The Hidden Dynamics That Make Growing a Podcast Different From Any Other Content Channel | Podcast Listener Psychology - Podcast Marketing Trends Explained: Data-Driven Podcast Growth Strategies

Episode Transcript
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Jeremy (00:01):
One of the things that is baked into podcasting is
there's both entry and exitfriction. So it's really hard to
get somebody to click play on anepisode for the first time.

Justin (00:08):
Mhmm.

Jeremy (00:09):
But there's also this inertia, which is when they are
a regular listener, they justbuild a habit around it and they
keep doing it.

Justin (00:15):
There are baked in advantages to podcasting that
you don't get with othercontent. The initial threshold
to overcome is greater. But oncethey commit, you've got
something special there.

Jeremy (00:28):
As a challenge to us as creators, we have to assume that
people who aren't listening tous right now already have those
top three shows in their feed.And so this is the challenge
that we're up against. Alright.So, Justin, I'm curious if you
were to estimate how manypodcasts are you currently
subscribed to in your app ofchoice? Pocket Casts, I believe?

Justin (00:49):
Yeah. Probably a hundred.

Jeremy (00:51):
A hundred. Okay. And how many of that hundred have you
listened to in the last week?

Justin (00:58):
Maybe seven or eight.

Jeremy (01:01):
Interesting. So I actually did the math on mine. I
looked through and I actuallykeep my subscription list list a
little bit more, cleaned thanyou do. I have 33 shows that I'm
subscribed to right now. 22 Ihave ever listened to.
So there's 11 shows I'msubscribed to. I've never even
listened to a single episode, asingle minute of any of those.
There's kind of that like youbuy the book because you're

(01:22):
like, I want to learn what's inthis book but you can't bring
yourself to read it or it feelstoo daunting or whatever. So
I've got 11 of those. Of the 22that I've listened to, 19 I've
listened to more than oneepisode, which is actually kind
of interesting.
So the shows that I do listen toone episode of, I tend to
actually listen to more. Sothat's that's good. So we got 33
total. 22 I've listened to. 19I've listened to more than one

(01:42):
episode of.
Of those nineteen, sixteen Ilistened to at least 20 episodes
or more. So a lot of, like, youknow, loyalty to that show. Five
shows I've listened to in thelast month, and only two shows
I've listened to in the lastweek of the 33 total shows that
I've subscribed to.

Justin (01:57):
Oh, interesting.

Jeremy (01:58):
So, you know, your listening habits are clearly a
little bit different than mine.But I've been thinking a lot
about this idea of how muchbandwidth the typical person has
to listen to podcasts comparedto other media. And then I did
the numbers here and I was like,I bet this is roughly true for
most people. And your actualratios here are probably quite

(02:19):
similar to mine where you've gotseven or eight shows you
listened to last week, a hundredsubscriptions. And so this is
kinda just got me thinking moreabout, like, the dynamics of
podcasting as a platform andsome of the the constraints that
are unique to podcasting thatdon't exist for other platforms.
Is this something you ever thinkabout?

Justin (02:34):
Yeah. This is so fascinating. And and you you're
bringing it up that way. I Imean, I'm sure some people are
feeling like that's a little,disheartening to hear, like, how
can my show get one of thoseslots? But I like this framing.
Here's the reality. I walk towork every day and walk home.

(02:55):
That's twenty five to thirtyminutes on my way down and
twenty five to thirty minutes myway up. Maybe I'll listen again
if I'm doing the dishes orchores at home. So if a show is
thirty minutes, I can listen totwo or three a day.
If a show is an hour, I canlisten to one to one and a half
a day. And I'm, I think, in theupper tier of consumption. You

(03:17):
know? I'm listening to a lot ofshows.

Jeremy (03:19):
And I think it's interesting to note too before
we get into this that I thinkpeople have very different
consumption habits. So youmentioned that you listen to
maybe two to three episodes aday. I actually do roughly
similar. Now parties, I didn'tcount client shows that I audit
because that's not really mypersonal listening time. But I
am definitely a binger.
And so I will find a show, I'llbecome obsessed with it, and
I'll listen to 10 episodes aweek, but it's only of one show

(03:41):
really. And then I'll get, youknow, tired with that, and then
I'll move on to another one andthey'll kind of go in cycles.
Whereas you, it sounds likeheavier kind of stable of shows.
So Yeah. There are somedifferent kind of listener
behavior patterns here, but Ithink if we can kind of better
understand the platformconstraints, the things that are
baked into the medium ofpodcasting, there's both some
opportunities that I think comewith podcasting that, other

(04:02):
platforms don't have and alsosome severe limitations.
But I think we can understandwhat these are. We can actually
design for them and hopefullyget to that kind of top slot in
our listeners' lives. Mhmm. Sothe the thing we're gonna start
off with the data like we alwaysdo, there's a couple of things
here that I I think are worth,noting. For all the math nerds
out there, we're gonna get into,your favorite part of the

(04:23):
episode here.
In the the 2024 podcastmarketing trends report, the
typical episode from ourrespondents was thirty five
minutes. Mhmm. And so I, ofcourse, then went to wonder, oh,
okay. So how many episodes makeup a day? We've got the twenty
four hour schedule, but I thinkit's actually time to move to
the podcast episode drivenschedule of the day.
And so in a twenty four hourday, that is fourteen hundred

(04:45):
and forty minutes, that equals41 episodes a day. You could fit
41 of those thirty five minuteepisodes. If you listen back to
back to back to back to back, 41episodes a day in sixteen hours,
that's basically your wakingtime. You could fit in 27
episodes. And then if you gotwe've got four hours.
I thought, okay. That's a prettyaggressive podcast listener
here. That's a lot of time spentlistening to podcast. That's six

(05:07):
episodes. Yeah.
And so six episodes even for aheavy listener. I'm curious if
you're thinking about yourengagement on Twitter or TikTok
or YouTube shorts. Like, howmany pieces of content do you
think you engage within atypical day in that time or
less?

Justin (05:21):
I mean, in for all types of content, it's in the
thousands. Probably in a day,I'll bet you I scroll through
hundreds of posts on, socialmedia, like LinkedIn, blue sky,
Instagram, and then you thinkabout Instagram reels. And then
if you get sucked into TikTok orany of those that you I mean,

(05:42):
you can be scrolling andflipping through content for
hours. So there's some types ofcontent. People are consuming a
lot of units.
You know, you have time in yourday for one or two podcast
episodes and maybe one or two TVshows if you're really
dedicating a lot of time tocontent, you know?

Jeremy (06:01):
It's interesting because, you know, we're running
some numbers here and saying,like, okay. How many episodes
could you fit into a day? EdisonResearch, they always put out
the infinite dial report everyyear. And so they actually do
ask podcast listeners how manyepisodes do you listen to on
average per week. And I lookedup the past several years and
it's generally around eight.
Yeah. The typical podcastlistener listens to eight

(06:21):
episodes a week. And so I thinkthe thing that just jumps out to
me here, that's basically likeone show and maybe that means
one creator a day. And so you'rethinking about you can consume
hundreds or thousands of piecesof content from a thousand
different creators you couldkind of engage with in some way
on other platforms. Typicalconsumer maybe only has room in

(06:43):
their life for, like, eightdifferent podcast creators, and
I think that's even a littlebit, maybe, generous.
I think most people are probablyfewer. And so it just makes me
wonder, like, what do we need todo as creators to earn a slot in
that top eight or top five ortop three? So I guess I'm
curious. You already mentionedthat some creators who are
listening to this might be like,oh, that's really demoralizing
or intimidating. What's your anyother kind of, like, initial

(07:05):
impressions as you start tothink about this these kind of
constraints of podcasting andthe physical time limitations?

Justin (07:10):
Yeah. I mean, on one hand, it is overwhelming because
the bar is high. It's like, howcould I, a lowly podcaster, get
into that tier of beingsomeone's, you know, one creator
that they choose for that day.On the flip side, I think people
will see there's advantages tothat. So once you earn that
spot, there are baked inadvantages to podcasting that

(07:34):
you don't get with other formsof content.
So I think people will see bothadvantages, but this is a nice
framing because it shows peoplethis is the game they're
playing.

Jeremy (07:46):
For me personally, I always wanna know, like, if I
wanna see the mountain that I'mclimbing and be like, okay.
That's where I need to get to.Mhmm. And I can decide whether I
wanna undertake that journey ornot. But at least I have clarity
on, like, I know what I'm doing.
I know where I need to go. And Ithink that, you know, with some
of these kind of constraints ofpodcasting and the
opportunities, the more that wecan understand the dynamics
here, the better we can actuallymake intentional decisions about

(08:07):
how we structure our episodes,what our show concept or premise
is, and, like, all of thesedifferent things that we can
then be intentional about how weapproach that and and give
ourselves the the best chance atsuccess. Mhmm. And so we started
off talking about time, which isa big part of this and how much
time people have for podcast.This is kind of based on an
assumption that podcast tend tobe longer form, which is not
universally true.
But there's also it gets intothis bigger conversation of kind

(08:29):
of, like, platform dynamics orplatform constraints. Mhmm. And
so I'm curious, how would youkind of define that concept?
There's constraints, there'splatform dynamics, and there's
also platform psychology or howpeople think about a certain
platform. Like, how would youwalk through this?
Whether it's, like, software orpodcasting or YouTube or an app
or or something like that.

Justin (08:50):
Yeah. I mean, there there's, the platform
constraints are what's baked into this thing you've chosen. So
as an example, TikTok, it'salgorithmically driven. So the
game you're playing there is howdo I grab the attention of the
algorithm? What gets me a spotin the algorithm that's being,

(09:13):
you know, tested on people allover the world.
And then once you get that spot,the disadvantage is most people
don't follow the creator. It's amoment and then it passes and
then that's it. If we go theother way, like thinking about
books, right, like, what are theconstraints of writing and
publishing a book? Well, peoplemaybe will read three or four

(09:37):
books a year if you're lucky.And there's even something
beyond that, which isinteresting, which is, like, a
lot of people buy books butdon't read them.
And is that good or bad orwhatever? And, but what probably
gets books sold is peopleactually recommending it. So
it's everything that's in themedium of choice. And based on
how it's built, what are theadvantages and disadvantages?

(09:59):
What are the strengths andweaknesses?
What are the opportunities andthreats? It's all encompassed in
that.

Jeremy (10:05):
Yeah. And, you know, for each of those, it makes me even
think there's further kind ofplatform constraints and
dynamics here where with TikTok,there is a time limit. Like,
your video can't just be aninfinite amount of time. Twitter
is was famous for the characterlimit. I mean, it still has a
character limit, but it's that'sbecoming a little bit more lax.
But, like, that was one of thethings that actually helped it
stand out. But it creates alimitation where that's, like,

(10:26):
created threads basically wherepeople were trying to get around
this platform constraint anddeveloped a new way of
communicating on the platform.And you look at something like
books then, you know, now we'vegot ebooks and everything like
that. But historically, aplatform constrained to books
are the cost it it takes toprint the book. And so a longer
book is gonna cost more to getprinted.
There's I know a bunch of stuff.I don't know enough about the
book world, but there is acertain size of book that is

(10:49):
optimized for sales. A lot ofpublishers, they don't wanna
have a book that's too short andso they will prompt others to
bloat it because it looks betteron the bookstore shelves. It
takes up more space Yeah. Andcatches more eyes.
And so there's all these kind ofplatform dynamics built in. Some
of them help you and and arebeneficial and present
opportunities and other onespresent challenges. But I think

(11:09):
knowing kind of that system thatyou're operating within and how
to navigate it, what theplatform wants and then there's
this other side of like theplatform psychology which is,
like, the expectations andalmost assumptions that people
bring to a platform. And so wecan think people have a certain
idea of what a podcast is.

Justin (11:26):
This is

Jeremy (11:26):
a big debate in podcasting right now. But they
have a certain kind of set ideaof what they go to a podcast in
general to get and what they goto an email newsletter to get
and what they're gonna get fromYouTube or a book or anything
else. And so I think when weunderstand these, we can start
to kinda play with those alittle bit.

Justin (11:42):
Yeah. In one sense, it's like characteristics of the
platform. Like, there'sconstraints, but there's also
the things that the platformenables that other platforms
might not. And, yeah, I like thepsychology part. Like, when
someone opens up their podcastplayer, what's their kind of
thinking?
What's their process ofdeciding? And we could even go
further back in that. Like,before they open their podcast

(12:04):
player, what are the otheroptions that, you know, they're
like, do I feel like musictoday? It's like, no. No.
No. I'm gonna I want somethingjuicy for this commute to work.
It's like, okay. So now you'relooking for something juicy,
whatever that means. And thenit's like, what do I choose
based on what happens when Iopen up my podcast player?
And I think most creators arenot thinking on that level.

(12:28):
They're just assuming, well,people are coming to my show,
and so I've gotta make, youknow, my intro really solid. But
it's like, no. No. No.
You gotta start even two orthree or four steps back
thinking both about the platformitself and the psychology the
listener is bringing. And thenthink through, like, how are you

(12:49):
going to be a part of that flow?

Jeremy (12:52):
There's a really interesting example that came up
in my Podcast Marketing Academycommunity last week where
somebody was asking about emailservice provider platforms and
was wondering about signing upon Substack. Mhmm. And was
asking, like, you know, what doyou think of what Substack? Is
my business a good fit for this?And it was interesting that
another member basically wrotesome comment along the lines of,

(13:13):
when I think of Substack, Ithink of long form think pieces.
Like that feels like a Substacknewsletter, not so much email
marketing. And Yeah. It clickedfor me. I was like, I I couldn't
quite articulate. I was like,yes.
There is a brand of newsletterthat belongs on Substack that is
different from any other kind ofnewsletter. And Yeah. That there
is a platform psychology thatpeople who read Substacks, I'm

(13:34):
not even a regular Substackreader. I have that association
with the platform and the peoplewho are on it. Yeah.
And so the you can get emailsfrom everywhere and I get
Substack newsletters deliveredin my email client in Gmail or
in Apple Mail or whatever. Iread them right there, but it
still feels different becauseit's from Substack somehow.

Justin (13:51):
Yeah.

Jeremy (13:51):
And so there's this, like, halo of the platform or
the medium that can extend andcauses people to have certain
assumptions that can be, in thiscase, potentially good. But if
you're gonna go against thoseassumptions, it might actually
hurt you because people expectsomething from Substack or a
newsletter on Substack. And ifyou're not delivering that, it
might feel like you're breakingwith the expectations in some
way.

Justin (14:11):
Yeah. Yeah. I just got a email from De La Soul, the old
school hip hop group, and it wassent through Substack. And I was
just like, this doesn't feelright. This isn't, like, the
right spot for this.
But if they'd sent me, you know,an email through Patreon, I
would have been like, oh, yeah.This feels fine.

Jeremy (14:29):
I think the last thing I wanna move on to some of the
specific kind of podcasting. Butthe thing to emphasize here
before we move on is that thesekind of platform dynamics and
platform psychology are notthings we as creators can
influence. They may over timechange as either the platform
changes as a whole Mhmm. Or thata large number of creators shift

(14:51):
the meaning of what a podcastis. And so now as podcast is
going to video and YouTubebecoming more of a thing, there
is a growing base of contentconsumers who has a different
idea of what a podcast is thanwhat it was ten years ago, but
no one creator can actuallyshift that.
And so we exist within thesedynamics, and I think that's
important important thing tokind of keep in mind.

Justin (15:09):
Yeah. I always say you can't change the market. Like,
you think you can influence? No.No.
The market is in motion, andyou're just riding the wave. And
I think podcasters need torecognize this is the kind of
wave we're riding. These are thecharacteristics of it. We can't
affect that. Like, the weatheraffects that.
It's our job to say, how can Ibest ride this particular wave?

Jeremy (15:33):
So when you think about some of the kind of traits,
characteristics that are bakedinto the medium of podcasting,
what are some of the things thatcome to mind for you?

Justin (15:40):
I was gonna bring this up later, but I think I'll bring
it up here because you hadtalked to me earlier about how
it's a platform full of inertia.And I just think about, like,
typically, a podcast consumer ismaking a decision, and then
they're putting their phoneaway, and then their hands and

(16:00):
eyes are busy, typically.

Jeremy (16:02):
Yeah.

Justin (16:03):
So it's like, I get in the car. I have a thirty minute
commute. What am I gonna listento? I'm opening up my podcast
player in that moment. I'mscrolling through what looks
interesting.
I'm choosing. I'm putting thephone down. I'm backing up. I'm
driving. My eyes and my handsare busy.

(16:24):
And it's not like otherplatforms where it's like, oh,
here's one. Here's one. Here'sone. Like, you're just switching
between videos. Podcasting is avery different medium in that
sense, and I think inertia is agood way to describe it.

Jeremy (16:39):
And I think, like, when I was thinking of words, I often
think about friction. But then Irealized, like, inertia is
actually a better word for acouple reasons. Like, I think
friction is always a negativeforce. And so one of the things
I really think about that isbaked into podcasting is there's
both entry and exit friction. Soit's really hard to get somebody
to click play on an episode forthe first time because it is a

(16:59):
big time commitment and becausethey might already have their
three shows they love.
And so they might, you know,like me, subscribe to show as
and never listen to them. It'slike buying that book and you
don't actually listen. So thereis friction getting somebody to
get into it. There's the entryfriction also exists in how do
you promote it. And so if you'repromoting through social media,
people are in one kind ofmindset that is not listen to a
forty five or sixty minute longinterview.

(17:21):
Yeah. They might subscribe now.They might go click over to it,
but they also might not. Theymight just scroll on to the next
post. They might be aware of it.
But so getting people in isreally hard for podcasting, but
also getting people out. And soa lot of times people are
looking to use their shows togrow their businesses or their
email list or something else oreven we all know getting people
to rate and review and subscribeto the show. Mhmm. Like, getting

(17:41):
people to do that is reallyhard, again because their eyes
and hands are busy. And so thoseare kind of the negative
aspects.
That's where I was thinkingabout friction where it's like,
if people are not already inmotion with the show, they're
not already regular listeners.It's hard to get them to do
that. But there's also thisother aspect of inertia, which
is when they are a regularlistener, they just build a
habit around it and they keepdoing it. And it often comes to

(18:03):
own a certain spot in their dayor a certain time period where
you're in the car. You've madethat one decision, and now it's
too hard for them to, like, goand find something else if
they're not into it after thefirst five or ten minutes.
Yeah. And so it can be bothpositive and challenging, and I
think there's ways to kinda playwith that.

Justin (18:18):
Yeah. And, really, like, most people opening up their
podcast player, in their queue,if they're following a bunch of
shows, maybe there's 20 episodesthere. And you might think, wow,
like that sucks. Yep. Because Ihave to be one of 20.
But on the other hand, it's likeone of 20 is pretty good odds in
a long form content universe.TikTok is like your thing has to

(18:44):
stand out amongst a thousandthings. Like and they're not not
gonna be spending that much timewith you. Whereas here, yes, the
initial friction or thatthreshold to overcome is
greater. But once they commit,now you've got their attention.
You've got that listening timefor a long time. And that is

(19:08):
just such a great gift andopportunity. And it's really, I
think, what makes podcasting sospecial is, man, it's hard to
get a listener. But if you getthe listener and if they're
engaged, you've got somethingspecial there, which makes it
more likely to for them to builda habit and for you to become

(19:30):
one of their, you know, eightcreators, podcast creators that
they, listen to in a given week.That is just an incredible
opportunity.
And statistically, those oddsare actually pretty good.
There's maybe, I don't know, a50,000, two hundred thousand
podcasts that are actively stillreleasing new episodes in the

(19:51):
last thirty days or something.That's not that many. The
competitive pool is actuallypretty small compared to most
media types, YouTube channelsYeah. Books, TV shows.
We're actually in a fairly smallpond, and there's some
advantages to that.

Jeremy (20:11):
I'm talking about this idea of getting people's kind of
this lock in idea where it'slike once you find a show that
you like, you spend a lot oftime with it. There's a decent
amount of data on, like, thepodcast advertising side of
things, which is that podcastlisteners are it's a highly
valuable audience to reach.Mhmm. This is also true if you
own a business. I don't havenearly enough data and it's so
hard to find because it's allanecdotal.

(20:32):
But I've seen a lot of peopleshare figures that are
basically, their podcastlisteners convert to their
products or services anywherefrom two to eight times the rate
of their just social or email,subscribers. And so I think,
like, that's a reallyinteresting thing too where,
yeah, maybe you have a waysmaller podcast audience, but
the value is actually much more.And so I think that this is
something that is baked into thedynamic of podcasting as well is

(20:54):
that it's actually quite a hightrust medium. If we think about
how much trust do you put in aTikTok content creator who you
might have watched a hundred or500 or a thousand TikToks of
Mhmm. I don't think there's thatmuch trust in that person.
Mhmm. But I think if you listento 50 or a hundred episodes of a
podcast host, even, like, let'ssay, a thirty to forty five

(21:16):
minute episode, not, like, supersuper long, I think you trust
that person way more than acreator on creator on another
platform.

Justin (21:22):
Yeah. And you see this show up in the way that people
recommend different formats. SoI might repost an Instagram
photo to my story because it's acool photo. But Mhmm. I'm not
saying, hey.
You should go and follow thiscreator or this person. I'm just
like, look at this little pieceof content. What a cool piece of

(21:44):
content. Whereas when peoplerecommend podcasts, they're
usually recommending the host orthe creator. They're saying,
Hey, I really like, respect thisperson.
Like they, they just have a lotof insights and wisdom. So
they're recommending the host orthe creator more times than not.

(22:05):
It's a very different modalitythere.

Jeremy (22:09):
And I hope that this becomes more of a thing. One
thing we've talked about in ourpodcast a lot is the idea of
having a kind of compelling showconcept.

Justin (22:16):
Mhmm.

Jeremy (22:16):
I think if you have a great concept, that becomes much
more recommendable. Now you canrecommend both the host and the
concept and in any individualepisode. But I think a lot of
times, like, there is this,like, feeling like, oh, I know
so and so needs to hear fromthis person or, like, I I want
to recommend this person'sperspective to a certain person.

Justin (22:34):
As a case study, this show that I just started,
there's some people that aregonna come to the show because
Brian, who's the cohost, andmyself have built an audience,
But we've married that with thisconcept, which is we're bringing
two people on every episode thatwe purposefully are hoping

(22:54):
disagree with our takes, thatwe're going to be teasing apart
the nuance on any topic that wecover. And so that's kind of
this idea of marrying, like,here's the host, here's the
creator, and you might be comingfor the creator. Yeah. But then
let's marry that with a conceptthat is compelling. Like, it
just creates this kind ofmomentum, this pull to the show.

Jeremy (23:18):
A couple other of the kind of, baked in platform
dynamics of podcasting, we wouldbe kind of remiss not to mention
RSS. We don't need to go intowhy that necessarily matters.
There's lots of places to findthat outside of this show, but
that is a inherent kind of liketechnically baked in aspect of
podcasting that is shifting asSpotify is trying to do things
their way. YouTube's trying tokind of bring things in in house

(23:40):
there, but this is still a corepart of podcasting that has all
kinds of interesting knock oneffects where Yeah. You know,
you can transfer your show fromone hosting platform to another
and retain ownership of yourepisodes.
You can kind of redirect thatpretty easily. You cannot be
shut down on any one platform.Like, if you're on YouTube or
your Instagram account getsblocked and then good luck
finding your way throughFacebook support. Mhmm. That's,

(24:02):
not a fun thing from what I'veheard from anybody who's gone
through that.
Mhmm. And so RSS is certainlykind of one of the platform
dynamics. And then actuallygoing back to what we were
talking about with the, like,show concept side of things. One
of the things that I feelstrongly about with podcasting
as it currently stands is thatthere is this dynamic that the
show actually has a lot ofemphasis and I don't think
people think about that. I thinkhistorically, people thought

(24:24):
about podcasting as a convenientway to distribute content like a
blog post kind of.
And this is if we go back ten,fifteen years. But I think as
podcasting has evolved, peopleactually need to be thinking
about what is the premise of theshow, what is the concept at the
show level. Mhmm. And that thatis a huge part of what gets
somebody to subscribe to a showand click play. And so again,
you can have like a host be partof the magnetism or the thing

(24:47):
that attracts you to a show.
You could certainly haveepisodes, but if you have those
two things, plus you have ainteresting show concept that
people are like, woah, that's aninteresting way to explore this
topic. Mhmm. Then you've got alla lot of magnetism pulling
people in. And so I think that'ssomething Yeah. Not enough
people are approaching theirshows thinking about, like, what
is the concept here?
What is the premise beyond justa collection of episodes on a

(25:08):
certain topic?

Justin (25:09):
Yeah. And, again, if you're thinking about this
exchange, instead of spendingmoney, a listener is really
spending a lot of time. And sothe bar has to be higher because
they are going to push play andstart driving for thirty
minutes. This is a commitment.And if you let them down, if

(25:29):
they're, like, halfway throughthat commute and they're like,
ah, like, I wish I hadn't chosenthis episode and but I'm locked
in.
Like, I can't really fiddle withmy phone and, like, figure out
something else. Then, you know,you've lost their trust. So
Yeah. The bar has to be higherfor podcasts because of the way
people are engaging with it.

Jeremy (25:48):
And I think that actually maybe brings us to this
next kind of point here. Wetalked about some of the baked
in platform dynamics, but thenthere's also the kind of
platform psychology. And whatdoes a, in this case, listener
expect of podcasting? And I'mcurious, like, what if you think
about the medium as a whole,you've got all these content
platforms that you engage with.Like, what do you go to
podcasting for or expect whenyou hear that a creator that you

(26:11):
already know and follow islaunching a podcast?
Like, how is that different fromthem launching a YouTube channel
or, you know, a TikTok orsomething like that?

Justin (26:17):
Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. Really, it feels like,
to me, I'm about to considerentering into a more serious
relationship with that person.So if I've been, like, casually
seeing them post clips or, youknow, maybe I read their

(26:38):
newsletter every once in awhile, if they're asking me to
follow their podcast feed, it'slike, woah. Like, this is this
is getting serious.
Like, I'm this could be a longterm relationship here. Mhmm.
And the podcast creators thathave been significant to me,

(26:58):
those were long termrelationships, parasocial
relationships that I've had for,in some cases, ten, fifteen
years.

Jeremy (27:08):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I don't know that I
had considered this before untilyou said that, but there are
many forms of content that Iwill watch a one off video and
that's fine. I will read oneblog post from somebody and blog
posts are very shareable. Theyget LinkedIn newsletters.
They get linked on social,whatever. It's easy to click in
and click out. But I feel likeif I'm approaching a podcast, I
want to sign up for a journey.And I think I want it to be a

(27:30):
companion long term. That'sactually something I'm looking
for.

Justin (27:33):
Yeah.

Jeremy (27:33):
I'm not looking for a one off. And so there is
something baked into theexpectations of a podcast that
you're kind of along for abigger thing than just one
episode here or there. Yeah.

Justin (27:42):
There. Yeah. I love the way you just put that. I'm,
like, I don't think that's theonly job to be done or the only
kinda mode, but it is a big one.I'm signing up for a journey,
like, to go on a journey withthis person.
There's a type of show that justfits perfectly. And, again, the
bar is higher for that.

Jeremy (28:04):
Well and, you know, the other thing that is different
with podcasting from most otherplatforms is, again, it comes
back to this book idea where youwill buy a book but not read it
immediately, but you know youwill read it one day. And I
think podcasting is like thattoo where I have many shows
where I feel like I am going tolisten to this and I know I'm
gonna love it. It actually alsomakes me think of a long form
like, television series where Iwatched season one of Breaking

(28:25):
Bad back in the day. And I Ibinged it all in, like, three
days. And I was like, woah.
That was intense. I can't dothis to myself again. I gotta
just, like, slow down a littlebit, put the brakes on. I'll
come back to this. And so I ambought in.
I know how good the show is andeven better that I know that it
pays off in the end because of,you know, you just live in
culture and you know that. Andso for me, I'm like, I'm saving
that for some time in thefuture. I get to look forward to

(28:48):
that for a long time. I'm notready to go on that journey yet,
but I know it's there when Ineed it. And so I think
podcasting is unique in that waytoo, where I can't think of a
single newsletter that I've eversaid, you know, I'm going to
bookmark this and I'm going tocome back to that in the future.
No, if I want the information,I'll sign up now or YouTube
videos. It's like I have a watchlater cute, but it's not like

(29:08):
whole channels that I'm justlike, I'm just gonna subscribe
and tuck this away over here forwhen the time's right.

Justin (29:13):
Yeah.

Jeremy (29:13):
It's much more impulsive, I think. Whereas
podcasting, I think, as a wholeis much more measured almost in
the way people make decisionsabout shows.

Justin (29:20):
Yeah. And you just mentioned whole channel. I think
that's key too. It's likepodcasting. You're really
committing to getting this dripevery time.
It's like a new thing is cominginto your queue every week. And
if you're gonna be a committedlistener, you're signing up for

(29:40):
the channel experience, like thewhole thing. Whereas some of
these other formats, like aYouTube channel, it's like, I
can just go in, see how to fixmy engine, and then get out. You
know? It's like, I'm not gonnasign up for that guy's engine
repair channel.
Some YouTube channels have thischaracteristic, but this is
definitely a thing inpodcasting. It's like you're

(30:01):
signing up for the whole thing.

Jeremy (30:03):
There's two things that are interesting about YouTube
that you mentioned there. So onethat I think of is Casey
Neistat. He his channel so hehe's a different generation of
YouTuber than what is more kindof prominent now. His channel
probably wouldn't, like, gaintraction today. Mhmm.
But, obviously, he kinda, like,revolutionized the daily vlog.
That is a channel where you doyou would not there's no point
to watch one Casey Neistatvideo. Mhmm. Like, the content I

(30:26):
was listening to anotherpodcast. I think it was on the
The Nathan Barry Show, and theywere talking about Casey Neistat
at how great a filmmaker he is.
And basically whoever the guestwas, was saying like the content
of a Casey Neistat video isshockingly banal. Like it's like
him going to the airport andwhatever, but he's such a good
storyteller with the camera thatit pulls you in. But it's like
you are going on a journey withthat channel to get to know

(30:48):
Casey in some sense and feel allalong for the ride. But with
podcasting, I think that'salmost more of the norm of you
expect that a little bit. It'smuch more personal, I think.
And, I feel like there's almostthis more immersive element too
that makes me think a little bitof books versus movies. Again,
we keep going back to bookswhere you build that world in
your head because there's notthe visual and there's not the
voices. Whereas with podcasting,I can't help but think that

(31:11):
there's something going on inyour brain as well where you are
actually being required to do abit of work. Mhmm. And that
you're hearing thisconversation, but your brain is
filling in some gaps andimagining some of the visuals or
kind of wandering a little bit,and it's not just in autopilot
mode.
And I think that that'ssomething else that's really
interesting with podcasting. Andthen the other thing that you
mentioned with YouTube, youmentioned, like, how to fix my

(31:31):
engine. I think I, as a consumerof podcasts, actually do not
think of podcasting as aactionable medium. Mhmm. A
actionable medium.
Mhmm.

Justin (31:37):
I

Jeremy (31:38):
think of it as as the place to go for a more nuanced
in-depth kind of explorations oftopics. And I think that this is
something that's at odds withhow a lot of people approach
shows because we roast and Iaudit so many shows that in
their description say, like,highly actionable strategies.
Mhmm.

Justin (31:54):
And I

Jeremy (31:54):
think some shows can pull that off, but I think that
other platforms are always gonnabe way more actionable, way more
shorter form than podcasting isgonna be. And so I don't always
know that leaning to actionableis the best strategy in
podcasting.

Justin (32:07):
Yeah. This is making me think of other formats. So if if
we identified one, which is I'msigning up to go on a journey
with this creator, there there'sthe flip side of that too, which
is I, the listener, am on ajourney, and I'm signing up for
you to be my companion as I gothrough this journey. I think
this applies to maybe Jay Klausand his creator science show. So

(32:29):
I am somebody who wants to be afull time creator, and I need a
companion on this journey whowill probably give me some
actionable content, but it's ata different level.
It it's very much like Jay isthe friend I go and meet at the
coffee shop, and we talk aboutbusiness and talk about my

(32:50):
journey, and he recommends a fewthings. That's the kind of
relationship I see there. Jaycould have another show, and he
does have this subcontext, whichis some people might be signing
up just to hear about hisjourney. Mhmm. I'm just, like,
interested in hearing how hisstory arc, you know, goes.
So I think that's Yep. Theretoo. And then there's other
formats as well, like, TylerCowen, Conversations with Tyler.

(33:15):
I'm subscribed to his feed. I'mnot gonna listen to every
episode, but every once in awhile, something big happens or
there's a person that I reallywanna hear him.
I'm basically signing up to hearsomebody confront people or ask
really good questions around atopic that are, you know,
incredibly, like, sharp. And Ijust, like, I need to hear that

(33:39):
sharp, more confrontationalquestioning. Like, no formality
is, like, let's just hear thedeep stuff. So, yeah, there's a
few of these formats that areinteresting in podcasting that
are different certainly thanYouTube or TikTok.

Jeremy (33:54):
So there's two more things that I think are really
interesting that are worthpointing out in terms of the
listener psychology withpodcasting. The first is this
idea of, like, podcasting as aplatform that can help with your
sales. A lot of people launchshows to support their
businesses. I think a lot ofpeople that that we both talk
to, certainly the majority ofthe people that I work with. And
I think a lot of people strugglewith this in that they're like,

(34:16):
I get great feedback fromlisteners.
Like, people love the show, butI can't get anybody to book a
sales call or to sign up to mycourse or whatever it might be.
And I think that this is adistinction in platform
psychology between podcastingand email specifically, where I
know I have signed up toprobably dozens of mailing
lists. I have like clothingcompanies and tech companies
and, online course creators andthings like that where I'm like,

(34:37):
I have no intention of buyingnow. I don't actually wanna read
your regular email, but I dowanna keep getting it so that I
can remind myself that, like,when the time is right, I'm
gonna buy that thing. A salecomes around Mhmm.
Or the timing is right in mylife to sign up for that course
or whatever it is, and I wannabe reminded to get it. And so
I've actually subscribed to besold to where I think all of us
have those things in in emailwhere we actually choose to be

(34:58):
marketed to actively. But withpodcasting, I don't think
anybody goes to a podcastexpecting to buy something from
it. And so I think that this issomething, if you are a business
owner, it's worth kind ofkeeping this in mind that, like,
podcasting is great for somethings. Again, there's that
friction in getting people totake action.
Part of that is the platformpsychology. Part of that is just
the, platform constraints wherepeople are hands are busy, eyes

(35:18):
are busy. They can't just goclick a sales page link. So
that's the the kind of one thingthat I I think is worth
considering here as we'retalking about this platform
psychology. And then the lastthing here when it comes to the
listener psychology and platformpsychology of podcasting is I
think that there's an assumptionon behalf of listeners,
certainly on my part, that if Igo looking for a podcast, I'm

(35:38):
actually expecting to spend sometime.
And so you do see a lot ofpodcasts that are, you know,
five minutes, ten minutes,fifteen minutes. They're shorter
form podcasts. And I think thatit certainly makes it easier to
overcome that friction and getin. But I think there's also, on
a lot of people's part, like,they are coming to go deep on a
topic, and so a lot of peopleare always asking how long
should my episodes be, andthey're kind of worried about

(35:59):
going too long. And, yeah, Ithink the longer your show, the
higher the bar it is to getsomebody into the show in the
first place.
But I think depending on therest of your concept and how
you're framing the topic, thereare people who are actually
coming to the medium to get adeeper take on a topic than, you
know, they might get elsewhere.And so that's something that you
can actually kind of align withif that feels, you know, right

(36:19):
for your your content.

Justin (36:21):
Yeah. I totally agree. So understanding all these kind
of baked in dynamics, how do wecreate better shows that people
want to follow? How do we getinto that, you know, being one
of the eight creators thatthey're following in a given
week? What can we do about that?

Jeremy (36:37):
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing is just actually
getting your mindset aroundthat. And so, you know, you
mentioned the queue that youmaybe have 20 episodes in. I
just looked up mine. I've got ahundred and nine episodes in my
to listen queue.
Mhmm. And I think theinteresting thing here, both at
the show level and the episodelevel, is I will never listen
probably to most of thoseepisodes. I will probably listen
to maybe the top five in thequeue. And it's always like

(36:59):
something new is coming out thatjumps to the top, bumps
everything down.

Justin (37:01):
Mhmm.

Jeremy (37:01):
And so I think that that's something that is worth
thinking about is that if you'rein that position in at the top
of the queue or if you're in thethe top of somebody's feed, you
have a built in advantage thatyou're probably gonna keep that.
But it's also looking at, like,as a challenge to us as
creators, we have to assume thatpeople who aren't listening to
us right now already have thosetop three, those top eight shows

(37:21):
in their feed. And so what arewe gonna do? It actually needs
to be pretty sharp and specific,our pitch to people, like, what
they're gonna get that is notalready being delivered to them
by other shows, either on ourtopic or on all the other topics
that they listen to. And so Ithink the first thing is just,
like, getting in our heads, thisis the challenge that we're up
against.

Justin (37:39):
And to be like, here's a good example practically for me.
There's a few shows that they'remostly co hosted shows. And
Mhmm. If that episode pops intothe top of my queue, I'm
abandoning whatever else I'mlistening to. I'm listening to
that show.
There's some topical episodeslike Pod News, Weekly is a show

(38:00):
I subscribe to. I I don't listento every episode, but if the
headline for the show, the titlefor the episode is something I'm
like, oh, I gotta listen to thatright now. That will push
everything else down. That goesto the top of the list. So
there's different mindsets.
And what you're just trying todo is so for Pod News, for
example, you're basically justtrying to deliver the headlines

(38:24):
and then understanding that someof those headlines are gonna
grab certain listeners more thanothers, and that's the job to be
done. Deliver the headlines, andif it resonates, people will
listen. Maybe a co hosted showwhere a lot of it is about, you
know, your relationship with thehost, and then just like, this
is I gotta spend time with thesetwo people. That's a very

(38:45):
different, modality, and thatcan also work. You can construct
your show along those lines.
So show construction, and youtalk about this a lot, you know,
the concept of the show, thehosts themselves, what is going
to get keep people coming back?And maybe they're not coming
back for every episode. Youknow, Professor g, Scott

(39:05):
Galloway, he publishes four orfive episodes a week. Most
people aren't listening to everyepisode. Right?
But he wants the average episodeto get x number of downloads.
That's his target. And you canconstruct shows assuming that
people won't listen every time.

Jeremy (39:22):
The thing that comes to mind for me when designing for
kind of the existing dynamics inpodcasting and on the platform
is understanding, like, wherethe challenges are, what the
hard things are aboutpodcasting, and then really
putting a lot of attention intothose things. And so the reason
that we have this other show,Roast My Podcast, is because so
much of the decision to listento a show is based on this very

(39:44):
limited amount of data thatsomebody gets. It's the title of
the show, it's the cover art.Those are really the first kind
of filters. And then you get,okay, the description and the
episode titles.
Like almost none of the decisionto listen has anything to do
with any content, no recordedaudio. It's all this visual
stuff that people can scan andconsume in a few seconds. Mhmm.
And so I think understandingthat this is the real challenge

(40:05):
to getting people into the showand that once we get them in,
actually, we have a good chanceof keeping them if the content
is good. Like, I wanna focus aton of of time and effort and
energy and even money on gettinga great piece of cover art, on
really making sure my title iscommunicating the promise or the
job to be done of the show,getting the description to be
able to hook the people in, kindof communicate the relevance of

(40:26):
the show to them, and thenthinking about those episode
titles.
I'm the same way where there'ssome shows, I've got my queue,
but if an episode title, I'mlike, oh, that is too specific.
It's too relevant. It's timely.It's juicy. It's whatever it is.
That one is now jumping to thetop of my queue and bumping
everything else down.

Justin (40:42):
And so

Jeremy (40:42):
I think that, you know, just because you have
subscribers, we still have towin people over each and every
week. And part of that's withthe episode titles, which is, of
course, based on our, like,topic selection and guest
selection, things like that. Howwe're framing the episodes in
the first place. But what arethe baked in challenges with
podcasting? And let me dedicatea lot of my focus towards
overcoming those things.
Another thing on the contentside of the actual content

(41:04):
within the episodes that comesto mind for me is thinking about
the habitual nature of podcast.I think that almost more than
any other medium, podcasting isvery habit driven where you will
have a show that you listen toevery Tuesday as soon as it
comes out. And you mightactually, you know, plan your
day around that to some extent.You know, on Tuesday morning in
my walk into work, maybe I takethe long way to work so that I
can fit in this hour longpodcast versus the thirty minute

(41:27):
direct walk there. But becauseit's Tuesday, I'm gonna enjoy
Money for Couples with RamitSethi has been one of mine where
I will build time into my day toextend my walk so that I can
listen to that show because ithas that place in my week.
And I think the way to getthere, to get to this habit
building, kind of experiencewith the show is it actually has
to be repetitive in some way.There has to be a consistent

(41:48):
structure. The length has to begenerally similar. And there
also has to be a very consistentexperience that a listener gets.
And so they need to havebasically a % confidence every
time they click play that theyalready know what they're going
to get emotionally.
They might not know whatinformation they're going to
get. They might not know whatthe story is going to be. They
might not know what jokes aregoing to make them laugh, but
they know that experience, thatlistening experience. And it's

(42:09):
as something that is really,really consistent. And I think
that this is something where,again, it goes back to this idea
where a lot of times podcastsfeel like a repository of a
bunch of different types ofepisodes that are just hard to
associate in your mind.
What do I go to this show toget? And so I think thinking
about consistency, not only inrelease schedule, but also in
listener experience is a hugekind of part of building that

(42:31):
habit.

Justin (42:32):
Yeah. And I wanna zoom in. You just put it so
perfectly. What am I gonna getfrom this show emotionally? Like
Mhmm.
So people have emotionalassociations with shows. Another
thing I wanted my new show tofeel like was that feeling when
you're at a conference and you,like, go to a bar with a bunch
of people, and you're justshooting the shit. You're just,

(42:55):
like, talking about the reallife trying to do this thing.
And that's the feeling I wantedpeople to have when they listen.
Like, having that

Jeremy (43:05):
Mhmm.

Justin (43:05):
That emotional resonance. And I think
understanding that a lot ofshows do this job for people.
Emotionally, they're gettingsomething. You know, there's
certain people that after a bigpolitical event or a big world
event, I'm just, like, waitingfor them to release their
episode. And the emotional thingI'm looking for is just, like, I

(43:26):
need somebody to help me processthis emotionally.
Mhmm. So I'm just waiting forthat voice that's going to calm
me down, that's going to, like,walk through everything and
really deconstruct it. Andthat's an emotional experience.
They might think of it as, like,intellectual. No.
I'm intellectually going throughall this stuff. No. No. No. Your

(43:47):
listener has an emotionalexperience to what you're doing.
And understanding that is gonnahelp you connect better with the
listener and hopefully becausethe way you put it, it was like,
they might not be able toarticulate it, but they're
feeling what that showrepresents for them. So when it
pops up in their feed, they'relike, oh, yeah. It's time for

(44:09):
that feeling.

Jeremy (44:11):
Yeah. And I think, you know, on that front, like we
were talking about before wherethere's these multiple kind of
sources of magnetism for a showfrom the concept to the host to
an episode, I think that that'ssimilar with a show that is
inherently intellectual. You canhave a show that's purely
intellectual, but if you alsopair that with an emotional
experience Mhmm. That's anotherdeeper level of hook that keeps

(44:31):
people coming back. And so theycome their brain their rational
brain is, like, yeah, I come tothe show to learn about this.
But there's also this other pullthat they probably aren't even
aware of that pulls them intothat show because the show makes
them feel a certain way withoutthem realizing it. And so I
think Yeah. You know, you canhave one or the other. But if
you have both, that's somethingthat's really helpful.

Justin (44:48):
Be a great thing to add to a listener survey that I've
never actually seen anyone do,but have a question around what
emotions do you attach to ourshow and see, how people feel
about your show subconsciously.

Jeremy (45:04):
I'm gonna add that to my, template. So as we're kinda
wrapping up this episode here,I'm curious if you have a show
or several shows in mind thatyou think are just truly great
podcasts, that these shows makegreat use of podcasting as a
medium.

Justin (45:19):
Yeah. I'll I'll call out I've mentioned the show before,
but Notes on Work by CalebPorzio is, I think, the best
solo podcast I've ever listenedto. He does it in one take, and
it just feels magical to me thathe has this gift of articulating
himself in this way. I onlylisten to about half the

(45:40):
episodes because he's aprogrammer, and sometimes he'll
talk about programming stuffthat I'm actually not that
interested in. I'm moreinterested in his thoughts on
life and work and the brillianceof the show when he's
experiencing something, and itwould be something that he would
normally maybe tweet or write ablog post on.
Instead, he hits record, and hejust processes it out loud ten,

(46:06):
fifteen, thirty minutes. And Ijust find it so refreshing.
Emotionally, it does this job,which I actually I I go to
podcasts a lot for this, whichis articulate part of your human
experience that is normallyhidden, but that you are
bringing out in a way that I canconnect with, I can identify

(46:29):
with. I can go, oh, here'sanother human on this journey
with me wrestling with thisstuff the same way I am, and
they even have some ideas on howthey deal with it. I also have
joked that it's like, it's I'mnot religious anymore, but it's
like going to church.
It's like Sunday morning walk,listen to this. It's like it

(46:51):
feels like that to me. Like, ah,I'm gonna get this kinda life
human connection moment, andthere's something very
emotionally resonant about itfor me.

Jeremy (47:04):
I got a handful here that I listened to. These are
many of the ones that are on myyou know, certainly listening in
the last month, if not the lastweek. I I almost feel bad,
Jaren, because I talk about itso much, is three books. I think
this is just one of the mostbrilliant audio only or
primarily audio shows that's outthere. I think there's a great
concept to it where it's anexpert interview show and Neil,

(47:25):
the host, kind of interviews theworld's most interesting people.
And so you can hear that itsounds a lot like Tim Ferriss
almost, like the world's topperforming people and dozens of
other shows. But he has thisunique device where he explores
these guest stories and theirexperiences through their three
most formative books. And soit's just such a unique frame to
bring to a show, a different wayof interviewing the same people

(47:46):
who show up elsewhere. The otherthing I like is he's got a whole
manifesto on his site abouttheir approach to books and to
reading and to the audience. Itis so clear that Neil has put so
much thought into every touchpoint of the show and made such
intentional creative decisionswith how he structures the show
and how he talks about the showand the brand that he's
building.
I think that that is just anexceptional use of the podcast

(48:08):
medium and, is one of myfavorite shows as well.

Justin (48:10):
Mhmm. Just a sidebar, I think that framing of a show,
you could if you have an opinionso my take on that would be,
instead of books, what threeinteractions or what three
connections, were mostmeaningful in your life. That's
just a great framing for a show,but you can see it comes out of
something I feel strongly about.And then you can have this whole

(48:33):
new take that no one else hashad for, you know, the boring
interview format. So, yeah, Ilove that.

Jeremy (48:39):
A couple honorable mentions from me. I've got, some
shows on here. Ologies, one ofthe biggest shows in the world.
Again, a wonderful conceptbehind that show. Good One,
which is a podcast about jokewriting and comedians, they come
on, they play,

Justin (48:51):
and they talk about I've been I've I've been listening on
your recommendation, and it's sogood.

Jeremy (48:56):
And then, Money for Couples, I've mentioned that one
a lot too from Ramit Sethi and,Jay Klaus' Creator Science and
David Perell's How I Write.Those are are some of the shows
that I think are the best use ofthe podcast platform. And one
interesting thing on those lastthree in particular, how I write
creative science money forcouples, I actually think they
were better podcasts when theywere audio only.

Justin (49:15):
And I

Jeremy (49:15):
think they've all made a shift to embracing YouTube,
which I think is good for thebrands of all of them. And I
think is actually a little bithurt the podcast listener
experience. Not like five to10%. Not a huge amount. Not
enough for me to, like, reallystop listening entirely, but I
wanna call out that dynamicbecause it it does exist.
Mhmm. What about you? Anyhonorable mentions?

Justin (49:35):
I I really like what Acquired is doing. I think
that's super smart. I've been along time listener of Making
Sense by Sam Harris. MostlyTechnical is that kind of buddy
comedy, show where there's twocohosts and they just do a great
job of having good takes oneverything every week. So those
are some of them for me.

(49:56):
Like I said, I'm I'm probablylistening to at least ten,
twelve different shows a week.

Jeremy (50:03):
So if you're interested in checking out the full 2024
podcast marketing trends report,you can find that at
podcastmarketingtrends.com forthe data, the kind of limited
data we pulled from the reportin this episode, and much, much
more. And we'll see you nextepisode.

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The Hidden Dynamics That Make Growing a Podcast Different From Any Other Content Channel | Podcast Listener Psychology

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Hidden Dynamics That Make Growing a Podcast Different From Any Other Content Channel | Podcast Listener Psychology