Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to the
podcast.
Today we have special guestSusan Salinger, who is the
author and researcher behind thebook Sidelined how Women Can
Navigate a Broken HealthcareSystem.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Sidelined is a book
that examines the many ways in
which some women manage, andsometimes mismanage, their own
health care.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You know, tish?
This book opens with a greatquote from one of my favorite
and, I think, your favoritewriters too, maya Angelou, and
it says I'm interested inwomen's health because I'm a
woman.
I'd be a darn fool to not be onmy own side, and all I can say
to that is truth, truth, truth.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Absolutely.
You know, susan's book exploreshow women we seem to
simultaneously tend to beextremely conscientious about
taking care of ourselves, yet atthe same time we inadvertently
undermined our own healthcare.
So Salinger's research revealedhow conflicted many women are
(01:11):
about the medical decisions thatthey end up ultimately making.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Wow, this is going to
be a great conversation, but
before we get to Susan Tish, youknow I love this part of the
show.
It's our obsessions.
What do you got for me thisweek?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, now you're
you're you're going to love and
hate this one, okay.
Okay, we need, we need to startthinking about bathing suit
season.
Right, I know it might seem alittle premature for some, but
we need to start thinking aboutthis.
And you know, at this point inour lives we need a little
premature for some, but we needto start thinking about this.
And you know, at this point inour lives we need a little, like
(01:49):
you know, pull and tuck and allthese right places right to
make us feel good and look good.
And you know the brand Cupshehas a tummy or one piece tummy
control.
Has a nice deep V, has a doublestrap, so it's a little
interesting at the top, hasruching along the sides, so
(02:17):
that's like very body-friendly.
They refer to it as the holygrail of the MomBod.
Flattering swimwear and some ofthese you know that are
compression.
They're very expensive.
This comes in under $35.
And we're going to have a linkand it has gorgeous colors.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Wow, all I can say is
you had me at ruching and
technical control.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, Ellen, you
always have something very
different because we never shareour obsessions with each other
before we get on.
So one of these times we'regoing to be doing the same thing
, but it hasn't happened yet.
But what is yours, Ellen?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Well, and this week
is no different.
My obsession is this 23-inchshell lamp and I know I've
already shared it on socialmedia with our followers.
But I love that kind of coastalvibe, coming from New England
and the East Coast, you know,and even though I'm in
California, I kind of have alittle bit of a beachy thing
(03:16):
going on in my house and when Isaw this lamp I could not resist
.
It's beside my bed right nowand it is so sweet.
The base is hundreds of tinylittle white shells and as a
white um, a white lampshade, andit can go anywhere.
It could go in a living room,even a kitchen, a bathroom,
(03:37):
hands down, the cutest thingI've put in my house and, again,
a great price point.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I love some beach
chic going on, not the kitschy
kitschy stuff you know with with, you know putting what a
fishing nets and stuff, but justthat little elegant, little
touch that just brings you backto a moment that you spent at
the beach.
So love that one, love thatpick, for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yes, and as always,
we will have links to our
sessions in our show notes andI'm sure you can find them all
over our socials.
Okay, so let's get to thisweek's episode.
I want to welcome our dynamicguest, susan.
She was born and raised in LosAngeles, attended UCLA, studied
English a woman after my ownheart.
(04:23):
Now, in her 80s, susan lives inNorthern California to be near
her incredible family, herdaughters, her grandchildren.
She comes with a cat named Maxand a dog named JD, and when
she's not speaking about herbook or spending time with her
family, you'll find Susan powerlifting to stay in shape, I know
(04:44):
right Susan
Speaker 2 (04:45):
welcome, I think
that's why she looks so young.
That's why she looks so youngand she's so vibrant.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Welcome to the show,
Susan.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, thank you so
much.
I'm delighted to be here and Ilove my.
Well, I don't love my powerlifting, but I do love what it
does for me.
It's just so darn boring, butthat's a whole nother thing.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I do love what it
does for me it's just so darn
boring, but that's a wholenother story.
Okay, well, susan, I reallywant to get right into this.
What prompted you to write abook like Sidelined, and why is
this book should be on everywoman's bookshelf.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Well, the story about
why I wrote it truly was a
little bit of a journey, to putit mildly.
But gosh, many years ago, Ithink I was in my 20s or 30s and
, as you said, I'm 80 now or 81.
So it was quite a while back.
But I agreed to have somesurgery that I knew I didn't
need.
I had switched medications.
I started having some symptoms.
(05:44):
It was totally obvious to methat it was the new meds that
were causing my issue.
And the doctor said, no, itisn't.
And he did a bunch of tests andfound nothing.
And he said we really have todo exploratory surgery.
And I did push back a little,even at that age, and I said
well, why don't we just, youknow, go back on the old meds?
I mean, let's find out?
(06:06):
No, no, no, no.
He was, I think he was reallyworried about ovarian cancer and
if he'd been right he wouldhave saved my life, except that
he wasn't right.
And so I did agree to thesurgery.
I had it, everything, nothingwas wrong, you know.
And I went on, I was working, Ihad little kids, etc.
And then, like 100 years later,my husband and I sold our
(06:28):
business.
We had been in businesstogether and I retired for about
three seconds.
I don't know what I wasthinking.
That was a really bad idea, butanyway I did and my family said
if I didn't go do somethingthey were going to kill me
because I was driving everybodycrazy.
So I went back to school andjust by happen I really went
back to take either more Englishor some psych classes, and I
(06:50):
couldn't get into either.
So I ended up in anthropology,which I had never taken as an
undergraduate and I just lovedit.
And for one of my classes I dida project and I have no idea
why, but I did a project onwomen who have had
hysterectomies.
And I have no idea why, but Idid a project on women who had
had hysterectomies and, much tomy surprise, a couple of them
had also agreed to that surgery,which was irrevocable, even
(07:11):
though they didn't think theyneeded it.
In fact two of them swore to me, looking back, that their
symptoms were just premenopausal, but here they had had this
hysterectomy.
So that really, you know,triggered my own memories and it
all came flooding back to meand I just wondered how, as
(07:32):
women, we make medical decisions.
Why do we keep doing this?
And that was really the impetusfor the book.
I interviewed about 60 women,and all with different diseases.
I called them women's diseasesI mean autoimmune, because
mostly women get them whateverdifferent.
But what I was looking for werethe behavioral I guess changes
and what the women had in common, and they had many things in
(07:53):
common that influenced theirdecisions and I was really
surprised and I think that, aswomen, we all need to be aware
of some of the things we do toourselves and I'm not blaming
women, I don't mean it that waybut we do them unconsciously and
we do them inadvertently and Ithink that it does present some
(08:16):
obstacles for our health.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I would have to agree
.
Your book doesn't blame.
It empowers women to makestronger decisions for
themselves.
So I absolutely agree.
You came across not in blaminglike women, but empowering women
.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I'm so glad to hear
that truly because I don't blame
women at all.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I agree, susan.
It definitely empowered rightfrom the first page.
And can you share a little bitmore about the interviews or
kind of the focus group format,and how did you get women to be
so forthcoming?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
You know, they were
all so eager to help.
It was truly lovely and I'meven finding that on my second
book Women really want to helpother women and everybody was so
generous in sharing theirstories.
I found the group of the basisof, or most of the women I guess
I interviewed I just found overthe internet I went to like
(09:20):
support groups and I don't knowa bunch of others, and this was,
you know, a few years ago.
So I went to their homes whichI probably wouldn't do today
actually, and interviewed themin person.
And I think when you, when youtalk to people face to face, you
can get a lot of information.
I mean, interviewing is justit's.
The trick to interviewing andto get such intimate information
(09:42):
as I did is I learned that thetrick is not to interview people
you know, interview people youdon't know, because I had one
woman say to me well, she wastelling me something sexual and
she said, well, I might as welltell you this I'll never see you
again.
And she was right, I've neverseen her again, you know.
I mean it was and it was.
It was so generous of her,truly.
(10:02):
But the focus groups werefascinating and I'll tell you
about those.
First of all, the way I puttogether a focus group is I did
two of them and I just threwmoney at the problem.
I hired a focus group companyand before I knew it I had two
focus groups.
But the point of my point indoing that was to get women from
diverse geographicalbackgrounds.
Since I was in LA, I didn't flyall over the country, but what
(10:32):
I found out in the focus groupswhich was not my intention was
that so many of the women feltso much shame about being ill
and I had noticed that in myinterviews as well, but I hadn't
focused on it in the same way.
But in both focus groups veryfew of the women had talked with
anyone else about their illnessother than their doctor, and
they were all so grateful to bethere because, much to their
surprise, they all shared thesame issues.
(10:54):
They hesitated to get secondopinions, they waited too long
to go to the doctor, stuff likethat.
So it was eye-opening for me.
I'm a talker, as I'm sure youcan tell.
I love it.
But I mean you'd ask me how Iam and I wonder how much time
you have, because I'll just tellyou everything.
But most people apparently arenot that way, and so the focus
(11:17):
groups were a real revelation,and, as women, we need to talk
to each other more.
I mean, that was the lesson Ilearned from the focus group.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
We all need support.
We do, and you know Tish and Iboth had moms.
I think that waited too long orreally put doctors up on
pedestals around health issues,and I'm hoping that Tish and I
have learned something from thattoo.
Right Like that, eachgeneration really can grow
(11:47):
around that.
Wouldn't you agree with that,tish?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I do, but I know for
me personally I still have some
growth to make.
I still allowed myself to bepushed around recently, because
I think when you're at your mostvulnerable it's hard to be
strong, and I think havingsomebody whether it's a daughter
(12:12):
, a friend or something likethat to help prop you up is oh
so important.
But what I loved about yourbook, Susan, was you kind of
detail six common decisions thatwomen make that inadvertently
may lead us to undermine our ownhealth, and I would love to
(12:32):
kind of we're going to go, Ellenand I will go back and forth
talking about each of them and Iwould love for you to share
kind of your thoughts on what wedo and maybe what we could do.
And the first one is nosurprise at all we put others
first.
We're just born and bred thatway, right, yeah, we are.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
But I know I'm
interrupting you, which is
probably for a guest, but I wantyou to cut yourself some slack
on what you were just sayingabout your own diagnosis,
because it is very hard.
Not only are you vulnerablewhen the doctor says or starts
to push you around, but you alsowant an answer.
You want some relief from yoursymptoms.
(13:12):
And so easy to fall into thetrap of well, he may be a jerk,
but maybe he has the answer andI'll go home and take two pills
and call him in the morning andfeel better.
I mean, I'm not sure.
I think it's just really hardis what I want to say for all of
us, myself included.
But to answer your question now, women do put themselves last.
(13:33):
In fact, there was a reallyinteresting study done which I
must admit was really not asurprise where researchers gave
women a list of five things toprioritize.
You know, what would they takecare of or what would they put
first?
And of course, most of themalmost all put their children
first.
Second, they put their pets,which I just loved.
Third, they put their elderlyparents, and I was thinking to
(13:56):
myself as I read that here I'man elderly parent and if my kids
put their dog ahead of me, Imean I'll kill them, anyway.
Fourth, they take care of theirsignificant other.
And fifth, we take care ofourselves, which is last.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
And what?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
happens is we delay
going to the doctor and because
we're busy, we have projects atwork, we got to make lunches,
the kids got to play at schooland one of my interviews, as a
matter of fact, a woman had a Ikeep saying mastectomy and that
is not what she had.
She had a mammogram and I dothat every time but she had a
mammogram and the hospitalcalled her.
They wanted her to come back.
(14:32):
That looked like there might besome problems with it and she
meant to go.
She really did, but it wasraining and her husband was out
of town and she couldn't getchildcare, and, and, and, and,
and, and.
Now she has stage three breastcancer and it's you know, it's
got a long road ahead of her.
So don't put it off.
When you put things off, whenyou put yourself past like that,
(14:53):
a minor problem easily becomesa major one.
So I think that that's justsomething to remember.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And it's so true,
susan, I see so many of my
friends doing this.
I happen to be in the camp of Ilike to go to doctors and get
data, which Tish and Icompletely again opposites here,
opposites on this, but I knowI'm unusual in that and I'm like
(15:21):
, oh, give me that data, sureI'll take that test.
Yeah, I think.
The second thing I think wewanted to talk about, though, is
that, as women were too quickto defer either defer to the
doctor or to a protocol.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Correct.
I think that what happens, andat least in my research, when I
researched this, the researchsaid that women were more
hesitant than men to get asecond opinion.
I'm not sure that that's stilltrue, but we certainly are
hesitant.
Whether we're hesitant morethan men is irrelevant anyway, I
(15:57):
suppose.
But we don't want to be rude,we don't want to question the
doctor's decision and it's apain in the ass to get a second.
You know you got to ask yourfirst doctor how they feel about
it, because you don't want toupset them, but you need to.
You kind of want theirrecommendation.
In fact there's a chapter in mybook on second opinions that
(16:18):
tells you how to get one.
There are some techniques thatyou should utilize, but I think
that the first hurdle toovercome is to get one.
And now that I've had thatsurgery, I could have gotten a
second opinion.
I mean, I could have gotten anold medication I wasn't going to
keel over in a week and I couldhave gotten a second opinion.
I mean it was not an emergencybut, like most of us, I just
(16:43):
said, oh sure, whatever you, youthink, and that's not a good
thing to do, I don't recommendit.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, I mean one of
my best friends.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
she allowed her
sister to say oh, don't get a
second opinion, you're going tohurt the doctor's feelings and
she has stage four cancer.
Right, and I begged her sobbingand crying just go to the
(17:13):
cancer center.
You have a cancer center downthe street, go there.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I tried to explain.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
But she was so
convinced that she didn't want
to hurt this very nice doctor'sfeelings.
And right before she shefinally did go to the cancer
treatment center.
But before, right before thatshe told them that she was going
.
They said, yeah, we've neverhad a cancer like yours.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, you know, this
is interesting.
I was on a show with a doctorand she was telling me, but I've
had two people tell me this Twodoctors tell me that number one
they like second opinion.
Not every doctor does these twohappen to, but they said, for
one thing, it confirms what theythought or not.
And you know one thing thateverybody should, should, know
(18:03):
and I'll get to the second thingthey said in a minute but is
that?
You know, a doctor sees whatthey expect to see.
So if you take the samesymptoms to a psychologist,
they're going to tell you thatthere's stress.
A gastroenterologist could tellyou well, you know, you're
having stomach aches.
A rheumatologist will tell youthat you're in some pain,
whatever.
So I mean they all can betotally competent.
(18:24):
It's not about the doctor.
So there's a reason for asecond opinion.
But the thing the doctor saidthat struck me the most is it.
It helps them in a malpracticesuit because if there's a second
opinion that agreed with them,and now there's two opinions,
they have a much strongerdefense against any yeah,
problems.
Yeah, I never looked.
Everybody seems to think of asecond opinion as a
(18:46):
confrontation.
They were looking at it as acollaboration and that's a hell
of a difference.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I love that and I
think that's what you should.
You should say to a doctor look, I'm not looking to confront
you, I'm looking to collaborateand you know, reaffirm what, and
you know, reaffirm what you'reseeing.
And anyone who's confident inwhat they do should never, ever,
be afraid of that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, and I think too
that if you do have a doctor
that objects to you getting asecond opinion and it's serious,
I mean like cancer or surgerythen you might want to think
about changing doctors.
That's how strongly I feelabout it.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I agree, susan, I
agree, and I think everyone
should read that part of thebook.
I mean, I had asked for asecond opinion for something
with one of my kids and I wentabout it in a very incorrect way
.
Once I really understood thisand the doctors, they like data,
they're very data driven, andso I agree with you that you
(19:51):
know, any doctor that doesn'twelcome one is probably not a
doctor.
You, you know, you want to staywith, but there also are great
ways, as Tish said, to ask forit, and so anyone out there, any
of our listeners that arethinking about this, don't shy
away from it.
Definitely read that part ofSusan's book.
(20:11):
I think it's chapter two.
I mean I put it up.
Yes, it's very, very near thefront.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Now this one, like we
had talked about it a few
minutes ago where the otherthing that we tend to do is we
blame ourselves for getting sickyes, yes, as if that's going to
do us any good you know that I,that is, that is the.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
The.
The know, that is what I guess.
What I found that surprised methe very most, because I don't
do that when I'm sick.
I am pissed.
I'm pissed at the world.
I don't care if it's a cold orI can't bear being in bed.
I mean, there's so much to do,places to go, people to see, but
everybody was so ashamed.
Here's what they did, which Ifelt was just so like.
(20:59):
I wish they all had cutthemselves some slack.
So many women, from breastcancer to lupus and even
endometriosis.
They thought that their illnesswas due to their stress, that
they were so stressed out thatthey couldn't handle their lives
.
So when they got sick, if theytold anybody it was like they
(21:20):
were advertising to the worldhow they just couldn't manage
things.
So they became very ashamed.
That was the main reason womenin the focus groups didn't share
, because they didn't wantpeople to think that they
couldn't manage things.
I mean, it was just amazing tome.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Wow, that is amazing
to me because, like you, susan,
I've never blamed myself forgetting sick, but I think shame
runs deep, right Across manydifferent parts of our lives,
and so now that you bring thisup, I can understand that and a
lot of women, I do think, alwaysfeel stress and then go to that
(22:02):
spot would blame stress.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, I think what's
important to recognize and I did
not realize this until I didthe book.
But illness is so random, youknow, I mean, think about it,
which I never had, frankly, butsome people get COVID and some
don't, and some alcoholics getliver disease and some don't,
and some smokers get lung cancer.
I mean, sometimes it's the luckof the draw, it is what it is,
(22:28):
and genetics plays such apowerful role.
My father-in-law, you know,died about 85, I think he was.
He ate nothing but red meat,never exercised, hated
vegetables but was green, hejust pushed it, wouldn't even
let it be on his plate.
I mean, he did everything wrongaccording to all the current
research.
(22:48):
But you know, there it is.
It's random.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, no, go on, I'm
sorry no, I, I was gonna say I
think that's the part you know.
For some women I feel like,yeah, we understand the
randomness of it, but if wehaven't taken good care of
ourselves, that's where theshame piece, I think, can come
in strong.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yes and I, but in all
honesty I think it comes in
regardless.
I mean there were people thatsaid, like you're just saying,
maybe I should have napped more,maybe I should have napped less
, maybe I should have gained 10pounds or maybe I should lose 10
pounds, I mean, but they did.
But the reason they wereblaming themselves is because
they felt they had no time totake care of themselves.
(23:32):
They were just too busy.
It boiled down to I have totake care of themselves.
They were just too busy.
It boiled down to I have totake care of everybody but
myself.
Which just takes us back tochapter one.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Right Takes us right
back to the beginning.
Next time we'd love to justchat a little bit about how
women do speak a differentlanguage than our doctors many,
many times.
And there's a statistic that45% of women diagnosed with
autoimmune diseases were labeledas chronic complainers.
And I've been very open that Ihave Hashimoto's, which is an
(24:08):
autoimmune disease, and it'strue.
There is this piece of notwanting to seem like a whiner
around.
I'm fatigued, I feel, you knowjust a lot of fatigue.
I don't have a lot of energyand, again, I do think women
really pull back from that.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, I think what
the research showed and I'm
certainly guilty of this myselfis that when women go to the
doctor and, as I said, I trulydo this I tell them everything.
I mean it's not just that mythroat hurts, but that it's hard
for me to drive carpool and Imiss work because I have
temperature again, and, and, and, and, and, and.
(24:50):
By the time I'm done, myphysical symptoms can actually
get lost in the morass of myemotions, you know.
Men are much more objective,much more sustained.
They seem to from what theresearch says, and I hate making
general statements, but menseem to have a more, a different
approach.
They look at it as a problemthe doctor and I are going to
(25:11):
solve together, so they're moresustained.
They're more objective.
Doctor and I are going to solvetogether, so they're more
distinct, they're more objective, whereas women go out and spill
the whole thing, which can leadus to a more psychological
diagnosis.
That can't.
That's, I think, one reason.
Many times women are sent homewith antidepressants or whatever
, because they've told thedoctor how stressed they are.
And they are, I mean.
I don't mean that they're notbut, may not be the stress, may
(25:36):
not be what needs to be treated.
There's an organic.
There's very possibly anorganic cause as well.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, we did a
different episode specifically
on autoimmune and herrecommendation was to take the
emotion out of it.
The emotion out of it Just likeand pre-plan what you're going
to talk about and just have likebullet points of symptoms and
not talk about the emotionalthings that are wrapped around
(26:06):
all that so the doctor can seedirectly into you.
Know, again, it's about thatwhich you're speaking to.
It's about talking the samelanguage they're talking.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yes and no, because I
don't think I agree.
I know where she's coming fromand I certainly agree partially
with that.
But I think it's also importantto tell the doctor how you're
feeling, because I mean, thecatch-22, or the tricky part is
here that women do suffer fromstress and depression and
anxiety more than men do, andthe doctor does have to make a
(26:40):
decision as to whether are you?
How do I know if I'm sick, if I, if my hip hurts because I'm
stressed, or am I stressedbecause my hip hurts?
Um, if I don't tell the doctorwhat's going on, I think think
it's trickier for them.
I want them to know me and Idon't complain.
So when I come in with acomplaint oh, she never does
(27:02):
that I want them to sit up andlisten.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
So anyway.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I'm not 100% sure I'd
agree with that and I'd like to
skip.
You know, interrupt me if you'drather stick to the program.
But I'm very interested in whatshe said about coming in with a
list of symptoms, because thatis that would be the most
important piece of advice that Icould give you.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
In fact, we were
talking about because our
obsession, my obsession thatweek was a medical planner which
allowed you to startdocumenting symptoms that you're
having, especially your chronicstuff, as well as your medical
history.
But we were talking about itespecially in the context of
medicine is a business and yourtime you have this much time
(27:50):
with the doctor and you got tomake the most of every moment.
And you've got to make the mostof every moment so to just, you
know, kind of speak to them in away that they can hear you most
effectively by talking aboutsymptoms and not the emotion
around it which sometimes takesover and you don't, you never
(28:10):
get to the symptoms.
And so the doctor, that's allthey have, Absolutely.
You know they're going to sayantidepressant, because all
they've heard is stress, stress,upset, ideal.
They haven't heard the symptoms.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, that's
absolutely true, and I think
it's so important to go in witha written list because that way
the doctor can review it.
The same doctor that likedsecond opinions was saying she
loves it when patients come inwith a list and prioritized, and
she said that sometimes thelast thing she'll feel is the
(28:45):
most important and it gives thema chance to it just helps you
focus the whole visit.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I agree, and I also
think this idea of the medical
plan or really tracking helpsyou before you go in.
be like you know that happenedfour times in the past four,
three, two months, two weeks andit really does help keep you on
track with a doctor.
I know that just last on ourlist of these six things is that
(29:17):
we're too quick to reach for apill, and I think that again,
tish and I have talked aboutthis in the past that a lot of
times there isn't a pill, just asingle solution.
This is something that's muchmore holistic.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yes, and rather than
quote the data at you, I can
just tell you two experiencesI've had with being too quick to
reach for a pill, neither ofwhich were were any doctor's
fault.
But this was this about twoyears ago.
I woke up.
I've never had any pain.
I'm just really, as I said,it's genetics.
I don't feel pain.
So I, I feel it, but I, I justdon't have it.
(29:55):
So I woke up with a sore thumb.
I mean just silly little thing,and I thought, eh, it'll go
away.
But it didn't.
So a month later I mean becauseI, you know, when you write
these books you have everydisease that you read about so I
decided I had bone cancer orsomething.
So I went, finally decided togo to an arthritis doctor.
I started there because I felttoo stupid to go to an
(30:16):
oncologist with a sore thumb.
So anyway, she took an x-rayand everything and she said yes,
you know, you have arthritis,here is a pill, et cetera.
You know, take this and thepain away.
And so I said OK, but you know,I'm on Lexapro for depression.
My husband recently passed away, so I need the Lexapro.
Will they interfere or interactwith each other?
(30:36):
And she said no, you'reabsolutely safe, no problem.
So I trot home and because ofthe research I've been doing,
and I looked up the Lexapro andwhatever her pill was and she
was mostly right and there was a99% chance that there would not
be a problem.
But there was a 1% chance somepeople had gotten brain bleeds
(30:57):
from the two pills together.
So my point on that is I had toweigh the risks and the
benefits.
Did I want to risk a potentialbrain bleed?
I admit I probably wouldn'thave gotten it, but somebody's
the 1% right and is it worthtaking a pill like that in order
to save one thumb?
(31:18):
I've got 900 liters, you know.
So I just threw the pills outand the thumb is now fine anyway
.
And you know, that's storynumber one do your research.
And the second thing justhappened yesterday.
Actually I'm on, I was onlipitor for high cholesterol and
I'm also taking Lexapro andblood pressure medication and
(31:39):
everybody said there's no, youknow no worries.
So I looked up.
I haven't been feeling quiteright.
I've got pain from in my hip,which I know now is the Lipitor,
and the Lipitor happens tointeract with my blood pressure
medication.
It's a moderate interaction andwith some of the symptoms
because I've been waking upreally depressed and it's the
combination of the two.
(32:00):
So I mean long story short, I'mgetting off of everything but
the blood pressure.
But the point is you have to doyour research, the doctors, and
they don't always tell you orthey may not know.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
They may not know,
yeah, and you know what's right
for you.
I think this is the empowermentpiece that Tish mentioned right
up front.
Some people may say that 1%chance is worth it, but for you
you're like, clearly this is notworth it for me and I think
it's kind of that self-awarenessand empowerment that I'm really
(32:34):
taking away from this piece ofthe conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Absolutely.
And the other thing I hopeeverybody will take away is that
it's so important to get onyour computer and research it.
I mean I just put in Lexaproand Imolipine, or however you
say it, and a whole bunch ofstuff came up.
I mean, it wasn't a trickyresearch job.
Let me just add that at theback of my book there is a huge
(32:57):
resource list, which is, in myopinion, the most important part
of the book.
I tell you how to research.
I've done it for you, really.
I give you the websites youneed to check your diagnosis or
to check the medications orwhatever Anything you want to
know.
There'll be something backthere that will help you do it.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Oh, I love that.
We'll make sure that we put alink to that too, if we can, but
really important for ourlisteners.
I know, tish, you wanted totalk about this.
Nice Girls Finish Last.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Oh yeah, I love when
I saw chapter two with Nice.
Girls Finish Last that.
So explain what you meant bythat for our listeners well,
that's the second opinion thing.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Like your friend, if
you hesitate to go to the doctor
or in her case she didn't evenget a first opinion but by
trying to play nice and not hurtthe doctor's feelings, you know
, we're taught to play nice,we're taught to be rude.
We never take our ball and gohome.
You know we stay there and tryto make it work.
And that's what I meant by that, because with your health, with
(34:03):
medicine, that's not a good,that's not a good MO.
You know it just isn't youreally want to.
How do I say this?
I think if I got a seriousdiagnosis from a doctor, the
first thing I would do and Ithink this is so important and
I'll go back to your question, Ipromise, because it's all
related but the first thing I dois to ask the doctor to write
(34:27):
down the name of my diagnosis soI can go home and look it up
and have him or her spell it sothat, because my spelling is
terrible, that, and have themfor her spell it so that,
because my spelling is terrible.
And then I want to know, forexample, is are?
You've seen a lot?
I know you're experienced.
You've seen a lot of patientswith these symptoms.
Have they all had disease x?
So now when I go home maybehe'll say no, well, you know,
(34:49):
some of them have had disease y.
So now I have two things I canlook up and I don't want to
finish last so now I'm going togo back to the doctor and I'm
going to say you know, let's geta second opinion on this.
I see what you're saying.
It could be x, it could be y,what do you have?
Anybody that you recommend thatyou think could?
Could you know, agree, disagree, confirm, whatever word you
(35:12):
want to use, because otherwiseyou will finish last.
Because what I didn't know isthere's about 40,000 diseases
out there and those are just theones we know about, and so many
of them, particularly inautoimmune I'm sure your other
guests mentioned this mimic eachother and there's no definitive
test.
You can't just get a blood testsometimes and know what you
(35:34):
have.
So it's really important totrack all of this and know if
something feels right to you.
Go with your gut.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
I love that.
You know, just chatting aboutthis reminds me of that old
Seinfeld episode.
I don't know if you were aSeinfeld lover, Elaine.
You know she gets labeled asdifficult and then the doctor
won't listen to her.
You know, and I think a lot ofwomen carry that fear forward
and I really like that we'retalking about in your health and
(36:07):
advocating for yourself.
Nice girls finish last.
You have to be willing to.
You know, be difficult ifthat's what it takes, or be
perceived as being difficult,right, Be perceived as being
difficult, because really Idon't I mean, unless you're rude
or something that it isn't, youknow and I think that it's
(36:28):
really important to you.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You've only got the
one body take care of it.
Do what you think is right forit.
I did have one of my peoplethat I interviewed said she'd
never get a second opinion.
She was so afraid that thedoctor would label her as
difficult and put in her recordand that would follow her, you
know, throughout her careermedical career so to speak.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Now I also think this
kind of goes a little hand in
hand that sometimes women willtend to downplay what their
symptoms are.
Yes, and this is so.
This could be so, so dangerousfor us.
So if you could speak a littlebit about that phenomenon, why
do we do this?
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Well, I think we do
it.
I think number one we do do it.
My research has showed thatmany women minimize their
symptoms more than men do,actually, and I think that we do
it because we don't want to.
We don't want to whine, wedon't want to look like
complainers, we want to be thedoctor's friend.
(37:30):
So if we're a good patient,maybe they'll pay more attention
to us, take more time, spend,take more care, whatever, and I
think that that, again, is notnecessarily the right motive.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I agree, Susan, and
I'm wondering did your research
or do you feel that women shouldseek out female doctors?
Do you feel like women have aneasier time talking to a female
doctor or can advocate forthemselves?
Speaker 3 (37:58):
better, and that was
one of that's the question I'm
always asked, and when I beganthe research the jury was still
out.
It didn't seem to matter.
But the latest research doesseem to show that women do
better, particularly if it's afemale disease, if it's
(38:18):
endometriosis or whatever.
Women are better off with otherwomen, with women doctors.
But the caveat to that is menand women doctors have different
practice styles.
A male doctor well, you'll havea shorter appointment time, for
example, with a male doctor.
A woman doctor will spend moretime with you and on the surface
(38:39):
that may sound lovely, but ifyou're in a rush and on your
lunch hour you're going to wantto run in and run out and just
get the COVID shot or whateveryou're going to do.
You're not going to want to runin and run out and just get the
COVID shot or whatever you'regoing to do, you're not going to
want to be so.
It kind of depends also on whatyour time schedule is, what
you're, what you need.
But I and my frankly, my, allof my, my doctors are men and
women, and I have one maledoctor that I talked to for a
(39:03):
long, long time and I haveanother woman doctor that says
hi, how are you?
I?
You, I go fine and we move on.
So it just depends on thedoctor too.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, yeah.
You have to have a good rapportwith them to be able to kind of
get to the heart of thingsagain, like we keep saying, in a
very quick, you know manner.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
It's true.
I've never had anyone I knowsay that they wanted shorter
visits.
Well, I also think, though,knowing all of this information,
susan, that we've talked about,even like Tish with her medical
organizer, when you feel?
(39:46):
More empowered and aware.
I think the timing can befaster.
Yeah, Wouldn't you agree, Tish?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Absolutely,
absolutely.
And then, when you're organizedthat way too, you don't forget,
like you don't leave.
And 20 minutes later oh, Iforgot to tell him about this
like a major symptom, and I'vebeen teaching my kids this for a
while write it all down whenyou walk in.
If things you start to go in adifferent direction, you have it
(40:17):
all in front of you but youknow I wanted to ask this
question, susan, because I knowwe're getting.
I could go.
We could talk all day.
I swear we could talk all day,I swear we could.
But what has this book taughtyou about yourself?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
You know it's taught
me a couple of things.
On a personal note, it's taughtme that I am a writer, and the
reason I say it that way is wemy husband and I were in the
film business.
We made training business filmsfor like, sales, training,
customer service.
I'm the one that wrote thescripts.
We had manuals, workbooks thatwent with them.
(40:51):
I was the one that wrote that.
But I never considered myself awriter, I considered myself a
businesswoman, and it wasn'tuntil I went to UCLA and then
the anthropology department wasso kind to me they probably
thought what's this little womandoing there?
But so they were so nice to meand they kept telling me what a
great writer I was and I thoughtwell, you know, I'll try it.
(41:12):
They.
And when the book came out andand people have learned so much
for it and I'm so happy aboutthat, so the one that it taught
me, almost, I guess, a newidentity, or confirmed an
identity I didn't even know Ihad.
But the other thing it reallydid teach me was to do my own
research.
It's my like I said it earlier,it's my body and I don't want
(41:34):
to take the pill and get a brainbleed.
I, you know, and I I don't wantto take Lexapro if it's going
to, or Lipitor if it's going tointerfere with my blood pressure
.
That's my decision and I'm notwilling to suffer the side
effects.
I mean, it's a.
So I've learned to do myresearch, to do, and if I had
the doctor did not tell me Idon't know that he knew, and
(41:57):
that's why I think it's soimportant to be in charge of
yourself, be in charge of yourown body, and that's what it
taught me.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Do you think that's
your big piece of advice for
women is to take control ofdoing your own research.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Vetting what you're
being told.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Well, that's what
you're saying with your medical
planner.
You're taking control of thevisit because you're helping to
focus it.
And if you go home and look upwhat you've got and the most
important question is, what elsecould this possibly be?
So it's never just one one, oneone disease.
I mean there's a thousand outthere that it could be.
What are the two reallyrealistic possibilities?
(42:38):
I mean, my son could have beenbone cancer.
It's silly and it makes a funnystory.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
But it's good.
Right, you know yeah, yeah,most definitely.
You know, Susan.
We also love to ask our guestswhat their superpower is, and
can you share that?
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Gosh, I never thought
of myself as having a
superpower.
I love the question and I don'twant to just answer off the top
of my head, but I think I wouldsay I have an awful lot of
energy.
That, right at 81, I'm verygrateful for.
At 25, I probably would havereally gotten on your nerves,
(43:16):
but at 81, it's really been agood thing for me.
And the power lifting, theexercise I think it's really
weightlifting.
I've learned that power liftingis a little different.
I don't know, I'm this littleold woman and I can just bench
press a lot, but I enjoy it andI think it's helped me maintain
(43:37):
the exercise, maintain theenergy.
So I think that's what I wouldanswer.
I might want to call you backand give you a different answer.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Think about that.
Think about it would answer.
I might want to call you backand give you a different answer.
Think about it.
We could definitely put it inour show notes.
Well, this has been anincredible discussion today and,
as Tish said, as we kicked itoff, every woman I know needs to
read this book.
Right, tish?
Absolutely this book right, tish, absolutely.
(44:12):
Before we leave today, we'dlike to take a moment to welcome
some new listeners.
We have some new listeners fromTampa, florida, from Ithaca,
new York, and from Sugar Creek,ohio.
So thanks to everybody who'scontinuing to join and hear our
weekly show and discover us onour socials we just want to put
it out there to join the mailinglist.
We send out a monthlynewsletter with a lot of fun and
(44:35):
new information.
You can do that on our websiteat positivelymidlifepodcastcom.
So thanks everyone for joiningus today to learn from Susan to
hear about her book on how toempower you to be in charge of
your body and make the besthealthcare decisions for you.
So till next week, midlifers,have a great week.