June 1, 2025 • 46 mins
This one is very different - and super special.
I sat down in front of a packed room with author, broadcaster and journalist Julia Baird at the Words on the Waves Writers Festival to talk about her new book Bright Shining.
Julia’s work has changed lives and given so many people the courage to keep going. In this chat, we look at the big ideas that shape her writing – awe, grace, and the power of compassion.
From a nurse’s gentle touch to a father’s act of forgiveness, these stories are AMAZING!
Huge thanks to our Patreon Subscribers! ❤️
Get bonus episodes and more for $10 a month at http://podvan.com.au/members
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
With rabbit Hey, I'm Rabbit. I record this podcast inside a
cute little retro caravan from 1967 that I tore around all over
the place. Fan podcast with rabbit Hey, 2
quick things just before we get started.
Did you know that these are video episodes now?
I mean, if you're watching this then yes, you know that.
But if you're not watching it, you could be seeing the guests
(00:24):
that I'm chatting to in the episode.
The video episodes are only available on Spotify.
And the other thing is, is did you know there's a Patreon
members page? I haven't mentioned it for a
while and I've recently had a couple of people sign up saying
I didn't even know this was a thing.
So there's like over 200 bits ofbonus content in there.
There's weekly bonus episodes with Julie that are only for
Patreon members and it's 10 bucks a month.
(00:47):
So if you want to join up, you just go to podvan.com dot AU
slash members. And thank you so much for all of
your support. I really do appreciate it.
Let's get to the episode. Oh man, if you are watching this
on Spotify, then you get to see exactly how tired.
I don't remember packing these bags and popping them right
underneath my eyes. So I've just been a massive
(01:09):
weekend. I was invited down to the
Writers Festival, the Words on the Waves festival at U Minor,
and it was to interview Julia Baird, who is my guest for this
episode. So she's amazing.
She's a author, broadcaster, journalist.
She's done so many incredible things, which you actually hear
about in her new book, so that her previous book was
(01:29):
Phosphorescence, which was absolutely huge.
And then this one, her new one is called Bright Shining and
it's all about grace. And if you don't know what grace
is, you will by the end of this chat.
So this is the actual chat that we had up on stage.
I was interviewing her in front of an absolutely packed room.
(01:50):
Julia's amazing. I think you're really going to
love this chat. Enjoy.
Before we get started, would youmind if I asked everyone in the
room how many people have read the book?
Oh. That's awkward, and that's the
way I like this stuff. Who would like to read the book?
Who would like to read the book?Because I only just found out
last night, I presumed everyone in the room will have read the
book and wants to come along andfind out more and ask questions.
(02:11):
And a friend of mine said Oh no there's people will potentially
buy tickets to sessions and things and then just come along
and want to hear from authors. Can I ask who's read the book
and who? Ha, I can't ask both who's read
the book Got. Two hands up.
There and so the rest of you have not read the book yet.
(02:32):
I guarantee you will after this.It is a book that the world
needs right now. It's life changing.
It's changed my life through reading this book.
And I was telling Julia about some of those things backstage.
We will get into those. Just before we do get into it, I
want to jump back and surprise you with something.
Actually, sorry again. I had a friend tell me about
(02:56):
something where few years back she was in a horrible place
mentally and you reached out to her and offered her a copy of
your book. You said I'd like to send you my
book because I do you know who it is.
What's it? Well, as I say, how many do you
do this to? And this person I was speaking
(03:16):
to last night and she said to me, that's actually a really
brave thing to do because she's an author herself and can seem
kind of my book. Could really.
Help you? I know I right.
I know you have to temper it. She responded with I have your
book. I love it.
And I've got the audio book, andI love it.
And she'd been through it many, many times.
(03:37):
And yes, it did help her. Oh, Julie Goodwin.
Yes. Yeah.
So yes, that's right. No, you know what?
Because I saw her on Master Chefand crying about things she'd
been through. And I was so affected by that,
you know, because everyone lovesJulie Goodwin.
And I was like, oh, you poor love.
Like, I know what it's like to be in time.
(03:58):
So like, they're really dark andreally horrible.
And obviously I'm not like a psychologist or psychiatrist or
lifestyle guru, but I, I, when I, when I was coming out of it,
such a dark place, I wrote aboutit and I wrote about what got me
through. So that's why I was like, I
wonder if I could, I, I asked you if I could send it to her.
And then I discovered that she'dbeen ocean swimming and she's
(04:20):
here. That was what she said last
night. That's so great.
Yeah, that makes me really happy.
But I know that probably does sound pretentious to send it,
but absolutely not. I was just hoping she might find
something in it. I was just very moved by how
open and vulnerable she was, I think.
So that's phosphorescence the the first book, this one here
deals with grace and acts of grace.
(04:42):
And I didn't even know what thatwas until I did, but I didn't
know it was called that right until reading the book.
I think of what you did there inreaching out to Julie.
It's it's brave to actually do that, to put yourself out there.
And like Julie said last night, she said you just quite a
vulnerable, you could feel very vulnerable doing it.
(05:03):
But it was actually an act of grace yourself because it
really, yeah, it touched her. You do it.
Yeah. Oh, that's thank you for telling
me that. There's so many things about the
the impact that that first book and we'll we'll get to bright
shining in just a second. But just going going back a bit,
I know that in this book you talked about the impact it had
on some people and the things that they would say to you like
(05:25):
people would read it to someone on their deathbed and.
Be buried with it those kinds ofthings yeah someone just
recently had lunch my best friend had lunch with someone
who said I I didn't commit suicide because of that book and
that because that that alone that alone is why you write
would write you know I mean thatthat alone is so to think that
(05:48):
you could be with someone and they're most intensely lonely
and dark period and say but the the light might appear that just
you just just hold on another and you know what you're not
alone and people have walked this or crawled this or slid
bumpily down this park before yeah because.
That's one of the toughest things, isn't it?
(06:09):
Because at that time, yeah. Because you're so in your own,
you can feel so alone, and I canreally help knowing that you're
not. And that can come from a book.
Yeah, exactly. It's that's, I mean, that's one
of the greatest things about reading, right, Is that, you
know, you're not a A very well, maybe you might still remain a
strange person, but you realize there's other strange people out
(06:31):
there. Oh.
So many, I could point them out to you, but how do you deal with
that when when you hear some of these really heavy things that
people have said to you about the book?
Yeah. What is that?
How do you process that? Yeah, as I said, it's like it's
like an honour to be with someone in that period.
(06:52):
Like it's got nothing to to do with me.
You're just telling stories about getting through and that
it's possible to get through. So when I wrote Phosphorescence
I, I was really conscious of a couple of things.
Firstly, I didn't want to write about an another book about
happiness. There's lots of books about
happiness. You get a little bit happier,
(07:12):
you know, You know, we all know what to do.
You have your smoothies, you go for walks, you see your mates.
You know what I mean? Just yeah.
All that stuff. We, we know I wanted to write
about what you do when you don'twant to get out of bed.
When, when it's an effort to even walk down the corridor,
when you're so in pain, you're like, why?
When you're dealing with immensegrief or immense suffering.
(07:35):
And it almost everyone in this room will have been touched by
that in some way. They will have lost someone.
They will have faced significanthealth challenges.
And I wanted to kind of go to that exact point and to write
about the fact that I had been amazed by what got me through.
And that still gets me through, which was honestly this pursuit
of awe and wonder and opening yourself up to the world and
(07:56):
paying attention to the world. And another thing that I was
acutely conscious of was I didn't want to say it to come
across because I speak so much about ocean swimming and
immersion in the natural world and ore, which I'm big advocate
of ore because I think it's, I think it's stitching more into
your life is incredibly life changing.
But I didn't want to come acrosslike, oh, you know, your
(08:19):
husband's just died or you've had this terrible diagnosis.
Something awful has happened. Just go and sit under a tree or
go and jump in the ocean. Even though those things are
good to do, I didn't want to appear like they were really
facile solutions to really intense problems.
I wanted to say life is really hard and we have got so much to
(08:40):
get through like ourselves on anindividual level, let alone
collectively as humanity right now.
Work out what it is that makes you strong and do that.
And for me, pursuing awe made mestrong in a way that was kind of
magical and very surprising to me.
(09:00):
At the start of the book, I don't I I'm not going to ruin
anything for those who haven't read it.
I can't believe he dies. Like I survived.
Kidding. Like I say, I went into it not
really knowing what Grace was, and you start off talking about
that. Yeah, the first chunk of the
(09:20):
book actually is. What is this thing?
What is Grace? Yeah.
Because a lot of it is about being able to not put your
finger on that. A lot of authors and writers go,
I don't know, I've seen it, I like it, I know when it shows
up, but I don't know exactly what it is.
So I was really trying to work out what it was.
I actually thought that's what the whole book was going to be,
(09:42):
but. What is this?
Thing just a massive book of andthat's what Grace is, which it
kind of is, but through stories,incredible stories.
But can you explain then for those who haven't read the book?
Yeah, I mean, you must be able to sum it up by now.
Yeah, but can I just? Like 6 words.
Oh no, I'm kidding. I was.
About to do a lot more but but before I get to the definition,
(10:03):
can I explain kind of where it came from?
Because when I'm looking when I was doing all this study of ore,
ore making is something that makes you stop in your tracks
and marvel at the world and feelsmall.
Like seeing ocean, seeing, you know, whale's breach or seeing a
tiny plant bloom in your garden or watching Magpies sing or
(10:27):
whatever. Like everyone has their own
forms of ore. But it is about paying attention
to the world. And I saw this research about
how good it is for your mental health, for your physical
health. And again and again and again,
these studies have shown that and also how it makes people
altruistic, much more connected to other people.
They feel more like inhabitants of the earth.
(10:48):
And so in thinking about it, I became very interested in this,
this one question after I'd written Phosphorescence and that
was out. I was looking at, well, how is
it that most people experience war?
And you would think, especially all of you living here in this
incredible beauty, he'd think itwas it was nature.
And there was a guy called DashaKeltner who did a study of 26
(11:11):
people from 26 countries, 2600 people.
And he got them all to write a journal talking about when they
experienced or, and it could be art, architecture, you know,
going to see your favorite football team, what they call
collective effervescence. It could be in protests, it
could be in trees, whatever. And he found that the number one
way that people experience all is by seeing acts of beauty in
(11:36):
each other. It's in other people, great
kindness, generosity, decency, overcoming of obstacles.
And that really struck me because I felt like we don't
talk about that very much. And when we do, it seems
sentimental or naive, you know, and not to say, well, this is
the important stuff that infectsus and uplifts us and keeps our
(11:59):
whole society going, so. It's actually been measured you
to wear that in the book spoiler.
I say things and then I say spoiler.
That's the wrong way to do it. It's not really spoiler, but it
has it's been measured in people.
The actual what seeing like things like acts of grace and
how it's and even on teenagers. Yep.
Your mood, the inflammation, alldifferent kind of physical
(12:22):
metrics at all, of course. I thought what you thought
you're referring to then is a lot of scientists look at
goosebumps and that's a measure of when you experience or.
A scientific measure. It's a scientific measure.
So we both got goosebumps talking before and I was like,
there it is. I really try to clock it when I
experience that now. So I started to try to think.
(12:42):
That's why I started to write about, to write bright shining
because I was like, what is thisthing that we see in each other?
What happens when you experienceit?
And to me, the fundamentals of grace, to get to your
definition, is really loving, kind of the unlovable giving
acts of generosity and kindness and decency to people who don't
(13:03):
necessarily deserve it. It's caring in a way that
doesn't expect return. It's mercy.
It's not merit. For example, you're at a
hospital, someone comes in with a broken leg and you don't go.
So who did you vote for in the last election?
Where do you live? Who are you?
It'll be a strange start to the.Imagine I'm not inconceivable
(13:27):
actually, but imagine like for example, I've got a whole
chapter on blood donors. Who donates blood here.
Oh my gosh, so many. So I just find that the most
profound and amazing thing to do.
And when I speak to blood donor experts, they're like, oh, we
don't even we can't even fully understand it why people do
that. So you go and you get jabbed
(13:48):
with a needle and you asked all these intrusive private
questions and your actual blood is taken and you don't know who
that's going to go to. Could be a complete jerk.
Could be to someone who in real life you just think, wow, you
would almost cross the street toavoid them.
But you were doing it because there's a human in need and and
it's something that you've got can help them walk longer or
(14:09):
further or live longer. And there's something I think
incredibly profound in that. My wife has only just started
donating blood because she had mad cow disease.
Yeah, or she didn't. She lived in England while that
was a thing or something. You love saying that, don't you
minded it? My wife Matt, I just asked her,
do you give, oh, you can't. The mad cow disease, That's
(14:31):
right. Once she did, she said there's
this really cool thing that happens now where she was
getting, I think it was text messages coming through letting
her know that her blood was on its way down to Vic.
Oh wow. Or.
Something like that. She was getting updates on where
her blood was being sent. That's.
Kind of wild, but it's really then does it fade out once it
tells you what person it goes to?
Like, you know what I mean? It's landed in the hospital and
(14:53):
then silence. And I've had a lot of blood
transfusions. And the first time I had it, I
will actually never forget it. Like it's like this wild.
It was post surgery and I had this nurse who was holding my
hand and she was whispering awayto me.
And by the way, she used to be the Sydney Morning Herald, which
I've written for, for a long time.
And there was another nurse there.
I don't know. I don't know who's going to see
(15:13):
David Meyer in a moment, but there was another nurse there
who there was one night I was crying and I actually hadn't
cried for ages, but my kids camein to visit me and I had this
big surgery and then their dad had to take them home.
Like just, I only had half an hour with them and I just cried
when they left. And this nurse comes in and goes
and he's rubbing my arm really forcefully to try to like
(15:36):
reassure me and was going, no, don't hang in there.
You are a strong and intelligentwoman, just like David Ma.
Every time I see him, I remind him of this in my dark moment.
There he was, two of us. Anyway, we got through US strong
(15:58):
and intelligent women. But so I I did have a nurse
holding onto my hand when that transfusion was going through
me. And it is kind of a magical
process. It's both mundane, it happens
everyday and completely astonishing.
Like giving birth. Like is there anything more awe
inspiring than actually producing a human?
Nurses are incredible, yes. And there's a section in the
(16:21):
book where you talk about a couple of nurses during the
pandemic. Oh yeah.
And actually, your book has affected me in so many ways.
There was something that I did because of this nurses story,
but. What was?
It I died, I, I'll tell you in a, in a podcast that I was
(16:45):
recording with someone the otherday and ex ambo who's now out
with because of PTSD. We got chatting and I told him
about the thing that I did because of your book.
And I started crying. And it's the first time I've
cried in seven years because I've been on these anxiety meds
that actually make it that I, I can't cry physically can't cry.
And that was really confusing when that happened.
(17:07):
You got to the bit where you talked about the nurse who had
someone in a a shop. She stopped at a shop.
She was all in a Oh yeah scare. And the lady said to her, I
didn't know you were just a nurse.
Yeah. And so she went home and, well,
you tell the story. Yeah, I should be reading it
from my book now. I was there's.
There are a couple of things I'dlike you to read from the book,
but I'd take note of the pages. Luckily we've got one up there
(17:28):
now. I need to remember.
I'll find it where it is. Oh, great chat.
I'll find it. He's read it most recently.
I'll tell you while you're looking that up, I can talk
about the Brazilian. The Brazilian one.
Did you want to get to that? I.
Just went to look for the the search function.
Are we on the Wi-Fi? Everything is OK.
(17:50):
Do you find yourself in it like Trinity?
Yeah. Zooming on cages Stay.
Zooming. Yeah, yes, the Brazilian one
first, if you can, about the. While you while you're looking
for life without the, without the search function.
Yeah. So obviously one of the worst
things of the pandemic was the time that we the the fact that
we couldn't go in and be with people who were really ill in
hospital and dying in hospital. And nurses, apart from
(18:13):
everyone's families and obviously the people that were
suffering in that way, nurses found it very difficult as well
to kind of witness that and knowthat these people were alone.
And there were these two nurses in Brazil who were on their
lunch hour and talking about it and how difficult it was.
And in Brazil, the Prime Minister had just said, Nah,
that's just this. It's just a flu.
(18:34):
And before you knew it, completely out of control.
Hospitals overwhelmed really high rate of COVID in that
country. So they decide they have
remembered some technique they'dheard about in some nursing
training course and they what decided to put it into action
when they went back in. And it's kind of hard to
explain, but. I found that section OK they.
(18:54):
Got a pair of like those, those rubber gloves and they filled
them with water and kind of knotted them at the fingers with
warm water and then knotted themat the end and then slid them
over that person's hand. And so it felt like their hands
were being held. And I managed to track them down
in Brazil with the help of one of my friends.
(19:15):
And they said the amazing thing about it was, and I called them
the hands of love or the hands of God.
It got some media attention. It was the amazing thing was
that it immediately had an impact on their vitals, their
oxygen perfusion and a range of other things.
And obviously this is a rubber glove and some warm water.
(19:36):
But actually it was the act of love from a stranger as well
that was physically having an impact on people.
And it brought it to other, theybrought it to other hospitals in
the area as well. And to me, that was just such a
beautiful example of people caring for others.
And, and they just said to me, you know, this, this was
someone's wife, daughter, uncle,aunt, colleague, someone who
(19:58):
needed to be loved in that moment.
And I found that incredibly moving, actually.
Oh, we've got Caitlin. 'S got one.
Do you want to read the whole thing?
Oh, I can. I'll read part of it because.
It's quite long. Yeah, it is quite long, Caitlin.
Brassington is her name, and I have to say, are there any
nurses here? I love nurses so much.
Oh, we've got one over here. Hello.
And I've spent a lot of time in hospitals and I'll spend a lot
(20:20):
of time watching nurses and the way they anticipate your pain
when you can't articulate it, the way they paper over like
1,000,000 little indignities, the way they'll just come in
quietly and look after you. And when they're exhausted.
And I've seen people yell at them.
I've seen people be in fevers orangers or like various
psychosis, you know, and, and, and day after day they deal with
(20:43):
that stuff. And I just think nurses cannot
be thanked enough and should be paid more.
Just quietly, also loudly. Thank you.
I mean, who else has been in that situation that when you're
in hospital and you're watching,like, is there any more
important work? Is it name me more important
work than what they're actually doing?
(21:03):
So Caitlin's like got three kids, left them at home and
she's running off to the to grabsome food on her way back from
work. Bumps into someone.
She oh, you just didn't know youwere just a nurse.
And I've helped babies into the world, many of whom needed
assistance to take their first breath, and yet I'm just a
nurse. I've held patients hands and
ensure their dignity while they take their last breath, and yet
(21:26):
I'm just a nurse. I've counseled grieving parents
after the loss of a child and yet I've performed CPR on
patients, brought them back to life, and yet I'm just a nurse.
I have been. She's a lecturer in a School of
Medicine. Her patients advocate in a
health system that does not always put her patients best
(21:46):
interests 1st. And yet just a nurse.
I can take blood, cannulate and suture A wound.
I can manage a cardiac arrest inan in a newborn, a child or an
adult. I can tell you the dosage of
adrenaline or amiodarone based on weight that your child may
need to bring them back to life,and yet yet I'm just a nurse.
(22:08):
I provide comfort, compassion, emotional and social support to
patients and their families in their darkest times, and yet I'm
just a nurse. I have been screamed at, vomited
on, and urinated on, but I stillcome to work and do my job and
yet I'm just a nurse. I have the experience, knowledge
and competence that is saved andwill continue to save people's
(22:30):
lives. And yet, just a nurse.
So yes, lovely acquaintance in the corner store.
If I'm just a nurse, then I'm ridiculously proud to be one.
Say yes. So I don't want to say.
This next bit because I've got emotions now, but I stepped.
(22:53):
I can't do it. I stepped off the treadmill and
shot my sister a text. Can you just.
Oh well I sent this to my sister.
Oh just FYI when I tell people my sister is a nurse, I'm proud
(23:16):
but. What a beautiful.
Brother No. But The thing is, and that's why
I wanted to bring it up, is yourbook made me do that.
That's so powerful. But that's.
There already in you. It just made you stop to think
about it but. That's the thing, right?
It's recognizing those things and then acting on them.
(23:39):
Yeah, yeah, honouring it, really, Yeah.
And so the more. The more examples that you see
of it, and it talks about that in the book about it's catchy.
Yeah, it's. Infectious.
Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of stuff, there's
a social scientists call this moral elevation.
And if you're interested in thisor you're running any
(24:00):
organisations, there's a whole bunch of articles on this and
the Harvard Business Review. It's about will the impact on
people of watching, especially in a workplace or organization,
of watching someone at the top behave in a way not loudly, not
requiring applause, but in a waythat is like selfless or devoted
or dedicated or cutting someone's slack.
(24:23):
Yeah. What that can mean for everyone
around you. And, and it, it is incredibly
infectious. And that's why I'm so intent on
us talking about it more becauseI think that now we're in a time
when social media is highlighting the worst of who we
are and in a way, telling us we're worse than we are, I
think. And we forget that beauty.
We forget what we're capable of when we don't necessarily see it
(24:47):
in our leaders. You do sometimes.
Because there's a segment in thebook that I could not believe.
When I got to this section, I went, I saw this clip on the
socials yesterday. I have a very different social
media feed, I think to a lot of people, because I'm, I'm not to
a lot of people. I'm a very positive person.
I don't, I just, I have no time for any of that negative,
(25:10):
horrible stuff. So the algorithm will give you
what you're into. Yeah.
So this clip came up and then when I read about it in the
book, I was like, wow, that's amazing that you're actually
referencing that. It was a clip.
It came up and it said it was essentially addressing the
current political situation in the states.
And it said this is the way political opponents used to
treat each other. Oh.
Did it have? Did it have it had McCain?
(25:32):
And yeah. Oh, right.
You've got a good algorithm. Yeah.
I want that. Yeah, I couldn't believe.
It and I watched the whole thing.
I was like, oh, that is incredible.
I'd never seen it before. And then when I looked it up
online last night, it was 10 years ago.
Yeah, I think yeah. So it's funny that, that, you
know, over 10 years ago, 12. Wasn't that I think 12 was it?
Is it well? Depends which one.
(25:53):
It depends which clip they were,but it's a bit.
If you look back to, there were two of them.
And they were, they were stuck together in the same thing.
Oh so. It was, was it Romney and Obama
and saying it was my wedding anniversary and congratulations
and it's good to be here with you.
Oh. There was that one as well.
K, There were three. Yeah, No, yes, it was that one
where they were speaking beautifully on stage.
But the John McCain. Oh, well, McCain.
(26:15):
So. John McCain, you know, he was a
Republican, was doing the it's atown hall.
And a woman says to him that asking questions, she goes,
Barack Obama, he's a terrorist and he's an Arab.
Now, that was really a common thought at that time.
And then, you know, I'm worried about.
And he says, no, ma'am, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(26:35):
We happen to disagree about whatto do with this country.
But he's a good man and he caresabout this country.
And so do I. And I get slight goosebumps and
I'll talk about, but right. But we're getting it because
that seems to be so rare now in terms of ripping people down.
I, I do actually think our leaders underestimate how much
we want to see that. And we want to see decency and
(26:59):
people just getting together and, I don't know, sorting out
some of our problems instead of creating some more in terms of
the way we talk to each other. And I also did love the way
Obama was one time when he was campaigning for Hillary Clinton.
He was giving a speech and he was being heckled by a Trump
supporter. And the crowd starts yelling at
that Trump supporter and he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no,
(27:20):
everyone, wait. First of all, this man is an
elder. We've got to respect our elders.
Secondly, it looks like he served our country.
He was a veteran and he owes allof our respect for them.
And thirdly, this is not who we are.
You know, like you guys need to focus.
You've got to focus on the rightthing.
It's not about tearing other people down.
And that, again, is so arresting.
(27:43):
And even when we don't see it that much, even though I think
we had a very civil election recently in many ways, which was
wonderful, but even when we don't see it that much, we have
to hold on to that. And in a way kind of demanded I
think was that one. In the book, Yep.
Yeah. Because I was like, that must
have been in the clip as well. I saw that one, yeah.
(28:05):
You're getting confused. I was like you, nearly.
Did it word for word. That's because you wrote it in
the book. OK when bright shining, which
through the entire thing I'm like why did you call it grace?
Why do you it's all about grace.Why do you last chapter.
OK, then I understood, we think.Weirdly is everyone calls it
Grace. It's funny.
Oh yeah, They just say the book.They forget that what its title
was. It's and then you want to say.
(28:26):
Shining bright, but it's bright shining.
Yeah, I mean you. It's not ruining anything.
No to say where bright shining. No, no.
Does anyone know where bright shine?
Not ones who've read the book. Do they wanna know if you?
Say if I said bright shining like the sun.
Does that ring any girls? No.
Amazing Grace. Yeah.
Ha. So because I've, to me, I felt
(28:48):
the grace was very much like thesun in the sense that it, you
know, it warms you. It's a source of so much life.
But up close, it's also gritty and hard and difficult.
It is not about, you know, deciding to forgive someone who
has harmed you, deciding to go on and care for people who
actually don't necessarily deserve it or haven't done
(29:10):
anything to merit it. They're just sick and in front
of you requires grit and requires strength.
And so when people say, oh, grace is very sentimental and
it's just about, you know, Kleenex ads and making someone
biscuits or something, which actually is an excellent form.
I would never put that down. And Joe's biscuits are amazing.
I just had several. So I've always loved that line
(29:31):
in Amazing Grace. Now we've been there. 10,000
talks about being in heaven, bright, shining like the sun,
and I just loved that way of describing the sun.
But I also was really interestedin the in the history of this
hymn so written by a slave trader who then repented and
became an abolitionist. But then that song became was
(29:51):
sung by African Americans as it was a very important amongst
amongst many slaves and against people who were part of the
abolitionist movement. Now, that phrase, that actual
stanza that contains bright shining like the sun was not
written by the original writer of the poem of the hymn, but it
was, it was first recorded in Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet
(30:13):
Beecher Stowe. So it was built upon.
It's this thing of beauty. I think about how we're, we're
we're wretched and kind of seeking some kind of light, but
it's been built upon. And then it's then became a
civil rights anthem. And I found in my research that
it was something people often sang and went to when they had
no words to say. People would sing this song.
(30:36):
I found records of records of people singing it in prison over
and over again when they had nothing else to say.
It was. It's been sung at, you know,
various sites, at the 9/11 memorial site, at the burning of
the Grenfell Towers memorial. Like it's almost like fills in
for a wordlessness another. Obama moment that you talk about
(30:57):
it yeah with that song as well yeah I.
Don't know if any of you have not seen this.
I would recommend going back home and looking this up on
YouTube because Barack Obama hadthis moment as president.
So after Sandy Hook, 20 childrengunned down 6 year olds,
Congress did nothing about guns.And he said, I don't know what
I'm going to do with this, you know, when there's another
(31:18):
massacre because what can I say?What can I possibly say?
We did nothing. Like what?
At what point will we do something?
And then inevitably another massacre.
And he's called to speak at it. And a friend of his, Reverend
Clementa Pinckney, had died at it.
And he's tells this story to Bruce Springsteen in that
Renegades podcast they did together.
(31:38):
And he says driving down there, he was like, I don't know what
to say. But he'd been corresponding with
Marilyn Robinson, the wonderful author, about the idea of grace
being that reservoir of goodnessbeyond which we can do, you
know, good things to each other in the ordinary course of life.
So it's extraordinary goodness done in the ordinary course of
(31:59):
life. And he stood up and he spoke
about grace. And then he pauses and he starts
to sing and he sings Amazing Grace.
And it's so stunning watching this because there's all these
people grieving like it's, it's horrific.
And yet people standing to theirfeet with him and they're kind
(32:21):
of weeping and they're singing. And I felt like he did something
astonishing, which was to say, yes, all of this is bleak and
horrible, but we have to hold onto hope.
We have to hold on to the fact that we can be better and we can
do better. And people rose to their feet
with him. And that to me is a very
remarkable gift to be able to dothat.
(32:44):
Think up. A Mitre Chan have been big
supporters of the pod damn podcast right from the start,
and you get all the stuff from them that you'd expect to you
get plants, you get all the Weber stuff, you get all the
steel here, the amazing principal kitchens, but it's the
stuff that you don't expect likethis lady comes.
In and she's hired a goat but toclear some lands and she wanted
to work out a way how to tether this goat.
(33:06):
I come up with an idea of a bit of stainless steel wire between
2 trees, like a zip line betweenthe two trees to the goat.
She took my. I don't know how it turned out,
but she was very happy with the service that she got.
That's what she got and. The mighty, helpful King
Campbell, mighty Gen. I learned so many things from
this book in talking about the Amazing Grace, the author, the
(33:28):
one who who wrote that and his actual story.
There's a lot in there as well about the big names through
history and the horrible things they did.
Love you. Yet we, and so many of them, I
didn't even know. I only know they're awesome
songs. Oh yeah.
Yeah, you know, dodgy dudes out there.
Dodgy dudes, dodgy dudes. Good chapter name.
(33:48):
Yeah. But I think the big.
Thing what I took from it was that, and you said it in there
we are, we are complex beings and we're not just one thing.
And. There are people who and do
incredible, amazing things and also horrible things.
Yeah. And they could do horrible
(34:08):
things and then actually end up doing amazing things later in
life. And there were a few examples in
there of those. Yeah, I.
Well, I think I was kind of trying to say two things.
One is, yes, we're incredibly complex and people can make
mistakes, and we all make mistakes.
The more conscious you are of your own, the more likely you
are to accept that other people can stuff up and genuine remorse
(34:31):
and redemption. We need to allow for all of
those things. And I wrote a biography of Queen
Victoria, which I absolutely loved doing.
But when you're wrestling with alife, you're, you're, you're not
aiming to judge, you're telling a story, right?
But you're really understanding that a person can be capable of
both incredible tenderness and incredible cruelty all at once
and sometimes on the same day. And how do we assess that and
(34:54):
how do we understand it and whatis the measure and the mark of a
life? But I also, and sometimes I
think we can be too quick to cancel people who just make
mistakes, genuine mistakes and stuff UPS, which I make all the
time. Like we all say stupid things
before breakfast, to paraphrase Alice in Wonderland.
But but I was also trying to saythat when we the forgiveness is
(35:16):
something I really wrestled within this book like that it was
the hardest bit. And I just went deeper and
deeper into it. Because while I've always been
brought up to know that forgiveness is a very powerful
thing and a very important thing, I've also, as a
journalist, reported on victims of domestic violence and sexual
assault. I've seen the concept of
(35:37):
forgiveness be weaponized in certain communities.
And then I think that we are in a context where we're often told
to forgive, but I'll just not even forgive.
Just to let it go, just to let people act.
Just a culture of impunity. That's fine.
I don't know, boys will be boys or these kinds of assaults
happen. All this goes on.
So I wanted to be very careful about that and understand that
(36:00):
this isn't by talking about forgiveness, you're not saying,
oh, everything's tickety Boo andthat it's never free from
consequences. There should be consequences,
especially if there's legal consequences, but that you can
go through a process yourself ofA reckoning or an unburdening
from what someone has done to you.
So I think that's what I was trying to say.
(36:20):
There's some. Incredible examples of people
and I guess that is them. I mean, is that them showing
grace? I think of the the lady down in
Sydney and the the preschool. Oh yeah.
Yeah, so the woman who she was in western Sydney and she was
(36:44):
dropping off one of her kids andshe had a couple of her own kids
in the car and she was got the accelerator and the brake
confused. Or she was reaching down to grab
a water bottle and smashed into the kindergarten and killed two
kids and awful story, just absolutely awful.
(37:04):
And what was amazing in that wasone of the parents, the father
who on the way to his son's funeral, she had in the back.
You could see the green coffin had a was filming something on
the dashboard of his car and saying, I've know that
everyone's attacking this woman and I want you to stop.
(37:25):
She's a widow. This was not something she
intended to do. She's got kids at the school,
she's got kids with disabilities.
She is suffering enough and we forgive her and we will sit down
and we will have a meal with her.
And that was not something he had to do.
He was in the middle of this incredible grief.
And when I followed that court case through and saw that at
(37:46):
that trial, the woman's daughterstood up and said she lives in
hell every single day of her life and she wishes it was her.
You realise how important it is to have those moments of
humanity. I don't think you can never tell
another person to forgive, but Ithink you can allow for the
possibility. One other story I was really
struck by was I did a lot of work on research into
(38:06):
restorative justice. There was one woman who called
Debbie McGrath. So her brother was murdered by
his best friend and she's at home.
She's 24 years old. She gets a call in the middle of
the night. She's heavily pregnant.
Your brother's been killed. And she kind of, there was a
(38:26):
court case and the the friend went to jail for a long time,
but she said she became filled with a kind of hate that
consumed her for 10 years. She couldn't sleep, she got
diabetes. She had all this kind of health
problems. Her father had all these health
problems. She said that she was just
consumed with this hate that shetold me she would look at the be
(38:48):
looking at a sunset and going thinking about the ways in which
she could murder this guy herself.
And eventually she sat down withhim and had a restorative
justice session. And again, they're very
carefully managed these sessions.
There's a lot of preparation being been put in and they
always have to be remorse on thepart of the offender, the person
that caused harm. You can't just go in without
(39:12):
that. And she said, she just said to
him, this is what you did to me,my health, my life, my this is
what you did to my father and went through everything that
happened to him. This is what you did to my
nephew who never had a father grow growing up.
And she said that was weird because at some point she
involuntarily or unconsciously kind of looked around her
(39:33):
because it felt like something had been lifted from her.
She felt like someone had physically lifted something from
her. And she said she she just took
the suitcase of everything he'd done to her and her family and
gave it to him. And she's like, I don't know if
you call that forgiveness. I don't know if you call that a
loosening. I don't know what you call it.
(39:54):
But at that moment she was afraid.
And she said, I can't mentally, she's still there's like, it's
amazing because that's the person that caused me the most
grief. And yet in an encounter with
that person, I was afraid. And what she was most worried
about was that she wouldn't be able to love again.
Because for her, love was represented with loss.
And the last time I spoke to her, she's like loving her
grandchildren and absolutely adoring her.
(40:16):
And I just found that that's nota prescriptive story.
It's not an easy story. It's incredibly difficult.
But I think that we must allow for the fact that those moments
can happen and can transform you.
There's lots of things in there as well about I, I didn't
realise that it was called Grace.
For me it's just cutting other people some slack.
(40:38):
That'd be a slack. True, but that's true.
But that's just a different, that's probably an Aussie way to
put it, yeah. No worries.
So much nicer, but. Tell us about your.
Encounter with the guy downstairs.
I just spotted him up the back of the room actually so.
Our local hero? Yes, I think it's.
(40:58):
Him I haven't got my glasses on.May not even be a man.
Did I see you downstairs? Yeah, it was it.
Can't tell it even better. Oh, now I don't want to.
You're actually a little bit pink.
I, I will. I again, I'll only say it
because it's just for you to show what your book has done
(41:19):
and, and that compounding effectand how, yeah, it is, it's, it's
infectious. So as I was walking in here to
come in and do this chat, I wentaround that way.
And I've come, I walked past thefirst aid room downstairs and I
saw this man in there sitting upfor his days.
He's got his first aid shirt on and setting things up.
(41:40):
And in my mind, I went, what a legend.
And that was all. And, and I walked past and I got
halfway around the side here andI went no.
And I walked back. Around and went in and said, I
just said excuse me. And I went over and shook his
hand and said thank you for everything that you do and and
that was it. And his face lit up.
(42:03):
Thank you. Good.
Sir, thank you for. What you do?
But yeah, I love that. I love.
That though, and I love that youtold me that because is it
honestly, it's just a question of paying attention because
(42:24):
that's in you, you're obviously a very kind and warm and open
person, right? So it's just a question of you
having thinking about it and going, Oh yeah, that look at
look at what that person does every day without big roomfuls
or every weekend without big roomfuls of applause because he
wants to help people. And that is an honourable and
great thing. I was reading this study on awe
(42:45):
this week. It was a new IT was it was the
first study that showed that awehelps mental health.
And it was on long sufferers of COVID actually.
And what I was intrigued by it was that people were taken
through a course of but did theyalways have a sad control group
that doesn't have a good time? But, but if we, that's a good
(43:09):
book, isn't it? We're all the control group
anyway. So then and then there's the
people who you know, were taughtabout or, and they didn't have
to download any apps. There was no actual specific
meditation or things that they had to do.
They just had to like switch their minds and they were taught
to pay attention to the everydayand to their local parks and
(43:31):
their local communities and the things around them.
And the the jump in the impact on those who were depressed in
that group was a very significant.
And I can see why because it's just it you're just going, Oh
yeah. And and you would have seen that
guy before and acknowledged that.
But you just because you're in this mindset, you're just a bit
more likely to go hang on a minute.
(43:52):
That actually is quite an astonishing thing tell you
about. My crazy algorithm in my social
media feed, there's this guy whostarted popping up and I didn't
realise he was here on the Central Coast, I thought.
He must be between. Here and Northern beaches.
His name's Callum and he's to look at him.
He's got mullet. Yeah, I'll say mullet tattoos
(44:13):
all over his face. Yeah.
And he goes around the place trying to put smiles on faces I
think is all he's he's doing. When I'm out on walks I quite
often just want to high 5 people.
I haven't done it yet. OK, that told me don't do it.
It is weird, isn't it? But just seeing like with the
the guy downstairs before seeinghis face like and I walked away
(44:36):
like with goosebumps that and suddenly that felt good.
But you know what? There's the.
Important thing is, is that these are the stories that we
tell and the stories we tell ourchildren, like so many of us
will have seen adolescents and there's so much negativity,
especially with blokes and especially with the Andrew Tate
world. No talk about what?
We don't know your name. We've just talked about you
(44:56):
endlessly. Looks like a Steve.
Richard. Thank you.
Talk about what, Richard? Does and talk about what Callum
does and talk about these peoplethat like selflessly uphold the
community in in all these different ways and the people
that donate blood and the peoplewho work in hospitals and what
they see. This is who we are.
And I think we have to really focus on telling those stories
(45:19):
to understand ourselves better because there's something about
social media that is that is fostering lies about who we are
that I think we have to push back on.
Yeah. Greg Hall.
There are so many amazing moments through the book.
If you haven't read it, the bookand the audio book as well,
(45:39):
because the way you because you read it yourself gives it a
whole new feel as well. Which then I just read the book
in your voice anyway. So after after hearing that, can
I just say. How delightful it has been to be
interviewed by you. You're so thoughtful and
receptive and interested, and Sowhat a joy.
Thank you. Well, thank you.
(46:01):
Actually it's my first time everdoing this.
I've never amazing done anythinglike this.
He might be familiar. With a microphone though, ladies
and. Gentlemen, please thank Julia
Bed.
With rabbit Hey, I'm Rabbit. I record this podcast inside a
cute little retro caravan from 1967 that I tore around all over
the place. Fan podcast with rabbit Hey, 2
quick things just before we get started.
Did you know that these are video episodes now?
I mean, if you're watching this then yes, you know that.
But if you're not watching it, you could be seeing the guests
(00:24):
that I'm chatting to in the episode.
The video episodes are only available on Spotify.
And the other thing is, is did you know there's a Patreon
members page? I haven't mentioned it for a
while and I've recently had a couple of people sign up saying
I didn't even know this was a thing.
So there's like over 200 bits ofbonus content in there.
There's weekly bonus episodes with Julie that are only for
Patreon members and it's 10 bucks a month.
(00:47):
So if you want to join up, you just go to podvan.com dot AU
slash members. And thank you so much for all of
your support. I really do appreciate it.
Let's get to the episode. Oh man, if you are watching this
on Spotify, then you get to see exactly how tired.
I don't remember packing these bags and popping them right
underneath my eyes. So I've just been a massive
(01:09):
weekend. I was invited down to the
Writers Festival, the Words on the Waves festival at U Minor,
and it was to interview Julia Baird, who is my guest for this
episode. So she's amazing.
She's a author, broadcaster, journalist.
She's done so many incredible things, which you actually hear
about in her new book, so that her previous book was
(01:29):
Phosphorescence, which was absolutely huge.
And then this one, her new one is called Bright Shining and
it's all about grace. And if you don't know what grace
is, you will by the end of this chat.
So this is the actual chat that we had up on stage.
I was interviewing her in front of an absolutely packed room.
(01:50):
Julia's amazing. I think you're really going to
love this chat. Enjoy.
Before we get started, would youmind if I asked everyone in the
room how many people have read the book?
Oh. That's awkward, and that's the
way I like this stuff. Who would like to read the book?
Who would like to read the book?Because I only just found out
last night, I presumed everyone in the room will have read the
book and wants to come along andfind out more and ask questions.
(02:11):
And a friend of mine said Oh no there's people will potentially
buy tickets to sessions and things and then just come along
and want to hear from authors. Can I ask who's read the book
and who? Ha, I can't ask both who's read
the book Got. Two hands up.
There and so the rest of you have not read the book yet.
(02:32):
I guarantee you will after this.It is a book that the world
needs right now. It's life changing.
It's changed my life through reading this book.
And I was telling Julia about some of those things backstage.
We will get into those. Just before we do get into it, I
want to jump back and surprise you with something.
Actually, sorry again. I had a friend tell me about
(02:56):
something where few years back she was in a horrible place
mentally and you reached out to her and offered her a copy of
your book. You said I'd like to send you my
book because I do you know who it is.
What's it? Well, as I say, how many do you
do this to? And this person I was speaking
(03:16):
to last night and she said to me, that's actually a really
brave thing to do because she's an author herself and can seem
kind of my book. Could really.
Help you? I know I right.
I know you have to temper it. She responded with I have your
book. I love it.
And I've got the audio book, andI love it.
And she'd been through it many, many times.
(03:37):
And yes, it did help her. Oh, Julie Goodwin.
Yes. Yeah.
So yes, that's right. No, you know what?
Because I saw her on Master Chefand crying about things she'd
been through. And I was so affected by that,
you know, because everyone lovesJulie Goodwin.
And I was like, oh, you poor love.
Like, I know what it's like to be in time.
(03:58):
So like, they're really dark andreally horrible.
And obviously I'm not like a psychologist or psychiatrist or
lifestyle guru, but I, I, when I, when I was coming out of it,
such a dark place, I wrote aboutit and I wrote about what got me
through. So that's why I was like, I
wonder if I could, I, I asked you if I could send it to her.
And then I discovered that she'dbeen ocean swimming and she's
(04:20):
here. That was what she said last
night. That's so great.
Yeah, that makes me really happy.
But I know that probably does sound pretentious to send it,
but absolutely not. I was just hoping she might find
something in it. I was just very moved by how
open and vulnerable she was, I think.
So that's phosphorescence the the first book, this one here
deals with grace and acts of grace.
(04:42):
And I didn't even know what thatwas until I did, but I didn't
know it was called that right until reading the book.
I think of what you did there inreaching out to Julie.
It's it's brave to actually do that, to put yourself out there.
And like Julie said last night, she said you just quite a
vulnerable, you could feel very vulnerable doing it.
(05:03):
But it was actually an act of grace yourself because it
really, yeah, it touched her. You do it.
Yeah. Oh, that's thank you for telling
me that. There's so many things about the
the impact that that first book and we'll we'll get to bright
shining in just a second. But just going going back a bit,
I know that in this book you talked about the impact it had
on some people and the things that they would say to you like
(05:25):
people would read it to someone on their deathbed and.
Be buried with it those kinds ofthings yeah someone just
recently had lunch my best friend had lunch with someone
who said I I didn't commit suicide because of that book and
that because that that alone that alone is why you write
would write you know I mean thatthat alone is so to think that
(05:48):
you could be with someone and they're most intensely lonely
and dark period and say but the the light might appear that just
you just just hold on another and you know what you're not
alone and people have walked this or crawled this or slid
bumpily down this park before yeah because.
That's one of the toughest things, isn't it?
(06:09):
Because at that time, yeah. Because you're so in your own,
you can feel so alone, and I canreally help knowing that you're
not. And that can come from a book.
Yeah, exactly. It's that's, I mean, that's one
of the greatest things about reading, right, Is that, you
know, you're not a A very well, maybe you might still remain a
strange person, but you realize there's other strange people out
(06:31):
there. Oh.
So many, I could point them out to you, but how do you deal with
that when when you hear some of these really heavy things that
people have said to you about the book?
Yeah. What is that?
How do you process that? Yeah, as I said, it's like it's
like an honour to be with someone in that period.
(06:52):
Like it's got nothing to to do with me.
You're just telling stories about getting through and that
it's possible to get through. So when I wrote Phosphorescence
I, I was really conscious of a couple of things.
Firstly, I didn't want to write about an another book about
happiness. There's lots of books about
happiness. You get a little bit happier,
(07:12):
you know, You know, we all know what to do.
You have your smoothies, you go for walks, you see your mates.
You know what I mean? Just yeah.
All that stuff. We, we know I wanted to write
about what you do when you don'twant to get out of bed.
When, when it's an effort to even walk down the corridor,
when you're so in pain, you're like, why?
When you're dealing with immensegrief or immense suffering.
(07:35):
And it almost everyone in this room will have been touched by
that in some way. They will have lost someone.
They will have faced significanthealth challenges.
And I wanted to kind of go to that exact point and to write
about the fact that I had been amazed by what got me through.
And that still gets me through, which was honestly this pursuit
of awe and wonder and opening yourself up to the world and
(07:56):
paying attention to the world. And another thing that I was
acutely conscious of was I didn't want to say it to come
across because I speak so much about ocean swimming and
immersion in the natural world and ore, which I'm big advocate
of ore because I think it's, I think it's stitching more into
your life is incredibly life changing.
But I didn't want to come acrosslike, oh, you know, your
(08:19):
husband's just died or you've had this terrible diagnosis.
Something awful has happened. Just go and sit under a tree or
go and jump in the ocean. Even though those things are
good to do, I didn't want to appear like they were really
facile solutions to really intense problems.
I wanted to say life is really hard and we have got so much to
(08:40):
get through like ourselves on anindividual level, let alone
collectively as humanity right now.
Work out what it is that makes you strong and do that.
And for me, pursuing awe made mestrong in a way that was kind of
magical and very surprising to me.
(09:00):
At the start of the book, I don't I I'm not going to ruin
anything for those who haven't read it.
I can't believe he dies. Like I survived.
Kidding. Like I say, I went into it not
really knowing what Grace was, and you start off talking about
that. Yeah, the first chunk of the
(09:20):
book actually is. What is this thing?
What is Grace? Yeah.
Because a lot of it is about being able to not put your
finger on that. A lot of authors and writers go,
I don't know, I've seen it, I like it, I know when it shows
up, but I don't know exactly what it is.
So I was really trying to work out what it was.
I actually thought that's what the whole book was going to be,
(09:42):
but. What is this?
Thing just a massive book of andthat's what Grace is, which it
kind of is, but through stories,incredible stories.
But can you explain then for those who haven't read the book?
Yeah, I mean, you must be able to sum it up by now.
Yeah, but can I just? Like 6 words.
Oh no, I'm kidding. I was.
About to do a lot more but but before I get to the definition,
(10:03):
can I explain kind of where it came from?
Because when I'm looking when I was doing all this study of ore,
ore making is something that makes you stop in your tracks
and marvel at the world and feelsmall.
Like seeing ocean, seeing, you know, whale's breach or seeing a
tiny plant bloom in your garden or watching Magpies sing or
(10:27):
whatever. Like everyone has their own
forms of ore. But it is about paying attention
to the world. And I saw this research about
how good it is for your mental health, for your physical
health. And again and again and again,
these studies have shown that and also how it makes people
altruistic, much more connected to other people.
They feel more like inhabitants of the earth.
(10:48):
And so in thinking about it, I became very interested in this,
this one question after I'd written Phosphorescence and that
was out. I was looking at, well, how is
it that most people experience war?
And you would think, especially all of you living here in this
incredible beauty, he'd think itwas it was nature.
And there was a guy called DashaKeltner who did a study of 26
(11:11):
people from 26 countries, 2600 people.
And he got them all to write a journal talking about when they
experienced or, and it could be art, architecture, you know,
going to see your favorite football team, what they call
collective effervescence. It could be in protests, it
could be in trees, whatever. And he found that the number one
way that people experience all is by seeing acts of beauty in
(11:36):
each other. It's in other people, great
kindness, generosity, decency, overcoming of obstacles.
And that really struck me because I felt like we don't
talk about that very much. And when we do, it seems
sentimental or naive, you know, and not to say, well, this is
the important stuff that infectsus and uplifts us and keeps our
(11:59):
whole society going, so. It's actually been measured you
to wear that in the book spoiler.
I say things and then I say spoiler.
That's the wrong way to do it. It's not really spoiler, but it
has it's been measured in people.
The actual what seeing like things like acts of grace and
how it's and even on teenagers. Yep.
Your mood, the inflammation, alldifferent kind of physical
(12:22):
metrics at all, of course. I thought what you thought
you're referring to then is a lot of scientists look at
goosebumps and that's a measure of when you experience or.
A scientific measure. It's a scientific measure.
So we both got goosebumps talking before and I was like,
there it is. I really try to clock it when I
experience that now. So I started to try to think.
(12:42):
That's why I started to write about, to write bright shining
because I was like, what is thisthing that we see in each other?
What happens when you experienceit?
And to me, the fundamentals of grace, to get to your
definition, is really loving, kind of the unlovable giving
acts of generosity and kindness and decency to people who don't
(13:03):
necessarily deserve it. It's caring in a way that
doesn't expect return. It's mercy.
It's not merit. For example, you're at a
hospital, someone comes in with a broken leg and you don't go.
So who did you vote for in the last election?
Where do you live? Who are you?
It'll be a strange start to the.Imagine I'm not inconceivable
(13:27):
actually, but imagine like for example, I've got a whole
chapter on blood donors. Who donates blood here.
Oh my gosh, so many. So I just find that the most
profound and amazing thing to do.
And when I speak to blood donor experts, they're like, oh, we
don't even we can't even fully understand it why people do
that. So you go and you get jabbed
(13:48):
with a needle and you asked all these intrusive private
questions and your actual blood is taken and you don't know who
that's going to go to. Could be a complete jerk.
Could be to someone who in real life you just think, wow, you
would almost cross the street toavoid them.
But you were doing it because there's a human in need and and
it's something that you've got can help them walk longer or
(14:09):
further or live longer. And there's something I think
incredibly profound in that. My wife has only just started
donating blood because she had mad cow disease.
Yeah, or she didn't. She lived in England while that
was a thing or something. You love saying that, don't you
minded it? My wife Matt, I just asked her,
do you give, oh, you can't. The mad cow disease, That's
(14:31):
right. Once she did, she said there's
this really cool thing that happens now where she was
getting, I think it was text messages coming through letting
her know that her blood was on its way down to Vic.
Oh wow. Or.
Something like that. She was getting updates on where
her blood was being sent. That's.
Kind of wild, but it's really then does it fade out once it
tells you what person it goes to?
Like, you know what I mean? It's landed in the hospital and
(14:53):
then silence. And I've had a lot of blood
transfusions. And the first time I had it, I
will actually never forget it. Like it's like this wild.
It was post surgery and I had this nurse who was holding my
hand and she was whispering awayto me.
And by the way, she used to be the Sydney Morning Herald, which
I've written for, for a long time.
And there was another nurse there.
I don't know. I don't know who's going to see
(15:13):
David Meyer in a moment, but there was another nurse there
who there was one night I was crying and I actually hadn't
cried for ages, but my kids camein to visit me and I had this
big surgery and then their dad had to take them home.
Like just, I only had half an hour with them and I just cried
when they left. And this nurse comes in and goes
and he's rubbing my arm really forcefully to try to like
(15:36):
reassure me and was going, no, don't hang in there.
You are a strong and intelligentwoman, just like David Ma.
Every time I see him, I remind him of this in my dark moment.
There he was, two of us. Anyway, we got through US strong
(15:58):
and intelligent women. But so I I did have a nurse
holding onto my hand when that transfusion was going through
me. And it is kind of a magical
process. It's both mundane, it happens
everyday and completely astonishing.
Like giving birth. Like is there anything more awe
inspiring than actually producing a human?
Nurses are incredible, yes. And there's a section in the
(16:21):
book where you talk about a couple of nurses during the
pandemic. Oh yeah.
And actually, your book has affected me in so many ways.
There was something that I did because of this nurses story,
but. What was?
It I died, I, I'll tell you in a, in a podcast that I was
(16:45):
recording with someone the otherday and ex ambo who's now out
with because of PTSD. We got chatting and I told him
about the thing that I did because of your book.
And I started crying. And it's the first time I've
cried in seven years because I've been on these anxiety meds
that actually make it that I, I can't cry physically can't cry.
And that was really confusing when that happened.
(17:07):
You got to the bit where you talked about the nurse who had
someone in a a shop. She stopped at a shop.
She was all in a Oh yeah scare. And the lady said to her, I
didn't know you were just a nurse.
Yeah. And so she went home and, well,
you tell the story. Yeah, I should be reading it
from my book now. I was there's.
There are a couple of things I'dlike you to read from the book,
but I'd take note of the pages. Luckily we've got one up there
(17:28):
now. I need to remember.
I'll find it where it is. Oh, great chat.
I'll find it. He's read it most recently.
I'll tell you while you're looking that up, I can talk
about the Brazilian. The Brazilian one.
Did you want to get to that? I.
Just went to look for the the search function.
Are we on the Wi-Fi? Everything is OK.
(17:50):
Do you find yourself in it like Trinity?
Yeah. Zooming on cages Stay.
Zooming. Yeah, yes, the Brazilian one
first, if you can, about the. While you while you're looking
for life without the, without the search function.
Yeah. So obviously one of the worst
things of the pandemic was the time that we the the fact that
we couldn't go in and be with people who were really ill in
hospital and dying in hospital. And nurses, apart from
(18:13):
everyone's families and obviously the people that were
suffering in that way, nurses found it very difficult as well
to kind of witness that and knowthat these people were alone.
And there were these two nurses in Brazil who were on their
lunch hour and talking about it and how difficult it was.
And in Brazil, the Prime Minister had just said, Nah,
that's just this. It's just a flu.
(18:34):
And before you knew it, completely out of control.
Hospitals overwhelmed really high rate of COVID in that
country. So they decide they have
remembered some technique they'dheard about in some nursing
training course and they what decided to put it into action
when they went back in. And it's kind of hard to
explain, but. I found that section OK they.
(18:54):
Got a pair of like those, those rubber gloves and they filled
them with water and kind of knotted them at the fingers with
warm water and then knotted themat the end and then slid them
over that person's hand. And so it felt like their hands
were being held. And I managed to track them down
in Brazil with the help of one of my friends.
(19:15):
And they said the amazing thing about it was, and I called them
the hands of love or the hands of God.
It got some media attention. It was the amazing thing was
that it immediately had an impact on their vitals, their
oxygen perfusion and a range of other things.
And obviously this is a rubber glove and some warm water.
(19:36):
But actually it was the act of love from a stranger as well
that was physically having an impact on people.
And it brought it to other, theybrought it to other hospitals in
the area as well. And to me, that was just such a
beautiful example of people caring for others.
And, and they just said to me, you know, this, this was
someone's wife, daughter, uncle,aunt, colleague, someone who
(19:58):
needed to be loved in that moment.
And I found that incredibly moving, actually.
Oh, we've got Caitlin. 'S got one.
Do you want to read the whole thing?
Oh, I can. I'll read part of it because.
It's quite long. Yeah, it is quite long, Caitlin.
Brassington is her name, and I have to say, are there any
nurses here? I love nurses so much.
Oh, we've got one over here. Hello.
And I've spent a lot of time in hospitals and I'll spend a lot
(20:20):
of time watching nurses and the way they anticipate your pain
when you can't articulate it, the way they paper over like
1,000,000 little indignities, the way they'll just come in
quietly and look after you. And when they're exhausted.
And I've seen people yell at them.
I've seen people be in fevers orangers or like various
psychosis, you know, and, and, and day after day they deal with
(20:43):
that stuff. And I just think nurses cannot
be thanked enough and should be paid more.
Just quietly, also loudly. Thank you.
I mean, who else has been in that situation that when you're
in hospital and you're watching,like, is there any more
important work? Is it name me more important
work than what they're actually doing?
(21:03):
So Caitlin's like got three kids, left them at home and
she's running off to the to grabsome food on her way back from
work. Bumps into someone.
She oh, you just didn't know youwere just a nurse.
And I've helped babies into the world, many of whom needed
assistance to take their first breath, and yet I'm just a
nurse. I've held patients hands and
ensure their dignity while they take their last breath, and yet
(21:26):
I'm just a nurse. I've counseled grieving parents
after the loss of a child and yet I've performed CPR on
patients, brought them back to life, and yet I'm just a nurse.
I have been. She's a lecturer in a School of
Medicine. Her patients advocate in a
health system that does not always put her patients best
(21:46):
interests 1st. And yet just a nurse.
I can take blood, cannulate and suture A wound.
I can manage a cardiac arrest inan in a newborn, a child or an
adult. I can tell you the dosage of
adrenaline or amiodarone based on weight that your child may
need to bring them back to life,and yet yet I'm just a nurse.
(22:08):
I provide comfort, compassion, emotional and social support to
patients and their families in their darkest times, and yet I'm
just a nurse. I have been screamed at, vomited
on, and urinated on, but I stillcome to work and do my job and
yet I'm just a nurse. I have the experience, knowledge
and competence that is saved andwill continue to save people's
(22:30):
lives. And yet, just a nurse.
So yes, lovely acquaintance in the corner store.
If I'm just a nurse, then I'm ridiculously proud to be one.
Say yes. So I don't want to say.
This next bit because I've got emotions now, but I stepped.
(22:53):
I can't do it. I stepped off the treadmill and
shot my sister a text. Can you just.
Oh well I sent this to my sister.
Oh just FYI when I tell people my sister is a nurse, I'm proud
(23:16):
but. What a beautiful.
Brother No. But The thing is, and that's why
I wanted to bring it up, is yourbook made me do that.
That's so powerful. But that's.
There already in you. It just made you stop to think
about it but. That's the thing, right?
It's recognizing those things and then acting on them.
(23:39):
Yeah, yeah, honouring it, really, Yeah.
And so the more. The more examples that you see
of it, and it talks about that in the book about it's catchy.
Yeah, it's. Infectious.
Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of stuff, there's
a social scientists call this moral elevation.
And if you're interested in thisor you're running any
(24:00):
organisations, there's a whole bunch of articles on this and
the Harvard Business Review. It's about will the impact on
people of watching, especially in a workplace or organization,
of watching someone at the top behave in a way not loudly, not
requiring applause, but in a waythat is like selfless or devoted
or dedicated or cutting someone's slack.
(24:23):
Yeah. What that can mean for everyone
around you. And, and it, it is incredibly
infectious. And that's why I'm so intent on
us talking about it more becauseI think that now we're in a time
when social media is highlighting the worst of who we
are and in a way, telling us we're worse than we are, I
think. And we forget that beauty.
We forget what we're capable of when we don't necessarily see it
(24:47):
in our leaders. You do sometimes.
Because there's a segment in thebook that I could not believe.
When I got to this section, I went, I saw this clip on the
socials yesterday. I have a very different social
media feed, I think to a lot of people, because I'm, I'm not to
a lot of people. I'm a very positive person.
I don't, I just, I have no time for any of that negative,
(25:10):
horrible stuff. So the algorithm will give you
what you're into. Yeah.
So this clip came up and then when I read about it in the
book, I was like, wow, that's amazing that you're actually
referencing that. It was a clip.
It came up and it said it was essentially addressing the
current political situation in the states.
And it said this is the way political opponents used to
treat each other. Oh.
Did it have? Did it have it had McCain?
(25:32):
And yeah. Oh, right.
You've got a good algorithm. Yeah.
I want that. Yeah, I couldn't believe.
It and I watched the whole thing.
I was like, oh, that is incredible.
I'd never seen it before. And then when I looked it up
online last night, it was 10 years ago.
Yeah, I think yeah. So it's funny that, that, you
know, over 10 years ago, 12. Wasn't that I think 12 was it?
Is it well? Depends which one.
(25:53):
It depends which clip they were,but it's a bit.
If you look back to, there were two of them.
And they were, they were stuck together in the same thing.
Oh so. It was, was it Romney and Obama
and saying it was my wedding anniversary and congratulations
and it's good to be here with you.
Oh. There was that one as well.
K, There were three. Yeah, No, yes, it was that one
where they were speaking beautifully on stage.
But the John McCain. Oh, well, McCain.
(26:15):
So. John McCain, you know, he was a
Republican, was doing the it's atown hall.
And a woman says to him that asking questions, she goes,
Barack Obama, he's a terrorist and he's an Arab.
Now, that was really a common thought at that time.
And then, you know, I'm worried about.
And he says, no, ma'am, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(26:35):
We happen to disagree about whatto do with this country.
But he's a good man and he caresabout this country.
And so do I. And I get slight goosebumps and
I'll talk about, but right. But we're getting it because
that seems to be so rare now in terms of ripping people down.
I, I do actually think our leaders underestimate how much
we want to see that. And we want to see decency and
(26:59):
people just getting together and, I don't know, sorting out
some of our problems instead of creating some more in terms of
the way we talk to each other. And I also did love the way
Obama was one time when he was campaigning for Hillary Clinton.
He was giving a speech and he was being heckled by a Trump
supporter. And the crowd starts yelling at
that Trump supporter and he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no,
(27:20):
everyone, wait. First of all, this man is an
elder. We've got to respect our elders.
Secondly, it looks like he served our country.
He was a veteran and he owes allof our respect for them.
And thirdly, this is not who we are.
You know, like you guys need to focus.
You've got to focus on the rightthing.
It's not about tearing other people down.
And that, again, is so arresting.
(27:43):
And even when we don't see it that much, even though I think
we had a very civil election recently in many ways, which was
wonderful, but even when we don't see it that much, we have
to hold on to that. And in a way kind of demanded I
think was that one. In the book, Yep.
Yeah. Because I was like, that must
have been in the clip as well. I saw that one, yeah.
(28:05):
You're getting confused. I was like you, nearly.
Did it word for word. That's because you wrote it in
the book. OK when bright shining, which
through the entire thing I'm like why did you call it grace?
Why do you it's all about grace.Why do you last chapter.
OK, then I understood, we think.Weirdly is everyone calls it
Grace. It's funny.
Oh yeah, They just say the book.They forget that what its title
was. It's and then you want to say.
(28:26):
Shining bright, but it's bright shining.
Yeah, I mean you. It's not ruining anything.
No to say where bright shining. No, no.
Does anyone know where bright shine?
Not ones who've read the book. Do they wanna know if you?
Say if I said bright shining like the sun.
Does that ring any girls? No.
Amazing Grace. Yeah.
Ha. So because I've, to me, I felt
(28:48):
the grace was very much like thesun in the sense that it, you
know, it warms you. It's a source of so much life.
But up close, it's also gritty and hard and difficult.
It is not about, you know, deciding to forgive someone who
has harmed you, deciding to go on and care for people who
actually don't necessarily deserve it or haven't done
(29:10):
anything to merit it. They're just sick and in front
of you requires grit and requires strength.
And so when people say, oh, grace is very sentimental and
it's just about, you know, Kleenex ads and making someone
biscuits or something, which actually is an excellent form.
I would never put that down. And Joe's biscuits are amazing.
I just had several. So I've always loved that line
(29:31):
in Amazing Grace. Now we've been there. 10,000
talks about being in heaven, bright, shining like the sun,
and I just loved that way of describing the sun.
But I also was really interestedin the in the history of this
hymn so written by a slave trader who then repented and
became an abolitionist. But then that song became was
(29:51):
sung by African Americans as it was a very important amongst
amongst many slaves and against people who were part of the
abolitionist movement. Now, that phrase, that actual
stanza that contains bright shining like the sun was not
written by the original writer of the poem of the hymn, but it
was, it was first recorded in Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet
(30:13):
Beecher Stowe. So it was built upon.
It's this thing of beauty. I think about how we're, we're
we're wretched and kind of seeking some kind of light, but
it's been built upon. And then it's then became a
civil rights anthem. And I found in my research that
it was something people often sang and went to when they had
no words to say. People would sing this song.
(30:36):
I found records of records of people singing it in prison over
and over again when they had nothing else to say.
It was. It's been sung at, you know,
various sites, at the 9/11 memorial site, at the burning of
the Grenfell Towers memorial. Like it's almost like fills in
for a wordlessness another. Obama moment that you talk about
(30:57):
it yeah with that song as well yeah I.
Don't know if any of you have not seen this.
I would recommend going back home and looking this up on
YouTube because Barack Obama hadthis moment as president.
So after Sandy Hook, 20 childrengunned down 6 year olds,
Congress did nothing about guns.And he said, I don't know what
I'm going to do with this, you know, when there's another
(31:18):
massacre because what can I say?What can I possibly say?
We did nothing. Like what?
At what point will we do something?
And then inevitably another massacre.
And he's called to speak at it. And a friend of his, Reverend
Clementa Pinckney, had died at it.
And he's tells this story to Bruce Springsteen in that
Renegades podcast they did together.
(31:38):
And he says driving down there, he was like, I don't know what
to say. But he'd been corresponding with
Marilyn Robinson, the wonderful author, about the idea of grace
being that reservoir of goodnessbeyond which we can do, you
know, good things to each other in the ordinary course of life.
So it's extraordinary goodness done in the ordinary course of
(31:59):
life. And he stood up and he spoke
about grace. And then he pauses and he starts
to sing and he sings Amazing Grace.
And it's so stunning watching this because there's all these
people grieving like it's, it's horrific.
And yet people standing to theirfeet with him and they're kind
(32:21):
of weeping and they're singing. And I felt like he did something
astonishing, which was to say, yes, all of this is bleak and
horrible, but we have to hold onto hope.
We have to hold on to the fact that we can be better and we can
do better. And people rose to their feet
with him. And that to me is a very
remarkable gift to be able to dothat.
(32:44):
Think up. A Mitre Chan have been big
supporters of the pod damn podcast right from the start,
and you get all the stuff from them that you'd expect to you
get plants, you get all the Weber stuff, you get all the
steel here, the amazing principal kitchens, but it's the
stuff that you don't expect likethis lady comes.
In and she's hired a goat but toclear some lands and she wanted
to work out a way how to tether this goat.
(33:06):
I come up with an idea of a bit of stainless steel wire between
2 trees, like a zip line betweenthe two trees to the goat.
She took my. I don't know how it turned out,
but she was very happy with the service that she got.
That's what she got and. The mighty, helpful King
Campbell, mighty Gen. I learned so many things from
this book in talking about the Amazing Grace, the author, the
(33:28):
one who who wrote that and his actual story.
There's a lot in there as well about the big names through
history and the horrible things they did.
Love you. Yet we, and so many of them, I
didn't even know. I only know they're awesome
songs. Oh yeah.
Yeah, you know, dodgy dudes out there.
Dodgy dudes, dodgy dudes. Good chapter name.
(33:48):
Yeah. But I think the big.
Thing what I took from it was that, and you said it in there
we are, we are complex beings and we're not just one thing.
And. There are people who and do
incredible, amazing things and also horrible things.
Yeah. And they could do horrible
(34:08):
things and then actually end up doing amazing things later in
life. And there were a few examples in
there of those. Yeah, I.
Well, I think I was kind of trying to say two things.
One is, yes, we're incredibly complex and people can make
mistakes, and we all make mistakes.
The more conscious you are of your own, the more likely you
are to accept that other people can stuff up and genuine remorse
(34:31):
and redemption. We need to allow for all of
those things. And I wrote a biography of Queen
Victoria, which I absolutely loved doing.
But when you're wrestling with alife, you're, you're, you're not
aiming to judge, you're telling a story, right?
But you're really understanding that a person can be capable of
both incredible tenderness and incredible cruelty all at once
and sometimes on the same day. And how do we assess that and
(34:54):
how do we understand it and whatis the measure and the mark of a
life? But I also, and sometimes I
think we can be too quick to cancel people who just make
mistakes, genuine mistakes and stuff UPS, which I make all the
time. Like we all say stupid things
before breakfast, to paraphrase Alice in Wonderland.
But but I was also trying to saythat when we the forgiveness is
(35:16):
something I really wrestled within this book like that it was
the hardest bit. And I just went deeper and
deeper into it. Because while I've always been
brought up to know that forgiveness is a very powerful
thing and a very important thing, I've also, as a
journalist, reported on victims of domestic violence and sexual
assault. I've seen the concept of
(35:37):
forgiveness be weaponized in certain communities.
And then I think that we are in a context where we're often told
to forgive, but I'll just not even forgive.
Just to let it go, just to let people act.
Just a culture of impunity. That's fine.
I don't know, boys will be boys or these kinds of assaults
happen. All this goes on.
So I wanted to be very careful about that and understand that
(36:00):
this isn't by talking about forgiveness, you're not saying,
oh, everything's tickety Boo andthat it's never free from
consequences. There should be consequences,
especially if there's legal consequences, but that you can
go through a process yourself ofA reckoning or an unburdening
from what someone has done to you.
So I think that's what I was trying to say.
(36:20):
There's some. Incredible examples of people
and I guess that is them. I mean, is that them showing
grace? I think of the the lady down in
Sydney and the the preschool. Oh yeah.
Yeah, so the woman who she was in western Sydney and she was
(36:44):
dropping off one of her kids andshe had a couple of her own kids
in the car and she was got the accelerator and the brake
confused. Or she was reaching down to grab
a water bottle and smashed into the kindergarten and killed two
kids and awful story, just absolutely awful.
(37:04):
And what was amazing in that wasone of the parents, the father
who on the way to his son's funeral, she had in the back.
You could see the green coffin had a was filming something on
the dashboard of his car and saying, I've know that
everyone's attacking this woman and I want you to stop.
(37:25):
She's a widow. This was not something she
intended to do. She's got kids at the school,
she's got kids with disabilities.
She is suffering enough and we forgive her and we will sit down
and we will have a meal with her.
And that was not something he had to do.
He was in the middle of this incredible grief.
And when I followed that court case through and saw that at
(37:46):
that trial, the woman's daughterstood up and said she lives in
hell every single day of her life and she wishes it was her.
You realise how important it is to have those moments of
humanity. I don't think you can never tell
another person to forgive, but Ithink you can allow for the
possibility. One other story I was really
struck by was I did a lot of work on research into
(38:06):
restorative justice. There was one woman who called
Debbie McGrath. So her brother was murdered by
his best friend and she's at home.
She's 24 years old. She gets a call in the middle of
the night. She's heavily pregnant.
Your brother's been killed. And she kind of, there was a
(38:26):
court case and the the friend went to jail for a long time,
but she said she became filled with a kind of hate that
consumed her for 10 years. She couldn't sleep, she got
diabetes. She had all this kind of health
problems. Her father had all these health
problems. She said that she was just
consumed with this hate that shetold me she would look at the be
(38:48):
looking at a sunset and going thinking about the ways in which
she could murder this guy herself.
And eventually she sat down withhim and had a restorative
justice session. And again, they're very
carefully managed these sessions.
There's a lot of preparation being been put in and they
always have to be remorse on thepart of the offender, the person
that caused harm. You can't just go in without
(39:12):
that. And she said, she just said to
him, this is what you did to me,my health, my life, my this is
what you did to my father and went through everything that
happened to him. This is what you did to my
nephew who never had a father grow growing up.
And she said that was weird because at some point she
involuntarily or unconsciously kind of looked around her
(39:33):
because it felt like something had been lifted from her.
She felt like someone had physically lifted something from
her. And she said she she just took
the suitcase of everything he'd done to her and her family and
gave it to him. And she's like, I don't know if
you call that forgiveness. I don't know if you call that a
loosening. I don't know what you call it.
(39:54):
But at that moment she was afraid.
And she said, I can't mentally, she's still there's like, it's
amazing because that's the person that caused me the most
grief. And yet in an encounter with
that person, I was afraid. And what she was most worried
about was that she wouldn't be able to love again.
Because for her, love was represented with loss.
And the last time I spoke to her, she's like loving her
grandchildren and absolutely adoring her.
(40:16):
And I just found that that's nota prescriptive story.
It's not an easy story. It's incredibly difficult.
But I think that we must allow for the fact that those moments
can happen and can transform you.
There's lots of things in there as well about I, I didn't
realise that it was called Grace.
For me it's just cutting other people some slack.
(40:38):
That'd be a slack. True, but that's true.
But that's just a different, that's probably an Aussie way to
put it, yeah. No worries.
So much nicer, but. Tell us about your.
Encounter with the guy downstairs.
I just spotted him up the back of the room actually so.
Our local hero? Yes, I think it's.
(40:58):
Him I haven't got my glasses on.May not even be a man.
Did I see you downstairs? Yeah, it was it.
Can't tell it even better. Oh, now I don't want to.
You're actually a little bit pink.
I, I will. I again, I'll only say it
because it's just for you to show what your book has done
(41:19):
and, and that compounding effectand how, yeah, it is, it's, it's
infectious. So as I was walking in here to
come in and do this chat, I wentaround that way.
And I've come, I walked past thefirst aid room downstairs and I
saw this man in there sitting upfor his days.
He's got his first aid shirt on and setting things up.
(41:40):
And in my mind, I went, what a legend.
And that was all. And, and I walked past and I got
halfway around the side here andI went no.
And I walked back. Around and went in and said, I
just said excuse me. And I went over and shook his
hand and said thank you for everything that you do and and
that was it. And his face lit up.
(42:03):
Thank you. Good.
Sir, thank you for. What you do?
But yeah, I love that. I love.
That though, and I love that youtold me that because is it
honestly, it's just a question of paying attention because
(42:24):
that's in you, you're obviously a very kind and warm and open
person, right? So it's just a question of you
having thinking about it and going, Oh yeah, that look at
look at what that person does every day without big roomfuls
or every weekend without big roomfuls of applause because he
wants to help people. And that is an honourable and
great thing. I was reading this study on awe
(42:45):
this week. It was a new IT was it was the
first study that showed that awehelps mental health.
And it was on long sufferers of COVID actually.
And what I was intrigued by it was that people were taken
through a course of but did theyalways have a sad control group
that doesn't have a good time? But, but if we, that's a good
(43:09):
book, isn't it? We're all the control group
anyway. So then and then there's the
people who you know, were taughtabout or, and they didn't have
to download any apps. There was no actual specific
meditation or things that they had to do.
They just had to like switch their minds and they were taught
to pay attention to the everydayand to their local parks and
(43:31):
their local communities and the things around them.
And the the jump in the impact on those who were depressed in
that group was a very significant.
And I can see why because it's just it you're just going, Oh
yeah. And and you would have seen that
guy before and acknowledged that.
But you just because you're in this mindset, you're just a bit
more likely to go hang on a minute.
(43:52):
That actually is quite an astonishing thing tell you
about. My crazy algorithm in my social
media feed, there's this guy whostarted popping up and I didn't
realise he was here on the Central Coast, I thought.
He must be between. Here and Northern beaches.
His name's Callum and he's to look at him.
He's got mullet. Yeah, I'll say mullet tattoos
(44:13):
all over his face. Yeah.
And he goes around the place trying to put smiles on faces I
think is all he's he's doing. When I'm out on walks I quite
often just want to high 5 people.
I haven't done it yet. OK, that told me don't do it.
It is weird, isn't it? But just seeing like with the
the guy downstairs before seeinghis face like and I walked away
(44:36):
like with goosebumps that and suddenly that felt good.
But you know what? There's the.
Important thing is, is that these are the stories that we
tell and the stories we tell ourchildren, like so many of us
will have seen adolescents and there's so much negativity,
especially with blokes and especially with the Andrew Tate
world. No talk about what?
We don't know your name. We've just talked about you
(44:56):
endlessly. Looks like a Steve.
Richard. Thank you.
Talk about what, Richard? Does and talk about what Callum
does and talk about these peoplethat like selflessly uphold the
community in in all these different ways and the people
that donate blood and the peoplewho work in hospitals and what
they see. This is who we are.
And I think we have to really focus on telling those stories
(45:19):
to understand ourselves better because there's something about
social media that is that is fostering lies about who we are
that I think we have to push back on.
Yeah. Greg Hall.
There are so many amazing moments through the book.
If you haven't read it, the bookand the audio book as well,
(45:39):
because the way you because you read it yourself gives it a
whole new feel as well. Which then I just read the book
in your voice anyway. So after after hearing that, can
I just say. How delightful it has been to be
interviewed by you. You're so thoughtful and
receptive and interested, and Sowhat a joy.
Thank you. Well, thank you.
(46:01):
Actually it's my first time everdoing this.
I've never amazing done anythinglike this.
He might be familiar. With a microphone though, ladies
and. Gentlemen, please thank Julia
Bed.
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