There’s no shortage of advice to be found on how to grow your audience. But how closely does that advice align with how podcast listeners say they actually find, choose (and abandon) the shows they listen to?
It turns out, there are a number of surveys that have asked listeners to share their discovery and consumption habits. And while the data can sometimes contradict itself, it offers us as creators a peek behind the curtain into podcast listeners’ hidden psychology, so that we can better meet them where they’re at with our marketing and our shows.
What’s more, this data offers us a blueprint for the questions to ask (and avoid) when conducting our own listener research.
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Topics Covered
00:00 Should you listen to your listeners feedback?
05:42 The Mom Test
08:23 How listeners discover podcasts: Active vs. passive
16:07 Understanding the broader context behind audience behaviour
26:33 Discovery doesn't matter without distinctiveness
31:02 Why listeners stop listening
39:13 Doing your own audience research
⭐️ Get a free podcast marketing audit with personalized recommendations to help you grow: https://podcastmarketingacademy.com/audit ⭐️
Resource
The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick
Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick
Atomic Habits by James Clear.
Life Profitability by Adii Pienaar.
Tom Webster
Additional Resources
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Check out the Podcast Marketing Trends 2024 Report
Subscribe to the Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter
Try Transistor.fm for free for 14 days
✍️ Leave your feedback for the show: http://podcastmarketingtrends.com/feedback
Podcast Listener Psychology
Understanding why people listen to podcasts—and why they stop—is an essential aspect of improving the efficiency of your marketing—ie. more growth with less effort. Listener psychology encompasses everything from understanding attention spans and content preferences to parasocial relationships and listening habits.
Most podcast creators focus exclusively on content without considering the baked in psychology that is hard-wired into their listeners. The result is unwittingly marketing your show on hard mode. Learn to understand the cognitive biases, emotional triggers, and decision-making patterns that influence how all humans (including me, you, and all your listeners) discover, consume, and share podcast content, you can create shows that not
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy (00:00):
We hear all these best practices. This is how you
should market your show. Butthat actually might be out of
sync with how listeners actuallydiscover or choose shows.
Justin (00:10):
The problem with these surveys, there's a big gulf
between what people say they'lldo and what they'll actually do.
And you feel like you'revalidating the idea because
people are giving you goodfeedback and responding well to
it.
Jeremy (00:23):
One of the kinda core questions to get around it is so
one of the most common pieces ofadvice for any creator is to go
ask your audience what they wantand then make that thing. And
I'm curious if you have ever hadthis experience before where
maybe with a piece of content,maybe with a product or a
business where you found somepotential customers or audience
(00:47):
members, you said, hey. Wouldyou buy this thing? And if so,
how did that turn out for you?
Justin (00:53):
Yeah. This happens all the time when you're building
software. I actually when I wasin my early twenties, I had this
idea to build software fornonprofits that would help them
track donors and funds raisedand all this stuff. I went
around to different people andasked them what they wanted. You
know?
(01:13):
And they would tell me all thisstuff, and I would show them
screens, and they would say, oh,we want this feature here and
this feature there. And the ideawas I was like, okay. Well, if I
build this, will you buy it?Will you use it? And they're all
like, yeah.
Yeah. For sure. So I talked toprobably dozens of people, all
these different directors ofnonprofits. And then this is
back when you had to distributesoftware really on CD ROMs. So I
(01:36):
remember I built this thing, andit took me forever.
Just, like, lots of evenings andweekends and incorporated all
their feedback. Like, everythingthey'd asked for, I put in
there. I had it all in this onepanel, and it was beautiful.
And, then I pressed, I think, ahundred CDs
Jeremy (01:55):
Yes.
Justin (01:55):
With the software on it, and then went to the trade show
and set up a table. I sold one.And I saw the people that I had
talked to, and I was like, hey,like, I built what you wanted, I
had a little demo. And they'relike, oh, cool. And I was like,
what's going on here?
And the truth is they had theirown systems that the pull of the
(02:19):
current system and what theyactually used and, I guess,
actually wanted was they didn'twanna switch to a new system.
They wanted the thing that theywere already using. And I just
remember being so disappointed.Sold one. And it would like, the
one I sold was like a pity sale.
So, yeah, it's yeah. I'vedefinitely experienced that.
What what about you?
Jeremy (02:39):
Yeah. I've experienced this. One of the first products
that I created was actually a,calendar based on my landscape
photography. I did not askanybody if they wanted this.
And, I and I laid this calendarout.
I did everything in, like,Photoshop, which is the
stupidest way to create acalendar. There's software that
can do that, and I was cheap,and so I did it all myself. I
probably printed, like, 250 ofthese to meet the minimum
(03:00):
printing requirement, spenthundreds of dollars, maybe even,
a thousand dollars on it. And,yeah, I I sold to my mom, I
think my grandparents, my aunts,and I think there's a pity
purchase from my cousins maybeMhmm. And nobody beyond that.
So that was my actual firstproduct. The other one that I
actually did attempt to do someof this validation was the first
podcast product I created wascalled the cut the bullshit
podcast gear guide. And so I hada Facebook group called the cut
(03:23):
the bullshit podcast community,and I created this gear guide
that was basically my logic wasthere's so much content online
about which microphones to buyand all of this. And so I was
like, I'm gonna synthesize allthis into, like, just the one
guide that you need for this.And so I pitched this to a bunch
of people, and people were like,oh, wow.
This is so needed. Like, I can'tfigure out what gear to buy and
whatever. And then, you know, Ispent all this time putting this
(03:45):
thing together. I hired my nowwife, who I was not my wife at
the time, was not my girlfriend,was just somebody I knew to do
all the layout and design andactually the copywriting editing
of the book. So there'ssomething good that came out of
this.
Man, this
Justin (03:58):
sounds like a good endeavor. I think I think you
still came out a winner on thisone.
Jeremy (04:02):
Yeah. I think I did come out a winner, but not on the
sales front. That, that productcost probably a lot of money.
That was a one of my productsthat is is in the negative for
sure to this day. Sold maybe a afew copies, and all these people
who I went to who had beenreally excited about it before I
made it, crickets.
And it was kind of, again, like,yeah, but we can find it all
online already. So, you know,this isn't worth the $17 to me
(04:25):
or whatever I was charging forit. So, yes. I've certainly been
there as well.
Justin (04:30):
I think the danger in this, whether it's a product or
a podcast, is when you go up tosomebody and you say, would you
buy this or would you listen tothis podcast, is people don't
wanna be rude. And so they oftenwill validate your idea because
they wanna feel encouraging. Youknow? This is probably more true
in North America than maybeother places. You know, this
(04:52):
idea that, oh, yeah.
I I would totally listen to thatshow. Oh, yeah. You should you
should do that. You shouldreally make that show. And you
feel like you're validating theidea because people are giving
you good feedback and respondingwell to it.
But as many of us have seen,sometimes there's a a big gulf
between what people say they'lldo and what they'll actually do.
Jeremy (05:15):
And I think that this actually applies both on the
show creation level. We can veryoften go out and do research and
say, hey. I'm thinking aboutdoing a show like this. Would
that be interesting to you? Andthen there's also the how do
people actually use and discoverpodcasts.
And so a lot of times, we hearall these best practices for,
oh, this is how you shouldmarket your show, but that
actually might be out of syncwith how listeners actually
(05:35):
discover shows or choose shows.And so we can end up doing
things that don't work for ourlisteners or don't work for
listeners in general. And thisis, like, such a ubiquitous
problem that somebody has, infact, written a book about this
and actually the way to getaround it. His name is Rob
Fitzpatrick. I know he's big inthe indie hacker community and
also the kind of creatorcommunity.
(05:56):
He's written several fantasticbooks now as well. But he wrote
a book called the mom test anumber of years ago. Have you
read this book, and can you kindof articulate the premise of it?
Justin (06:05):
Yeah. The the idea is that well, he called it the mom
test because if you present anidea to your mom, she'll almost
always lie. Like, she'll sayshe'll be like, hey, mom. I'm
thinking about doing this.
Sam Mullins (06:15):
She'll be like, yeah. You should do that.
Justin (06:17):
And then again, she'll be the one person to pity, buy,
or listen to your podcast. Thethe premise of the book is that
people will lie to you. And it'snot like they're being
malicious, but if you ask themtheir opinion on something, they
wanna be nice. And often, theymight even feel like it's the
truth. Like, oh, yeah.
I would totally listen to apodcast like that. But there's a
(06:39):
big discrepancy between whatthey'll say they'll do and what
people actually do. It's kind oflike, anything. It's like you
could ask somebody, in 2025, doyou think you'll buy some new
furniture? And people will belike, yeah.
I'll buy some furniture in 2025.But then when you actually see
their year, they don't followthrough on it. Whereas they
(06:59):
there could be some things hesay, you know, I would never
listen to a podcast like this.And then lo and behold, all
their friends start listening tothat podcast, and now they're
listening to that podcast. Sothe premise of the book is that
what people say and what theyactually do, there's a big
difference between those twothings.
There's ways of figuring outwhat people will actually do as
(07:22):
opposed to what just they'll saythey'll do.
Jeremy (07:24):
You know, I've read the book as well, and it's a
phenomenal read for anybody whois making anything that you are
trying to build an audiencearound. And, really, his answer
to this problem is just look atthe behavior. It's like you're a
anthropologist with a clipboardobserving consumers, and you're
like, what actions are theytaking without my interference?
One of the kinda core questionsthat he'll ask is like, okay.
(07:45):
The last time you experiencedthis problem, what did you do?
And they can very clearly tellyou what the actions that they
took rather than saying, whatwould you do if you were looking
to solve this problem in thefuture? There's been a bunch of
research. You know, we oftenhave different kind of marketing
strategies and ideas around whatwe should do to make our podcast
more discoverable. And there'sactually been a bunch of reports
and surveys designed to get atthe core of this problem and ask
(08:07):
listeners, how do you actuallyfind podcasts? How do you
actually choose what to listento?
And I think that if we canbetter understand, you know,
what listeners at least selfreport they do, how they find
new podcasts, we can align withthat a little bit better.
Justin (08:20):
Mhmm. Yeah. I like this. Let's look at some of this data.
Jeremy (08:24):
Okay. So the first thing that I just wanna lay out there
for some context here is itstruck me I was piecing through
a bunch of the data here. And sowe've got reports from Sounds
Profitable. The podcast host putone together, Westwood One and
Cumulus Podcast Network, SignalOne Insights, and then Riverside
actually did a big composite ofa bunch of this data. So people
can kinda go look up thoseresources.
(08:44):
We'll include those links in theshow notes as well. But it it
kinda became clear to me thatthere were two different
methodologies to some of thesesurveys that addressed people in
different places. And so what iskind of clear is that podcast
discovery happens in twoimportant ways. And the first,
which most of these surveysaddress, is, like, active
(09:05):
podcast discovery. And so it'slike people are seeking out a
show on a topic.
And so here you see a lot ofresponses of, like, they go to
search in their podcast appwhere they ask friends. But
there's also this other kind ofpodcast discovery, which is this
passive where it's just like youhear your friends talking about
it over months. You don't evenknow where you first heard about
it, but you eventually sign upand listen and become a
(09:26):
subscriber. And so before we getinto the data, a for a typical
show that you listen to, whichof these is more likely to be
the way that you came acrossthat show?
Justin (09:36):
The most likely is that it's just in the ether. Like, my
the people I hang out withonline are talking about the
show, and it keeps coming up. Itmight get reinforced with clips
I've seen. It might getreinforced with people
referencing it in conversation.And then eventually, I'll be
like, okay.
I'm gonna check this out.Sometimes it's like existing
(09:59):
shows I listen to will mentionit. I'll be like, oh, that
sounds good. I think that's howit manifests mostly for me.
Jeremy (10:06):
Yeah. I would say that earlier in my listening career
listening career as if this ismy full time job. Earlier in my
listening career, I was verymuch more an seeker out of
podcasts, and I think that wasactually when I didn't have an
existing base of shows that Ialready knew and liked. And so I
had space to fill, and so I waslooking for stuff to fill it.
And oftentimes that was alignedwith wanting to learn some
(10:28):
specific skills.
So I would go into an app andsearch for, okay, podcasts on
online business, and I wouldcome up with a list, and I'd
pick one out of that. Now itfeels like my space has been
taken up, and I don't tend tolisten to serial podcasts or
seasonal podcasts. And so justall the shows I listen to are
perpetual, and so there's onlyso much space for it. And we've
kinda talked about this in aprevious episode. So now I feel
(10:48):
like it really has to be thisoverwhelming kind of amount of
Yeah.
Presence of the show in my lifewhere it becomes unignorable for
the point where I'm like, okay.I'll reluctantly give it a try.
And so I think there's so manydifferent types of listeners,
and it's hard to say whether youand I are representative. I
think the casual podcastlistener may be more, like,
series driven. Like, I think atrue crime listener, you've
(11:10):
finished a series and you'relooking for the next one.
You're always seeking outsomething new. But there's
another type of listener whomight be more like us, where
it's like you've got your stableof shows, and, like, something
has to be kind of unignorable toforce its way in.
Justin (11:21):
I love that you brought up how this is very phase
driven. Like, I think for thoseof you out there listening right
now, you can remember the timewhen you first got your iPhone,
and everybody was talking about,like, what new apps are you
trying out. You might have evenbrowsed the App Store. Like,
when's the last time youactually browsed the App Store?
(11:41):
I think most of us are like,we've got enough apps.
We don't need anymore. We'regood. But clearly, there are
still people out there browsingfor new apps. You know? They are
in that phase of their phonelife.
And I think podcasting was thesame. You know? When I started
podcasting, I was looking at thetop charts in Apple Mhmm.
(12:02):
Downloading some of those shows,trying them out, and then
getting recommendations. Often,a network would be able to
recommend me multiple shows, andI would, like, listen to all the
shows in that network.
That's not happening anymore.Now I'm very much like you. I've
gotten my stable set of shows,and those are the ones I listen
to. And maybe every once inwhile, I'll try out something
new. But you have to earn yourspot, and there's not very much
(12:26):
room in my, list.
Jeremy (12:28):
So let's go into some of the data here. There's one
question from the podcast host'slistener survey. And I will, off
the bat, say that there are someinteresting things about the
respondents to these varioussurveys. And so podcast hosts,
their respondents tended to bepodcast creators that they were
asking about their listeningpreferences. And so this is a
skewed audience that is notnecessarily representative of
(12:50):
just pure listeners who are notalso creators.
But they asked the question, youwant to find a new podcast. What
do you do first? And the clearkind of winner here, 50% of
respondents said, I open up mypreferred podcasting app. And so
they go to the app and theysearch for something. And this
is true to me.
Like, if I'm searching for a newpodcast, I am basically a % of
the time. I don't go to Google.I don't ask people. I, like,
(13:11):
don't want opinions. I wanna gosee for myself.
I open up the app and lookthrough there. And then the next
responses were all kind ofsimilar in this, like, 10 to
13%. And so we got listened tolisten out for recommendations
on the podcast I already enjoy.Directly ask someone I know who
likes the same stuff. Use asearch engine such as Google or
Bing.
Ask on social media or in anonline community. And then 1%,
(13:32):
this is very surprising to me,was search on YouTube. But, I
mean, the way that that makessense to me is, like, I would
never go to YouTube to searchfor a podcast. And this being a
respondent base of podcastcreators, I would assume them to
be similar where they actuallywould not go to they're so
podcast savvy. They would go toa podcast app rather than
YouTube.
Justin (13:50):
This is where what people say and what people
actually do, I think, getsmuddy. Yeah. Because I think the
most podcast discovery onYouTube is just people opening
up YouTube, and suddenly,they're listening to a podcast.
Yes. So you really have to watchpeople.
And I think Yes. If you getanything out of this, I think
(14:13):
surveys are good. I want peopleto think about like, you're at a
friend's house. Just, like, askthem to open up their YouTube
app on their TV and just seewhat's getting recommended. And
that's generally the kind ofcontent they've been engaging
with.
And I think that's where a lotof discovery is actually
happening. So yeah. Activediscovery. Sure. I'll open up
(14:34):
the app, and I'll look for it.
There's passive discovery, whichI think we're gonna talk about.
And, yeah, I think that's awhole other ballgame.
Jeremy (14:42):
Yeah. And this is where it actually gets interesting
when we look at passivediscovery, and we see a lot of
contradictory advice to that.Know, if we look at this active
discovery, we see only 1% ofpeople search on YouTube. But
then we see a report from SignalHill and Cumulus. They show that
for weekly podcast consumers wholisten to podcasts regularly and
who listen to a new show in thepast six months, YouTube was
(15:03):
actually the top place that theyfirst encountered that show, and
that was 31% of people there.
Spotify was second with 24, andthen Apple Podcast was, third
with 12. Clearly, this questionis around platform. And so it's
like, what's the first platformyou engage with the show? It's
not necessarily where did youhear about the show. So it's
possible that other factors likeGoogle search could lead to
(15:23):
YouTube, word-of-mouth couldlead to YouTube.
There's all these other placesthat could lead somebody to
YouTube or Spotify or Apple, butpeople first engaged on YouTube.
So that's kind of interesting.And then we have the other
report from sounds profitable,and they asked, aside from
personal recommendations, whichof the following are the ways
that you find podcasts? YouTubewas far and away the the winner
here, the leader here with 52%,and then the next two were 27%
(15:48):
each for searching the Internetand Facebook and then a bunch of
other kind of places peoplediscover podcasts. So these
reports seem to suggest thatYouTube is the first place that
more passively people are firstengaging with or encountering
podcasts.
Justin (16:00):
One thought that just came up is I can you can already
see the problem with thesesurveys, and let me explain why.
This assumes that all podcastdiscovery is kind of the same.
It's like everybody is just likewaking up every day, and there's
a a equal probability, equallikelihood, equal context that
(16:23):
will lead someone to find a newshow. But we all know that
humans don't behave in that way.Let me give you an example.
And this is why actuallyinterviewing people about their
real behavior is important. SoI'm gonna go through a a fake
interview with you. Hey. Whatpodcast did you just listen to?
(16:46):
Well, oh, I I I checked out thisseries that I'd heard about
before.
And okay. Well, what precededthat? Like, why were you looking
for a podcast in the firstplace? Oh, well, I've got a
twenty hour road trip coming up,and I decided to find, you know,
twenty hours worth of material Icould listen to while I'm on
this road trip. Okay.
(17:07):
So now, this gives you waybetter information than what you
would have gotten from thissurvey. So this survey is saying
YouTube, browsing podcast appsor directories, asking for
friends' recommendations. Butwhat's more interesting to me is
what's the context for all this?Yeah. And you don't get context
(17:29):
from these kind of generalsurvey responses.
The context is important becauseif it's true that a sizable
number of people, the time thatthey actually seek out new shows
is when they're about to go on aroad trip, then as a marketer,
that's actually helpfulinformation. Because then you
(17:50):
can target that time, that pointin their life, and say, best
podcast to download before yougo on a road trip. That's just
very clear to me as I'm lookingat all this stuff. For the
listener, how useful is thisinformation really gonna be? I I
don't know.
Like, what are you gonna do?Become more visible in your in
the podcasting apps? Sure. Youshould do that. But I think
(18:12):
what's gonna be more effectiveis targeting this very specific
sequence of events or this veryspecific trigger that happens in
someone's life that causes themto seek out a new show.
Jeremy (18:24):
Now there are a couple of rebuttals that I'll offer to
that. I agree with you entirelyon that point, but I think it is
also worthwhile to look at someof these things and say, okay.
These are the ways thatlisteners report finding new
podcasts. And I think that thereare some questions that are
actually framed quite well. Andso I actually like this one from
the podcast host.
They ask, think about the lastpodcast you listened to. How did
(18:47):
you discover it? And Mhmm.Again, it could be and it likely
is for many shows that there area bunch of factors where, you
know, you might not be able totrace it back to one person
because five different peopleare telling you about it. You
see it on social media.
You see the clips. It's like,it's just everywhere. It's just
in the ether. But I think we canlook at some of these lists and
say, have I done everything Ican to optimize to the degree
that I'm able to for each ofthese things? And especially if
(19:09):
there are things that I can doonce, and then I don't need to
think about it again.
And so we can see from some ofthese things that people do
report finding podcasts bysearch in both Google and in
podcast apps. And so then we canask ourselves, okay. Is there a
keyword? Like, maybe I shouldask my audience because I can
assume that a significantpercentage of them will search
(19:30):
for podcasts like mine, and Ican start to do some
interviewing and say, you know,when you discovered my podcast,
like, what kind of keywordsearch terms did you put in? And
we can say, oh, my show doesn'tcome up for any of those because
I don't have it in my title.
I don't have it in mydescription. I don't use it in
my episode titles. Listeners aretelling us this is how we're
doing it, and then we can say,okay. Well, am I doing
everything I can to bediscoverable by them?
Justin (19:52):
I'll push back just a little bit. Alright. And say,
like, browsing a podcast appdirectory or chart. Yeah. That
information is useless unlessyou understand what was the
underlying motivation andtrigger, Because it's gonna be
highly dependent on what's goingon in their life.
If you dig a little bit deeperand you find out, oh, most of my
(20:16):
listeners, new listeners thatcome around, they've just had a
baby. Well, that's the context.And then what do they do next?
Oh, then they search podcastapps for these keywords. Okay.
Then that's helpful informationbecause we've got the initial
context or trigger, and then wegot what they did about it. But
(20:36):
your audience, for example,might not follow any of these.
So there's always thispropensity for people to look at
survey results and go, okay.Browse podcast app, direct your
chart. That I gotta that's thenumber one thing I gotta do.
And it's like, well, no. No. No.No. You gotta figure out how
this works for your audience.
Here's another one. Like I said,the context was I was about to
(21:00):
go on a road trip. What did youdo next? Well, they might say, I
also browsed a podcast app orwhatever. But instead of
searching for a keyword, I wasjust looking for playlists on
Spotify Mhmm.
Where I was just browsing thetop 10. You know? So context,
and then what was their specificbehavior, in this case, in the
(21:22):
podcast app directory orwhatever. That's the nuance I
think I'd like to add on here. Ithink it's just so easy in
marketing.
What I see people you know,we'll have a discussion like
this, and then people willimmediately go, okay. Well, my
number one thing is I've gottapost all my stuff on social
media because social media postby the podcast creator is number
two. You gotta know more. Yougotta know more about what
(21:45):
actually works for youraudience. And the only way
you're gonna do that is byobserving, by interviewing, and
getting more of that context.
Jeremy (21:54):
Social media was actually 71% in the headliner,
report that they put together.
Justin (21:59):
That's right. So we've
Jeremy (22:01):
also got some variants.
Justin (22:02):
Data too. So
Jeremy (22:04):
Yeah. And I think that that's an interesting point here
that, you know, all of theseplatforms, they're they're
pulling from survey pools ofdifferent people that we don't
really know who these peopleare. I would put a lot of stock
in that sounds profitable justbecause they have, you know,
this history of methodology ofdoing research with Tom Webster
and everything that he's done atEdison. And so, like, I trust
their data quite a bit. And theyalso have, I think, from what I
(22:25):
saw, the largest survey pool ofpeople, that they did in their
survey, which actually leadsinto this other, you know,
interesting point here aroundthis data is that a lot of times
these discovery channels getchunked out in interesting ways
that I think actually could beconsolidated.
And so in sounds profitables,they mentioned here in the
(22:46):
question, aside from personalrecommendations, which of the
following are the ways you findpodcasts? And so YouTube was
number one at 52%, but Icouldn't find it in this report.
But Riverside's, I believe theymentioned and sounds profitable,
and there's elsewhere mentionsthat YouTube was number two to
word-of-mouth andrecommendations. And this
actually does seem to be aconsistent theme with all of
(23:07):
these reports is if you start toadd up recommendations from
people online, recommendationsfrom people offline, family,
friends, colleagues, socialmedia posts from whose people
who aren't the creator. Itconsistently is that people
talking about the show is themost common way that people
report discovering shows.
And this to me feels very true.Like, it's in the ether. People
are talking about it, andeventually it breaks through.
Justin (23:29):
Yeah. I think general survey results are just going to
be predisposed to certainthings. So if this is just a
general audience and YouTube isthe number one search thing,
it's like, well, what are theysearching for? Like, there's
just a specific like, are theysearching for celebrities? It's
(23:49):
like, oh, I I love Tim Ferriss.
I'm gonna see if Tim Ferriss hasa podcast. And they search Tim
Ferriss, it comes up. It's like,okay, well, that's useful
information for Tim Ferriss. Isthat information for Joe or Jane
podcaster that has their ownbranded show? Maybe not.
We're getting very generalizedresults here that just Mhmm. Had
(24:12):
applied to your specificsituation. Any kind of
mainstream survey, mainstreamresponse is going to be
directionally correct. But I Ijust I would love to see way
more data. Like, if I couldactually talk to these
respondents and say, okay,YouTube, talk to me about that.
What does that mean? And to hearthe actual story of Mhmm. What
(24:35):
they were doing and whatinfluenced it, that's the meaty
that's the meat. You know?That's what we want.
That's the whole point of thebook. The mom test is we need to
get into those details.
Jeremy (24:48):
Yeah. You know, there's an interesting tie in here
talking about word-of-mouth. SoRob Fitzpatrick, author of the
mom test, he has another bookcalled write useful books. And
the whole premise of the book isbasically that the only way that
books grow is that people talkabout them. And I think that
podcasting is exactly the sameway, and so it doesn't surprise
me at all.
And so he shares graphs of,like, New York Times
bestsellers, usually books thatare published with a big
(25:11):
publisher. They get a big youknow, they game the system.
They'll sell a bunch of books,and then the charts all drop off
a cliff, and they basicallynever sell any books again. And
the only books that sell on anongoing basis are those that
people talk about. And so youneed to get it out to your seed
audience, that first, like, 500people.
And then if the show isrecommendable, people will talk
about it. And so I think thatthis is something where we've
(25:31):
talked about this a lot on thisshow is, like, there are all
these marketing tactics andstrategies, but they have to be
paired with this show that isdistinctive and unique and
memorable and something thatpeople can't easily substitute
for something else. Like, thisis the foundation of a show that
is going to do well with all ofthese discovery platforms.
Justin (25:50):
And this is hard to do. Like, I I've gotten sent early
access copies of books. And Ithink the only one that I
recommend frequently is, like,Atomic Habits by James Clear and
Life Profitability by AddiePinaar. And the other books I
got, like, they were perfectlywell written, whatever, but they
(26:13):
weren't memorable. I justthey're not getting discussed.
So this is not easy No. Whatwe're suggesting here. The
reason I'm kind of fired upright now is I think getting
some of this information willactually give you the clues to
Yes. Not only marketing the showproperly, but producing the kind
of show that gets talked about.
Jeremy (26:34):
So so far, we've kind of talked about some of the data on
how listeners say they discovershows. A lot of these surveys
actually also ask listenersabout why do you stop listening
to shows. And I think that thisis also again, everything needs
to be taken with a grain ofsalt, but it is interesting. We
don't often get to talk to ourlisteners. And, you know, we
actually did a survey in seasonone.
We asked our listeners, like,why don't you listen? Why did
(26:54):
you stop listening? And we gotsome interesting stuff there. So
you can go back and listen tothat episode if you're curious.
But we don't typically, ascreators, get to talk to the
people who opt out, who churn,and understand why that might
be.
And so the first one is from thepodcast host, and they have this
question, when listening to anew show, how long do you give
it to hook you in before yougive up on it? And, again, for
(27:15):
context, this is podcastcreators that they're serving,
and so I imagine this to beactually overly generous
compared to a traditionallistener who may not know how
much work goes into creating ashow. And so what's interesting
here is that 57% of people givea show fifteen minutes or less
to win them over and decide. Andso 40% of people said up to
(27:35):
fifteen minutes, and 17% ofpeople said five minutes or
less. The next, kinda closestwas one full episode, 29%.
Is this accurate to yourexperience with the show? How
often how long do you give ashow before you're like, nah.
This isn't doing it for me.
Justin (27:50):
I mean, if I subscribe to a show, usually what happens
then it starts showing up in myPocket Cast. I'll filter by new
episodes. That's kinda like mycue. And so I'll see the show a
few times. Honestly, sometimesit's just like, I'll see, like,
five to 10 episodes roll by.
And every once in a while, like,okay. I'm gonna give this a go.
(28:12):
And they'll listen to, no, no,no, no, archive. And then I'll
give it a shot the next timethey have an episode. So it's
there.
You know, it's on the frontdoorstep. But whether I'm gonna
actually, you know, open up thedoor and let it in is another
question.
Jeremy (28:29):
I think I'm a harsh listener. I think I listen to so
many shows and have such a broadexposure to podcasting in
general that I think I am veryquick. Like, I recognize the
signs of a show that's not gonnabe worth my time. I know that
there's so much good stuff outthere that, like, the first five
or ten minutes don't feel likeit's gonna get me there if I
don't feel confident that thisis going to pay off. And so I
(28:52):
think about this all the time.
Jerry Seinfeld has this analogywhere as a comedian, the
audience has to believe that,like, essentially, you're the
pilot of the plane. The audienceis on the plane. They have to
have confidence that you'regonna have the ability to land
the plane, that you're going tobe able to make this experience
pay off for them. Mhmm. And sothat I think is is super
important to podcasters as well.
And this was something that Iwas doing the audit of a client
(29:13):
show last year, and it kindajumped out at me before I
actually heard the JerrySeinfeld analogy. But I kind of
coined it as, like, the audienceneeds to feel like they're in
good hands. And I I thought ofit as, like, you're a passenger
and you're driving withsomebody. And there's we've all
had that experience where you'redriving with somebody who just
feels kinda reckless or justunsafe. Maybe they're, like, on
their phone.
Maybe they're talking to you.Yeah. And you're just, like,
gripping the handle in the carand just like, okay. Like, I
(29:35):
hope this is gonna turn outalright. And I feel that a lot
of time with podcasts where Idon't feel like the host knows
where this is going.
I don't feel like it's gonna payoff. Whereas there's other shows
from the minute you click play,you're just like, oh, this is
gonna be good. And you can kindajust, like, sit back and enjoy
the ride because Mhmm. The hosthas given you all these cues
that, like, oh, they're settingthis up in a way that, you know,
I know this is gonna lead tosome kind of payoff in the end.
Justin (29:58):
I think the listening mode obviously matters a lot
here. Like, if you're justsitting around your house and
you're about to wash the dishes,you've got a little bit more
time to be like, okay. What showdo I wanna listen to? And you're
like, try this one. No.
But there's a big differencebetween that and getting in your
car in the morning. You've gottaget to work by 08:30. And you're
(30:19):
just like, okay. What am I gonnalisten to? I gotta make a quick
decision, and then I'm lockedin.
So it's like, click. And thenthis show now has my attention
for thirty minutes because
Jeremy (30:28):
Yeah.
Justin (30:28):
That's it. You know? So it is interesting to know which
mode your listeners are in orwhich modes they are in most
often because, that'll give youa better chance. And then that's
where things like the chartsmight actually matter. So I get
in my car.
What am I gonna listen to?Whatever gets recommended to me
by the Spotify algorithm,whatever's top of charts in
(30:50):
Apple Podcasts, I trust itbecause the popularity has
indicated it's trustworthy. NowI'll click play. Right? So,
yeah, different modes lead todifferent kind of how much time
you'll give a show.
Jeremy (31:02):
So the next kind of piece of data here that is
actually really interesting fromSounds Profitable. So they asked
basically two versions or twosimilar questions, which the
first is think of a podcast thatused to be a part of your
regular listening routine, butyou stopped listening to. Why
did you stop listening? And thenthe second question was why
haven't you listened to podcastsin general recently? And so this
is actually a kind ofinteresting thing where I think
(31:24):
if you are a podcast creator andprobably consumer, if you have
an identity around that, Icannot think of a scenario in
which I would stop listening topodcasts.
So I assume everybody's likethat. But, actually, there are
two factors at play here. Peoplewill stop listening to one show,
and people will stop listeningto podcasts in favor of probably
other media. So maybe they'rewatching more YouTube videos.
(31:44):
Maybe they're watching moreNetflix.
Maybe they're getting away fromdigital stuff and going to
books. And so on the show sideof things, the number one reason
was they lost interest in theshow, and the number two thing
was that they lost interest inthe topic. So 25% of people lost
interest in the show. 22% ofpeople lost interest in the
topic. And we've talked aboutthis idea of churn before, and
it's not always that the show isbad.
(32:06):
It's that people are naturallyand if this data is indicative,
it's like 25% of people are justgoing to lose interest in your
show regardless of what you do.And what's more, twenty two
percent of people will loseinterest in your topic entirely.
And I think that this is such aninteresting kind of data point
just to keep in the back of ourminds. Like, there is nothing we
can do to keep everybodyengaged. And so we do constantly
(32:27):
need to be getting in front ofnew people because Mhmm.
There's always gonna be thatkinda leaky bucket.
Justin (32:32):
And I think this goes back to something else we've
said, which is every showdoesn't have to last forever.
Every show doesn't have to beevery week. I think doing
seasons is underrated. I thinkdoing limited run series is
underrated. I think also ifyou've been doing a podcast for
three or four years, it's fineto retire.
You know? It's okay. And it'snothing personal. Like, it's
just Yeah. You know?
(32:53):
Just think about your ownconsumption habits. Like, many
books have you started and notfinished? How many TV shows have
you started and not finished?How many people watch Breaking
Bad but didn't watch Better CallSaul? Like, it's nothing against
you.
It's just, of course, you wantthat attention, but that
attention is limited. It's likeone of the most finite resources
(33:14):
on the planet.
Jeremy (33:15):
Yeah. And I think the other thing here, people who
cited, that they stoppedlistening to shows entirely, 41%
of people said not enough freetime. And this was something
that we heard in our listenersurvey when we asked people why
they stopped listening. Time wasthe ultimate. It was the the big
one here, and we can see that isat play here as well for
podcasting as a medium as well.
And so there's kind of all theseforces that, like, no matter
(33:36):
what we do as creators, I thinkit's worth trying to make a show
that is unmissable, unignorable.Like, I think if you can create
a show like that, like, you'regonna get more people in, and
you're going to get moreword-of-mouth, and you're gonna
get more people sticking around.Mhmm. But even with that,
there's gonna be people who arechurning, and there are a few
more successful shows than ThisAmerican Life. I probably
listened to hundreds of episodesearly on, and then now I've gone
(33:58):
almost ten years.
I listened to my first episodein seven years, last week, and I
was like, god. This is a greatshow. But it's still just I'm
not in that phase of lifeanymore, and maybe I'll come
back to it five years from now.But, you know, for right now, it
just isn't the thing that I'mreaching for on a regular basis.
Justin (34:13):
Yeah. Like, you know where I go back to those classic
shows like Radio Lab and ThisAmerican Life is when we're on a
family road trip because theydon't wanna listen to the
podcast that I listen toregularly. They wanna listen to
it's gotta be a little bit moreopen, more storytelling. And so,
you know, that's a mode. There'sa job to be done there.
Like, what are the series thatwe should bring in for this
(34:36):
drive that everyone will enjoy?
Jeremy (34:39):
So we started off the episode talking about, you know,
product ideas that we had kindacome up with and, you know,
maybe influenced the publicopinion and then built those
things to, unfortunate results.
Justin (34:50):
Mhmm.
Jeremy (34:51):
On the podcast side of things as well, we kind of
hinted that that you can createa show that is basically, like,
asking people like, hey. Itseems like there's an interest
in this. Like, would you dowould you listen to a show if I
create it this way? And it couldbe creating a new show or it
could be making changes withyour existing show. And I think
that this brings up this tensionin doing creative work where one
of the most common piece ofadvice is ask your audience,
(35:13):
and, like, they'll tell you whatto create.
Mhmm. But there's this otherside that is your vision and
your intuition as the creator.
Justin (35:19):
You know, it's funny. Like, bands and artists often
will say, like, we don't ask ourfans for what they want. And
also, like, we don't, like, tryto think about what our fans
would like. I don't know ifthat's always true. I think,
like, especially bands that havemade it, they know through
experience what kinds of songsget people fired up.
They can see it. They perform itlive. It's like, wow. That one
(35:42):
just really took off. That'swhat a hit is.
And you develop this intuitivesense for making hits. You know?
Making hits that your fans willlike. And that's kind of how I
think about it. Like, you haveto know your audience.
You have to observe them. Youhave to be, I think, also tapped
(36:04):
in. While we are not normalpodcast listeners, like none of
the people listening to the showare a normal podcast listener.
Jeremy (36:12):
Yeah.
Justin (36:13):
At the same time, I think we can be introspective
about our own modes when itcomes to listening. And for
example, I think that thatobservation that, oh, my family
listens to podcasts before along road trip. And I've just
observed that online, likepeople saying, hey, I'm about to
drive from DC to wherever. Ineed podcast recommendations. So
(36:36):
I think, you know, making a showaround road trips, like, having
that as your kind of basis, Ithink is actually a good kind of
idea.
And Mhmm. You might be able toexecute on that and actually
match up with that demand oflike, oh, hey, you're doing a
road trip? Well, we have, like,great long form stories that are
(36:59):
two hours long, perfect for roadtrips, good for the whole
family. Why don't you give it atry? You know?
I think that's kind of how I'dbe thinking about all this
stuff.
Jeremy (37:09):
To your point about, like, bands, you just soak in
the space long enough, and youget enough feedback on what
works and what doesn't. And Ithink part of this is
understanding, like, creatingyour own things and getting
feedback on that, but then beinga super consumer of other
content in general and in yourspace, this always is a huge red
flag for me. I've had so manyclients throughout the years who
(37:31):
they'll come to me. They'llwanna start a podcast and say,
well, I don't listen topodcasts. And they'll they'll
always say it, like, a littlebit like they know, like, that's
probably not the right thing.
Yeah. And it is so hard to makea show worth listening to if you
don't know what makes the mediumwork. And I think that this is
just one of those things wherethe people who have success in a
genre or in a medium, they aresuper consumers of that thing.
(37:53):
And it might not be that theyare currently super consumers of
that thing. I've heard ofcertain musicians who basically,
they consume the whole canon ofwork in their chosen genre.
And then once they startedcreating it, they started
listening to other stuff.Because they're like, I've
already listened to it already.I know this in my bones, and I'm
gonna start creating stuff. Andnow I wanna bring in outside
influences. And so they've donethe work beforehand to, like,
(38:15):
know what works, know thedynamics that are at play, know
all the genre conventions.
And so I think for myself, I donot create content that people
are asking for because I want itto be, like, fresh and original.
And if somebody's asking forsomething, you know that there
are tons of other creators whoare, like, looking up on Google,
like, okay. What's trending inGoogle right now? I'm gonna
create content around that. Youend up with these SEO optimized
(38:37):
posts that are just boring andbland and all the same.
And so I wanna see what comesbubbling up for me, but I can
only do that because I've spentalmost a decade spending all of
my time in the podcasting world.And so, like, anything that I
find interesting is probablygonna be interesting to other
people. Because if it'sinteresting to me after ten
years and, like, consumingeverything, like, oh, this must
be a somewhat original, I hope,idea. And so I think, like, that
(38:59):
is the work that needs to bedone really early on is just,
like, being in your space, beingan active participant of the
community, consuming yourcompetitor shows, consuming
other shows from other nichesand genres, and then, like,
letting that bubble up throughyou and, like, letting yourself
act as the filter to createsomething original.
Justin (39:14):
Yeah. I do think listener responses and listener
requests can be helpful becausethey are your listeners. So they
are already in motion. And so ifthey're saying, oh, man. I I
listened to the last episode,and they're all, like, wondering
the same things, like, they havethe same follow-up questions, I
think those can be great to acton.
But it all has to be throughyour exactly what you said, your
(39:38):
filter. You have to be theexpert. You have to be the one
that can kinda put their fingerup in the air and get the
weather. You know? It's like,oh, yeah.
The wind's blowing this way.That's your job as the host.
Jeremy (39:49):
We've talked about some of the shortcomings of, you
know, these big broad surveyswhere we don't know what the
audience is. And we've alsomentioned, you know, several
times throughout, these twoseasons of the show, the value
of talking with your listeners,serving your own listeners. What
would you recommend as somebodywho is, like, wanting to
understand you maybe articulatedthis a little bit already. But
for somebody who's, curiousabout this data, curious about
knowing more about how maybetheir listeners discover shows,
(40:11):
what are the next steps forthem?
Justin (40:13):
I mean, I would if you're hanging out online with
people, you can observe youknow? So if you're in a
subreddit and people they mightnot be talking about podcasts,
but they might just be talkingabout questions they're
interested in, things thatthey're pursuing, things that
they're seeking out. If you'reat a conference talking to
people, if you're at an event ora meetup, just saying, hey,
(40:34):
like, even asking people, like,if they're in your audience,
hey, do you listen to podcasts?Oh, can you tell me, like,
what's the last podcast youstarted listening to? Oh,
interesting.
How'd you find out about that?Oh, cool. Well, what kind of
preceded that? Was thereanything that was happening at
the same time that triggeredthis? Or what what was going on
there?
And once you've done this enoughtimes, you really do start to
(40:58):
develop a sense. Like you said,you're kind of soaking in it.
And as you soak in it, youfinally you get these insights
that come bubbling to the topand go, oh, you know what? I
think people like this want ashow like this. People like this
do things like this.
And you can use those insightsto, like I said, produce and
(41:19):
structure a show that has kindof the right elements and the
right hooks. And then you canuse that same insight to market
the show. And this is a skillthat takes some time to develop.
You have to learn how to dothis. Because most people just
kind of passively you know, it'slike most people don't read all
(41:40):
the other YouTube comments on avideo.
Read all the comments. You know?Yeah. Get it really soak in,
like, what's the sentiment here?You know?
Jeremy (41:50):
Yeah. I think the thing that I would add to that is just
have as many calls or in personconversations with listeners as
possible. The value is notusually in what any one person
says. It's the feelings andintuitions and hunches that you
get after talking with 25 or 50people. And these can be
existing members of youraudience, or they can be
existing members of your targetaudience.
(42:12):
And so for anybody, like, thisis actually a even better type
of person to go after and talkto is think about, like, okay.
This person is not a listener tomy show, but they should be.
Like, I'm creating a show thatthey should be interested in. I
just wanna get to know moreabout them. And I'm not gonna be
pitching my show here.
I'm just trying to understandwhat content do they listen to?
How do they decide on podcastversus YouTube versus anything
else? What do they get out ofthese different mediums? And,
(42:34):
like, what shows do they listento or what shows do they watch?
And you start to piece togetherthese things as you just, like,
have these conversations, andyou're trying to find some
insights.
But over time, you justknowledge just kinds of becomes
a part of you where you're justlike, oh, I can actually see the
thread now looking back over theprevious six months. So there
are all these conversations.It's just clear to me where the
(42:54):
space is going and what peopleare wanting, and they can't even
put their finger on what theywant. They just know that this
thing, I wish there wassomething like this. And then
you start to understand, I seewhere I fit into this.
But the only way to get there isactually having the
conversations and then allowingthat to kind of stew.
Justin (43:09):
The way you could do this in your show is just say,
hey, friends. I want I'm tryingto talk to five of my listeners
this month. There is a link tobook a call with me in the show
notes. We'll do a quick Zoomcall. It will be so valuable for
me.
I'm excited to meet some of you.You know, lot of you have been
listening to me for a long time.Like, invite them that way, and
(43:31):
that call to action might beenough to get three or four
people to book a call with you,and then you can have these
great conversations. I've alsoseen people do this where they
have a separate feed that's justconversations with their fans.
Conan O'Brien did this kind offamously in their own feed.
Like, he he would get his fansto call in. And so that's like
(43:52):
customer research or listenerresearch, but it's also content.
So, yeah, two ideas on how Ithink you could actually
implement that.
Jeremy (44:00):
Alright. So if you are curious in digging into more of
the data that we cited and basedthis episode around, you can
find all the links to thevarious reports in the show
notes. And if you would like togo through the full 2024 podcast
marketing trends report, you canfind that at
podcastmarketingtrends.com. Andother than that, we will see you
next time.
We hear all these best practices. This is how you
should market your show. Butthat actually might be out of
sync with how listeners actuallydiscover or choose shows.
Justin (00:10):
The problem with these surveys, there's a big gulf
between what people say they'lldo and what they'll actually do.
And you feel like you'revalidating the idea because
people are giving you goodfeedback and responding well to
it.
Jeremy (00:23):
One of the kinda core questions to get around it is so
one of the most common pieces ofadvice for any creator is to go
ask your audience what they wantand then make that thing. And
I'm curious if you have ever hadthis experience before where
maybe with a piece of content,maybe with a product or a
business where you found somepotential customers or audience
(00:47):
members, you said, hey. Wouldyou buy this thing? And if so,
how did that turn out for you?
Justin (00:53):
Yeah. This happens all the time when you're building
software. I actually when I wasin my early twenties, I had this
idea to build software fornonprofits that would help them
track donors and funds raisedand all this stuff. I went
around to different people andasked them what they wanted. You
know?
(01:13):
And they would tell me all thisstuff, and I would show them
screens, and they would say, oh,we want this feature here and
this feature there. And the ideawas I was like, okay. Well, if I
build this, will you buy it?Will you use it? And they're all
like, yeah.
Yeah. For sure. So I talked toprobably dozens of people, all
these different directors ofnonprofits. And then this is
back when you had to distributesoftware really on CD ROMs. So I
(01:36):
remember I built this thing, andit took me forever.
Just, like, lots of evenings andweekends and incorporated all
their feedback. Like, everythingthey'd asked for, I put in
there. I had it all in this onepanel, and it was beautiful.
And, then I pressed, I think, ahundred CDs
Jeremy (01:55):
Yes.
Justin (01:55):
With the software on it, and then went to the trade show
and set up a table. I sold one.And I saw the people that I had
talked to, and I was like, hey,like, I built what you wanted, I
had a little demo. And they'relike, oh, cool. And I was like,
what's going on here?
And the truth is they had theirown systems that the pull of the
(02:19):
current system and what theyactually used and, I guess,
actually wanted was they didn'twanna switch to a new system.
They wanted the thing that theywere already using. And I just
remember being so disappointed.Sold one. And it would like, the
one I sold was like a pity sale.
So, yeah, it's yeah. I'vedefinitely experienced that.
What what about you?
Jeremy (02:39):
Yeah. I've experienced this. One of the first products
that I created was actually a,calendar based on my landscape
photography. I did not askanybody if they wanted this.
And, I and I laid this calendarout.
I did everything in, like,Photoshop, which is the
stupidest way to create acalendar. There's software that
can do that, and I was cheap,and so I did it all myself. I
probably printed, like, 250 ofthese to meet the minimum
(03:00):
printing requirement, spenthundreds of dollars, maybe even,
a thousand dollars on it. And,yeah, I I sold to my mom, I
think my grandparents, my aunts,and I think there's a pity
purchase from my cousins maybeMhmm. And nobody beyond that.
So that was my actual firstproduct. The other one that I
actually did attempt to do someof this validation was the first
podcast product I created wascalled the cut the bullshit
podcast gear guide. And so I hada Facebook group called the cut
(03:23):
the bullshit podcast community,and I created this gear guide
that was basically my logic wasthere's so much content online
about which microphones to buyand all of this. And so I was
like, I'm gonna synthesize allthis into, like, just the one
guide that you need for this.And so I pitched this to a bunch
of people, and people were like,oh, wow.
This is so needed. Like, I can'tfigure out what gear to buy and
whatever. And then, you know, Ispent all this time putting this
(03:45):
thing together. I hired my nowwife, who I was not my wife at
the time, was not my girlfriend,was just somebody I knew to do
all the layout and design andactually the copywriting editing
of the book. So there'ssomething good that came out of
this.
Man, this
Justin (03:58):
sounds like a good endeavor. I think I think you
still came out a winner on thisone.
Jeremy (04:02):
Yeah. I think I did come out a winner, but not on the
sales front. That, that productcost probably a lot of money.
That was a one of my productsthat is is in the negative for
sure to this day. Sold maybe a afew copies, and all these people
who I went to who had beenreally excited about it before I
made it, crickets.
And it was kind of, again, like,yeah, but we can find it all
online already. So, you know,this isn't worth the $17 to me
(04:25):
or whatever I was charging forit. So, yes. I've certainly been
there as well.
Justin (04:30):
I think the danger in this, whether it's a product or
a podcast, is when you go up tosomebody and you say, would you
buy this or would you listen tothis podcast, is people don't
wanna be rude. And so they oftenwill validate your idea because
they wanna feel encouraging. Youknow? This is probably more true
in North America than maybeother places. You know, this
(04:52):
idea that, oh, yeah.
I I would totally listen to thatshow. Oh, yeah. You should you
should do that. You shouldreally make that show. And you
feel like you're validating theidea because people are giving
you good feedback and respondingwell to it.
But as many of us have seen,sometimes there's a a big gulf
between what people say they'lldo and what they'll actually do.
Jeremy (05:15):
And I think that this actually applies both on the
show creation level. We can veryoften go out and do research and
say, hey. I'm thinking aboutdoing a show like this. Would
that be interesting to you? Andthen there's also the how do
people actually use and discoverpodcasts.
And so a lot of times, we hearall these best practices for,
oh, this is how you shouldmarket your show, but that
actually might be out of syncwith how listeners actually
(05:35):
discover shows or choose shows.And so we can end up doing
things that don't work for ourlisteners or don't work for
listeners in general. And thisis, like, such a ubiquitous
problem that somebody has, infact, written a book about this
and actually the way to getaround it. His name is Rob
Fitzpatrick. I know he's big inthe indie hacker community and
also the kind of creatorcommunity.
(05:56):
He's written several fantasticbooks now as well. But he wrote
a book called the mom test anumber of years ago. Have you
read this book, and can you kindof articulate the premise of it?
Justin (06:05):
Yeah. The the idea is that well, he called it the mom
test because if you present anidea to your mom, she'll almost
always lie. Like, she'll sayshe'll be like, hey, mom. I'm
thinking about doing this.
Sam Mullins (06:15):
She'll be like, yeah. You should do that.
Justin (06:17):
And then again, she'll be the one person to pity, buy,
or listen to your podcast. Thethe premise of the book is that
people will lie to you. And it'snot like they're being
malicious, but if you ask themtheir opinion on something, they
wanna be nice. And often, theymight even feel like it's the
truth. Like, oh, yeah.
I would totally listen to apodcast like that. But there's a
(06:39):
big discrepancy between whatthey'll say they'll do and what
people actually do. It's kind oflike, anything. It's like you
could ask somebody, in 2025, doyou think you'll buy some new
furniture? And people will belike, yeah.
I'll buy some furniture in 2025.But then when you actually see
their year, they don't followthrough on it. Whereas they
(06:59):
there could be some things hesay, you know, I would never
listen to a podcast like this.And then lo and behold, all
their friends start listening tothat podcast, and now they're
listening to that podcast. Sothe premise of the book is that
what people say and what theyactually do, there's a big
difference between those twothings.
There's ways of figuring outwhat people will actually do as
(07:22):
opposed to what just they'll saythey'll do.
Jeremy (07:24):
You know, I've read the book as well, and it's a
phenomenal read for anybody whois making anything that you are
trying to build an audiencearound. And, really, his answer
to this problem is just look atthe behavior. It's like you're a
anthropologist with a clipboardobserving consumers, and you're
like, what actions are theytaking without my interference?
One of the kinda core questionsthat he'll ask is like, okay.
(07:45):
The last time you experiencedthis problem, what did you do?
And they can very clearly tellyou what the actions that they
took rather than saying, whatwould you do if you were looking
to solve this problem in thefuture? There's been a bunch of
research. You know, we oftenhave different kind of marketing
strategies and ideas around whatwe should do to make our podcast
more discoverable. And there'sactually been a bunch of reports
and surveys designed to get atthe core of this problem and ask
(08:07):
listeners, how do you actuallyfind podcasts? How do you
actually choose what to listento?
And I think that if we canbetter understand, you know,
what listeners at least selfreport they do, how they find
new podcasts, we can align withthat a little bit better.
Justin (08:20):
Mhmm. Yeah. I like this. Let's look at some of this data.
Jeremy (08:24):
Okay. So the first thing that I just wanna lay out there
for some context here is itstruck me I was piecing through
a bunch of the data here. And sowe've got reports from Sounds
Profitable. The podcast host putone together, Westwood One and
Cumulus Podcast Network, SignalOne Insights, and then Riverside
actually did a big composite ofa bunch of this data. So people
can kinda go look up thoseresources.
(08:44):
We'll include those links in theshow notes as well. But it it
kinda became clear to me thatthere were two different
methodologies to some of thesesurveys that addressed people in
different places. And so what iskind of clear is that podcast
discovery happens in twoimportant ways. And the first,
which most of these surveysaddress, is, like, active
(09:05):
podcast discovery. And so it'slike people are seeking out a
show on a topic.
And so here you see a lot ofresponses of, like, they go to
search in their podcast appwhere they ask friends. But
there's also this other kind ofpodcast discovery, which is this
passive where it's just like youhear your friends talking about
it over months. You don't evenknow where you first heard about
it, but you eventually sign upand listen and become a
(09:26):
subscriber. And so before we getinto the data, a for a typical
show that you listen to, whichof these is more likely to be
the way that you came acrossthat show?
Justin (09:36):
The most likely is that it's just in the ether. Like, my
the people I hang out withonline are talking about the
show, and it keeps coming up. Itmight get reinforced with clips
I've seen. It might getreinforced with people
referencing it in conversation.And then eventually, I'll be
like, okay.
I'm gonna check this out.Sometimes it's like existing
(09:59):
shows I listen to will mentionit. I'll be like, oh, that
sounds good. I think that's howit manifests mostly for me.
Jeremy (10:06):
Yeah. I would say that earlier in my listening career
listening career as if this ismy full time job. Earlier in my
listening career, I was verymuch more an seeker out of
podcasts, and I think that wasactually when I didn't have an
existing base of shows that Ialready knew and liked. And so I
had space to fill, and so I waslooking for stuff to fill it.
And oftentimes that was alignedwith wanting to learn some
(10:28):
specific skills.
So I would go into an app andsearch for, okay, podcasts on
online business, and I wouldcome up with a list, and I'd
pick one out of that. Now itfeels like my space has been
taken up, and I don't tend tolisten to serial podcasts or
seasonal podcasts. And so justall the shows I listen to are
perpetual, and so there's onlyso much space for it. And we've
kinda talked about this in aprevious episode. So now I feel
(10:48):
like it really has to be thisoverwhelming kind of amount of
Yeah.
Presence of the show in my lifewhere it becomes unignorable for
the point where I'm like, okay.I'll reluctantly give it a try.
And so I think there's so manydifferent types of listeners,
and it's hard to say whether youand I are representative. I
think the casual podcastlistener may be more, like,
series driven. Like, I think atrue crime listener, you've
(11:10):
finished a series and you'relooking for the next one.
You're always seeking outsomething new. But there's
another type of listener whomight be more like us, where
it's like you've got your stableof shows, and, like, something
has to be kind of unignorable toforce its way in.
Justin (11:21):
I love that you brought up how this is very phase
driven. Like, I think for thoseof you out there listening right
now, you can remember the timewhen you first got your iPhone,
and everybody was talking about,like, what new apps are you
trying out. You might have evenbrowsed the App Store. Like,
when's the last time youactually browsed the App Store?
(11:41):
I think most of us are like,we've got enough apps.
We don't need anymore. We'regood. But clearly, there are
still people out there browsingfor new apps. You know? They are
in that phase of their phonelife.
And I think podcasting was thesame. You know? When I started
podcasting, I was looking at thetop charts in Apple Mhmm.
(12:02):
Downloading some of those shows,trying them out, and then
getting recommendations. Often,a network would be able to
recommend me multiple shows, andI would, like, listen to all the
shows in that network.
That's not happening anymore.Now I'm very much like you. I've
gotten my stable set of shows,and those are the ones I listen
to. And maybe every once inwhile, I'll try out something
new. But you have to earn yourspot, and there's not very much
(12:26):
room in my, list.
Jeremy (12:28):
So let's go into some of the data here. There's one
question from the podcast host'slistener survey. And I will, off
the bat, say that there are someinteresting things about the
respondents to these varioussurveys. And so podcast hosts,
their respondents tended to bepodcast creators that they were
asking about their listeningpreferences. And so this is a
skewed audience that is notnecessarily representative of
(12:50):
just pure listeners who are notalso creators.
But they asked the question, youwant to find a new podcast. What
do you do first? And the clearkind of winner here, 50% of
respondents said, I open up mypreferred podcasting app. And so
they go to the app and theysearch for something. And this
is true to me.
Like, if I'm searching for a newpodcast, I am basically a % of
the time. I don't go to Google.I don't ask people. I, like,
(13:11):
don't want opinions. I wanna gosee for myself.
I open up the app and lookthrough there. And then the next
responses were all kind ofsimilar in this, like, 10 to
13%. And so we got listened tolisten out for recommendations
on the podcast I already enjoy.Directly ask someone I know who
likes the same stuff. Use asearch engine such as Google or
Bing.
Ask on social media or in anonline community. And then 1%,
(13:32):
this is very surprising to me,was search on YouTube. But, I
mean, the way that that makessense to me is, like, I would
never go to YouTube to searchfor a podcast. And this being a
respondent base of podcastcreators, I would assume them to
be similar where they actuallywould not go to they're so
podcast savvy. They would go toa podcast app rather than
YouTube.
Justin (13:50):
This is where what people say and what people
actually do, I think, getsmuddy. Yeah. Because I think the
most podcast discovery onYouTube is just people opening
up YouTube, and suddenly,they're listening to a podcast.
Yes. So you really have to watchpeople.
And I think Yes. If you getanything out of this, I think
(14:13):
surveys are good. I want peopleto think about like, you're at a
friend's house. Just, like, askthem to open up their YouTube
app on their TV and just seewhat's getting recommended. And
that's generally the kind ofcontent they've been engaging
with.
And I think that's where a lotof discovery is actually
happening. So yeah. Activediscovery. Sure. I'll open up
(14:34):
the app, and I'll look for it.
There's passive discovery, whichI think we're gonna talk about.
And, yeah, I think that's awhole other ballgame.
Jeremy (14:42):
Yeah. And this is where it actually gets interesting
when we look at passivediscovery, and we see a lot of
contradictory advice to that.Know, if we look at this active
discovery, we see only 1% ofpeople search on YouTube. But
then we see a report from SignalHill and Cumulus. They show that
for weekly podcast consumers wholisten to podcasts regularly and
who listen to a new show in thepast six months, YouTube was
(15:03):
actually the top place that theyfirst encountered that show, and
that was 31% of people there.
Spotify was second with 24, andthen Apple Podcast was, third
with 12. Clearly, this questionis around platform. And so it's
like, what's the first platformyou engage with the show? It's
not necessarily where did youhear about the show. So it's
possible that other factors likeGoogle search could lead to
(15:23):
YouTube, word-of-mouth couldlead to YouTube.
There's all these other placesthat could lead somebody to
YouTube or Spotify or Apple, butpeople first engaged on YouTube.
So that's kind of interesting.And then we have the other
report from sounds profitable,and they asked, aside from
personal recommendations, whichof the following are the ways
that you find podcasts? YouTubewas far and away the the winner
here, the leader here with 52%,and then the next two were 27%
(15:48):
each for searching the Internetand Facebook and then a bunch of
other kind of places peoplediscover podcasts. So these
reports seem to suggest thatYouTube is the first place that
more passively people are firstengaging with or encountering
podcasts.
Justin (16:00):
One thought that just came up is I can you can already
see the problem with thesesurveys, and let me explain why.
This assumes that all podcastdiscovery is kind of the same.
It's like everybody is just likewaking up every day, and there's
a a equal probability, equallikelihood, equal context that
(16:23):
will lead someone to find a newshow. But we all know that
humans don't behave in that way.Let me give you an example.
And this is why actuallyinterviewing people about their
real behavior is important. SoI'm gonna go through a a fake
interview with you. Hey. Whatpodcast did you just listen to?
(16:46):
Well, oh, I I I checked out thisseries that I'd heard about
before.
And okay. Well, what precededthat? Like, why were you looking
for a podcast in the firstplace? Oh, well, I've got a
twenty hour road trip coming up,and I decided to find, you know,
twenty hours worth of material Icould listen to while I'm on
this road trip. Okay.
(17:07):
So now, this gives you waybetter information than what you
would have gotten from thissurvey. So this survey is saying
YouTube, browsing podcast appsor directories, asking for
friends' recommendations. Butwhat's more interesting to me is
what's the context for all this?Yeah. And you don't get context
(17:29):
from these kind of generalsurvey responses.
The context is important becauseif it's true that a sizable
number of people, the time thatthey actually seek out new shows
is when they're about to go on aroad trip, then as a marketer,
that's actually helpfulinformation. Because then you
(17:50):
can target that time, that pointin their life, and say, best
podcast to download before yougo on a road trip. That's just
very clear to me as I'm lookingat all this stuff. For the
listener, how useful is thisinformation really gonna be? I I
don't know.
Like, what are you gonna do?Become more visible in your in
the podcasting apps? Sure. Youshould do that. But I think
(18:12):
what's gonna be more effectiveis targeting this very specific
sequence of events or this veryspecific trigger that happens in
someone's life that causes themto seek out a new show.
Jeremy (18:24):
Now there are a couple of rebuttals that I'll offer to
that. I agree with you entirelyon that point, but I think it is
also worthwhile to look at someof these things and say, okay.
These are the ways thatlisteners report finding new
podcasts. And I think that thereare some questions that are
actually framed quite well. Andso I actually like this one from
the podcast host.
They ask, think about the lastpodcast you listened to. How did
(18:47):
you discover it? And Mhmm.Again, it could be and it likely
is for many shows that there area bunch of factors where, you
know, you might not be able totrace it back to one person
because five different peopleare telling you about it. You
see it on social media.
You see the clips. It's like,it's just everywhere. It's just
in the ether. But I think we canlook at some of these lists and
say, have I done everything Ican to optimize to the degree
that I'm able to for each ofthese things? And especially if
(19:09):
there are things that I can doonce, and then I don't need to
think about it again.
And so we can see from some ofthese things that people do
report finding podcasts bysearch in both Google and in
podcast apps. And so then we canask ourselves, okay. Is there a
keyword? Like, maybe I shouldask my audience because I can
assume that a significantpercentage of them will search
(19:30):
for podcasts like mine, and Ican start to do some
interviewing and say, you know,when you discovered my podcast,
like, what kind of keywordsearch terms did you put in? And
we can say, oh, my show doesn'tcome up for any of those because
I don't have it in my title.
I don't have it in mydescription. I don't use it in
my episode titles. Listeners aretelling us this is how we're
doing it, and then we can say,okay. Well, am I doing
everything I can to bediscoverable by them?
Justin (19:52):
I'll push back just a little bit. Alright. And say,
like, browsing a podcast appdirectory or chart. Yeah. That
information is useless unlessyou understand what was the
underlying motivation andtrigger, Because it's gonna be
highly dependent on what's goingon in their life.
If you dig a little bit deeperand you find out, oh, most of my
(20:16):
listeners, new listeners thatcome around, they've just had a
baby. Well, that's the context.And then what do they do next?
Oh, then they search podcastapps for these keywords. Okay.
Then that's helpful informationbecause we've got the initial
context or trigger, and then wegot what they did about it. But
(20:36):
your audience, for example,might not follow any of these.
So there's always thispropensity for people to look at
survey results and go, okay.Browse podcast app, direct your
chart. That I gotta that's thenumber one thing I gotta do.
And it's like, well, no. No. No.No. You gotta figure out how
this works for your audience.
Here's another one. Like I said,the context was I was about to
(21:00):
go on a road trip. What did youdo next? Well, they might say, I
also browsed a podcast app orwhatever. But instead of
searching for a keyword, I wasjust looking for playlists on
Spotify Mhmm.
Where I was just browsing thetop 10. You know? So context,
and then what was their specificbehavior, in this case, in the
(21:22):
podcast app directory orwhatever. That's the nuance I
think I'd like to add on here. Ithink it's just so easy in
marketing.
What I see people you know,we'll have a discussion like
this, and then people willimmediately go, okay. Well, my
number one thing is I've gottapost all my stuff on social
media because social media postby the podcast creator is number
two. You gotta know more. Yougotta know more about what
(21:45):
actually works for youraudience. And the only way
you're gonna do that is byobserving, by interviewing, and
getting more of that context.
Jeremy (21:54):
Social media was actually 71% in the headliner,
report that they put together.
Justin (21:59):
That's right. So we've
Jeremy (22:01):
also got some variants.
Justin (22:02):
Data too. So
Jeremy (22:04):
Yeah. And I think that that's an interesting point here
that, you know, all of theseplatforms, they're they're
pulling from survey pools ofdifferent people that we don't
really know who these peopleare. I would put a lot of stock
in that sounds profitable justbecause they have, you know,
this history of methodology ofdoing research with Tom Webster
and everything that he's done atEdison. And so, like, I trust
their data quite a bit. And theyalso have, I think, from what I
(22:25):
saw, the largest survey pool ofpeople, that they did in their
survey, which actually leadsinto this other, you know,
interesting point here aroundthis data is that a lot of times
these discovery channels getchunked out in interesting ways
that I think actually could beconsolidated.
And so in sounds profitables,they mentioned here in the
(22:46):
question, aside from personalrecommendations, which of the
following are the ways you findpodcasts? And so YouTube was
number one at 52%, but Icouldn't find it in this report.
But Riverside's, I believe theymentioned and sounds profitable,
and there's elsewhere mentionsthat YouTube was number two to
word-of-mouth andrecommendations. And this
actually does seem to be aconsistent theme with all of
(23:07):
these reports is if you start toadd up recommendations from
people online, recommendationsfrom people offline, family,
friends, colleagues, socialmedia posts from whose people
who aren't the creator. Itconsistently is that people
talking about the show is themost common way that people
report discovering shows.
And this to me feels very true.Like, it's in the ether. People
are talking about it, andeventually it breaks through.
Justin (23:29):
Yeah. I think general survey results are just going to
be predisposed to certainthings. So if this is just a
general audience and YouTube isthe number one search thing,
it's like, well, what are theysearching for? Like, there's
just a specific like, are theysearching for celebrities? It's
(23:49):
like, oh, I I love Tim Ferriss.
I'm gonna see if Tim Ferriss hasa podcast. And they search Tim
Ferriss, it comes up. It's like,okay, well, that's useful
information for Tim Ferriss. Isthat information for Joe or Jane
podcaster that has their ownbranded show? Maybe not.
We're getting very generalizedresults here that just Mhmm. Had
(24:12):
applied to your specificsituation. Any kind of
mainstream survey, mainstreamresponse is going to be
directionally correct. But I Ijust I would love to see way
more data. Like, if I couldactually talk to these
respondents and say, okay,YouTube, talk to me about that.
What does that mean? And to hearthe actual story of Mhmm. What
(24:35):
they were doing and whatinfluenced it, that's the meaty
that's the meat. You know?That's what we want.
That's the whole point of thebook. The mom test is we need to
get into those details.
Jeremy (24:48):
Yeah. You know, there's an interesting tie in here
talking about word-of-mouth. SoRob Fitzpatrick, author of the
mom test, he has another bookcalled write useful books. And
the whole premise of the book isbasically that the only way that
books grow is that people talkabout them. And I think that
podcasting is exactly the sameway, and so it doesn't surprise
me at all.
And so he shares graphs of,like, New York Times
bestsellers, usually books thatare published with a big
(25:11):
publisher. They get a big youknow, they game the system.
They'll sell a bunch of books,and then the charts all drop off
a cliff, and they basicallynever sell any books again. And
the only books that sell on anongoing basis are those that
people talk about. And so youneed to get it out to your seed
audience, that first, like, 500people.
And then if the show isrecommendable, people will talk
about it. And so I think thatthis is something where we've
(25:31):
talked about this a lot on thisshow is, like, there are all
these marketing tactics andstrategies, but they have to be
paired with this show that isdistinctive and unique and
memorable and something thatpeople can't easily substitute
for something else. Like, thisis the foundation of a show that
is going to do well with all ofthese discovery platforms.
Justin (25:50):
And this is hard to do. Like, I I've gotten sent early
access copies of books. And Ithink the only one that I
recommend frequently is, like,Atomic Habits by James Clear and
Life Profitability by AddiePinaar. And the other books I
got, like, they were perfectlywell written, whatever, but they
(26:13):
weren't memorable. I justthey're not getting discussed.
So this is not easy No. Whatwe're suggesting here. The
reason I'm kind of fired upright now is I think getting
some of this information willactually give you the clues to
Yes. Not only marketing the showproperly, but producing the kind
of show that gets talked about.
Jeremy (26:34):
So so far, we've kind of talked about some of the data on
how listeners say they discovershows. A lot of these surveys
actually also ask listenersabout why do you stop listening
to shows. And I think that thisis also again, everything needs
to be taken with a grain ofsalt, but it is interesting. We
don't often get to talk to ourlisteners. And, you know, we
actually did a survey in seasonone.
We asked our listeners, like,why don't you listen? Why did
(26:54):
you stop listening? And we gotsome interesting stuff there. So
you can go back and listen tothat episode if you're curious.
But we don't typically, ascreators, get to talk to the
people who opt out, who churn,and understand why that might
be.
And so the first one is from thepodcast host, and they have this
question, when listening to anew show, how long do you give
it to hook you in before yougive up on it? And, again, for
(27:15):
context, this is podcastcreators that they're serving,
and so I imagine this to beactually overly generous
compared to a traditionallistener who may not know how
much work goes into creating ashow. And so what's interesting
here is that 57% of people givea show fifteen minutes or less
to win them over and decide. Andso 40% of people said up to
(27:35):
fifteen minutes, and 17% ofpeople said five minutes or
less. The next, kinda closestwas one full episode, 29%.
Is this accurate to yourexperience with the show? How
often how long do you give ashow before you're like, nah.
This isn't doing it for me.
Justin (27:50):
I mean, if I subscribe to a show, usually what happens
then it starts showing up in myPocket Cast. I'll filter by new
episodes. That's kinda like mycue. And so I'll see the show a
few times. Honestly, sometimesit's just like, I'll see, like,
five to 10 episodes roll by.
And every once in a while, like,okay. I'm gonna give this a go.
(28:12):
And they'll listen to, no, no,no, no, archive. And then I'll
give it a shot the next timethey have an episode. So it's
there.
You know, it's on the frontdoorstep. But whether I'm gonna
actually, you know, open up thedoor and let it in is another
question.
Jeremy (28:29):
I think I'm a harsh listener. I think I listen to so
many shows and have such a broadexposure to podcasting in
general that I think I am veryquick. Like, I recognize the
signs of a show that's not gonnabe worth my time. I know that
there's so much good stuff outthere that, like, the first five
or ten minutes don't feel likeit's gonna get me there if I
don't feel confident that thisis going to pay off. And so I
(28:52):
think about this all the time.
Jerry Seinfeld has this analogywhere as a comedian, the
audience has to believe that,like, essentially, you're the
pilot of the plane. The audienceis on the plane. They have to
have confidence that you'regonna have the ability to land
the plane, that you're going tobe able to make this experience
pay off for them. Mhmm. And sothat I think is is super
important to podcasters as well.
And this was something that Iwas doing the audit of a client
(29:13):
show last year, and it kindajumped out at me before I
actually heard the JerrySeinfeld analogy. But I kind of
coined it as, like, the audienceneeds to feel like they're in
good hands. And I I thought ofit as, like, you're a passenger
and you're driving withsomebody. And there's we've all
had that experience where you'redriving with somebody who just
feels kinda reckless or justunsafe. Maybe they're, like, on
their phone.
Maybe they're talking to you.Yeah. And you're just, like,
gripping the handle in the carand just like, okay. Like, I
(29:35):
hope this is gonna turn outalright. And I feel that a lot
of time with podcasts where Idon't feel like the host knows
where this is going.
I don't feel like it's gonna payoff. Whereas there's other shows
from the minute you click play,you're just like, oh, this is
gonna be good. And you can kindajust, like, sit back and enjoy
the ride because Mhmm. The hosthas given you all these cues
that, like, oh, they're settingthis up in a way that, you know,
I know this is gonna lead tosome kind of payoff in the end.
Justin (29:58):
I think the listening mode obviously matters a lot
here. Like, if you're justsitting around your house and
you're about to wash the dishes,you've got a little bit more
time to be like, okay. What showdo I wanna listen to? And you're
like, try this one. No.
But there's a big differencebetween that and getting in your
car in the morning. You've gottaget to work by 08:30. And you're
(30:19):
just like, okay. What am I gonnalisten to? I gotta make a quick
decision, and then I'm lockedin.
So it's like, click. And thenthis show now has my attention
for thirty minutes because
Jeremy (30:28):
Yeah.
Justin (30:28):
That's it. You know? So it is interesting to know which
mode your listeners are in orwhich modes they are in most
often because, that'll give youa better chance. And then that's
where things like the chartsmight actually matter. So I get
in my car.
What am I gonna listen to?Whatever gets recommended to me
by the Spotify algorithm,whatever's top of charts in
(30:50):
Apple Podcasts, I trust itbecause the popularity has
indicated it's trustworthy. NowI'll click play. Right? So,
yeah, different modes lead todifferent kind of how much time
you'll give a show.
Jeremy (31:02):
So the next kind of piece of data here that is
actually really interesting fromSounds Profitable. So they asked
basically two versions or twosimilar questions, which the
first is think of a podcast thatused to be a part of your
regular listening routine, butyou stopped listening to. Why
did you stop listening? And thenthe second question was why
haven't you listened to podcastsin general recently? And so this
is actually a kind ofinteresting thing where I think
(31:24):
if you are a podcast creator andprobably consumer, if you have
an identity around that, Icannot think of a scenario in
which I would stop listening topodcasts.
So I assume everybody's likethat. But, actually, there are
two factors at play here. Peoplewill stop listening to one show,
and people will stop listeningto podcasts in favor of probably
other media. So maybe they'rewatching more YouTube videos.
(31:44):
Maybe they're watching moreNetflix.
Maybe they're getting away fromdigital stuff and going to
books. And so on the show sideof things, the number one reason
was they lost interest in theshow, and the number two thing
was that they lost interest inthe topic. So 25% of people lost
interest in the show. 22% ofpeople lost interest in the
topic. And we've talked aboutthis idea of churn before, and
it's not always that the show isbad.
(32:06):
It's that people are naturallyand if this data is indicative,
it's like 25% of people are justgoing to lose interest in your
show regardless of what you do.And what's more, twenty two
percent of people will loseinterest in your topic entirely.
And I think that this is such aninteresting kind of data point
just to keep in the back of ourminds. Like, there is nothing we
can do to keep everybodyengaged. And so we do constantly
(32:27):
need to be getting in front ofnew people because Mhmm.
There's always gonna be thatkinda leaky bucket.
Justin (32:32):
And I think this goes back to something else we've
said, which is every showdoesn't have to last forever.
Every show doesn't have to beevery week. I think doing
seasons is underrated. I thinkdoing limited run series is
underrated. I think also ifyou've been doing a podcast for
three or four years, it's fineto retire.
You know? It's okay. And it'snothing personal. Like, it's
just Yeah. You know?
(32:53):
Just think about your ownconsumption habits. Like, many
books have you started and notfinished? How many TV shows have
you started and not finished?How many people watch Breaking
Bad but didn't watch Better CallSaul? Like, it's nothing against
you.
It's just, of course, you wantthat attention, but that
attention is limited. It's likeone of the most finite resources
(33:14):
on the planet.
Jeremy (33:15):
Yeah. And I think the other thing here, people who
cited, that they stoppedlistening to shows entirely, 41%
of people said not enough freetime. And this was something
that we heard in our listenersurvey when we asked people why
they stopped listening. Time wasthe ultimate. It was the the big
one here, and we can see that isat play here as well for
podcasting as a medium as well.
And so there's kind of all theseforces that, like, no matter
(33:36):
what we do as creators, I thinkit's worth trying to make a show
that is unmissable, unignorable.Like, I think if you can create
a show like that, like, you'regonna get more people in, and
you're going to get moreword-of-mouth, and you're gonna
get more people sticking around.Mhmm. But even with that,
there's gonna be people who arechurning, and there are a few
more successful shows than ThisAmerican Life. I probably
listened to hundreds of episodesearly on, and then now I've gone
(33:58):
almost ten years.
I listened to my first episodein seven years, last week, and I
was like, god. This is a greatshow. But it's still just I'm
not in that phase of lifeanymore, and maybe I'll come
back to it five years from now.But, you know, for right now, it
just isn't the thing that I'mreaching for on a regular basis.
Justin (34:13):
Yeah. Like, you know where I go back to those classic
shows like Radio Lab and ThisAmerican Life is when we're on a
family road trip because theydon't wanna listen to the
podcast that I listen toregularly. They wanna listen to
it's gotta be a little bit moreopen, more storytelling. And so,
you know, that's a mode. There'sa job to be done there.
Like, what are the series thatwe should bring in for this
(34:36):
drive that everyone will enjoy?
Jeremy (34:39):
So we started off the episode talking about, you know,
product ideas that we had kindacome up with and, you know,
maybe influenced the publicopinion and then built those
things to, unfortunate results.
Justin (34:50):
Mhmm.
Jeremy (34:51):
On the podcast side of things as well, we kind of
hinted that that you can createa show that is basically, like,
asking people like, hey. Itseems like there's an interest
in this. Like, would you dowould you listen to a show if I
create it this way? And it couldbe creating a new show or it
could be making changes withyour existing show. And I think
that this brings up this tensionin doing creative work where one
of the most common piece ofadvice is ask your audience,
(35:13):
and, like, they'll tell you whatto create.
Mhmm. But there's this otherside that is your vision and
your intuition as the creator.
Justin (35:19):
You know, it's funny. Like, bands and artists often
will say, like, we don't ask ourfans for what they want. And
also, like, we don't, like, tryto think about what our fans
would like. I don't know ifthat's always true. I think,
like, especially bands that havemade it, they know through
experience what kinds of songsget people fired up.
They can see it. They perform itlive. It's like, wow. That one
(35:42):
just really took off. That'swhat a hit is.
And you develop this intuitivesense for making hits. You know?
Making hits that your fans willlike. And that's kind of how I
think about it. Like, you haveto know your audience.
You have to observe them. Youhave to be, I think, also tapped
(36:04):
in. While we are not normalpodcast listeners, like none of
the people listening to the showare a normal podcast listener.
Jeremy (36:12):
Yeah.
Justin (36:13):
At the same time, I think we can be introspective
about our own modes when itcomes to listening. And for
example, I think that thatobservation that, oh, my family
listens to podcasts before along road trip. And I've just
observed that online, likepeople saying, hey, I'm about to
drive from DC to wherever. Ineed podcast recommendations. So
(36:36):
I think, you know, making a showaround road trips, like, having
that as your kind of basis, Ithink is actually a good kind of
idea.
And Mhmm. You might be able toexecute on that and actually
match up with that demand oflike, oh, hey, you're doing a
road trip? Well, we have, like,great long form stories that are
(36:59):
two hours long, perfect for roadtrips, good for the whole
family. Why don't you give it atry? You know?
I think that's kind of how I'dbe thinking about all this
stuff.
Jeremy (37:09):
To your point about, like, bands, you just soak in
the space long enough, and youget enough feedback on what
works and what doesn't. And Ithink part of this is
understanding, like, creatingyour own things and getting
feedback on that, but then beinga super consumer of other
content in general and in yourspace, this always is a huge red
flag for me. I've had so manyclients throughout the years who
(37:31):
they'll come to me. They'llwanna start a podcast and say,
well, I don't listen topodcasts. And they'll they'll
always say it, like, a littlebit like they know, like, that's
probably not the right thing.
Yeah. And it is so hard to makea show worth listening to if you
don't know what makes the mediumwork. And I think that this is
just one of those things wherethe people who have success in a
genre or in a medium, they aresuper consumers of that thing.
(37:53):
And it might not be that theyare currently super consumers of
that thing. I've heard ofcertain musicians who basically,
they consume the whole canon ofwork in their chosen genre.
And then once they startedcreating it, they started
listening to other stuff.Because they're like, I've
already listened to it already.I know this in my bones, and I'm
gonna start creating stuff. Andnow I wanna bring in outside
influences. And so they've donethe work beforehand to, like,
(38:15):
know what works, know thedynamics that are at play, know
all the genre conventions.
And so I think for myself, I donot create content that people
are asking for because I want itto be, like, fresh and original.
And if somebody's asking forsomething, you know that there
are tons of other creators whoare, like, looking up on Google,
like, okay. What's trending inGoogle right now? I'm gonna
create content around that. Youend up with these SEO optimized
(38:37):
posts that are just boring andbland and all the same.
And so I wanna see what comesbubbling up for me, but I can
only do that because I've spentalmost a decade spending all of
my time in the podcasting world.And so, like, anything that I
find interesting is probablygonna be interesting to other
people. Because if it'sinteresting to me after ten
years and, like, consumingeverything, like, oh, this must
be a somewhat original, I hope,idea. And so I think, like, that
(38:59):
is the work that needs to bedone really early on is just,
like, being in your space, beingan active participant of the
community, consuming yourcompetitor shows, consuming
other shows from other nichesand genres, and then, like,
letting that bubble up throughyou and, like, letting yourself
act as the filter to createsomething original.
Justin (39:14):
Yeah. I do think listener responses and listener
requests can be helpful becausethey are your listeners. So they
are already in motion. And so ifthey're saying, oh, man. I I
listened to the last episode,and they're all, like, wondering
the same things, like, they havethe same follow-up questions, I
think those can be great to acton.
But it all has to be throughyour exactly what you said, your
(39:38):
filter. You have to be theexpert. You have to be the one
that can kinda put their fingerup in the air and get the
weather. You know? It's like,oh, yeah.
The wind's blowing this way.That's your job as the host.
Jeremy (39:49):
We've talked about some of the shortcomings of, you
know, these big broad surveyswhere we don't know what the
audience is. And we've alsomentioned, you know, several
times throughout, these twoseasons of the show, the value
of talking with your listeners,serving your own listeners. What
would you recommend as somebodywho is, like, wanting to
understand you maybe articulatedthis a little bit already. But
for somebody who's, curiousabout this data, curious about
knowing more about how maybetheir listeners discover shows,
(40:11):
what are the next steps forthem?
Justin (40:13):
I mean, I would if you're hanging out online with
people, you can observe youknow? So if you're in a
subreddit and people they mightnot be talking about podcasts,
but they might just be talkingabout questions they're
interested in, things thatthey're pursuing, things that
they're seeking out. If you'reat a conference talking to
people, if you're at an event ora meetup, just saying, hey,
(40:34):
like, even asking people, like,if they're in your audience,
hey, do you listen to podcasts?Oh, can you tell me, like,
what's the last podcast youstarted listening to? Oh,
interesting.
How'd you find out about that?Oh, cool. Well, what kind of
preceded that? Was thereanything that was happening at
the same time that triggeredthis? Or what what was going on
there?
And once you've done this enoughtimes, you really do start to
(40:58):
develop a sense. Like you said,you're kind of soaking in it.
And as you soak in it, youfinally you get these insights
that come bubbling to the topand go, oh, you know what? I
think people like this want ashow like this. People like this
do things like this.
And you can use those insightsto, like I said, produce and
(41:19):
structure a show that has kindof the right elements and the
right hooks. And then you canuse that same insight to market
the show. And this is a skillthat takes some time to develop.
You have to learn how to dothis. Because most people just
kind of passively you know, it'slike most people don't read all
(41:40):
the other YouTube comments on avideo.
Read all the comments. You know?Yeah. Get it really soak in,
like, what's the sentiment here?You know?
Jeremy (41:50):
Yeah. I think the thing that I would add to that is just
have as many calls or in personconversations with listeners as
possible. The value is notusually in what any one person
says. It's the feelings andintuitions and hunches that you
get after talking with 25 or 50people. And these can be
existing members of youraudience, or they can be
existing members of your targetaudience.
(42:12):
And so for anybody, like, thisis actually a even better type
of person to go after and talkto is think about, like, okay.
This person is not a listener tomy show, but they should be.
Like, I'm creating a show thatthey should be interested in. I
just wanna get to know moreabout them. And I'm not gonna be
pitching my show here.
I'm just trying to understandwhat content do they listen to?
How do they decide on podcastversus YouTube versus anything
else? What do they get out ofthese different mediums? And,
(42:34):
like, what shows do they listento or what shows do they watch?
And you start to piece togetherthese things as you just, like,
have these conversations, andyou're trying to find some
insights.
But over time, you justknowledge just kinds of becomes
a part of you where you're justlike, oh, I can actually see the
thread now looking back over theprevious six months. So there
are all these conversations.It's just clear to me where the
(42:54):
space is going and what peopleare wanting, and they can't even
put their finger on what theywant. They just know that this
thing, I wish there wassomething like this. And then
you start to understand, I seewhere I fit into this.
But the only way to get there isactually having the
conversations and then allowingthat to kind of stew.
Justin (43:09):
The way you could do this in your show is just say,
hey, friends. I want I'm tryingto talk to five of my listeners
this month. There is a link tobook a call with me in the show
notes. We'll do a quick Zoomcall. It will be so valuable for
me.
I'm excited to meet some of you.You know, lot of you have been
listening to me for a long time.Like, invite them that way, and
(43:31):
that call to action might beenough to get three or four
people to book a call with you,and then you can have these
great conversations. I've alsoseen people do this where they
have a separate feed that's justconversations with their fans.
Conan O'Brien did this kind offamously in their own feed.
Like, he he would get his fansto call in. And so that's like
(43:52):
customer research or listenerresearch, but it's also content.
So, yeah, two ideas on how Ithink you could actually
implement that.
Jeremy (44:00):
Alright. So if you are curious in digging into more of
the data that we cited and basedthis episode around, you can
find all the links to thevarious reports in the show
notes. And if you would like togo through the full 2024 podcast
marketing trends report, you canfind that at
podcastmarketingtrends.com. Andother than that, we will see you
next time.
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