February 4, 2022 • 29 mins
Mike Sformo, CEO and Founder of Operation Backbone shares how he advocates for the most advanced medical devices & innovations for our military and civilian medical sectors, bringing mental and physical relief to many veterans.
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Mike Sformo (00:02):
The biggest issue that we can provide and it's
even more important to them thanthe actual surgery if there's a
surgery performed, and that isat least some sort of mental
relief of knowing what could ormost likely is wrong fear sheet.
That seems to be the biggestissue. At least Mike I have some
sort of idea that my back wasbroken, or I had a chip in my
(00:24):
neck, or I have parts fractureor L fours crushed in my spine.
At least I have some sort of nowstarting point to understand
that I'm not crazy, I'm notnuts. And there is real problems
with me.
Charlie Malone (00:41):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast, engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shelton, and theExecutive Director of Policy
beds, Louis Celli, today's guestMike's a former CEO and founder
(01:03):
of Operation backbone.
Louis Celli (01:10):
Mr. Secretary, you started working at the VA just
after they passed the originalChoice Act, what was your
experience? Oh, really was yourexperience as a hospital CEO,
one of the reasons that youthink President Obama sought you
out,
Dr. David Shulkin (01:23):
there's no doubt Lou that when the White
House called me they werelooking for somebody with
private sector experience,because the wait time crisis had
become such an issue. And theyjust didn't want to keep using
the same solutions. They wanteda new way of looking at this.
And I came in with a pretty openmind about what I would find.
(01:45):
And what I found was was thatthe VA was offering unique
services that weren't availablein the private sector. And that
really gave me a very strongconviction that we had to fix
the VA system. And so we focusedon the wait time issues. And we
got, of course, the wait timesdown to essentially same day
(02:08):
services throughout the entirecountry, for primary care and
for behavioral health so thatpeople with urgent medical
problems wouldn't be waiting.
And I think that the VA isalways going to struggle being
the largest health care systemin the country with this issue
of access. And it's one of thereasons why we also published
the wait time so that we couldbe transparent about whether we
(02:30):
were continuing to have the typeof progress that we had seen
before.
Louis Celli (02:37):
Well, you know, I remember working on that bill
and all the back and forth aboutcommunity care and veteran's
preference and, you know, thirdparty payer processes. And it
was really a watershed momentfor VA, you know, we worked
closely with Dr. fishnets andhis team, while VA transformed
from a provider only model to apayer provider model, it was a
(02:58):
huge transformation.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:59):
Yeah, VA had really never acted as a
significant payer of health careservices. And there were
certainly bumps in the road. Anda lot of providers were having
to wait a very long time to getpaid. And that just wasn't fair
to them. So we worked veryclosely with Congress and with
the White House and workedinternally to get a lot of those
(03:21):
systems fixed. But again, due tothe size of the system, it took
a while and even as focused aswe were on it. It's still not a
perfect system, and it probablynever will be a perfect system.
But there certainly has been alot of progress over the years.
Louis Celli (03:38):
That's so true. As a matter of fact, I lost a steak
dinner bet to Carl Blake over atPVA because when the first
choice program was was beingimplemented, they specifically
said that it was going to be atemporary fix just to get these
folks out of the backlog. Andand then then we're going to go
back to, you know, the the corecompetencies of the VA and
(03:59):
Carl's like, nope, once you givethe veterans the choice to go
off, you know, to go off and getcommunity care, they're not
going to want to go back. And loand behold, you know, choice
turned into the permanent ChoiceAct that was signed later on by
President Trump and then evolvedinto the mission act.
Dr. David Shulkin (04:17):
Yeah, the difficult part about this, Lou,
and I know you understand thisis, is that if you're committed
to keeping a strong VA systemfor our veterans, which is
really the only way that I knowhow we can assure that we honor
our commitment to those who arereturning and need our help,
especially for specialexpertise, is to be able to make
(04:42):
sure that the VA focuses onthose things that the private
sector just simply doesn't dowell. prosthetics, orthotics,
behavioral health care,rehabilitation like spinal cord
injury and ocular traumas,environment No exposures, the
expertise that exists in the VAjust simply doesn't exist in the
(05:06):
private sector. But at the sametime, there are things that the
private sector is actually doingbetter than the VA. So what I
think we're striving for is ahybrid system where if you put
the veteran in the middle, theveterans interests first, and
you allow them to take advantageof wherever the best care is,
(05:29):
whether that's in the privatesector, or the VA. That's really
the system that I think that wewant for our country's veterans.
Well, the
Louis Celli (05:37):
program really has evolved. And I remember working
with several providers, youknow, who would come to the
Legion looking for some help andsome relief, you know, who
struggled to get paid from VA,and there were lots of growing
pains, some providers stoppedactually taking VA patients
because of it.
Dr. David Shulkin (05:52):
Yeah, that's true Lo. And there's been a lot
of effort working to evolve thisprogram. Now, of course, it's
become permanent law with themission act. And I think that
not surprising that Carl wonthat dinner from you, because
that's really the way that thesystem should have been designed
(06:14):
right from the beginning.
Louis Celli (06:16):
You know, just as a coincidence, our guest today has
been dealing, you know, withthis problem, really, from the
very beginning of this wholechoice movement. He you know, he
started before the Choice Act,and then lived through choice
one, Choice two, and then themission act. And, you know, he's
helped 1000s of veterans getsome of the very specialized
(06:37):
care that they've desperatelyneeded. Yeah,
Dr. David Shulkin (06:39):
I'm excited to talk to Mike. He had
contacted me several times, youknow, he's one of those guys
that, you know, when somebodycalls you and wants to get your
help, that he wasn't going totake no for an answer. And it's
not that I wanted to say no, butI was pretty busy. And he just
simply said, Well, look, tell mewhere you are, I'm going to
(07:01):
drive to sit down and talk toyou. And he did. We met that
next morning. And it was reallyinfectious, knowing how
dedicated he was how much hewanted to help veterans how much
he wanted to work with the VA.
And that really got me to followwhat he's doing and see the
great work that he's doing. SoI'm excited to hear from him
(07:24):
today.
Louis Celli (07:26):
That's true. And, you know, unfortunately, the
will not unfortunately, it justhappens to be a fact that the
Veterans Health Administrationis the law is the largest, you
know, integrated health caresystem in the United States.
But, you know, Mike's story,unfortunately, really isn't all
that uncommon. Over the years,I've definitely seen an
improvement at VA, but you know,it's hit or miss sometimes.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:47):
That's right.
So why don't we get Mike inhere?
Louis Celli (07:59):
Hey, Mike, welcome to the policy. That's podcast.
Mike Sformo (08:01):
I appreciate it, sir. Thank you for having me.
It's it's quite an honor. It'sit's pretty cool when you guys
are doing so thank you,
Dr. David Shulkin (08:06):
Mike. Thanks.
It's a really important topic wewant to talk to you about today,
because I think you have aunique perspective on the
Department of Veteran Affairs,not only with what's recently
been happening with the VA, inthe pandemic, but I know we've
spoken for years, that you'vebeen a resource for veterans
(08:26):
that have had difficulty innavigating the VA and getting
the type of care that they need.
And that's really, I think, thereason why you started and
really dove in the operationbackbone. But before we get into
that, and what you feel abouthow the VA is doing and caring
(08:47):
for veterans, you yourself are aveteran, of course, you spent
time in the Navy, why don't youtell us about that?
Mike Sformo (08:54):
Well, I appreciate it, Mr. Secretary, but I have to
tell you this the book, and Ididn't even tell this to Lou,
but the book that you wrote thatthe title is, it shouldn't be
this hard. This seems to be themotto of my kids because we
homeschool and they're like whydoes it have to be this hard?
And I said let me tell yousomething. So I the title of
your book is unfortunately withthe political environment today
(09:19):
it transcends into so manydifferent fields so I appreciate
what you've done in in that bookso
Dr. David Shulkin (09:24):
Okay, Mike, Mike, let's just get this clear
right from the beginning you'renot you don't receive commission
on my book sales deal.
Mike Sformo (09:31):
No, no, I you know when I when I talked to you and
I saw that the title of it and Ihear this all the time from
people why is it so hard? Idon't have these answers but
read this book, because he'slike the doctor spot so he got
he had nothing to do with this.
I just wanted to saycongratulations on that. That
was that was pretty cool thing.
In terms of the Navy I was Ijoined the Navy right out of
(09:53):
high school. The youngest for mydad said you're not the smartest
kid on the block. So you gottago do something. So I left low i
Little Town Hall. If you werejust by Buffalo, New York, and I
joined the Navy in the Gulf WarSan Diego, I was on a sub
tender. I was on a fast attack.
I'm sorry, a sub tender as 41.
Dr. David Shulkin (10:11):
Okay, Mike, Mike, Mike, let me just stop you
here. Now, anybody who can spendtime in the submarine? I don't
know how many of our listeners.
I've been in a submarine. Butbut for a short period of time,
how long would you spend? Whenyou're when you're out on a
mission in a sub before youwould get out the land?
Mike Sformo (10:31):
Well, let me make sure I clarify this. I was never
attached to when I was attachedto the submarine base at Point
Loma. So I did all the work onthere. So my longest was kind of
11 days. And I said The hellwith it. This is that's long
enough to be how you guys go sixor seven months at a time.
Forget it. So yes, I just wantto clarify those guys are pretty
good. And now females on whatthey do so yes, yeah.
Dr. David Shulkin (10:53):
Yep. That was, that was they're pretty
incredible people, the peoplethat serve in the sub,
Mike Sformo (10:58):
anybody that serves is, in my opinion is absolutely
outstanding. And so yeah, it wasan honor and a privilege to
serve in the military. The Navyis what got me where it is
today. I'm a huge supporter ofthe military, and but the Navy,
the Navy gave me everything Igot today. So I am extremely
grateful.
Louis Celli (11:14):
I remember getting quickly schooled one day on the
difference between a submarinerand a Submariner. So I try not a
lot
Mike Sformo (11:22):
of steak. Yeah, there's a lot of schooling out
there.
Louis Celli (11:26):
So you know, Mike, this is a great topic, because
it touches on several importantissues, as the Secretary said,
but you started operationbackbone a while back as a
matter of fact, and we talkedabout this earlier. You know,
when I, when I read through yourhistory, I remember that I had
heard this story before
Mike Sformo (11:41):
I reached out to you 2015 2016, I believe when
you are still part of theAmerican Legion. Yeah,
absolutely. And the real quickversion of Operation back when I
was when I hurt my neck, I got abill for $126. And I asked the
VA to pay it. And they said, No.
And I just remember saying,Well, if you can't take care of
my neck, and it's $126, what doyou do if you're really jacked
(12:03):
up like you're a real warfighteron marine and you're in the
middle of nowhere. And the VAdidn't have any answers for me.
And I was really upset I was Iwas a little disappointed. And I
was fortunate enough to havesome resources to go and get
what I had to get done. But thenI realized there's so many
others out there that don't haveit. So that's when I started
looking more into the the realmission of the VA and the
(12:27):
bureaucracy and the red tape.
And it was it was ratherdiscouraging. So that's how,
that's how we started operationback then.
Dr. David Shulkin (12:34):
Talk to us a little bit more about that you
didn't start operation back,well do pay health care bills of
veterans, you started becauseyou didn't think veterans were
getting the care that theyneeded in the VA.
Mike Sformo (12:49):
So the real point of the what really got to me was
the fact that you had to gothrough all this, all these
different steps along the way inorder to go get the treatment in
comparison to a civilian thatcould go online or use his or
her own insurance card. And theycould walk in and go get what
they wanted done. And I said, I,I didn't understand the
(13:12):
disconnect on how we are sentsix or 9000 miles away to go
fight and die. But when we comehome, we have to have a
bureaucrat tell us where to go,and how to function and are in a
for a hospital or in our ownmedical. So I didn't understand
that. So what happened was Isaid, Well, maybe if we could
(13:33):
just take the ones that are themost costly, and the most
complex and the most lengthy.
And the we wanted to partner.
The whole original point was topartner with the VA to simply
say, if you got 25 guys on thefront line, let us provide
another 25. And we could worktogether. And the whole goal was
to simply take the ones that arethe most complex and lengthy out
(13:53):
of the VA system, we can putthem into RS treat he or she and
we give them back to the VA sothey can continue the
outstanding follow up care thatthey're going to need. And it's
been a road. It's been a road.
And we've worked on 1000s ofsoldiers. I'm proud to say,
unfortunate, the VA hasn'twanted to play ball for well,
even to this day. It's beendifficult trying to help some of
(14:15):
the folks
Dr. David Shulkin (14:17):
so that's why you like the name of my book. It
shouldn't be this hard because,
Mike Sformo (14:21):
you know, it's sad, Mr. Secretary, it's sad when you
know what when I when I wastalking to you prior? And I
said, You know what? Here's Imean, how many people get to
serve one president, let alonetwo and what you've gone through
and for you to come out of theWhite House and write a book
like that. It was it wasdiscouraging. It was upsetting
and it actually motivated me tokeep going so you are you are
(14:45):
correct. It's It's hard enoughfor a former Secretary of the VA
to get things accomplished. Whatis an E four e five supposed to
do with no support,
Dr. David Shulkin (14:56):
but that didn't stop you. You've been
you've been despitediscouragement, despite the lack
of, of collaboration, you'vebeen out there just focused on
the mission of helping yourfellow veterans.
Mike Sformo (15:09):
And I want to make this very clear, the VA is
constantly kicked to the curb,and they're constantly getting
belittled. So I want to make thedistinction between bureaucrats
in the VA and the actualworkers. So this is not a VA
problem. This is a White Houseproblem from any administration
that you want to go to. Theseare bureaucrats that handcuff
(15:31):
these outstanding men and womenin the VA, to a point where if
they were to go out and do extrathings, they could actually
legally get in trouble on someof these things that they're
doing medically. So this is notthe men and women on the front
lines. This is the guy sittingon their shiny gas on the Hill
that are saying this is whatneeds to be done needs to be
done. And then they go use theirprivate insurance somewhere
(15:53):
else. And then they handcuffeveryone at the VA. So that's
that's the distinction thatneeds to be made.
Dr. David Shulkin (15:58):
Well, thanks.
Thanks for making thatdistinction. And you know, one
of the things, Mike, that Iwanted to get your thought about
was, did you see any differenceamong this difficulty of
navigating the system, once theChoice Act that now called the
mission Act was passed, andveterans have a legislative have
to be able to get the care inthe community that they need?
Mike Sformo (16:25):
Overall? Do I think it's an improvement? Yes, the
issue still comes to this. Howdo you take somebody that is TBI
or PTSD? Or is really jacked up?
Has opioid issues? How does heor she know how can how can they
actually function through thebureaucratic system? Whether
it's a Choice Act or not, theystill have to have someone to
(16:47):
help them navigate through thatprocess. So the overall
direction I think, is animprovement. Did I think it
solved the problem? No, I didthink it has curved some of it.
But it has not certainly solvedthe problem by any stretch.
Louis Celli (17:01):
So what are some of the bigger problems that you see
then with with helping theseveterans get the, you know, the
critical care that they need, insome cases, to be able to walk
again, or be able to sitcomfortably?
Mike Sformo (17:12):
The biggest issue that I that we have always come
in contact with when I askedwhat did your primary care
physician say, and the issue isthat when you have a severe back
problem or a neck spine issue,you need to go to a specialist,
so he or she can do the propertests, everything has to be done
upfront, the first time through,the problem I see within the VA
(17:36):
is they go to a primary carephysician that is not a
specialist in that specificfield. Therefore, now the
direction is already off,because if they say, we just
don't think it's warranted rightnow for an MRI or a CT or
further evaluation, but we canprovide some of these opioids or
some painkillers to get youthrough the next six months.
This is where I think it allstarts to deviate. So the
(17:59):
biggest issue is the need to beseen by the right specialist
first, so the correct diagnosisand the correct path can be
charted out.
Dr. David Shulkin (18:09):
That certainly makes a lot of sense
from a clinical point of view. Iwonder getting back to this
difficulty of of navigating thesystem. I think we all want to
be able to get our veterans theright type of care. When you
work with the Department ofDefense, are you seeing the same
challenges and getting ourveterans are covered by the
(18:31):
TRICARE system referred to theright people and getting the
right care?
Mike Sformo (18:35):
Let me put the analogy like this, Mr.
Secretary, because I want to bevery diplomatic and respectful.
I would look at it as a TomBrady. This breaks my heart but
the Buffalo Bills. Whatever TomBrady needs
Louis Celli (18:50):
you just you just keep keep right on brother.
Mike Sformo (18:55):
With a Tom Brady asks for something special
forces active duty Tom Brady.
And those individuals get itbecause they are on the field,
the focus is on them. And theyare the ones that can do the
operations. When they are nowoff the field and they're no
longer the Tom Brady, they're,they're the second string or
third string, it becomes less ofa priority. It's not to minimize
it. But there is certainly asuccession and Special Forces
(19:19):
department offense, active dutyall those seem to be much
easier, not even to navigate butto simply align the star so to
speak of what has to happen inthe Execute. Once they leave.
Like I said they become secondand third strength.
Louis Celli (19:36):
So that brings up a really good point of operation
backbone is a nonprofitorganization who exactly is
eligible to get help fromOperation backbone.
Mike Sformo (19:45):
So anybody that comes to us that has any types
of spine issues or scholarissues, physical ailments, we're
happy to take a look at and thisis where we've also run into a
lot of difficulties with PTSD,trauma, TBI, because it's not
our wheelhouse, so we've onlylooked at the actual images. So
(20:08):
for us to sort of qualify sortof speak, we have always had to
take a look at a physical imageso we can see what damage, if
any, and then what process couldbe moving forward. So that's
kind of how we did it.
Dr. David Shulkin (20:22):
Mike, what about the situation where the
Department of Veteran Affairsdoesn't pay the bill, and the
veteran doesn't have any otherinsurance? Does the patient of
their family get a bill fromOperation backbone?
Mike Sformo (20:35):
So that's an outstanding question. And I am
proud to say there's not oneveteran that we've worked on has
ever paid one bill at all. AndI'll tell you why. Because we
have constantly beat on the VAthrough various members of
Congress in the Senate, thattheir constituents need help.
Therefore, we would go tocertain members in the office
(20:56):
and say, here's the issues. Thisis what we can provide, this is
what we're going to need. Andeither the military liaison
individual get involved or theor the actual senator and or
congressman or woman wouldactually get involved in order
to get the referral approved.
Louis Celli (21:12):
So it brings up some great questions. One is how
many how many veterans have youhelped and how does your
nonprofit survive? Do you havesponsors? Do you have individual
donations? Do you have a greatgrandfather?
Mike Sformo (21:27):
No, no, rich grant?
No. So I was fortunate enough.
When I started this out ofbuffalo when Terry got involved,
Terry owns the Buffalo Bills inthe Buffalo Sabres. And then Mr.
Jacobs got involved. Mr. Jacobslives in Buffalo. Mr. Jacobs
owns the Boston Bruins. And hebuilt what they call the Jarrod
(21:48):
the Jacobs Vascular Institute inBuffalo. It's we're doing
minimally invasive upper cranialstroke protocol, protocols. It's
very, very impressiveorganization, you'd be
University of Buffaloneurosurgery. And those guys up
there, Dr. Levy, and sneaky and,and Dr. Hopkins and Dr. Kenny
Snyder, these are the realgenesis of what built operation
(22:09):
backbone. So I was fortunateenough to have some heavy
hitters jump in to help supportand fund what we were doing. And
I will tell you, as it grew, thefrustration mounted for some of
these individuals that said, Whyam I paying three $400 million a
year in tax? What Why? Why areyou the one that's running
around doing all this? Why doyou need my plane? I should be.
(22:33):
So that was a big eye openingexperience for a lot of people.
So it's it was very uniquesituation that we had very
fortunate.
Dr. David Shulkin (22:42):
Okay, Mike, the bottom line here is, is that
you're helping veterans, Iwonder if you know what
percentage of veterans are beinghelped in the program, and what
are the most common types ofinjuries or issues that you're
dealing with when you're dealingwith veterans,
Mike Sformo (22:59):
the biggest issue that we can provide, and it's
even more important to them thanthe actual surgery if there's a
surgery performed, and that isat least some sort of mental
relief of knowing what could ormost likely is wrong with your
sheet. That seems to be thebiggest issue, at least Mike, I
have some sort of idea that myback was broken, or I had a chip
(23:21):
in my neck, or I had parsfracture, or L fours crushed in
my spine, at least I have somesort of now starting point to
understand that I'm not crazy,I'm not nuts. And there is real
problems with me. So providingthat relief to them. And the
family has just been absolutelya wonderful God given thing that
we've that we've experiencedwith the families. On the
(23:43):
physical side, we also provide atrue outcome. And I always say,
look, it's like you have 10fingers, you know, eight of them
are just not going to work nomatter what happens. So we're
going to have to sharpen the twothat you have. And those two
fingers are now going to have tooperate for both hands. So
you're going to have to learn toadjust physically,
professionally, spiritually,financially, with what you have.
(24:05):
So we're able to provide notonly a mental better quality of
life, but we're at least providethem with some sort of options
or relief, or even the bad newsto them is good news by saying,
but as of now, there's notalent, there's no technology
that can do anything. But atleast you truly have an idea of
what's wrong.
Louis Celli (24:25):
So I want to take you back for a moment. And you
know, we talked a little bitabout your sponsors, and it
sounds like you have some, youknow, some really heavy hitters,
some really great sponsors, andnext year, I think I'll be
paying a couple of milliondollars in taxes someday. But
you know, that's what you askedfor. You never know. Yeah, that,
you know, that being said. Howmany patients can you possibly
(24:48):
work with? I mean, what doescapacity look like for you? And
you know, we wanted to talk alittle bit about how many of you
served already.
Mike Sformo (24:54):
So we have served 1000s of veterans from all over
the world actually all over theWe I still get calls from any
emails from people, how many canwe handle, it's not a matter of
capacity, it's a matter of theactual vetting process of going
through who we can help and whowe can't. So the team that we've
put together across UnitedStates is extremely fast,
(25:16):
literally in hours. And as theSecretary will tell you, he
understands this stuff that areal expert can look at 25 or 30
patients and have at least somesort of guide idea, you know,
these five forget at these. Sothat's how we're able to go
through that process. And thenfrom there, we can narrow down
faster and faster and faster,because the complexity of the
things that we're doing, there'snot that many people that are
(25:36):
shot out of helicopters, notthat many people that were, you
know, in an AMRAP, that flipped45 feet in the air. So it
narrows itself down the scope isnot as complex. The complexity
is explained in a certain peoplethat this is a PTSD or TBI
issue. And it's not for us.
Dr. David Shulkin (25:52):
You had mentioned before that you were
not getting the type ofcooperation that you had hoped
with the Department of VeteranAffairs. And I wonder if you
could just tell us, what wouldyou want from the department?
What could the VA do to be morecooperative with you?
Mike Sformo (26:09):
So there's one specific ask that I've asked the
VA and members of Congress inthe Senate, I wanted the
president, former PresidentTrump, I wanted President Biden
and President Obama. And I nevergot anywhere, as not with all
three. And that was anybody thatwe accept into our pipeline, the
VA automatically signs thereferral. That's it. That's all
(26:31):
we need is the simple referralsign that says, allow us to go
do 123 and bring them back. Andthat seems to be the the rubber
meets the road where the VAsays, No, we'll do it. We know
what's best. And that's that. Sothat's been the biggest issue.
Louis Celli (26:48):
So before we go, because we're running short on
time here, I just want to makesure that that we get to
anything that we didn't get achance to talk about, is there
anything that you want ourlisteners to know, and how do
they contact you if they thinkthat they need your help?
Mike Sformo (27:01):
This is one thing I want everyone to know, again,
screaming, and this goes to allthe veterans, for the veterans
that are screaming and yellingon on social media, or to the
VA, if you really want to makethings change, if you really
want to make things work, youhave to actually get involved
and screaming and yelling atdoctors and the nurses on the
frontlines. It's not going toget you anywhere, regardless of
(27:21):
what mental or physical ailmentsthat you have. So I would ask
all veterans before they expresstheir outrage and frustration
that they actually look at themembers of Congress in the
Senate, the ones actually writethe rules, regulations, that's
the real that's the real stakein the ground that they can they
can start. And the second thingis if there are some soldiers
out there and family membersthat have some severe spine or
(27:42):
scholarships, they can always goto Operation backbone, that org.
Or they can certainly they cangoogle my name Mike's formo. And
there'll be contact links allover. And we'll review what we
can and we provide a real quick,candid option, if any. And if
we're able to help, we will,
Dr. David Shulkin (27:59):
I think it's pretty clear that operation
backbones making a big impactwith our veterans. And I just
want to thank you for yourcontinued work and dedication to
this. I know that this is noteasy work. And but it's
something for you. That's a realcalling and a real mission. And
so thank you for talking to ustoday about this.
Mike Sformo (28:21):
Well, I appreciate the podcast. Thank you for much
for your service. Mr. Secretary,Louis, thank you for everything
you've done for our country. AndGod bless all the members of the
military out there. Thank you.
Thanks, Mike. Thanks, guys.
Louis Celli (28:34):
And that really is all the time that we have for
this week. Hey, listen, you'renot gonna want to miss next week
episode. We have Chairman MarkTakano from the house Veterans
Affairs Committee, who's goingto be talking about some
legislation that he's beenworking on for a while now.
That's going to help a lot ofveterans in our community. So
tune in next week. We'll see youthen.
Charlie Malone (28:56):
Thanks for listening to the policy bets
podcast. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts, go to policy. That'sdot org.
The biggest issue that we can provide and it's
even more important to them thanthe actual surgery if there's a
surgery performed, and that isat least some sort of mental
relief of knowing what could ormost likely is wrong fear sheet.
That seems to be the biggestissue. At least Mike I have some
sort of idea that my back wasbroken, or I had a chip in my
(00:24):
neck, or I have parts fractureor L fours crushed in my spine.
At least I have some sort of nowstarting point to understand
that I'm not crazy, I'm notnuts. And there is real problems
with me.
Charlie Malone (00:41):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast, engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shelton, and theExecutive Director of Policy
beds, Louis Celli, today's guestMike's a former CEO and founder
(01:03):
of Operation backbone.
Louis Celli (01:10):
Mr. Secretary, you started working at the VA just
after they passed the originalChoice Act, what was your
experience? Oh, really was yourexperience as a hospital CEO,
one of the reasons that youthink President Obama sought you
out,
Dr. David Shulkin (01:23):
there's no doubt Lou that when the White
House called me they werelooking for somebody with
private sector experience,because the wait time crisis had
become such an issue. And theyjust didn't want to keep using
the same solutions. They wanteda new way of looking at this.
And I came in with a pretty openmind about what I would find.
(01:45):
And what I found was was thatthe VA was offering unique
services that weren't availablein the private sector. And that
really gave me a very strongconviction that we had to fix
the VA system. And so we focusedon the wait time issues. And we
got, of course, the wait timesdown to essentially same day
(02:08):
services throughout the entirecountry, for primary care and
for behavioral health so thatpeople with urgent medical
problems wouldn't be waiting.
And I think that the VA isalways going to struggle being
the largest health care systemin the country with this issue
of access. And it's one of thereasons why we also published
the wait time so that we couldbe transparent about whether we
(02:30):
were continuing to have the typeof progress that we had seen
before.
Louis Celli (02:37):
Well, you know, I remember working on that bill
and all the back and forth aboutcommunity care and veteran's
preference and, you know, thirdparty payer processes. And it
was really a watershed momentfor VA, you know, we worked
closely with Dr. fishnets andhis team, while VA transformed
from a provider only model to apayer provider model, it was a
(02:58):
huge transformation.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:59):
Yeah, VA had really never acted as a
significant payer of health careservices. And there were
certainly bumps in the road. Anda lot of providers were having
to wait a very long time to getpaid. And that just wasn't fair
to them. So we worked veryclosely with Congress and with
the White House and workedinternally to get a lot of those
(03:21):
systems fixed. But again, due tothe size of the system, it took
a while and even as focused aswe were on it. It's still not a
perfect system, and it probablynever will be a perfect system.
But there certainly has been alot of progress over the years.
Louis Celli (03:38):
That's so true. As a matter of fact, I lost a steak
dinner bet to Carl Blake over atPVA because when the first
choice program was was beingimplemented, they specifically
said that it was going to be atemporary fix just to get these
folks out of the backlog. Andand then then we're going to go
back to, you know, the the corecompetencies of the VA and
(03:59):
Carl's like, nope, once you givethe veterans the choice to go
off, you know, to go off and getcommunity care, they're not
going to want to go back. And loand behold, you know, choice
turned into the permanent ChoiceAct that was signed later on by
President Trump and then evolvedinto the mission act.
Dr. David Shulkin (04:17):
Yeah, the difficult part about this, Lou,
and I know you understand thisis, is that if you're committed
to keeping a strong VA systemfor our veterans, which is
really the only way that I knowhow we can assure that we honor
our commitment to those who arereturning and need our help,
especially for specialexpertise, is to be able to make
(04:42):
sure that the VA focuses onthose things that the private
sector just simply doesn't dowell. prosthetics, orthotics,
behavioral health care,rehabilitation like spinal cord
injury and ocular traumas,environment No exposures, the
expertise that exists in the VAjust simply doesn't exist in the
(05:06):
private sector. But at the sametime, there are things that the
private sector is actually doingbetter than the VA. So what I
think we're striving for is ahybrid system where if you put
the veteran in the middle, theveterans interests first, and
you allow them to take advantageof wherever the best care is,
(05:29):
whether that's in the privatesector, or the VA. That's really
the system that I think that wewant for our country's veterans.
Well, the
Louis Celli (05:37):
program really has evolved. And I remember working
with several providers, youknow, who would come to the
Legion looking for some help andsome relief, you know, who
struggled to get paid from VA,and there were lots of growing
pains, some providers stoppedactually taking VA patients
because of it.
Dr. David Shulkin (05:52):
Yeah, that's true Lo. And there's been a lot
of effort working to evolve thisprogram. Now, of course, it's
become permanent law with themission act. And I think that
not surprising that Carl wonthat dinner from you, because
that's really the way that thesystem should have been designed
(06:14):
right from the beginning.
Louis Celli (06:16):
You know, just as a coincidence, our guest today has
been dealing, you know, withthis problem, really, from the
very beginning of this wholechoice movement. He you know, he
started before the Choice Act,and then lived through choice
one, Choice two, and then themission act. And, you know, he's
helped 1000s of veterans getsome of the very specialized
(06:37):
care that they've desperatelyneeded. Yeah,
Dr. David Shulkin (06:39):
I'm excited to talk to Mike. He had
contacted me several times, youknow, he's one of those guys
that, you know, when somebodycalls you and wants to get your
help, that he wasn't going totake no for an answer. And it's
not that I wanted to say no, butI was pretty busy. And he just
simply said, Well, look, tell mewhere you are, I'm going to
(07:01):
drive to sit down and talk toyou. And he did. We met that
next morning. And it was reallyinfectious, knowing how
dedicated he was how much hewanted to help veterans how much
he wanted to work with the VA.
And that really got me to followwhat he's doing and see the
great work that he's doing. SoI'm excited to hear from him
(07:24):
today.
Louis Celli (07:26):
That's true. And, you know, unfortunately, the
will not unfortunately, it justhappens to be a fact that the
Veterans Health Administrationis the law is the largest, you
know, integrated health caresystem in the United States.
But, you know, Mike's story,unfortunately, really isn't all
that uncommon. Over the years,I've definitely seen an
improvement at VA, but you know,it's hit or miss sometimes.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:47):
That's right.
So why don't we get Mike inhere?
Louis Celli (07:59):
Hey, Mike, welcome to the policy. That's podcast.
Mike Sformo (08:01):
I appreciate it, sir. Thank you for having me.
It's it's quite an honor. It'sit's pretty cool when you guys
are doing so thank you,
Dr. David Shulkin (08:06):
Mike. Thanks.
It's a really important topic wewant to talk to you about today,
because I think you have aunique perspective on the
Department of Veteran Affairs,not only with what's recently
been happening with the VA, inthe pandemic, but I know we've
spoken for years, that you'vebeen a resource for veterans
(08:26):
that have had difficulty innavigating the VA and getting
the type of care that they need.
And that's really, I think, thereason why you started and
really dove in the operationbackbone. But before we get into
that, and what you feel abouthow the VA is doing and caring
(08:47):
for veterans, you yourself are aveteran, of course, you spent
time in the Navy, why don't youtell us about that?
Mike Sformo (08:54):
Well, I appreciate it, Mr. Secretary, but I have to
tell you this the book, and Ididn't even tell this to Lou,
but the book that you wrote thatthe title is, it shouldn't be
this hard. This seems to be themotto of my kids because we
homeschool and they're like whydoes it have to be this hard?
And I said let me tell yousomething. So I the title of
your book is unfortunately withthe political environment today
(09:19):
it transcends into so manydifferent fields so I appreciate
what you've done in in that bookso
Dr. David Shulkin (09:24):
Okay, Mike, Mike, let's just get this clear
right from the beginning you'renot you don't receive commission
on my book sales deal.
Mike Sformo (09:31):
No, no, I you know when I when I talked to you and
I saw that the title of it and Ihear this all the time from
people why is it so hard? Idon't have these answers but
read this book, because he'slike the doctor spot so he got
he had nothing to do with this.
I just wanted to saycongratulations on that. That
was that was pretty cool thing.
In terms of the Navy I was Ijoined the Navy right out of
(09:53):
high school. The youngest for mydad said you're not the smartest
kid on the block. So you gottago do something. So I left low i
Little Town Hall. If you werejust by Buffalo, New York, and I
joined the Navy in the Gulf WarSan Diego, I was on a sub
tender. I was on a fast attack.
I'm sorry, a sub tender as 41.
Dr. David Shulkin (10:11):
Okay, Mike, Mike, Mike, let me just stop you
here. Now, anybody who can spendtime in the submarine? I don't
know how many of our listeners.
I've been in a submarine. Butbut for a short period of time,
how long would you spend? Whenyou're when you're out on a
mission in a sub before youwould get out the land?
Mike Sformo (10:31):
Well, let me make sure I clarify this. I was never
attached to when I was attachedto the submarine base at Point
Loma. So I did all the work onthere. So my longest was kind of
11 days. And I said The hellwith it. This is that's long
enough to be how you guys go sixor seven months at a time.
Forget it. So yes, I just wantto clarify those guys are pretty
good. And now females on whatthey do so yes, yeah.
Dr. David Shulkin (10:53):
Yep. That was, that was they're pretty
incredible people, the peoplethat serve in the sub,
Mike Sformo (10:58):
anybody that serves is, in my opinion is absolutely
outstanding. And so yeah, it wasan honor and a privilege to
serve in the military. The Navyis what got me where it is
today. I'm a huge supporter ofthe military, and but the Navy,
the Navy gave me everything Igot today. So I am extremely
grateful.
Louis Celli (11:14):
I remember getting quickly schooled one day on the
difference between a submarinerand a Submariner. So I try not a
lot
Mike Sformo (11:22):
of steak. Yeah, there's a lot of schooling out
there.
Louis Celli (11:26):
So you know, Mike, this is a great topic, because
it touches on several importantissues, as the Secretary said,
but you started operationbackbone a while back as a
matter of fact, and we talkedabout this earlier. You know,
when I, when I read through yourhistory, I remember that I had
heard this story before
Mike Sformo (11:41):
I reached out to you 2015 2016, I believe when
you are still part of theAmerican Legion. Yeah,
absolutely. And the real quickversion of Operation back when I
was when I hurt my neck, I got abill for $126. And I asked the
VA to pay it. And they said, No.
And I just remember saying,Well, if you can't take care of
my neck, and it's $126, what doyou do if you're really jacked
(12:03):
up like you're a real warfighteron marine and you're in the
middle of nowhere. And the VAdidn't have any answers for me.
And I was really upset I was Iwas a little disappointed. And I
was fortunate enough to havesome resources to go and get
what I had to get done. But thenI realized there's so many
others out there that don't haveit. So that's when I started
looking more into the the realmission of the VA and the
(12:27):
bureaucracy and the red tape.
And it was it was ratherdiscouraging. So that's how,
that's how we started operationback then.
Dr. David Shulkin (12:34):
Talk to us a little bit more about that you
didn't start operation back,well do pay health care bills of
veterans, you started becauseyou didn't think veterans were
getting the care that theyneeded in the VA.
Mike Sformo (12:49):
So the real point of the what really got to me was
the fact that you had to gothrough all this, all these
different steps along the way inorder to go get the treatment in
comparison to a civilian thatcould go online or use his or
her own insurance card. And theycould walk in and go get what
they wanted done. And I said, I,I didn't understand the
(13:12):
disconnect on how we are sentsix or 9000 miles away to go
fight and die. But when we comehome, we have to have a
bureaucrat tell us where to go,and how to function and are in a
for a hospital or in our ownmedical. So I didn't understand
that. So what happened was Isaid, Well, maybe if we could
(13:33):
just take the ones that are themost costly, and the most
complex and the most lengthy.
And the we wanted to partner.
The whole original point was topartner with the VA to simply
say, if you got 25 guys on thefront line, let us provide
another 25. And we could worktogether. And the whole goal was
to simply take the ones that arethe most complex and lengthy out
(13:53):
of the VA system, we can putthem into RS treat he or she and
we give them back to the VA sothey can continue the
outstanding follow up care thatthey're going to need. And it's
been a road. It's been a road.
And we've worked on 1000s ofsoldiers. I'm proud to say,
unfortunate, the VA hasn'twanted to play ball for well,
even to this day. It's beendifficult trying to help some of
(14:15):
the folks
Dr. David Shulkin (14:17):
so that's why you like the name of my book. It
shouldn't be this hard because,
Mike Sformo (14:21):
you know, it's sad, Mr. Secretary, it's sad when you
know what when I when I wastalking to you prior? And I
said, You know what? Here's Imean, how many people get to
serve one president, let alonetwo and what you've gone through
and for you to come out of theWhite House and write a book
like that. It was it wasdiscouraging. It was upsetting
and it actually motivated me tokeep going so you are you are
(14:45):
correct. It's It's hard enoughfor a former Secretary of the VA
to get things accomplished. Whatis an E four e five supposed to
do with no support,
Dr. David Shulkin (14:56):
but that didn't stop you. You've been
you've been despitediscouragement, despite the lack
of, of collaboration, you'vebeen out there just focused on
the mission of helping yourfellow veterans.
Mike Sformo (15:09):
And I want to make this very clear, the VA is
constantly kicked to the curb,and they're constantly getting
belittled. So I want to make thedistinction between bureaucrats
in the VA and the actualworkers. So this is not a VA
problem. This is a White Houseproblem from any administration
that you want to go to. Theseare bureaucrats that handcuff
(15:31):
these outstanding men and womenin the VA, to a point where if
they were to go out and do extrathings, they could actually
legally get in trouble on someof these things that they're
doing medically. So this is notthe men and women on the front
lines. This is the guy sittingon their shiny gas on the Hill
that are saying this is whatneeds to be done needs to be
done. And then they go use theirprivate insurance somewhere
(15:53):
else. And then they handcuffeveryone at the VA. So that's
that's the distinction thatneeds to be made.
Dr. David Shulkin (15:58):
Well, thanks.
Thanks for making thatdistinction. And you know, one
of the things, Mike, that Iwanted to get your thought about
was, did you see any differenceamong this difficulty of
navigating the system, once theChoice Act that now called the
mission Act was passed, andveterans have a legislative have
to be able to get the care inthe community that they need?
Mike Sformo (16:25):
Overall? Do I think it's an improvement? Yes, the
issue still comes to this. Howdo you take somebody that is TBI
or PTSD? Or is really jacked up?
Has opioid issues? How does heor she know how can how can they
actually function through thebureaucratic system? Whether
it's a Choice Act or not, theystill have to have someone to
(16:47):
help them navigate through thatprocess. So the overall
direction I think, is animprovement. Did I think it
solved the problem? No, I didthink it has curved some of it.
But it has not certainly solvedthe problem by any stretch.
Louis Celli (17:01):
So what are some of the bigger problems that you see
then with with helping theseveterans get the, you know, the
critical care that they need, insome cases, to be able to walk
again, or be able to sitcomfortably?
Mike Sformo (17:12):
The biggest issue that I that we have always come
in contact with when I askedwhat did your primary care
physician say, and the issue isthat when you have a severe back
problem or a neck spine issue,you need to go to a specialist,
so he or she can do the propertests, everything has to be done
upfront, the first time through,the problem I see within the VA
(17:36):
is they go to a primary carephysician that is not a
specialist in that specificfield. Therefore, now the
direction is already off,because if they say, we just
don't think it's warranted rightnow for an MRI or a CT or
further evaluation, but we canprovide some of these opioids or
some painkillers to get youthrough the next six months.
This is where I think it allstarts to deviate. So the
(17:59):
biggest issue is the need to beseen by the right specialist
first, so the correct diagnosisand the correct path can be
charted out.
Dr. David Shulkin (18:09):
That certainly makes a lot of sense
from a clinical point of view. Iwonder getting back to this
difficulty of of navigating thesystem. I think we all want to
be able to get our veterans theright type of care. When you
work with the Department ofDefense, are you seeing the same
challenges and getting ourveterans are covered by the
(18:31):
TRICARE system referred to theright people and getting the
right care?
Mike Sformo (18:35):
Let me put the analogy like this, Mr.
Secretary, because I want to bevery diplomatic and respectful.
I would look at it as a TomBrady. This breaks my heart but
the Buffalo Bills. Whatever TomBrady needs
Louis Celli (18:50):
you just you just keep keep right on brother.
Mike Sformo (18:55):
With a Tom Brady asks for something special
forces active duty Tom Brady.
And those individuals get itbecause they are on the field,
the focus is on them. And theyare the ones that can do the
operations. When they are nowoff the field and they're no
longer the Tom Brady, they're,they're the second string or
third string, it becomes less ofa priority. It's not to minimize
it. But there is certainly asuccession and Special Forces
(19:19):
department offense, active dutyall those seem to be much
easier, not even to navigate butto simply align the star so to
speak of what has to happen inthe Execute. Once they leave.
Like I said they become secondand third strength.
Louis Celli (19:36):
So that brings up a really good point of operation
backbone is a nonprofitorganization who exactly is
eligible to get help fromOperation backbone.
Mike Sformo (19:45):
So anybody that comes to us that has any types
of spine issues or scholarissues, physical ailments, we're
happy to take a look at and thisis where we've also run into a
lot of difficulties with PTSD,trauma, TBI, because it's not
our wheelhouse, so we've onlylooked at the actual images. So
(20:08):
for us to sort of qualify sortof speak, we have always had to
take a look at a physical imageso we can see what damage, if
any, and then what process couldbe moving forward. So that's
kind of how we did it.
Dr. David Shulkin (20:22):
Mike, what about the situation where the
Department of Veteran Affairsdoesn't pay the bill, and the
veteran doesn't have any otherinsurance? Does the patient of
their family get a bill fromOperation backbone?
Mike Sformo (20:35):
So that's an outstanding question. And I am
proud to say there's not oneveteran that we've worked on has
ever paid one bill at all. AndI'll tell you why. Because we
have constantly beat on the VAthrough various members of
Congress in the Senate, thattheir constituents need help.
Therefore, we would go tocertain members in the office
(20:56):
and say, here's the issues. Thisis what we can provide, this is
what we're going to need. Andeither the military liaison
individual get involved or theor the actual senator and or
congressman or woman wouldactually get involved in order
to get the referral approved.
Louis Celli (21:12):
So it brings up some great questions. One is how
many how many veterans have youhelped and how does your
nonprofit survive? Do you havesponsors? Do you have individual
donations? Do you have a greatgrandfather?
Mike Sformo (21:27):
No, no, rich grant?
No. So I was fortunate enough.
When I started this out ofbuffalo when Terry got involved,
Terry owns the Buffalo Bills inthe Buffalo Sabres. And then Mr.
Jacobs got involved. Mr. Jacobslives in Buffalo. Mr. Jacobs
owns the Boston Bruins. And hebuilt what they call the Jarrod
(21:48):
the Jacobs Vascular Institute inBuffalo. It's we're doing
minimally invasive upper cranialstroke protocol, protocols. It's
very, very impressiveorganization, you'd be
University of Buffaloneurosurgery. And those guys up
there, Dr. Levy, and sneaky and,and Dr. Hopkins and Dr. Kenny
Snyder, these are the realgenesis of what built operation
(22:09):
backbone. So I was fortunateenough to have some heavy
hitters jump in to help supportand fund what we were doing. And
I will tell you, as it grew, thefrustration mounted for some of
these individuals that said, Whyam I paying three $400 million a
year in tax? What Why? Why areyou the one that's running
around doing all this? Why doyou need my plane? I should be.
(22:33):
So that was a big eye openingexperience for a lot of people.
So it's it was very uniquesituation that we had very
fortunate.
Dr. David Shulkin (22:42):
Okay, Mike, the bottom line here is, is that
you're helping veterans, Iwonder if you know what
percentage of veterans are beinghelped in the program, and what
are the most common types ofinjuries or issues that you're
dealing with when you're dealingwith veterans,
Mike Sformo (22:59):
the biggest issue that we can provide, and it's
even more important to them thanthe actual surgery if there's a
surgery performed, and that isat least some sort of mental
relief of knowing what could ormost likely is wrong with your
sheet. That seems to be thebiggest issue, at least Mike, I
have some sort of idea that myback was broken, or I had a chip
(23:21):
in my neck, or I had parsfracture, or L fours crushed in
my spine, at least I have somesort of now starting point to
understand that I'm not crazy,I'm not nuts. And there is real
problems with me. So providingthat relief to them. And the
family has just been absolutelya wonderful God given thing that
we've that we've experiencedwith the families. On the
(23:43):
physical side, we also provide atrue outcome. And I always say,
look, it's like you have 10fingers, you know, eight of them
are just not going to work nomatter what happens. So we're
going to have to sharpen the twothat you have. And those two
fingers are now going to have tooperate for both hands. So
you're going to have to learn toadjust physically,
professionally, spiritually,financially, with what you have.
(24:05):
So we're able to provide notonly a mental better quality of
life, but we're at least providethem with some sort of options
or relief, or even the bad newsto them is good news by saying,
but as of now, there's notalent, there's no technology
that can do anything. But atleast you truly have an idea of
what's wrong.
Louis Celli (24:25):
So I want to take you back for a moment. And you
know, we talked a little bitabout your sponsors, and it
sounds like you have some, youknow, some really heavy hitters,
some really great sponsors, andnext year, I think I'll be
paying a couple of milliondollars in taxes someday. But
you know, that's what you askedfor. You never know. Yeah, that,
you know, that being said. Howmany patients can you possibly
(24:48):
work with? I mean, what doescapacity look like for you? And
you know, we wanted to talk alittle bit about how many of you
served already.
Mike Sformo (24:54):
So we have served 1000s of veterans from all over
the world actually all over theWe I still get calls from any
emails from people, how many canwe handle, it's not a matter of
capacity, it's a matter of theactual vetting process of going
through who we can help and whowe can't. So the team that we've
put together across UnitedStates is extremely fast,
(25:16):
literally in hours. And as theSecretary will tell you, he
understands this stuff that areal expert can look at 25 or 30
patients and have at least somesort of guide idea, you know,
these five forget at these. Sothat's how we're able to go
through that process. And thenfrom there, we can narrow down
faster and faster and faster,because the complexity of the
things that we're doing, there'snot that many people that are
(25:36):
shot out of helicopters, notthat many people that were, you
know, in an AMRAP, that flipped45 feet in the air. So it
narrows itself down the scope isnot as complex. The complexity
is explained in a certain peoplethat this is a PTSD or TBI
issue. And it's not for us.
Dr. David Shulkin (25:52):
You had mentioned before that you were
not getting the type ofcooperation that you had hoped
with the Department of VeteranAffairs. And I wonder if you
could just tell us, what wouldyou want from the department?
What could the VA do to be morecooperative with you?
Mike Sformo (26:09):
So there's one specific ask that I've asked the
VA and members of Congress inthe Senate, I wanted the
president, former PresidentTrump, I wanted President Biden
and President Obama. And I nevergot anywhere, as not with all
three. And that was anybody thatwe accept into our pipeline, the
VA automatically signs thereferral. That's it. That's all
(26:31):
we need is the simple referralsign that says, allow us to go
do 123 and bring them back. Andthat seems to be the the rubber
meets the road where the VAsays, No, we'll do it. We know
what's best. And that's that. Sothat's been the biggest issue.
Louis Celli (26:48):
So before we go, because we're running short on
time here, I just want to makesure that that we get to
anything that we didn't get achance to talk about, is there
anything that you want ourlisteners to know, and how do
they contact you if they thinkthat they need your help?
Mike Sformo (27:01):
This is one thing I want everyone to know, again,
screaming, and this goes to allthe veterans, for the veterans
that are screaming and yellingon on social media, or to the
VA, if you really want to makethings change, if you really
want to make things work, youhave to actually get involved
and screaming and yelling atdoctors and the nurses on the
frontlines. It's not going toget you anywhere, regardless of
(27:21):
what mental or physical ailmentsthat you have. So I would ask
all veterans before they expresstheir outrage and frustration
that they actually look at themembers of Congress in the
Senate, the ones actually writethe rules, regulations, that's
the real that's the real stakein the ground that they can they
can start. And the second thingis if there are some soldiers
out there and family membersthat have some severe spine or
(27:42):
scholarships, they can always goto Operation backbone, that org.
Or they can certainly they cangoogle my name Mike's formo. And
there'll be contact links allover. And we'll review what we
can and we provide a real quick,candid option, if any. And if
we're able to help, we will,
Dr. David Shulkin (27:59):
I think it's pretty clear that operation
backbones making a big impactwith our veterans. And I just
want to thank you for yourcontinued work and dedication to
this. I know that this is noteasy work. And but it's
something for you. That's a realcalling and a real mission. And
so thank you for talking to ustoday about this.
Mike Sformo (28:21):
Well, I appreciate the podcast. Thank you for much
for your service. Mr. Secretary,Louis, thank you for everything
you've done for our country. AndGod bless all the members of the
military out there. Thank you.
Thanks, Mike. Thanks, guys.
Louis Celli (28:34):
And that really is all the time that we have for
this week. Hey, listen, you'renot gonna want to miss next week
episode. We have Chairman MarkTakano from the house Veterans
Affairs Committee, who's goingto be talking about some
legislation that he's beenworking on for a while now.
That's going to help a lot ofveterans in our community. So
tune in next week. We'll see youthen.
Charlie Malone (28:56):
Thanks for listening to the policy bets
podcast. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts, go to policy. That'sdot org.
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