February 19, 2025 • 39 mins
Will discovery algorithms actually grow your show for you?
Since the dawn of podcasting, creators have been clamoring for better discoverability. And now, thanks to YouTube & Spotfiy’s algorithms, better discovery might be here.
But will it actually be the marketing cure-all many creators hope it will be? Or might it actually make it harder to grow? Or perhaps, algorithmic discovery will change the medium into something else entirely…
One way or another, we’re about to find out. Here’s how to prepare for it.
📊 What did you think of this episode? Click to cast your vote:
🤩 Nailed It!
🙂 Solid
🥱 Meh
😒 Do better
⭐️ Take our 2-minute podcast marketing audit to instantly identify the marketing problems keeping you from growth: https://go.podcastmarketingacademy.com/audit-pmte-sn ⭐️
Resources
Subscribe to Podcast Marketing Trends Explained
Check out the Podcast Marketing Trends 2024 Report
Subscribe to the Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter
Try Transistor.fm for free for 14 days
✍️ Leave your feedback for the show: http://podcastmarketingtrends.com/feedback
About Podcast Marketing Trends Explained
Podcast Marketing Trends Explained is a podcast about data-driven podcast marketing, growth, and monetization. In every episode, we take a peek under the hood of one data point from the Podcast Marketing Trends Report and dig into what it can tell us about how to market our shows better, and grow them faster.
On the show, we'll explore podcast marketing strategies, growth tactics, podcast listener psychology, how to create a better podcast, how to use a podcast to market your products and services and grow your business, and broader marketing trends to help you grow your audience and stay ahead of the competition.
The show is hosted by Jeremy Enns from Podcast Marketing Academy and the Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter, and Justin Jackson from podcast hosting platform Transistor.fm.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin (00:01):
You have to understand: this is the way the game is
played. And if you don't likethat game, you might not wanna
play.
Jeremy (00:08):
All the things that work to grow Podcast Now will
continue to work. And even thinkabout some of the downsides of
algorithms. You could be shadowbanned. You could do all these
things.
Justin (00:15):
In this new ecosystem, podcasters actually do have to
be very creative. And here'swhy...
Jeremy (00:25):
So basically, since as long as podcasting has been
around, people have beenclamoring for one thing and one
thing only, which is betterdiscoverability. People look at
YouTube and TikTok and they seethe just incredible audience
numbers that people are pilingup and they think that, oh,
there's no algorithm inpodcasting. And if we had an
algorithm that would just solveall of my marketing problems, I
(00:47):
would soon have a massiveaudience just like my favorite
YouTubers. And, now it seemslike we actually might be moving
into the algorithmically drivenera of podcasting. And I'm
wondering if you have thoughtson whether this is the kind of
cure all that a lot of peopleseem to think it is.
Justin (01:03):
Well, I don't think it's gonna be the cure all. I've
previously described gettingthat algorithmic discovery like
doing a deal with the devil, Andthat might be overstated. I
think there are opportunitiesfor podcasters in this space.
There's been some interestingresearch that's come out in the
past year about how peoplereally discover new shows that I
(01:24):
think will be interesting tothink about. So, yes, there will
be some opportunities, but withsome caveats.
Jeremy (01:32):
Alright. So let's maybe start off and dig into some of
the updates that are happeningin the podcast ecosystem. And so
these are mainly driven by twoof the big players, YouTube and
Spotify, who have been makingsome big moves in the past
couple of years. But YouTube, Iknow, has, like, really come out
in the past twelve months aswe're recording this now and has
actually taken the lead inpodcast listenership.
Justin (01:52):
That's right. So and now Edison and some of these other
research institutions arestarting to talk about podcast
consumption as opposed to justlistening or watching,
especially because in somecases, these, modalities are
fluid. So if you listen onYouTube music, I don't know if
you've checked that out yet, Youcan switch between video and
(02:12):
audio mode. Same with, Spotify.You can switch between video and
audio mode.
Many consumers don't actuallylike, the distinction isn't that
important to them. It's reallyimportant in podcasting for
economic reasons. A lot ofadvertising platforms want those
dynamically inserted ads in theaudio version. But, yes, as of
(02:36):
October 2024, '30 '1 percent ofweekly podcast consumption aged
13 and up prefer YouTube forpodcast listening surpassing
Spotify at 27% and ApplePodcasts at 15%. And, again,
that's from Edison Research.
This is even more pronounced foryounger audiences. Edison found
(02:58):
that 84% of Gen z monthlypodcast consumers engage with
podcasts that include video.
Jeremy (03:06):
It's crazy because I know when I first got into
podcasting back in 2015 or so,and I know you've got in
probably a little bit earlierthan that as well. Like, just
Apple was the basically, theonly show in town almost. They
might have accounted for what,80% of listenership, and now
they're down to 15. AndYouTube's kinda come out of
nowhere in the past few yearsand taken the lead
Justin (03:24):
here. Yeah. And some of this is just the fact that
YouTube has been not reportedpreviously. Joe Rogan's had his
clips on YouTube forever. Soit's not like this is new.
Apple previously did have kindof more of a balanced audio and
video component. You mightremember old shows like Dig
Nation and This Week in Techwith Leo LaPorte. As soon as
(03:47):
YouTube became a viabledistribution platform, all those
other shows were on YouTube. Itjust wasn't being reported as
podcasting. So now it's beingreported.
The YouTube audience is so big.My guess is that it's actually
been the biggest podcast, quote,unquote, consumption platform
for a long time. It's just nowwe're all paying attention
(04:08):
because YouTube has officiallyadopted it. It's in the YouTube
UI. If you open it up, you'llnotice a bunch of tabs at the
top, and podcasts is somethingthey're actively promoting as a
genre.
Jeremy (04:21):
What's interesting is, like, we've got YouTube on the
one side where they when youthink of algorithms, you at
least I think of TikTok andYouTube as the probably most
sophisticated algorithms outthere for content discovery. But
Yeah. Then we've got Spotify.It's a little bit interesting
that YouTube is trying to, like,move into Spotify's turf
bringing in audio. Spotify istrying to move into YouTube's
turf really emphasizing video.
And Spotify has more subtly andquietly been introducing more
(04:44):
algorithmically driven discoveryin their platform. I use Spotify
to listen to music. I actually,for the first time last week,
listened to an audiobook onSpotify, which I never had
before. For some reason, I don'twant to listen to podcasts on
Spotify. I use, an app calledSnipd, which I love because you
can tap the headphones and itsaves snips and it transcribes
them and syncs them to Notion.
(05:05):
Spotify doesn't do that. Butsomehow, I also don't just want
to let Spotify monopolize all mycontent consumption. So I'm
resisting. But they do a sneakygood job of surfacing shows on
the home screen or in the listennext. And that's opening up all
kinds of interestingopportunities for podcasters as
well, including, like, some ofthe data that they're sharing on
Discovery, which we're actuallygonna do a whole episode on
(05:27):
that.
But I'm curious, like, have youlistened to podcasts on Spotify?
What's your experience been withthat kind of UI?
Justin (05:33):
Pocket Casts is my podcast listening app. As I walk
home from work, I'm listening topodcasts. As soon as I get home,
I often will turn on YouTube.And often, I'm watching a
podcast on there. I think whereSpotify doesn't quite have the
same advantage as YouTube isthis connected TV channel.
(05:54):
It you can watch your stuff onSpotify on a connected TV, but
YouTube just has that icon on myApple TV that I go to. I have
listened to some podcasts andwatched some podcasts on
Spotify, especially when theywere doing a lot of exclusives.
They've introduced clips, so youcan get clips in Spotify that
(06:15):
are basically promoting shows.I'm starting to see those more.
But, yeah, for me, it might beless so because Apple Music is
my music listening app.
Pocket cast is my podcastlistening app. And then I go
home
Charles Duhigg (06:28):
Mhmm.
Justin (06:28):
And I watch YouTube. I'm also in a different generation,
so I grew up having a dedicatedpodcasting app. So I don't know.
It it hasn't really affected me,but I see it in other people.
You know, when I'm on thechairlift and I ask people what
podcast they're listening to,they say they're listening in
Spotify or I found this show inSpotify.
So it's clearly having aneffect.
Jeremy (06:51):
Yeah. And I think, like, some of the interesting things
with transcripts that are beingprocessed behind the scenes and
then recommending if you go toan actual episode page of a
podcast, you're listening tothat episode, they'll recommend
other episodes or other shows atthe bottom of the screen that
are related to the one thatyou're listening to. And
oftentimes, you look at thetitles and you're like, how are
they pulling this in? Because mytitle doesn't say anything about
(07:12):
these things and yet they doseem relevant. And so that's an
interesting little additionthere as well where I think
there are going to be moreopportunities for podcasters to
leverage Spotify discovery suchas you can leverage it and
engineer that.
Obviously, there's a lot of Ithink we're gonna talk about
this, the power that theplatform has in an algorithmic,
majoring world. But I think thelast thing we just need to talk
(07:32):
about in terms of context hereis when when we think of
YouTube, we immediately thinkvideos. And that's obviously a
big part of what podcasts arenow considered. Spotify is
bringing videos in, but bothYouTube, like, they're now
bringing audio only component.Spotify is still using
algorithms on their audio onlycontent.
So this is not really aconversation about video
podcasting in particular. It'sjust happens to be that both
(07:54):
platforms do both audio andvideo and use algorithms to
surface content.
Justin (07:59):
Yeah. Although, again, we gotta talk about Marshall
McLuhan. The medium is themessage. I think video does lend
itself to algorithmicallydistributed content because it's
so addictive. I go on toFacebook to look at something on
marketplace, and pretty soon I'mlooking at dozens of old TV
clips from, you know, the thenineties.
(08:20):
It it just draws you in, Ithink, differently than audio.
There have been audio clip appsin the past. I don't know if you
remember. There was one called Ithink it was called Swift or
something like that where, theywould you could listen to ten
second clips and, like, scrollthrough just like TikTok. It
(08:41):
doesn't have the same effect.
And in fact, this is kind ofwhat we like about podcasting is
that it's not this addictivething. I think the medium is the
message. The reason thatalgorithmic often equals video
is because video does have thiskind of, like, addictive
(09:01):
character.
Jeremy (09:02):
Yeah. I would agree with that. I think that, yeah,
Podcasting, it doesn't feellike, videos feel like a an
impulse buy almost. You seesomething and there's a visual
aspect that pulls you inimmediately. Yeah.
Again, Spotify introducing someepisode custom episode artwork,
things like that. But in all oftheir kind of current UI, it's
pretty small still. It's not thesame as YouTube where you see a
full thumbnail and that can pullyou in or TikTok or whatever.
(09:26):
And so I yeah. I'm a little bitskeptical that the even with
algorithmic discovery, thatpodcast episodes are really
gonna go viral in the same way avideo does on YouTube.
But we'll probably check back inin a year from now and maybe
we'll be proven wrong. Okay. Sothat's kind of like the state of
affairs right now in podcasting.Algorithms are certainly
becoming a bigger deal. And so Ithink the the next question is,
(09:47):
like, what does that actuallychange for creators in terms of
maybe both opportunities, butalso in terms of how they
approach their shows?
I don't know if you have, like,a specific top of mind thing
that you're thinking about asthis is becoming more of a
reality in the medium.
Justin (10:01):
So I have this fake onion news headline in my head.
I didn't realize my show wouldbe competing with other YouTube
videos for attention, podcastersays. And the whole idea is,
yes, this opens up a whole newworld, which is your content
magically matches up with whatthe algorithm wants. And when
(10:21):
people say, what does thealgorithm want? You're basically
making your content fit whatwill grab a human being and
often grab their lizard brainand get them to watch a second
or five seconds or twentyseconds and then more.
And so this is a very differentmode, and it's why there's a lot
(10:46):
of criticisms aboutalgorithmically driven content
because it really does targetour lizard brain. You know, it's
outrage. It's sex. So there'sgonna be opportunities. But the
first thought I have is just,like, first of all, as a lowly
podcaster, you're competingagainst every other piece of
(11:06):
content that they could belistening or watching on those
platforms.
We've always said this, like,oh, yeah. Your podcast competes
with Netflix. No. You are reallycompeting against YouTubers
who've been crafting theircontent specifically to grab
people and to work with thealgorithm. They are so good at
(11:27):
it, and we're coming into thisas amateurs and really kind of
purveyors of this long formcontent.
We're good at that, but you'regonna have a steep learning
curve if you're gonna compete inthis new arena.
Jeremy (11:44):
Yeah. That actually really aligns with my big
thought on algorithmic discoveryand podcast kind of entering
that, where I think a lot ofpeople I talk to have this
belief that, well, should I putmy podcast on YouTube so that I
can leverage the algorithm? Ithink a lot of people think that
this is going to solve all theirmarketing problems. It's going
to mean that they don't need todo marketing anymore. And what
(12:05):
it really means is you just haveto do a different kind of
marketing, which is more kind ofupfront marketing.
And so you think of, you know,most biggest YouTubers in the
world, you think of Mr. Beast.And I think this was on Colin
and Sameer. He's talked about itin a few different places where
he tells the story of, like, forseveral years straight, I
believe it was. Basically, tenhours a day, him and his
friends, they would get up andanalyze YouTube videos.
And so they would basicallycollect thousands of thumbnails
(12:28):
and dissect what are thecommonalities of the, thumbnails
that do well. Titles, like, theytook an extremely analytical
approach and his quote issomething like that you talk
about, needing ten thousandhours to master something. I
probably put in fifty thousandhours in those couple years
alone. If you want to trulymaster the algorithm, and not to
say, like, everybody's aspiringto be mister beast, but it's
like, that's the work that needsto be done to gain traction on
(12:49):
an algorithm is understanding,like, what does well, studying
that, really deeplyunderstanding that, and then
crafting all of your contentfrom the episode hook. What is
the episode actually about?
What is the thumbnail? What isthe title? All that stuff before
you ever create anything andthen building that thing out in
a way that hooks and retainspeople once they're actually
into the content. Some peoplemight enjoy that. Like that's a
form of creative craft perhaps,But you do hear a lot of
(13:13):
YouTubers complain that theycan't actually make the thing
they wanna create because thatdoesn't get views.
You have to, like, kind ofbastardize your your art in
order to get the traction thatyou want with an algorithm.
Justin (13:24):
There's also a deeper issue here, which is algorithms
fundamentally change the type ofcontent being consumed. It's
designed for addiction. And thisis a fundamental paradigm shift
from audio podcasts. Audiopodcasts are, like, focused on a
(13:49):
long story arc. It's equivalentof a book.
If a podcast is more akin to abook, like long form content,
what kind of, algorithms drivebook discovery? Amazon has an
algorithm, but it's basicallybased on what are people telling
each other to read, which isYeah. How podcast discovery has
(14:11):
always kind of worked. Whenwe're talking about this, you
have to understand this is theway the game is played. And if
you don't like that game, youmight not wanna play.
If you don't wanna be producingthis kind of content and go and
watch a Mr. Beast video, like,go go and see the kind of stuff
that, you know, is being made.He's very good at what he does,
(14:34):
but it's definitely rewardscertain pleasure seeking parts
of our brains. And podcastinghas never quite been like that.
It's been more calm, more longform, more like, hey.
You should check out this show.It was really meaningful to me,
or this story really resonatedwith me, or this host is really
(14:56):
honest, and I just feel likethey're my friend. That's a very
different feel.
Jeremy (15:01):
Yeah.
Justin (15:02):
And so these are the trade offs you're gonna have to
be thinking about, I think, if,you wanna start playing in these
waters.
Jeremy (15:09):
Now there is something that you mentioned there about
I've always thought of podcastsas more similar to books than
YouTube as well. And I wouldsay, I think of podcasts as
similar to books and TV serieswhere they're very show driven.
And, you know, a book is not ashow, but it is a package that
you buy based on what's on thecover, essentially. You might
look at the cover and you mightread the inside of the jacket or
the back of the book and you'relike, hey, this sounds
interesting. I'm signing up forthis journey.
(15:30):
A TV series for most TV, how itworks now is very much, even
with like a sitcom, you'reprobably not just dropping in
for one episode. You probablyare enrolled in these larger
thing. Whereas with YouTube,like I think we've all had this
where you you watch one videothat gets served up by the
algorithm. You may never seethat creator again, or you might
watch 500 videos of that personand you might never actually go
(15:52):
to their channel page, like thehome screen of their channel.
It's just that they get servedup by the algorithm.
And so they'll be curious howthis changes is right now,
podcasting on whole is very showdriven. And so, I almost think,
like, the concept and framingand pitch of your show matters
more than any one episode. Andif you have a strong show, it
kind of raises up the floor ofall your episodes within it.
(16:14):
It's very hard for one episodeto go viral or be one off.
People may drop in and out withinterview shows of well known
people if you're looking forinterviews of that person.
But if you're looking for like ahow to show on how to do
something, you probably don'tjust listen to one episode of a
show. You probably wanna find ashow that covers that whole
thing in-depth. And Mhmm.YouTube has a bit of that
dynamic, but it's much more likea search engine in Google where
(16:35):
you look for how do I do thisthing? You get that targeted
solution.
You're in, you're out, and thenmaybe that's it. And so I'll be
very curious to see if thatdynamic changes where
podcasting, the incentives shiftto the episode ideation and idea
development matters a whole lotmore than it currently does now.
I think it does matter. And ifyou can do that well, it's gonna
benefit your show. But also, ifyou have a great show premise
(16:57):
and concept, the episodes matterless of how you title and frame
them because people are enrolledin this bigger thing.
Justin (17:03):
This is such a shift. Imagine so Stephen King, big
author. People buy StephenKing's books because they like
his writing. Oh, he's got a newbook out. I'm gonna go check it
out.
My guess is his audience ispredominantly 35 to 70 year
olds. And if you think aboutwhat people get from his books,
(17:26):
thriller, horror, whatever,there is a similar type of
content on TikTok, which isyou're just following a horror
trend, and there's all theseghost stories, like the, aliens
over New Jersey. Well, that'sall sorts of creators
contributing to this onetrending topic. And my guess is
(17:50):
that a consumer that would havenormally been a Stephen King
reader now might just be theconsumer of a trend on an
algorithmic platform, YouTube,TikTok, whatever. That changes
the game because the wholepremise of a creator economy is
(18:11):
that I like Stephen King'sbooks, so I'm going to follow
him, and I'm going to buy everybook that he puts out.
I like Hank Green, and so I'mgoing to subscribe to his
YouTube. I like Seth Godin, soI'm going to follow his podcast
and listen to every episode heputs out. That's how shows get
built. That's how YouTubechannels used to get built.
(18:32):
That's how any sort of audiencedriven entity used to get built.
That's not happening anymore inan algorithmic world. In an
algorithmic world, people canget the same benefit by
following an algorithmic trendor an algorithmic rabbit hole.
Right? And this is why you getconspiracy theories. Like, you
(18:54):
can just tumble down a rabbithole of conspiracy theories.
It's just gonna keep serving youthe content that you like. So if
you're a creator, this is a bigdeal. And I'm personally
noticing it with young peoplekind of across the board. So
when you and I were growing up,we would have followed pro
(19:16):
snowboarders, maybe, or we wouldhave had a favorite band.
Jeremy (19:20):
Mhmm. And if
Justin (19:21):
you talk to young people now, it's much more muted. It's
like, who's your favoritesnowboarder? I don't know. But
do you watch snowboarding clipson Instagram? Yeah.
Sure. I watch tons. I thinkpeople are following trends now
more than they're followingcreators, or at least that's the
danger in this new world.
Jeremy (19:41):
This is actually interesting. I listened to this,
episode of the Ezra Klein show awhile ago, and it was on how do
you develop your own taste? Andthis is something I've been
thinking about for a while. Andso when I came across this, I
was like, oh, this isinteresting. And basically, the
premise for the episode is thatin a world of algorithms,
algorithms tend to flatten outtaste.
And so they move everything tothe middle. And so everybody
(20:03):
ends up liking the same thing.And so we had a a guest on who
had written a book essentiallyon this about how algorithms
kill uniqueness and pullcreators to create stuff that is
like everything else becausethat's what get views. Seth
Godin has made a a point aboutthis in the past. I I've had two
questions, call in questionsfeatured on Seth's podcast.
One of them was around music andTV decades ago, like, fifty
(20:24):
years ago. And he had played thesong on one episode previously
that it was just the cheesiestlyrics. And this was, like, a
big hit from, like, the fiftiesor sixties, maybe forties. And I
was, like, man, this is sostupid. Like, the lyrics are
dumb.
Are we just smarter people now?Savvier content consumers? And
his response was like, if youlook back through history, there
are tons of great smart works ofart. But the reality was that if
(20:47):
you look back in the pastcentury or so, there was maybe
three TV stations, a handful ofradio stations. They had to
serve basically everyone and soyou had to dumb down the content
to suit the mean.
Like, the interesting thing withthe internet algorithms is that
it both creates this superaverage and so we look at Chatt
GPT's output, which isessentially the average. It's
not interesting. It's kindaboring. It's maybe accurate,
(21:08):
maybe not. But it's likeWikipedia almost where it's this
crowd sourced collection ofknowledge from the Internet that
has to revert to the mean, butthen it also empowers these
really fringe kind of spikyweird trends that you get.
But if you want to speak towhere the people are, you kind
of have to create more averagestuff and so it's gonna be less
interesting which almost in someway makes it harder to stand out
(21:29):
because you're trying to justchase this thing that people
already want rather rather thanbringing something like really
new and interesting anddifferent. And so part of this
that I'm fascinated with is howit potentially dumbs down
consumers taste but also causecreators to limit their own
taste and their own intuition toappeal to something that they
may not want to make, but it'swhat people want.
Justin (21:49):
And maybe what's interesting in all of this is
going to be the countercultureresponse.
Jeremy (21:57):
Yes.
Justin (21:57):
Already, I'm seeing with my kids who are aged 15, 16, 19,
and 22. They are quitting socialmedia, don't have an Instagram
account, aren't going throughstories on Snapchat. They find
YouTube shorts to be veryaddicting, and they're actively
(22:18):
pushing back on it. I also thinkthat consumers may get tired of
this hot take culture or thesedopamine addicting shows, it
just starts to feel like toomuch. My my son and I have been
trying to watch this new Mr.
(22:38):
Beast Netflix show Beast Wars.And it's just like, and then a
crying person, and then and thenthis extreme thing. It's like a
reality TV show from thenineties on steroids, and it
just feels like at the end,we've eaten way too much sugar.
And it's like, ugh. I thinkpeople are going to be looking
(23:03):
for voices that they can trust.
And, you know, to Joe JoeRogan's credit, this is
something he's been able tomaintain is that he benefits
from algorithms because there'sa clip that might pop off and
then bring in more audience forhim. But he's also just become
(23:23):
this voice that a lot of,especially young men, trust.
Scott Galloway's done this. Ithink Kara Swisher's done this.
Seth Godin.
We could name other voices thathave been able to operate on
this level according to theirown principles. We might not
agree with all those principles,but according to their own
principles and just say, youknow, we're gonna operate up
(23:45):
here, and we're going to attractpeople that are looking for a
voice they can
Jeremy (23:52):
trust. You know, and this is I think what's really
interesting about thisdiscussion is I think algorithms
really reward quick hit contentto some extent. They're great
discovery platforms. That's whatthey're built for. But I think
that what we need to understandas creators is that there is a
difference between the thingthat gets people to seek us out
or find us in the first placeand attract them in and then the
(24:13):
thing that keeps them comingback.
And so I think that that'ssomething where one of the
interesting sides of this is ifalgorithms didn't exist, we
would basically be where we areright now with podcasting. So
it's like it's not gonna get anyworse. All the things that work
to grow podcasts now willcontinue to work. And even even
think about some of thedownsides of algorithms. You
could be shadow banned.
You could do all these things.Basically, anybody who's been
(24:34):
shadow banned, like, is now inthe same boat as any podcaster.
And if you've been overlyreliant or solely reliant on an
algorithm to get you exposure,then, you know, you're kind of
stuck. You don't might not havethe tools to be able to go out
and build an audience on yourown. But any podcaster coming
in, if you figured out how tojust grow a base already, like,
now you kind of have asuperpower where it's like,
(24:54):
okay, you already know how to dothis.
This. You know how to engagewith communities and go out and
find people, like, do thelegwork on the ground, guesting
on other podcasts, going andfinding visibility out there
that is not algorithmicallydriven. If you can do that, plus
you can then dip in and out ofusing the algorithm. Maybe it's
like once a month, you reallytry to have, like, an
algorithmic lead driven podcastepisode. And the rest of them
(25:15):
are more of that, like, slower.
Maybe it's more of the contentthat are going to keep people
coming back. There's There'sprobably a bunch of ways that
you could play with both ofthese dynamics and build an
audience of people who come toyou because they know, like, and
trust you. They rely on you, togive them, you know, your take
on whatever the topic is. Ormaybe because you actually have
a larger compelling show that isit's more of an experience than
(25:36):
a very highly episodic kind ofYouTube style content. But every
now and then, you do have avideo that breaks through and
gets out in front of morepeople.
So I think there's actually alot of opportunities here, and
it's not necessarily a all oneor the other.
Justin (25:49):
I think you also gotta ask yourself if you want that
kind of attention becausealgorithmic attention is very
different than somebody who'sbuilt up an audience that trusts
them over a long period of time.Algorithmic attention is, like,
drive by attention. It oftenresults in a lot of nasty
comments and, maybe people thatyou don't want in your
(26:10):
ecosystem. So these are thingsyou're gonna have to test out
for yourself.
Jeremy (26:16):
Okay. So, I wanna kind of close this out the last
section here talking about whatare the directives to creators.
So this is happening whether welike it or not. And algorithms
are playing a larger role inpodcasting. They're opening up
opportunities, maybe also somedownsides.
So, like, what how do you thinka creator should approach these
things?
Justin (26:36):
You know, one thing that came up as we're talking, and
I'd love to get your take onthis, because I think in this
new ecosystem, podcastersactually do have to be very
creative. And here's why. All ofthese algorithmic platforms now
have a cartoon version ofpodcasting that's on display all
(26:58):
the time. And I think thechallenge is that for podcasters
to get the essence of whatthey're doing into a five
second, ten second, thirtysecond clip, or a hook at the
beginning of a episode, we'regonna be competing with this
cartoon approximation that'sjust perforated the whole
(27:21):
ecosystem. Like, you open upTikTok, and it's people talking
on SM seven bs in these tensecond clips.
It's like a poor version of theauthenticity and the humanness
that is podcasting, but it'sjust been repackaged so many
times now that it feels likethere's just this, like, banal
(27:46):
everything. And I'm trying tothink, like, every kind of
creative thing I can think of,like, okay. Well, if we
shouldn't be in front of ourmicrophones, maybe we should be
out talking with our phones likethis, but everyone's doing that
too. And these have all thenbeen repurposed by infomarketers
who then even have a cheesier,worse version of this. And I
(28:06):
think consumers are eventuallyjust gonna be like, blah.
Like, enough of this pseudopodcasting thing. But then it
that's gonna where does thatleave real podcasters?
Jeremy (28:20):
Yeah. So I think the thing to keep in mind here is
people have different jobs thatthey want done. This is our,
okay, episode one of the newseason. We're already bringing
back jobs to be done. Yeah.
Perfect. Check that off thelist. Yeah. And I think that
podcasting does a very differentjob than YouTube does. And so I
and I'm sure you do too.
And I'm sure almost everybodylistening to this listens to
(28:42):
podcasts and they watch YouTubevideos and they might also
follow content on social media.And probably if you study your
own habits and your own feelingsand impulses, you probably
recognize that you reach for acertain tool or platform at
different times for differentthings. And so for whatever
reason, I I listen to podcastswhen I walk to the coffee shop
(29:02):
or just go out for a walk ingeneral. Makes sense. It's audio
only and, you know, a lot ofthese shows are on YouTube as
well, but I like the audioversion because I can go out for
a walk and have them in my ears.
I never listen to audio contentwhen I'm in my house. I will put
YouTube on and I'll have it onmy computer while I'm eating
lunch or not really on the TV,but I might have it on the iPad
or things like that. And then Idon't really do social media
(29:23):
that much. So I don't reallyhave the the clip based. But I
think that there is something,even for shows that are
available on both platforms,there's something that I expect
from podcasting that there is aa category of content that I
have a different associationwith than I do with YouTube.
Now both of us are of ademographic that is different
than, you know, your kids are.And so they may not have that
(29:45):
distinction, but I think that itstill will exist. That is
something where there's stillgoing to be this ongoing, at the
podcast industry level, kind ofeducation of, like, what
podcasts do that video doesn't.And I I think
Justin (29:57):
the feeling that a lot of people in
Jeremy (29:59):
the industry and also creators feel is, like, they
just have to rush to doingvideo, doing maybe shorter form,
whatever the algorithm isactually going to reward. But I
think there's actually anempowering stance to say, like,
hey, there is a subset of peoplewho don't want that. And it's
not that they don't watchYouTube. It's that they want a
different type of contentexperience than YouTube. And I
(30:20):
think that the thing withbasically all marketing is
understanding, like, positioningand counter positioning.
And so you kinda hinted atbefore that there
Charles Duhigg (30:27):
is this going to be
Jeremy (30:28):
this counter cultural reaction that's already
happening. And I am very curiousto see which podcasters and
which shows, how how they areable to plant their flag firmly
in the side of podcasting. Thatmight be video. It might be
discoverable by algorithm, butthey're creating an experience
that is markedly different fromwhat you expect from YouTube.
And so maybe there it's a slowerpace and it's like that's
(30:49):
something that actually is builtinto their positioning.
They're saying like, hey, in aworld that is trying to go more
short form, we're actually goingto do this in-depth nuance thing
that there is a significantnumber of people who actually
want this. They don't want thefifteen minute YouTube version
or the five minute YouTubeversion or the one minute TikTok
version. They want the two and ahalf hour long version that gets
way into the weeds and goes waymore in-depth and way more
(31:10):
nuanced. And so I think thatcreators should be thinking
about, like, what doespodcasting do that YouTube
doesn't? And if that's what Iwanna create, like, I need to go
all the way on that side ofthings.
I can't just be, like, wafflingbetween, well, I kinda wanted to
do with you on YouTube, but Ialso wanna do this thing and you
get stuck in the middle. And soI think it's important to
understand, like, the dynamicshere of, like, what do people
expect from a podcast? What dopeople like from the experience
(31:31):
of a podcast? And then if youwanna go to YouTube and the
algorithmically driven route,what do people expect from that
type of content and what arethose algorithms reward? So I
think that kind of decision isone of the first places of,
like, where you wanna play andhow you wanna, leverage these
platforms.
Justin (31:44):
As you're talking, it was just bringing up all sorts
of thoughts and ideas. JamesCrindlin has this great quote
where he says, we need to marketpodcasting as the content you go
for when your eyes are busy orsomething like that. And I think
this kind of positioning ofpodcasting, of saying, what is
podcasting and audio podcastingin particular good at? What is
(32:07):
it good for? And remindingpeople about that.
But also, we've got theseyounger generations, Gen z and
Gen alpha or whatever. They'regonna need to be educated, And
we need to think of creativeways to sell them on audio
podcasting. And one could be,hey, you your brain needs a
(32:30):
break. You need some calm. Youfeel like you've had too much
sugar.
Like, here's an idea. Put youryour AirPods in, go for a walk,
and listen to this show. Andthis show is going to be like a
companion for you. It's gonna betalking about the issues and
(32:51):
feelings and situations in yourlife that you're contemplating
right now. It's going to add toyour life in a totally different
way.
In the same way that you mightsell someone on meditation, I
think there's a version of thisof podcasting is the calm
alternative. When you need toget out of the house and you
just want to go for a walk oryou wanna go for a drive or
(33:15):
you're gonna do the dishes,like, your eyes are busy. And
here's something you can put inyour ears that can educate you,
that can inform you, that canentertain you, but in a way
that's not gonna make you feelsick. Yep. So much of, like,
good content, like good comedy,good whatever, is articulating
(33:36):
the thing that people arefeeling, but they haven't
articulated for themselves.
That's the way you can play inthese arenas or at least one
approach.
Jeremy (33:48):
Alright. So one last spicy take here, before we close
this one out here. I have thisthought that there's this
decision of, like, do I want to,you know, go all in on YouTube?
Do I want to really play thealgorithmic game? My stance here
is that, to some extent,algorithms reward the same
things that people do.
And they are partially designedthis way. They're trying to
(34:10):
surface stuff that people willclick on. And as you pointed out
earlier, a lot of stuff thatalgorithm surface kind of speaks
to the lizard brain, the kind oflike basest emotions of
ourselves. But when we thinkabout, if you look at what
YouTubers talk about when theytalk about succeeding with the
algorithm, They talk about thetitles and the thumbnails of
their videos. And they basicallysay, if I can't create a
(34:32):
thumbnail and title that I knowpeople will click on, I don't
create the video.
And so my take here is thatpodcasters could actually apply
exactly that to their shows now.And even in the absence of
algorithms, if they're scrollingthrough Pocket Cast, somebody
comes across their show and theysee a a really compelling title
that is really clickable andmaybe some custom episode art
that is also really clickable,they're gonna get more listeners
(34:53):
that way as well. And so italmost doesn't matter if
algorithms exist or not. Youshould still be doing the things
that algorithms reward.
Justin (35:00):
Here's my counter on that. I had this experience the
other day where I listened to ana podcast from an expert, and I
just, like, was so impressedwith them. And I said, oh, I
gotta find out what you know,their other stuff. And I
searched their name, found theirYouTube channel. And their
(35:22):
YouTube channel was full ofmister beast style thumbnails,
like cheesy, attention grabbing,whatever.
And it just diminished myrespect for this person
immediately. Yes. It felt likeall of the authority and poise
and, you know, respect I hadgarnered for this person was
(35:46):
gone in an instant because theywere trying to play this game.
And in my head, I'm like, youdon't need to do this. You don't
need to play this game.
You don't have to have thatattention grabbing thumbnail.
People are going to search youout. They're gonna see your
YouTube channel. Make thatYouTube channel classy. And it's
(36:08):
made me think about my ownstuff.
Like, I've tried to play thisthumbnail game as well, and I go
back to my YouTube channel. AndI look at it, and I'm like, it's
embarrassing. It's like, ugh.Why? Why?
The truth in what you're sayingis that obviously, titles
matter. Headlines have matteredsince the newspaper age. You
(36:29):
know, a book title matters. Thefirst sentence of a chapter in a
book matters. So these things domatter.
Maybe my tweak on it will be,let's be careful that we don't
discount or degrade the qualityof what we're doing by slapping
some cheesy infomercial graphicon it. Let's give it the class
(36:55):
that it probably deserves. Andin the long run, if you're
trying to attract an audiencethat kind of knows and respects
you, you need to be doing thingsthat garner respect. So, yes,
think about the headline. But, Imean, I've had tons of pushback
on kind of clickbait headlinesthat I've used.
(37:18):
And maybe sometimes it's fine.But one thing that we don't see
in churn stats for podcastlistenership or YouTube watching
or whatever is just how muchthose activities end up harming
us long term. You often don'tsee how many people are there,
like, I'm just sick of thisaltogether. You know? And if we
(37:38):
can be a refreshingcounterculture voice in these
places, and it might just mean,you know what?
I'm not gonna use that Mr. Beastthumbnail technique. I'm gonna
go counterculture and I'm justgonna have something that truly
represents the taste that I'mbringing to this show.
You have to understand: this is the way the game is
played. And if you don't likethat game, you might not wanna
play.
Jeremy (00:08):
All the things that work to grow Podcast Now will
continue to work. And even thinkabout some of the downsides of
algorithms. You could be shadowbanned. You could do all these
things.
Justin (00:15):
In this new ecosystem, podcasters actually do have to
be very creative. And here'swhy...
Jeremy (00:25):
So basically, since as long as podcasting has been
around, people have beenclamoring for one thing and one
thing only, which is betterdiscoverability. People look at
YouTube and TikTok and they seethe just incredible audience
numbers that people are pilingup and they think that, oh,
there's no algorithm inpodcasting. And if we had an
algorithm that would just solveall of my marketing problems, I
(00:47):
would soon have a massiveaudience just like my favorite
YouTubers. And, now it seemslike we actually might be moving
into the algorithmically drivenera of podcasting. And I'm
wondering if you have thoughtson whether this is the kind of
cure all that a lot of peopleseem to think it is.
Justin (01:03):
Well, I don't think it's gonna be the cure all. I've
previously described gettingthat algorithmic discovery like
doing a deal with the devil, Andthat might be overstated. I
think there are opportunitiesfor podcasters in this space.
There's been some interestingresearch that's come out in the
past year about how peoplereally discover new shows that I
(01:24):
think will be interesting tothink about. So, yes, there will
be some opportunities, but withsome caveats.
Jeremy (01:32):
Alright. So let's maybe start off and dig into some of
the updates that are happeningin the podcast ecosystem. And so
these are mainly driven by twoof the big players, YouTube and
Spotify, who have been makingsome big moves in the past
couple of years. But YouTube, Iknow, has, like, really come out
in the past twelve months aswe're recording this now and has
actually taken the lead inpodcast listenership.
Justin (01:52):
That's right. So and now Edison and some of these other
research institutions arestarting to talk about podcast
consumption as opposed to justlistening or watching,
especially because in somecases, these, modalities are
fluid. So if you listen onYouTube music, I don't know if
you've checked that out yet, Youcan switch between video and
(02:12):
audio mode. Same with, Spotify.You can switch between video and
audio mode.
Many consumers don't actuallylike, the distinction isn't that
important to them. It's reallyimportant in podcasting for
economic reasons. A lot ofadvertising platforms want those
dynamically inserted ads in theaudio version. But, yes, as of
(02:36):
October 2024, '30 '1 percent ofweekly podcast consumption aged
13 and up prefer YouTube forpodcast listening surpassing
Spotify at 27% and ApplePodcasts at 15%. And, again,
that's from Edison Research.
This is even more pronounced foryounger audiences. Edison found
(02:58):
that 84% of Gen z monthlypodcast consumers engage with
podcasts that include video.
Jeremy (03:06):
It's crazy because I know when I first got into
podcasting back in 2015 or so,and I know you've got in
probably a little bit earlierthan that as well. Like, just
Apple was the basically, theonly show in town almost. They
might have accounted for what,80% of listenership, and now
they're down to 15. AndYouTube's kinda come out of
nowhere in the past few yearsand taken the lead
Justin (03:24):
here. Yeah. And some of this is just the fact that
YouTube has been not reportedpreviously. Joe Rogan's had his
clips on YouTube forever. Soit's not like this is new.
Apple previously did have kindof more of a balanced audio and
video component. You mightremember old shows like Dig
Nation and This Week in Techwith Leo LaPorte. As soon as
(03:47):
YouTube became a viabledistribution platform, all those
other shows were on YouTube. Itjust wasn't being reported as
podcasting. So now it's beingreported.
The YouTube audience is so big.My guess is that it's actually
been the biggest podcast, quote,unquote, consumption platform
for a long time. It's just nowwe're all paying attention
(04:08):
because YouTube has officiallyadopted it. It's in the YouTube
UI. If you open it up, you'llnotice a bunch of tabs at the
top, and podcasts is somethingthey're actively promoting as a
genre.
Jeremy (04:21):
What's interesting is, like, we've got YouTube on the
one side where they when youthink of algorithms, you at
least I think of TikTok andYouTube as the probably most
sophisticated algorithms outthere for content discovery. But
Yeah. Then we've got Spotify.It's a little bit interesting
that YouTube is trying to, like,move into Spotify's turf
bringing in audio. Spotify istrying to move into YouTube's
turf really emphasizing video.
And Spotify has more subtly andquietly been introducing more
(04:44):
algorithmically driven discoveryin their platform. I use Spotify
to listen to music. I actually,for the first time last week,
listened to an audiobook onSpotify, which I never had
before. For some reason, I don'twant to listen to podcasts on
Spotify. I use, an app calledSnipd, which I love because you
can tap the headphones and itsaves snips and it transcribes
them and syncs them to Notion.
(05:05):
Spotify doesn't do that. Butsomehow, I also don't just want
to let Spotify monopolize all mycontent consumption. So I'm
resisting. But they do a sneakygood job of surfacing shows on
the home screen or in the listennext. And that's opening up all
kinds of interestingopportunities for podcasters as
well, including, like, some ofthe data that they're sharing on
Discovery, which we're actuallygonna do a whole episode on
(05:27):
that.
But I'm curious, like, have youlistened to podcasts on Spotify?
What's your experience been withthat kind of UI?
Justin (05:33):
Pocket Casts is my podcast listening app. As I walk
home from work, I'm listening topodcasts. As soon as I get home,
I often will turn on YouTube.And often, I'm watching a
podcast on there. I think whereSpotify doesn't quite have the
same advantage as YouTube isthis connected TV channel.
(05:54):
It you can watch your stuff onSpotify on a connected TV, but
YouTube just has that icon on myApple TV that I go to. I have
listened to some podcasts andwatched some podcasts on
Spotify, especially when theywere doing a lot of exclusives.
They've introduced clips, so youcan get clips in Spotify that
(06:15):
are basically promoting shows.I'm starting to see those more.
But, yeah, for me, it might beless so because Apple Music is
my music listening app.
Pocket cast is my podcastlistening app. And then I go
home
Charles Duhigg (06:28):
Mhmm.
Justin (06:28):
And I watch YouTube. I'm also in a different generation,
so I grew up having a dedicatedpodcasting app. So I don't know.
It it hasn't really affected me,but I see it in other people.
You know, when I'm on thechairlift and I ask people what
podcast they're listening to,they say they're listening in
Spotify or I found this show inSpotify.
So it's clearly having aneffect.
Jeremy (06:51):
Yeah. And I think, like, some of the interesting things
with transcripts that are beingprocessed behind the scenes and
then recommending if you go toan actual episode page of a
podcast, you're listening tothat episode, they'll recommend
other episodes or other shows atthe bottom of the screen that
are related to the one thatyou're listening to. And
oftentimes, you look at thetitles and you're like, how are
they pulling this in? Because mytitle doesn't say anything about
(07:12):
these things and yet they doseem relevant. And so that's an
interesting little additionthere as well where I think
there are going to be moreopportunities for podcasters to
leverage Spotify discovery suchas you can leverage it and
engineer that.
Obviously, there's a lot of Ithink we're gonna talk about
this, the power that theplatform has in an algorithmic,
majoring world. But I think thelast thing we just need to talk
(07:32):
about in terms of context hereis when when we think of
YouTube, we immediately thinkvideos. And that's obviously a
big part of what podcasts arenow considered. Spotify is
bringing videos in, but bothYouTube, like, they're now
bringing audio only component.Spotify is still using
algorithms on their audio onlycontent.
So this is not really aconversation about video
podcasting in particular. It'sjust happens to be that both
(07:54):
platforms do both audio andvideo and use algorithms to
surface content.
Justin (07:59):
Yeah. Although, again, we gotta talk about Marshall
McLuhan. The medium is themessage. I think video does lend
itself to algorithmicallydistributed content because it's
so addictive. I go on toFacebook to look at something on
marketplace, and pretty soon I'mlooking at dozens of old TV
clips from, you know, the thenineties.
(08:20):
It it just draws you in, Ithink, differently than audio.
There have been audio clip appsin the past. I don't know if you
remember. There was one called Ithink it was called Swift or
something like that where, theywould you could listen to ten
second clips and, like, scrollthrough just like TikTok. It
(08:41):
doesn't have the same effect.
And in fact, this is kind ofwhat we like about podcasting is
that it's not this addictivething. I think the medium is the
message. The reason thatalgorithmic often equals video
is because video does have thiskind of, like, addictive
(09:01):
character.
Jeremy (09:02):
Yeah. I would agree with that. I think that, yeah,
Podcasting, it doesn't feellike, videos feel like a an
impulse buy almost. You seesomething and there's a visual
aspect that pulls you inimmediately. Yeah.
Again, Spotify introducing someepisode custom episode artwork,
things like that. But in all oftheir kind of current UI, it's
pretty small still. It's not thesame as YouTube where you see a
full thumbnail and that can pullyou in or TikTok or whatever.
(09:26):
And so I yeah. I'm a little bitskeptical that the even with
algorithmic discovery, thatpodcast episodes are really
gonna go viral in the same way avideo does on YouTube.
But we'll probably check back inin a year from now and maybe
we'll be proven wrong. Okay. Sothat's kind of like the state of
affairs right now in podcasting.Algorithms are certainly
becoming a bigger deal. And so Ithink the the next question is,
(09:47):
like, what does that actuallychange for creators in terms of
maybe both opportunities, butalso in terms of how they
approach their shows?
I don't know if you have, like,a specific top of mind thing
that you're thinking about asthis is becoming more of a
reality in the medium.
Justin (10:01):
So I have this fake onion news headline in my head.
I didn't realize my show wouldbe competing with other YouTube
videos for attention, podcastersays. And the whole idea is,
yes, this opens up a whole newworld, which is your content
magically matches up with whatthe algorithm wants. And when
(10:21):
people say, what does thealgorithm want? You're basically
making your content fit whatwill grab a human being and
often grab their lizard brainand get them to watch a second
or five seconds or twentyseconds and then more.
And so this is a very differentmode, and it's why there's a lot
(10:46):
of criticisms aboutalgorithmically driven content
because it really does targetour lizard brain. You know, it's
outrage. It's sex. So there'sgonna be opportunities. But the
first thought I have is just,like, first of all, as a lowly
podcaster, you're competingagainst every other piece of
(11:06):
content that they could belistening or watching on those
platforms.
We've always said this, like,oh, yeah. Your podcast competes
with Netflix. No. You are reallycompeting against YouTubers
who've been crafting theircontent specifically to grab
people and to work with thealgorithm. They are so good at
(11:27):
it, and we're coming into thisas amateurs and really kind of
purveyors of this long formcontent.
We're good at that, but you'regonna have a steep learning
curve if you're gonna compete inthis new arena.
Jeremy (11:44):
Yeah. That actually really aligns with my big
thought on algorithmic discoveryand podcast kind of entering
that, where I think a lot ofpeople I talk to have this
belief that, well, should I putmy podcast on YouTube so that I
can leverage the algorithm? Ithink a lot of people think that
this is going to solve all theirmarketing problems. It's going
to mean that they don't need todo marketing anymore. And what
(12:05):
it really means is you just haveto do a different kind of
marketing, which is more kind ofupfront marketing.
And so you think of, you know,most biggest YouTubers in the
world, you think of Mr. Beast.And I think this was on Colin
and Sameer. He's talked about itin a few different places where
he tells the story of, like, forseveral years straight, I
believe it was. Basically, tenhours a day, him and his
friends, they would get up andanalyze YouTube videos.
And so they would basicallycollect thousands of thumbnails
(12:28):
and dissect what are thecommonalities of the, thumbnails
that do well. Titles, like, theytook an extremely analytical
approach and his quote issomething like that you talk
about, needing ten thousandhours to master something. I
probably put in fifty thousandhours in those couple years
alone. If you want to trulymaster the algorithm, and not to
say, like, everybody's aspiringto be mister beast, but it's
like, that's the work that needsto be done to gain traction on
(12:49):
an algorithm is understanding,like, what does well, studying
that, really deeplyunderstanding that, and then
crafting all of your contentfrom the episode hook. What is
the episode actually about?
What is the thumbnail? What isthe title? All that stuff before
you ever create anything andthen building that thing out in
a way that hooks and retainspeople once they're actually
into the content. Some peoplemight enjoy that. Like that's a
form of creative craft perhaps,But you do hear a lot of
(13:13):
YouTubers complain that theycan't actually make the thing
they wanna create because thatdoesn't get views.
You have to, like, kind ofbastardize your your art in
order to get the traction thatyou want with an algorithm.
Justin (13:24):
There's also a deeper issue here, which is algorithms
fundamentally change the type ofcontent being consumed. It's
designed for addiction. And thisis a fundamental paradigm shift
from audio podcasts. Audiopodcasts are, like, focused on a
(13:49):
long story arc. It's equivalentof a book.
If a podcast is more akin to abook, like long form content,
what kind of, algorithms drivebook discovery? Amazon has an
algorithm, but it's basicallybased on what are people telling
each other to read, which isYeah. How podcast discovery has
(14:11):
always kind of worked. Whenwe're talking about this, you
have to understand this is theway the game is played. And if
you don't like that game, youmight not wanna play.
If you don't wanna be producingthis kind of content and go and
watch a Mr. Beast video, like,go go and see the kind of stuff
that, you know, is being made.He's very good at what he does,
(14:34):
but it's definitely rewardscertain pleasure seeking parts
of our brains. And podcastinghas never quite been like that.
It's been more calm, more longform, more like, hey.
You should check out this show.It was really meaningful to me,
or this story really resonatedwith me, or this host is really
(14:56):
honest, and I just feel likethey're my friend. That's a very
different feel.
Jeremy (15:01):
Yeah.
Justin (15:02):
And so these are the trade offs you're gonna have to
be thinking about, I think, if,you wanna start playing in these
waters.
Jeremy (15:09):
Now there is something that you mentioned there about
I've always thought of podcastsas more similar to books than
YouTube as well. And I wouldsay, I think of podcasts as
similar to books and TV serieswhere they're very show driven.
And, you know, a book is not ashow, but it is a package that
you buy based on what's on thecover, essentially. You might
look at the cover and you mightread the inside of the jacket or
the back of the book and you'relike, hey, this sounds
interesting. I'm signing up forthis journey.
(15:30):
A TV series for most TV, how itworks now is very much, even
with like a sitcom, you'reprobably not just dropping in
for one episode. You probablyare enrolled in these larger
thing. Whereas with YouTube,like I think we've all had this
where you you watch one videothat gets served up by the
algorithm. You may never seethat creator again, or you might
watch 500 videos of that personand you might never actually go
(15:52):
to their channel page, like thehome screen of their channel.
It's just that they get servedup by the algorithm.
And so they'll be curious howthis changes is right now,
podcasting on whole is very showdriven. And so, I almost think,
like, the concept and framingand pitch of your show matters
more than any one episode. Andif you have a strong show, it
kind of raises up the floor ofall your episodes within it.
(16:14):
It's very hard for one episodeto go viral or be one off.
People may drop in and out withinterview shows of well known
people if you're looking forinterviews of that person.
But if you're looking for like ahow to show on how to do
something, you probably don'tjust listen to one episode of a
show. You probably wanna find ashow that covers that whole
thing in-depth. And Mhmm.YouTube has a bit of that
dynamic, but it's much more likea search engine in Google where
(16:35):
you look for how do I do thisthing? You get that targeted
solution.
You're in, you're out, and thenmaybe that's it. And so I'll be
very curious to see if thatdynamic changes where
podcasting, the incentives shiftto the episode ideation and idea
development matters a whole lotmore than it currently does now.
I think it does matter. And ifyou can do that well, it's gonna
benefit your show. But also, ifyou have a great show premise
(16:57):
and concept, the episodes matterless of how you title and frame
them because people are enrolledin this bigger thing.
Justin (17:03):
This is such a shift. Imagine so Stephen King, big
author. People buy StephenKing's books because they like
his writing. Oh, he's got a newbook out. I'm gonna go check it
out.
My guess is his audience ispredominantly 35 to 70 year
olds. And if you think aboutwhat people get from his books,
(17:26):
thriller, horror, whatever,there is a similar type of
content on TikTok, which isyou're just following a horror
trend, and there's all theseghost stories, like the, aliens
over New Jersey. Well, that'sall sorts of creators
contributing to this onetrending topic. And my guess is
(17:50):
that a consumer that would havenormally been a Stephen King
reader now might just be theconsumer of a trend on an
algorithmic platform, YouTube,TikTok, whatever. That changes
the game because the wholepremise of a creator economy is
(18:11):
that I like Stephen King'sbooks, so I'm going to follow
him, and I'm going to buy everybook that he puts out.
I like Hank Green, and so I'mgoing to subscribe to his
YouTube. I like Seth Godin, soI'm going to follow his podcast
and listen to every episode heputs out. That's how shows get
built. That's how YouTubechannels used to get built.
(18:32):
That's how any sort of audiencedriven entity used to get built.
That's not happening anymore inan algorithmic world. In an
algorithmic world, people canget the same benefit by
following an algorithmic trendor an algorithmic rabbit hole.
Right? And this is why you getconspiracy theories. Like, you
(18:54):
can just tumble down a rabbithole of conspiracy theories.
It's just gonna keep serving youthe content that you like. So if
you're a creator, this is a bigdeal. And I'm personally
noticing it with young peoplekind of across the board. So
when you and I were growing up,we would have followed pro
(19:16):
snowboarders, maybe, or we wouldhave had a favorite band.
Jeremy (19:20):
Mhmm. And if
Justin (19:21):
you talk to young people now, it's much more muted. It's
like, who's your favoritesnowboarder? I don't know. But
do you watch snowboarding clipson Instagram? Yeah.
Sure. I watch tons. I thinkpeople are following trends now
more than they're followingcreators, or at least that's the
danger in this new world.
Jeremy (19:41):
This is actually interesting. I listened to this,
episode of the Ezra Klein show awhile ago, and it was on how do
you develop your own taste? Andthis is something I've been
thinking about for a while. Andso when I came across this, I
was like, oh, this isinteresting. And basically, the
premise for the episode is thatin a world of algorithms,
algorithms tend to flatten outtaste.
And so they move everything tothe middle. And so everybody
(20:03):
ends up liking the same thing.And so we had a a guest on who
had written a book essentiallyon this about how algorithms
kill uniqueness and pullcreators to create stuff that is
like everything else becausethat's what get views. Seth
Godin has made a a point aboutthis in the past. I I've had two
questions, call in questionsfeatured on Seth's podcast.
One of them was around music andTV decades ago, like, fifty
(20:24):
years ago. And he had played thesong on one episode previously
that it was just the cheesiestlyrics. And this was, like, a
big hit from, like, the fiftiesor sixties, maybe forties. And I
was, like, man, this is sostupid. Like, the lyrics are
dumb.
Are we just smarter people now?Savvier content consumers? And
his response was like, if youlook back through history, there
are tons of great smart works ofart. But the reality was that if
(20:47):
you look back in the pastcentury or so, there was maybe
three TV stations, a handful ofradio stations. They had to
serve basically everyone and soyou had to dumb down the content
to suit the mean.
Like, the interesting thing withthe internet algorithms is that
it both creates this superaverage and so we look at Chatt
GPT's output, which isessentially the average. It's
not interesting. It's kindaboring. It's maybe accurate,
(21:08):
maybe not. But it's likeWikipedia almost where it's this
crowd sourced collection ofknowledge from the Internet that
has to revert to the mean, butthen it also empowers these
really fringe kind of spikyweird trends that you get.
But if you want to speak towhere the people are, you kind
of have to create more averagestuff and so it's gonna be less
interesting which almost in someway makes it harder to stand out
(21:29):
because you're trying to justchase this thing that people
already want rather rather thanbringing something like really
new and interesting anddifferent. And so part of this
that I'm fascinated with is howit potentially dumbs down
consumers taste but also causecreators to limit their own
taste and their own intuition toappeal to something that they
may not want to make, but it'swhat people want.
Justin (21:49):
And maybe what's interesting in all of this is
going to be the countercultureresponse.
Jeremy (21:57):
Yes.
Justin (21:57):
Already, I'm seeing with my kids who are aged 15, 16, 19,
and 22. They are quitting socialmedia, don't have an Instagram
account, aren't going throughstories on Snapchat. They find
YouTube shorts to be veryaddicting, and they're actively
(22:18):
pushing back on it. I also thinkthat consumers may get tired of
this hot take culture or thesedopamine addicting shows, it
just starts to feel like toomuch. My my son and I have been
trying to watch this new Mr.
(22:38):
Beast Netflix show Beast Wars.And it's just like, and then a
crying person, and then and thenthis extreme thing. It's like a
reality TV show from thenineties on steroids, and it
just feels like at the end,we've eaten way too much sugar.
And it's like, ugh. I thinkpeople are going to be looking
(23:03):
for voices that they can trust.
And, you know, to Joe JoeRogan's credit, this is
something he's been able tomaintain is that he benefits
from algorithms because there'sa clip that might pop off and
then bring in more audience forhim. But he's also just become
(23:23):
this voice that a lot of,especially young men, trust.
Scott Galloway's done this. Ithink Kara Swisher's done this.
Seth Godin.
We could name other voices thathave been able to operate on
this level according to theirown principles. We might not
agree with all those principles,but according to their own
principles and just say, youknow, we're gonna operate up
(23:45):
here, and we're going to attractpeople that are looking for a
voice they can
Jeremy (23:52):
trust. You know, and this is I think what's really
interesting about thisdiscussion is I think algorithms
really reward quick hit contentto some extent. They're great
discovery platforms. That's whatthey're built for. But I think
that what we need to understandas creators is that there is a
difference between the thingthat gets people to seek us out
or find us in the first placeand attract them in and then the
(24:13):
thing that keeps them comingback.
And so I think that that'ssomething where one of the
interesting sides of this is ifalgorithms didn't exist, we
would basically be where we areright now with podcasting. So
it's like it's not gonna get anyworse. All the things that work
to grow podcasts now willcontinue to work. And even even
think about some of thedownsides of algorithms. You
could be shadow banned.
You could do all these things.Basically, anybody who's been
(24:34):
shadow banned, like, is now inthe same boat as any podcaster.
And if you've been overlyreliant or solely reliant on an
algorithm to get you exposure,then, you know, you're kind of
stuck. You don't might not havethe tools to be able to go out
and build an audience on yourown. But any podcaster coming
in, if you figured out how tojust grow a base already, like,
now you kind of have asuperpower where it's like,
(24:54):
okay, you already know how to dothis.
This. You know how to engagewith communities and go out and
find people, like, do thelegwork on the ground, guesting
on other podcasts, going andfinding visibility out there
that is not algorithmicallydriven. If you can do that, plus
you can then dip in and out ofusing the algorithm. Maybe it's
like once a month, you reallytry to have, like, an
algorithmic lead driven podcastepisode. And the rest of them
(25:15):
are more of that, like, slower.
Maybe it's more of the contentthat are going to keep people
coming back. There's There'sprobably a bunch of ways that
you could play with both ofthese dynamics and build an
audience of people who come toyou because they know, like, and
trust you. They rely on you, togive them, you know, your take
on whatever the topic is. Ormaybe because you actually have
a larger compelling show that isit's more of an experience than
(25:36):
a very highly episodic kind ofYouTube style content. But every
now and then, you do have avideo that breaks through and
gets out in front of morepeople.
So I think there's actually alot of opportunities here, and
it's not necessarily a all oneor the other.
Justin (25:49):
I think you also gotta ask yourself if you want that
kind of attention becausealgorithmic attention is very
different than somebody who'sbuilt up an audience that trusts
them over a long period of time.Algorithmic attention is, like,
drive by attention. It oftenresults in a lot of nasty
comments and, maybe people thatyou don't want in your
(26:10):
ecosystem. So these are thingsyou're gonna have to test out
for yourself.
Jeremy (26:16):
Okay. So, I wanna kind of close this out the last
section here talking about whatare the directives to creators.
So this is happening whether welike it or not. And algorithms
are playing a larger role inpodcasting. They're opening up
opportunities, maybe also somedownsides.
So, like, what how do you thinka creator should approach these
things?
Justin (26:36):
You know, one thing that came up as we're talking, and
I'd love to get your take onthis, because I think in this
new ecosystem, podcastersactually do have to be very
creative. And here's why. All ofthese algorithmic platforms now
have a cartoon version ofpodcasting that's on display all
(26:58):
the time. And I think thechallenge is that for podcasters
to get the essence of whatthey're doing into a five
second, ten second, thirtysecond clip, or a hook at the
beginning of a episode, we'regonna be competing with this
cartoon approximation that'sjust perforated the whole
(27:21):
ecosystem. Like, you open upTikTok, and it's people talking
on SM seven bs in these tensecond clips.
It's like a poor version of theauthenticity and the humanness
that is podcasting, but it'sjust been repackaged so many
times now that it feels likethere's just this, like, banal
(27:46):
everything. And I'm trying tothink, like, every kind of
creative thing I can think of,like, okay. Well, if we
shouldn't be in front of ourmicrophones, maybe we should be
out talking with our phones likethis, but everyone's doing that
too. And these have all thenbeen repurposed by infomarketers
who then even have a cheesier,worse version of this. And I
(28:06):
think consumers are eventuallyjust gonna be like, blah.
Like, enough of this pseudopodcasting thing. But then it
that's gonna where does thatleave real podcasters?
Jeremy (28:20):
Yeah. So I think the thing to keep in mind here is
people have different jobs thatthey want done. This is our,
okay, episode one of the newseason. We're already bringing
back jobs to be done. Yeah.
Perfect. Check that off thelist. Yeah. And I think that
podcasting does a very differentjob than YouTube does. And so I
and I'm sure you do too.
And I'm sure almost everybodylistening to this listens to
(28:42):
podcasts and they watch YouTubevideos and they might also
follow content on social media.And probably if you study your
own habits and your own feelingsand impulses, you probably
recognize that you reach for acertain tool or platform at
different times for differentthings. And so for whatever
reason, I I listen to podcastswhen I walk to the coffee shop
(29:02):
or just go out for a walk ingeneral. Makes sense. It's audio
only and, you know, a lot ofthese shows are on YouTube as
well, but I like the audioversion because I can go out for
a walk and have them in my ears.
I never listen to audio contentwhen I'm in my house. I will put
YouTube on and I'll have it onmy computer while I'm eating
lunch or not really on the TV,but I might have it on the iPad
or things like that. And then Idon't really do social media
(29:23):
that much. So I don't reallyhave the the clip based. But I
think that there is something,even for shows that are
available on both platforms,there's something that I expect
from podcasting that there is aa category of content that I
have a different associationwith than I do with YouTube.
Now both of us are of ademographic that is different
than, you know, your kids are.And so they may not have that
(29:45):
distinction, but I think that itstill will exist. That is
something where there's stillgoing to be this ongoing, at the
podcast industry level, kind ofeducation of, like, what
podcasts do that video doesn't.And I I think
Justin (29:57):
the feeling that a lot of people in
Jeremy (29:59):
the industry and also creators feel is, like, they
just have to rush to doingvideo, doing maybe shorter form,
whatever the algorithm isactually going to reward. But I
think there's actually anempowering stance to say, like,
hey, there is a subset of peoplewho don't want that. And it's
not that they don't watchYouTube. It's that they want a
different type of contentexperience than YouTube. And I
(30:20):
think that the thing withbasically all marketing is
understanding, like, positioningand counter positioning.
And so you kinda hinted atbefore that there
Charles Duhigg (30:27):
is this going to be
Jeremy (30:28):
this counter cultural reaction that's already
happening. And I am very curiousto see which podcasters and
which shows, how how they areable to plant their flag firmly
in the side of podcasting. Thatmight be video. It might be
discoverable by algorithm, butthey're creating an experience
that is markedly different fromwhat you expect from YouTube.
And so maybe there it's a slowerpace and it's like that's
(30:49):
something that actually is builtinto their positioning.
They're saying like, hey, in aworld that is trying to go more
short form, we're actually goingto do this in-depth nuance thing
that there is a significantnumber of people who actually
want this. They don't want thefifteen minute YouTube version
or the five minute YouTubeversion or the one minute TikTok
version. They want the two and ahalf hour long version that gets
way into the weeds and goes waymore in-depth and way more
(31:10):
nuanced. And so I think thatcreators should be thinking
about, like, what doespodcasting do that YouTube
doesn't? And if that's what Iwanna create, like, I need to go
all the way on that side ofthings.
I can't just be, like, wafflingbetween, well, I kinda wanted to
do with you on YouTube, but Ialso wanna do this thing and you
get stuck in the middle. And soI think it's important to
understand, like, the dynamicshere of, like, what do people
expect from a podcast? What dopeople like from the experience
(31:31):
of a podcast? And then if youwanna go to YouTube and the
algorithmically driven route,what do people expect from that
type of content and what arethose algorithms reward? So I
think that kind of decision isone of the first places of,
like, where you wanna play andhow you wanna, leverage these
platforms.
Justin (31:44):
As you're talking, it was just bringing up all sorts
of thoughts and ideas. JamesCrindlin has this great quote
where he says, we need to marketpodcasting as the content you go
for when your eyes are busy orsomething like that. And I think
this kind of positioning ofpodcasting, of saying, what is
podcasting and audio podcastingin particular good at? What is
(32:07):
it good for? And remindingpeople about that.
But also, we've got theseyounger generations, Gen z and
Gen alpha or whatever. They'regonna need to be educated, And
we need to think of creativeways to sell them on audio
podcasting. And one could be,hey, you your brain needs a
(32:30):
break. You need some calm. Youfeel like you've had too much
sugar.
Like, here's an idea. Put youryour AirPods in, go for a walk,
and listen to this show. Andthis show is going to be like a
companion for you. It's gonna betalking about the issues and
(32:51):
feelings and situations in yourlife that you're contemplating
right now. It's going to add toyour life in a totally different
way.
In the same way that you mightsell someone on meditation, I
think there's a version of thisof podcasting is the calm
alternative. When you need toget out of the house and you
just want to go for a walk oryou wanna go for a drive or
(33:15):
you're gonna do the dishes,like, your eyes are busy. And
here's something you can put inyour ears that can educate you,
that can inform you, that canentertain you, but in a way
that's not gonna make you feelsick. Yep. So much of, like,
good content, like good comedy,good whatever, is articulating
(33:36):
the thing that people arefeeling, but they haven't
articulated for themselves.
That's the way you can play inthese arenas or at least one
approach.
Jeremy (33:48):
Alright. So one last spicy take here, before we close
this one out here. I have thisthought that there's this
decision of, like, do I want to,you know, go all in on YouTube?
Do I want to really play thealgorithmic game? My stance here
is that, to some extent,algorithms reward the same
things that people do.
And they are partially designedthis way. They're trying to
(34:10):
surface stuff that people willclick on. And as you pointed out
earlier, a lot of stuff thatalgorithm surface kind of speaks
to the lizard brain, the kind oflike basest emotions of
ourselves. But when we thinkabout, if you look at what
YouTubers talk about when theytalk about succeeding with the
algorithm, They talk about thetitles and the thumbnails of
their videos. And they basicallysay, if I can't create a
(34:32):
thumbnail and title that I knowpeople will click on, I don't
create the video.
And so my take here is thatpodcasters could actually apply
exactly that to their shows now.And even in the absence of
algorithms, if they're scrollingthrough Pocket Cast, somebody
comes across their show and theysee a a really compelling title
that is really clickable andmaybe some custom episode art
that is also really clickable,they're gonna get more listeners
(34:53):
that way as well. And so italmost doesn't matter if
algorithms exist or not. Youshould still be doing the things
that algorithms reward.
Justin (35:00):
Here's my counter on that. I had this experience the
other day where I listened to ana podcast from an expert, and I
just, like, was so impressedwith them. And I said, oh, I
gotta find out what you know,their other stuff. And I
searched their name, found theirYouTube channel. And their
(35:22):
YouTube channel was full ofmister beast style thumbnails,
like cheesy, attention grabbing,whatever.
And it just diminished myrespect for this person
immediately. Yes. It felt likeall of the authority and poise
and, you know, respect I hadgarnered for this person was
(35:46):
gone in an instant because theywere trying to play this game.
And in my head, I'm like, youdon't need to do this. You don't
need to play this game.
You don't have to have thatattention grabbing thumbnail.
People are going to search youout. They're gonna see your
YouTube channel. Make thatYouTube channel classy. And it's
(36:08):
made me think about my ownstuff.
Like, I've tried to play thisthumbnail game as well, and I go
back to my YouTube channel. AndI look at it, and I'm like, it's
embarrassing. It's like, ugh.Why? Why?
The truth in what you're sayingis that obviously, titles
matter. Headlines have matteredsince the newspaper age. You
(36:29):
know, a book title matters. Thefirst sentence of a chapter in a
book matters. So these things domatter.
Maybe my tweak on it will be,let's be careful that we don't
discount or degrade the qualityof what we're doing by slapping
some cheesy infomercial graphicon it. Let's give it the class
(36:55):
that it probably deserves. Andin the long run, if you're
trying to attract an audiencethat kind of knows and respects
you, you need to be doing thingsthat garner respect. So, yes,
think about the headline. But, Imean, I've had tons of pushback
on kind of clickbait headlinesthat I've used.
(37:18):
And maybe sometimes it's fine.But one thing that we don't see
in churn stats for podcastlistenership or YouTube watching
or whatever is just how muchthose activities end up harming
us long term. You often don'tsee how many people are there,
like, I'm just sick of thisaltogether. You know? And if we
(37:38):
can be a refreshingcounterculture voice in these
places, and it might just mean,you know what?
I'm not gonna use that Mr. Beastthumbnail technique. I'm gonna
go counterculture and I'm justgonna have something that truly
represents the taste that I'mbringing to this show.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.