July 20, 2025 • 47 mins
Well this episode is a little different!
After a reel I made about the NDIS went completely bonkers online, I got quite curious about the whole thing. The universe then delivered Imbi and Darren, old family friends I hadn't seen in 20 years since our kids were in mother's group together.
It turns out they're NDIS Plan Managers (a job I didn't even know existed), but the biggest lesson I learned is that their job title is completely wrong! We talk about the real fee they get paid per client, how providers can rort the system, and why they get so much joy from a job that seems like an absolute nightmare of confusion and spreadsheets.
If you're in the web of the NDIS yourself, or you're a sponge for learning (like me), you'll love this.
Oh, and if you want to get in touch with Imbi and Darren, you can find their fancy new website here: Pure Plan Management
And their instagram here: @pureplanmanagement
Huge thanks to our Patreon Subscribers!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Podcast with Rabbit. I'm Rabbit.
I record this podcast inside a cute little retro caravan from
1967 that I've tore around all over the place.
Fan podcast with Rabbit. Well, welcome into this episode.
I'm gonna do something really different with this one.
And there's a reason why I wanted to do this.
It's essentially because I'm a ridiculously curious creature.
(00:25):
I think this could be really helpful for some people.
You know, Heather Irvine Randallwas in the last episode and
talking all about how your childhood trauma can lead to
adulthood trauma. I've got Adrian Date from Vital
First Aid coming in very soon todo an episode and that's all
about PTSD and he talks about why first aid is vital and it's
(00:47):
really helpful the stuff he does.
Now, something has just happenedin the last couple of weeks with
one of the other podcasts that Iproduced under Pod Van Media.
It's called Beyond the Tube and Fee Roderick, she was talking to
someone about, she's talking about about NDIS and that whole
space and that's gone bonkers. I made a reel out of that,
(01:07):
popped it up online. It's had something like 40,000
views. Man, people are getting fired up
over stuff on both sides. And what that's lead to for me
is I'm just so curious about it.Like why are people so worked up
over it on both sides? What's the massive controversy
and then kind of bumped into, I would say old family friends.
(01:32):
Let me introduce you to them, Imby and Darren.
Hi, you guys, how are you going?Hi, let's start there with the
crazy back story with us. Our kids and myself and your
wife. Yeah.
You used to do mother's group together and play group and sort
of develop from the time the kids were like maybe six months
old. Yeah, I came in a little bit
(01:53):
late behind all the cookies. That's exactly what Sav said.
I said, I've been talking to a lady who says she was in our
mother's group like 20 years agoand she goes who?
And I said, well, this is the thing you you'll rather know.
I mean it's a stand out name. I said Embi no way she why she
(02:13):
she turned up later was kind of like a ring in yeah into the
group was. That and I was like, I am
staying. These guys are really.
Cool. Good group, yeah.
Yeah, my daughter was a little bit younger, like 6 months.
Right. But I just couldn't find that
cool group. Not cool.
But yeah, interesting. And Oh my gosh, with so much
fun. Yeah, I was talking to someone a
little while ago and they were saying about their horrendous
(02:35):
experience with mother's group, and I was just like, oh really?
I thought everyone just had likethe best mother's group.
Apparently not. Not like this one.
This is. Quite a gem and.
They're all still really connected and I'm still going
still here, guys. Yeah, I, I think you mentioned
Sharon, Sharon and Phil and we go around for dinner at their
place and stuff. We still catch up with them.
I know Sharon's just like that person.
(02:56):
I know everyone wants to be she's.
Amazing everyone I know. Why do we have to say it like
that though? Shit, that's creepy.
Actually. Sharon's so incredible.
I wanna have her over to my house and go.
So what would you do? Yeah, yeah.
I don't. Yeah, I would have been like you
even. Her dog is adorable.
I everything, everything about them.
That's just the whole family. Why do I have to do that with my
(03:18):
face when I talk little? Owen, I used to hold him as a
baby and be like, wow. So little anymore.
I I wanna get Sharon in for an episode actually.
Feel it would be really. Oh, that would be really
wouldn't. That be amazing.
I used to. When we go out for dinners, I'd
be like, so tell me how? How does this all work?
Yeah, the fact that he's, he's apastor.
Yeah, and she's. She's working with him in the
(03:39):
church now. Wow.
Yeah. Oh, she'll bring people in.
She's just that person. She'll bring people in everyone
wants to be friends with. Her she'll.
Bring she's I'll go just to be she'll be a good.
Recruiter. All right, so yeah, but the
thing that you guys do guys. Oh, puppy, So and you guys work
(04:00):
in the NDIS space? We sure do.
In fact, the job that you do, I didn't even know was a job.
Excellent. So you're probably like 99.9% of
the population and like that a bit of the government.
Yeah, feels like that. I wanna start with why is the
NDIS so controversial? My take on it is they used to be
quite black and white. It was person centred basically
(04:22):
when it started, a lot of the states just kind of, you know,
stopped helping with lots of little tiny things.
So they weren't sending people into the schools as much.
They were using the NDIS, support workers, blah, blah,
blah. And I think the government's
kind of started going, oh hang on, we can't afford to keep
(04:43):
putting more and more pressure on the NDIS.
But at the same time, the peoplewho are running the NDIS are
very disconnected from the people who need the NDIS.
Are you saying controversial things right now?
Are we starting with that? Possibly and I'm not, I just I
have a lot of these thoughts, but I don't share them very
often. Yeah, so.
(05:03):
Because I mean, that reel that Ijust spoke about with the 40,000
views, like I'm deleting comments that people are making
about her, The lady that's in this reel, they OK, for
starters, people aren't quite getting it.
So she works with clients, with participants and helps them to
advocate, helps them to get the funding that they.
(05:23):
Coordinator cause is she LA? CI yeah, I don't want to say
definitely not Lac. That was they were quite clear
about that OK not using Lac get your own kind of thing going on
or whatever. I I'm I don't want to guess
because I'll I'll get it wrong. The clip that's gone crazy viral
is Fee asks her if you could change one thing about the NDIS,
(05:46):
what would it be? And she says.
I'm a person with disability. You're asking me what's the best
way to support me so I can live the best life I can.
Talk to me, talk to me, I'm the participant.
If you could change just one thing about the NDIS, what would
it be? That every single person living
with a disability is heard. And that's the problem now is
(06:11):
that decisions are being made ontheir behalf.
People who are sitting in a callcentre are reading pieces of
paper and making decisions on somebody else's life.
Where are these people able to speak and able to say, you know
what, no, I want to have choice and control.
(06:32):
I don't want you to make a decision for me.
I don't want to have to ration out my personal care pads
because you don't feel it's necessary.
It needs to come back to that core factor of I'm a person with
disability. You're asking me what's the best
way to support me so I can live the best life I can?
(06:52):
Talk to me. Talk to me.
I'm the participant. Don't talk to everybody else
around me. I'm a human.
I need to be heard. And so does every other
participant in the NDS. Anyone living with a disability.
Yes. What's not captured in that clip
is she's not actually talking about herself.
She's talking about on behalf ofparticipants.
Yeah, well, there is. A saying in the NDIS.
(07:13):
Nothing about me without me. The whole sector is supposed to
be person centered, meaning it'sindividualized.
The person with a disability is in the middle of a circle.
And all of us providers, the NDIS, the government, everyone
else works around that person and their family to try and
support them to have the best life they can have.
(07:33):
Yeah, and that's getting lost that.
And I think that's what she's saying in it.
Yeah, talk to the participant. The participant or but she's.
Probably got that me. Yes.
From the Nothing about me without me, right?
It's been around forever. Interesting.
And it's it's dropped off a lot lately because the NDILIS
doesn't really want to highlightthat because they're not
(07:55):
necessarily listening to the participants and the
individuals. So when I say I've been deleting
comments, it's because the people are saying horrible,
nasty things. If it's people arguing about
NDIS and someone's on one side, someone's going, I'm sick of
paying for this as a as a taxpayer.
And the other person's talking about how much of your tax
(08:16):
actually goes towards this thing.
And then the other person's going, well, it's $100 billion a
year is being done on this and, and they're fighting it.
I'll let that stuff go. Yeah, that's 'cause that's
everyone's right is to have thatconversation.
It's when it's targeted stuff that gets said.
That's why when you said that thing just then other, Oh no,
it's just gonna turn into one ofthose things.
I hate not. We're usually in the background
(08:37):
behind computer screens. We're like.
Not so. You are plan managers and when I
was asking you about that and going what do you do?
I think this is where I landed your bookkeepers.
Pretty much. Right our.
Specialty is. So we're bookkeepers, but our
specialty is the NDIS. We know the price codes, we know
(08:59):
the price guides, the catalogues, you know, what can
you like? For someone outside of the NDS
right, NDIS knows nothing about any of this.
How concisely can you sum up what you do how it works?
If someone gets an NDIS plan, they think they've got their
it's taken them a year. They're like, Oh my gosh, I'm
(09:20):
here. Wait, see, see, you think you're
explaining it? What's an NDIS plan?
Oh, OK. So to get an NDIS plan, that
means some sort of funding to support some sort of disability
that you live with that's permanent and there are supports
that are paid for and agreed to buy the NDIS, the National
Disability Insurance Scheme. Didn't even know what it stood
(09:43):
for. Oh.
Sorry, we've been in. So this is what you're dealing
with. Well, this.
Is, you know, a big thing that I've always done, and this was
in radio and all through my career, is I'm happy to play the
dumb one or the uneducated one because I'm representing the
chunk of my audience that also don't know.
(10:03):
It's just that you don't know what you don't know.
You know that's so true. And if I went into this, like
before talking to you guys, if Iwent and did a ton of research
all about the NDIS and what planmanagers do and all of that,
then I'd be jumping in straight like you and just getting into
the nitty gritty kind of withoutactually, yeah, you know, for
everyone else who's going wait, but what is the end?
Like what? How does the NDIS work?
(10:25):
And it's also good to talk to someone who doesn't know because
then it makes us aware of where we've forgotten that people
don't remember. And.
Can remind you as well of like when someone first comes to you.
Yeah, this may be for where they're.
I mean they would research it more than me.
No. So basically they think they,
they get reports from doctors and specialists, so they send
(10:48):
them into the NDIS. They go through a whole waiting
period. Then they have a quick planning
meeting probably and they who with the NDIS, they're called
NDIS planners or delegates. Yeah, they look over the reports
and then they'll make the plan from that.
And the plan means what they canspend their money on.
So it might be 12 sessions of physiotherapy for the year.
(11:11):
A support worker helping them out during the day.
Taking them to the supermarket or something so that they can
live their daily life supported and then the best way they can.
Does this come after a diagnosisor something?
Do they have to pay for all of that to begin with?
Oh yeah. And then they send all those
reports into the NDIS and apply for funding, right, Sort of like
I guess you would do with Centrelink if you were going for
(11:33):
some sort of payment there. But it, yeah, it's a lot more,
yeah, challenging and difficult and it's quite for confronting
for a lot of participants. Yeah, Fi talks about that on one
of her episodes where it's actually in that one with Bell
when they're talking about when you're applying for funding or
when you're going in and advocating is the word I'd never
even really heard of. That's a big thing, apparently,
(11:53):
Yeah. And it's going in and Bell says
to show your whoever it is, yourloved one, your kid or whoever
it is on their worst day, that'swhat you're looking for funding
for because those days happen and probably all the time.
But as a parent, you want to just.
You don't want to look at them in that light.
I don't know. We're really lucky we don't have
(12:14):
anything to do with that side ofit.
Yeah, right. We do hear the stories, yeah.
Yeah. And they get through all of
that, and then they get given a sheet of paper with some.
This is what you've got to do. Call your plan manager or call a
plan manager. Here's a list of them, or you
can go to the website, look themup and they call and say I don't
even know what you do Sorry what?
Why do I need to call you and with?
(12:35):
But you don't have to call a plan manager, you can go self
managed. You just self managed, agency
managed or plan managed. It will be decided in your
planning meeting which way you go.
On the Central Coast there's nota lot of registered providers.
So to be agency managed you needto be a registered provider.
You need to go with a registeredprovider.
So you know an independent support worker is not going to
(12:58):
pay for registration for the NDIS, too much time, effort,
money. So if you're agency managed it,
it narrows who you can use for asupport worker or any kind of
support because they have to be registered to claim.
If you're self managed or plan managed you can use anyone who's
got an ABN and NDIS clearance. All of that gets decided at that
(13:21):
meeting. It's yeah.
They work out how much like they'll and they'll say whether
it should be groups of one to two or one to one support, if
it's daily life, so things like personal hygiene, showering,
eating, if it's community access, all that sort of stuff,
or what kinds of therapies. Sometimes it's modifications for
people's houses. So from that point where
someone's been at the doctor or with specialists or whatever,
(13:42):
and then that report goes off tothe NDIS and then the NDIS go,
yes, you've been approved for this much funding.
Yep. Are they also at that point
saying and that funding is for these things?
Yep. Oh, OK.
They get like a plan, a breakdown.
A breakdown of what they can useit for.
And some of it's flexible, whichis very confusing because the
people are like, oh, it's flexible.
I can buy anything. And then the NDIS is like, we're
(14:03):
quite grey in that area. But lately they've put out some
new, this is an NDIS support. This isn't an NDIS support.
Oh, OK. And this is one that you can
write to us and ask for a replacement support.
In the comments that I see online on that reel, I think
people think you get handed a bunch of money and there you go
and you can go off and buy yourself a big new flat screen
(14:25):
TV if you want to. Us.
No, yeah, no, no. I mean like.
The people, all right. The participant No.
You don't even actually get the money right.
No, no, no. It's so the invoices come in
from. So say someone went to see a
physiotherapist, that physio will send us an invoice written
to the participant, but just sending it to our e-mail address
(14:47):
and then Darren will put it through the system.
I check it over. Or we kind of had two eyes on
them. Yeah.
And then then we put that into the NDIS. 2 days ish later, the
NDIS pays us and we pay it straight on.
So we're not just sitting with heaps of money in our bank.
We can only claim what people with compliant invoices.
(15:07):
Provide us, yeah. Yeah, and they have to be
compliant. They can't be just kind of, you
know, they go up the roads, vendout your NDIS number and sends
in you owe me. Right. $10 or whatever it's.
It has to align with the NDIS plans.
Yeah. Can that participant even go and
get the physio if it's not part of their plan, like it's how
does that work? Can they even book the
(15:29):
appointment with the physio or anything?
So they used to be able to, but it's all changed recently with
these three. What's an NDIS support?
It depends on whether it's flexible in your budget or
whether it's what they call stated.
If it's stated, that means they've given you 12 hours for
the physio, 30 hours of psychology and that's all you
can use it for. But they used to be very
(15:49):
flexible. So it's kind of like watch this
space. I'm not sure at the moment.
This is so confusing. Yeah, it's really confusing.
And that's why we love it. We.
I study it like if we wouldn't. Yeah, no, I'm always learning
and reading and there's so many grey areas and there's lots of
player managers talking to each other going.
Did you read this? Is that really saying that we
(16:11):
can do this, or is it saying we shouldn't do?
That when you say we can do this, like what sort of things?
Different, like is Podiatry claimable?
Is again like what you just asked me.
We've got a flexible CB daily hang on, improve daily living
budget, which is like therapy. Yeah.
I have to be careful not to speak in acronyms because that's
what we all do. Oh yeah.
And no one knows them. We just make up our own as we
(16:33):
start. Right.
OK. I don't even know half of them,
so don't. Worry and I always tell
participants that they just learn by osmosis because that's
what most people do in the sector.
It's just listening and kind of picking up from 1 conversation
to the next that if someone saysa 'cause, they're talking about
a coordinator of support. If someone says APM, it's
(16:53):
probably a plan manager. If someone says an Lac, it's a
local area coordinator. That's so hard.
I think that probably everyone in this situation who's got a
family member or if it's themselves that's doing or
whatever is already dealing witha lot.
And then you've got a system that kind of feels like it's
not. You say about the grey areas.
(17:14):
It's not just this is what you can do, this is what you can't
do, and then you just follow those things and it is what it
is. We're hoping that with the new
what's an NDIS support rhetoric that's going around and and the
different pages on the website that will it'll become clearer.
It doesn't seem to be wow. The communication between the
(17:34):
NDIS and the participants is notgreat at the moment.
Do you know what's weird? I don't see a lot of like, I was
gonna say I don't see a lot of like love for the NDIS, but then
I do see bumper stickers. I love the NDIS.
Yeah, I love NDIS. It's so.
Bad. We can use that because we're
registered. What do you mean?
(17:55):
Like that you get that if you'reregistered provider.
Oh, is that what that is? That's not participants.
No getting these stickers and. No.
See stuff like that, Like I lookat those and I go, that's great
that obviously someone's gettingthe support they need and they
love the NDIS. No, it's a, it's someone who's
(18:16):
got their accreditation and it'sa business.
So it's interesting. I wanted to get.
One would love it if it was the participants because it's an
amazing scheme that's got so much potential.
Yeah, and I want to get to that,but I have to tell you something
funny first. My daughter loves NCIS and I
want to get one made-up. Those stickers.
I love NCIS. Put it on the back in the exact
(18:38):
same fonts and everything. Registered provider, registered
provider, that's me. I'm the registered provider
because I pay for the subscription for her to watch
it. So the stuff I see written
online, it seems like it's all angry, it's problems with the
NDIS, it's all this stuff. And then I also think that from
(19:00):
the other side, I don't know, isit naive to think that it's
amazing that the money is there and the support is actually
there for people? I'm surely there's countries in
the world where that just doesn't even exist and you just
have to fend for yourself and and raise funds you.
Just gotta think, where would webe without it?
The participants would be left by themselves to fend for
(19:21):
themselves. So.
Yeah. Or in institutions like it used
to be. I mean, we're not participants,
so we can't really answer that because it's like that.
Nothing about me without me, butfrom what I see, something, it
changes lives. Like there are some people who
are losing money and we don't understand it.
What do you mean? There's one or two new plans
(19:41):
recently that we've had come through where someone's had a
success and they've said, look, I'm doing really well with the
the supports I've got at the moment.
Let's just, can you roll it over?
Can I have the same plan for next year?
And the NDIS has come in and said, no, you're doing really
well. So we're going to take that back
and we're going to half your support and you're going to just
(20:02):
deal with having half of it because you're doing really.
So the system is set up for people to tell them about their
their struggles, not about theirsuccesses.
So this is exactly what I was saying before about Bell's
advice to people, is when you goin for those meetings, you've
got to talk about the worst day.Yeah.
That you're so hard. Yeah.
(20:23):
Because you don't want to think of your family member or whoever
it is in that light or have to sit there and and talk about how
bad it is. But if you don't, they don't
know. Yeah.
And if you go for your yearly review and you say, wow, I'm
killing it, you know what? I couldn't use this arm properly
before, but now look at me. Yeah, I can hold a piece of
(20:45):
toast or whatever it is. Yeah.
And then they go, oh, OK, good. Well, you don't need as much
support. Then that is what it's set up
for though, right? I think I've I've learnt that
through this is it? It's to give you the support you
need now to help you get to a point where you don't need it.
Yep. At some point, but if they
continued the amount of support for this person that I've
made-up about the, yeah, maybe by the end of that final year,
(21:06):
they could actually use their arm to drive, right.
You know, rather than just do that, maybe they have got full
motion of it. Yeah, or half motion.
They're not, you know, like it. Oh, it's tough.
The whole thing's tough because at what point do they then go,
well, that's enough. You can, you know, you can eat
toast now or now you can drive acar.
That's great. The participant and their family
(21:28):
no doubt would be going. Yeah, but no, they want to do
this. Like at what point do they then
you know? I get that.
So. Hard yes.
See, I don't know. No, it's so bad.
I'm not on that. No, that's right.
Is it? Yeah.
Have you been to Guandalan Bowling Club?
They're right there on the shores of Lake Macquarie.
They do delicious meals upstairsin the Foreshore Bistro and
(21:50):
Cafe, which is run by the Dish Catering Group.
So, you know, it's good stuff and you can dine out on the
balcony looking out over the lake.
It is beautiful. They got the cute little
foreshore kiosk for a coffee andsnacks right by the jetty.
The entertainment's top notch. They got Friday night seafood
raffles and Sunday sessions withlive music in the beer garden.
(22:11):
You wanna find out what's happening at the club?
Check out their Facebook page orvisit gwandalinbowlingclub.com
dot AU. Think Up a Mighty Chan have been
big supporters of the pod and podcast right from the start,
and you get all the stuff from them that you'd expect to.
You get plants, you get all the Weber stuff, you get all the
steel gear, the amazing principle kitchens, but it's the
(22:31):
stuff that you don't expect. Like this lady comes in and
she's hired a goat, but to clearsome lands and she wanted to.
Work out a way how to tether. This goat I come up with an idea
of a bit of stainless steel wirebetween 2 trees, like a zip line
between the two trees. To the goat she took my advice.
I don't know how it turned out, but she was very happy with the
service that she got. That's what you get.
(22:53):
And the mighty helpful King Kumble minor Jen podcast with
Rabbit. And so where do you guys come
into it? So you've got a business, pure
plan management. Yep.
You know, what's really cool is as part of what I'm doing with
Pod Van Media now, now I've got this.
Oh, I've got a whole team aroundme, and you've been working with
(23:15):
Michael at Archangel Design. Oh yeah, we're so excited.
To get a new logo. Absolutely.
He designed the pod van logo. Which we love.
I wish we could just steal that and make it work for us, but
weren't. It'd be weird.
But I do like management with a little caravan.
Well, that was the that was the choice at one stage.
(23:36):
Do we do a pack caravan and use that as our office or have the
office in the house? Oh, funny.
That's yeah, I've kind of got both.
Myself as well. So it's the two of you in the
company you're working side by side.
We are. We used to be.
Side by side now we're like our computers face each other, so I
can't actually see him. So when he's in one of his moves
(23:58):
and he's talking a lot and he's like distracting, it doesn't
matter because I can't see him. His idea wasn't to set.
The screens up like that mine soanybody could.
Look outside. Oh, yeah.
So she's got a view to look out the window.
I don't. Yeah.
Yeah, OK. Then you do have a view.
I do have a wonderful view actually our software.
Providers were saying that I must have the best view ever the
(24:20):
other day 'cause I was looking over at Darren.
They they should have went to. They've got a premise going on.
So the two of you got a bookkeeping background?
I do I've. Been I grew up doing my mum's
book. She was a psychiatrist to cook
in Mum's books. Yeah, no.
I used to like do a lot of her books after her secretaries
(24:40):
would leave for the day. From the time I was about 14, so
would I. Be right in saying like one of
your favorite things in the world is a spreadsheet.
I love Excel. I'm an Excel nerd.
Oh yeah, Yeah. And I'm not ashamed to say it.
No, you shouldn't be, really. Yeah.
Especially when I was working with all the cool kids in
television. Oh yeah, I was like, I like
(25:00):
Excel. Going to meetings, I'm just
sitting around in a group. My my name's MPI love a
spreadsheet. I.
Do and our current software providers are like, why do you
need a spreadsheet? And like I just do we need to be
able to have reports and they'relike, but you've got all the
information there. I'm like, I need my spreadsheet.
(25:21):
Yeah, I get. It I've only just recently
started working with spreadsheets that's so good with
maybe to do all my own finances and and stuff and as part of
that wasn't the first time I ever heard of a bookkeeper, but
I did actually ask someone the question like what do they do?
What do the bookkeeper do? Store books I.
Think they tell. You.
Yeah, put them in a bookcase. Huh.
(25:42):
And you paid for that. Absolutely.
Other people's books. Oh yeah, you're doing other
people's books and storage fees.Yeah, right.
So you just got a. Massive warehouse full of all
people's books. Yeah.
Interesting. Has the Kindle no ruined your
business? Like people can just look after
their own books now our numbers have gone.
Down. Yeah, be careful what you.
(26:02):
Say about Kindle, I'm obsessed with Kindles.
I reckon I could pick. The things you'd be obsessed
with. I don't know, like when you say
you love a Kindle and devouring books.
It doesn't surprise me. You.
You don't mind a scream, do you?No, I.
Really. Don't actually, Yeah, so.
What do you actually do as planning managers?
(26:23):
Actually I had a conversation with you the other day and I
feel like I came out of that able to explain to other people.
Awesome, can you do? That Yeah, well, there's.
One bit that really stood out tome and that's how much you get
paid for a participant or how much you make for a participant.
Like, that really stood out to me because from the teeny bit of
(26:46):
research that I've done, plan managers can get a bad name,
yes. Yeah, the government's
definitely been pushing that, haven't they?
Don't absolutely 100%. Why?
And the the way the media perceives us and the way the
government have come out and spoken about plan managers, how
we wrote the system, we're millionaires, those sorts of
things. And it's not possible.
(27:07):
How does a plan manager to be like?
So this is the. Best right that I that really
stood out to me. When you say it's not possible,
how much do you actually make per month per participant 104?
Dollars and $0.45 per participant per month.
That doesn't matter that regardless of how many phone
calls we take, how many invoiceswe process, that's it.
(27:29):
So that was the thing. When I heard that, I was like,
oh, so then I can't see how you can route it, but obviously you
can because it's it's been a thing, right?
I think how it's. Routed is where businesses
combine all the services like support work, support,
coordination, plan management, acharge at all.
They're providing the worker, they're providing the service
(27:50):
and they're approving their own payments or so they're.
Using their own people to provide.
The support work, so a person goes out and helps provide the
participant work. So they're involved in supplying
that. So they charge for support work.
They also charge for support coordination, which is arranging
that work. And then also as a plan manager,
(28:12):
that's where we come in. We come in and have a look at
invoices, make sure they're legit and and sign them off and
submit them, whereas they're they're submitting and approving
their own invoices. Oh, so they could be.
Overcharged. It's a conflict of interest.
It's a. Conflict of.
Interest, right and. They're funnelling.
People into their own supports. So basically.
(28:33):
As a plan manager, you should predominantly just be a plan
manager. As a support coordinator, you
should just provide support coordination.
These companies hold all those under their one umbrella, so
they could go and but what's wrong with that?
When? Because they could be sending
you to a support coordinator outside of their business,
that'd be fine. Yeah, but.
The money's going to be the same, isn't it?
(28:53):
Yeah, but there's nobody. To police that.
So basically if you have a a dodgy provider that covers
everything they might say we're charging for four hours of of
support work where they've only supplied 1.
Oh, and. There's no one to oversee it, so
a coordinator and a plan managercontrol the budgets in a way,
and the supports and they keep each other honest.
(29:15):
Oh, wait. So a support worker could go, if
they're in cahoots with the planmanager, could go pop me down
for four hours yesterday when they were only there for two
hours and the person could put it through the books.
Yeah, but all the plan managers.I know wouldn't do that in a
million years, but that's what we think the NDIS are saying to
us, right? There's there's a.
All plan managers. I was thinking why would the?
(29:37):
Plan manager even do that but ifthey.
Well, because then they. Can get the kickback from the
support worker, yeah, but they're like.
I have to be in minority becauseas a bookkeeper, an NDIS
bookkeeper, plan manager. Now education we need to have.
I can't remember what it is, 1200 and something hours worth
of experience. We need to be of good moral
character and we have to be members of our own bookkeeping
(29:59):
associations or accounting associations and we have to be
registered. So we have to have all the
policies, procedures, clearances, everything.
We're the most plan managers. As plan managers, we're the most
highly regulated sector of the NDIS and always have been
because we're dealing with the funding.
So we have to be a certain levelof trustworthy, yeah, to be able
(30:21):
to do our jobs. So for the NDIS to say this is
really, really confronting to most of us.
But are they saying about the others?
As well, are they saying it about support workers they're
saying it about? That's really weird.
And you know what else is reallyconfusing for me though?
Is the name. Because you're not plan
managers. No, no, the other.
Thing we from what I can. No.
The support coordinator would bethe plan manager as in like they
(30:42):
managed the budgets and and the support.
So you got support coordinators.And then you got to support
workers. Yeah, the support coordinator's,
the one that organises. Therapies plans that.
Yeah, kind of like plan management where it seems like
your. Bookkeepers.
Invoicing. People voice financial side,
yeah, so. But even then, we don't.
(31:03):
Do the budgeting, the support coordinator is supposed to say,
well, OK, you can have this manyhours of this and this, many of
this, and they're the ones we'resupposed to keep on top of all
the different supports and the service agreements and the, you
know, all those sorts of confusing things this.
Sounds like a nightmare it kind.Of is when you're in it, it's
(31:24):
actually it, it just makes sense.
I don't know how why but I've been doing it for, I don't know,
10 years ish and it just makes sense.
And Darren used to be on the other side as a support worker.
Oh, OK. And he did a lot of.
Access it to buildings and parksand whatever for disabled
people. Yeah.
So we're kind of coming togetherfrom two different angles.
(31:48):
And he can fill in the blank spreadsheets.
What are you doing? I'm doing all the.
Invoicing. I go over them with a fine tooth
comb, making sure all the numbers are legit and all adds
up and there's nothing suspicious.
Do you have ones where? You go this is suspicious,
Absolutely. Really.
Yep, lots of them. Who's suspicious?
The participant or the provider?The provider that's supplying.
The invoice, so the provider's. Telling you they've done a
(32:10):
certain amount of work or something?
Is that what it is? Yep, and.
It's above what is usual becauseobviously with our participants,
we know our participants and what, what invoices are coming
in. Anything that doesn't sit right,
you need we need to go back to the provider and and question
what's going on with that invoice.
Darren's done some. Personal investigation type
training in his past MMM, so he's perfect for this role.
(32:32):
Let's just give attention to the.
Newspaper with the eye eye holescut out.
Back in the day I was but for this.
Level of kind of just oversight.He's he's just so focused on it
and his attention to detail is unreal.
But you're doing. That so that the participants
not getting ripped off and and having their funding going to
(32:54):
things that they haven't actually received exactly.
And so they got. Funding at the end of their
plan. So the funding's there to last
for a specific period of time. If providers are overcharging,
it could be a 15 minute charge per invoice, but that adds up
over 12 months. Yeah.
So you've got to be aware of that and they shouldn't be
charging that. So need to get in contact with
the provider and say this needs to be removed.
It's not essential to what needsto be charged.
(33:16):
So a lot of the. Issues are actually just
mistakes by providers. A lot of them are really, really
good at what they do. That was what I was wondering.
But. They're not bookkeepers.
Yeah. They're not people who are used
to doing accounting accounts, any of that sort of stuff.
They're not familiar with the spreadsheets where all of the
different codes are. They get overwhelmed, so they
(33:36):
send us in the best that they can do.
Yeah, I'm overwhelmed. Just listening to this, yeah.
And you can understand. It so we, we kind of, we try to
be really helpful and we'll contact them and say, hey, can
you just add one of these and five of those and put this in
this way and you actually have to split it out so we can tell
how many hours you've been there, what you charge per hour
(33:57):
as well as the total. Don't forget the code.
This is what it's called 'cause if there's any.
Incorrections on the submitted invoice.
It gets rejected by the NDIS, soyou need to make sure it needs
to be what they're asking for. And we've had some great.
Providers lately, especially on the Central Coast, love them.
Yeah, they realise that they've done something with their their
claims. And all of a sudden this week
(34:18):
we're getting people saying can we refund you?
We realise that we've actually claimed this week, but they'd
cancelled beforehand and blah blah blah.
Amazing. We love our providers, they're
so good. Do you wanna not our?
Providers. Like their Central Coast
providers? Yeah.
Do you wanna? Name any that have done good
stuff or no, This is kind of thething I guess with the situation
(34:40):
that you're in and and your rolein this is that you shouldn't be
recommending. No, we shouldn't and.
That's why I was like looked at Darren then like, yeah, I'd love
to. I don't think it's approved.
We're just here. To make sure the invoice that's
being received has got all the information that's required,
goes in and gets paid back, there is a real.
Problem with your job title, your business, what what your
(35:04):
class has because we're not planmanagers.
You are not plan. Managers and that's.
Where I think the confusion comes towards and.
Invoice assessors and just bookkeepers.
Bookkeeping. It's.
The the invoices, you, you invoice, you pay the invoices,
you take care of that so that the participants don't need to
be worrying about handling all of that.
(35:25):
Yeah, and we pick up. Fraudulent things quite a bit
where providers are not legit and they've been reported to the
NDIS and things like that where they'll send you an invoice for
a certain amount, which is fair bit of money and then a week
later they'll send an invoice again but with different invoice
number. Wow.
But our software picks that stuff up right any.
(35:47):
Duplicates. Or anything like that that they
think might be being charged twice.
We get warnings on our system and so some of.
Them are doing it on purpose, some of them.
Yeah, it can't. Be many.
I mean, you look at just society, just you go and put 100
people in a thing, you look at the good House of people in the
stadium, there's gonna be some bad apples in there.
Yeah, that will absolutely wrought a system and people
(36:10):
don't. See fraud as really being that
bad. You know, it's that kind of, I
just added a couple of extra hours, but it's coming.
Out of the funding for that participant, if you.
Yeah. So you're not really ripping.
Off the NDIS when you're doing that, are you, you're, you're
ripping off the participant because it's their allocated
funding? Absolutely.
But that's what people. Don't see they're like, but it's
government money. It's not theirs, theirs and the
(36:31):
amount of conversations I've hadwith people where I'm like, what
do you, what makes you think it's your money any more than it
is the participants? I'm really because I'm really
curious about that, because it is the participants funding to
support their life. It's not these other persons.
They've they're offering supportand they get paid for the work
they do. But why do they feel entitled to
(36:52):
it? Because it's the government's
money. It doesn't make sense to me.
It's not the government. 'S money, yeah, It's money
that's been allocated to that potential person.
Wow. We have lots of those.
Conversations where you just geta bit of a spiral.
Oh, I can imagine. I actually did the sums.
Recently, because the NDIS has taken away our setup fee, which
is really sad, but in 2000 and Ithink it was 2223, which was the
(37:14):
only time that I had all of the data from.
So the entire budget we're 1.4% off for plan management.
We say you guys just. The two of you no.
The whole thing plan managers across.
Australia, whether it's a big. One like, you know, one of the
insurance owned ones or a tiny one that's got 8 participants.
Yeah, it's 1.4% of the whole budget, right?
(37:36):
Which is not very much if you look at how much it costs to tap
a card, which was the system that was suggested for a while,
right? They're anywhere between 1 and
1.5%. They could just be tapping a
card, but they wouldn't be getting all the other value adds
that we have as people. Yeah.
We help people. Kind of just sometimes they have
no one else to talk to and so they'll ring us and sort of say
(37:57):
I don't know what to do about this.
My support worker said blah blahblah and I'm freaking out.
We provide therapy. Sometimes, yeah.
Really, I wouldn't. Say I'm not a therapist, I don't
know, but you can't. Charge for any of that stuff can
you No yeah. So this is the thing yeah.
So to be a big. Successful business with
thousands and thousands of clients.
You'd have to be a certain sort of plan manager.
(38:17):
I think for a lot of us we want to be independent, community
based, so pure plant management focuses on the areas we know and
we've worked Central Coast, Newcastle, We just want to focus
on these areas mainly because weget to know this was my IT.
Was going to be my first question actually right at the
start. Why it makes more sense to ask
the question? Why now after hearing about all
(38:38):
that? It sounds like a nightmare.
It sounds like frustrating. I like confusing, fraught with
danger. You, you know, you, you see the
stories on the news of about, yeah, plan managers and
fraudulent stuff with NDIS or any of that.
And you know that you're gonna, you're gonna be painted with
that same brush, even though through what you're doing.
(39:00):
Why now you've said it. Like that, I'm out because I.
Didn't realize just how bad thiswas.
Quite horrible. I just know it's not like that.
We. Would love it.
What? Yeah, but what?
Do you love about it other than the spreadsheets?
I mean, there's other jobs that can give you a spreadsheet.
The people we deal with. Are amazing.
Some of the providers that we deal with who are not
(39:20):
bookkeeping people really appreciate our help and that's
so nice to be able to offer thatto another local business.
The people on the NDIS who are part of our scheme, I don't
know, they seem to be get a bit empowered after being in our
client base. I don't know what to call it I
suppose. With your background in it and
then Mon doing support work, yousort of have that contact and
(39:42):
then see what they the sort of struggles that people have with
disabilities. And this is just a little way of
helping them out. Like we enjoy what we do.
We get to work, work together each day.
We support our family. On IT support our family on.
It but we're also helping other people that may need help we've
been business owners before of other businesses and we see that
you do a service you should get paid for it just like providers
(40:02):
so we're in that sort of we're helping both sides we're yeah
facilitating payments but we're also helping out the
participants as well with. Not having distressed him so if
player managers. Weren't there.
It's just the worst title. I just, I, I can't get past
that. Can you lobby government?
To change it, then maybe they might know who we are and what
we do 'cause it sounds like. Yeah, from the outside I would
(40:22):
think a player manager organiseseverything.
Sounds like that's what the support coordinator is.
I reckon my biggest thing I'm going to take out of this which
is not like was intended, no, I just think your your job titles
wrong and that's. What I said about 3 weeks ago, I
said when you look at governmentand the way they sort of
describe a plan manager, it's like we're not at the top of the
(40:45):
heap managing everybody and telling them what to do.
Yeah, we're sort of at the bottom going, Yep, just give us
your invoice, we'll make sure it's right.
So yeah, the provider can get paid.
You are. And you keep getting your
services on a regular basis, butwe get it.
After it's been done. So we don't have any control
beforehand, but you can't changeit.
Like your business name is literally pure plan management.
You could call yourselves pure bookkeeping or whatever, but
(41:06):
people wouldn't know what you do.
And then when they'd ask you, then they'd go.
So, oh, you're plan managers. Yeah, but no.
Wow, how weird That's that's so they've got the title wrong.
They have, but they've just. The the NDIS is showing time and
time again, they just don't really understand it because the
(41:26):
value we add is yeah can. You think of a time when you've
done something that's really helped someone out or, or do you
not even get that because all you're doing is paying invoices?
Well, that's all we're doing. But on our side of things, we
also take phone calls. We we're happy for our
participants to call us at any time.
A lot of participants come up tous now to ask questions because
(41:48):
if they are somewhere else, theyget charged.
Oh really? Question.
Wait, can you do that? As can you charge people?
No, as plan managers, no, we canonly charge.
That one fee for that one month,that's what I thought, yeah.
But other? Parts of the NDS they can charge
for sending an e-mail out or making a phone call or not plan.
Managers, though not other plan managers.
Not other plan managers we've had.
(42:10):
People who are so anxiety riddenthat they can't make phone
calls, can't take phone calls, can't reply to emails, texts,
nothing. And it's been really hard to
breakthrough. But now they'll call once a week
and have a quick chat and approve their invoices verbally
because they can't bring themselves to look at them.
Really. Yeah, it just like there's so
(42:31):
many individuals, so you have to.
Check with each participant and when invoices come in, they have
to approve it. They don't have to, but we.
Prefer them to because we don't know whether you've been to an
appointment for an hour or wherever you've been there too.
So if someone's charging two hours, it really helps if the
person who's been or has taken the person there can look over
it and go, Yep, that's right, I had a 2 hour.
Appointment yeah, so they just. Press approval, reject, right?
(42:54):
And then we sort it out from there.
There's like a local mum who's got three kids on the NDIS and
she's phenomenal. She's trained all of her own
support workers. She finds people that the kids
like, yeah, and then trains themhow to to work with them.
And she used to do all of her own self management.
It was just a lot. She really trust us at first.
(43:14):
No trust. At all.
And she didn't, no. Openly.
Nicely. But really, what did she say?
Everything has to come. Through me I don't trust.
You, yet I don't trust you with.Just going through it, but we
need to make sure it's good about that I'm.
Happy with that. Yeah.
That that that's, that sets the boundaries, that sets
expectations that you know whereyou sit with her.
And that's that's fine. And now, like, she still
(43:37):
approves everything, which we love, but they just come
straight to us now to her. She's just so much lighter.
When you speak to her, Everybodyused to go.
Through her so, provider would give her the invoice, then she'd
forward it onto the planet. Now it's just providers just
come straight to us and get it sorted.
And her life's just so. Much easier.
Or the guy who wants to dance with his wife and that's what
he's working towards because he's he can't use half the side
(43:59):
of his body and his aim is to dothat.
We heard recently that they had a slow dance together.
Oh really? And that's just awesome.
Like he's been working towards that for two or three years now.
Really. Don't tell the NDAS they'll.
Cut your funding exactly that's.Now I can.
Dance. But why aren't these invoices
going through? That's some great.
Things where we lose participants because they don't
(44:20):
need the NDIS anymore. Wow, really?
They're. Like, oh.
Sad to see you go, but like, wow, fantastic.
So I've. Got a friend who does self
manage, does not see the need touse a plan manager.
Yep, loves to be hands on and right across everything.
I bet your friend loves. Spreadsheets.
Yeah, probably. It's definitely.
(44:40):
A a personality type that wants to do self manage and there's
nothing wrong with. Them doing it themselves?
Absolutely not. Yeah, but if you've got a lot
going on, you gotta remember to do it in the NDIS way.
A lot of it's not that. It's not that simple.
Yeah, from what I've heard, I'venot self done so I don't.
Know what it's like when you. Get an invoice, you get home,
you put it up on the cupboard and three weeks later, oh, I
(45:01):
forgot to pay that invoice. It just depends some.
People do self management so well that I'm like, OK, we don't
have, there's no need for us whatsoever, right?
Yeah. And that's great.
That's great for them if they, especially if.
Participants are doing it because that capacity building
in doing their own, like that's empowering.
Yeah, it's so good. Because it's about choice and
control, right? Like we're all individuals and
(45:23):
we should be empowered like a saying.
Within the thing, because I've heard choice and control before
as well. Yeah, that's about empowering.
Them and and giving them, givingthem an identity.
Yeah. Yeah, and our needs are?
Really different. So what the NDAS would do for
you if you were on it would be completely different to what it
would do for me if I was on it. Yeah.
And if Darren was on it, they'd be broke.
(45:43):
They'd be. That was unnecessary, I know,
but we're. Husband alive, so you know.
Yeah, well, clearly we. Could sit here and go through
the NDIS and I think I'd still come out of it not understanding
any of it, but I think it's coolyou found something that you
enjoy doing. Spreadsheets.
Yep. And people, you know, I'm
(46:05):
working with people and people, I think if anything, the main
take away, as I mentioned before, is the name is wrong,
not your business name. Well, a job card.
I mean, you've got to have plan management in the title because
that's what you do. But man, and we're purely plan.
Management so pure plan management oh that makes.
(46:27):
Sense, right? It's like logo.
Colours. Blue boy, pink girl.
You're right. Green grass, our last name.
So we use the three colours. I tell people that and they go,
oh, that makes sense. It's not meant to make sense to
anyone else but else I guess youeven dressed.
In like without. Knowledge either without even
(46:50):
knowing. You mentioned it's like you've
dressed as your logo. Alright guys.
Hey, thanks. Thanks for jumping in.
I hope others have taken things out of this that they now, I
don't know. I'm a as I said at the start,
I'm a curious creature. I love, I'm just a sponge.
I love learning new things and through something like this.
(47:11):
If this can be helpful for someone in that space, then
great.
Podcast with Rabbit. I'm Rabbit.
I record this podcast inside a cute little retro caravan from
1967 that I've tore around all over the place.
Fan podcast with Rabbit. Well, welcome into this episode.
I'm gonna do something really different with this one.
And there's a reason why I wanted to do this.
It's essentially because I'm a ridiculously curious creature.
(00:25):
I think this could be really helpful for some people.
You know, Heather Irvine Randallwas in the last episode and
talking all about how your childhood trauma can lead to
adulthood trauma. I've got Adrian Date from Vital
First Aid coming in very soon todo an episode and that's all
about PTSD and he talks about why first aid is vital and it's
(00:47):
really helpful the stuff he does.
Now, something has just happenedin the last couple of weeks with
one of the other podcasts that Iproduced under Pod Van Media.
It's called Beyond the Tube and Fee Roderick, she was talking to
someone about, she's talking about about NDIS and that whole
space and that's gone bonkers. I made a reel out of that,
(01:07):
popped it up online. It's had something like 40,000
views. Man, people are getting fired up
over stuff on both sides. And what that's lead to for me
is I'm just so curious about it.Like why are people so worked up
over it on both sides? What's the massive controversy
and then kind of bumped into, I would say old family friends.
(01:32):
Let me introduce you to them, Imby and Darren.
Hi, you guys, how are you going?Hi, let's start there with the
crazy back story with us. Our kids and myself and your
wife. Yeah.
You used to do mother's group together and play group and sort
of develop from the time the kids were like maybe six months
old. Yeah, I came in a little bit
(01:53):
late behind all the cookies. That's exactly what Sav said.
I said, I've been talking to a lady who says she was in our
mother's group like 20 years agoand she goes who?
And I said, well, this is the thing you you'll rather know.
I mean it's a stand out name. I said Embi no way she why she
(02:13):
she turned up later was kind of like a ring in yeah into the
group was. That and I was like, I am
staying. These guys are really.
Cool. Good group, yeah.
Yeah, my daughter was a little bit younger, like 6 months.
Right. But I just couldn't find that
cool group. Not cool.
But yeah, interesting. And Oh my gosh, with so much
fun. Yeah, I was talking to someone a
little while ago and they were saying about their horrendous
(02:35):
experience with mother's group, and I was just like, oh really?
I thought everyone just had likethe best mother's group.
Apparently not. Not like this one.
This is. Quite a gem and.
They're all still really connected and I'm still going
still here, guys. Yeah, I, I think you mentioned
Sharon, Sharon and Phil and we go around for dinner at their
place and stuff. We still catch up with them.
I know Sharon's just like that person.
(02:56):
I know everyone wants to be she's.
Amazing everyone I know. Why do we have to say it like
that though? Shit, that's creepy.
Actually. Sharon's so incredible.
I wanna have her over to my house and go.
So what would you do? Yeah, yeah.
I don't. Yeah, I would have been like you
even. Her dog is adorable.
I everything, everything about them.
That's just the whole family. Why do I have to do that with my
(03:18):
face when I talk little? Owen, I used to hold him as a
baby and be like, wow. So little anymore.
I I wanna get Sharon in for an episode actually.
Feel it would be really. Oh, that would be really
wouldn't. That be amazing.
I used to. When we go out for dinners, I'd
be like, so tell me how? How does this all work?
Yeah, the fact that he's, he's apastor.
Yeah, and she's. She's working with him in the
(03:39):
church now. Wow.
Yeah. Oh, she'll bring people in.
She's just that person. She'll bring people in everyone
wants to be friends with. Her she'll.
Bring she's I'll go just to be she'll be a good.
Recruiter. All right, so yeah, but the
thing that you guys do guys. Oh, puppy, So and you guys work
(04:00):
in the NDIS space? We sure do.
In fact, the job that you do, I didn't even know was a job.
Excellent. So you're probably like 99.9% of
the population and like that a bit of the government.
Yeah, feels like that. I wanna start with why is the
NDIS so controversial? My take on it is they used to be
quite black and white. It was person centred basically
(04:22):
when it started, a lot of the states just kind of, you know,
stopped helping with lots of little tiny things.
So they weren't sending people into the schools as much.
They were using the NDIS, support workers, blah, blah,
blah. And I think the government's
kind of started going, oh hang on, we can't afford to keep
(04:43):
putting more and more pressure on the NDIS.
But at the same time, the peoplewho are running the NDIS are
very disconnected from the people who need the NDIS.
Are you saying controversial things right now?
Are we starting with that? Possibly and I'm not, I just I
have a lot of these thoughts, but I don't share them very
often. Yeah, so.
(05:03):
Because I mean, that reel that Ijust spoke about with the 40,000
views, like I'm deleting comments that people are making
about her, The lady that's in this reel, they OK, for
starters, people aren't quite getting it.
So she works with clients, with participants and helps them to
advocate, helps them to get the funding that they.
(05:23):
Coordinator cause is she LA? CI yeah, I don't want to say
definitely not Lac. That was they were quite clear
about that OK not using Lac get your own kind of thing going on
or whatever. I I'm I don't want to guess
because I'll I'll get it wrong. The clip that's gone crazy viral
is Fee asks her if you could change one thing about the NDIS,
(05:46):
what would it be? And she says.
I'm a person with disability. You're asking me what's the best
way to support me so I can live the best life I can.
Talk to me, talk to me, I'm the participant.
If you could change just one thing about the NDIS, what would
it be? That every single person living
with a disability is heard. And that's the problem now is
(06:11):
that decisions are being made ontheir behalf.
People who are sitting in a callcentre are reading pieces of
paper and making decisions on somebody else's life.
Where are these people able to speak and able to say, you know
what, no, I want to have choice and control.
(06:32):
I don't want you to make a decision for me.
I don't want to have to ration out my personal care pads
because you don't feel it's necessary.
It needs to come back to that core factor of I'm a person with
disability. You're asking me what's the best
way to support me so I can live the best life I can?
(06:52):
Talk to me. Talk to me.
I'm the participant. Don't talk to everybody else
around me. I'm a human.
I need to be heard. And so does every other
participant in the NDS. Anyone living with a disability.
Yes. What's not captured in that clip
is she's not actually talking about herself.
She's talking about on behalf ofparticipants.
Yeah, well, there is. A saying in the NDIS.
(07:13):
Nothing about me without me. The whole sector is supposed to
be person centered, meaning it'sindividualized.
The person with a disability is in the middle of a circle.
And all of us providers, the NDIS, the government, everyone
else works around that person and their family to try and
support them to have the best life they can have.
(07:33):
Yeah, and that's getting lost that.
And I think that's what she's saying in it.
Yeah, talk to the participant. The participant or but she's.
Probably got that me. Yes.
From the Nothing about me without me, right?
It's been around forever. Interesting.
And it's it's dropped off a lot lately because the NDILIS
doesn't really want to highlightthat because they're not
(07:55):
necessarily listening to the participants and the
individuals. So when I say I've been deleting
comments, it's because the people are saying horrible,
nasty things. If it's people arguing about
NDIS and someone's on one side, someone's going, I'm sick of
paying for this as a as a taxpayer.
And the other person's talking about how much of your tax
(08:16):
actually goes towards this thing.
And then the other person's going, well, it's $100 billion a
year is being done on this and, and they're fighting it.
I'll let that stuff go. Yeah, that's 'cause that's
everyone's right is to have thatconversation.
It's when it's targeted stuff that gets said.
That's why when you said that thing just then other, Oh no,
it's just gonna turn into one ofthose things.
I hate not. We're usually in the background
(08:37):
behind computer screens. We're like.
Not so. You are plan managers and when I
was asking you about that and going what do you do?
I think this is where I landed your bookkeepers.
Pretty much. Right our.
Specialty is. So we're bookkeepers, but our
specialty is the NDIS. We know the price codes, we know
(08:59):
the price guides, the catalogues, you know, what can
you like? For someone outside of the NDS
right, NDIS knows nothing about any of this.
How concisely can you sum up what you do how it works?
If someone gets an NDIS plan, they think they've got their
it's taken them a year. They're like, Oh my gosh, I'm
(09:20):
here. Wait, see, see, you think you're
explaining it? What's an NDIS plan?
Oh, OK. So to get an NDIS plan, that
means some sort of funding to support some sort of disability
that you live with that's permanent and there are supports
that are paid for and agreed to buy the NDIS, the National
Disability Insurance Scheme. Didn't even know what it stood
(09:43):
for. Oh.
Sorry, we've been in. So this is what you're dealing
with. Well, this.
Is, you know, a big thing that I've always done, and this was
in radio and all through my career, is I'm happy to play the
dumb one or the uneducated one because I'm representing the
chunk of my audience that also don't know.
(10:03):
It's just that you don't know what you don't know.
You know that's so true. And if I went into this, like
before talking to you guys, if Iwent and did a ton of research
all about the NDIS and what planmanagers do and all of that,
then I'd be jumping in straight like you and just getting into
the nitty gritty kind of withoutactually, yeah, you know, for
everyone else who's going wait, but what is the end?
Like what? How does the NDIS work?
(10:25):
And it's also good to talk to someone who doesn't know because
then it makes us aware of where we've forgotten that people
don't remember. And.
Can remind you as well of like when someone first comes to you.
Yeah, this may be for where they're.
I mean they would research it more than me.
No. So basically they think they,
they get reports from doctors and specialists, so they send
(10:48):
them into the NDIS. They go through a whole waiting
period. Then they have a quick planning
meeting probably and they who with the NDIS, they're called
NDIS planners or delegates. Yeah, they look over the reports
and then they'll make the plan from that.
And the plan means what they canspend their money on.
So it might be 12 sessions of physiotherapy for the year.
(11:11):
A support worker helping them out during the day.
Taking them to the supermarket or something so that they can
live their daily life supported and then the best way they can.
Does this come after a diagnosisor something?
Do they have to pay for all of that to begin with?
Oh yeah. And then they send all those
reports into the NDIS and apply for funding, right, Sort of like
I guess you would do with Centrelink if you were going for
(11:33):
some sort of payment there. But it, yeah, it's a lot more,
yeah, challenging and difficult and it's quite for confronting
for a lot of participants. Yeah, Fi talks about that on one
of her episodes where it's actually in that one with Bell
when they're talking about when you're applying for funding or
when you're going in and advocating is the word I'd never
even really heard of. That's a big thing, apparently,
(11:53):
Yeah. And it's going in and Bell says
to show your whoever it is, yourloved one, your kid or whoever
it is on their worst day, that'swhat you're looking for funding
for because those days happen and probably all the time.
But as a parent, you want to just.
You don't want to look at them in that light.
I don't know. We're really lucky we don't have
(12:14):
anything to do with that side ofit.
Yeah, right. We do hear the stories, yeah.
Yeah. And they get through all of
that, and then they get given a sheet of paper with some.
This is what you've got to do. Call your plan manager or call a
plan manager. Here's a list of them, or you
can go to the website, look themup and they call and say I don't
even know what you do Sorry what?
Why do I need to call you and with?
(12:35):
But you don't have to call a plan manager, you can go self
managed. You just self managed, agency
managed or plan managed. It will be decided in your
planning meeting which way you go.
On the Central Coast there's nota lot of registered providers.
So to be agency managed you needto be a registered provider.
You need to go with a registeredprovider.
So you know an independent support worker is not going to
(12:58):
pay for registration for the NDIS, too much time, effort,
money. So if you're agency managed it,
it narrows who you can use for asupport worker or any kind of
support because they have to be registered to claim.
If you're self managed or plan managed you can use anyone who's
got an ABN and NDIS clearance. All of that gets decided at that
(13:21):
meeting. It's yeah.
They work out how much like they'll and they'll say whether
it should be groups of one to two or one to one support, if
it's daily life, so things like personal hygiene, showering,
eating, if it's community access, all that sort of stuff,
or what kinds of therapies. Sometimes it's modifications for
people's houses. So from that point where
someone's been at the doctor or with specialists or whatever,
(13:42):
and then that report goes off tothe NDIS and then the NDIS go,
yes, you've been approved for this much funding.
Yep. Are they also at that point
saying and that funding is for these things?
Yep. Oh, OK.
They get like a plan, a breakdown.
A breakdown of what they can useit for.
And some of it's flexible, whichis very confusing because the
people are like, oh, it's flexible.
I can buy anything. And then the NDIS is like, we're
(14:03):
quite grey in that area. But lately they've put out some
new, this is an NDIS support. This isn't an NDIS support.
Oh, OK. And this is one that you can
write to us and ask for a replacement support.
In the comments that I see online on that reel, I think
people think you get handed a bunch of money and there you go
and you can go off and buy yourself a big new flat screen
(14:25):
TV if you want to. Us.
No, yeah, no, no. I mean like.
The people, all right. The participant No.
You don't even actually get the money right.
No, no, no. It's so the invoices come in
from. So say someone went to see a
physiotherapist, that physio will send us an invoice written
to the participant, but just sending it to our e-mail address
(14:47):
and then Darren will put it through the system.
I check it over. Or we kind of had two eyes on
them. Yeah.
And then then we put that into the NDIS. 2 days ish later, the
NDIS pays us and we pay it straight on.
So we're not just sitting with heaps of money in our bank.
We can only claim what people with compliant invoices.
(15:07):
Provide us, yeah. Yeah, and they have to be
compliant. They can't be just kind of, you
know, they go up the roads, vendout your NDIS number and sends
in you owe me. Right. $10 or whatever it's.
It has to align with the NDIS plans.
Yeah. Can that participant even go and
get the physio if it's not part of their plan, like it's how
does that work? Can they even book the
(15:29):
appointment with the physio or anything?
So they used to be able to, but it's all changed recently with
these three. What's an NDIS support?
It depends on whether it's flexible in your budget or
whether it's what they call stated.
If it's stated, that means they've given you 12 hours for
the physio, 30 hours of psychology and that's all you
can use it for. But they used to be very
(15:49):
flexible. So it's kind of like watch this
space. I'm not sure at the moment.
This is so confusing. Yeah, it's really confusing.
And that's why we love it. We.
I study it like if we wouldn't. Yeah, no, I'm always learning
and reading and there's so many grey areas and there's lots of
player managers talking to each other going.
Did you read this? Is that really saying that we
(16:11):
can do this, or is it saying we shouldn't do?
That when you say we can do this, like what sort of things?
Different, like is Podiatry claimable?
Is again like what you just asked me.
We've got a flexible CB daily hang on, improve daily living
budget, which is like therapy. Yeah.
I have to be careful not to speak in acronyms because that's
what we all do. Oh yeah.
And no one knows them. We just make up our own as we
(16:33):
start. Right.
OK. I don't even know half of them,
so don't. Worry and I always tell
participants that they just learn by osmosis because that's
what most people do in the sector.
It's just listening and kind of picking up from 1 conversation
to the next that if someone saysa 'cause, they're talking about
a coordinator of support. If someone says APM, it's
(16:53):
probably a plan manager. If someone says an Lac, it's a
local area coordinator. That's so hard.
I think that probably everyone in this situation who's got a
family member or if it's themselves that's doing or
whatever is already dealing witha lot.
And then you've got a system that kind of feels like it's
not. You say about the grey areas.
(17:14):
It's not just this is what you can do, this is what you can't
do, and then you just follow those things and it is what it
is. We're hoping that with the new
what's an NDIS support rhetoric that's going around and and the
different pages on the website that will it'll become clearer.
It doesn't seem to be wow. The communication between the
(17:34):
NDIS and the participants is notgreat at the moment.
Do you know what's weird? I don't see a lot of like, I was
gonna say I don't see a lot of like love for the NDIS, but then
I do see bumper stickers. I love the NDIS.
Yeah, I love NDIS. It's so.
Bad. We can use that because we're
registered. What do you mean?
(17:55):
Like that you get that if you'reregistered provider.
Oh, is that what that is? That's not participants.
No getting these stickers and. No.
See stuff like that, Like I lookat those and I go, that's great
that obviously someone's gettingthe support they need and they
love the NDIS. No, it's a, it's someone who's
(18:16):
got their accreditation and it'sa business.
So it's interesting. I wanted to get.
One would love it if it was the participants because it's an
amazing scheme that's got so much potential.
Yeah, and I want to get to that,but I have to tell you something
funny first. My daughter loves NCIS and I
want to get one made-up. Those stickers.
I love NCIS. Put it on the back in the exact
(18:38):
same fonts and everything. Registered provider, registered
provider, that's me. I'm the registered provider
because I pay for the subscription for her to watch
it. So the stuff I see written
online, it seems like it's all angry, it's problems with the
NDIS, it's all this stuff. And then I also think that from
(19:00):
the other side, I don't know, isit naive to think that it's
amazing that the money is there and the support is actually
there for people? I'm surely there's countries in
the world where that just doesn't even exist and you just
have to fend for yourself and and raise funds you.
Just gotta think, where would webe without it?
The participants would be left by themselves to fend for
(19:21):
themselves. So.
Yeah. Or in institutions like it used
to be. I mean, we're not participants,
so we can't really answer that because it's like that.
Nothing about me without me, butfrom what I see, something, it
changes lives. Like there are some people who
are losing money and we don't understand it.
What do you mean? There's one or two new plans
(19:41):
recently that we've had come through where someone's had a
success and they've said, look, I'm doing really well with the
the supports I've got at the moment.
Let's just, can you roll it over?
Can I have the same plan for next year?
And the NDIS has come in and said, no, you're doing really
well. So we're going to take that back
and we're going to half your support and you're going to just
(20:02):
deal with having half of it because you're doing really.
So the system is set up for people to tell them about their
their struggles, not about theirsuccesses.
So this is exactly what I was saying before about Bell's
advice to people, is when you goin for those meetings, you've
got to talk about the worst day.Yeah.
That you're so hard. Yeah.
(20:23):
Because you don't want to think of your family member or whoever
it is in that light or have to sit there and and talk about how
bad it is. But if you don't, they don't
know. Yeah.
And if you go for your yearly review and you say, wow, I'm
killing it, you know what? I couldn't use this arm properly
before, but now look at me. Yeah, I can hold a piece of
(20:45):
toast or whatever it is. Yeah.
And then they go, oh, OK, good. Well, you don't need as much
support. Then that is what it's set up
for though, right? I think I've I've learnt that
through this is it? It's to give you the support you
need now to help you get to a point where you don't need it.
Yep. At some point, but if they
continued the amount of support for this person that I've
made-up about the, yeah, maybe by the end of that final year,
(21:06):
they could actually use their arm to drive, right.
You know, rather than just do that, maybe they have got full
motion of it. Yeah, or half motion.
They're not, you know, like it. Oh, it's tough.
The whole thing's tough because at what point do they then go,
well, that's enough. You can, you know, you can eat
toast now or now you can drive acar.
That's great. The participant and their family
(21:28):
no doubt would be going. Yeah, but no, they want to do
this. Like at what point do they then
you know? I get that.
So. Hard yes.
See, I don't know. No, it's so bad.
I'm not on that. No, that's right.
Is it? Yeah.
Have you been to Guandalan Bowling Club?
They're right there on the shores of Lake Macquarie.
They do delicious meals upstairsin the Foreshore Bistro and
(21:50):
Cafe, which is run by the Dish Catering Group.
So, you know, it's good stuff and you can dine out on the
balcony looking out over the lake.
It is beautiful. They got the cute little
foreshore kiosk for a coffee andsnacks right by the jetty.
The entertainment's top notch. They got Friday night seafood
raffles and Sunday sessions withlive music in the beer garden.
(22:11):
You wanna find out what's happening at the club?
Check out their Facebook page orvisit gwandalinbowlingclub.com
dot AU. Think Up a Mighty Chan have been
big supporters of the pod and podcast right from the start,
and you get all the stuff from them that you'd expect to.
You get plants, you get all the Weber stuff, you get all the
steel gear, the amazing principle kitchens, but it's the
(22:31):
stuff that you don't expect. Like this lady comes in and
she's hired a goat, but to clearsome lands and she wanted to.
Work out a way how to tether. This goat I come up with an idea
of a bit of stainless steel wirebetween 2 trees, like a zip line
between the two trees. To the goat she took my advice.
I don't know how it turned out, but she was very happy with the
service that she got. That's what you get.
(22:53):
And the mighty helpful King Kumble minor Jen podcast with
Rabbit. And so where do you guys come
into it? So you've got a business, pure
plan management. Yep.
You know, what's really cool is as part of what I'm doing with
Pod Van Media now, now I've got this.
Oh, I've got a whole team aroundme, and you've been working with
(23:15):
Michael at Archangel Design. Oh yeah, we're so excited.
To get a new logo. Absolutely.
He designed the pod van logo. Which we love.
I wish we could just steal that and make it work for us, but
weren't. It'd be weird.
But I do like management with a little caravan.
Well, that was the that was the choice at one stage.
(23:36):
Do we do a pack caravan and use that as our office or have the
office in the house? Oh, funny.
That's yeah, I've kind of got both.
Myself as well. So it's the two of you in the
company you're working side by side.
We are. We used to be.
Side by side now we're like our computers face each other, so I
can't actually see him. So when he's in one of his moves
(23:58):
and he's talking a lot and he's like distracting, it doesn't
matter because I can't see him. His idea wasn't to set.
The screens up like that mine soanybody could.
Look outside. Oh, yeah.
So she's got a view to look out the window.
I don't. Yeah.
Yeah, OK. Then you do have a view.
I do have a wonderful view actually our software.
Providers were saying that I must have the best view ever the
(24:20):
other day 'cause I was looking over at Darren.
They they should have went to. They've got a premise going on.
So the two of you got a bookkeeping background?
I do I've. Been I grew up doing my mum's
book. She was a psychiatrist to cook
in Mum's books. Yeah, no.
I used to like do a lot of her books after her secretaries
(24:40):
would leave for the day. From the time I was about 14, so
would I. Be right in saying like one of
your favorite things in the world is a spreadsheet.
I love Excel. I'm an Excel nerd.
Oh yeah, Yeah. And I'm not ashamed to say it.
No, you shouldn't be, really. Yeah.
Especially when I was working with all the cool kids in
television. Oh yeah, I was like, I like
(25:00):
Excel. Going to meetings, I'm just
sitting around in a group. My my name's MPI love a
spreadsheet. I.
Do and our current software providers are like, why do you
need a spreadsheet? And like I just do we need to be
able to have reports and they'relike, but you've got all the
information there. I'm like, I need my spreadsheet.
(25:21):
Yeah, I get. It I've only just recently
started working with spreadsheets that's so good with
maybe to do all my own finances and and stuff and as part of
that wasn't the first time I ever heard of a bookkeeper, but
I did actually ask someone the question like what do they do?
What do the bookkeeper do? Store books I.
Think they tell. You.
Yeah, put them in a bookcase. Huh.
(25:42):
And you paid for that. Absolutely.
Other people's books. Oh yeah, you're doing other
people's books and storage fees.Yeah, right.
So you just got a. Massive warehouse full of all
people's books. Yeah.
Interesting. Has the Kindle no ruined your
business? Like people can just look after
their own books now our numbers have gone.
Down. Yeah, be careful what you.
(26:02):
Say about Kindle, I'm obsessed with Kindles.
I reckon I could pick. The things you'd be obsessed
with. I don't know, like when you say
you love a Kindle and devouring books.
It doesn't surprise me. You.
You don't mind a scream, do you?No, I.
Really. Don't actually, Yeah, so.
What do you actually do as planning managers?
(26:23):
Actually I had a conversation with you the other day and I
feel like I came out of that able to explain to other people.
Awesome, can you do? That Yeah, well, there's.
One bit that really stood out tome and that's how much you get
paid for a participant or how much you make for a participant.
Like, that really stood out to me because from the teeny bit of
(26:46):
research that I've done, plan managers can get a bad name,
yes. Yeah, the government's
definitely been pushing that, haven't they?
Don't absolutely 100%. Why?
And the the way the media perceives us and the way the
government have come out and spoken about plan managers, how
we wrote the system, we're millionaires, those sorts of
things. And it's not possible.
(27:07):
How does a plan manager to be like?
So this is the. Best right that I that really
stood out to me. When you say it's not possible,
how much do you actually make per month per participant 104?
Dollars and $0.45 per participant per month.
That doesn't matter that regardless of how many phone
calls we take, how many invoiceswe process, that's it.
(27:29):
So that was the thing. When I heard that, I was like,
oh, so then I can't see how you can route it, but obviously you
can because it's it's been a thing, right?
I think how it's. Routed is where businesses
combine all the services like support work, support,
coordination, plan management, acharge at all.
They're providing the worker, they're providing the service
(27:50):
and they're approving their own payments or so they're.
Using their own people to provide.
The support work, so a person goes out and helps provide the
participant work. So they're involved in supplying
that. So they charge for support work.
They also charge for support coordination, which is arranging
that work. And then also as a plan manager,
(28:12):
that's where we come in. We come in and have a look at
invoices, make sure they're legit and and sign them off and
submit them, whereas they're they're submitting and approving
their own invoices. Oh, so they could be.
Overcharged. It's a conflict of interest.
It's a. Conflict of.
Interest, right and. They're funnelling.
People into their own supports. So basically.
(28:33):
As a plan manager, you should predominantly just be a plan
manager. As a support coordinator, you
should just provide support coordination.
These companies hold all those under their one umbrella, so
they could go and but what's wrong with that?
When? Because they could be sending
you to a support coordinator outside of their business,
that'd be fine. Yeah, but.
The money's going to be the same, isn't it?
(28:53):
Yeah, but there's nobody. To police that.
So basically if you have a a dodgy provider that covers
everything they might say we're charging for four hours of of
support work where they've only supplied 1.
Oh, and. There's no one to oversee it, so
a coordinator and a plan managercontrol the budgets in a way,
and the supports and they keep each other honest.
(29:15):
Oh, wait. So a support worker could go, if
they're in cahoots with the planmanager, could go pop me down
for four hours yesterday when they were only there for two
hours and the person could put it through the books.
Yeah, but all the plan managers.I know wouldn't do that in a
million years, but that's what we think the NDIS are saying to
us, right? There's there's a.
All plan managers. I was thinking why would the?
(29:37):
Plan manager even do that but ifthey.
Well, because then they. Can get the kickback from the
support worker, yeah, but they're like.
I have to be in minority becauseas a bookkeeper, an NDIS
bookkeeper, plan manager. Now education we need to have.
I can't remember what it is, 1200 and something hours worth
of experience. We need to be of good moral
character and we have to be members of our own bookkeeping
(29:59):
associations or accounting associations and we have to be
registered. So we have to have all the
policies, procedures, clearances, everything.
We're the most plan managers. As plan managers, we're the most
highly regulated sector of the NDIS and always have been
because we're dealing with the funding.
So we have to be a certain levelof trustworthy, yeah, to be able
(30:21):
to do our jobs. So for the NDIS to say this is
really, really confronting to most of us.
But are they saying about the others?
As well, are they saying it about support workers they're
saying it about? That's really weird.
And you know what else is reallyconfusing for me though?
Is the name. Because you're not plan
managers. No, no, the other.
Thing we from what I can. No.
The support coordinator would bethe plan manager as in like they
(30:42):
managed the budgets and and the support.
So you got support coordinators.And then you got to support
workers. Yeah, the support coordinator's,
the one that organises. Therapies plans that.
Yeah, kind of like plan management where it seems like
your. Bookkeepers.
Invoicing. People voice financial side,
yeah, so. But even then, we don't.
(31:03):
Do the budgeting, the support coordinator is supposed to say,
well, OK, you can have this manyhours of this and this, many of
this, and they're the ones we'resupposed to keep on top of all
the different supports and the service agreements and the, you
know, all those sorts of confusing things this.
Sounds like a nightmare it kind.Of is when you're in it, it's
(31:24):
actually it, it just makes sense.
I don't know how why but I've been doing it for, I don't know,
10 years ish and it just makes sense.
And Darren used to be on the other side as a support worker.
Oh, OK. And he did a lot of.
Access it to buildings and parksand whatever for disabled
people. Yeah.
So we're kind of coming togetherfrom two different angles.
(31:48):
And he can fill in the blank spreadsheets.
What are you doing? I'm doing all the.
Invoicing. I go over them with a fine tooth
comb, making sure all the numbers are legit and all adds
up and there's nothing suspicious.
Do you have ones where? You go this is suspicious,
Absolutely. Really.
Yep, lots of them. Who's suspicious?
The participant or the provider?The provider that's supplying.
The invoice, so the provider's. Telling you they've done a
(32:10):
certain amount of work or something?
Is that what it is? Yep, and.
It's above what is usual becauseobviously with our participants,
we know our participants and what, what invoices are coming
in. Anything that doesn't sit right,
you need we need to go back to the provider and and question
what's going on with that invoice.
Darren's done some. Personal investigation type
training in his past MMM, so he's perfect for this role.
(32:32):
Let's just give attention to the.
Newspaper with the eye eye holescut out.
Back in the day I was but for this.
Level of kind of just oversight.He's he's just so focused on it
and his attention to detail is unreal.
But you're doing. That so that the participants
not getting ripped off and and having their funding going to
(32:54):
things that they haven't actually received exactly.
And so they got. Funding at the end of their
plan. So the funding's there to last
for a specific period of time. If providers are overcharging,
it could be a 15 minute charge per invoice, but that adds up
over 12 months. Yeah.
So you've got to be aware of that and they shouldn't be
charging that. So need to get in contact with
the provider and say this needs to be removed.
It's not essential to what needsto be charged.
(33:16):
So a lot of the. Issues are actually just
mistakes by providers. A lot of them are really, really
good at what they do. That was what I was wondering.
But. They're not bookkeepers.
Yeah. They're not people who are used
to doing accounting accounts, any of that sort of stuff.
They're not familiar with the spreadsheets where all of the
different codes are. They get overwhelmed, so they
(33:36):
send us in the best that they can do.
Yeah, I'm overwhelmed. Just listening to this, yeah.
And you can understand. It so we, we kind of, we try to
be really helpful and we'll contact them and say, hey, can
you just add one of these and five of those and put this in
this way and you actually have to split it out so we can tell
how many hours you've been there, what you charge per hour
(33:57):
as well as the total. Don't forget the code.
This is what it's called 'cause if there's any.
Incorrections on the submitted invoice.
It gets rejected by the NDIS, soyou need to make sure it needs
to be what they're asking for. And we've had some great.
Providers lately, especially on the Central Coast, love them.
Yeah, they realise that they've done something with their their
claims. And all of a sudden this week
(34:18):
we're getting people saying can we refund you?
We realise that we've actually claimed this week, but they'd
cancelled beforehand and blah blah blah.
Amazing. We love our providers, they're
so good. Do you wanna not our?
Providers. Like their Central Coast
providers? Yeah.
Do you wanna? Name any that have done good
stuff or no, This is kind of thething I guess with the situation
(34:40):
that you're in and and your rolein this is that you shouldn't be
recommending. No, we shouldn't and.
That's why I was like looked at Darren then like, yeah, I'd love
to. I don't think it's approved.
We're just here. To make sure the invoice that's
being received has got all the information that's required,
goes in and gets paid back, there is a real.
Problem with your job title, your business, what what your
(35:04):
class has because we're not planmanagers.
You are not plan. Managers and that's.
Where I think the confusion comes towards and.
Invoice assessors and just bookkeepers.
Bookkeeping. It's.
The the invoices, you, you invoice, you pay the invoices,
you take care of that so that the participants don't need to
be worrying about handling all of that.
(35:25):
Yeah, and we pick up. Fraudulent things quite a bit
where providers are not legit and they've been reported to the
NDIS and things like that where they'll send you an invoice for
a certain amount, which is fair bit of money and then a week
later they'll send an invoice again but with different invoice
number. Wow.
But our software picks that stuff up right any.
(35:47):
Duplicates. Or anything like that that they
think might be being charged twice.
We get warnings on our system and so some of.
Them are doing it on purpose, some of them.
Yeah, it can't. Be many.
I mean, you look at just society, just you go and put 100
people in a thing, you look at the good House of people in the
stadium, there's gonna be some bad apples in there.
Yeah, that will absolutely wrought a system and people
(36:10):
don't. See fraud as really being that
bad. You know, it's that kind of, I
just added a couple of extra hours, but it's coming.
Out of the funding for that participant, if you.
Yeah. So you're not really ripping.
Off the NDIS when you're doing that, are you, you're, you're
ripping off the participant because it's their allocated
funding? Absolutely.
But that's what people. Don't see they're like, but it's
government money. It's not theirs, theirs and the
(36:31):
amount of conversations I've hadwith people where I'm like, what
do you, what makes you think it's your money any more than it
is the participants? I'm really because I'm really
curious about that, because it is the participants funding to
support their life. It's not these other persons.
They've they're offering supportand they get paid for the work
they do. But why do they feel entitled to
(36:52):
it? Because it's the government's
money. It doesn't make sense to me.
It's not the government. 'S money, yeah, It's money
that's been allocated to that potential person.
Wow. We have lots of those.
Conversations where you just geta bit of a spiral.
Oh, I can imagine. I actually did the sums.
Recently, because the NDIS has taken away our setup fee, which
is really sad, but in 2000 and Ithink it was 2223, which was the
(37:14):
only time that I had all of the data from.
So the entire budget we're 1.4% off for plan management.
We say you guys just. The two of you no.
The whole thing plan managers across.
Australia, whether it's a big. One like, you know, one of the
insurance owned ones or a tiny one that's got 8 participants.
Yeah, it's 1.4% of the whole budget, right?
(37:36):
Which is not very much if you look at how much it costs to tap
a card, which was the system that was suggested for a while,
right? They're anywhere between 1 and
1.5%. They could just be tapping a
card, but they wouldn't be getting all the other value adds
that we have as people. Yeah.
We help people. Kind of just sometimes they have
no one else to talk to and so they'll ring us and sort of say
(37:57):
I don't know what to do about this.
My support worker said blah blahblah and I'm freaking out.
We provide therapy. Sometimes, yeah.
Really, I wouldn't. Say I'm not a therapist, I don't
know, but you can't. Charge for any of that stuff can
you No yeah. So this is the thing yeah.
So to be a big. Successful business with
thousands and thousands of clients.
You'd have to be a certain sort of plan manager.
(38:17):
I think for a lot of us we want to be independent, community
based, so pure plant management focuses on the areas we know and
we've worked Central Coast, Newcastle, We just want to focus
on these areas mainly because weget to know this was my IT.
Was going to be my first question actually right at the
start. Why it makes more sense to ask
the question? Why now after hearing about all
(38:38):
that? It sounds like a nightmare.
It sounds like frustrating. I like confusing, fraught with
danger. You, you know, you, you see the
stories on the news of about, yeah, plan managers and
fraudulent stuff with NDIS or any of that.
And you know that you're gonna, you're gonna be painted with
that same brush, even though through what you're doing.
(39:00):
Why now you've said it. Like that, I'm out because I.
Didn't realize just how bad thiswas.
Quite horrible. I just know it's not like that.
We. Would love it.
What? Yeah, but what?
Do you love about it other than the spreadsheets?
I mean, there's other jobs that can give you a spreadsheet.
The people we deal with. Are amazing.
Some of the providers that we deal with who are not
(39:20):
bookkeeping people really appreciate our help and that's
so nice to be able to offer thatto another local business.
The people on the NDIS who are part of our scheme, I don't
know, they seem to be get a bit empowered after being in our
client base. I don't know what to call it I
suppose. With your background in it and
then Mon doing support work, yousort of have that contact and
(39:42):
then see what they the sort of struggles that people have with
disabilities. And this is just a little way of
helping them out. Like we enjoy what we do.
We get to work, work together each day.
We support our family. On IT support our family on.
It but we're also helping other people that may need help we've
been business owners before of other businesses and we see that
you do a service you should get paid for it just like providers
(40:02):
so we're in that sort of we're helping both sides we're yeah
facilitating payments but we're also helping out the
participants as well with. Not having distressed him so if
player managers. Weren't there.
It's just the worst title. I just, I, I can't get past
that. Can you lobby government?
To change it, then maybe they might know who we are and what
we do 'cause it sounds like. Yeah, from the outside I would
(40:22):
think a player manager organiseseverything.
Sounds like that's what the support coordinator is.
I reckon my biggest thing I'm going to take out of this which
is not like was intended, no, I just think your your job titles
wrong and that's. What I said about 3 weeks ago, I
said when you look at governmentand the way they sort of
describe a plan manager, it's like we're not at the top of the
(40:45):
heap managing everybody and telling them what to do.
Yeah, we're sort of at the bottom going, Yep, just give us
your invoice, we'll make sure it's right.
So yeah, the provider can get paid.
You are. And you keep getting your
services on a regular basis, butwe get it.
After it's been done. So we don't have any control
beforehand, but you can't changeit.
Like your business name is literally pure plan management.
You could call yourselves pure bookkeeping or whatever, but
(41:06):
people wouldn't know what you do.
And then when they'd ask you, then they'd go.
So, oh, you're plan managers. Yeah, but no.
Wow, how weird That's that's so they've got the title wrong.
They have, but they've just. The the NDIS is showing time and
time again, they just don't really understand it because the
(41:26):
value we add is yeah can. You think of a time when you've
done something that's really helped someone out or, or do you
not even get that because all you're doing is paying invoices?
Well, that's all we're doing. But on our side of things, we
also take phone calls. We we're happy for our
participants to call us at any time.
A lot of participants come up tous now to ask questions because
(41:48):
if they are somewhere else, theyget charged.
Oh really? Question.
Wait, can you do that? As can you charge people?
No, as plan managers, no, we canonly charge.
That one fee for that one month,that's what I thought, yeah.
But other? Parts of the NDS they can charge
for sending an e-mail out or making a phone call or not plan.
Managers, though not other plan managers.
Not other plan managers we've had.
(42:10):
People who are so anxiety riddenthat they can't make phone
calls, can't take phone calls, can't reply to emails, texts,
nothing. And it's been really hard to
breakthrough. But now they'll call once a week
and have a quick chat and approve their invoices verbally
because they can't bring themselves to look at them.
Really. Yeah, it just like there's so
(42:31):
many individuals, so you have to.
Check with each participant and when invoices come in, they have
to approve it. They don't have to, but we.
Prefer them to because we don't know whether you've been to an
appointment for an hour or wherever you've been there too.
So if someone's charging two hours, it really helps if the
person who's been or has taken the person there can look over
it and go, Yep, that's right, I had a 2 hour.
Appointment yeah, so they just. Press approval, reject, right?
(42:54):
And then we sort it out from there.
There's like a local mum who's got three kids on the NDIS and
she's phenomenal. She's trained all of her own
support workers. She finds people that the kids
like, yeah, and then trains themhow to to work with them.
And she used to do all of her own self management.
It was just a lot. She really trust us at first.
(43:14):
No trust. At all.
And she didn't, no. Openly.
Nicely. But really, what did she say?
Everything has to come. Through me I don't trust.
You, yet I don't trust you with.Just going through it, but we
need to make sure it's good about that I'm.
Happy with that. Yeah.
That that that's, that sets the boundaries, that sets
expectations that you know whereyou sit with her.
And that's that's fine. And now, like, she still
(43:37):
approves everything, which we love, but they just come
straight to us now to her. She's just so much lighter.
When you speak to her, Everybodyused to go.
Through her so, provider would give her the invoice, then she'd
forward it onto the planet. Now it's just providers just
come straight to us and get it sorted.
And her life's just so. Much easier.
Or the guy who wants to dance with his wife and that's what
he's working towards because he's he can't use half the side
(43:59):
of his body and his aim is to dothat.
We heard recently that they had a slow dance together.
Oh really? And that's just awesome.
Like he's been working towards that for two or three years now.
Really. Don't tell the NDAS they'll.
Cut your funding exactly that's.Now I can.
Dance. But why aren't these invoices
going through? That's some great.
Things where we lose participants because they don't
(44:20):
need the NDIS anymore. Wow, really?
They're. Like, oh.
Sad to see you go, but like, wow, fantastic.
So I've. Got a friend who does self
manage, does not see the need touse a plan manager.
Yep, loves to be hands on and right across everything.
I bet your friend loves. Spreadsheets.
Yeah, probably. It's definitely.
(44:40):
A a personality type that wants to do self manage and there's
nothing wrong with. Them doing it themselves?
Absolutely not. Yeah, but if you've got a lot
going on, you gotta remember to do it in the NDIS way.
A lot of it's not that. It's not that simple.
Yeah, from what I've heard, I'venot self done so I don't.
Know what it's like when you. Get an invoice, you get home,
you put it up on the cupboard and three weeks later, oh, I
(45:01):
forgot to pay that invoice. It just depends some.
People do self management so well that I'm like, OK, we don't
have, there's no need for us whatsoever, right?
Yeah. And that's great.
That's great for them if they, especially if.
Participants are doing it because that capacity building
in doing their own, like that's empowering.
Yeah, it's so good. Because it's about choice and
control, right? Like we're all individuals and
(45:23):
we should be empowered like a saying.
Within the thing, because I've heard choice and control before
as well. Yeah, that's about empowering.
Them and and giving them, givingthem an identity.
Yeah. Yeah, and our needs are?
Really different. So what the NDAS would do for
you if you were on it would be completely different to what it
would do for me if I was on it. Yeah.
And if Darren was on it, they'd be broke.
(45:43):
They'd be. That was unnecessary, I know,
but we're. Husband alive, so you know.
Yeah, well, clearly we. Could sit here and go through
the NDIS and I think I'd still come out of it not understanding
any of it, but I think it's coolyou found something that you
enjoy doing. Spreadsheets.
Yep. And people, you know, I'm
(46:05):
working with people and people, I think if anything, the main
take away, as I mentioned before, is the name is wrong,
not your business name. Well, a job card.
I mean, you've got to have plan management in the title because
that's what you do. But man, and we're purely plan.
Management so pure plan management oh that makes.
(46:27):
Sense, right? It's like logo.
Colours. Blue boy, pink girl.
You're right. Green grass, our last name.
So we use the three colours. I tell people that and they go,
oh, that makes sense. It's not meant to make sense to
anyone else but else I guess youeven dressed.
In like without. Knowledge either without even
(46:50):
knowing. You mentioned it's like you've
dressed as your logo. Alright guys.
Hey, thanks. Thanks for jumping in.
I hope others have taken things out of this that they now, I
don't know. I'm a as I said at the start,
I'm a curious creature. I love, I'm just a sponge.
I love learning new things and through something like this.
(47:11):
If this can be helpful for someone in that space, then
great.
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