are you freaking kidding?
I spent 48 hours trying to get this thing done.
I haven't slept in three days.
You want to know why I got a heart attack?
Because of all of you.
All right.
That's what my father always says.
He goes, do you understand if it wasn't for all of you?

(01:30:30):
Okay.
I would live like a king.
I would have none of you.
I would have so much money.
I would live in a one bedroom apartment with a chair and a TV.
That's an every dude would do.
It's like, I live like nine.
We talk about that all the time.
Like guys will be happy with that.
Yeah.
They're happy with nothing.
As long as I have a roof over my head, somewhere to sit and maybe something to watch.

(01:30:53):
I have way too big of a house for me.
It's like, I need to just be like, I can sit in one room and just like.
Women don't understand how we could be happy with so little.
Yeah.
Like why, what is every guy like a basement?
Well, because that's it.
That's where we go.
Because we're away from you.
Exactly.
It's cool.
So you have, how old is Nikki now?

(01:31:13):
11?
Nikki is 12.
Yeah.
When's he coming to work with us?
He's going to be 16 on Sunday.
He's going to be, he's going to be 16 years old.
16.
Abby is, Abby's going to be 18 in August.
So what are the odds?
Because we're just moving down the line.
Grandpa, you, me, what are the odds that Nikki would show any interest in this?
Well, listen, how long did it take you to?

(01:31:36):
I never wanted to.
What exactly happened?
Hold on, hold on, I got to bring this up because yesterday when we stopped by the house to
drop some stuff off, what did you say?
What did you say?
You was helping you out with something on your truck and you go, are you guys sure
that you want him to come out with you?
What was it?
What was it that he was doing with you?
Oh, he's lifting off the rack because we have to rack up when we go on a vacation so
I can put a tulle on top.

(01:31:57):
It's a simple thing.
I'm like, Nikki, just lift up and step back.
And meanwhile he's getting wrapped around his thing.
I'm like, I don't think you want him to work.
I'm okay with that.
I'm okay.
He's a good, he would learn quick.
The fact that when he has his parents telling him, kids are lazy, but when he's working
for somebody, he would learn how to do it.

(01:32:19):
I mean, I had grandpa, like I said, grandpa used to take me, Mike, David.
He used to take us out, usually when we hit around 10, 11, 12 years old.
And I remember, I didn't mind going out with him.
First of all, he always bought us lunch.
Every time he would buy us lunch and then buy us something on the way home.
But I used to say, I will never, ever do that.

(01:32:41):
I'll go back to that one story.
And then, and then...
What was that love story with your brother?
The love story with your brother that you tell me all the time when he took your brother
out to lunch?
Did he take my brother out?
Did he get a hot dogs in mood 46?
No, he goes, listen to this.
This is so funny.
He comes back.
First of all, he takes my brother out and he goes, let's go get lunch.

(01:33:02):
He gave it a little bit of context because your brother, your big guy.
The courts are big.
Yeah, but this was, my brother was 10.
He was still, he was a beefy 10 year old.
They're big and I'm not saying fat, they're just big boys.
I don't have that problem.
He was a beefy 10 year old.
And my dad, I mean, my brother...
Football players.
Just like football players.
And his, Phil's big.
What are you, 6'3?

(01:33:23):
6'2, 6'3.
6'2, 6'3.
Your brother...
I'm not gonna tell you my weight.
Encapsulates you.
All right?
He's much bigger than you.
Phil's the doorway.
Well, he was, my brother was husky and he takes him out.
He brings him to lunch with my brother and he's like, what do you want for lunch?
And my brother's like, I want Taco Bell.
I was like, all right, I'll take you to Taco Bell, but I want White Castle.
My brother's like, no, I want, I want Taco Bell.

(01:33:43):
So they walk up to White Castle.
My brother's like, can I get a number two and a number seven?
My grandpa's like, all right, fine.
He worked hard today.
It's like I didn't make that much money yet.
We're still charging only $45 for flappers.
What are you doing?
So he takes the Taco Bell.
My brother's eating it in the truck.
Because we never, we never went, we never got fast food when we were growing up.

(01:34:05):
So and every time we came down here, Grandma and Grandpa would always have cold cuts in
the fridge and they would take us out to eat.
Ham and Swiss cheese.
Yup.
So my grandpa's like, well, I'm going to go get White Castle.
You ever had White Castle?
My brother's like, no.
So he goes and gets White Castle.
My brother has scarfed down the Taco Bell and my grandpa and grandpa goes through the

(01:34:25):
drive through.
He gets himself White Castle.
He's like, you want to try one?
My brother's like, sure.
He takes a bite.
He's like, oh, those are good.
Can I get a sack of 10?
Sack of 10?
Sack of 10?
Yeah.
And he ate it.
He's 10 years old.
Growing up, it was an anomaly watching this kid growing up.
Like he could pack it away and now he's just a monster.

(01:34:48):
Like six, what, six, four, six, five?
So that is six, six.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's just a big, big guy.
Yeah.
At least you guys grew up, you know, we had Grandpa.
We had nothing.
And then we get our cabinet to be full with the biggest, or the biggest surprise cereal
we have was Cheerios.
And it wasn't Cheerios that, like today's Cheerios, it was the Off-Brand Cheerios.

(01:35:09):
And then it was Off-Brand Puff Rice.
And it wasn't regular milk, it was mixed milk.
So what was it?
What was it?
Mixed milk.
Mixed milk?
Powdered milk?
Powdered milk.
No.
Not going to happen.
So my mom would go down and make the powdered milk.
We had nothing.
Like, like one day, I think my, my mom came home with Lucky Charms.
Before going out of the bag or the box, it was completely.

(01:35:31):
That was, yeah.
It was completely.
I know that.
Well, my mom tells a story when my dad and mom got first married.
She, I guess they lived with grandma and grandpa for like a year or something like that.
And my mom is this country, Ohio, you know, nice country, quiet, like reserved.
And she comes out here and it's just a madhouse.

(01:35:54):
She buys, she cooks, she bakes an apple pie from scratch and she's so proud of it.
She puts it out within 20 minutes.
Everyone comes in, it's gone.
You're like, she comes back to like crumbs and she's heartbroken because she wanted everyone
to sit down and have a nice meal.
And my dad's like, listen, that's never going to happen here.
You have nothing nice here and you.
We were like cages in the park.

(01:36:16):
You should have told her, listen, at least everybody liked it.
It was good.
Yeah.
I mean, exactly.
There was nothing that landed, that was nothing.
Our kitchen cabinets that were empty all the time, except for canned food.
That's why you guys are huge.
You guys are big because you guys just ate whenever it came out.
No, it never happened.
It was never.
Listen, you look at pictures of them.

(01:36:38):
Everyone was, everyone was skinny.
Yeah, we're skinny.
Yeah, we're skinny.
I'm not talking about fat.
I'm talking about big.
And when I say, when I mean big, like, I don't have that.
I'm five foot five on a good day.
All right.
You guys are like, you guys are big.
Yeah.
We're family.
I'm not talking fat.
Yeah.
So Nicky is sitting there and he would talk about, he was helping to rack.
I go, Nicky, listen, why don't you work with, you know, Max and Phillip?

(01:37:01):
And he's like, doing what?
I'm like, plumbing.
What do you think they do?
What do you think our family business is?
Oh, plumbing?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I got football.
I go, yeah.
It goes, wait, wait, do I get paid?
I'm like, yes, you get paid.
Yeah.
Oh, maybe I will.
I mean, I don't care.
I mean, I'll put up with it.

(01:37:21):
Listen, Max has his own jobs.
I got my own jobs.
I'll take Nicky out, throw him on, you know, jobs in just two, two, three days.
That's how we started.
Exactly.
Now he'll do something like that.
Listen, he's four years late.
I mean, me, Michael and David and everyone else, we started, we started, I remember every
time we used to come down to the house and it was after you took over.
When after you took over, every time we came to the house, we knew we would get suckered

(01:37:44):
into like separating or cleaning fittings or something or cleaning out the shed.
You know, take it 10 minutes, four hours later.
Yeah, I know.
And I can't grab on to anything.
It was always something.
But listen, Abby's going to college next year.
So after she graduate, she's going to be a plumber because the jobs are out there.

(01:38:06):
They're all blue collar jobs.
Yeah.
You know, all these kids are especially now, but yeah, even so, nobody still wants to do
it.
We're going to be in for a rude awakening.
Yeah.
Well, listen, the thing as far as employment, that's the hardest thing.
Like, even in my school district, like we, like if somebody shows interest of being a
custodian, I'm like, oh, you're hired.

(01:38:27):
Yeah.
You know, and, but there's a process and then, you know, our business administrators like,
are you really going through these guys?
I'm like, at this point, I'm trying to hire somebody who just wants to work.
Yeah.
You know, so it's not just the plumbing industry.
It's like impossible to find.
Not the electrical, it's every industry, even our industry.
And, you know, and then also you'll get a spur to people who want to work.
You know, so like in our business, I think that hiring is going to be the next big hurdle

(01:38:49):
that we got to do.
Yeah.
You know, you've got the numbers down.
Now we can bring people in to test out and say, okay, this is what you work.
It's tough to find.
Yeah.
There's, there is no, the work ethic has been bred out.
We talked about like when I was in high school, everyone had an after school job.
Oh yeah.
I mean, you got accustomed to working for somebody by the time you were 14, 15 years
old.
But now the kids just aren't working.

(01:39:13):
They're in sports and then it's like I had to order from a local pizza place the other
day and the guy does hire young kids for the phone.
And I'm sitting there talking to this one guy like, this one kid like, how do you, have
you ever had a conversation with somebody before?
How did you get your socks on this morning?
Yeah.
This is your first time you've ever talked to somebody on the phone.
I had ordered, I had ordered a pizza.

(01:39:34):
I ordered it on the lighter side because I like lighter pizza and they sent me a well
done pizza.
So I drove it back.
I called the kid.
I'm like, listen, I didn't order this.
I ordered a well done pizza.
He doesn't say anything.
I just hear him breathing on the other end.
I'm like, hello.
You know, he's like, yeah, I'm here.
I was like, well, what should I do about this?
He's like, and then he doesn't say anything again.

(01:39:55):
I'm like, I'll see you in a few minutes.
I couldn't believe it.
Like, where have that's you again today?
You get the kids who are, you know, are on the phone all the time.
They don't have to relate.
We're up and we just took a vacation up in Block Island and summer.
We'll bring up certain kids that are in the family.
So one of my buddies bought his daughter up with five of her friends.

(01:40:18):
So they're at a table one night, sitting around, five of them, just five of them, not even
talking.
They're on their phone.
Yeah.
Not even talking.
Yeah.
And I walked up and I'm like, you guys going to talk to each other?
Oh, no, no, no, we are.
It's crazy.
It's the same because that's where things are going.
It's like, it's a totally different world.
The phone has, the phone has killed everything for, for the, you know, I think it's done

(01:40:40):
by on purpose.
I was just 100%.
I was reading an article in the, I think it was a post I actually pulled it out.
I was going to send it to you guys, but it says the new depression.
And they were talking about depression like back in the, in the twenties and thirties
when we had a depression, you know, before we went to war, but the new depression is
kids, you know, 45% are committing suicide.

(01:41:02):
They're, they're not, they don't know what to do in life.
They don't, oh yeah, I'll show you the article.
I'll send it to you.
You know, but it's sad.
You know, it's sad that these kids are, they, they, they feel no selfishness.
Not worth because they're watching stupid idiots on this podcast that have no idea.
And they just think all these guys are making millions.
So what they're, they have no talent.

(01:41:22):
There's also a whole bunch of sociopaths that are on Tik Tok now because I see when we talked
about it before too, I see these kids pulling pranks or doing things on Tik Tok.
You guys talk about that.
That is just plain cruel.
And they thrive off likes and the crueler it is, the more likes they get.
And kids want to emulate that.
Cause they get more likes.
I don't know where we're gonna end up.

(01:41:43):
No, it's it's it but I'm hoping that if once because we talked about trying to put forth a scholarship that we can get kids
encouraged into the trades that's fine. Don't worry about it
And I'm hoping that it will kind of it'll kind of just energize the industry and energize
Companies around us to get kids to yeah do manual listen when you come home and you stink and you've done manual labor all day

(01:42:08):
You've accomplished something. There's no question that you've earned your paycheck for that day
I mean how many times you pull off a boiler and also you see the rack and the design you put on the wall
And then you see all the piping. Oh, yeah, and you're like wow, I did all yeah all nice and level
How did you pass by when you're driving and you're like, yeah, I did that I did that house
Yeah, yeah, you know the the whole thing the apprenticeship program or not apprenticeship program

(01:42:31):
But the scholarship thing and I got talked to Riverdale about this is that that's big
I mentioned to a couple people are like that's the best thing you guys should do that, you know because there was only one kid
I think about
125 kids that received the scholarship for to go to trade school one kid
Yeah, you know the other ones were Yale and this and that the other thing I'm like, you know, it just it just crazy

(01:42:53):
I think that's a good idea for our company to do
You know, I think it's a good idea for most companies to do to plug in and get kids energized to get into the trades because
You can't automate us out. Yeah, you can't we're essential workers. Everyone's gonna
Max said he saw some guy an AI doing cheat rock. Well, yeah, that is a crazy video
But he also made a good point like you're not gonna hear a doorbell ring and then the AI is with in like

(01:43:22):
Just to let you know
I saw that they had a robot packing boxes like going back and forth between the assembly line packing the boxes and then dropping it off
Inside of like a crate and then eventually it fell over and it couldn't get back up and I was like, you see yeah dumb
But that was like me at lunchtime today
But listen, I've definitely enjoyed this is a lot of fun. I mean, I love Sharon stories. I appreciate you coming down

(01:43:50):
but I
I stay tuned for the next one you're welcome to like anytime you want to come on
We'll just we'll just be yes and talk about moving over hours
Guys, thanks for listening plumb bums episode four
Stay tuned for more stuff. We got some good stuff coming up. But again, thanks for listening. Have a good one guys. Thanks for having me on. Bye

(01:44:36):
You